1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: Welcome back to a numbers game at Ryan Gradoweski. Happy Monday, everybody. 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: I'm excited that you're all here. So, if you're a 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: loyal listener of this podcast, I mostly stick to conversation 4 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: with elections or some battleground election stuff or some issue stuff. 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: I don't. I try hard not to chase fads because 6 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: I think that that's a losing game. I see what's 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: on social media, but I don't participate very often, and 8 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: a lot of people who do podcasts want to make 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: their audience comfortable. They want to regurgitate what they already believe. 10 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: I try to make my audience as informed as possible 11 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: with data. That being said, I'm going to break all 12 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 1: those rules on this episode because if you follow my 13 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:44,599 Speaker 1: social media for some time, you know that I am 14 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: a crime junkie. I read true crime, I listen to it. 15 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,959 Speaker 1: I absorb far too much of it, and sometimes I'll 16 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: catch myself at two am still up thinking, you know 17 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: what tonight's to night. I'm going to crack the job 18 00:00:57,600 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: be an Ramsey case. I'm going to do it by 19 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: wikipeding the you know the shit of this campaign out 20 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: of this case, and I'm going to figure out everything, 21 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: it never happens. But I know there's like a delusion, 22 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: so I'm very well aware how crazy it is. But 23 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: like most Americans, I find true crime fascinating, and I 24 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: have found the Jeffrey Epstein case fascinating. I mean, I'm 25 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: only human because not only does it deal with someone 26 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: who truly is a mystery when it comes to everything 27 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: but the crime. The crime is pretty simple to understand. 28 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: But the mystery is the person and why this person 29 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: was surrounded by all these very very very important people 30 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: by from everyone from princes and kings and prime ministers 31 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: and presidents, true billionaires and entrepreneurs and lawyers and scientists. 32 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: As many of you know, last week and President Trump's administration, 33 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: that there was no Epstein's list of people he was blackmailing, 34 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: There was no that he did in fact kill himself 35 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: in prison, and the President Trump himself said, why are 36 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: you still talking about Epstein? People were outraged by what 37 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: Trump said and still very curious. Search engines reported that 38 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: Epstein's name, along with the word Trump, increased by twelve 39 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: hundred percent after Trump made those comments. From the week prior, 40 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: it was the number one search thing in connection to 41 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: President Trump. More than Eli Musk, more than tariffs, more 42 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: than anything. Epstein became the topic. He had a Streisian effect. 43 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: By trying to not make it the topic, he made 44 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: of the topic. People are calling for Trump's administration to 45 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,119 Speaker 1: release the full Epstein file, something the administration is refusing 46 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: to do. They're basically saying the case is closed. Ironically, 47 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: one of these people calling for the full release of 48 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:53,519 Speaker 1: the file is Steve Bannon. Steve Bannon, which many people 49 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: do not remember or know, is that in twenty nineteen, 50 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: before he killed himself in him before he was arrested, 51 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: Bannon had a he might have been arrested, but he 52 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: didn't kill himsel yet obviously, But before he died, Bannon 53 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: had a fifteen hour recorded interview with Epstein that he 54 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: has never released in all these years. He said he 55 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: was going to make a documentary about it, but he's 56 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: never released these fifteen hours of videos. And he's one 57 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: of the people sitting there and saying, you got to 58 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: release you know, you got to release the full Epstein file, 59 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: and he has not released these very important videos. Now 60 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: I think lost in the headlines, but the tru administrations 61 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,679 Speaker 1: claimed that there was no official list. I think well, 62 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: I think what they were saying was like, there's no 63 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: excel file. There's no excel file of the people who 64 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: was blackmailing. There were clearly people that he was pure 65 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: curing young girls too, right, That's there's no question that 66 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: Prince Andrew seemed to be or allegedly Prince Andrew was 67 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: getting young girls to have sexual encounters with him, and 68 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: he was just one of possibly many's. But that's the 69 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: most obvious one, and it wasn't because you know Jeffrey 70 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: Epstein and Prince Andrew so much in commic that were 71 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: getting tea and then they said, hey, what are you 72 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,119 Speaker 1: doing this weekend? Let's go to my island. I think 73 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: also lost in this conversation and lost in the confusion. 74 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: But whatever happened to so much of Epstein's stuff, Like 75 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: for the Epstein case, there was there was a case 76 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: where Epstein and we may never know this, but there 77 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: was a case when the FBI went and rated the 78 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: island and the search warrant did not include what was 79 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: in the safe, but they had said the FBI agent, 80 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 1: so they saw tapes in the case and the safe, 81 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: and when they went back there several weeks later, all 82 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: the tapes were destroyed or gone or missing, whatever, something 83 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: happened to them. What happened all his money? Webent his stuff, 84 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: I mean webent to his client stuff. There was other 85 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: things that the FBI got a hold of. There's some 86 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: things that the FBI never got a hold of that 87 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: somebody must have somewhere. And