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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did

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Speaker 1: Cool Stuff. You're a weekly reminder that when there's bad

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Speaker 1: stuff happening, there's people trying and often succeeding at doing

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Speaker 1: good stuff, either to counteract the bad stuff or just

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Speaker 1: for its own sake. And I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy,

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Speaker 1: dividing the world into good and evil by saying that

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Speaker 1: some things are good and some things are bad. Although

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Speaker 1: I actually feel pretty strongly that some things are good

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Speaker 1: and some things are bad, even though it's not actually

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Speaker 1: black and white, it's all kinds of shades of gray.

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Speaker 1: But some things are good and some things are bad.

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Speaker 1: And some of the things that are good include both

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Speaker 1: my producer and my guest. And my guest is doctor Kabeijota.

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Speaker 2: How are you. I'm good. I'm good, and I'm good.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me on the show again. It's

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Speaker 2: so much fun to be here. I've learned a lot

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Speaker 2: of fun stuff in the past. I've learned a lot

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Speaker 2: in the last episode. This is super fun and important

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Speaker 2: and relevant stuff. So thank you for having me on

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Speaker 2: to put things into my brain.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and actually, the reason that this episode's happening is

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Speaker 1: probably because at some point you reached out to me

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Speaker 1: and we're like, hey, I want to talk about street medics.

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Speaker 1: Wh should I talk to I wasn't the person to

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Speaker 1: talk to you, but I was the person to make

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Speaker 1: the connection.

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Speaker 2: I did know that. Yeah, you're the person I turned

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Speaker 2: too for that. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Also, ontologically good is Sophie Lickterman.

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Speaker 2: Hi?

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Speaker 1: How are you? Hi? I want to explain to you.

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Speaker 1: I think that you all appreciate this. I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about things that are ontologically good, and so, of course

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Speaker 1: my brain said dogs was the next thing. You all

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Speaker 1: know the idea of type one and type two fun,

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Speaker 1: where type one is fun at the time and type

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Speaker 1: two fun is fun later.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like talk about I was not familiar with that,

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Speaker 2: but yeah makes sense. It checks out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like the like if it if it builds character,

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Speaker 1: it's type two fun, right right? I learned this past

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Speaker 1: week about type three fun. More there's a dog. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: thoughts are fun And guess what I have Type four fun.

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Speaker 1: I have two dogs? Oh brag? Or is it type

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Speaker 1: six because it's too three? Anyway? Whatever, I'm good at math.

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Speaker 2: I was told there'd be no math on this podcast.

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Speaker 1: Oh iou to bring you on for a math episode?

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Speaker 2: Sometimes not your guy. That's why I didn't go into pediatrics.

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Speaker 2: There's too much math.

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Speaker 1: Well, all the patients are twelve.

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Speaker 2: That's all right, they're all twelve. Yeah, to call back

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Speaker 2: to last episode, people.

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Speaker 1: In case you missed last episode, in which case you

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Speaker 1: would not understand much of what we're talking about, but

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Speaker 1: you would know, because we're going to repeat it that

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Speaker 1: our audio engineer is named Eva. Hi Eva.

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Speaker 2: Hi Eva, Eva, you're the best. Thank you for cutting

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Speaker 2: out all my ums and making me sound smarter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, when you went on that long tirade about I'm

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Speaker 1: really glad Eva cut that out too.

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Speaker 2: That was a mistake. I deeply regret saying things.

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Speaker 1: About yeah, because that would actually be criminally liable for

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Speaker 1: you to have said, because actually I even agree with you,

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Speaker 1: just for any when he's listening in case it got

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Speaker 1: cut out by censors. It wasn't anything like even edgy

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Speaker 1: or like bad in an oppressive way, just the kind

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Speaker 1: of thing that doesn't look good in court.

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Speaker 2: It was somebody that my good friend here and I

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Speaker 2: both agree should not.

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Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. Anyway. This is part two of a two

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Speaker 1: parter about this modern street medics who have a more

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Speaker 1: This is one of these things that you just like

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Speaker 1: take for granted. It'd be like the history of like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, giving water to people when they're thirsty.

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Speaker 1: You'd be like, right, well, that just is a thing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's always been a thing, right Yeah, as long as

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Speaker 1: I've been going to protest, there's been street medics at them.

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Speaker 1: But actually, as a culture, it came from somewhere, And

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there's precursors. I'm sure there's people doing this

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Speaker 1: in the barricades of the French Revolution and in the

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Speaker 1: you know, uprisings against the Ottoman Empire. And I'm sure

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Speaker 1: I can come up with other rebellions. And I do

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Speaker 1: a pot asks about rebellions and I can't come up

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Speaker 1: with any right now. I'll top of my head, okay,

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Speaker 1: but I'll give a talk about you know, I'll read

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Speaker 1: from my book or something. I ask for questions and

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Speaker 1: somebody be like, what books are you reading right now?

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Speaker 1: Like what books do you really like? And my brain

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Speaker 1: goes blank, and I'm like, what's the book. I've never

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Speaker 1: heard of?

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Speaker 2: A book?

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Speaker 1: I don't understand book.

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Speaker 2: I do a segment on my show where every week

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Speaker 2: I ask at the end the guests not only to

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Speaker 2: plug something about themselves, but then something that's bringing them

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Speaker 2: some joy, some art, some piece of media, some books

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Speaker 2: and films, something that's bringing them some joy. And I

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Speaker 2: don't know why I don't prepare for it, because every

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Speaker 2: week I get the answers from my guests, and then

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Speaker 2: when it comes to me, I'm like pulling for straws

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Speaker 2: for the last second. I really should prepare ahead of time,

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Speaker 2: but I'm never am ready for the thing. And I

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Speaker 2: am generally an enthusiast of things, but when I need

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Speaker 2: to pull that out sometimes it's a real slow, slow process.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So anyway, street medics before I do us. The

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Speaker 1: same group of folks that brought us community health centers

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Speaker 1: brought us the idea of street medics, the idea that

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Speaker 1: wherever there is a police officer beating people over the

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Speaker 1: head with a baton, there should be a medical volunteer

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Speaker 1: ready to treat that head wound. The Medical Committee for

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Speaker 1: Human Rights is also best, as I can trace it.

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Speaker 1: The people who brought us the name street medic as well.

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Speaker 1: Street medics, though are less likely to be medical professionals.

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Speaker 1: Most of them are graduates of either a twenty hour

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Speaker 1: or twenty eight hour training program, which is like about

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Speaker 1: half of what you had to go through, right, Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: for medical training, you had to do like almost twice

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Speaker 1: twenty hours.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I did the undergrad and I did four years

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Speaker 2: of medical school, year of internship, three years of residency,

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Speaker 2: a year of chief residency, a year of liver transplant,

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Speaker 2: three years of GI. So yeah, it's pretty much the same.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, but it's more than twice. Okay, it's more

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Speaker 1: than twice as much.

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Speaker 2: A little bit more, a little bit more than twice.

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Speaker 2: I spent so much time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I believe it. Medical professionals themselves end up taking

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Speaker 1: bridge trainings. We talked about that a little bit last time,

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Speaker 1: to you know, cover the things that you don't get

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Speaker 1: at residencies, but acknowledging like, hey, you do a lot,

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Speaker 1: you know. And one group, Chicago Action Medical, has a

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Speaker 1: street medic handbook that is a really fun, old timey

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Speaker 1: long title is like a modern medic handbook, but the

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Speaker 1: title of this handbook is Chicago Action Medical Street Medic Handbook,

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Speaker 1: containing a large collection of highly esteemed first aid tips

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Speaker 1: and trick namely spreading calm, patient assessment, not Dying Buddy

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Speaker 1: rolls selected by experienced street medics for the use of

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Speaker 1: publicans and protesters in general. Adapted from rose Hit Medical

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Speaker 1: Collective and other sources.

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Speaker 2: Wow, just so good. It rolls off the tongue. That's amazing.

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Speaker 1: I know I'm a sucker for that stuff.

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Speaker 2: Medical professionals are great at branding. Yeah, I've never seen

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Speaker 2: a book title with the word containing in the book title.

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Speaker 1: I think if you go back to Victorian era stuff,

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Speaker 1: you'll find the like subtitle will include that. Right, Okay,

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Speaker 1: but within this book they define street medics with a

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Speaker 1: shorter quote than the title of the book. The definition

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Speaker 1: of a street medic in that book is quote street

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Speaker 1: medics are an international, informal community of people who have

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Speaker 1: provided medical support during the last half century at protests,

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Speaker 1: direct actions, uprisings, and natural disasters that are complicated by

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Speaker 1: police or military targeting of survivors. The model goes back

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Speaker 1: to the sixties, including the idea that you have to

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Speaker 1: be cross trained from being a medical professional to become

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Speaker 1: a street medic. In nineteen sixty eight, there are these

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Speaker 1: huge militant demonstrations in Chicago for the Democratic National Convention.

