1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I'm Akshatrati. This week rom coms, sitcoms, 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: and penshons. How often do you think about your pension 3 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 1: four oh one K or whatever it's called in your 4 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: part of the world. You know your retirement plan. If 5 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: you're lucky enough to have one, the chances are you 6 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: don't think about it very much, if at all. It's 7 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 1: a thing that just happens. A small sum is taken 8 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: out of your paycheck every month, and the savings grow 9 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: into a sizable pot that you can tap into sometime 10 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,919 Speaker 1: in the future. The pot grows not just because of 11 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: your continued contributions to it, but also because legions of 12 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: pension fund managers put your money to work, often by 13 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: buying shares in global companies. Add it all together and 14 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: there's some fifty trillion dollars hell in pensions. That sounds great. 15 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: Pensions have helped improve life in later years, But there's 16 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: a catch. There always is a good chunk of that 17 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: sum is invested in fossil fuel companies, helping them and 18 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: their emissions grow as well. 19 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 2: The why not moment has arrived. A lot of sustainable 20 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 2: pensions are making equal if not more. This is a 21 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:23,759 Speaker 2: way where you could say to someone you're worried about 22 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 2: the climate, here's a great, big thing you could do. 23 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: Richard Curtis is not a name you might associate with pensions. 24 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: He's best known as the screenwriter behind hit British comedies 25 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: like Mister Bean, Love Actually, and Bridget jones Diary. Richard 26 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: also founded an annual comedy TV show on the BBC 27 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,199 Speaker 1: called Comic Relief, which has raised more than one point 28 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: five billion pounds to combat poverty and famine around the 29 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: world over the past forty years. In twenty twenty, he 30 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: turned his attention to pensions. He co founded Make My 31 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: Money Matter, a campaign group dedicated to stopping pension funds 32 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: and banks from investing in fossil fields. I sat down 33 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: with Richard to ask him about how he went from 34 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: writing for the screen to making your retirement money green, 35 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: what can be done to stop greenwashing in the financial sector, 36 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: and whether he'll ever write a climate rom com Now. 37 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: You've written some incredibly popular films and series for Weddings 38 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 1: and a Funeral, Love Actually, Bridge Jones, Mister Bean, Blackadder, 39 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: but you're also behind one of the UK's biggest campaigns, 40 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 1: Comic Relief. 41 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been busier than I would have liked. 42 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: So how did you go from being a screenwriter to campaigning? 43 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,839 Speaker 2: It's an interesting thing because in a way, my sort 44 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 2: of argument about the climate crisis and trying to change 45 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: the world is, you know, use the situation you're in. 46 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 2: So I watched the Live Aid concert. 47 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 3: It's twelve noon in London, am in Philadelphia and around 48 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 3: the world it's time for Live Aid, sixteen hours of 49 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 3: live music, and I d a fun and relief in Africa. 50 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 2: That was an example of pop stars doing everything they could. 51 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 2: And I was working in comedy at the time, and 52 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 2: so I thought, go to the BBC, offer them a 53 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 2: fundraising show which is going to have five hours of 54 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 2: comedy in it. And then that has snowboard over the 55 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 2: years and we've done lots of other things, but basically 56 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 2: it was using the place I was, the job I did, 57 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 2: and then trying to raise as much money as possible 58 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 2: through it. And then you found it make my money matter. 59 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty, why did pensions become your area of interest? Well, 60 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 2: you see I did. I mean I worked on the 61 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 2: Live eight Concerts two thousand and five and Make Property 62 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 2: History campaign, so I was very interested in the sort 63 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 2: of a trade debt, the politics of fighting poverty rather 64 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 2: than just the charity of it. And then the SDGs started. 65 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: To in able development goals from the United Nates. 66 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 2: That's right, and a sort of planned for the world 67 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 2: which locks together climate, justice, development. And I kept on 68 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 2: making films which said, we need to turn the billions 69 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 2: into trillions. There's got to be more money going into 70 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 2: changing the world in various different ways. And then I 71 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 2: just started to hear some of the statistics about banks investment, 72 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 2: but particularly pensions. The world pension part which belongs to 73 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: the world, you know, yours and mine, is fifty one 74 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,919 Speaker 2: trillion of invested money. And if that could be invested in. 75 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,919 Speaker 1: The one trillion dollar dollars. 