the fact that the trum 88 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: administration is trying to run away from this issue is 89 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,679 Speaker 1: making people more curious. Comedian Andrew Schultz, who had Trump 90 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: on his podcast, He's got a huge podcast. He had 91 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 1: Trump on last time before the election. He went on 92 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: a TI rate. He was screaming about that. You know, 93 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: people like AOC were a real America first people. Because 94 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: Trump won't release the tapes and he's lying to us. 95 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: I have two major thoughts on this. First, there are 96 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: too many people in the Trump orbit who jumped on 97 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: every conspiracy about Epstein and a lot of other things 98 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: that had no proof. And I'm sorry, but cash buttell 99 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: spend a lot of time on podcasts that promoted a 100 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: lot of nonsense to people, things that were I mean, 101 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: he was at times he was on podcasts that were 102 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: just inches away from saying JFK Junior was alive and 103 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: would be Trump's running mate. He promote a lot of 104 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: stuff to people who have, for lack of a better term, 105 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: anti social behavioral issues where they don't trust anything, and 106 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: some of them have a right not to trust some 107 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: stuff that the government does and some stuff that well 108 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: people do. I get it, but they feed that. They 109 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: fed the beast, and now he is the beast and 110 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: he has to answer to it. He was extremely irresponsible 111 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: as a private citizen to build a fan base. This 112 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: happens in online culture a lot. It happens in right 113 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: wing culture. A lot bluffs does it too. They say 114 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: outrageous things, they say things that aren't true. They lie 115 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: to their audience over and over and over again to 116 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: get more followers to feed the worst narratives. On the 117 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: other side, I see it from both sides. It happens everywhere. 118 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: It's still wrong and it's still irresponsible. And you live 119 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: by the conspiracy theory, you die by the conspiracy theory. Right. 120 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: Not every rich person's a Satanist, not everyone's a child molester, 121 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 1: not everyone's everything. Secondly, and I don't think that this 122 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: is necessarily right to say, but I'll say this is 123 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: that Epstein was way too close to too many powerful 124 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: people and entities that to completely expose them. We're not 125 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: going to completely expose all these people that he was around. 126 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: There's just no way. We're sixty something years since the 127 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 1: jfk assassination and we're just finding out about the CIA's 128 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: relationship with Lee Harvey Oswald, and everyone in that case 129 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: is dead, Like I mean, there might be one person 130 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: in a nursing home, but everyone else is gone. And 131 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: they still won't tell us the unredacted truth about that case, 132 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: you know. So the idea that they were going to 133 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: tell you everyone about Jeffrey Epstein on all of his clients, 134 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: but everyone's still alive or most of them are still alive, 135 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,239 Speaker 1: I think was a pipe dream. I think they shouldn't 136 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: have promised that when it was definitely never gonna happen. 137 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: Now I don't know everything about the Jeffrey Epstein case, 138 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: and I have a lot of questions, like how did 139 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: he get all of his money? Why was he around 140 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: these people? Remember, not everyone around him was suber wealthy, 141 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: Not everyone around him was a billionaire, Not everyone around 142 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: him was a child moluster, Not everyone was a scientist 143 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: or a president. They all flocked to him, though, was 144 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: it just that wealth invites more wealth and power invites 145 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: more power and they all had to be going to 146 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: this island. I think for some people it was probable 147 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: that they were in it to procure sexual advances from 148 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: young girls, but not all of them. Something else is involved, 149 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: in my opinion that I don't think is going to 150 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: answer be answered. And also, why is just Lane Maxwell 151 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: then in prison if the Epstein file didn't exist. I 152 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: think the question over what just Lane Maxwell knows and 153 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: what she doesn't know and what she's saying what she's 154 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: not saying is really the bigger question, because she is 155 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: the only living person we have who can still speak 156 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: the truth, and she's not speaking, and I think that 157 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: she brings all off a lot of other questions that 158 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 1: people should have. I don't know these answers, and I 159 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: don't want to pedal conspiracy theories to get clicks and listens. 160 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: I think that's very irresponsible and I'd probably be a 161 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: very much bigger personality if I did do that, but 162 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: I'm not going to. But with me on today's episode 163 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: is someone who knows a lot more about this than 164 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: I do, who spent time with Jeffrey Epstein. She's not 165 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: a household name, but her name is Vicky Ward, and 166 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 1: in March two thousand and three, Vicky wrote a groundbreaking 167 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 1: piece for Vanity Fair called The Talent of mister Epstein. 168 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: This was before the Palm Beach Police was investigating him 169 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: on the subject of the matter. Vicky was the first 170 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: journalist to really spend significant time with him and to 171 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: ask a question over his money and his connections and 172 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: who were these young girls. It got so bad that 173 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: the outlet that she was writing for at the time, 174 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: Vanity Fair, took out some of the most salacious comments 175 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: because Epstein was threatening to sue and Vicky had to 176 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: take up personal security for her life. I think she 177 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: was pregnant at the time because she felt threatened by Epstein. 