WEBVTT - Retiring on the Reg w/ Jillian Johnsrud #815 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:01.440 Welcome to Had of Money. 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:04.120 I'm Joel and I am Matt, and today we're talking 0:00:04.160 --> 0:00:08.000 about why you should retire on the reg with Jillian John's. 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:28.320 Rude Yeah, you know, I think one of the biggest 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:31.160 hurdles to overcome here in the United States, but not 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:33.120 just like in our country, but also even for regular 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:37.120 listeners on the podcast is the word retirement, because, like, 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:39.360 what do you think of when you hear that someone 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:42.200 is retiring, Like I know, I think of someone who's 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.360 maybe a bit older, they're at least past their prime, 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:48.040 They've put in several decades of hard work and now 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:51.640 they're just totally hanging it up. And then on top 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:54.080 of that, if you attempt to picture yourself in that situation, 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:56.960 I think it's often so far away that it's difficult 0:00:57.000 --> 0:01:00.880 to even have any connection to that future version of yourself. 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:03.200 But these are the types of problems that our friend 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:06.480 Jillian loves to help walk folks through. She writes over 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:10.600 at retire often dot com, she hosts podcast by the 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:14.040 same name, and as a mother of a bunch of children, 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:17.080 Jillian herself grew up in poverty. She wants folks to 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.000 know that many retirement is more of a possibility than 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:23.120 you think. And so we're excited to talk about retiring 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:25.280 on the RAG. We're excited to talk about sabbaticals with 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:28.360 Jillian today. Jillian, thank you for joining the podcast. 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:29.880 I'm excited to be here. 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:30.800 Thanks. 0:01:31.120 --> 0:01:33.440 We're excited to have you back. We were just talking 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:36.279 about how you were I think our first for real guests, 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:38.080 Uh huh had the money back in the day. This 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:42.039 was many, many years ago. Yeah, so it's fun to 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:44.640 get to talk to you again like this. But the 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:49.080 first question we won't link to that episode. I'm sure 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:51.240 Jillian had a lot of good things to say, but yeah, yeah, 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:52.040 I'm sure she did. 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:55.400 But just given awkward, man, we were so fresh and 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.320 green at that point that it pains me to even 0:01:58.360 --> 0:01:59.560 think about that conversation. 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:00.640 Hure percentury. 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:02.600 So, Jilly, I don't even remember what you said when 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:04.160 we asked you this question, and I'm pretty sure we're 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:05.320 asking this question even if. 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:06.480 I don't even know if you want I don't even know. 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:09.160 But the question we ask now everybody who comes on 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:11.360 the show is what's your craft beer equivalent? What is 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:14.280 it that you are spending more money on than some 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:17.000 people would think is sane? While you're being smart and 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:18.959 saving and investing for your future at the same time. 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:24.480 Yeah, that's gardening. It's plants. I go to nurseries and 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:28.440 home depot and lows and it's like it's pretend money. 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:30.799 It might as well be monopoly money. I don't even 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:35.720 think of it as real. The only limitation that I 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:38.240 put on myself when it comes to plants is I 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:40.880 have to eventually be able to plant them in the ground. 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:45.000 So like my physical labor is kind of the parameters 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:48.560 of how many how many plants I purchase. It's also 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:52.600 my stress purchasing, Like if I'm having a really bad week, 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:57.160 I go and buy seeds online or the I order trees. 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:01.840 It's also, yeah, kind of my impulse stress purchase. 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:05.280 So, speaking of seeds, have you ever heard of or 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.079 ordered from, or been to. I think it's called Bakersfield 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:09.960 Seed Bank or something like that. 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:10.520 It's out in. 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:14.360 California and literally Kate and I were getting into gardening 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:15.640 when we were out there on a road trip and 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:18.240 it was literally an old timey bank. It's like this 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:22.320 like picture green gots that they converted into a seed bank, 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:24.800 and it was goblins run things there too. Yeah, yeah, 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:28.400 goblins with green pounds. But they've got like a lot 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:30.400 of heirloom varieties and stuff like that. 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:33.280 I was on my phone yesterday and my mom's like, 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:35.120 are you looking at sheds? I was like, no, this 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:38.720 is my secret Instagram account that is just entirely plants 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:43.160 and gardeners. That's that's all I've curated over here. 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:44.840 I love it. I love it. Okay. 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.360 I feel like at least my wife and you, Jillian 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:49.440 could talk about plants all day. 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:51.120 For sure. I certainly help her out. I think I 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:52.080 think some of the bigger holes. 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:55.480 But we're going to talk about retiring, and let's start 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:59.440 with definitions. Retiring often that is such a passion of yours, 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:00.560 But what exact fact is it? 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:01.240 Like what do you. 