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Speaker 1: The Mayor of Chicago, Richard Daley, said, quote, they must

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Speaker 1: be planning violence. They brought their own medics, Like, I

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Speaker 1: love that being prepared for someone to hurt you means

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Speaker 1: that you are there to.

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Speaker 2: Look they like it. Why would they have medical professionals

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Speaker 2: if they didn't like getting hurt.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like when people wear like skate helmets because

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Speaker 1: cops shoot people in the head with tear gas canisters

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Speaker 1: and you're like, ah, you came ready for a tussle,

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Speaker 1: and you're like, yeah, because you all have guns.

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Speaker 2: Got we came ready to be beats. That's what the

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Speaker 2: helmet is for.

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Speaker 1: I know, it doesn't even stop bullets.

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Speaker 2: Bastards.

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Speaker 1: From that point onward, street medics knew that they really

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Speaker 1: were a threat to state power. I read a street

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Speaker 1: metic talking about being like, oh, the state is concerned

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Speaker 1: about the fact that we show up preparing to alleviate

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Speaker 1: state violence. When you speed run street medic history, you

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Speaker 1: can accidentally do the same abridgment that people do when

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Speaker 1: they talk about the left in the US in general.

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Speaker 1: You can tell this story that's like, well, there are

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Speaker 1: these big revolutionary movements in groups in the late sixties.

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Speaker 1: They fought against war and for black power and all

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Speaker 1: of that, and then there was like nothing for thirty

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Speaker 1: years and then you get the alter globalization movement at

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Speaker 1: the end of the nineties. There's a big picture way

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Speaker 1: of doing it, basically, where we have protests in the

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Speaker 1: late sixties and protests in the late nineties. That of

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Speaker 1: course is missing thirty years of history. It is true

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Speaker 1: that protest culture left the mainstream starting around the mid seventies.

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Speaker 1: We've covered that extensively on the show. But we've also

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Speaker 1: covered how there's been just so much stuff in the

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Speaker 1: intervening decades, from the anti nuclear movement to food not Bombs,

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Speaker 1: to Earth First to Act Up, to gay liberation, to

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Speaker 1: further struggles for civil rights and just a lot of

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Speaker 1: stuff in the US alone. And there have been street

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Speaker 1: medics the entire time. Because the concept and the people

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Speaker 1: didn't go away, they're less as a specific category. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: at that point though, even though there are people doing

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Speaker 1: street medicking the future friend of the group's Seeds of Peace. Like,

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Speaker 1: one day I'm going to cover this group called Seeds

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Speaker 1: of Piece. They're pretty cool. They're mostly known now for

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Speaker 1: setting up protest kitchens and feeding people. Right if you

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Speaker 1: go to a big demo, there's a decent chance Seeds

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Speaker 1: of Piece is going to be there. Cooking food for everyone.

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Speaker 1: But they used to teach action support all throughout the

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Speaker 1: eighties and nineties, and that included street mediicing as like

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Speaker 1: a you know, in the same way you teach people,

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Speaker 1: here's you cook for people, you'd be like, here's how

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Speaker 1: you flush up people's eyes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But with the rise of street metics as their own

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Speaker 1: unique culture, they stopped incorporating that into those trainings. With

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Speaker 1: the rise of the ault globalization movement of the late

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Speaker 1: nineties and early aughts, the Grand movement of movements, street

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Speaker 1: medics came really exploding back onto the scene, just as

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Speaker 1: police violence against protesters came exploding back onto the scene

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Speaker 1: in the Battle Seattle nineteen ninety nine. This movement of

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Speaker 1: movements used diverse tactics, mostly nonviolent direct action to shut

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Speaker 1: down the World Trade Organization, and street medic collectives and

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Speaker 1: trainers became everywhere and just started spreading all over the place.

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Speaker 1: And at this point I tried to trace the words

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Speaker 1: street medic, and I ran across people saying it in

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Speaker 1: the sixties, or like saying that people said it in

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Speaker 1: the sixties, But it didn't really coalesces its own culture,

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Speaker 1: despite day affinity groups and people doing it right. But

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Speaker 1: around the turn of the century, I know that everyone

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Speaker 1: is like, I really need to know the etymology. I

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Speaker 1: really need to know when it came into practice. But

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Speaker 1: they started getting like routinely called street medics, though action

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Speaker 1: medics was a common enough term too, that has more

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Speaker 1: fallen out of favor.

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Speaker 2: I assumed it came from wartime medics, what they would

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Speaker 2: call the medics working with armed forces overseas, like in Vietnam.

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Speaker 2: You know, But that's based on my knowledge of movies

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Speaker 2: where there's a guy yelling get a medic, and someone

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Speaker 2: comes like running or over with liam to the tick

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Speaker 2: care of someone's like blowing off, like limb or something,

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Speaker 2: and they just transposed that onto violence they were seeing

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Speaker 2: on the streets.

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Speaker 1: That's actually probably right. I would assume that the medic

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Speaker 1: part of that comes from that, because yeah, you're like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: we're in the street, We're in it. Yeah, yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: that makes a lot of sense. And then also, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the Vietnam War protest era, a ton of those

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Speaker 1: people are vets, right, God, just the whiplash effect of

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Speaker 1: being like, I did horrible things or avoided doing horrible

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Speaker 1: things in Vietnam, and then I come back here to

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Speaker 1: try and stop it, and now I'm watching violence happen

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Speaker 1: against me and everyone I know from the That must

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Speaker 1: have been so intense. There's a lot of movies about this,

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Speaker 1: but it's still just an intense thing to think about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is, you know. I just think about this recently,

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Speaker 2: about like that generation, the hippies that were at these protests,

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Speaker 2: and how so many of them have become disappointing adults

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Speaker 2: and older people in regards to the last couple of

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Speaker 2: elections and how they voted and where they swing on things.

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Speaker 2: But I really should not paint the whole generation with

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Speaker 2: the same brush. I don't think that is a fair

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Speaker 2: thing to do, Yeah, especially given what some of them

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Speaker 2: went through, as you mentioned, So, yeah, I think it

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Speaker 2: probably it's really important to keep in mind what they

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Speaker 2: were experiencing at that time, those people who are involved

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Speaker 2: at least.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it's interesting. I think about that a lot,

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Speaker 1: about how there's more multi generational memory currently within progressive

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Speaker 1: and radical movements now than there was when I was

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Speaker 1: coming up, because you have this sort of missing generation

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Speaker 1: of radical and they're not missing. They're there and they're

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Speaker 1: still there. There's a ton of old radicals who are

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Speaker 1: still doing amazing things. But yeah, overall that generation is

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Speaker 1: largely seen as kind of disappointing. A lot of people

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Speaker 1: like sold out really hard. It's like one of the

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Speaker 1: ways that gets talked about. And there's a couple things

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Speaker 1: going on there. I don't know entirely what it comes

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Speaker 1: down to. One is that you started getting some more

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Speaker 1: economic prosperity, so the option of selling out was more available.

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Speaker 1: But on the other hand, you get a lot of

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Speaker 1: it wasn't just like the seventies weren't like a rich time,

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Speaker 1: you know, right, but by the same again into the

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Speaker 1: nineties and stuff, like Western economies are on an upswing.

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Speaker 1: Another part of it is that do you know that

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Speaker 1: diagram of a plane with bullet holes in it? It

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Speaker 1: shows where people, you know, these planes were coming back

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Speaker 1: and they were like, oh, where do our planes get shot?

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Speaker 1: And they could look at where all the planes got shot,

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Speaker 1: and so they started armoring those points, and then it

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Speaker 1: didn't do any good. And it was because they were like, oh,

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Speaker 1: those are the planes that came back. That's actually where

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Speaker 1: planes can get shot and not come down, you know, right.

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Speaker 1: And so a little bit when we look at the

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Speaker 1: like hippie generation and you're like, oh, they all grow

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Speaker 1: up into such boring people, which isn't true, but you know,

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Speaker 1: as an element of truthiness, well you're looking at the

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Speaker 1: surviving people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, survivorship bias. The survivorship bias meme, that totally makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's what I think about with those But

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Speaker 1: I I don't know, I actually should spend more time

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Speaker 1: talking to folks with that generation and what they think

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Speaker 1: about it. And I think part of it also is

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Speaker 1: that you have, like you still only have this kind

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Speaker 1: of smallish percentage of people really involved, like in a

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Speaker 1: really direct way, you know, right, but you did have

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Speaker 1: this larger, broader support for social movements in the late

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Speaker 1: sixties that you didn't have in the eighties.

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Speaker 2: And also, these people don't podcast very well. They're not

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Speaker 2: like amazing guests. Like if you were of an older

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Speaker 2: generation and you look at the younger generations today and

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Speaker 2: all of the people podcasting, you would assume that I

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Speaker 2: think we probably still stand out from the typical population

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Speaker 2: of people are a but you know, we have the

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Speaker 2: loudest voice, we have microphones, and we go out into

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Speaker 2: ear holes, so it seems like we have we may

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Speaker 2: be a little bit more common than we really are totally.