178 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: She knows a lot on this matter, far more than 179 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: I do, and I want to bring on as my 180 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: next guest to talk really about Jeffrey Epstein, who he 181 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: was as the person, and some of the questions we 182 00:09:55,080 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 1: still think about today. Coming up next, Vicky Ward is 183 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: a groundbreaking journalist and the author of the new book 184 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: The Idaho For Vicky, thank you for being on here. 185 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:07,719 Speaker 1: I want to talk about your book, but I want 186 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: to talk about Epstein. First, you were the first journalist 187 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: story this big profile back in two thousand and three 188 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: about Epstein, and you've since said in multip interviews that 189 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: the Epstein story is two stories. It's a very simple 190 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: story about the sex scandal with the underage girls and 191 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: the complicated story about his relationship with all these people. 192 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: One thing I found interesting about your past comments, as 193 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: you said that there's no evidence that Epstein started these 194 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: sexual encounters before his meeting with Gilaine Maxwell. She was 195 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,199 Speaker 1: a very wealthy woman who became very poor. He was 196 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: a very poor man and become very wealthy. Is it 197 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: a situation of the two people meeting. Do you think 198 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: that created the situation that the care of the created scenario, 199 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 1: or was Gizlaine had a bigger role than people think 200 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 1: of just being like a. 201 00:10:54,200 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 2: Madam Brian, great question, I think I think thank you 202 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 2: for having me. I think it's a it's a complicated answer. 203 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 2: I think Gilenn Maxwell, you know, was had a very 204 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 2: sophisticated European upbringing, and so I think that she probably 205 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 2: came from a background that a lot of Americans, you know, 206 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 2: where the sexual mores would have been difficult for a 207 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 2: lot of Americans to swallow she, you know, so that 208 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 2: there is that she was also, as I have reported, 209 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 2: tragically desperate after her father died. I use the word 210 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 2: tragically because she you know, she was a very accomplished, 211 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 2: well educated woman with a massive international rolodex, who had 212 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: the abilities to go out and make something of herself. 213 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 2: But she believed, largely due to having had a megalomaniacal far, 214 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 2: that she was completely dependent. 215 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 3: On a man. 216 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 2: And the problem was that that man turned out to 217 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 2: be Jeffrey Epstein. And in order to keep his interest, 218 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 2: you know, this was not a man who was likely 219 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 2: to be monogamous. I think she pushed, you know, and 220 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 2: I've reported this. She kept his interest by sort of 221 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 2: pushing closer to the edge sexually, and that began a 222 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,719 Speaker 2: slippery slope. I mean, we know that she was involved, 223 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 2: I mean in the encounters in the nineteen nineties and 224 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 2: early two thousands with underage women, that she went out 225 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 2: and got the women for him. It is also true 226 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 2: that Jeffrey Epstein, as you know, was heavily involved with scientists. 227 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 2: I mean, one of the reasons he was so clever 228 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 2: at crossing the narrative of Jeffrey Epstein that sort of 229 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,199 Speaker 2: protected him for so long was that, you know, he 230 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 2: made all his money and then he went and courted 231 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 2: academics at Harvard and elsewhere, and he was very interested 232 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 2: in eugenics and cloning. And I do know from my 233 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 2: reporting that he believed He said this to one of 234 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,359 Speaker 2: his friends who I interviewed several times. 235 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 3: A guy called Stuart Pivart. 236 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 2: He believed that it was it was society that was 237 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 2: out of step in not condoning men having sex with children, 238 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 2: and that you know, in that when society evolved to 239 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 2: catch up with him, they would they would stand corrected. 240 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 2: So you've got so you've got two things going on. 241 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 2: You've got a man living in a bubble who believes 242 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 2: the problem is with everybody else, not with him. And 243 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 2: you've got a woman who comes from a slightly different 244 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 2: background who's desperate to do anything to keep his protection, 245 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 2: you know, his financial protection, but to keep his interest. 246 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 3: So it's both things. 247 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: What I think is very interesting about this case specifically, 248 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: is the fact that not everyone who was around him 249 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: was or seems to be, or even has been accused 250 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: of being a pedophile. Not everyone around him is incredibly rich, 251 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: Not everyone around him is a scientist. Is it that 252 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: power and influence increased his orbit. Once you have one person, 253 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: you'll have fifty, which you've seen in other big profile cases. 254 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: Or was he pure curing these people to be in 255 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: his orbit because they were for a greater purpose in 256 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: his world, because we don't know really what he did 257 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: to earn all this money, don't know where the money 258 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: really went afterwards, all all the other stuff. Was it 259 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: just the fact that he wanted to have everyone's card 260 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: like a Truman Compote type, or was it that he 261 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: was procuring them for specific purposes. 