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:06.120 Define as a the frequency of retiring, and like what 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:08.920 do you how do you define many retirements specifically. 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:12.600 Especially because vacations, right, that's vacation many retirement. 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:15.680 Yeah, So I have kind of three parameters for what 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:20.120 classifies as a mini retirement, and I use the terms interchangeably. 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:24.359 Whether it's many retirements, sabbatical, career break, hiatus. All of 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:27.960 them are good. But the three things is that it's 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:32.200 a month or longer you're stepping away from your primary 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:35.960 career to focus on something that really matters to you. 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:40.120 And if you have those three elements, for my own 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.000 personal definition, I consider that a mini retirement. 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:47.240 Okay, So a vacation typically in the US at least 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:49.800 is like a week once a year, maybe twice a 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:52.719 year if you're one of the lucky folks. We Matt 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:54.680 and I lament about the statistics that most people don't 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:57.119 take all their vacation time. It's really it's really sad. 0:04:57.560 --> 0:04:59.760 And if it's less, if it's a short period of time, 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:02.719 that typically means that you're not disconnecting from work in 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:05.080 the way you need to to kind of reset your 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:07.159 brain and get some actual rest. So is that part 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:09.920 of why the month is such an important parameter a 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:10.599 month or longer. 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:16.920 Yeah, there's a kind of physical down shift to help 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:19.559 people get into that state of rest. And I find 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:23.080 when people are really burned out, you know, it's adrenaline 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.200 and it's cortisol, and they're running at this heightened state. 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:31.200 And just like taking caffeine, the minute you stop drinking 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:34.840 your coffee, the caffeine does not leave your system. You know, 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:39.080 there's a time period before you kind of start to 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:42.760 settle down. And it's the same with work. The minute 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:47.600 you walk out of the office, you're not completely self regulated. 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:51.240 So I find usually around week two or week three 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.880 people really start to relax and settle in. But a 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:59.080 month is also enough time to do something really significant 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:01.279 and interesting in with your time. 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:04.599 So first of all, I love that you've defined the 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:06.880 fact that there's like a half life to your work. 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:08.960 Once you step away from it, just like there is 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:09.480 with Cavin. 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:12.400 But on your podcast, like you've interviewed a whole lot 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:16.320 of folks about this, and I'm curious, like, what have 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:18.320 those folks mentioned as being I guess that maybe the 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:22.120 best part of their time stepping away, or maybe could 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:26.520 you share some good, just encouraging or inspirational examples of 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:28.400 what some folks were able to accomplish, or maybe some 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:30.960 life decisions that were made, or maybe they found. 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:32.400 Themselves out of just like kind of fork in the road. 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:35.600 I would love to for you to share some examples 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:37.840 from the folks that you've talked with on your podcast. 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:41.160 Yeah. Absolutely, I have my podcast. I do one on 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:43.279 one end group coaching, so I get to have lots 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:46.520 and lots of these conversations and I always encourage people 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:50.400 to pick kind of three intentions or three goals for 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:53.680 their time, because there can be a temptation of I 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:56.440 have this huge backlog of things, and I'm going to 0:06:56.480 --> 0:07:00.599 accomplish thirty different things during this time off, and because 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:04.000 you don't have that focus, none of it really feels 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:07.679 like you made good progress or really significant. So pick 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:10.480 kind of three. I would say the top ones are 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:14.360 extended travel, you know, things that you can't really do 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.800 in a four day or seven day vacation. I met 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:21.080 a couple ones who were biking through Croatia, like an 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:23.560 amazing trip, but it's not a four day weekend travel. 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:28.000 Extended travel, it's not doing something really cool and interesting 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:31.960 with their kids, having real quality time. You know. I 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:35.040 did a ten week trip in a pop up camper 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:37.760 through ten national parks with my kid. I was a 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:40.600 few years ago. There again, not something I can fit 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:46.160 in into two weeks vacation, but really significant. In America, 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:51.560 recovering from burnout rest burnout's a massive issue, so that 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:55.240 hits the top of a lot of people's priority focusing 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.520 on their health, whether that's losing weight or training for 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:03.400 a marathon, or even their mental health. You know, trying 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:05.760 to go to therapy and get some of that stuff 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:09.360 unpacked can be really helpful. A lot of people use 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:13.720 it for a career transition too, you know, they're in 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:16.040 that midpoint to their career where they're like, wait, am 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:17.680 I really going to do this for the rest of 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:21.240 my life? Like? Do I have another twenty years of 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:24.160 this in me? But when you're burned out and when 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:28.920 you're overwhelmed with work, it's really hard to imagine what 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:32.520 else is even out there, what else might you enjoy? 