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Speaker 1: Guess what, mango?

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Speaker 2: What's that? Will?

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Speaker 3: Did you know that the con and con artist is

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Speaker 3: actually short for confidence, so it's confidence artist or confidence

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Speaker 3: man as they were first known.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I actually did, but I never understood why.

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Speaker 3: Well, the confidence part actually comes from one con man

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Speaker 3: in particular. His name was William Thompson, and he was

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Speaker 3: the very first person to be called a confidence man.

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Speaker 3: So he was this swindler in old New York, and

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Speaker 3: one day in eighteen forty eight he hit upon a

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Speaker 3: new type of scam that quickly became his go to.

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Speaker 3: He would dress in his best clothes and politely approach

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Speaker 3: other well to do looking gentlemen on the street. Then

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Speaker 3: he would strike up conversations with the strangers and feed

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Speaker 3: them some sort of story about desperately needing.

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Speaker 1: A pocket watch for the day.

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Speaker 2: Pocket.

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Speaker 3: Finally, he would ask, have you confidence in me to

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Speaker 3: trust me with your watch until tomorrow?

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Speaker 2: What a line, and it's all it's hard to believe

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Speaker 2: anyone fell for that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I might try it out, but you know, people

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Speaker 3: did fall for it. And Thompson walked off with hundreds

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Speaker 3: of fancy watches, so many that newspapers began reporting about

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Speaker 3: this confidence man who played.

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Speaker 1: The city's streets. It's pretty crazy.

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Speaker 3: So with that in mind, we're going to dive into

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Speaker 3: the fascinating history of con artists and try to understand

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Speaker 3: a little bit about why everyone has a soft spot

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Speaker 3: for them. So let's get started. Hey, their podcast listeners,

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Speaker 3: welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm Will Pearson and as

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Speaker 3: always I'm joined by my good friend Manguesh how Ticketter

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Speaker 3: And before we dive in today's big topic, we've got

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Speaker 3: something fun to announce. After hearing from so many of

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Speaker 3: you in early contests and from each episode, we've realized something.

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Speaker 3: You listeners are some smart people, and you have some

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Speaker 3: really interesting facts to share, and we need to make

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Speaker 3: it even easier for you to share those facts with us.

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Speaker 2: That's right. We know how difficult it can be when

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Speaker 2: you've got something super interesting to say and you don't

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Speaker 2: have anyone to share it with, and it makes us

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Speaker 2: sad to even think about. So we're here for you,

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Speaker 2: and we're excited to announce the creation of a fact hotline.

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Speaker 3: You heard him right, folks, a fact hotline. All you

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Speaker 3: have to do is one eight four four pt Genius.

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Speaker 3: That's one eight four four seven eight four three six

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Speaker 3: four eight, and of course there's a stray seven at

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Speaker 3: the end. Two we wanted to say genius instead of geniu.

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Speaker 3: But so you can call us anytime if you have

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Speaker 3: super interesting fact to share about any topic. Today we'll

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Speaker 3: be talking about con artists. So you could tell us

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Speaker 3: what we may have forgotten to mention and they can call.

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Speaker 3: It's what's twenty four hours a day, right.

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Speaker 2: Twenty four hours. It's like four am on a Tuesday morning.

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Speaker 3: You can call then, yeah, maybe even six am on

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Speaker 3: a Tuesday morning, could you call then?

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Speaker 2: Yes, you can.

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Speaker 1: All right, So we want to hear from you.

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Speaker 3: Let us know what we've forgotten in the episode you're

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Speaker 3: about to hear any other episode. And of course when

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Speaker 3: we hear facts that we really really love, we're pretty

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Speaker 3: generous with our t shirts. Right, this is what we're

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Speaker 3: giving away for those that submit facts that we use.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll pony express you to teach. So send us some.

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Speaker 3: Facts, all right, can't wait to hear those again one

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Speaker 3: more time. That is one eight four four pt genius.

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Speaker 1: All right, So let's get started. On today's show.

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Speaker 3: We're talking about con artists, those enterprising flim flammers of

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Speaker 3: the world. We've made lifelong careers out of scamming the public,

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Speaker 3: and we're going to try to pinpoint the golden age

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Speaker 3: of conmen and see if we can figure out how

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Speaker 3: to avoid being duped ourselves. We'll also dig into the

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Speaker 3: psychology of con artists to see how they manage to

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Speaker 3: win a target's trust and even sometimes their hearts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that might sound ridiculous at first, like this

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Speaker 2: idea that con men win people's hearts. But the more

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Speaker 2: we looked into the topic, the more convinced I became

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Speaker 2: that a lot of us have a big soft spot

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Speaker 2: for con artists. I mean, first of all, which other

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Speaker 2: class of criminals do we regularly describe as artists? Right, Like,

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Speaker 2: that's a pretty big compliment for someone who's trying to

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Speaker 2: rip you off.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So we'll check out what's going on there, and

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Speaker 3: of course we'll also take some time for a couple

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Speaker 3: absurd quizzes along the way. Want to give the rundown

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Speaker 3: of who's joining us today?

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Speaker 1: Mango?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sure. So today we're talking to Maria Konnakova, a

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Speaker 2: journalist and psychologist. She's also the best selling author of

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Speaker 2: The Confidence Game. Maria spent years exploring the ins and

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Speaker 2: outs of famous cons for a book, including why they

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Speaker 2: work and why we keep falling for them, And so

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Speaker 2: we're gonna have her on the program. We're also gonna

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Speaker 2: be talking to Patrick Hoffman, this incredible crime novelist who's

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Speaker 2: also a licensed private investigator.

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Speaker 3: You know, before doing our research for this episode, I

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Speaker 3: actually didn't know that con artist was short for confidence artists,

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Speaker 3: and before the public upgraded them to artists status, they

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Speaker 3: were simply known as confidence men.

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Speaker 2: What I really like about the story of William Thompson

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Speaker 2: is how well it sets up everything you really need

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Speaker 2: to know about con artists and why we admire them.

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Speaker 2: So think about how they can persuade all sorts of

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Speaker 2: different people into giving up everything from like a watch

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Speaker 2: to their life savings. And that's all just using their

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Speaker 2: words in charm like they're almost improv actors with like

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Speaker 2: looser morals.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and while the end result is deplorable, of course,

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Speaker 3: the process itself, I mean, it takes real talent to.

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Speaker 2: Pull this off, definitely. So con men are incredibly perceptive,

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Speaker 2: which helps them read people quickly in order to come

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Speaker 2: up with just the right story to like hook a

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Speaker 2: particular person, which is why in addition to thinking them

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Speaker 2: as like skilled artists, many researchers also consider them really

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Speaker 2: good psychologists. And so you can think about it, they

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Speaker 2: never actually steal something from you directly. Most of the

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Speaker 2: time they're manipulating you into like handing over what you.

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Speaker 3: Have, right, And that's exactly what we see with Thompson.

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Speaker 3: I mean, his question have you confidence in me? Is

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Speaker 3: really targeting the stranger sense of pride or their civility.

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Speaker 3: I mean he's basically asking, are you truly a proper

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Speaker 3: gentleman as your appearance suggests? Are you the type of

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Speaker 3: person who assumes the worst of their fellow man?