76 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 2: And if that could be invested in things which are 77 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 2: actually aiming to help on climate, help on equality, help 78 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 2: on justice. What an amazing there. The trillions were so 79 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 2: I thought, Comic Relief has raised you know, one point 80 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 2: five billion and thirty five years, and yet this campaign, 81 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 2: My Money Matter, has helped to move one point three 82 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 2: trillion pounds in the course of two and a half years. 83 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: Now on the website you highlight a study that says 84 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: making your pension green it's twenty one times more powerful 85 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 1: than cutting your carbon through giving up flying, going vegetarian, 86 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: or switching energy providers. Why is greening your pensions so significant. 87 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 2: Well, because it's a great big chunk of actual money, 88 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 2: which is your money, which is being invested. Let's say 89 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 2: your pension's got thirty thousand pounds in it. No one 90 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 2: would dream of giving thirty thousand pounds as it were 91 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 2: to charities or no normal person. But in fact or 92 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 2: as we're lending it to businesses and enterprises which are 93 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 2: producing renewable energy, affordable housing, affordable healthcare, you know, all 94 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 2: the companies that are doing their best on supply chains 95 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: and equality and working conditions, all these kinds of things. 96 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 2: It says it were the biggest gun in our personal 97 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 2: arsenal in terms of changing things. 98 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: And you've said with comic Relief that you wanted to 99 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: give people a sense that what they did mattered, that 100 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: they could make a difference to issues like poverty. What 101 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: lessons did you take from comic Relief that you've been 102 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 1: able to translate to make my money matter. 103 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 2: Well, I think comic Relief was a way of trying 104 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 2: to communicate in a populist way when we were talking 105 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 2: about issues. Instead of getting a news correspondent or a 106 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 2: financial or social expert, we just got the normal comedians 107 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 2: who are just normal human beings and don't know much 108 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 2: to explain things and express all their passions. So we 109 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 2: tried to do things in an entertaining and populist way 110 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 2: and in a way make my money matter has gone 111 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 2: the same route. We've just made a little film. In fact, 112 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 2: it's about the way the bank system investing fossil fuel expansion. 113 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 2: But it stars two stars and Game of Thrones. 114 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 3: He will tell everyone that he now loves renewables. Oh, 115 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 3: look at me and my pretty little windmills, and then 116 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 3: he turns around and tells me that he loves me. 117 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: Which is it? And they're doing a bit of acting. 118 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 2: They're not talking economics. So I think what it is 119 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 2: is to try and make things accessible, passionate or humorous. 120 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: That particular film, which we'll link to in the show notes, 121 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: has Kid Harrington and Rose Leslie in it. Are you 122 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: thinking of writing a climate change rom com next? 123 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 2: Ah? 124 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 4: Do you know? 125 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: I'm kind of asking people who are still funny to 126 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: do the same. We used to have a show here 127 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 2: called The Good Life, which was about two people who 128 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 2: slip off the grid. I think that would make a 129 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: very good climate change sitcom. I mean, I do think 130 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 2: it's everybody's responsibility to think how they can make climate 131 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 2: change issues as entertaining as exciting. You know, Adam McKay's 132 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 2: doing it and don't look up, So I think it's coming. 133 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 2: It probably won't be me who writes a bit old. 134 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: Things like poverty and hunger, which you've targeted previously, are 135 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: obviously bad. People understand it, and so it's easier to 136 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: make them feel that they should do something about it. Pensions, 137 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: on the other hand, are just this thing that are 138 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: sitting in the background if you're lucky to have one. 139 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: And so, what has been the biggest challenge in running 140 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: this campaign versus anything you've done previously. 141 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 2: It's either a challenge or an opportunity, Because when you're 142 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 2: asking someone for money in a charity appeal, they've got 143 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 2: that money. They could spend it on suites, but you're saying, 144 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 2: why don't you spend it on supporting a project. In 145 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 2: this case, you're saying, here's this thing which is just 146 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 2: sitting there, which you've always had well without giving anything 147 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 2: away you can achieve a big result. And by the way, 148 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 2: it's absolutely key to this campaign. When I started looking 149 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 2: into it, I was worried that it would be another 150 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 2: example of morals versus money, value versus values, that if 151 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 2: anyone was going to say, well, I'd like to green 152 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 2: my pension and like sustainable pension, you know, you'd have 153 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 2: to admit to them it didn't make less. But as 154 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: it were, the why not moment has arrived. A lot 155 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 2: of sustainable pensions are making equal if not more, and 156 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 2: often more so that the excitement about the pensions is 157 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 2: I'm actually telling people a new thing. You're actually instead 158 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 2: of saying, you know, vegan, that's hard, don't take plastic models. 