262 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 2: So Jeffrey Epstein understood a fundamental truth about very wealthy 263 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 2: people is that you know, when you're at the top 264 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 2: of the food chain, there always there's always something you 265 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 2: can't get. And his cleverness, if you want to call it, 266 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 2: that was very quickly sizing up, for example, what would 267 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 2: Bill Gates on the richest men in the world, What 268 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 2: could Jeffrey Epstein offer him that he couldn't get elsewhere? 269 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 3: And the answer was Jeffrey Epstein's Rolodex. 270 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 2: Because Bill Gates wanted to scale the Giving pledge and 271 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 2: he wanted to meet other billionaires. 272 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 3: That was the whole point of it. 273 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 2: And you know, Epsy understood many things about very rich people. 274 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 2: He understood, for example, that if they get defrauded, they 275 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 2: don't go to the authorities, and he used that to 276 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 2: his advantage. But he also understood that his rolodex was invaluable. 277 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 2: I mean, if you look at the discovery in the 278 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 2: Jess Daily case right where you have all these rushed 279 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 2: emails from Jeffrey Epstein, he seems illiterate, which I'm sure 280 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 2: was carefully contrived to make him look so busy when 281 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 2: in fact he had really probably nothing to do. But 282 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 2: he's telling Jess Daily, you know, I can get you 283 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 2: in front of Prince Andrew, and you know, think about 284 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 2: the psychology of that. Jess Daily was very, very senior 285 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: banker at JP Morgan. He probably he had plenty of money, 286 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 2: but what did he not have access to the British 287 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,679 Speaker 2: royal family. What does Bill Gates probably not have that 288 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein could offer him access to Muhammed bin Salman, 289 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 2: to the e Mayor of Cutter You know, at a 290 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 2: certain level there are you know, you want introductions to 291 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 2: other very rich people. That in a way is what 292 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,360 Speaker 2: makes the world go go round and Jeffrey and Epstein 293 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 2: really understood how sort of soft power actually works, right, So, 294 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 2: you know, and you asked though about the sex. You 295 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 2: know that I think you asked at the beginning of 296 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 2: your question. So, I mean, one of the things that 297 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 2: was very striking about all the testimony in the Gilen 298 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 2: Maxwell trial was how, in a sense, inside that Florida 299 00:17:54,800 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 2: home he and Gilen did create a private world into which, 300 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 2: you know, the household staff I think had a fair 301 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 2: idea of what was going on, but you know, and 302 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 2: it became very complicated, right because the girls that Gilen 303 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 2: went at and recruited, I mean, I'm thinking of the 304 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 2: late Virginia Robert Giffrey, then went out and recruited other girls, right, right, 305 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 2: So it became a very very tragic. 306 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: Circle when you met him. Because the only person I've 307 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 1: ever known to have met him was is my friend 308 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: and Calter her she and she said this publicly. She 309 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 1: had met him at a funeral and he invited her 310 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 1: house and at one point during the meeting, all the 311 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 1: hairs in the back of her head stood up and 312 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: she said, I have to get out of here because 313 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: thing was wrong. Was he incredibly charming? 314 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 2: No? Really, there was a cult coldness to his eyes. 315 00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 2: I mean, and he thought he was incredibly charming, which 316 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:03,199 Speaker 2: is completely different. And you know he thought by you know, 317 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 2: I met him when I was pregnant and he produced 318 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 2: tea and he sat there and ate all the tea, 319 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 2: and you know, never offered me anything. 320 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 3: You know, he was he was, He was a. 321 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 2: Complete show off. You know, I'm sure he left the 322 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 2: Marquis Dussard's book out for me. You know, it was 323 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 2: all deliberate and contrived. 324 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 3: And then when I got. 325 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 2: Home, you know, he sent me this book on this 326 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 2: mass textbook, and he I think, and then he had 327 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 2: his assistant phone and tell me, you know how pretty 328 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 2: I was. 329 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 3: And I tell you I was not feeling one. 330 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 2: It would have been inappropriate in any circumstances. 331 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 3: I was pregnant betweens now and I just was thought 332 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 3: the whole thing was uncomfortable and absurd. 333 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 2: And then obviously our phone conversations took a turn for 334 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 2: the threatening. So I did not see the chart, but 335 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 2: I could see why other people right might have found 336 00:19:58,800 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 2: him charge. 337 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: Did he have a successor? I mean, not a child, 338 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: but did he have somebody who worked directly underneath him? 339 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: That would have been his fixer and his person besides 340 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: his lane. 341 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. 342 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 2: Well, I think, you know, part of the tragedy of this, 343 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 2: right is that there were that he did have a 344 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 2: series of personal assistants who unfortunately were victims themselves and 345 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 2: then became his personal assistants. And this is why this 346 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 2: story is so complicated, because a lot of the names 347 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 2: that would be more public. 