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Speaker 2: And it works. I mean, most people hate disappointing others,

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Speaker 2: especially if doing so makes them seem greedy or distrustful,

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Speaker 2: So we all feel that urge to save face even

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Speaker 2: with a total stranger.

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Speaker 3: Well, and the other thing that we really love is

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Speaker 3: a bargain, and con artists are very well aware of this.

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Speaker 3: I mean, one of my favorite examples of this is

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Speaker 3: George C. Parker. This was the guy you may remember

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Speaker 3: that sold the Brooklyn Bridge twice a week for decades.

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Speaker 2: I love him so much.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So here's what Parker did so shortly after the

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Speaker 3: bridge was completed in eighteen eighty three, he decided on

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Speaker 3: a whim to try and sell the bridge to unsuspecting

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Speaker 3: tourists and immigrants. These were folks who were new to

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Speaker 3: the city or maybe even the country, but they'd heard

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Speaker 3: about what amazing opportunities were available here. So when Parker

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Speaker 3: approached them with this deal of a lifetime, the victims

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Speaker 3: assumed they just stumbled into one of these lucky breaks

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Speaker 3: they'd heard so much about.

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Speaker 2: But still, I mean, like buying the Brooklyn Bridge like

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Speaker 2: that seems like such a tough thing to sell.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but he managed to do it again and again.

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Speaker 3: This is how good he was at this, and sometimes

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Speaker 3: for as much as fifty thousand dollars. So his routine

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Speaker 3: was to introduce himself to a mark as he called them,

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Speaker 3: and as the owner of the bridge, and then offer

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Speaker 3: them a job running the toll booth he was about

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Speaker 3: to build on it. From there, he would play up

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Speaker 3: the fact that he was really more of a builder

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Speaker 3: than a businessman, and that he'd be much happier to

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Speaker 3: leave the toll taking to somebody else, and then he'd

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Speaker 3: just move on to his next construction project. If only

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Speaker 3: he could find an investor to take the Brooklyn Bridge

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Speaker 3: off his hand.

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Speaker 2: This which is so devious, I know.

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Speaker 3: And some victims didn't even realize they'd been had until

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Speaker 3: months later. Some continued paying the bridge in monthly installments.

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Speaker 3: I love that when I read about this, only to

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Speaker 3: learn the truth from police after they were trying to

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Speaker 3: construct toll booths on the bridge that they supposedly owned.

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Speaker 2: So obviously this went on for a long time. But like,

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Speaker 2: how many years was he selling the bridge for?

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Speaker 1: You're not gonna believe this.

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Speaker 3: So Peter ran these landmarks selling scams like this from

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Speaker 3: I think it was the eighteen eighties all the way

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Speaker 3: until nineteen twenty eight.

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Speaker 1: We're talking almost fifty.

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Speaker 3: Years when he was finally arrested, and then he was

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Speaker 3: sentenced to life and sing sing prison. And although his

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Speaker 3: specialty was selling the Brooklyn Bridge, he dabbled a little

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Speaker 3: and selling other New York City landmarks like the Metropolitan

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Speaker 3: Museum of Art. I think he tried to sell the

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Speaker 3: Statue of Liberty a few times, even Grant's Tune, which

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Speaker 3: he sold while posing as the General's grandson.

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Speaker 1: This guy's crazy, but it was so good at this.

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Speaker 2: I love it, but it really makes me wonder, like,

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Speaker 2: who is falling for these schemes. It sounds like these

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Speaker 2: marks were pretty naive. But also like bumping into the

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Speaker 2: owner of like a world famous museum and then buying

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Speaker 2: it off him for like a pittance, that that just

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Speaker 2: sounds so dumb.

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Speaker 3: I do think we have to be a little bit

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Speaker 3: careful here, But most experts agree that what makes the

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Speaker 3: perfect mark really doesn't have anything to do with how

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Speaker 3: intelligent or wealthy or gullible you are. So instead, psychologists

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Speaker 3: say that it's where you are at a certain point

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Speaker 3: in your life that makes you more emotionally susceptible to

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Speaker 3: con So you know someone who's going through a transition

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Speaker 3: in life, whether it might be something good, Let's say

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Speaker 3: you've gotten a job promotion, or you've just had a

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Speaker 3: child born, or on the other end, something negative that's happened,

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Speaker 3: if you've experienced the death or maybe a recent divorce.

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Speaker 1: I mean, these are the people.

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Speaker 3: That are more likely to latch onto an opportunity that

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Speaker 3: would otherwise seem too good to be.

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Speaker 2: True, which is interesting. I mean, in Parker's case, it

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Speaker 2: seems like he was targeting immigrants because he sensed their

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Speaker 2: emotional vulnerability and starting over in a new country. But

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Speaker 2: I always assume con artists pick their marks based on

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Speaker 2: like how people were dressed or how they carried themselves,

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Speaker 2: the way Thompson always went after these genteel looking strangers

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Speaker 2: for his watch scam.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I mean, I think appearance and body language

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Speaker 3: definitely play a part, but it doesn't seem like the

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Speaker 3: deciding factor. So, for instance, Parker adjusted the amounts he

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Speaker 3: would accept for the Brooklyn Bridge based on how wealthy

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Speaker 3: a particular mark looked. The most he got from a

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Speaker 3: single mark was, of course, that fifty thousand dollars that

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Speaker 3: we mentioned earlier, but he also sold the bridge.

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Speaker 1: For lower amounts.

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Speaker 3: You know, some people got a real discount, like five

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Speaker 3: hundred dollars or even fifty bucks.

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Speaker 1: They got to buy the entire Brooklyn Bridge for fifty bucks.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I might take that chance.

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Speaker 3: So he would choose his victims based on, you know,

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Speaker 3: what he spotted, if he saw these telltale signs that

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Speaker 3: their lives were in upheaval. But other factors still informed

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Speaker 3: the specifics of how everything played out.

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Speaker 2: So I guess that's the beauty of selling something that

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Speaker 2: you don't actually own, right, Because any price can be

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Speaker 2: the right one, right, But what strikes me is how

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Speaker 2: much effort and adaptability go into these cons Like, is

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Speaker 2: it wrong that I find all of this kind of impressive?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, right or wrong, you wouldn't be alone

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Speaker 3: in that kind of feeling. So when Parker went to prison,

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Speaker 3: he was treated like a celebrity, not only by his

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Speaker 3: fellow inmates, but even by the guards.

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Speaker 1: They were there.

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Speaker 3: I mean, everyone loved hearing about his exploits and how

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Speaker 3: he was able to sell such a crazy premise over

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Speaker 3: and over.

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Speaker 2: Again, which actually backs up a study I came across

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Speaker 2: in Scientific American that suggests we view unethical behavior less

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Speaker 2: harshly if it also happens to be creative. So, for example,

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Speaker 2: you tend to disapprove more strongly of someone who robs

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Speaker 2: a man at gunpoint than someone who swindles money from

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Speaker 2: them through this sort of like creative method. And it's

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Speaker 2: almost like you feel bad for being duped, but you

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Speaker 2: also have to imploud the ingenuity.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean it makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Even though the guards that Sing Sing believed Parker had

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Speaker 3: behaved unethically, they really couldn't help but admire his creativity

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Speaker 3: and boldness that he displayed through all of these crimes

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Speaker 3: he was committing exactly.