159 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 2: We know that this is a way where you could 160 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 2: say to someone you're worried about the climate, here's a great, 161 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 2: big thing you could do. 162 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: As you said, it's a big, big amount of money 163 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: that could be moved in the right direction. One way 164 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 1: in which pensions are being moved is through the so 165 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: called ESG credentials, and ESG just stands for a set 166 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: of investing strategies that take into consideration environmental, social and 167 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,319 Speaker 1: governance criteria and they argue that if these metrics are 168 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: counted properly and included in decision making to invest or 169 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: to not invest in a particular company, then you could 170 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: use the global financial system and bend it towards solving 171 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: the climate crisis or other social ills rather than exacerbating them. 172 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: Do you think ESG advocates are right? 173 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 2: Well, I think you know, it's quite interesting. I went 174 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 2: to see Mark Carney, who was the Governor of the 175 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 2: Bank of England when we started thinking about this, and 176 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 2: he said, being absolutely sure the extent to which companies 177 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 2: are doing the right thing, are abiding by these ZESG rules, 178 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,199 Speaker 2: he said, it's going to be a long journey that, 179 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 2: but it is definitely in the right direction. And there's 180 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 2: been a great acceleration in terms of companies reporting on 181 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 2: these things, and that as it were, boards of companies 182 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 2: saying these things are important. Our most important shareholder is, 183 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 2: as it were, the world at large, you know, making 184 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 2: sure that people don't dodge it, fudget, don't do token 185 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 2: versions of it. This is all happening now quite fast. 186 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 2: But it's definitely a good way of thinking about your 187 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 2: business rather than only thinking about, as it were, the 188 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 2: profits it's making without any consideration of the harm that 189 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 2: it might be doing. 190 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,719 Speaker 1: The financial industry, in a way is quite conservative when 191 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: it comes to making changes because once the system is working, 192 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: they don't want to break it. And EESG is somehow 193 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:30,079 Speaker 1: being forced upon them. Yes, by society, by people who 194 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: want to think in the long term, and yes, there 195 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: are teething problems, some very real ones. So here at Bloomberg, 196 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: we've looked at ESG for a long time. We have 197 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: an entire set of staff that works on these issues 198 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: all the time. One thing that we've looked at specifically 199 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: is the underlying mechanism on which ESG investment decisions are made. 200 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: They are tied to these ESG ratings, which are marketed 201 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 1: as a way to say, if you are a high 202 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: ESG rated company, you're doing good in the world. If 203 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: you're a low EARG rated company, you're doing bad in 204 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 1: the world. But the reality is quite the opposite. In fact, 205 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: what these ratings typically say is that the company that 206 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: has a high year SG rating is making sure that 207 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: the risks that climate change brings are accounted for in 208 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: their profits and how they manage those profits, rather than 209 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: accounting for the good they do in the world. So 210 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: how do you hold pension managers who make investment decisions 211 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: to account for their decisions, to actually do good rather 212 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 1: than simply be good. 213 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 2: Pr Well, look, it's a very very as you're saying, 214 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:43,439 Speaker 2: it's a very very complicated issue how you evaluate these things. 215 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 2: But the argument behind make my money matter is the 216 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 2: public want you to do it, that it's actually an 217 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 2: effort you have to do, and they expect you to 218 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 2: be accountable. So as well, that's my side of the argument. 