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Speaker 1: It's also you get the bias of like everyone was

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Speaker 1: doing street theater, and you're like, oh, it's probably a

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Speaker 1: hundred different groups in street theater, you know, like there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of groups, but that's not everyone. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: thinking of everyone doing street medicking. One history I found

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Speaker 1: specifically says that three groups really led the boom of

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Speaker 1: street medics at the turn of the millennium. One of

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Speaker 1: them is the Black Cross Health Collective, which I believe

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Speaker 1: was an anarchist organization that came more directly out of Seattle.

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Speaker 1: One was called on the Ground, and I can't find

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Speaker 1: out any more information about them because their name is

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Speaker 1: on the Ground and I can't google it successfully.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like it'd be a little too hard

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Speaker 2: to google Black Cross though, by the way, it sounds

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Speaker 2: like an awesome heavy metal band.

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Speaker 1: Well, okay, so Black Cross I knew as an anarchist organization.

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Speaker 2: Sins.

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Speaker 1: They said that because the Black Cross goes back to

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Speaker 1: the anarchist Red Cross of like nineteen five six Ukraine,

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Speaker 1: where basically all of the like after the nineteen oh

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Speaker 1: five failed revolution of against Russia. This is totally what

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Speaker 1: everyone's excited.

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Speaker 2: To hear about.

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Speaker 1: After this failed revolution in nineteen oh five, all of

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Speaker 1: these prisoners were in jail, right, and so people got

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Speaker 1: together to try and do jail support.

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Speaker 2: And then that.

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Speaker 1: Group continued once the Bolsheviks in after the almost more

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Speaker 1: successful revolution nineteen seventeen, after they started repressing all the

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Speaker 1: anarchists who had been their allies, and so they started

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Speaker 1: as the anarchist Red Cross doing all this work, but

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Speaker 1: they like switched. I think it's blurry exactly how this

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Speaker 1: history came about. They switched to Black Cross, either because

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Speaker 1: the Red Cross was becoming more and more of like

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Speaker 1: a specific thing that was more medical and they were

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Speaker 1: like not trying to be confused, or because like within

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Speaker 1: the Russian Civil War, black was the anarchist color and

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Speaker 1: red was the Bolshevik color. Oh, and so they were like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we're being repressed by the Bolsheviks, were going to use

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Speaker 1: their color. And so Black Cross has been used as

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Speaker 1: like it's usually a prisoner support organization, but then it

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Speaker 1: also in this case was like oh instead of the

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Speaker 1: Red Cross for the Black Cross, Like yeah, yeah, anyway,

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Speaker 1: and also you're breaking my rule. I have my maxim

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Speaker 1: that anyone says anything and someone says, oh, that would

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Speaker 1: be a good band name. They're always wrong, that's my rule. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but you're right, I'm wrong. Black Cross would be a

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Speaker 1: really good metal band name. It would be really good.

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Speaker 2: You would have to spell it with a K though.

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Speaker 2: That's the one thing. It'd be crossed with a KNA.

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Speaker 1: See you lose me though, because.

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Speaker 2: I lost you there. Sorry damn it.

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Speaker 1: But it's a specific thing where like anytime anyone replaces

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Speaker 1: a C with a K, I'm like, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I know.

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Speaker 2: I hear you, I hear. I'm not saying it's the

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Speaker 2: right choice.

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Speaker 1: I'm just saying it would be the choice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the record company would say, no, you have to

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Speaker 2: have a K.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, yea, and the K is backwards.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly what I was gonna say, Like corn R K,

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Speaker 2: the R is backwards, the same concept there.

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Speaker 1: And then because they're terrible, like cheesy teenage anarchists, they

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Speaker 1: put an A in the O of Cross, so it's

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Speaker 1: actually just his black crass.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's say, what is black crass?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Cross, we just wanted to put a We wanted

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Speaker 1: to a our circles.

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Speaker 2: We got to get back to that one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Well, we're gonna keep workshopping this. You're

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Speaker 1: sending you a guitar and some notes for the first album.

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Speaker 2: Let's do it all, right.

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Speaker 1: So there's Black Cross Health Collective on the ground. And

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Speaker 1: then the one that I can find the most information about,

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Speaker 1: partly because there are many of the people who wrote

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Speaker 1: a lot of the documents that people use is the

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Speaker 1: Colorado Street Medics. This was started by that guy, Doc Rosen,

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Speaker 1: and Doc Rosen he's our acupuncturist kung fu artists who

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Speaker 1: it turns out he was one of those super activist

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Speaker 1: types who's kind of a wingnut who everyone either loves

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Speaker 1: or hates, or somehow people did both at once. He

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Speaker 1: died from a brain hemorrhage in two thousand and seven,

395
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Speaker 1: and there are a lot of remembrances of him that

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Speaker 1: people have posted. He'd been taken in as a relative

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Speaker 1: of the Lakota Nation and given full membership of the

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Speaker 1: American Indian Movement, which is a very high honor for

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Speaker 1: a non Indigenous person, and the reasoning was basically, well,

400
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Speaker 1: he's a veteran of Wounded Knee. He was shot there

401
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Speaker 1: caring for us during Wounded Knee. He became the first

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Speaker 1: registered acupuncturist in Colorado, and he brought sixteen street medics

403
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Speaker 1: to Seattle in nineteen ninety nine to tie in with

404
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Speaker 1: the Direct Action Network, which we talked about on a

405
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Speaker 1: different show, and just to follow his story to the close,

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Speaker 1: Doc Rosin this sort of interesting man. I straight up

407
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Speaker 1: don't know where I would have fallen on the like

408
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Speaker 1: this man or hate this man beause not boring. I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have been bored by this man. That's how I feel.

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Speaker 1: Doc Rosin was an anarchist for forty years. He spent

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Speaker 1: his final decades training people and traveling around the world

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Speaker 1: to help people. When a tsunami hit Thailand, he went

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Speaker 1: with a group of Native American doctors and EMTs to

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Speaker 1: help out there. His own work there was largely to

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Speaker 1: help people, especially kids, fight PTSD, and he did this

416
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Speaker 1: by literally being a clown. He would perform magic tricks

417
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Speaker 1: for kids in the tsunami zone. Real Patch Adams, I

418
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Speaker 1: know at some point I'm gonna have to talk about

419
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Speaker 1: in the show just because of West Virginia, but I

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Speaker 1: don't know enough to know how I feel about Patch

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Speaker 1: Adams going into it. I just straight up don't know,

422
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Speaker 1: right He also wasn't afraid. He's not young when he's

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Speaker 1: going and doing this stuff. He goes and he helps

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Speaker 1: move dead bodies because it's a nice thing to be

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Speaker 1: able to do for people if it's their.

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Speaker 2: Relative is yeah, not make them do it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And showing up in building houses. And when he died,

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Speaker 1: he was buried on the Rosebud Reservation in South Dakota,

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Speaker 1: and that was an honor that was granted to him

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Speaker 1: because he was an adopted member of the Lakota tribe.

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Speaker 1: And I would bet money that I have met him

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Speaker 1: and don't remember it. I know I was at several

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Speaker 1: of the protests. When I'm reading about like just literally

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Speaker 1: where he was and what he was doing, I'm like,

435
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,720
Speaker 1: I was living in Denver and working alongside the American

436
00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 1: Indian movement. Like this makes me sound like I was

437
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,800
Speaker 1: doing more than just being like a grunt work protester.

438
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 1: I was a grunt work protester when we were like,

439
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 1: who's gonna help blockade the following street. I would never

440
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,560
Speaker 1: do crime. We all got permits to whatever. It was

441
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,040
Speaker 1: a long time ago. I used to break laws. I

442
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,359
Speaker 1: would never do such a thing now in the world.

443
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,520
Speaker 1: Interruptive lower capital and colonialism and what they're talking about.

444
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,960
Speaker 2: Not something I could see. Yeah, I'm trying to google

445
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,719
Speaker 2: the picture of Doc Rosen, and I'm seeing a lot

446
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 2: of doctor Rosen's, But I don't think any of these

447
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 2: doctor Rosens are the Doc Rosen, So.

448
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,920
Speaker 1: I don't we didn't find a photo of him.

449
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not finding one right now.

450
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:43,720
Speaker 1: I suspect that it was his vibe to not be photographed, right. Yeah,

451
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,119
Speaker 1: that is my guess, based on the fact that, like,

452
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 1: I looked at so many remembrances of him, partly because

453
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:49,720
Speaker 1: I was like, do I know this guy?