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:35.840 And so they need kind of that decompression time to 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:40.800 recover from burnout, to just have the creativity to explore 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:41.640 new options. 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:44.880 So you kind of hinted at our work obsessed culture, 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:48.160 and it's just kind of a barrier, I would think, 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.120 just convincing people that this is a good idea. When 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:54.319 we're on this kind of Hampshire wheel merry go round, 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:57.840 it's kind of hard to just jump off. So do 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.920 you find that as an obstacle trying to people understand 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.480 that this is as a necessity in the first place. 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:07.200 You know, I think a lot of people intuitively know 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:10.679 that they need a break or that they want to break. 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:14.800 It's not hard to convince someone of like, hey, would 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.640 you like to spend a month in France? Or you know, 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:20.880 do you do you want to buy a bike right 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:24.280 across the country or build out your garden for a month, 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:28.000 you know, whatever people are passionate about. And the reality is, 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:33.560 with our modern work culture, those hobbies, those interests, those 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:36.079 things that we want to pursue, those things that matter 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:41.400 to us sometimes get entirely squeezed out of life. There's 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:44.960 just not enough time. There's not enough hours in the day, 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:49.880 there's not enough vacation days to do those in meaningful ways, 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:54.720 which starts to exasperate this problem in that our work 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:57.960 occupies so much of our life that it becomes so 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:01.160 much of our identity and it's tough to build an 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:03.160 identity outside of work. 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.160 Yeah, I completely agree. We talk about this all the time. 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:08.960 How gosh, this makes me even think of something I 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:12.360 read recently too about work crushes and how they're like 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:14.640 very common because of course, when you are spending so 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:16.839 much time at work, it's like you have individuals that 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:19.959 you're drawn to. But that's like a whole other conversation. 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:23.720 Well, there's usually rules about that not dating in the workplace, 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:24.360 and people are like. 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:25.600 What am I supposed to do? This is where I'm 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:26.160 spending most. 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:27.720 Of the You're spending all your time there, and so 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:30.839 it makes sense that, like relationally and emotionally, you feel 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:33.600 pulled in that direction. But of course when it comes 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:35.840 to your skill sets and the things that you are 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:37.720 spending your time doing, it makes sense that you get 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:40.160 really good at doing your job, and so it's hard 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:44.440 to disentangle like our identity from the work that we're doing. 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:46.360 But like, I think one of the reasons folks have 0:10:46.400 --> 0:10:49.199 a hard time pulling away is because they're practically thinking, well, 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:51.240 if I prioritize a many retirement, that's going to hurt 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:53.840 my career. It's going to hurt my earning potential. What 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:57.040 would you say to somebody who's who's making that argument, 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:59.760 Because I don't know, maybe I'm leading the witness here, 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:02.440 but almost feel like that there's an argument to be 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:05.440 made for the opposite that perhaps because I mean, you've 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:09.640 already mentioned how they can foster career transition, but just 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:12.480 talk to us about that about career potential or just 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.079 the career path that someone might be on and trying 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:16.640 to escape that hamster wheel. 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:21.240 Yeah, it's interesting because it is a little counterintuitive, but 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.520 over and over I've seen the pattern of a mini 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:32.360 retirement accelerating their professional growth and accelerating their financial progress, 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:37.400 which it does feel a little counterintuitive, but on the 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:41.080 professional side, I think it's I think it's pretty well 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:43.480 known that one of the best ways to get a 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:47.560 twenty to thirty percent raise is to switch jobs, and 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:53.040 a mini retirement provides the perfect motivation and kind of 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:57.520 the perfect rest opportunity in between those jobs. So, especially 0:11:57.520 --> 0:11:59.199 if you're early in your career and you're going to 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:02.200 be switching company every three or four years, that's a 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.520 perfect little little moment in time that you can take 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:08.920 a month or two to focus on these other areas 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:12.720 of your life. And there's a really interesting phenomenon that 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:16.000 I never would have guessed until I started having hundreds 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:21.120 of conversations with people about this. But it makes people 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:28.200 really uncomfortable when you're not working. There's something about the 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:32.520 work culture that it just feels wrong you not working, 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:37.640 them still working and you not working is very, very uncomfortable, 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:42.800 and sometimes it's subconscious. But when you step away from 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:46.880 a job and you don't jump into a brand new job, 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:50.560 a whole bunch of people start trying to get you 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:54.960 a job. They try to like fix this, whether you 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:58.560 want them to or not. Early retirees experience us all 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:00.880 of the time when like everyone and their network's trying 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:05.679 to suck them back into corporate life. But there's ways 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:09.480 that you can foster that as well, and oftentimes people 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:13.959 get much better jobs, I think because that cognitive loop 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:18.800 is open and where when jobs come open, they might 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:21.360 not think of you if you're happy at a company, 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:25.240 but if they're like, oh, isn't Joel off doing that thing? 