WEBVTT - How Do Con Artists Keep Fooling Us? 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:00.800 Guess what, mango? 0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:01.599 What's that? Will? 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:04.200 Did you know that the con and con artist is 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:08.039 actually short for confidence, so it's confidence artist or confidence 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:09.280 man as they were first known. 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:12.280 Yeah, I actually did, but I never understood why. 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:15.280 Well, the confidence part actually comes from one con man 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:18.200 in particular. His name was William Thompson, and he was 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:21.079 the very first person to be called a confidence man. 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:23.440 So he was this swindler in old New York, and 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:25.840 one day in eighteen forty eight he hit upon a 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:28.640 new type of scam that quickly became his go to. 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:31.639 He would dress in his best clothes and politely approach 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:34.239 other well to do looking gentlemen on the street. Then 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:36.920 he would strike up conversations with the strangers and feed 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:39.560 them some sort of story about desperately needing. 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:40.560 A pocket watch for the day. 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:41.280 Pocket. 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:44.080 Finally, he would ask, have you confidence in me to 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:46.320 trust me with your watch until tomorrow? 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:49.000 What a line, and it's all it's hard to believe 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:49.800 anyone fell for that. 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:51.960 Yeah, I might try it out, but you know, people 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:54.720 did fall for it. And Thompson walked off with hundreds 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:58.440 of fancy watches, so many that newspapers began reporting about 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:00.240 this confidence man who played. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:02.520 The city's streets. It's pretty crazy. 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:04.759 So with that in mind, we're going to dive into 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:07.560 the fascinating history of con artists and try to understand 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.120 a little bit about why everyone has a soft spot 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:36.319 for them. So let's get started. Hey, their podcast listeners, 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:38.840 welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm Will Pearson and as 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:41.080 always I'm joined by my good friend Manguesh how Ticketter 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:44.000 And before we dive in today's big topic, we've got 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:46.720 something fun to announce. After hearing from so many of 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:50.320 you in early contests and from each episode, we've realized something. 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:53.280 You listeners are some smart people, and you have some 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:55.960 really interesting facts to share, and we need to make 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:58.320 it even easier for you to share those facts with us. 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:00.280 That's right. We know how difficult it can be when 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:02.320 you've got something super interesting to say and you don't 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:04.280 have anyone to share it with, and it makes us 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:06.800 sad to even think about. So we're here for you, 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:10.000 and we're excited to announce the creation of a fact hotline. 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:13.160 You heard him right, folks, a fact hotline. All you 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:16.880 have to do is one eight four four pt Genius. 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:20.640 That's one eight four four seven eight four three six 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:23.040 four eight, and of course there's a stray seven at 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:25.280 the end. Two we wanted to say genius instead of geniu. 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:27.680 But so you can call us anytime if you have 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:30.720 super interesting fact to share about any topic. Today we'll 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:33.000 be talking about con artists. So you could tell us 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:35.560 what we may have forgotten to mention and they can call. 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:37.280 It's what's twenty four hours a day, right. 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:39.959 Twenty four hours. It's like four am on a Tuesday morning. 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:42.120 You can call then, yeah, maybe even six am on 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:43.600 a Tuesday morning, could you call then? 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:44.760 Yes, you can. 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:46.960 All right, So we want to hear from you. 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:48.840 Let us know what we've forgotten in the episode you're 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:51.600 about to hear any other episode. And of course when 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:54.440 we hear facts that we really really love, we're pretty 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:56.400 generous with our t shirts. Right, this is what we're 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:58.560 giving away for those that submit facts that we use. 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:01.240 Yeah, we'll pony express you to teach. So send us some. 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:03.320 Facts, all right, can't wait to hear those again one 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:06.520 more time. That is one eight four four pt genius. 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:09.079 All right, So let's get started. On today's show. 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:12.519 We're talking about con artists, those enterprising flim flammers of 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:15.840 the world. We've made lifelong careers out of scamming the public, 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:18.200 and we're going to try to pinpoint the golden age 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:20.280 of conmen and see if we can figure out how 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:23.320 to avoid being duped ourselves. We'll also dig into the 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:25.760 psychology of con artists to see how they manage to 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:28.640 win a target's trust and even sometimes their hearts. 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:31.239 Yeah, and that might sound ridiculous at first, like this 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:34.239 idea that con men win people's hearts. But the more 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:36.520 we looked into the topic, the more convinced I became 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:38.440 that a lot of us have a big soft spot 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:41.280 for con artists. I mean, first of all, which other 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:44.360 class of criminals do we regularly describe as artists? Right, Like, 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:46.760 that's a pretty big compliment for someone who's trying to 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:47.360 rip you off. 