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Speaker 2: And while that kind of thinking is apparently pretty common,

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Speaker 2: it's also somewhat worrisome for society.

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Speaker 1: Well why would you say that?

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Speaker 2: Well, so Francisco Gino, one of the researchers who worked

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Speaker 2: on the study, put it this way. Quote. It seems

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Speaker 2: that people view creativity as a positive, valuable trait that

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Speaker 2: provides creative cheaters with a halo that makes their transgressions

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Speaker 2: more palatable and more socially contagious. So because the creativity

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Speaker 2: of a con is valued and appreciated by the public,

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Speaker 2: we're actually more likely to imitate that kind of behavior.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I can see the danger there, and

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Speaker 3: it's certainly worth reminding ourselves that we are talking about

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Speaker 3: ruthless people. I mean, these are ones who are knowingly

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Speaker 3: wreaking havoc on others' lives for their own financial gain.

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Speaker 3: But while we can do our best to avoid outright

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Speaker 3: celebrating con artists, I really doubt we'll ever be able

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Speaker 3: to avoid admiring them, at least a little totally.

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Speaker 2: And that's something our author Maria Kuonikova touches on in

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Speaker 2: her work. In an interview with The Guardian. She said, quote,

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Speaker 2: of course you have a grudging admiration for them, because

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Speaker 2: they're really really good at what they do. The name

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Speaker 2: con artist really does capture it. They're artists, and I

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Speaker 2: have an admiration for all artists.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, now seems like the perfect time to check

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Speaker 3: in with Maria and get the lowdown on the works

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Speaker 3: of some of her all time favorite con artists.

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Speaker 2: What do you say? I'm all for it.

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Speaker 3: So our guest today has been studying con artists for years.

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Speaker 3: She's the author of Mastermind and The Confidence Game and

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Speaker 3: the host and creator of a terrific podcast from Panopley

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Speaker 3: called The Grift.

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Speaker 1: And I am addicted to this show.

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Speaker 3: I've listened to I think six of the episodes now

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Speaker 3: and plan to listen to the others. But Maria Kanakoba,

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Speaker 3: welcome to Part Time Genius.

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Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having me.

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Speaker 3: All Right, Well, you know, as I was saying, I've

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Speaker 3: been listening to the show and it's really really interesting

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Speaker 3: and it's fun to kind of follow these common characteristics.

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Speaker 3: Not that every con artist is the same.

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Speaker 5: So I think one thing that people make the mistake

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Speaker 5: of thinking is that you know, con artists are basically

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Speaker 5: people who take advantage of other people, of other human beings.

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Speaker 5: That's the mindset of a non con artist. Con Artists

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Speaker 5: don't think if they're victims as humans really So there's

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Speaker 5: even a term in con artist parlance. It's called the mark.

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Speaker 5: So who is your target? It's a mark because as

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Speaker 5: soon as you feel any sort of real human attachments,

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Speaker 5: then you start feeling guilty, You start having payings about

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Speaker 5: what you're doing to this person, You start thinking about

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Speaker 5: emotional consequences, and then you're really crappy con artists because

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Speaker 5: you're not able to take advantage of this person, and

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Speaker 5: you're not going to be able to keep doing this

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Speaker 5: because your conscience is going to catch up with you.

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Speaker 5: In fact, there was one hilarious well I thought it

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Speaker 5: was a pretty funny story that I came across when

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Speaker 5: I was doing research. There's a very common scam, the

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Speaker 5: IRS scam, where you get a phone call someone says, hi,

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Speaker 5: we're from the IRS. We found that you didn't pay

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Speaker 5: enough taxes. You owe you know, two thousand dollars or

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Speaker 5: whatever it is, plus this speech. If you don't pay

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Speaker 5: it right now, you're going to have to go to

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Speaker 5: jail and all these bad things are going to happen,

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Speaker 5: and people get really scared because people are scared of

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Speaker 5: the irs, they're scared of taxes, and oftentimes de'll panic

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Speaker 5: and they'll end up giving money to the con artist.

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Speaker 4: This particular time.

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Speaker 5: Guy calls and starts with the usual spiel, you know,

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Speaker 5: you owe a lot of money on back Texas. The

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Speaker 5: woman and hiss calling starts bawling. I mean, this woman

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Speaker 5: gets hysterical. I don't know what I'm going to do.

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Speaker 4: I'm pregnant.

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Speaker 5: You know, we own a store that we can't really

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Speaker 5: keep our payments up on. You know, I'm about to

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Speaker 5: have this baby. What am I going to And she

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Speaker 5: just keeps going, I'm going and the corn artist just says, lady, lady, stop,

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Speaker 5: it's a cone nicely done. So that particular guy probably

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Speaker 5: not a very successful con artist.

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Speaker 3: You know, when I think about psychics or fortune tellers,

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Speaker 3: you know, I really had more of this image that

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Speaker 3: people go and they throw down twenty dollars or thirty

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Speaker 3: dollars to have their fortune told and then that's kind

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Speaker 3: of the end of it. And yes, maybe they're ripped off,

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Speaker 3: But I didn't really realize how deep some of these

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Speaker 3: scams go oh, and you tell the story of this

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Speaker 3: one poor college student who ended up getting scammed for

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Speaker 3: you know, I think it was like one hundred and

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Speaker 3: eighty thousand dollars or something, just extraordinary like that. But

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Speaker 3: in that episode you talk about the ability of a

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Speaker 3: con artist to get what you describe as a cold

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Speaker 3: read on someone.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about that.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, it's a skill that I think psychics specifically really

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Speaker 5: have down to just this science almost and con artists

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Speaker 5: have had it too. More broadly, and actually a lot

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Speaker 5: of professions rely on it, you know, sales marketing. The

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Speaker 5: better you are and is, the better you are able

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Speaker 5: to sell. And the essence of it is being able

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Speaker 5: to not only profile someone by looking at them, but

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Speaker 5: get a lot of information from how they're dressed, what

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Speaker 5: they sound like, what words they use, what they're saying,

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Speaker 5: what their face is like, what their emotional bearing is.

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Speaker 5: So every single moment, every single day, we are just

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Speaker 5: throwing off ques to people.

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Speaker 4: So you walk into a.

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Speaker 5: Psychic realm right away, that's one huge clue. You are

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Speaker 5: at a psychic's place. What kind of person goes to

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Speaker 5: see a psychic?

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Speaker 4: Why are you there?

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Speaker 5: Maybe you're there on a lark and you think this

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Speaker 5: is very funny, and yet you did it anyway, so

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Speaker 5: that already says something. Maybe you look really upset. A

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Speaker 5: lot of people go to psychics and they're upset. So

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Speaker 5: right away we know that something happened in your life.