219 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 2: I remember to talking to someone who runs a huge 220 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,839 Speaker 2: company and saying, what do you think about the sustainable 221 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 2: development goals and ESG And he says, it's never going 222 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 2: to make it onto the top of our agenda. And 223 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,439 Speaker 2: then three years later, as it were, after the pandemic, 224 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: with climate change accelerating and everything, I met him again 225 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 2: and he said, well, surprise, surprise, it's there. And so 226 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 2: I think that the point about anybody acting individually is 227 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 2: that they can actually affect the mindset of people who 228 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 2: are working on these things to try and make them 229 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 2: do it well, and try and make them accountable and 230 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 2: try and make it real. But the other side of things, 231 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 2: which you know, I would say to everyone who's listening 232 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: to this, is you know where does the power lie. 233 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 2: I didn't go into comedy in order to raise money 234 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 2: or try and have this discussion with you, and yet 235 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 2: I found myself in this position and people who are 236 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 2: running businesses. You know, my dad worked for Unilever for 237 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 2: thirty five years. He didn't think that was why he 238 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 2: was there, but it turns out it could be what 239 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 2: you're there. I sat next the other day to somebody 240 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 2: who said that he was handling seven trillion in investments. 241 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 2: Now he got there because he was brilliant at maths 242 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,239 Speaker 2: and could wear a tie. But he's now more important 243 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 2: than most politicians. And we're all in this boat together. 244 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 2: It's the climate chaos that is coming at us. And 245 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 2: what a great thing to think. I got this job 246 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 2: for other reasons, and now I can lead it. I 247 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 2: can actually offer this advice. I can make sure it works. 248 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 2: I just say to people, don't think, well, there's this 249 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 2: bloke and he's saying what I should do. You know 250 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 2: what he's saying is what could you do? Could you 251 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 2: apply all your intelligence, all your skills, all your financial 252 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 2: acumen to actually fixing things for your children's generation, rather 253 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 2: than saying this is someone else. This has got to 254 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 2: be a politician's job. This has got to be activist's job. 255 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 2: It's not. It's the job of people in business to 256 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 2: see whether or not, as it were, they've got the 257 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 2: kutzba to actually make these changes work, and make these 258 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 2: changes work in a way that will go on delivering 259 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 2: profits and money to all their investors. Because you know, 260 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 2: I've heard a lot of business people say sustainability is 261 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 2: the greatest investment opportunity since the Industrial Revolution. There's a 262 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 2: gold mine out there. Let's get there, rather than hanging 263 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 2: on to the past and saying I'll put my money 264 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 2: into coal mines. 265 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: The only seven trillion dollar asset manager that I know 266 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: is Larry Finks. I think you've just given it work. 267 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 2: No, no, no, I think I might have known what 268 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 2: he looks like. Now. 269 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: The duty of those managing pension pots is to deliver returns. 270 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: That's what fiduciary duty counts for us. And they often 271 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: use that excuse to justify investments in all kinds of 272 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: assets so that the risk is spread so that the 273 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: returns are stable, and kinds of acets to include fossil fuels. 274 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: So how do you counter that argument, which continues to 275 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: be put forward by many pension managers. 276 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 2: Well, I think the answer is to say that it 277 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 2: is incredibly expensive and dangerous to solve the outcomes of crisis. 278 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 2: I remember Paul Palman, who Rannuly was saying to me 279 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 2: that to pay for all the SDGs would be cheaper 280 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 2: than to deal with one crisis in one of them, 281 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 2: you know. And we've seen that with COVID, with the 282 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 2: incredible expense of not having proper pandemic prevention systems in place. 283 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 2: So I think that the answer is that the risks 284 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 2: to investment of climate change are so self evidently huge 285 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 2: and dangerous and leading to so many things that the 286 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 2: sensible execution of fiduciary duty is to be sustainable and 287 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 2: to diversify and to encour marurage businesses which are actually 288 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 2: helping the climate and making profits for the people who 289 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 2: invest in. 290 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: It's all good to call on people to put their 291 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 1: money into green pensions, but how do you make sure 292 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: those pensions are actually green? That's coming up. After the 293 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 1: break in May, a think tank called Carbon Tracker Initiative 294 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: put out a report that said one hundred and sixty 295 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: funds that had themselves either a label of ESG Sustainable 296 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: Climate carbon transition had about four point six billion dollars 297 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 1: of investments in some of the world's largest fossil fuel companies. 