454
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 2: You know? Yeah, But I think it's almost like a

455
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:58,399
Speaker 2: very interesting person. My relationship to acupuncture is a little

456
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,720
Speaker 2: bit complicated because on one hand, it doesn't seem to

457
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 2: have a lot of downsides if it's done correctly and

458
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 2: in a sterile way. But I think there isn't great

459
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,640
Speaker 2: evidence for its use for the most part. If there is,

460
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 2: it's for chronic pain issues. I got in trouble once

461
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,879
Speaker 2: on my podcast for somebody once mentioned acupuncture in passing,

462
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 2: and I got a lot of messages from people who

463
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 2: were upset that I didn't push back more on it

464
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 2: because there's not a lot of great scientific evidence for

465
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 2: its use. These days, most of it has been disproven.

466
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 2: I think there's still a role for it in very

467
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,639
Speaker 2: specific cases, things like ibs it seems to maybe have

468
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 2: a little bit of benefit and chronic pain issues not great,

469
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 2: but I think there's some role for it. So there's

470
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 2: a part of me that's like, I really wonder what

471
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 2: he was providing, But I have to assume when he's

472
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,359
Speaker 2: in these emergency situations, when he's acting as as street medic,

473
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 2: he's doing the other things that a street medic would do,

474
00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 2: cleaning out wounds and that sort of thing, taking care

475
00:22:58,840 --> 00:22:59,400
Speaker 2: of injuries.

476
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 1: I fully expect that to be the case. I have

477
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 1: never in my life seen people attempt to do acupuncture

478
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 1: in the streets at a demonstration. And my theory is

479
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 1: that he was heavily involved in writing the stuff that

480
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,440
Speaker 1: street medics use, and the stuff that street medics use

481
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,160
Speaker 1: is very evidence based and is very like, yeah.

482
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,400
Speaker 2: Right, proven over years of you know, of care.

483
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so that's my guess. I would guess that

484
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 1: his it's almost more just that it's interesting that his

485
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,680
Speaker 1: there's a lot of like alternative medical practitioners who become

486
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: street medics. There is both a ton of like nurses.

487
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 1: I guess when I think of the street metics, I

488
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 1: personally know this is anecdotal at this point. I know

489
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 1: a lot of like nurses, hospital workers in sort of

490
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,120
Speaker 1: almost a lay worker way. I don't know if that's

491
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 1: the right terminology, you know, but like and on also

492
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 1: like herbalists and things, right, yeah, but that's a separate

493
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,960
Speaker 1: kind of thing beyond like, I don't know, crossing a

494
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 1: bridge and having a nervous breakdown because there's cops on

495
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 1: both sides of you. And someone is like, you want

496
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: to smell this lavender, and I'm like, I do want

497
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 1: to smell that lavender, dude, that does sound nice right

498
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 1: right now?

499
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 2: You know, it is interesting because I guess I can't

500
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 2: complain too much about, you know, the type of background

501
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,719
Speaker 2: that people are providing, because I, as a medical doctor,

502
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 2: am not providing a background myself there. I actually think

503
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 2: you'd be very interesting to see a medical school and

504
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 2: maybe one of your listener knows about this, and I

505
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 2: just don't, but to see like a medical university, a

506
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 2: training center that has rotations for medical students in the

507
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 2: street medicine, I think that would be an amazing thing.

508
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,199
Speaker 2: I don't know in this current political climate how that

509
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 2: would be accepted by most medical schools, which tend to

510
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 2: be conservative, but you know, it's an interesting thing. I

511
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 2: would love to see doctors be more involved these days,

512
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 2: because it sounds like from what I've heard so far

513
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 2: in these episodes, it started out with medical doctors and

514
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 2: over time shifted to a framework that's enacted by other

515
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:06,719
Speaker 2: healthcare professionals. I would like for doctors to remain involved. Yeah,

516
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 2: in this.

517
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: I am also under that impression that it has shifted

518
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 1: sort of a de professionalization, but not a complete one.

519
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 1: They're still very specific, like you know, if you just

520
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,400
Speaker 1: show up and are like, ah, I know, some first date,

521
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 1: I'm a street medic. The other street medics like it's

522
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: a specific culture, and they're going to be like, yeah, yeah,

523
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: where'd you go to your twenty hour? You know?

524
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 2: Yeah? Right?

525
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 1: And much like as a podcaster, if I just showed

526
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 1: up into a conversation and didn't pivot to ads, everyone

527
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 1: would know.

528
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: Are you really a podcaster? Not at all?

529
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: Here's some ads and we're back. I find it fascinating

530
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 1: because in some ways it's the de professionalization of street medics,

531
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 1: but in other ways it's almost not the professionalization but

532
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: the like codification of what street medics are, right, because

533
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: the first ones were like, oh, we're doctors, we should

534
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 1: just you know, if you've worked in an er, you

535
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: probably know what to do when someone gets hit in

536
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,239
Speaker 1: ahead of a baton, as my guests, I don't know

537
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 1: more or less, but you might not know how to

538
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 1: handle the police who are currently hitting the person at

539
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 1: the baton, right, you know.

540
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 2: And to work without the stuff we have in the hospital.

541
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,120
Speaker 2: It's a very big difference working in a hospital where

542
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 2: we have all our equipment that we know when they're

543
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 2: accessible to, and have all the access to imaging and

544
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 2: that sort of thing. It's a very different kettle of

545
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 2: fish than being out on the street and not having

546
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 2: any of that stuff or very little of it.

547
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: No, it makes sense. I mean, like the single tool

548
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 1: that I think mos street medics are using the most

549
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: is literally a squeeze bottle of water. There is actually

550
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 1: a thing. There's a difference. Street medicine is different than

551
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 1: street mediicaing. And I learned this by trying to google

552
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: street medicine or whatever and finding lots of results about

553
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: providing healthcare to homeless folks. M I never know whether

554
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: I should say homeless folks or folks are on house.

555
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: But I only know is that one of my social

556
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 1: worker friends that I talked to about this a lot

557
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 1: who work specifically with on house folks or homeless folks,

558
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: was like, whenever I try to refer to people as

559
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: on house, They're like, man, I'm homeless, you know, right, right,

560
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 1: So I don't know if I'm using the current prefer

561
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: terminology or whatever, but yeah, so street medicine is actually more,

562
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: but it's actually still very similar, right because you're like

563
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: going out into the streets and then like doing medicine

564
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: where people are living, which is under bridges and shit.

565
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

566
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: After Seattle nineteen ninety nine, tens of thousands of protesters

567
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: were trained in the basics doing the twenty hour things,

568
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 1: and often many of those people go beyond the basics.

569
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: And in the first five years or so the Alter

570
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 1: Globalization movement, people learn how to treat wounds inflicted by

571
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: the police, but they also learned how to spread calm

572
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: and respond to crisis because actually, in a weird similar way,

573
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,199
Speaker 1: where like the first doctors who went down were like

574
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: people kind of look be like, oh, there's a doctor here,

575
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: we're okay, right h or like ah, there's a person

576
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: over thirty here, you know whatever. A lot of the

577
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 1: stuff I have read from street medics and talked to

578
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,439
Speaker 1: street medics is that like one of your roles if

579
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: you're a marked street medic, is you're there to be like, hey,

580
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 1: we're okay, Like hey, whatever comes, we got it, you know.

581
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: And street medics from this era went on to work

582
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 1: all over the world. More than a few made their

583
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: way to Palestine, for example. I've talked with a bunch

584
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: of folks who've gone there at various points over the

585
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: past couple decades, and more than a few have entered

586
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: the medical profession since. And so it's almost like how

587
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 1: people end up in, especially nursing in my experience, but

588
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: lots of other medical professions.

589
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 2: This. You know, if I'm on an application board for

590
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 2: a medical school, which I have been in the past,

591
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 2: or if I'm working on a residency program and looking

592
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 2: at applicants, which again I've done a lot of, that

593
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 2: would be huge. If I saw someone had gone abroad,

594
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 2: and you do see this and worked abroad or been

595
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 2: a street medic, that would cover a lot of sins

596
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: on an application. If their GPA, if their scores, if

597
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 2: their publications and scientific journals weren't as strong as another candidate,

598
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 2: I would still say there is, and not just to me.

599
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people would. There is a

600
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 2: need in a room for someone like this in our

601
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 2: medical program. I think that would be awesome.

602
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense because you're like, well, this person

603
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: clearly cares about doing this thing.

604
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, right, yeah, and they have experience that

605
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 2: most people don't have. Every medical school applicant has a

606
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 2: certain amount of experiences that you know, but that's a

607
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 2: different one. I think that if you're listening and you're

608
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 2: on an application committee somewhere, if you're in a medical school,

609
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 2: look for those things, please. Those are the kind of

610
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 2: people we want. Hell yeah.

611
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: Street medic collectives started cropping up everywhere because trainers like

612
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: Doc Rosen would travel around city to city and teach

613
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: people what they needed in order to set them up.