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Speaker 5: What kind of a watch are you wearing? What kind

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Speaker 5: of clothes are you wearing? What kind of bag are

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Speaker 5: you carrying with you? If you're a female, are what

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Speaker 5: question did you ask the psychic. The psychic is also

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Speaker 5: able to ask you some preliminary questions right away and

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Speaker 5: phrase them in a way that makes you not realize

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Speaker 5: you're giving off information. For instance, if I sit down

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Speaker 5: at a psychic, if like you can say, oh, you're

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Speaker 5: not from around and here are you, which seems like

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Speaker 5: she is leading into my soul and knows that I

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Speaker 5: somehow find so far away. But think about how ambiguous

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Speaker 5: that question is, and I'm going to give her a

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Speaker 5: lot of information right away. And by the way, one

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Speaker 5: thing that really helps psychics out is that we are

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Speaker 5: a lot less.

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Speaker 4: Unique than we like to think.

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Speaker 5: Every single person likes to think that there's no one

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Speaker 5: going through what I'm going through. No one knows what

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Speaker 5: it's like to be me.

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Speaker 4: And that's true as.

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Speaker 5: Far as it goes. However, we all all fit into

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Speaker 5: these overarching themes. You know, a lot of people who

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Speaker 5: are going through similar emotional problems are actually more alike

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Speaker 5: in a lot of surface ways, surface ways that make

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Speaker 5: people then open up on those idiosyncrasies. And so as

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Speaker 5: long as you can get those surface patterns down, people

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Speaker 5: think that you understand them, people think that you know

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Speaker 5: what it is like to be them, and people become

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Speaker 5: much more willing to give you a lot of information

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Speaker 5: that they wouldn't normally give out to a stranger.

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Speaker 1: Interesting.

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Speaker 2: So one of the things you mentioned on your show

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Speaker 2: is that carnivals are our first interaction with con artists,

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Speaker 2: and I kind of love that idea. I'd never really

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Speaker 2: thought about it that way, and could you talk a

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Speaker 2: little more about that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it was actually really I was really upset to

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Speaker 5: find it out because I have such vivid, wonderful memories

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Speaker 5: of going to my first carnival as a kid and

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Speaker 5: really really wanting to, you know, win those games and

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Speaker 5: win those stuff animals. And it turns out that there

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Speaker 5: are quite literally con artists in carnivals because a lot

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Speaker 5: of carnival games are crooked, and a lot of carnivals

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Speaker 5: are completely crooked. So basically all of those games where

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Speaker 5: there it's you know, trying to pass a circle over

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Speaker 5: some metal thing without touching the metal, or trying to

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Speaker 5: get you know, a ball into the jug into the

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Speaker 5: milk jug or whatever it is.

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Speaker 4: You know, there there are tons.

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Speaker 5: Of these that they're rigged, and so you can't win

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Speaker 5: unless the person operating the game wants you to win,

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Speaker 5: and they do that to kind of rope people in

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Speaker 5: and get more money. And the more expensive the game,

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Speaker 5: the more likely it is to be rigged. And it's

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Speaker 5: really they do it in this really sophisticated way where

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Speaker 5: they can unrig the game very quickly, so if they

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Speaker 5: see that there's law enforcement, if they see that, if

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Speaker 5: anything seems suspicious, they'll press the love press a button,

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Speaker 5: you know, turn something over, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 5: the game is totally on the up and up and

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Speaker 5: no one can see that it's once upon a time rigged,

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Speaker 5: which is very sneaky and prevents them from being caught.

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Speaker 5: And on a broader basis, I think that even if

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Speaker 5: a carnival isn't rigged, carnivals magic shows when they're all

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Speaker 5: based on deception. The good news is that when you're

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Speaker 5: going into a magic show, you want to be deceived.

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Speaker 5: They're going for entertainment, and then a carnivals they're also

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Speaker 5: going to entertainment. And if you go into Unity side shows,

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Speaker 5: House of Words, how Mirrors, all of those things, you

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Speaker 5: know that there's going to be a loosen and distortion

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Speaker 5: involved and you willingly take part in that. And I

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Speaker 5: think that we kind of love that as human beings.

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Speaker 5: It's really fascinating to suspend belief. I think it's white

437
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,159
Speaker 5: with a Hollywood and movies and all these things, and

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Speaker 5: it's that instinct which then allows con artists to take

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Speaker 5: advantage of us.

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Speaker 3: Maria, I'm so glad that we conned you into to

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00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:23,199
Speaker 3: being on our show today.

442
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,320
Speaker 1: I hope all of our listeners.

443
00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,639
Speaker 3: Will check out The Confidence Game as well as the

444
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:29,240
Speaker 3: terrific podcast The Grift.

445
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,480
Speaker 1: But Maria, thanks so much for being on Part Time Genius.

446
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:33,480
Speaker 4: Thank you guys so much for having me. It was

447
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:45,040
Speaker 4: a lot of fun.

448
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,040
Speaker 3: You're listening to Part Time Genius and we're talking about

449
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,919
Speaker 3: some of the most outlandish con jobs in history and

450
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 3: the no account scoundrels who managed to pull them off

451
00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 3: with style. So Mango, we've already covered a couple of

452
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,120
Speaker 3: notable con men for the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.

453
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,040
Speaker 3: You Know, there was one thing I noticed while doing

454
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,400
Speaker 3: the research for this show is just how many famous

455
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,280
Speaker 3: scams took place during that time period. And it kind

456
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,840
Speaker 3: of got me wondering when was the golden age of

457
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,399
Speaker 3: conmen and what were the conditions of that time that

458
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:15,399
Speaker 3: allowed them to thrive.

459
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd said, late eighteen hundreds are probably the best

460
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,360
Speaker 2: contender for a golden age of conmen, at least here

461
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 2: in the States. I read this interview on MPR with

462
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,600
Speaker 2: Amy Redding, the author of a book on the history

463
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 2: of con jobs. It's called The Mark Inside, and she

464
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,720
Speaker 2: says the nineteenth century was the perfect time for con

465
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,679
Speaker 2: artists because the world was both smaller and bigger at

466
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:35,160
Speaker 2: the same time.

467
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 1: Wait, how does that work?

468
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:37,080
Speaker 6: And bigger?

469
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,720
Speaker 2: Well, the US was expanding west, so there was this

470
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 2: age of exploration going on that had all kinds of

471
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,400
Speaker 2: people striking out for places where the rules of society

472
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,080
Speaker 2: weren't firmly established yet, and they also didn't have a

473
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,159
Speaker 2: real way to get in touch with the rest of civilization.

474
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 2: If they ran into trouble. In fact, Denver was kind

475
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,919
Speaker 2: of the perfect city for this, and why Denver Well

476
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 2: to sharper's and conmen. The city was actually called the

477
00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 2: Big Store just because it was such an easy place

478
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 2: to run cons. And in fact, there was a fixer

479
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,359
Speaker 2: in town, this guy named Lou Blonger, who owned a

480
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,359
Speaker 2: local saloon. Like he paid off the Denver sheriff, and

481
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,120
Speaker 2: he had five hundred con men on his payroll. Basically,

482
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,200
Speaker 2: if you ran a con in town, you had to

483
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,680
Speaker 2: give him fifty percent, but in return, if you ever

484
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:17,440
Speaker 2: had a problem with the law, he'd make a phone

485
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 2: call and settle it for you. He ran the town

486
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 2: for like forty years up until the nineteen twenties, and

487
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 2: as a result, all these amazing cons were invented in Denver.