298 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: So when do you think that will stop and that 299 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 1: these funds will actually have cleaned up their act. 300 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 2: Well, this is an exciting and really current question, isn't it. 301 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 2: You know, everyone is there's much more awareness of the 302 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 2: immense profits of these companies and also much more awareness 303 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 2: of the difference between you know, when I started thinking 304 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 2: about this, the first questions I was aggressively asked is 305 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 2: are you a divestment campaign? Do you not want anyone 306 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 2: to invest in fossil fields at all? And we are 307 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 2: not a divestment campaign. And it seems just like to 308 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 2: a normal person like me, obvious that those enormous companies 309 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 2: will be part of the transition to renewables and will probably, 310 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 2: as it were, be the people who most executed so 311 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 2: in the car industry, as it were, it needed Tesla 312 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 2: to popularize electric cars for then all the huge companies 313 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,400 Speaker 2: to say, well, we're going to make our money from 314 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 2: this as well. So I think it's a very very 315 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 2: live issue, and the question is how fast and is 316 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 2: it where people like you and me and the people 317 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 2: who care about these things, accelerate sense that investment in 318 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 2: new fossil fuel expansion is a completely morally and practically 319 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 2: bad thing and part of a very old fashioned and 320 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 2: uncourageous way of thinking about things. And our next target 321 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 2: don't like to stay target. The people we want to 322 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 2: convince next are the banks, you know, and again, the 323 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 2: money that you've got in your bank could easily be 324 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,199 Speaker 2: funding fossil fuel expansion, and they've got to say no, 325 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 2: we're not going to do it. And then you know, 326 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 2: the financial reality for those companies will change and alter, 327 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 2: and with any luck, they will do it brilliantly and 328 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 2: be part of the solution instead of a massive part 329 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 2: of the problem. 330 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: One way to think about pensions is that it's a 331 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: radical act. It's an act of believing that the money 332 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: that you save now, decades later, right will come to 333 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: you in a world that would be worth living in, 334 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: that you would be able to take pleasure or sustain 335 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: yourself with that income, by. 336 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 2: The way, and that's what because when I first heard 337 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 2: the word pensions, and you know, Dave and Journey i 338 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 2: work with, said that's where we could focus. I remember thinking, 339 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 2: I want to prefer high street banks because people are 340 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 2: more aware of that. But there is an incredible sort 341 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,719 Speaker 2: of logical beauty to it, isn't it That you're trying 342 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 2: to make sure that you have a decent future, and 343 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 2: if your future happens in a world of climate chaos 344 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 2: and mass migration, everything is not going to be great. 345 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 2: You're actually asking pensions to do two things at the moment. 346 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 2: One give you the money, and two give you the 347 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 2: money in a world that is functioning better and is 348 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 2: less hot. What we're particularly trying to say, as it were, 349 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 2: is to young people, when you go for that first pension, 350 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 2: make sure that it's sustainable one at the moment of 351 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,959 Speaker 2: first interaction, be on the right side of the argument. 352 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 1: But there is a risk that if the ESG strategies, 353 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: these marketing strategies, at least so far, don't actually end 354 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: up doing what you want them to do, which is 355 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: help tackle the climate crisis not exacerbated, that people would 356 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 1: feel cynical about having done any of this and having 357 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 1: even believed in your campaign and thought that the world 358 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: will be better. But look what's happened, Nothing's changed. How 359 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,199 Speaker 1: are you making sure that that is not a place 360 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:28,719 Speaker 1: where we end up in? 361 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 2: Well, we're being you know, we've got a lot of 362 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,120 Speaker 2: pension funds and businesses to sign up to a net 363 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 2: zero promise, and what we aren't doing is just saying great. 364 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 2: What we're saying is we're going to do a report 365 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 2: at the end of this year which says how you 366 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 2: are doing, whether or not you've fulfilled that. So you know, 367 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 2: one of the things is to do our very best 368 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 2: to make sure that people keep their promises. 369 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: Well, you've kept on campaigning for causes for a long 370 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: time now, so clearly at some level you think it's working, yeah, 371 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: and it will continue to work. What gives you that 372 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: kind of optimism? 