614
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: So not just train you to be a street medic,

615
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: but also train you to become a trainer. The trainings

616
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: to become trainers are much longer than the twenty hour trainings,

617
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: and they are also formalized, but they're also constantly shifting

618
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: and developing as police tactics change as best practices around. Like,

619
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: you know, getting consent from patients is like probably always complicated,

620
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: but getting consent from patients during a riot is like extra.

621
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 2: Weird, you know. Yeah.

622
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: Street medics in Ferguson during the uprising in twenty fourteen

623
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: gave twenty minute trainings like four times a day, just

624
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: teaching people like here's how you I flush chemical weapons.

625
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: You know, here are some basic psychological first aid. Street

626
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: medics are consistently one of the better organized groups of

627
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: people at any demonstrations, and so they end up taking

628
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: on additional roles, perhaps too many. I have been prone

629
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: to talking shit on street medics as a culture before

630
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: in my life. Since they're marked with red crosses made

631
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: from tape, that's the usual thing, right, It's like a

632
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: red duct tape cross. They're just like more likely to

633
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: be calm in any given situation than the average protester, literally,

634
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: just because they've done it more often. And they are

635
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: also see being calm as one of their jobs. And

636
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: it's interesting because that's actually what I do as a

637
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: protester these days, is I'm like mostly there to just

638
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: be like, hey, everyone walk, we don't have to run.

639
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 1: We've got this. I also always know where all the

640
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: exits are. I don only get mass arrested. Yeah, yeah,

641
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: I've had it happen to me twice. Never want to

642
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: do it again. Disaster relief got added to the roster

643
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: of crises that street medics would respond to, most famously

644
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: with the Common Ground Clinic in New Orleans after Hurricane

645
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 1: Katrina in two thousand and five, which we've covered on

646
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: this show before. But you can find report backs from

647
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: American street medics sailing into Haiti and Thailand, or respond

648
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: to crises wherever there's a direct action mutual aid organization.

649
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: There are street medics, and they're not an American phenomenon

650
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: specifically either. Although I know less about street medics in

651
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: other countries despite having been to a few spirited demonstrations

652
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: in other countries myself, I have seen slightly different street

653
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: medic cultures. One of the core principles of street medicking

654
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 1: and I think this is like a medicine thing, but

655
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: I don't actually know, is the do no harm thing

656
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: that's like part of the whole deal.

657
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's usually part of some hippocratic or variation of

658
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 2: it oath that people.

659
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: Take is the idea of that, don't make the situation worse,

660
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: don't provide treatment that's likely to fail, make everything worse.

661
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:01,959
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of interpretations to it, but

662
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 2: one of them is if you don't know what you're doing,

663
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 2: then you shouldn't do something. If you're experimenting on a patient,

664
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 2: for example, that's another interpretation of it. You shouldn't be

665
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 2: doing that if you don't have their consent to do so.

666
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 2: If there's a better option to do so, okay, don't

667
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 2: muck with things that don't need to be mucked with.

668
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 2: No when to stand back and not do something. That's

669
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 2: a big part of medicine. As you get trained more

670
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 2: and more in medicine, you start to feel like everything

671
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 2: is a nail and you're a hammer, and you want

672
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: to do something. You want to operate, you want to

673
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 2: get involved, you want to treat with a medication. Sometimes

674
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 2: the answer is to say no, let's stop, well, let's wait,

675
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 2: let's watch, let's figure out what to do. So that's

676
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 2: kind of another sort of interpretation.

677
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 1: But don't give out antibiotics like candy.

678
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 2: Yes exactly. That's another good point. Yeah, which we still

679
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 2: do because a lot of it because patients expect that

680
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 2: people want that, But we have to be the one

681
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 2: sometimes to say, look, you're not going to be happy

682
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 2: about this, but I'm not going to prescribe you this

683
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 2: medication you asked for because it's not the right medication

684
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 2: for you.

685
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

686
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 2: It's been our job to explain why that is. Yeah,

687
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 2: as opposed to just saying no and being patronizing about it.

688
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 2: It's our job to explain why we don't feel that

689
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: certain thing is necessary and should be with help.

690
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: Right, No, that makes sense, that's yeah, you shouldn't prescribe

691
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: the wrong medications to people. That makes sense to me.

692
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 2: Right.

693
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: There are some knock on effects from do No Harm

694
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: that impact kind of one of the moral questions that

695
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 1: street medics talk about amongst themselves a lot, specifically, who

696
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: do you provide care for? They provide care for protesters

697
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: and bystanders for certain do they provide care for fascists

698
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: or police? And this is a contentious issue, and I've

699
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: talked to a couple of my street medic friends about this,

700
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: and I've gotten a couple different answers, but I've gotten

701
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: related answers. Do you use a specific and strange example

702
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: the time that I learned that this was a contentious thing.

703
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: I was at the Yellow protests in France the number

704
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: of years ago. It was a spirited protest, we will

705
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: call it, and police are throwing tear gas and protesters

706
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: are throwing other things at police, and I'm like, man,

707
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: I don't want to go forward attention. I wish I

708
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: wasn't here. And the Yellow US protests were an interesting

709
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: set of protests. Did you hear much about these when

710
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 1: they're happening.

711
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:20,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I saw a little bit on the news,

712
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:21,879
Speaker 2: but I don't know much more.

713
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: Largely, these are populist revolts. Basically, they were like, you're

714
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: making it too expensive to live, so we're going to riot,

715
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: which is a very French thing to do. But this

716
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 1: means that at the beginning of this, because populism is

717
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: not a left wing thing or a right wing thing,

718
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 1: it's just a thing, the far right tried to capture

719
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: the spirit of the protests and turn into fascistic directions.

720
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 1: According to the best analyses I've read of this and

721
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 1: some conversations from people on the ground, this attempt by

722
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 1: the right wing was stopped because anti fascists win in

723
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,359
Speaker 1: the protests would just like drive out the Nazis, be like,

724
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: you all are Nazis, you're not part of this protest.

725
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: We are going to drive you out. So we're marching

726
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 1: along and all of a sudden, people are yelling shit

727
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: in French, and they're not yelling umbagatsuvuple or Jenna Parlapofrance says,

728
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: so I have no idea what they're saying, because those

729
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 1: are the only two things. I lived in France for

730
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: a month and all I knew how to do is

731
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: order bagas and say I don't speak French. People loved me.

732
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: It was the south of France where no one speaks

733
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: English anyway, whatever, So I have no idea what people

734
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,919
Speaker 1: are yelling. And I see this guy running bleeding into

735
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:26,839
Speaker 1: a park, and I see medics running after him trying

736
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 1: to treat him, and then other medics, I think, start

737
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 1: fistfighting those medics about the whole thing. And what it

738
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,320
Speaker 1: was was that a well known far right influencer got punched,

739
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: Richard Spencer type got punched, and some medics went to

740
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: treat him, and other medics were like, don't treat him,

741
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 1: we punched him for a reason, and go no. I'm curious.

742
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 2: I have a lot of thoughts.

743
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: I'm going to get into more of the answers that

744
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 1: other people have told me, but I want to hear

745
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:53,800
Speaker 1: your thoughts.

746
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 2: I have taken care of a lot of people in

747
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 2: the past that I don't like, but that's not my job,

748
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 2: right My job is not to like them in that

749
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 2: way and let that affect me. I am not going

750
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 2: to that would make me like a cop. I'm not

751
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 2: going to treat someone bad because they're a cop and

752
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 2: they're my patient. I'm not going to treat someone bad

753
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 2: because they're a convict and they're my patient. That's not

754
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 2: where I'm there to do. And this is something that

755
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:19,919
Speaker 2: I feel kind of strongly about and bothers me when

756
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 2: I hear the same way, like you'll hear like a

757
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 2: nurse every now and then we'll say, oh, I put

758
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,879
Speaker 2: the big IV in him because he was a real dick,

759
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 2: and I'm like, that's not what we're here to do.

760
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 2: And it bothers me the same way if someone were

761
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 2: to say I didn't want to take care of this

762
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 2: person because they were on the opposite side of the

763
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 2: protest to me, and I know that's people are going

764
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 2: to be mad about that, but that's just not how

765
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 2: I that's not why I went into this field. Yeah,

766
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 2: I would have been a policeman if I wanted to

767
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 2: pick a side like that, And so I feel pretty

768
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 2: strongly about that. But that being said, when I did

769
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 2: my episode on Street Medics and I had a guest

770
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 2: on who is this street medic? And that question came

771
00:36:58,440 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 2: up and I said, have you ever had to take

772
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 2: care of a cop before who got injured? Their response

773
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 2: was part of the earliest training you get is those

774
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 2: people are trying to hurt you, So you don't want

775
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 2: to put yourself in those situations where you can get

776
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 2: hurt in that. Yeah, I understand that if there is

777
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 2: a threat to you as a medical provider, you have

778
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 2: to take care of yourself first. You have to put

779
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 2: on your own mask in the airplane before you take

780
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 2: care of others. I get that, But in general, if

781
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: I'm there in any capacity that's medical, which generally I

782
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 2: would be, I have to be responsible for helping wherever

783
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:32,919
Speaker 2: I can.