488
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 1: Wow, Lou really had to go there.

489
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 3: But it wasn't just Denver, of course, sure.

490
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 2: I mean, the con business was bustling everywhere, and as

491
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,200
Speaker 2: Amy puts a quote, it was easier for itinerant swindlers

492
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,639
Speaker 2: to move from town to town, practicing the same small

493
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 2: cons within a given region without getting caught. So pretty

494
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:44,120
Speaker 2: much is the plot of the Music Man.

495
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:45,920
Speaker 3: That's what I actually what I was gonna say, and

496
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 3: I was reading about this one eighteen hundreds con artists

497
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,879
Speaker 3: who followed the exact plan to a t. It was

498
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 3: this guy named Lamartine who traveled through Ohio in the

499
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,719
Speaker 3: spring of eighteen fifty nine, and he would pretend to

500
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 3: attempt suicide in every town he stopped in. He worked

501
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 3: out this whole routine where he would show up and

502
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 3: book a hotel. He would look all depressed, and then

503
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 3: he would call for a clergyman and point to an

504
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 3: empty bottle of loudness.

505
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 1: While lying next to a suicide note. How terrible is that?

506
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 2: Which sounds like guess convincing enough, but how did any

507
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 2: of that line in his pockets?

508
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 3: Well, he figured that his sad plight would evoke pity

509
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 3: from you know, good Samaritans in town who happened to

510
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 3: hear about him, and they would turn up at his

511
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 3: bedside with gifts of cash to help raise his.

512
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 1: Spirits and get him back on his feet.

513
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 3: So Lamartine, you know, he made his way all across

514
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 3: Ohio like this. He might raise thirty or forty dollars

515
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 3: per town, and then he'd disappear again with a free

516
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 3: pass on the railroad. To commit suicide at some other place.

517
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,679
Speaker 2: Which is unbelievable. So, speaking of trains, one of my

518
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 2: favorite convent is Elmer Mead. He's this legend and he

519
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,199
Speaker 2: ran this amazing con called the Magic Wallet, which we

520
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,680
Speaker 2: should talk about some other episode. But my favorite con

521
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 2: that he came up with is the fixed foot race.

522
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 2: And basically, people used to bet on races at the time.

523
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 2: So he'd searched like a nearby town for an upstanding

524
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 2: rich man who also happened to be a gambler, and

525
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 2: he'd lure them to another town on the promise that

526
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 2: he had a sure bet on a foot race. So

527
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 2: he'd give the gambler this tip and then find someone

528
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 2: to bet against him. And we're talking massive amounts of

529
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 2: money here, right, So he'd get a friend to put

530
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 2: up like fifty thousand dollars betting against the rich guy's

531
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,959
Speaker 2: ten thousand dollars, and then the race would start, and

532
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 2: inevitably the rich guy would be winning by a long shot,

533
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 2: and he'd be delighted, right, I mean, his racer would

534
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 2: be way out ahead, and he'd just be thinking about

535
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 2: all the money he was going to collect, and then

536
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 2: suddenly the cops would bust in, Oh wow, and Mead

537
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 2: would yell to all the gamblers to scramble. He'd run

538
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 2: his rich friend to a train station, put him on

539
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,640
Speaker 2: a train, and then make all these promises. And sometimes

540
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 2: he'd even telegraph him at the next station saying the

541
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 2: cops were on the hunt and to keep going. Then Mead,

542
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 2: who had contracted with the racers, the gamblers and the

543
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 2: local cops to raid the place, he'd split that ten

544
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 2: thousand dollars amongst them, and he'd go from town to

545
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 2: town doing this.

546
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 3: Oh what's amazing to me is how how much work

547
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 3: some of these scams take.

548
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 1: You know.

549
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 3: But I think we found another characteristic of con men

550
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 3: that probably helps endear us to them, and that's that

551
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 3: they're entrepreneurs. I mean, we appreciate that can do spirit

552
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 3: in America, even apparently in situations like this, when bending

553
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 3: the rules to get the job done.

554
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, Amy Reading actually has a great quote about

555
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 2: common Let let me find it. She says, a con

556
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 2: artist is, like quote, the bad boy cousin of the

557
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 2: self made men, and a direct descendant of mythic anti

558
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 2: heroes like cowboys or noir detectives who exploit the ragged

559
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 2: edges of the modern world. So, I mean, just like

560
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 2: cowboys or with detectives, we admire con artists because they

561
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 2: represent this sort of lawless way of living that doesn't

562
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 2: answer to any of the traditional authorities that sometimes, you know,

563
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 2: make people feel small or powerless.

564
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's pretty interesting, and I guess con artists makes

565
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 3: sense as another kind of American archetype of the Old West.

566
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 3: You had cowboys or frontiersmen, you know, rail riding hobos,

567
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 3: and especially when you look how far back they go

568
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 3: in our nation's history and how prevalent they still are today.

569
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,360
Speaker 2: So I think one of the best examples of how

570
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 2: intertwined con artistry is with the US past and present

571
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 2: is actually the Nigerian email scam. And I know, if

572
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 2: it's an email scam from Nigeria, how does it say

573
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 2: anything about US history? But that's the thing. Those emails

574
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 2: are actually a modern version of a classic con that

575
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 2: dates all the way back to the French Revolution.

576
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 3: Well, and to be clear, you're talking about those spam

577
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 3: emails we see all the time about a Nigerian prince

578
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 3: or something who supposedly has a huge fortune and willing

579
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 3: to share it if you just provide a small upfront

580
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 3: fee so he can then safely move the funds out

581
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:35,439
Speaker 3: of his country.

582
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: That's what you're talking.

583
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 2: About, right exactly. So they're sometimes called the four one

584
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 2: to nine scams because that's the legal designation for fraud

585
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 2: in Nigeria. But the truth is that advanced fee scams

586
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: like this are way older than email and weren't originally

587
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 2: connected to Nigeria or it's princes.

588
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,360
Speaker 3: Well, you said they started with the French Revolution.

589
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 2: And so that's when we see the first recognizable version

590
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 2: of this con The Boston Globe did this great report

591
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 2: on the scam a few years by, and they broke

592
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 2: it down like this quote. A letter arrived describing and

593
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 2: an aristocrat and exile, say the Marquis de whomever, who,

594
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,360
Speaker 2: in escaping from revolutionary violence, had thrown a chest full

595
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,479
Speaker 2: of jewels into a lake. His faithful servant, now writing

596
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 2: this heartfelt letter, had come back to retrieve it and

597
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 2: unfortunately ended up in prison. With just a little help

598
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 2: from you, a fellow Frenchman, to aid in the servant's

599
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 2: bail or escape, you'd earn a portion of the loot.

600
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is pretty much exactly the same as the

601
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 3: Nigerian prints email so when did the scam make its

602
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 3: way straightside?

603
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 2: So it caught on like wildfire. About a century later,

604
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 2: during the Spanish American War, the scam became known as

605
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 2: the Spanish Prisoner letter and was later modified for use

606
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 2: all over the world. It only popped up in Nigeria

607
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 2: in the nineteen eighties when paper letters began circulating there

608
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 2: promising easy money from the nation's oil boom.

