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Speaker 1: On this special bonus episode of Sports Illustrated Weekly, some

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Speaker 1: of the biggest names in golf have lately flirted with

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Speaker 1: a new league that has the PGA Tour ready to

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Speaker 1: ban defectors. Live Golf, a new outfit bankrolled by Saudi

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Speaker 1: Arabian interests, promises mega money to any golfers who sign on,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, three of the last twelve US Open

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Speaker 1: champions will appear at the very first Live Series event,

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Speaker 1: which teas off this week just north of London and

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Speaker 1: then includes Phil Mickelson. SI Golf writer Bob Harrick joins

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Speaker 1: me to discuss the heated debate and controversy surrounding the

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Speaker 1: new league and it's Saudi funding. It's Tuesday, June seven.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, John Gonzalez from Sports Illustrated and iHeart Radio.

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Speaker 1: This is Sports Illustrated Weekly. Now we're going to turn

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Speaker 1: our attention to golf because a civil war of sorts

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Speaker 1: has broken out in golf. On the one side, you

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Speaker 1: have the traditional homes of professional golf, the PGA Tour

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Speaker 1: and the European Tour. And on the other side is

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Speaker 1: a newcomer, Live Golf, a company that is backed by

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Speaker 1: enormous funding from a Saudi Arabian investment fund. Phil Nicholson

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Speaker 1: has made news of his own on Thursday, without even

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Speaker 1: hissing a shot. We know he's been a reported target

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Speaker 1: on the Super Golf League backed by the Saudi Arabian government.

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Speaker 1: Several high profile golfers have been in the news lately

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Speaker 1: for their comments about Saudi Arabia and an upstart golf

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Speaker 1: league that hopes to rival the PGA Tour. To break

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Speaker 1: down that controversy over the big money collaboration, we're joined

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Speaker 1: by Si Stafford Bob Harrick, the author of Tiger and Phil,

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Speaker 1: Golf's Most Fascinating Rivalry. Bob Harrick, Welcome to Sports Illustrator Weekly.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me appreciate it. Thanks all right, so

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Speaker 1: you're a golf expert. We are not explained to everybody

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Speaker 1: why there has been so much discussion lately around Saudi

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Speaker 1: Arabia and golf. The main reason is because this new

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Speaker 1: entity called Live Golf Investments will have a series of

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Speaker 1: events to Live Golf Invitational Series. It's backed by the

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Speaker 1: Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia, that's their sovereign wealth fund.

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Speaker 1: Less than a year ago, probably it came to fruition

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Speaker 1: maybe nine months ago, with the ideas of having a

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Speaker 1: new league that would be an alternative to what we're

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Speaker 1: used to. Instead of seventy two hole stroke play tournaments

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Speaker 1: every week like we see on the PGA Tour of

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Speaker 1: the European Tour, they would have fifty four whole events

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Speaker 1: shotguns starts, which means everybody tease off at same time

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Speaker 1: on different holes. Everybody gets paid, no cut, huge purses

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Speaker 1: and oh, by the way, the stars would get guaranteed

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Speaker 1: just to show up. And obviously it's been quite disruptive.

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Speaker 1: PGA Tour doesn't look kindly upon somebody sort of invading

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Speaker 1: their turf and possibly taking their players. Phil Nicholson was

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Speaker 1: heavily involved. He's kind of gone underground the last three months.

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Speaker 1: We're not really quite sure what he's gonna do. He

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Speaker 1: didn't play in the PGA Championship where he had one

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Speaker 1: a year ago. Certainly one of the moments I'll cherish

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Speaker 1: my my entire life, and I don't I don't know

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Speaker 1: how to describe the feeling of excitement and fulfillment, and

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Speaker 1: you've got people taking sides. It's really been an amazing

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Speaker 1: turn of events here over the last three or four

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Speaker 1: months this year. Yeah. With regard to Michelson, Alan Schipnuk

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Speaker 1: recently published an unauthorized biography of Lefty and he's had

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Speaker 1: a lot to say on the subject. Last was a

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Speaker 1: transcendent performance, but the ground is shifted beneath his feet,

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Speaker 1: and I think that Phil is just buying some time

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Speaker 1: to figure out his next move. Yeah. So there are

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Speaker 1: any number of controversies surrounding the Saudi government, particularly regarding

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Speaker 1: anti democratic and human rights abuses. So to make this

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Speaker 1: new league work, Bob, they need high profile players, as

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Speaker 1: we've outlined, who are willing to look the other way,

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Speaker 1: and to do that they have to throw money at

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Speaker 1: those players. And probably the most high profile of all

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Speaker 1: who's been involved, as we've discussed, is Phil Mickelson. There

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Speaker 1: was two interviews that Phil gave that really sparked this controversy.