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:28.760 What's he doing? He's in Europe right, he probably wants 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:30.640 to get back to work. Maybe we should give him 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.880 a call, and so you can kind of encourage his 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:39.280 natural phenomenon, and people oftentimes get much more interesting jobs, 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:44.439 jobs that they're better suited for, and better paying jobs. 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:49.320 I hung out with a friend in DC who had 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:54.320 just finished a mini retirement and two cool things about 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:58.720 this story. One, when he came back to work to 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:02.400 his new job, he had a fifty percent raise over 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:05.640 his previous job. Wow, he had taken a year off. 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:08.880 His sign on bonus covered like half of the cost 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:12.160 of his mani retirement. But the other thing was interesting 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:15.560 during that time off, he rested, he recovered, he did hobbies, 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:18.800 all of that, but he also explored other career options 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:22.160 and then started taking classes and getting the certifications that 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:25.800 he would need to pivot into a new career and 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:28.160 did it well enough that he got a job offer 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:32.120 in this new career. Ultimately, he decided to go back 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:35.360 to his previous career. But he's like, yeah, you know, 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:36.960 I might be here for a year or two and 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:39.720 then maybe I will switch careers. Like now I know 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:41.080 I can do this. 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:43.840 That's cool. Kind of proved it to himself a little bit. 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:46.440 Yeah, and I love what you said too, just how well, 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:48.440 first of all, it would be me making the calls 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:50.640 to Joel, just like, dude, you haven't showed up to 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:52.880 work in like three months, Like what's the deal. 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:54.760 Here, buddy? And I wouldn't take his calls. 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:57.880 But that being said, when he did come back, like 0:14:57.960 --> 0:14:59.920 how interesting of a conversation? 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:00.520 What do we have? 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:02.600 Like I guess I like the part of it too 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:05.320 where it's almost like this forbidden it's this forbidden fruit 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:07.640 that before I didn't really care, but now that I 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:09.360 can't have you, I want to like we got to, 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:10.600 but it's. 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:13.480 Almost like kind of how comedians and musicians need to 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:15.840 live life in order to make good content right like, 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:19.880 and I think the same is true for like life 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.880 right to be appealing in so many of those ways, 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.160 you have to go live a little or you just 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:28.400 become the person who knows how to do the basic 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:31.360 math and not kind of the interesting creative parts of 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:31.960 a job. 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:35.680 So I see a lot of benefit in that. I'm curious, too, Gilly. 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:40.560 You, what about our consumption culture, how does that fuel 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:43.960 our inability to take time off? Because think about it, 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:47.120 we see the stats people living paycheck to paycheck, even 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:50.840 people who make six plus figures. Is just kind of 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:52.800 the fact that we don't know how to rein in 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:54.680 our spending. Does that prevent us from having some of 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:57.360 that financial flexibility to take an extended period of time off. 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:00.320 So one of the things that I talk about in 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:06.800 my group coaching is this time luxury continuum and the 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:11.440 phenomenon that if you have less time, you tend to 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:15.800 want more luxury, but if you have more time, you 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:20.400 don't really need as much luxury. And so I think 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:23.880 it's it ties in with the consumption in that when 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:27.320 we have so little time, we have to spend so 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:33.480 much money on everything, on having groceries delivered, on convenience food, 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:37.920 on ordering new clothes online, Like every part of our 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.600 life gets more expensive, and when we travel, it gets 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:43.640 more expensive to do. You know, a five day trip 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:47.400 to Paris for a family of four is a huge cost, 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:52.360 probably a similar cost for a family of four to 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:56.680 live in France for a month, And so oftentimes when 0:16:56.680 --> 0:17:01.000 you have more time things aren't is expensive, And so 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:04.920 sometimes people try to extrapolate their vacation costs. While a 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:07.960 vacation costs me five thousand dollars a week, a month 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:10.840 long mini retirement will cost me twenty it will not 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:14.879 cost you twenty thousand dollars. Like because you don't have 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:17.800 to rush, you don't have to see three sights every day, 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:20.680 you don't have to eat out three meals a day 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:24.000 for the next thirty days in a row. Most people 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:26.760 don't want to eat out ninety meals in a row, 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:32.080 so the cost comes down because you can enjoy all 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:34.399 of the other elements of life. 