784
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense to me, And I

785
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 1: think your argument around like the point of being a

786
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: I don't turn people away medical provider is not turning

787
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: people away. This makes a lot of sense to me.

788
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: The two arguments that I hear from street medics about

789
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: this one is and this one I have seen and

790
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:53,959
Speaker 1: talked to people who experienced this over and over again.

791
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: It is dangerous to put your hands on a cop, sure, yeah,

792
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: and they will not let you, and the infrastructure that

793
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 1: they are there, Like, I actually think that there is

794
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 1: and maybe I'm wrong about this, I think there is

795
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: a fundamental difference between a higher level of care or

796
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: like a clinic or a place that people are going to, right,

797
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 1: like a hospital, and a street demonstration in that like

798
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: I would think it's messed up if cops came into

799
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 1: the hospital, or like I'm bleeding and you're like, wow,

800
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 1: we don't like what your job is, right right. I'm

801
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: sure I could come up with the counterexamples of like

802
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: Mussolini bleeding or something, right, but like street medics have

803
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 1: learned the hard way. And the interesting thing about this

804
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 1: is that the reason I see this a lot is

805
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,359
Speaker 1: that even though street medics go and like learn like, hey,

806
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 1: we're here to help this side, street medics all the time,

807
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,280
Speaker 1: if someone is injured, including people on the other side,

808
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: go and try and help that person. Yeah, because like

809
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: that actually does seem to be the stronger thing. But

810
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: then the other argument that I've talked to someone about

811
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: is that if you do no harm policies to not

812
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 1: make the situation worse, and that cop is literally there

813
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 1: to hurt people, are you making the situation worse? I'm asking.

814
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to say I know the answer to this,

815
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,399
Speaker 1: but are you making the situation worse by helping them

816
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: get getting the armed person back into the fight against.

817
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 2: Okay, I think it's a great point. This is a

818
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 2: really interesting talking to me, But I don't feel like

819
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 2: you're gonna go help somebody get back up and get

820
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 2: right back into hurting people. That person's removed essentially from

821
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 2: the point the field of battle or contest at that point.

822
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 2: And I also want to make it very clear I

823
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 2: am not for healthcare professionals being abused in any context.

824
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 2: And healthcare professionals get hurt even in the hospitals. Nurses

825
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 2: get attacked all the time. I have no threshold for that,

826
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 2: like I and not even that. Yeah, like when doctors

827
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 2: will tell me like how sad they feel after a

828
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 2: patient yelled at them, and then those situations, I also

829
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:56,280
Speaker 2: feel the emotional verbal abuse that healthcare professionals get I

830
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 2: don't stand for Yeah, like, we shouldn't have to put

831
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 2: up with that. It's too much of that. We should

832
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,399
Speaker 2: never have to deal with that. We can give people care,

833
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 2: someone else can take care of that person. If someone

834
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 2: is berating you or making you feel less, that's not

835
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 2: something you need to be involved with. I think in

836
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 2: an emergency situation, I think being there to assist everyone

837
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,879
Speaker 2: is a goal that we in the healthcare professional have

838
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 2: to continue to believe if we don't. I hate the

839
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 2: slippery slope argument, but that's one of the things that

840
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 2: makes the job special.

841
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 1: Yeah.

842
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 2: You know, when I was a kid watching mash in,

843
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 2: Like there's a scene where like the Korean soldier gets

844
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,240
Speaker 2: wheeled in and the surgeons want to help the Korean

845
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 2: soldier who's dying, and then like the military people come

846
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 2: in and they get mad. You know, when I was

847
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 2: a kid, I didn't root for the military people to say, yeah,

848
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 2: I'm rooting for the doctors to save them. And that's

849
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 2: a big part of what inspires people to be good doctors,

850
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,760
Speaker 2: and I think we have to keep that focus. Now

851
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,439
Speaker 2: this is all being said, Like, if there's a guy

852
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 2: with a who seems like he might shoot you try

853
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 2: to help him. Yes, you do not need to do that.

854
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,280
Speaker 2: You do not need to get involved. I completely understand

855
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 2: that concept. We should be safe.

856
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I suspect. I'm not a street medic. I'm not

857
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 1: a medical professional. I'm like, I've had some stop the

858
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 1: bleed trainings and some like self defense trainings, and I

859
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 1: could imagine a situation in which, like, because literally in

860
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: my mind, when someone's no longer a threat, they're no

861
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: longer a threat. And if I could hypothetical land here,

862
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 1: someone tries to kill me, I shoot them. I have

863
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: neutralized the threat. They are not dead. I will then

864
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: try to save their life. Yes, like I wouldn't sleep

865
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:36,919
Speaker 1: at night if I didn't.

866
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,240
Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely, these are things I run through my mind,

867
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 2: by the way, when I'm like, out, would I go

868
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 2: to a protest? When he went to the No King's protest?

869
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 2: These are things that I think about, Like, part of

870
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 2: my brain is always like, I'm very creative when it

871
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 2: comes to things that can go terribly wrong. It's part

872
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 2: of what makes me a good doctor. So I'm like

873
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 2: analyzing every situation to see, like what could go wrong,

874
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 2: And that goes for both sides of the thing. But

875
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 2: My biggest fear in those things actually these days isn't

876
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 2: even necessarily the police. It's some sort of far right actor,

877
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 2: someone driving a car through a protest something like that.

878
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 2: Those are the things that concern me the most, and

879
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 2: those can affect both sides obviously, but those are Yeah,

880
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 2: so I'm constantly thinking about these situations and how that

881
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 2: might play out, like and so another the reason why

882
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 2: I don't get into fights even if I've been a

883
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 2: situation where I've been really upset by somebody, because in

884
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,399
Speaker 2: my brain, I'm like, if I do happen to win

885
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 2: this fight in the very rare situation, I don't put

886
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 2: myself in situations where I like, but there's very rare

887
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 2: situations where I have a conflict with somebody and it

888
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 2: escalates to like words that get raised, and I'm like,

889
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,400
Speaker 2: what's the point of finding this person? If I happen

890
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 2: to win, right, then I have to take care of them.

891
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, uh huh, because.

892
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 2: I'm like, I can't just like run, beat the person

893
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 2: up and then run. So it is pervasive in my

894
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 2: brain thinking about these things a lot. So anyway, sorry,

895
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 2: That's why I'm passionate about it, because I think about

896
00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 2: it a lot.

897
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 1: I specifically, as I was writing this, I was like, Oh,

898
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 1: this is going to turn into an interesting conversation. I

899
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: think that that is a It's interesting to see the

900
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: experience of being in demonstrations. As a medic, I've seen

901
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: understanding police psychology and specifically their desire to control any

902
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: given situation, like while there at work, not like every

903
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,280
Speaker 1: moment that a cop is walking through their life, although

904
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 1: I suspect whatever, I have a negative opinion about policing

905
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: as a profession, but like specifically in demonstrations, entire purpose

906
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: is to be in control of every situation, and that

907
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: is the single most important thing. If people get hurt,

908
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 1: that is less important than being in control, and probably

909
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: in the cop brain, in their mind, that is a

910
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 1: good thing, as an okay thing, because control is what

911
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: will allow the situation to pacify.

912
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 2: Right right.

913
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: But understanding that that police desire this level of control

914
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:54,240
Speaker 1: and will lash out at anything to make that possible

915
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: is really important and why street medics have learned the

916
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,320
Speaker 1: hard way. Whenever it seems life or death, I have

917
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 1: always seen street medics intervene, but it's like, you're not

918
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 1: eye flushing the fascists, You're not eye flushing the cops

919
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 1: you might respond to gunshot wounds, you know, Yeah, right.

920
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: I think it's just a really interesting There's a conversation

921
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: where I'm like, man, there's like all kinds of directions

922
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 1: and blurrinesses, and I know.

923
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,280
Speaker 2: There's gonna be people who are going to take issue

924
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 2: with what I said, And I totally get it. They've

925
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 2: been in situations that I have not. I have not

926
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 2: had to be in a situation where I've had to

927
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 2: take care of a cop being injured on the street, right,

928
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 2: I mean in the hospital definitely, but not like on

929
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 2: the street. So I get it. It's a different kettleficsion,

930
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 2: I can't judge somebody for some of the stuff they're

931
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 2: doing when they're out trying to help people.

932
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, So this is one of the core things I

933
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: was excited to talk to about. So I really appreciate

934
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: your viewpoint on this.