609
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 5: Nah.

610
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 3: And then came the Internet, of course, which really just

611
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 3: seems perfectly suited for a scam like this. I mean,

612
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 3: not only do you save a bundle on postage, but

613
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 3: then you're suddenly able to reach millions of people all

614
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 3: over the globe.

615
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no doubt technology is in the scamma Boost,

616
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 2: But I think there's a deeper reason it's managed to

617
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 2: survive in different forms for so many hundreds of years,

618
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 2: and it's that at its core, the scheme relies on

619
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 2: people's willingness to become small scale war profiteers, which is

620
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 2: a pretty ugly side of humanity to prey on. Though

621
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: it's probably the fact that it works so well that's

622
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 2: even more upsetting.

623
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 3: It's a really good point, and it actually kind of

624
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 3: gets me thinking, you know, maybe there's a little bit

625
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 3: of con artist.

626
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 2: In all of us, which is definitely something worth pondering.

627
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: But before we get into that, how about we break

628
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 2: for a quiz.

629
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 5: And then.

630
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 3: So, our next guest is a private investigator. He's been

631
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 3: a private investigator for over a decade now, but he's

632
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 3: also a critically acclaimed author of The White Fan and

633
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 3: every Man in Menace, and he's here to talk to

634
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 3: us a little bit about being a PI and many

635
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 3: of the other things that we have to ask him.

636
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 3: But Patrick Kaufman, welcome to Part Time Genius.

637
00:28:58,480 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 6: Thanks for having me.

638
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 3: So, Patrick, I understand that you started out as a

639
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 3: cab driver in San Francisco. I mean, how do you

640
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 3: go from being a cab driver making this leap to

641
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 3: becoming a private investigator.

642
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 6: It's funny. I think cab driving is the perfect background

643
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 6: to become a private investigator actually, because you're learning a city.

644
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 6: You know, you go everywhere in the city, you meet

645
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 6: every type of person in the cab. You learn how

646
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 6: to talk to every type of society, and that helps

647
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 6: a lot. When I first moved to San Francisco, I

648
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 6: was very green coming out of college and you know,

649
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 6: not really used to dealing with some of the criminal elements,

650
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 6: and then you drive a taxi for four four years

651
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 6: in the night in San Francisco, and you get a

652
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 6: little more street smart and ready to go talk to

653
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 6: people about some of these criminal cases that I was

654
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 6: working on.

655
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: That makes sense.

656
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 2: So you did this amazing interview in GQ where you

657
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 2: talked about sort of this relatively mundane thing where you

658
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 2: go to find and ask someone a question, but then

659
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 2: there are all these menacing things happening around you. A

660
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 2: guy wielding a wrench, and like people pulling up and

661
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 2: watching you from a car. And so I was curious,

662
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 2: when do you know when to be scared?

663
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 6: Well, I mean I'm scared all the time. Every time

664
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 6: I go to knock on someone's door. Was a little

665
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 6: bit nervous. I'm just I'm kind of shy to begin with.

666
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 6: But I don't know how. You know, you just you know,

667
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 6: you get a feeling. It's kind of like, uh, pornography,

668
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 6: you know what when you see it, you know you

669
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 6: know when you're scared, when you're scared. But always in

670
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 6: that particular instance, we had a pit bull barking at me,

671
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 6: and it was a known huge drug selling family in

672
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 6: Oakland that I was talking to, So it's kind of

673
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 6: in the back of my mind already off to it.

674
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 6: Earlier in the day, I had been threatened to be killed.

675
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: I don't want so that's that's that's really wild.

676
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually you always imagine that private investigators just

677
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 3: have no fear at all.

678
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: It's really interesting to hear this.

679
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 3: I mean, has there ever been a time or a

680
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 3: case that you were working on where you really just

681
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 3: almost said, you know what, I'm not cut out to

682
00:30:59,440 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 3: do this.

683
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: I can't do this work anymore.

684
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 6: I mean I often feel that way. Actually, you know,

685
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 6: it's a tough job. But that case that you were

686
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 6: talking about earlier was one case where I was feeling

687
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 6: that way a little bit because it was a murder

688
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 6: case and it was a gang that had done they

689
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 6: had killed four people and one night just for fun.

690
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 6: It wasn't even a gang saying it was. They were

691
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 6: literally just driving around killing people for fun. And I

692
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 6: was looking for one of the guys in that case

693
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 6: who hadn't been charged in the case, who was going

694
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 6: around all of his old family members and knocking on

695
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 6: the door and asking for him and just by implications

696
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 6: doing that and kind of suggesting that he's could be

697
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 6: a snitch or something. So I remember driving across the

698
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 6: Bay Bridge and thinking, man, this is this guy going

699
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 6: to get tired of me looking for him. So that

700
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 6: was definitely one And what keeps you doing it?

701
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 5: Well?

702
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 6: I find the work really meaningful, you know. I think

703
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 6: st ended up to helping someone who charged in a

704
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 6: case is a great thing to do. The whole government

705
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 6: coming down on someone and they can only rely on

706
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 6: the lawyers and the investigators and the paralagels and the

707
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 6: people trying to work for them against the power of

708
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 6: the of the US government or the state government. I

709
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 6: think it's just a really noble thing to do.

710
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 2: Which is awesome. And speaking of meaningful, we're gonna give

711
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 2: you a really meaningful quiz right now.

712
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: What quiz are we playing with Patrick today?

713
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 2: Mango's. It's called spot the Con because our show is

714
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 2: all about common and every answer has the word con

715
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 2: in it.

716
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: All right, Patrick, are you ready to play?

717
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 6: I think so?

718
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: Okay, we got.

719
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 3: Four questions for you, all right. Question number one, This

720
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 3: state has a law that, to be officially called a pickle,

721
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 3: a brind cucumber must bounce. Also, its capital is Hartford,

722
00:32:52,360 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 3: name that conque.

723
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: An nenunciate there we go, all right? Number two.

724
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 3: Since twenty ten, this breakfast meat has had a legal

725
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 3: church established in its name in Vegas with over thirteen

726
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 3: thousand congregants. Also strips of its star and a sandwich

727
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 3: between lettuce and tomato.

728
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: Can you name that con bacon?

729
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got it, all right.

730
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: See no need to be afraid of this quiz, all right?

731
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: Question number three.

732
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 3: When Wilt Chamberlain scored his one hundred point game, he

733
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 3: was wearing this classic sneaker brand, but you might recognize

734
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 3: them by the Chuck Taylor patch on them.

735
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: Can you name that con convert? You got it? Three

736
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: for three. Let's see if you can go for the

737
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: perfect score. Number four.

738
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 3: When JFK was stranded on the Solomon Islands, he wrote

739
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 3: a message on the husk of one of these hairy,

740
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 3: hard shelled fruits.

741
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: And was rescued.

742
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 3: Name that con This is a hard one. By the way,

743
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 3: it's hard to find the con in this one.

744
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 6: Is that coconut?

745
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely so. In fact, JFK actually kept his inscribed

746
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 2: coconut on his desk as the paperweight.