348 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 3: Are not. 349 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 2: So you know, there are in the names of a 350 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 2: lot of people that came up in Gilenn Maxwell's trial, 351 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 2: a lot of women who were in the circle of recruitment, 352 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 2: but because they initially were Epstein were Epstein's victims themselves, 353 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 2: you know, they they were not sort of publicly outed 354 00:20:59,359 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 2: as it were. 355 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: The I want to go to the Trump administration's decision 356 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: not to release the file, which I mean they're saying 357 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: that there was no list. I think what they mean 358 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: is like, there's no excel list, because that would he 359 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: would of course, because it wouldn't be an Excel list. 360 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 3: No. 361 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 2: I mean, if jeff Ycine can barely put it together, 362 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 2: get you hold it together to send an email, he's 363 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 2: not going to have. 364 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 3: An Excel list. 365 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: So but I think a question for a lot of 366 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: people come into Jeffrey Epstein's foreign dealings. He was very 367 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: close to the former Prime Minister of Israel, he was 368 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: close to the Saudi Prince. He was close to various 369 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 1: African dictators, to the British royal family, to American presidents, 370 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: to leaders all around the globe. Two things that strike 371 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: me is one, why hasn't any country seemingly done this 372 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: investigation into his money and his other stuff. And secondly, 373 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: was is it possible that he was an agent for Israel? 374 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 2: Well, the other countries wouldn't have done an investigation into 375 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 2: his money because why would they. You know, the only 376 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 2: people who probably want to know where Jeffrey Epstein's money 377 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 2: is are the people who he defrauded. And I go 378 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 2: back to my earliest statement that he made to me. 379 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 2: Rich people don't like to admit if they've been defrauded 380 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:29,479 Speaker 2: because it makes them look stupid. So you know, if 381 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 2: he promised people, which I'm sure he did, that he 382 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 2: would put. 383 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 3: Money their money offshore. 384 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 2: For tax purposes or whatever other purposes, and now they're 385 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 2: missing it, you're not likely to hear about it. Remember, 386 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 2: Les Wexner, his biggest client, never came forward and said 387 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 2: that Jeffrey Epstein had taken money from him until after 388 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein was dead and les Wexner was in the crosshairs. 389 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 2: So I think it's really important, you know, important fact 390 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 2: to remember that. 391 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 3: And what was your oh, the agent for Israel? 392 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, Robert Maxwell was unquestionably an agent for 393 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 2: Israel Glen's father, which is why he's buried in the 394 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 2: Mount of Olives. Okay, Jeffrey Epstein, as you've mentioned, had 395 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 2: access to Israeli's in powerful positions and he knew them well. 396 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 2: He also was very immersed in the what I would 397 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 2: call the Israeli establishment in America. 398 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 3: Yes, but was he on the payroll of israel. 399 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 2: I? 400 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 3: Think? 401 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 2: You know, my reporting suggests probably not, you know, I mean. 402 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 3: But there are a lot of people who act as. 403 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 2: Influencers, passes of information, you know, who are not typically 404 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 2: on a government payroll. 405 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 3: He didn't need to be on a government payroll. 406 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: He was. 407 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,959 Speaker 2: Paid by the richest you know, Zionist in this country, 408 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 2: Leslie Wexner. So you know that again and go back 409 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 2: to soft power. That's kind of how soft power works. 410 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 2: I mean, Jeffrey Epstein was immersed in high level information 411 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 2: just as Robert Maxwell had been, and he probably chose 412 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 2: what to do with that. But you know, again go 413 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 2: back to the emails with Jess Daily. They were very, 414 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 2: very instructive as to how he name dropped to suit 415 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 2: his purposes. And you know how you know, on the 416 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 2: one hand, he was sort of dangling carrots in front 417 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,919 Speaker 2: of Jess Daily, but at the same time Jess Daily 418 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 2: was inadvertently confiding also of information about the inner workings 419 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 2: of JP Morgan that they should not have been doing. 420 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: So was he so in your mind? And this is 421 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:08,679 Speaker 1: my last question where I got to Europe? But in 422 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: your mind, was he just somebody who was, for lack 423 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: of a better term, a brilliant chess player, playing everybody 424 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: and knowing what everyone's weakness was. And there wasn't a 425 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 1: bigger person behind him or a group of entities who 426 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 1: are using him to procure information with other wealthy people, 427 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 1: like a blackmail list for the purposes of another country 428 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: or anything. 429 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 2: I'm not sure about the blackmail list. He definitely was 430 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 2: a very clever chess player, and the problem is he 431 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 2: was he. 432 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: Sure the blackmail list exists or that he was blackmail 433 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:43,360 Speaker 1: anybody to begin with? 434 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 2: You know that that is one of the great questions. 435 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 2: I mean, the only thing that makes me hesitate about 436 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 2: the blackmail list is that. 437 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 3: These guys. 438 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 2: Other than Les Weisner and you know that stayed I 439 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 2: mean and actually Donald Trump stayed in his orbit. And 440 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:11,120 Speaker 2: typically if someone's blackmailing you, you run right as far 441 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 2: as possible, and with a very with those two exceptions, 442 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 2: people didn't. 443 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: So your new book, The Idaho for is about the 444 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: murder case in Moscow, Idaho, that was four young women, sorry, 445 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: three young women and a man were brutally murdered in 446 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: an attack by a knife by by a killer in 447 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,160 Speaker 1: the middle of the night. There's a lot of questions 448 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: ongoing in this case, like motive for example, that I 449 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: still don't understand. Can you go into the brief overline 450 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: of your book and what you've explored in this in 451 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: this book? 452 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 3: Sure? So. 453 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 4: It is the story of the murders, it's the story 454 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,640 Speaker 4: of the victims the for you know, really going into 455 00:26:54,640 --> 00:27:01,120 Speaker 4: their lives and hopefully keeping them alive and readers minds. 