935
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

936
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: Most of the time in protests, street medics don't really

937
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 1: do much besides stand around and hand out sunscreen and

938
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,760
Speaker 1: band aids. Other times, the police riot and there's dozens

939
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: or hundreds of injuries. Marked medics are targeted for a

940
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: rest and violence, and this is a thing that comes

941
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: up again and again. It's basically like, Okay, I had

942
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: this friend who is an EMT, and he was also

943
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 1: a punk kid and not white and and all these

944
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 1: things that made the police not really be a big

945
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: fan of him. And he had just gotten his EMPT

946
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 1: license and he was working for the city, and I

947
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 1: believe in that city, in that place, that meant if

948
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: an accident happened, he was not only allowed to but

949
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,720
Speaker 1: required to give the police orders if it was around

950
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 1: a medical situation.

951
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've heard that.

952
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: A car accident happens outside my friend's house. He runs

953
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 1: outside empt bag in tow. Cops are already on the

954
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: scene and they won't let him a minister care. He

955
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 1: tries to come in and say, I am licensed as

956
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,919
Speaker 1: an EMT, this is now my scene. I am now

957
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: doing this thing. And the patient died as the cops

958
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 1: just stood around, and he came in crying and was like,

959
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 1: I've lost the first patient.

960
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 2: He didn't lose them, the cops lost them. No.

961
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 1: I agree, God, yeah totally. And so being a marked

962
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: medic just means nothing to police, except sometimes it means

963
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 1: that you should be targeted for arrest in violence because

964
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 1: the people who are seen as necessary for the functioning

965
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 1: of the protest are singled out and targeted, including National

966
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,720
Speaker 1: Lawyers Guild observers are often targeted for arrest. I remember

967
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 1: one time being at a demonstration watching our lawyer who

968
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 1: is the police liaison, who was just wearing her nice

969
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: lawyer suit and was just like, Hi, I'm here to

970
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: negotiate the situation between you and us, and you know,

971
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: and they just handcuffed her and throw in the back

972
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 1: of the police van pretty much right away. And because

973
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 1: of this targeting, more and more street medics run unmarked,

974
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: so that if the police attempt to arrest everyone involved

975
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: in the process infrastructure, there are still people with medical

976
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 1: skills and supplies on hand.

977
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've also heard that. I've heard doctors who will

978
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 2: always wear a fanny pack, for example, whenever they go

979
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 2: to one of these protests, because when they were working

980
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 2: as a medical professional there to support they felt like

981
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 2: their crotch was being targeted by like cut those rubber bullets,

982
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 2: like the bean bag guns and that sort of thing.

983
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 2: So now they always wear like a fanny pack there

984
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 2: just to help protect themselves.

985
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 1: I just not get shot in the junk. Oh my god. Yeah,

986
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 1: that's real lord, one of the more interesting and kind

987
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: of in a negative way of developments of Well, actually,

988
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 1: before we talk about anything negative, I want to talk

989
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: about something positive. I want to talk about the fact

990
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 1: that it was a positive part of the fact that way,

991
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 1: it adds that I have an income.

992
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's super positive. Yeah.

993
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 1: My dog loves eating food. It's amazing. He eats food

994
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: every day.

995
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 2: You should like it too.

996
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 1: I also like eating food, not dog.

997
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 2: Food, but like you know, you food. You should enjoy

998
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 2: eating that. You deserve to eat that.

999
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: I agree. And you all can either listen to ads

1000
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,439
Speaker 1: pressed for thirty seconds a couple of times. I don't care.

1001
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 1: Here's ads enter back. Okay. And so this terrible full

1002
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: circle sort of thing has happened. Early on the progena,

1003
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 1: the people who started street medics had to treat gunshot

1004
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 1: wounds at wounded me Then for decades it was almost exclusively,

1005
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 1: as I understand it, impact weapons, chemical weapons, batons, sun exposure.

1006
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 1: Lots of bad medical things will happen, and bad things

1007
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 1: happen at demonstrations, but it was very rarely gunshot wounds.

1008
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 1: With the rise of Trump and American fascism, medics have

1009
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:35,800
Speaker 1: had to deal with gunshot wounds.

1010
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 2: Again.

1011
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell a version of a story that's

1012
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: anonymous from a friend. The first shooting at one of

1013
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:43,959
Speaker 1: these protests in the modern era that I can point

1014
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 1: to was on January twentieth, twenty seventeen, the literal first

1015
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 1: day of Trump in office. Within hours of Donald Trump

1016
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:54,399
Speaker 1: being sworn in as president, the former alt right star

1017
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:58,479
Speaker 1: Milo Ianopolis. He's not former altright, he's just former star.

1018
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 1: People don't care about him anymore, including on the right.

1019
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 1: Fuck him.

1020
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:02,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1021
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 1: He was giving a talk at the University of Washington,

1022
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 1: and he has since faded from prominence, partly because he's gay,

1023
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 1: although he's actually ex gay now oh really, Yeah, but

1024
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 1: fascists only like gay fascists for a little while. That's

1025
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 1: the thing you learned by reading fascist history. Yeah. And

1026
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:21,839
Speaker 1: there were hundreds or thousands of people protesting his talk,

1027
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: and a thirty four year old member of the Industrial

1028
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: Workers of the World, the same union that I'm part of,

1029
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 1: was shot in the stomach by someone who is there

1030
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,799
Speaker 1: to see Milo. A friend of mine was on the

1031
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 1: scene as a street medic, and they'd done lots of

1032
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: medical training for protests they've been running. As a market medic.

1033
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 1: They hadn't learned how to deal with a gunshot wound

1034
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 1: as part of street medic training, because that's not a

1035
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 1: thing that people faced.

1036
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 2: Very challenging to learn how to do on the street am,

1037
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 2: particularly an abdominal injury. Yeah.

1038
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 1: Still, they and a few other medics, as far as

1039
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,800
Speaker 1: I can tell, save that person's life. My friend doesn't

1040
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,400
Speaker 1: frame it that way, my friend and I think is

1041
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,800
Speaker 1: being humble about it. They got the patient onto the

1042
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 1: ground and started to staunch the bleeding, and I've watched

1043
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 1: the video or researching the episode and cried at my desk,

1044
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,800
Speaker 1: And the cops come in seconds later after they start

1045
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 1: performing care and they do nothing. No, they do instead

1046
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 1: of doing nothing, they physically throw the medics away from

1047
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 1: the patient. Ah. Yes, it's either one or the other. Yeah.

1048
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 1: And then the cops stand around do nothing for a

1049
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:30,240
Speaker 1: while while a street medic, screaming and crying, is holding

1050
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: out a trauma pad being like, please, for the fucking

1051
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 1: love of God, take this and use it. Eventually, the

1052
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:38,320
Speaker 1: police did then move that person to his police medic.

1053
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 1: After a while, the person did survive, and since then,

1054
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 1: more and more of us anti fascist types go to

1055
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 1: stop the bleed trainings. I've never done a twenty hour

1056
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 1: street medic training. I've been to like several multi hour

1057
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 1: just basic like how to stop the bleed. It's a

1058
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,240
Speaker 1: specific type of training as a stop the bleed training,

1059
00:50:57,640 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: and they're very comparable to like don't move the spine

1060
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 1: kind of thing, where it's like, yeah, this doesn't teach you,

1061
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 1: like I don't know how to take off a tourniquet,

1062
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 1: you know, like, yeah, that's higher level of care. That's

1063
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:12,359
Speaker 1: what er doctors are for, you know.

1064
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a very specific set of skills that are

1065
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 2: required for the immediate acute purpose and it's very different

1066
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:21,800
Speaker 2: from the long term care of these injuries.

1067
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 1: And I think that generalizing the like how to deal

1068
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: with the gunshot wound, I also think literally anyone who

1069
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 1: trains to carry a gun or carries a gun needs

1070
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 1: to before you carry a gun, learning how to deal

1071
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 1: with a gunshot wound is more important.

1072
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 2: Yes, that would be I mean it's hard enough to

1073
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 2: get the most basic background checks, but like, yeah, that

1074
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 2: would be amazing.

1075
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, It's like, you know, I think people know that

1076
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:52,240
Speaker 1: I train with firearms occasionally, and like what I've gotten

1077
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 1: for various like concealed carry licenses and things like that

1078
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 1: has been like learn the laws and shoot a piece

1079
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 1: of paper, right, Yeah, would rather have proven that I

1080
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 1: know how to use a tourniquet and you know, know,

1081
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:08,959
Speaker 1: like what chess seals are and whatever. More and more

1082
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 1: people go to Stop the Bleed trainings and learn how

1083
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:14,359
Speaker 1: to respond to gunfire and a crowd how to stop

1084
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 1: the bleeding, but also how to help people find cover,

1085
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 1: what the difference between cover and concealment is, how to

1086
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 1: not become an additional casualty, and how to help a

1087
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: crowd remain calm and how to delegate tasks. Yeah, I

1088
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 1: don't know. I asked one of my medic friends what

1089
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 1: they would recommend for anyone interested in becoming a medic,

1090
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 1: and they told me, quote, search for your local street

1091
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 1: medic collective and ask them. Get trained in whatever first

1092
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 1: aid skills are being offered. Wherever you are come to

1093
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 1: an action with a kid of gear you know how

1094
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 1: to use, prepared to help people if needed, prioritizing patient

1095
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 1: consent and autonomy. That was the one oh one how

1096
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 1: to get involved.