373 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 2: Wow, I mean that's a big question. Part of its 374 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 2: experiential as it Well, you know, one of the biggest 375 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 2: campaigns we did was the Make Poverty History campaign and 376 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,919 Speaker 2: the outcome of that was, you know, an increase in 377 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 2: overseas development aid and particularly debt cancelation, which was an 378 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 2: absolutely remarkable recalibration of the financial system. So as it were, 379 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:33,400 Speaker 2: if Live eight led to forty billion more addressing these issues, 380 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 2: that's a good bit of evidence for me. I mean, obviously, 381 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 2: in the world of politics, things go backwards and forwards, 382 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 2: and my experience of life is that every time I 383 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 2: do anything, I think as though I'm going to the 384 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 2: top of the staircase. And then I look back five 385 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 2: years later and I realized I went up a step. 386 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,719 Speaker 2: But you only get to the top of the staircase 387 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 2: by going up a step at a time. You know, 388 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 2: and I've seen, you know, on a small level, we 389 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 2: used to relief do a lot of support of disability charities, 390 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 2: and in many cases those charities whereas it were campaigning 391 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 2: for changes in the law, and they achieved those changes 392 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 2: in the law. So in my own lifetime, I've seen 393 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 2: a lot of things that move from charity to government 394 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 2: to huge increases of money, and you have to fight 395 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 2: for those things that you believe in. 396 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: But the progress metrics that you've tried to pursue, which 397 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 1: is to reduce hunger, to reduce poverty, are now all 398 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: back up on the rise. Some of this is because 399 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: of COVID, but some of it is because of climate change. Yeah, hunger, 400 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: World hunger on average was falling until about twenty sixteen 401 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: to twenty nineteen is going back up again. This is 402 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: pre pandemic. Poverty obviously has been exacerbated by the pandemic, 403 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: but it's not getting easily solved, given inflation, given supply chain, 404 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: given extreme weather. And so is that why now you're 405 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: looking at climate as the focus area where poverty and 406 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 1: hunger are still big problems. 407 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 2: I mean, I think the genius of the sustainable development 408 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 2: goals is that they are their absolute base understanding there 409 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 2: is that all these things are linked. I thought I 410 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 2: could get away just focusing on poverty and development. And 411 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 2: I remember in at Live eight with the guy in 412 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 2: shorts from green Peace left stormed out of the room 413 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,120 Speaker 2: because we said it's too complicated for people to get 414 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 2: their heads around. But just take as it were, what's 415 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 2: just the floods in Pakistan. You can see that climate 416 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 2: change not only does damage, but does epic damage to 417 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 2: the poorest people. And as far as the current reverses 418 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 2: are concerned, you know, what do you do when things 419 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 2: that you really are passionate about seem to get worse? Well, 420 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 2: I would have thought the answer is try harder. I 421 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 2: would have thought the answer is recruit different and new partners. 422 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 2: That's why, you know, we're talking to the people who 423 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 2: have power over the money in this world, and the 424 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 2: most interesting thing in the world of the SDGs and 425 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 2: the and is a lot of the stuff that Mia 426 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 2: Motley is saying, the Bridgetown Agenda is actually saying, is 427 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 2: there things that we can do at the World Bank? 428 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: Are the things that you can do at the IMF? 429 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 2: You know, just the simplest of ideas, this idea of 430 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,479 Speaker 2: freezing debt that went a country has some kind of 431 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 2: climate crisis, environmental crisis that as it were, the debts 432 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 2: are frozen till they've been able to spend that debt 433 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,199 Speaker 2: with payment money on trying to revive the country. So 434 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 2: you know, you just have to be more imaginative, bring 435 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 2: more people on your team, change more people's minds, and 436 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 2: then meanwhile hope that science initiative, business brilliants, all of 437 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 2: these things, as they did in COVID, come up with 438 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 2: solutions faster than ever now. 439 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: Pensions are not just fueling the climate crisis here as 440 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 1: a UK issue, but many of the world's biggest asset 441 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: managers and pension parts are based in the US. We 442 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: talked about the total sum being fifty one trillion dollars 443 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 1: in the US specifically, there is a backlash backlash on 444 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: certain types of investments, so ESG investments are being opposed 445 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: by Republicans. Are you worried that that kind of politicization 446 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: off investments is going to spread and will harm the 447 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: sort of work you're trying to promote. 