456 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 2: It's the story of the murderer in a way that 457 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 2: I think nobody has detailed yet. And it's also the 458 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 2: story of the political and social tensions in the town 459 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 2: where this happened and in the state of Idaho. And 460 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 2: it's a story about the negative side of the Internet. 461 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 3: On all sorts of levels. 462 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,199 Speaker 2: I mean, the murderer, you know, the book sort of 463 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 2: takes pains to show, is I think a construct of 464 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 2: the dark. 465 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 3: Corners of the Internet. 466 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 2: He clearly became, you know, was a frustrated what they 467 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 2: call inceel involuntary celibate. 468 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 3: Whose rage was fueled by that world. 469 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: Well, he was very overweight and he lost a lot 470 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: of weight, yes, And he was studying serial killers, was 471 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 1: he not, Yes, he was. 472 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 3: Exactly he studied serial colors. 473 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 2: He's definitely was exposed to the videos, or that Elliott Roger, 474 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,360 Speaker 2: who's kind of like a cult hero of this the 475 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 2: insul movement, who was also who was a college student 476 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 2: when he committed a mass murder suicide that was a 477 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 2: deliberate act of vengeance against all the sorority women who 478 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 2: had rejected him. And Elliott Roger made a series of 479 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 2: videos in the hills of Santa Barbara sitting in his 480 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 2: black BMW saying I'm now going to go out and 481 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 2: kill these women who have turned me down. And he 482 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 2: sent this video to his therapist. He sent it to 483 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 2: his mother two minutes before he went out and did 484 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 2: exactly that. And there are parallels with Elliott Roger, who 485 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 2: plat you know, who also left behind a manifesto which 486 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 2: was a sort of memoir of his life. 487 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 3: There are parallels. 488 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: The killer left a roommate alive and she passed her 489 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: and she was all identify as bushy eyebrows. Why is there? 490 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: Did he target these girls? And I mean, I think 491 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: this guy would think. 492 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 2: What the what the friends, the best friends are the victims, 493 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 2: and what the families believe? And what makes the most 494 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 2: sense to me, having sort of tried to go back 495 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 2: and trace Brian Coburger's footsteps, is that he was targeting. 496 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 3: One of them. He was targeting Maddie Mogan. 497 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 2: And I say that because you know, the police have 498 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 2: evidence that his car was in the neighborhood twelve times 499 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 2: that you know, And if you go to the area 500 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 2: of the house, there's only really one place that you 501 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 2: can park your car and look at it, and there's 502 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 2: only really one window you can see into, and it 503 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 2: is that of Maddie Mogan's and the room that he 504 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 2: met he went straight to the night of the murders 505 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 2: was Maddie Mogan. And by the way, Elliott Roger wrote 506 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 2: at length about he had had one friend who was 507 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 2: a woman called Maddie and he was very he was 508 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 2: furious with her for rejecting him. So that that's a 509 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 2: parallel that may or may not beat matter. But you know, 510 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 2: Maddie Mogan was asleep in her bed. It was complete 511 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 2: chance that her best friend, Katie Gonzalvez was also there. 512 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 2: Katie Gonzalvez had already moved out of the house, was 513 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 2: living at home. She had just come into town that 514 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 2: one day to show Maddie Mogan her new car. So 515 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 2: one has to believe that, you know, And what's you know, 516 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 2: there's a line in the book that now the Gonzalves 517 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 2: family have gone public about that. Kaylie woke up and 518 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 2: struggled the Brian Coberger would then have had to come 519 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 2: down the stairs to leave the house to the next floor, 520 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 2: and that, unfortunately, is where Xana Carnodle's room was. And 521 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 2: tragically she was still up and awake because she had 522 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 2: just ordered a door dash deliver it really, which had 523 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 2: just arrived at four in the morning, which is something 524 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 2: she did very frequently. I mean, she was known to 525 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 2: do that and had been a very big party day 526 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 2: at the University of vide Her had been a football 527 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 2: game day, and. 528 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 3: So unfortunately she was up. 529 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 2: And about and the signs, you know, she was found 530 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 2: with very defensive wounds on her hands. 531 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 3: Sort of having fallen backward. 532 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 2: Into the room. Her boyfriend, Ethan was facing the wall 533 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 2: in his bed. He was a very very tall, handsome, 534 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 2: athletic young man. So, I mean it would appear it 535 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 2: would appear that, you know, Xana was up and fort 536 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 2: coburger and then he saw this big man, I mean, 537 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 2: albeit sleeping, but he was Ethan Chapin was a big, 538 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 2: big guy. And then he goes down, He goes down, 539 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 2: he he you know, he passes Dylan Mortensen, who's got 540 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 2: her door open just a crack. 