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:36.960 I totally agree, and I think there's something to be 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:39.080 said to in the same way that we get sucked 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:42.480 into the work and that keeps us from being able 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:44.240 to being able to realize what it is that's making 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.600 us happy. Sometimes I think we get sucked into the 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:49.639 same consumption traps as well. That doesn't allow us to 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.040 look up from from the grind that we're living in 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:56.280 a day in and day out. Jillian, you, as well 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:58.720 as a lot of our friends, Joel and I were 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:00.880 all kind of a part of the fire community. Whether 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:04.560 or not we're like tangent to it or fully in 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:06.640 it or not, I guess maybe it depends on the year, 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:09.040 But I think there are a lot of folks within 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:12.840 that community that might say that a mini retirement, well, hey, 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:17.879 that's gonna that's gonna delay my ability to achieve full 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:21.200 financial independence. Fat fire. What would you say to those 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:24.560 folks who are instead of looking at retirement at age 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:27.479 sixty five, You know they've got the noble task of 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.199 maybe going after it by the age of forty or fifty, 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:32.560 but they're so fixated. 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:34.480 On their number. What would you say to those folks? 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:38.280 Yeah, this is a common hesitation, And honestly, I think 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:43.479 many retirements are the perfect compliment to retiring early. And 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:47.640 so's there's two kind of ways to look at this. One. 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:51.560 If you are early in your financial independence journey. Like 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.439 I said in the like the three qualifiers for what 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:56.320 a mini retirement is. One of them is stepping away 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.840 from your primary career. That doesn't mean that you have 0:18:59.880 --> 0:19:03.320 to do nothing. There were too many retirements that we 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:07.560 used to buy a rental property and to renovate it. 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:12.200 That was a big undertaking for us and it wasn't 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:15.120 something that we were able to do alongside our nine 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:18.560 to five careers. So we took these two small gaps 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:24.639 and that massively accelerated our path too five. Some people 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:28.040 use their mini retirement to start a side hustle, to 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.240 start a side project, to start kind of that business 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:33.679 that they've been thinking about but they just didn't have 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:36.919 the bandwidth to do it after work. And so you 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:40.920 can create additional sources of income. So, especially if you're 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:44.120 early in your career or early in your financial journey, 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:47.800 I would consider it doesn't have to be a beach 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:49.960 in the Caribbean for a month, like there's lots of 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:53.080 different things you can do with this time. But the 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:55.480 second for the second group, if you're because I've worked 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:57.680 with a lot of people who are like seventy percent 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:00.880 of the way to find eighty nine and it's like, ah, 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:02.880 do I really want to take a break? I could 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:05.000 just like keep my head down, push through for a 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:07.280 couple more years, and then I'm one hundred percent there. 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:14.080 But achieving financial independence is a little bit like driving 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:17.840 down the interstate eighty miles an hour. If you pop 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:21.240 that thing in reverse all at once, it's a little 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:25.560 bit of a tailspin. There's a whole bunch of things 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:31.040 that you maybe have not practiced or have kind of 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:35.879 set aside in your pursuit of financial independence. Maybe some 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:39.600 of those relationships, maybe some of those hobbies, those interests 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:44.639 that travel you've kind of postponed, thinking well, I'll just 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:47.359 really do all of that when I get to five. 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:53.199 And the reality is it's tough to change, like to 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:56.600 significantly change one thing in your life. It takes a 0:20:56.600 --> 0:20:58.720 lot of work and effort, and it's not always enjoyable. 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:04.440 If your plan is I'm going to change fifteen things 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:07.960 in my life as soon as I become fie, it's 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:12.000 a rough transition and it's very discouraging for a lot 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:16.000 of people. Fail even just like the failure rate of hobbies. 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:19.400 You know, you try a new hobby and not all 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:21.199 of them work out, Not all of them are what 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:24.520 you expect same of volunteering. So you go from a 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.400 career where you're very proficient and really good at everything 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:30.639 and very successful to a life where you're like mostly 0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:35.800 failing at stuff, and a lot of people it brings up, 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:39.520 you know, whether you retire at sixty five, whether you 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:43.560 retire early, sometimes even during a mini retirement. One of 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:46.280