448 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 2: I mean, yes, yes, I think that that is. There 449 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 2: is an issue of sort of drawing everything up on 450 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 2: sort of culture wars arguments. But you've got to believe 451 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 2: that you're right. You know, the people who are objecting 452 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 2: to this movement in the USA, as far as I 453 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 2: know is they are saying, is it putting our funds 454 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 2: and our future at risk? And yet an enormous people, 455 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 2: number of people who are very well informed financially, say no, 456 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,199 Speaker 2: the opposite is true. You know, you're going to end 457 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 2: up with stranded assets, You're going to end up having 458 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 2: to pump money into industries that no longer are powerful 459 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 2: and effective. I'm hoping, as it were, that arguments and 460 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,439 Speaker 2: the truth of where the money goes and how the 461 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 2: money expands is what will eventually win the day. 462 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: Not everyone has a choice about where the pension money goes. 463 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 1: They don't always have the option of changing providers, don't 464 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: always have the ability to influence their provider to invest 465 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: in the right things. So what do people do if 466 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: they care about greening their pensions, but are stuck. 467 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 2: That is a really good question, and the answer is, 468 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 2: I think it's going to become easier. I love the 469 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 2: idea of the heroic chief financial officer, you know, the 470 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 2: climate sup the necessary heroes that we actually need, you know, 471 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 2: may have briefcases. So I think that the answer is that, 472 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 2: in particularly if you're in a company scheme and that's 473 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 2: been the wrong way, is to talk to the company 474 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 2: and say that you want it to change, and that 475 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 2: there are a lot of people who want it to change, 476 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 2: and then they may well start to provide those products. 477 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 2: And one of the things we are finding is that 478 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 2: pension funds are creating more and more products that you 479 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 2: can take advantage of. And when I started talking about 480 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 2: these issues, I went to my extremely intelligent financial advisor, 481 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 2: and he never thought about it. You know, he hadn't. 482 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 2: Actually there's a big educational process. But when it becomes 483 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 2: a priority with people, you may be one of those 484 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 2: people of whom it's impossible to change, but you may 485 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 2: be someone who it's hard to change. And when you 486 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 2: make that change, then it's much easier for those people 487 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 2: who come after you. 488 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: So when you know the expert who's supposed to advise 489 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: the non expert does not know what they should know. 490 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: You know, you're on the right part to try and 491 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: build a campaign that will be effective. 492 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And actually, in fact, now my financial advisor 493 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 2: is an expert and is on some kind of body 494 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 2: of financial advisors who are pushing for these things. 495 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: Now, for the first time, we've seen advertisers being held 496 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: accountable by standards authorities here in the UK and in Europe, 497 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: banning adverts that have things like carbon neutral on them 498 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: if they are not able to meet the criteria to 499 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: actually back those claims. Should similar types of punishments be 500 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: given for green washing in the finance industry, I'm. 501 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 2: Sure they will be. I mean, I have found it 502 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 2: hilarious over the past few years that almost every ad 503 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 2: that you see for a petrol company is basically about 504 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 2: the four wind farms they've got, you know what I 505 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 2: mean when you hear the figures of how much they're 506 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 2: investing in one thing and not in the other. So 507 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 2: this is exactly the point where regulation starts to bite, 508 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 2: you know, and their reaction is either don't do that 509 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 2: false advertising or make the changes that mean that it 510 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 2: is no longer false advertising. Both of those things are good. 511 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: The campaign's philosophy is that you get pension funds and 512 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: the companies they invest in to become greener through dialogue 513 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: and pressure. That is, in investors speak engagement. When do 514 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: you think engagement is not working and you should divest, 515 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: which is just pull your money out of these companies 516 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: and these funds because you've tried talking to them and 517 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: they're not doing the right thing. When is it that 518 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: you cross that treashold? 