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:49.440 Yeah, So we'll check out what's going on there, and 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:51.400 of course we'll also take some time for a couple 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:53.720 absurd quizzes along the way. Want to give the rundown 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:54.640 of who's joining us today? 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:54.920 Mango? 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:57.760 Yeah, sure. So today we're talking to Maria Konnakova, a 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:00.840 journalist and psychologist. She's also the best selling author of 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:03.800 The Confidence Game. Maria spent years exploring the ins and 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:06.080 outs of famous cons for a book, including why they 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:09.000 work and why we keep falling for them, And so 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:10.760 we're gonna have her on the program. We're also gonna 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:14.040 be talking to Patrick Hoffman, this incredible crime novelist who's 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:15.960 also a licensed private investigator. 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:18.440 You know, before doing our research for this episode, I 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.840 actually didn't know that con artist was short for confidence artists, 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:24.600 and before the public upgraded them to artists status, they 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:26.640 were simply known as confidence men. 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:29.039 What I really like about the story of William Thompson 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:31.440 is how well it sets up everything you really need 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:33.880 to know about con artists and why we admire them. 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:36.800 So think about how they can persuade all sorts of 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:39.440 different people into giving up everything from like a watch 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:42.240 to their life savings. And that's all just using their 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:46.000 words in charm like they're almost improv actors with like 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:47.160 looser morals. 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:50.120 Yeah, and while the end result is deplorable, of course, 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:52.840 the process itself, I mean, it takes real talent to. 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:56.400 Pull this off, definitely. So con men are incredibly perceptive, 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:58.680 which helps them read people quickly in order to come 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:00.919 up with just the right story to like hook a 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:04.360 particular person, which is why in addition to thinking them 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:08.640 as like skilled artists, many researchers also consider them really 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:11.480 good psychologists. And so you can think about it, they 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:14.359 never actually steal something from you directly. Most of the 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:17.280 time they're manipulating you into like handing over what you. 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:20.080 Have, right, And that's exactly what we see with Thompson. 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:22.800 I mean, his question have you confidence in me? Is 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:26.480 really targeting the stranger sense of pride or their civility. 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:29.560 I mean he's basically asking, are you truly a proper 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:31.919 gentleman as your appearance suggests? Are you the type of 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:34.240 person who assumes the worst of their fellow man? 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:37.760 And it works. I mean, most people hate disappointing others, 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:41.760 especially if doing so makes them seem greedy or distrustful, 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:44.400 So we all feel that urge to save face even 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:45.400 with a total stranger. 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:47.120 Well, and the other thing that we really love is 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:49.800 a bargain, and con artists are very well aware of this. 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:51.919 I mean, one of my favorite examples of this is 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:54.640 George C. Parker. This was the guy you may remember 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:58.120 that sold the Brooklyn Bridge twice a week for decades. 0:05:58.400 --> 0:05:59.479 I love him so much. 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:02.440 Yes, So here's what Parker did so shortly after the 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:05.479 bridge was completed in eighteen eighty three, he decided on 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:08.479 a whim to try and sell the bridge to unsuspecting 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:11.120 tourists and immigrants. These were folks who were new to 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:13.680 the city or maybe even the country, but they'd heard 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:17.360 about what amazing opportunities were available here. So when Parker 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:20.040 approached them with this deal of a lifetime, the victims 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:22.359 assumed they just stumbled into one of these lucky breaks 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:23.400 they'd heard so much about. 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:26.479 But still, I mean, like buying the Brooklyn Bridge like 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:28.640 that seems like such a tough thing to sell. 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:31.080 Yeah, but he managed to do it again and again. 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:33.400 This is how good he was at this, and sometimes 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:37.160 for as much as fifty thousand dollars. So his routine 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:39.719 was to introduce himself to a mark as he called them, 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.159 and as the owner of the bridge, and then offer 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:44.599 them a job running the toll booth he was about 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:46.800 to build on it. From there, he would play up 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:48.560 the fact that he was really more of a builder 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:50.839 than a businessman, and that he'd be much happier to 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:53.599 leave the toll taking to somebody else, and then he'd 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:56.880 just move on to his next construction project. If only 0:06:56.920 --> 0:06:59.480 he could find an investor to take the Brooklyn Bridge 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:00.120 off his hand. 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:02.359 This which is so devious, I know. 