747
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 1: Wow, all right, well, how has Patrick done today? Mango?

748
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 2: Well, Patrick went an incredible four for four, which means

749
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 2: we'll be sending him home with a Hardy Boys tote bag,

750
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: the best way to show the world you know who

751
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 2: the Hardy Boys are terrific.

752
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 3: Well, I hope all of our listeners will check out

753
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 3: Every Man a Menace as well as The White Van.

754
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: But Patrick, thanks so much for joining us on Part

755
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 1: Time Genius.

756
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 6: Thanks for having me, guys, I really appreciate it.

757
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 3: Welcome back to Part Time Genius, where today we're talking

758
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 3: about some of the most notorious bunko artists in the business.

759
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 2: So you're really having fun with all these colorful nicknames

760
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 2: from common like bunko artists. I think you called him

761
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 2: no account scoundrels, flim flammers.

762
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: Flym flammers. I like that one.

763
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 3: I mean, not only are con artists the most well

764
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 3: regarded of criminals, they're also the ones with the best nicknames. Actually,

765
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 3: I looked into a few of my favorites to see

766
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:55,800
Speaker 3: where they came from.

767
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: So let's see.

768
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,280
Speaker 3: There was a bamboozler, which started out as a slang

769
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 3: word for chie in the seventeen hundreds, might have been

770
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,399
Speaker 3: derived from the Scottish word for bambay or Bombay's, which

771
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,919
Speaker 3: means to perplex. Another good one is bilker, which first

772
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 3: used in the sixteen hundreds as a cribbage term for

773
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 3: someone who spoiled another person's.

774
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 2: Score you love, you love my cribbage.

775
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 3: References, and later came to be, you know, to mean defrauder.

776
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 3: But the Hussarus is full of them, swindler, fleecer, sharpie, shyster, smoothie,

777
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 3: sly boots.

778
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 2: So there's actually one where I wouldn't mind talking about.

779
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, what, what's that one?

780
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 2: Snake oil salesman?

781
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, good. I don't know how I didn't think

782
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 1: about that one. That should have come up already.

783
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 2: I know. So the term's kind of become synonymous with convent,

784
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 2: and it brings to mind ideas of like these old

785
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 2: timey traveling salesmen hawking fake curles from a covered wagon

786
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,839
Speaker 2: or whatever. But in fact, if you look up snake

787
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 2: oil in the OED, it's actually defined as a quack

788
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 2: remedy or panacea.

789
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:51,760
Speaker 1: I don't get it. Why is that surprising?

790
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 2: Right? So it's because snake oil in itself can actually

791
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 2: be a legitimate treatment for some conditions.

792
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 3: Okay, well, forgive me if i'm a little skeptical about

793
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 3: this mango, But this is an episode about cons after.

794
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 2: That, so fair enough. But this is actually the real deal.

795
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 2: Like thousands of the Chinese railroad workers who immigrated to

796
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 2: the US during the late eighteen hundreds, they actually relied

797
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 2: on snake oil to reduce inflammation in their joints after

798
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 2: a long day on the job. It was this medical

799
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 2: tradition that they brought over from their homeland, a bomb

800
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 2: made from like the Chinese water snakes omega three rich oils,

801
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 2: and it was super effective for treating conditions like arthritis

802
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 2: or bersitis.

803
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 1: Yeah that's pretty cool.

804
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 3: So but wait, you're telling me that snakel salesmen are

805
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 3: somehow victims of some long running smear campaign.

806
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 2: Absolutely not. They were total crooks. But once words started

807
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 2: getting out about this Chinese snake oil, these enterprising American

808
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 2: entrepreneurs or con men as you and I call them,

809
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 2: started developing their own homegrown versions of the miracle drug.

810
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,919
Speaker 2: And the most famous of these was the salesman called

811
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 2: Clark Stanley. Have you heard of him?

812
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: No, I haven't.

813
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,280
Speaker 2: He was also called the Rattlesnake King, and he claimed

814
00:36:58,320 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 2: to have found a way to put the oil from

815
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 2: snakes to the same use as the water snakes. But

816
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 2: Stanley snake oil had two problems, right, So the first

817
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 2: was that rattlesnake oil is way less effective for treating inflammation.

818
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 2: It only has a third of the active compound of

819
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 2: a water snake oil.

820
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: Oh okay, all right, and you said there was a

821
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:15,320
Speaker 1: second problem.

822
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the second was that Stanley snake oil didn't

823
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: have any snake oil in all that.

824
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: That's a big problem.

825
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,760
Speaker 2: That's a bigger problem. But this federal investigation in nineteen

826
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 2: seventeen found out that his product was mostly made from

827
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 2: mineral oil and some mix of beef fat and red

828
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 2: pepper and turpentine. But once the secret was out, Stanley

829
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 2: was out of the business, and snake oil salesmen have

830
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 2: ever been linked to that fraud.

831
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,919
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, And as you know, we've talked about

832
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 3: con men as artists, actors, psychologists, storytellers, of course, not

833
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 3: to mention criminals. But you know, that last story reminds

834
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 3: me that a con man is fundamentally a salesman. I mean,

835
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 3: their product is lousier, altogether non existent even But because

836
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 3: that's the case, con artists are actually some of the

837
00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 3: best sales people ever.

838
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's that's that tenacity and that

839
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 2: idea of making it on the strength of your own

840
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 2: wits that people find so appealing. Like we all love

841
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 2: an underdog, someone who's figured out this way to work

842
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,879
Speaker 2: the system to their own advantage. So in a way,

843
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 2: we like hearing about con artists because we get to

844
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 2: live vicariously through them in these like larger than life

845
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 2: stories of people who've gotten there is one way or another.

846
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 6: Yeah.

847
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, which brings me back again to something we touched

848
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 3: on earlier. You know, at some level, are we all

849
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 3: con artists, Because if we're responding to certain characteristics that

850
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 3: typify con artists, maybe the same kind of duplicitous tendencies

851
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 3: crop up in all of us, but you know, just

852
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 3: in a less concentrated form.

853
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 5: Yeah.

854
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 2: So that actually sounds a lot like something I read

855
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 2: about in my research called microcons And these are the

856
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 2: little white lives we all tell on a daily basis,

857
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 2: Like it might be an insincere compliment you give to

858
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 2: loved one, or like an ignored text we make it

859
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 2: up an excuse for missing. We often stand to gain

860
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 2: something from these FIBs, whether it's avoiding on wanted confrontation

861
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 2: or getting like a small reward of some kind. But

862
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 2: does that mean we should all be lumped in with

863
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,800
Speaker 2: conmen in that same shady category, Like it feels like

864
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 2: a big leap. Yeah.

865
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I might be a little bit biased here,

866
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 3: but I'm gonna go ahead and say no to that.

867
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 3: But I do think you're right that micro cons are

868
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 3: a thing we all do. But con artists really seem

869
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 3: to be operating on a whole different level. I mean,

870
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 3: there's a crazy amount of energy and thought that goes

871
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 3: into being a con artist.

872
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 2: I read this Economist article by Alison Schrieger, and she

873
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 2: really nails that difference between con artists and the average person.