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Speaker 1: One was with Golf Digest when he was playing in

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Speaker 1: the Sawty International Tournament in early February, and in the

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Speaker 1: course of that week, Phil did an interview with Golf

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Speaker 1: Digest in which he referred to the PGA Tours of

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Speaker 1: Noxious Greed for some of his reasons for looking at

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Speaker 1: this other live golf authentity and as part of that

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Speaker 1: he complained heavily about the fact that he does not

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Speaker 1: have access to his own media rights, his own video rights,

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Speaker 1: so he says all that kind of comes off wrong.

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Speaker 1: Then he did another interview that had been actually done

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Speaker 1: last late last year, but it was for a book

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Speaker 1: that's coming out. I've just written my own book on

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Speaker 1: Tiger and Phil that doesn't dive into all of this.

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Speaker 1: But Alan Schipnuk has a biography coming out or actually

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Speaker 1: it is out on Phil in which Phil talked about

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Speaker 1: these various aspects, and he was very critical of the

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Speaker 1: Saudi regime, pointing out their human rights issues and saying

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Speaker 1: though that he was willing to overlook it if it

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Speaker 1: helped him create some leverage with the PGA tour, and

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Speaker 1: if it didn't, he was fine with going to play

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Speaker 1: for this entity. And today we lent. He said the

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Speaker 1: following to the bi Pit collective, saying they're scary expletive

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Speaker 1: to get involved with. We know they killed Shogi and

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Speaker 1: have a horrible record on human rights. They execute people

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Speaker 1: over there for being gay. Knowing all of this, why

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Speaker 1: would I even consider it? Because this is a once

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Speaker 1: in a lifetime opportunity to reshape how the PGA to operates,

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Speaker 1: and that caused quite the stir A bunch of his

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Speaker 1: sponsors dropped him, Phil pulled out of some tournament. It's

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Speaker 1: been February twenty two, now three months. He issued a

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Speaker 1: statement sort of apologizing, but he didn't apologize to the

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Speaker 1: PGA Tour, and he didn't really back off of looking

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Speaker 1: into what he was doing. He just felt some of

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Speaker 1: it was misconstrued. He actually accused the reporter of using

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Speaker 1: off the record comments, but he also said I need

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Speaker 1: to take some time away to reassess some things, and

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Speaker 1: that time away still continues. Yeah, he's become sort of

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Speaker 1: persona on grata in the wake of all us. He

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Speaker 1: sort of disappeared. He won the PGA Championship last year,

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Speaker 1: he no showed this year. There were sightings of him

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Speaker 1: playing golf in San Diego with a beard, and people

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Speaker 1: were wondering what's going on with him. But he really

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Speaker 1: has receded in the background as a result of his

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Speaker 1: association with the Saudis. But people were also speculating Bob

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Speaker 1: about why he wanted to associate himself with the Saudis

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Speaker 1: and with this new golf league. Yes, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: they're throwing around a ton of money. But people have

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Speaker 1: noted that by some estimates, Phil Mickelson has made close

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Speaker 1: to eight hundred million dollars from golf and endorsements in

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Speaker 1: his career, which made some people wonder, well, why would

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Speaker 1: film need the money, and there were speculation about potential

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Speaker 1: gambling debts. I'm wondering what you make of Phil and

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Speaker 1: his economic situation with regard to him associating with the

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Speaker 1: Saudis and this new golf league that is highly controversial.

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Speaker 1: It's fair to wonder if he's got some money issues.

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Speaker 1: He's been a noted gambly of ficionado for twenty five years.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't so much the amount of money, but the

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Speaker 1: fact that he just relished getting into the pockets of

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Speaker 1: his contemporaries, you know, the guys he played with and

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Speaker 1: used it as a way to help him prepare for tournaments.

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Speaker 1: He thought it was good to have something on the line.

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Speaker 1: These are all things that are being speculated about now

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Speaker 1: because the Saudi backed Live Golf. They've been offering nine

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Speaker 1: figure guarantees just to join, So we're talking ten million

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Speaker 1: dollars and up just to sign on, just to join

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Speaker 1: their league. Or to play x number of events or

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Speaker 1: x number of years. So and Phil was going to

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Speaker 1: be getting a lot more than ten million. He's not

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Speaker 1: the only one who was looking at this. He's sort

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Speaker 1: of taking the fall for everybody. There were some other

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Speaker 1: big name guys who were thought to have signed on

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Speaker 1: and and they and they re nicked. They backed out

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Speaker 1: after all this stuff went down, and perhaps had been

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Speaker 1: paid or we're getting ready to be paid and they've

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Speaker 1: paid it back. Nobody knows for sure, but the liv

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Speaker 1: golf people are still banking on the idea that even

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Speaker 1: though they're not going to probably have a lot of

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Speaker 1: big names, people will be watching. Whoever these names are

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Speaker 1: win a lot of money and see a different format

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Speaker 1: and guys that you know that you can beat are

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Speaker 1: making a lot more money than you. Human nature being

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Speaker 1: what it is, maybe they'd want to check it out

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Speaker 1: that maybe not this year, maybe not next year, but

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Speaker 1: down the road there's so much money that they have

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Speaker 1: they have time to be patient. Philth sort of has

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Speaker 1: been out front on this. He's taken a lot of

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Speaker 1: heat over it, but he's not the only one. CEO

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Speaker 1: Greg Norman has also been involved in some of the controversy.