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:04.880 And some victims didn't even realize they'd been had until 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:09.200 months later. Some continued paying the bridge in monthly installments. 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:11.600 I love that when I read about this, only to 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:13.920 learn the truth from police after they were trying to 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:17.040 construct toll booths on the bridge that they supposedly owned. 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:19.680 So obviously this went on for a long time. But like, 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:21.520 how many years was he selling the bridge for? 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:22.640 You're not gonna believe this. 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:26.000 So Peter ran these landmarks selling scams like this from 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:28.200 I think it was the eighteen eighties all the way 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:30.120 until nineteen twenty eight. 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:32.280 We're talking almost fifty. 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:34.480 Years when he was finally arrested, and then he was 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:37.440 sentenced to life and sing sing prison. And although his 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:40.640 specialty was selling the Brooklyn Bridge, he dabbled a little 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:43.440 and selling other New York City landmarks like the Metropolitan 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:45.520 Museum of Art. I think he tried to sell the 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:48.520 Statue of Liberty a few times, even Grant's Tune, which 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:51.120 he sold while posing as the General's grandson. 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:53.560 This guy's crazy, but it was so good at this. 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:56.000 I love it, but it really makes me wonder, like, 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:58.560 who is falling for these schemes. It sounds like these 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.280 marks were pretty naive. But also like bumping into the 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:03.400 owner of like a world famous museum and then buying 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:05.680 it off him for like a pittance, that that just 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:06.760 sounds so dumb. 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:09.400 I do think we have to be a little bit 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:12.480 careful here, But most experts agree that what makes the 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:15.480 perfect mark really doesn't have anything to do with how 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:19.840 intelligent or wealthy or gullible you are. So instead, psychologists 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:21.760 say that it's where you are at a certain point 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.880 in your life that makes you more emotionally susceptible to 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:27.720 con So you know someone who's going through a transition 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:30.400 in life, whether it might be something good, Let's say 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:32.360 you've gotten a job promotion, or you've just had a 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:35.640 child born, or on the other end, something negative that's happened, 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:38.280 if you've experienced the death or maybe a recent divorce. 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:40.000 I mean, these are the people. 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:42.440 That are more likely to latch onto an opportunity that 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:44.480 would otherwise seem too good to be. 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:47.080 True, which is interesting. I mean, in Parker's case, it 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:49.760 seems like he was targeting immigrants because he sensed their 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:53.240 emotional vulnerability and starting over in a new country. But 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:56.600 I always assume con artists pick their marks based on 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:59.480 like how people were dressed or how they carried themselves, 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:02.840 the way Thompson always went after these genteel looking strangers 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:03.800 for his watch scam. 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:05.960 Yeah yeah, I mean, I think appearance and body language 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:08.480 definitely play a part, but it doesn't seem like the 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:12.040 deciding factor. So, for instance, Parker adjusted the amounts he 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:14.760 would accept for the Brooklyn Bridge based on how wealthy 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:17.640 a particular mark looked. The most he got from a 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:20.280 single mark was, of course, that fifty thousand dollars that 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:23.080 we mentioned earlier, but he also sold the bridge. 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:23.560 For lower amounts. 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:26.160 You know, some people got a real discount, like five 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:28.319 hundred dollars or even fifty bucks. 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:31.080 They got to buy the entire Brooklyn Bridge for fifty bucks. 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:33.040 I mean, I might take that chance. 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:35.800 So he would choose his victims based on, you know, 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:38.240 what he spotted, if he saw these telltale signs that 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:42.240 their lives were in upheaval. But other factors still informed 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:44.280 the specifics of how everything played out. 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:46.280 So I guess that's the beauty of selling something that 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:48.720 you don't actually own, right, Because any price can be 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:50.800 the right one, right, But what strikes me is how 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:53.760 much effort and adaptability go into these cons Like, is 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.920 it wrong that I find all of this kind of impressive? 0:09:57.160 --> 0:09:59.720 Well, you know, right or wrong, you wouldn't be alone 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.280 in that kind of feeling. So when Parker went to prison, 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:05.080 he was treated like a celebrity, not only by his 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:07.760 fellow inmates, but even by the guards. 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:07.880 They were there. 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:11.199 I mean, everyone loved hearing about his exploits and how 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:13.920 he was able to sell such a crazy premise over 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:14.880 and over. 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:17.320 Again, which actually backs up a study I came across 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:20.880 in Scientific American that suggests we view unethical behavior less 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:24.800 harshly if it also happens to be creative. So, for example, 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.280 you tend to disapprove more strongly of someone who robs 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:30.040 a man at gunpoint than someone who swindles money from 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:33.600 them through this sort of like creative method. And it's 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:35.880 almost like you feel bad for being duped, but you 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:37.920 also have to imploud the ingenuity. 