1097
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's pretty reasonable. I mean it would

1098
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:55,399
Speaker 2: be great to see people get more basic. You know

1099
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:59,839
Speaker 2: life saving, learn how to do compressions, and learn how

1100
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 2: to do the very basics in terms of resuscitation as well.

1101
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 2: You know, there's courses that are available. I think Stop

1102
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:10,360
Speaker 2: the Bleed is a actual like website from the American

1103
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 2: College Assurgeons. I think they actually have like a website

1104
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:14,839
Speaker 2: that goes over the basics of it, but I've never

1105
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 2: actually looked at it, so I don't know. But you

1106
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 2: can probably can find online courses there as well. And then,

1107
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 2: you know, what's interesting to me is what everyone can

1108
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 2: bring to a protest, even if they're not a medic.

1109
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 2: And if I had to say one thing, the one

1110
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 2: thing I would add to that is always be prepared

1111
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:37,439
Speaker 2: with extra water. Yeah, you know, have something to cover

1112
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 2: yourself from the sun, because that's gonna be a major

1113
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 2: factor for a lot of people. Most injuries, as you

1114
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:45,239
Speaker 2: mentioned before, are sun related dehydration, that sort of thing.

1115
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:48,399
Speaker 2: And water. Just always have more water than you think

1116
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 2: you're gonna need. That's but I don't say that for

1117
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 2: almost anything. That's almost true for almost any setting, whether

1118
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:56,280
Speaker 2: you're on the hike or whether you're going to a protest.

1119
00:53:56,680 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 2: It would be spectacular, though, if more people in the

1120
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 2: protest movements got more medical training. I think that's fantastic.

1121
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:11,719
Speaker 1: I agree. I think that carry basic medical supplies and.

1122
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 2: We should incorporate this. I do, like I said earlier,

1123
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 2: I would love to see medical schools. I have an

1124
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 2: elective for this, Yeah, you know have like you know,

1125
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:23,359
Speaker 2: you got your fourth year of medical school. There's lots

1126
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 2: of time for electives and people kind of coasting. I

1127
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:26,959
Speaker 2: feel like this is the kind of thing that would

1128
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 2: just be so spectacular if someone could offer it. So

1129
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 2: I don't know. Now that I've said that, I feel

1130
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 2: like I need to then talk to people about doing it.

1131
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 2: But I'm not ready for that in my life. I

1132
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 2: don't know if I have the bandwidth for that. But

1133
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 2: it's something that we do do a lot, you know,

1134
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 2: But that does seem so worthwhile I would like to

1135
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 2: get it. I'm not going to pretend I have any electability.

1136
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 2: If we were in the stream and a street medic

1137
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 2: was next to me, that's the person that i'd probably

1138
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:54,720
Speaker 2: turn to for advice on a lot of these things.

1139
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 2: So I could have learned so much from it myself.

1140
00:54:58,200 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 1: We should do a bridge training and then tell me

1141
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:01,400
Speaker 1: what it's like, because I don't know because I'm not

1142
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:02,320
Speaker 1: a medical professional.

1143
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 2: It's fair. Actually is not a bad ide different episode maybe?

1144
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,279
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, dude, exactly. That's the way to get things

1145
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 1: done on our podcaster content minds contents right, it's so

1146
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:15,239
Speaker 1: hard to being like, what do you do for a living? Now?

1147
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 1: I make content?

1148
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 2: What does that even mean? I don't know intellectual content.

1149
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,720
Speaker 1: Well, if people want to hear the kind of podcast

1150
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 1: stuff you've already done, would you recommend? Do you have

1151
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 1: any podcasts?

1152
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:32,359
Speaker 2: Yeah? I have content all over the place. I love

1153
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:34,240
Speaker 2: my content all over the place.

1154
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 1: As a French would say, it's just a week content.

1155
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 1: I also know how to say I am happy. That's

1156
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:41,359
Speaker 1: the only other thing I know to say.

1157
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 2: That's good. That's the important things you needed them. So

1158
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 2: I have a podcast. It is fun. I think you

1159
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 2: will like it. It's called The House of pod and

1160
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:54,800
Speaker 2: we talk about medical topics, science topics, about what's happening

1161
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 2: to the healthcare infrastructure. We take a look at medical grifters,

1162
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 2: well scrifters, and we have generally a good time. It's

1163
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:07,000
Speaker 2: humor adjacent and I think you will enjoy it. Please

1164
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 2: go check it out. It's really fun to do and

1165
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 2: I love hearing from listeners as well, so if you

1166
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 2: have ideas for shows, I'm open to hearing them. You

1167
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 2: can also email me at hop Questions at gmail dot com,

1168
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 2: where you can suggest top it to the show, and

1169
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 2: I oftentimes make them happen with guests like the people

1170
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 2: that you listen to right now, Margaret and Sophie, two

1171
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 2: of my favorite people, so you'll have fun. I promise

1172
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:31,479
Speaker 2: or your money back, and it's free, so no money back.

1173
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 1: I also like running a humor adjacent podcast, so I

1174
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 1: appreciate being humor adjacent right next door. I have other

1175
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:46,200
Speaker 1: content and some of its books. My most recent book

1176
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 1: is called The Immortal Choir Holds Every Voice. And if

1177
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 1: you want to read a story about elves in the

1178
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 1: Midwest collecting people's skulls or a troll king who is

1179
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:59,760
Speaker 1: involved in World War Two, you can read The Immortal

1180
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 1: Holds Every Voice. And oh, well, your kids like board games, yeah,

1181
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:07,759
Speaker 1: and I was slightly involved in a board game called

1182
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:10,360
Speaker 1: Defenders of the Wild, in which you play different animals

1183
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 1: defending the common wood. I believe it's called from the

1184
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 1: machines that have come out of the earth and are

1185
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: destroying everything. But I was heavily involved in the tabletop

1186
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 1: role playing game side project of that, which is also

1187
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 1: called Defenders the Wild, or it's called the Defenders Almanac.

1188
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 1: You think I would know because I'm one of the

1189
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 1: credited authors, but I'm not the person who put it

1190
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:29,680
Speaker 1: all together. So it's called Defenders of the Wild. And

1191
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 1: I got to write lots of fun backstories about different

1192
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 1: creatures in the War against the Machines.

1193
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 2: Oh that sounds awesome. Where can I find it?

1194
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 1: Well, it was put out by out Landish Games, and

1195
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 1: it should be available through most like game distribution places.

1196
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 1: That Landish Games is pretty good at what they do.

1197
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 2: In San Francisco, we have a number of like these

1198
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 2: places that have all the board games.

1199
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, all that stuff cool?

1200
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 2: So I bet you I can find it here. Yeah,

1201
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 2: pretty cool.

1202
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 1: I suspect as much. The people who designed the board

1203
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:01,440
Speaker 1: game have a bunch of pretty big board game credits

1204
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 1: behind them. And I managed to get my dog rentraw

1205
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:07,959
Speaker 1: in as an anthropomorphic fox as a character. Of course

1206
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 1: you do so if you want art that. And I

1207
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 1: also got to name one of the medic characters after

1208
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:14,400
Speaker 1: my pa friend.

1209
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 2: Oh that's awesome, I want Kafe is a great name

1210
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 2: for a character. I'll have you know, oh, Kave, just

1211
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 2: consider it for the future, true for an awesome characters.

1212
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 1: That's a good point.

1213
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:27,480
Speaker 2: I'm looking at Defenders of the Wild and it is.

1214
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:29,640
Speaker 2: It looks awesome, It's so fun.

1215
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 1: I think people will like it. I believe that the

1216
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 1: Almanac just came out with the RPG. I believe it

1217
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 1: just came out last week when you are listening, because

1218
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 1: it came out two days ago as I record this,

1219
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:41,360
Speaker 1: and I should have led with that as my plug.

1220
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 1: And I'm bad at remembering what things I have coming

1221
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 1: out when. And my publishers love me. Thanks for having

1222
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:49,320
Speaker 1: me on your project. So if you guys think you

1223
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 1: want plug.

1224
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 2: Had a dog, if they want you to do, if

1225
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 2: you want you to.

1226
00:58:54,680 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 1: All right, I will see you all soon. Nay. Cool

1227
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 1: People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of cool

1228
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:04,920
Speaker 1: Zone Media.

1229
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 2: For more podcasts and cool Zone Media, visit our website

1230
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:11,919
Speaker 2: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1231
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,800
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.