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Speaker 1: He sort of hand waved the accusation that Crown Prince

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Speaker 1: Mohammed bin Salmon had Jamal Kashogi, the former Saudi dissident,

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Speaker 1: and read it for The Washington Post killed and dismembered,

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Speaker 1: which he took a ton of criticism for, and rightly, So,

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Speaker 1: what's the reaction to Greg Norman's and on that been

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Speaker 1: He's gotten that question often and almost every time he

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Speaker 1: has said that the murder of Kashoggi was reprehensible and

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Speaker 1: that he doesn't condone it, and that this is part

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Speaker 1: of them trying to change their ways. He finally slipped

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Speaker 1: and he didn't answer it properly. He was asked about

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Speaker 1: the murder, the horrific murder of Jamal Kashagi and about

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Speaker 1: human rights. He says the whole thing about Saudi Arabian

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Speaker 1: and Kashagi and human rights, talk about it, but also

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Speaker 1: talk about the good that the country is doing and

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Speaker 1: changing its culture. Look, we've all made mistakes, and you

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Speaker 1: just want to learn by those mistakes and how you

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Speaker 1: can correct them going forward, which was of course a

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Speaker 1: horrendous thing to say about the murder of someone who

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Speaker 1: lived in the US. And he's also tried to disassociate

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Speaker 1: live golf from the Saudi government, at least in the

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Speaker 1: short term. They don't appear to be doing this to

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Speaker 1: help their image. Five of the answer and being played

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Speaker 1: in the US. If you didn't know that the money

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Speaker 1: was coming from Saudi Arabia, you wouldn't know. Two of

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Speaker 1: the other events are overseas, only one is actually in

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Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia, And so ultimately their goal, of course, is

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Speaker 1: to try to enhance their image. I think they would

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Speaker 1: like Saudi to become a golf destination. They see it

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Speaker 1: as a place that can sort of overcome the negatives

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Speaker 1: that we all associate with it. Anybody who's been associated

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Speaker 1: with this league has come under scrutiny. Phil Mickelson has

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Speaker 1: basically gone into hiding. Greg Norman has to explain his

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Speaker 1: comments and defending the saudis what's your best bet here?

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Speaker 1: Do you think this league will work out well? I

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Speaker 1: actually think the PGA Tour is probably going to be fine,

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Speaker 1: But whether or not the live golf idea works is

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Speaker 1: really up to their patients. Are they willing to pour

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Speaker 1: millions of dollars into this and waited out because it's

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Speaker 1: not going to be a big thing this year? As

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Speaker 1: of right now, they don't have a network TV deal,

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Speaker 1: so their first event is going to be in June,

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Speaker 1: basically three months out. Even for a small field, that's

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Speaker 1: a lot of work. It's a lot that has to

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Speaker 1: come together. They're gonna probably set themselves up to some ridicule.

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Speaker 1: The best thing that could happen for them is some

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Speaker 1: golfer that we've never heard of winning the tournament and

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Speaker 1: four million dollars. It takes a lot of good golf

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Speaker 1: on the PGA Tour to make four million dollars, and

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Speaker 1: slowly but surely they're hoping to lure some people over,

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Speaker 1: and if they do, then it becomes a problem for

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Speaker 1: the tour, especially if they lose some of their top

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Speaker 1: guys to this. Their hope is to have a fourteen

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Speaker 1: tournament schedule with a team component. There would be twelve

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Speaker 1: four man teams every week competing as well as the

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Speaker 1: individual part. Yeah, they have a lot of issues going on,

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Speaker 1: but I don't think attention will be one of them.

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Speaker 1: Bob Hard you can read him on SI dot com.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for this, Thanks for having me. Sports

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Speaker 1: Illustrated Weekly is a production of Sports Illustrated and I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio visit

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Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your favorite shows. And for more of Sports Illustrated

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Speaker 1: It's best stories and podcasts, visit SI dot com. This

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Speaker 1: episode of Sports Illustrated Weekly was produced by Cooper McKim,

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Speaker 1: Jessica Armoski, and Isaac Lee, who was also our sound engineer.

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Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Dan Bloom. Our executive producers are

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Speaker 1: Scott Brodie and me John Gonzalez. Our theme song is

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Speaker 1: by Nolan Schneider. Thanks for listening. Our regularly scheduled episode

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Speaker 1: of Sports Illustrated Weekly will hit your feed tomorrow Wednesday,

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Speaker 1: June