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:39.240 Yeah, yeah, I mean it makes sense. 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:41.520 Even though the guards that Sing Sing believed Parker had 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:45.600 behaved unethically, they really couldn't help but admire his creativity 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:48.280 and boldness that he displayed through all of these crimes 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:49.440 he was committing exactly. 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:51.959 And while that kind of thinking is apparently pretty common, 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:53.920 it's also somewhat worrisome for society. 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:54.959 Well why would you say that? 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:58.320 Well, so Francisco Gino, one of the researchers who worked 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:01.640 on the study, put it this way. Quote. It seems 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:04.679 that people view creativity as a positive, valuable trait that 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:08.240 provides creative cheaters with a halo that makes their transgressions 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:12.480 more palatable and more socially contagious. So because the creativity 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:14.520 of a con is valued and appreciated by the public, 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:17.280 we're actually more likely to imitate that kind of behavior. 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:19.200 Yeah, I mean, I can see the danger there, and 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.000 it's certainly worth reminding ourselves that we are talking about 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:24.720 ruthless people. I mean, these are ones who are knowingly 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:28.000 wreaking havoc on others' lives for their own financial gain. 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:30.559 But while we can do our best to avoid outright 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:33.840 celebrating con artists, I really doubt we'll ever be able 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:36.640 to avoid admiring them, at least a little totally. 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:39.680 And that's something our author Maria Kuonikova touches on in 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:43.000 her work. In an interview with The Guardian. She said, quote, 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:45.480 of course you have a grudging admiration for them, because 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:48.120 they're really really good at what they do. The name 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:51.160 con artist really does capture it. They're artists, and I 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:52.800 have an admiration for all artists. 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:53.080 Yeah. 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:55.439 Yeah, Well, now seems like the perfect time to check 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:57.400 in with Maria and get the lowdown on the works 0:11:57.400 --> 0:11:59.520 of some of her all time favorite con artists. 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:01.160 What do you say? I'm all for it. 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.720 So our guest today has been studying con artists for years. 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:13.320 She's the author of Mastermind and The Confidence Game and 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:16.400 the host and creator of a terrific podcast from Panopley 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:17.360 called The Grift. 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:18.960 And I am addicted to this show. 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:21.400 I've listened to I think six of the episodes now 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.600 and plan to listen to the others. But Maria Kanakoba, 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:26.000 welcome to Part Time Genius. 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:27.280 Thanks so much for having me. 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:29.679 All Right, Well, you know, as I was saying, I've 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:32.360 been listening to the show and it's really really interesting 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:37.040 and it's fun to kind of follow these common characteristics. 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:39.520 Not that every con artist is the same. 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:44.440 So I think one thing that people make the mistake 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:49.000 of thinking is that you know, con artists are basically 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:54.520 people who take advantage of other people, of other human beings. 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:58.160 That's the mindset of a non con artist. Con Artists 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:00.960 don't think if they're victims as humans really So there's 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:04.800 even a term in con artist parlance. It's called the mark. 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:09.959 So who is your target? It's a mark because as 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:12.960 soon as you feel any sort of real human attachments, 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:17.079 then you start feeling guilty, You start having payings about 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:19.640 what you're doing to this person, You start thinking about 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:23.679 emotional consequences, and then you're really crappy con artists because 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:26.600 you're not able to take advantage of this person, and 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:28.280 you're not going to be able to keep doing this 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:30.560 because your conscience is going to catch up with you. 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.120 In fact, there was one hilarious well I thought it 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:35.199 was a pretty funny story that I came across when 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:38.040 I was doing research. There's a very common scam, the 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:41.120 IRS scam, where you get a phone call someone says, hi, 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:45.320 we're from the IRS. We found that you didn't pay 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:48.360 enough taxes. You owe you know, two thousand dollars or 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:50.800 whatever it is, plus this speech. If you don't pay 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.360 it right now, you're going to have to go to 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:55.160 jail and all these bad things are going to happen, 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:57.839 and people get really scared because people are scared of 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:01.640 the irs, they're scared of taxes, and oftentimes de'll panic 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:05.000 and they'll end up giving money to the con artist. 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:06.280 This particular time. 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:09.560 Guy calls and starts with the usual spiel, you know, 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:12.720 you owe a lot of money on back Texas. The 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:15.920 woman and hiss calling starts bawling. I mean, this woman 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.920 gets hysterical. I don't know what I'm going to do. 