541 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 3: Why does he ignore her and turn around and force 542 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 3: the issue? 543 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 2: You know what, What's what somebody in law enforcement said 544 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 2: to me, is that given that, you know, if if 545 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 2: one assumes that he went in there intending to kill 546 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 2: one person and wound up killing for that that the physical. 547 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 3: It's hot, you know, that would have been very draining. 548 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: Do you think that he intended to become a serial killer? 549 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: I mean, if that, if he had not been caught 550 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: this time. Do you think that he were kill. 551 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 3: Almost the perfect crime. 552 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 2: His only mistake was to leave the knife sheath by 553 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 2: the bed of Maddie Morgan and Kayleie Gonzalvez. And you know, 554 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 2: I mean in the book, I take you through the 555 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 2: investigation and police chief of Moscow was very generous with 556 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 2: this time to me, and it becomes very clear that 557 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 2: were it not in fact that he had There was 558 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 2: a trace of DNA left on the knife sheath. 559 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: It was on like the metal button part of it. 560 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that were it not for the. 561 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 2: Fact that now there is this new methodology of it 562 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 2: what they call investigative genetic genealogy where they use you know, 563 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 2: websites like ancestry and me ancestry dot com. Rather they 564 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 2: can go back and they can construct a family tree 565 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 2: from the smallest piece of DNA. I mean that has 566 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 2: revolutionized called cases. But in this case, there was really 567 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 2: nothing else. They couldn't see the car clearly, they never 568 00:33:54,960 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 2: found a murder weapon. Yeah, there was nothing else until 569 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 2: until after about six weeks that the DNA they were 570 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 2: able to reconstruct the family tree. And then it's then 571 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 2: they looked at who with the last name coburger would 572 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:12,879 Speaker 2: have been in the area and then they could run 573 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 2: his driver's license and all the rest of it. 574 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: They really didn't have anything, so he learned a lot 575 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: from the serial killers. 576 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 3: I guess well, you know, listen, he was doing a 577 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 3: PhD in criminology. 578 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 2: I mean what the book also, I think shows is 579 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 2: his descent into despair. You know, he had he had 580 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 2: hauled himself up from being, as you say, the very 581 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:38,720 Speaker 2: overweight loner on the spectrum, the kid who had no friends, 582 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 2: who then had a heroin addiction. He had managed to 583 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 2: turn his life around and now here he is the 584 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 2: other you know, far away from Pennsylvania where he grew up, 585 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 2: doing this PhD in criminology. But it all goes wrong 586 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 2: because of his heinous views of women, which he's very 587 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:57,760 Speaker 2: vocal about. 588 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 3: He sort of can't keep them to himself. 589 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 2: And it gets him into all sorts of trouble, and 590 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 2: very rapidly, it's very clear he's going to lose his 591 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,320 Speaker 2: funding and teaching position at Washington State Universities, that everything 592 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,800 Speaker 2: he's battled for is coming down around him. And he 593 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 2: has this belief, you know, he tells the classmate, I 594 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 2: can get any woman I want which was of course 595 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 2: patently untrue. So you know, it's a horrific set of 596 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 2: circumstances all coming together, and it does raise questions run 597 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 2: about them, you know, about the First Amendment because had 598 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 2: this thing gone to trial, I mean, I know that 599 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 2: the victims' families wanted to know more about the role 600 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,799 Speaker 2: of Washington State University where he was teaching and where 601 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:50,320 Speaker 2: he clearly there were red flags. And you know, again 602 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,720 Speaker 2: you come back to this question when is free speech 603 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 2: hates speech? And I think that the victims families that's 604 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 2: one question they won't get answers to now that he's 605 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 2: played guilty and there's no trial. 606 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 1: Well, the book is called The Idaho for It is 607 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: available wherever books are sold. I've read Vicki's books in 608 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: the past, so I've not read this one yet. And 609 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 1: she is a fabulous, fabulous writer. You wrote this one, 610 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 1: James Patterson, right, yes, yes, I'm sure it's. 611 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 3: Going to be a pace from him. It was a 612 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 3: great collaboration. 613 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: Well, she's a brilliant writer. Check it out if you 614 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: love true crime. I'm going to absolutely check it out. 615 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: Thank you for being on this podcast. 616 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. 617 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 2: Ryan. 618 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: Hey, we'll be right back after this and now for 619 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 1: the Ask Me Anything segment of this podcast. If you 620 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: want a part of the Ask Me Anything segment, please 621 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: email me Ryan at Numbers gamepodcast dot com. That's Ryan 622 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: at Numbers gamepodcast dot com. So this question comes from Brock. 623 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: He says, Hey, Ryan. First of all, I was obsessed 624 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,280 Speaker 1: with your appearance on clam buckling up to the election. 625 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 1: I love geeking out with you on the numbers and everything, 626 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: and now I listen to every single in your podcasts. 