519 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 2: Well, that's very interesting, and that you know that may 520 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 2: be partly personal taste, do you know what I mean? 521 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 2: Someone may just say I'm not having this at all. 522 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 2: I'm going to shift straight away. So I think that, 523 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 2: you know, I've tended in my life to walk slightly 524 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 2: down the middle of the road. I have quite a 525 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 2: lot of admiration for people who are more you know, 526 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 2: activist than I am. They make a lot of noise 527 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 2: and sometimes they're extremely effective. So I think the answer 528 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 2: is that divestments should be something that those people who 529 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 2: believe in it should do, and those people who sometimes 530 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 2: believe you know, if you had a very pure pension 531 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 2: fund that says we are divesting all these things invest 532 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 2: in US, then that's another way of making money. So 533 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 2: I think it's you know, it's for small choice, and 534 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 2: it's something that some people may feel they should as 535 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,479 Speaker 2: sooners some people may feel they should do later, and 536 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 2: I hope they won't ever have to do. 537 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: Is there a danger that people, if they succeed at 538 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: greening their pensions think, given it so effective, it's happening 539 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: in the background, it's the biggest lever you can pull. 540 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: You've pulled it, so you're going to forget about it 541 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: and then just live life as carbon rich as you can. 542 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 2: I think not. You know, I've described giving money to 543 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,479 Speaker 2: Comic Relief in Red Nose Day as the sort of 544 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 2: gateway drug that once you've got an investment, now you've 545 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 2: given your five pounds to do something, the next time 546 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 2: you're asked your opinion, you'll say, well, I'm part of that. 547 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 2: So you know, if you do the pension and then 548 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 2: as we are doing this year, you raise the issue 549 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 2: of banks, you know, and is your bank doing the 550 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 2: right thing, you'll think about banking. So I think people 551 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 2: get a sense of their consumer power. So I think 552 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 2: it's a journey that once you realize that you've done 553 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 2: a powerful thing. You're much more likely to do more 554 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 2: powerful things than to say I've just done that one 555 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 2: thing and now I can let it be. 556 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: If you were to go back to making films, Oscar Boyd, 557 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: the producer of Zero, has a few ideas for you. 558 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 2: Oh thank god. 559 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: You know, instead of love, actually you could make pensions. Actually, yes, 560 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: instead of notting Hill, you could make no oil spills. 561 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: And the best is, instead of four weddings in a funeral, 562 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: you can make your pension is your funeral. 563 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 2: Wow, Honestly he's tough. I mean, I don't think any 564 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 2: of those movies are going to make any money, but 565 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 2: I'm very proud to be credited with title inspired by 566 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 2: That could be my credit on those films. 567 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: How the energy transition is financed remains an unsolved puzzle. 568 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: The lack of progress often comes up annual climate summits. 569 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: Pensions are a huge source of private capital that, if 570 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: channeled in the right direction, could help shift significant sums 571 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: of money toward vital clean energy projects. However, pension providers 572 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: must be held accountable to make sure that money does 573 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: what's promised. Thanks for listening to Zero, and a special 574 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: thank you to everyone who filled out our survey. Each week, 575 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: Bloombergreen publishes hundreds of stories about the climate crisis and 576 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: its solutions, including a recent investigation into efforts to preserve 577 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: Gabon's pristine forests by Natasha White. 578 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 4: Recently, I traveled to Gabon in Central Africa with my 579 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 4: colleague Anthony squasines investigate the country's efforts to raise money 580 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 4: for protecting its forests. We traveled from the capital, Libreville 581 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 4: to the southernmost province and for as far as the 582 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 4: eye can see for three hours straight. During our flight, 583 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 4: it was an expanse of massive, unbroken forests, the most 584 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 4: trees I've ever seen. These trees are critical in the 585 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 4: global fight against clim change and are also home to 586 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 4: a wide variety of species, but in current markets they're 587 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 4: worth more dead than they are alive. Gabon hopes that 588 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 4: by selling carbon credits it can get the money it 589 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,760 Speaker 4: needs to protect its trees while generating revenue and jobs 590 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 4: for its people. Critics say that in Gabon, forest protection 591 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 4: is happening anyway, and credits generator from those trees wouldn't 592 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 4: have any additional climate benefits. As we found out, these 593 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 4: tensions are creating real challenges for the country and its 594 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 4: business partners as they navigate the highly contentious carbon credit market. 595 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,800 Speaker 1: To read Natasha's article and see the amazing aerial photos 596 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: of Gabon's for us, we've put a link in the 597 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: show notes. If you enjoyed this week's episode, share it 598 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: with a friend or someone who gets too many ads 599 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 1: about investing. Get in touch at zero port at Bloomberg 600 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: dot Net. Zero's producer is Oscar Boyd and senior producer 601 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: is Christine driscoll. Our theme music is by Wonderly Special 602 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: thanks this week to Alistair Marsh and Kira bindram i'm 603 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,720 Speaker 1: Akshatrati back next week.