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:20.479 I'm pregnant. 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:22.920 You know, we own a store that we can't really 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:24.760 keep our payments up on. You know, I'm about to 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:26.240 have this baby. What am I going to And she 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:29.720 just keeps going, I'm going and the corn artist just says, lady, lady, stop, 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:40.280 it's a cone nicely done. So that particular guy probably 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:42.200 not a very successful con artist. 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:44.960 You know, when I think about psychics or fortune tellers, 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:47.280 you know, I really had more of this image that 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:49.880 people go and they throw down twenty dollars or thirty 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:52.640 dollars to have their fortune told and then that's kind 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:54.560 of the end of it. And yes, maybe they're ripped off, 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:59.360 But I didn't really realize how deep some of these 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:02.120 scams go oh, and you tell the story of this 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:04.920 one poor college student who ended up getting scammed for 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:07.120 you know, I think it was like one hundred and 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:10.880 eighty thousand dollars or something, just extraordinary like that. But 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:13.680 in that episode you talk about the ability of a 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:17.040 con artist to get what you describe as a cold 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:18.600 read on someone. 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:20.120 Can you talk a little bit about that. 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:25.800 Absolutely, it's a skill that I think psychics specifically really 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:30.800 have down to just this science almost and con artists 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.520 have had it too. More broadly, and actually a lot 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.920 of professions rely on it, you know, sales marketing. The 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:38.560 better you are and is, the better you are able 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:43.760 to sell. And the essence of it is being able 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:48.120 to not only profile someone by looking at them, but 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:52.920 get a lot of information from how they're dressed, what 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:56.840 they sound like, what words they use, what they're saying, 0:15:57.200 --> 0:15:59.760 what their face is like, what their emotional bearing is. 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:04.560 So every single moment, every single day, we are just 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:07.000 throwing off ques to people. 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:08.440 So you walk into a. 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:12.920 Psychic realm right away, that's one huge clue. You are 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:16.360 at a psychic's place. What kind of person goes to 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:17.200 see a psychic? 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:18.520 Why are you there? 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:20.600 Maybe you're there on a lark and you think this 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.480 is very funny, and yet you did it anyway, so 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:27.440 that already says something. Maybe you look really upset. A 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:29.320 lot of people go to psychics and they're upset. So 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:31.520 right away we know that something happened in your life. 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:33.520 What kind of a watch are you wearing? What kind 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:36.160 of clothes are you wearing? What kind of bag are 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:39.720 you carrying with you? If you're a female, are what 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:42.920 question did you ask the psychic. The psychic is also 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:46.400 able to ask you some preliminary questions right away and 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:49.120 phrase them in a way that makes you not realize 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:53.680 you're giving off information. For instance, if I sit down 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:59.280 at a psychic, if like you can say, oh, you're 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:02.560 not from around and here are you, which seems like 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.439 she is leading into my soul and knows that I 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:09.159 somehow find so far away. But think about how ambiguous 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:10.960 that question is, and I'm going to give her a 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:13.920 lot of information right away. And by the way, one 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.040 thing that really helps psychics out is that we are 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:18.280 a lot less. 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:19.440 Unique than we like to think. 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.040 Every single person likes to think that there's no one 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:24.800 going through what I'm going through. No one knows what 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:25.560 it's like to be me. 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:26.600 And that's true as. 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:30.639 Far as it goes. However, we all all fit into 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:34.320 these overarching themes. You know, a lot of people who 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:39.480 are going through similar emotional problems are actually more alike 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:42.400 in a lot of surface ways, surface ways that make 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:46.320 people then open up on those idiosyncrasies. And so as 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:49.200 long as you can get those surface patterns down, people 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:51.800 think that you understand them, people think that you know 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.359 what it is like to be them, and people become 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:56.800 much more willing to give you a lot of information 0:17:56.920 --> 0:17:58.840 that they wouldn't normally give out to a stranger. 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:00.480 Interesting. 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:02.800 So one of the things you mentioned on your show 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:06.560 is that carnivals are our first interaction with con artists, 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:08.880 and I kind of love that idea. I'd never really 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:11.119 thought about it that way, and could you talk a 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:11.919 little more about that. 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:15.159 Yeah, it was actually really I was really upset to 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:18.760