627 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Rock. I can't overstate that thank you. 628 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,280 Speaker 1: I heard you mentioned ADHD. In my entire fe family 629 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 1: has ADHD. I always tell my daughter that is a 630 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: superpower to embrace the creativity and excitement we bring to 631 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: the world with our neurodivergent brains. I've heard you mentioned 632 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,719 Speaker 1: a couple of times autistic thus and such as ADHD, 633 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 1: and I'm curious if you're on the spectrum yourself and 634 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: have ADHD and those extra superpowers. Thank you so much. Okay, Brock, 635 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: I don't mean to laugh. I just this is the 636 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 1: first time I'm reading the email. I am not on 637 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,800 Speaker 1: the spectrum. Wish I could claim that as an excuse 638 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: sometimes for saying what I think. But no, I'm not 639 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: on the spectrum. I've never been testing the spectrum. I 640 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,800 Speaker 1: was tested in high school because I was failing basically 641 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 1: every subject but the subjects that I cared about. I 642 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: had over a one hundred point grade point average. And 643 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,719 Speaker 1: so it was like extremes. And they took me as St. 644 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 1: Francis Prep. They took me to as a psychiatrist or 645 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 1: whatever to test my IQ. I guess was handicapped. I 646 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: don't know. I'm not gonna say, but they brought me 647 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: to me tested my IQ, and my IQ was I'm 648 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,319 Speaker 1: not bragging, but it was high. It was one forty two. 649 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,320 Speaker 1: And so they said, there's no way that this person is, 650 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: you know, not able to pass grades because they're slow 651 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,399 Speaker 1: or because they're handicapped or whatever. There there's something going 652 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 1: on here. So they because I had extreme levels of 653 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,920 Speaker 1: excitement and boredom and my numbers would fly off and 654 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: on the charts, they diagnosed me with ADHD. They gave 655 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 1: me medication. I took it one time and I just said, 656 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 1: I'm not doing this anymore. I was very you know, 657 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 1: I was always a pain for everybody in my whole 658 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 1: entire life. But but that was that was how that happened, 659 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: and I do have so I've been dying as ADHD. 660 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,359 Speaker 1: I have never had it treated as far as medication goes. 661 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: I write lists every moment of every day. I write 662 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 1: lists constantly to keep myself on track. I will often 663 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 1: take on ten projects at the same time because I 664 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: have to take a break from one and go to 665 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 1: the other, which probably takes a lot more time than 666 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 1: it should to get ordinary things done. I have relatives 667 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 1: who also have ADHD, and they do things like they 668 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 1: could work and sit in one place for nine hours 669 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: and then they can't do the laundry because they can't operate. 670 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 1: They can't operate in certain things and they can operate 671 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 1: in other things. It's it is actually I know it's 672 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 1: a running joke and everyone has ADHD. There are times 673 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,839 Speaker 1: it is a really big struggle. And I will say, 674 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,400 Speaker 1: since technology is a bigger and bigger partner life, it 675 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: is a bigger and bigger struggle. It is not easy 676 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,840 Speaker 1: to deal with sometimes it actually is definitely uh is 677 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: definitely hard. But I you know, there have been there 678 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 1: have been people in history who have had it way 679 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: harder than I have been, who have overcome extremely difficult odds. 680 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,279 Speaker 1: So I don't count it as a you know, disability 681 00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 1: or as anything else. I just think that it's one 682 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:05,359 Speaker 1: part of me that makes me function, and I've learned 683 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 1: to kind of operate within it. I don't know, I 684 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: guess it's it's not like the most medically knowledgeable answer, 685 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 1: but I just this is how I have managed to operate. 686 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 1: I write lists, like you know, for everything all the 687 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,719 Speaker 1: time in my sleep, morning, noon, and night. And I 688 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 1: know if I want to do something like read, I 689 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 1: have to dedicate time away from all technological things in 690 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,840 Speaker 1: the morning because I can't really focus in the evening. 691 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: And I've also take power naps. I take twenty minute naps, 692 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,359 Speaker 1: like around four o'clock or three o'clock. I will take 693 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,359 Speaker 1: a twenty minute power like literally just twenty minutes. I'm 694 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: totally fine. It's like completely re energized. So that's how 695 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 1: I've learned to operate it. I don't take medication, and 696 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,320 Speaker 1: I am i e healthy, but I don't like I 697 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: don't know if I've read die number two of my 698 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:52,399 Speaker 1: system or anything like that. I just don't. I don't 699 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:56,160 Speaker 1: have a lot of sugar, and I go to the 700 00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 1: gym pretty regularly, despite how having fortunes would never know 701 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: that about me any I know that this is the 702 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,120 Speaker 1: ADHD working right now. I'm just going to what do 703 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,520 Speaker 1: I do to make myself healthier? But no, I'm not 704 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: on the spectrum. Thank you for listening, though, Brock, I 705 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,719 Speaker 1: really appreciate it, and I appreciate to anyone else who 706 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,439 Speaker 1: as ADHD is living with it and takes the time 707 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 1: to listen to this podcast. I appreciate you so much, 708 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: and yes, your daughter should lean in to her neurodivergent 709 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 1: brain and all the special things that come with it. 710 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:27,640 Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much for listening. Please like and 711 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: subscribe on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get 712 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: your podcast. See you next time.