874
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 2: She writes, it's an amazing paradox. A conmen has incredible

875
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 2: emotional insight, but without the burden of compassion, he must

876
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 2: take an intense interest in other people, complete strangers, and

877
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 2: work to understand them, yet remain detached and uninvested. That

878
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,800
Speaker 2: the plan is to cheat these people and ultimately confirm

879
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 2: many of their fears cannot be of concern.

880
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, without the burden of compassion. That that's an interesting

881
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,760
Speaker 3: way to put it, And it's that kind of effort

882
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 3: and cold focus that I'm talking about. I mean, we

883
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 3: aren't detached from the people. We carry out our own

884
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 3: micro cons on it's usually just the opposite of that.

885
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 3: And you know, we aren't knowingly hurting folks either, which

886
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 3: is probably the biggest thing that separates us from con

887
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 3: artists and also a reason maybe to rethink our love

888
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 3: affair with the idea of them. You know, con artists

889
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 3: actively seek to do harm to people and they know it.

890
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,359
Speaker 2: Which is true. But I think you should keep your

891
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 2: wits about you for this next part because it's about

892
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,799
Speaker 2: time to jump into the part time genius fact off.

893
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 3: All right, I'll start us off, and we talked about

894
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 3: George Parker and his selling the Brooklyn Bridge multiple times,

895
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 3: but it turns out there was a con artist pulling

896
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,439
Speaker 3: a similar stunt in Paris. This was a guy named

897
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 3: Victor Luswig in the early nineteen twenties, and he decided

898
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 3: to appoint himself the deputy director of the Ministry of

899
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 3: Posts and Telegraphs.

900
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: What a title. It sounds official to me.

901
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 3: So he went around us scrap metal dealers telling them

902
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 3: that the Eiffel Tower was going to be dismantled, and

903
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 3: then he took bids on who was going to get

904
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 3: the medal, and lots of people fell for this. In fact,

905
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 3: the guy who ultimately won the bid he was too

906
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 3: embarrassed by the whole thing to report, of.

907
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 2: Course he was. So I want to do a full

908
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 2: episode on female con artists online because there are some

909
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 2: amazing stories. But one of my favorite characters is Sophie Lyons,

910
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 2: who this writer Jay Robert Nash calls America's first important

911
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,240
Speaker 2: con woman. She started as a prostitute and she married

912
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 2: her way up, like she married a bank robber. But

913
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,760
Speaker 2: over the years she managed to builk over a million

914
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 2: dollars out of people while outsmarting the police at every turn,

915
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 2: like she never got caught. But the thing I find

916
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 2: most fascinating about her story when she retired in eighteen

917
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 2: ninety seven, she started writing for the New York World

918
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,720
Speaker 2: and became the country's first society commist.

919
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 3: Oh wow, all right, Well, one of my favorite con

920
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 3: artists is Princess Cariboo from the island of Javasu. Back

921
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 3: in the early eighteen hundreds, this woman began wandering the

922
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,319
Speaker 3: streets of all men Bury, England. She'd be wearing all

923
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 3: black and was clearly hungry and exhausted, and she was

924
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 3: speaking a language no one could understand. So a wealthy

925
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 3: couple takes her in and they try to find somebody

926
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 3: who can understand what she's saying. Well, in comes a

927
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 3: Portuguese sailor who claimed to understand her and said she

928
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 3: was in fact a princess. Now, the story goes that

929
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 3: she was at sea abducted by pirates, but managed to

930
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 3: escape and found her way ashore. So Princess Cariboo was

931
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 3: treated like royalty, or at least like a celebrity, that is,

932
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 3: until she was eventually found out.

933
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 2: So I've got one for you. Are you familiar with

934
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 2: the Nation of Celestial Space.

935
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: I can't say that I am.

936
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 2: Well, it's a real thing, or at least it was

937
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 2: in the mind of this Chicago resident, Charles D. Mangan

938
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 2: So one night, after pondering the ownership of outer space,

939
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 2: he decided he'd claim all of out of space as

940
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 2: part of the Nation of Celestial Space, which he founded

941
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 2: in nineteen forty nine. But here's the weird part, right. Somehow,

942
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 2: after a lot of phone calls and a lot of harassing,

943
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 2: he submitted his charter of Celestia to the County Recorder

944
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,439
Speaker 2: of Deeds, and it was actually accepted by the state

945
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 2: of Illinois. And of course it never got any further

946
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 2: than that because, like, despite his petitions to the un

947
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 2: and his appeal to secretaries of state, like.

948
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 1: No one answered his phone qull it seems impossible. That's

949
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 1: so crazy.

950
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 3: All right, You're gonna be shocked when I tell you this.

951
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 3: But you know those signs you see all over the place.

952
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 3: They're on telephone polls, highway medians that say you can

953
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 3: work from home and make tons of money. It turns

954
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 3: out those are a scam. Ango.

955
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 1: I hate to tell you that. I know it's hard

956
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: to believe.

957
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 3: So usually what those scammers do is get you to

958
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 3: pay some sort of a fee for a starter kit

959
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 3: of some kind, and then the only way you can

960
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 3: really make money is to convince your friends or other

961
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 3: people you know to do the same thing.

962
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 2: So perhaps the greatest impostor of them all would be

963
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 2: Ferdinand Demara, who's often known as the great impostor. In

964
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 2: his nineteen eighty two obituary in the New York Times

965
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 2: and You're gonna love this, they gave a rundown of

966
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 2: many of the identities he'd taken on the oh bit

967
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,919
Speaker 2: read quote. At times in his life, mister Damara lived

968
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 2: as a Trappist monk, a doctor of psychology, a dean

969
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 2: of philosophy at a small college in Pennsylvania, a law student,

970
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 2: a zoology graduate, a career researcher, a teacher at a

971
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 2: junior college in Maine, a surgeon in the Royal Canadian Navy,

972
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 2: an assistant warden at a Texas prison, and a teacher

973
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 2: in a Maine village.

974
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,399
Speaker 1: That is impressive, I know, But.

975
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: This is the best part, right, Like the identity that

976
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 2: actually got inbusted was the most impressive one. It was

977
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 2: when he was a surgeon on the Royal Canadian Navy

978
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 2: destroyer during the Korean War. He was a surgeon and

979
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 2: after several wounded men were brought in from combat, it

980
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:38,840
Speaker 2: was on him to save them, right, And so the

981
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 2: story goes he had this photographic memory and he'd go

982
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 2: into a back room, look at a medical book, come

983
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 2: back and then actually performed the life saving surgery. Yeah,

984
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 2: he was appairly so successful that he was recognized as

985
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 2: a hero, which actually blew his cover. So still it's

986
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:55,399
Speaker 2: an impressive run.

987
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that is crazy. But back to what we

988
00:44:58,040 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 3: were talking about.

989
00:44:58,600 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: At the beginning of the episode.

990
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 3: It's so impressive that you almost find yourself cheering the

991
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,320
Speaker 3: guy on total So I have to give it to you, Mango.

992
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 1: You win the trophy this time.

993
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 2: Thank you and thank you listeners for tuning in.

994
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:25,720
Speaker 1: Thanks again for listening.

995
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 3: Part Time Genius is a production of how stuff works

996
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 3: and wouldn't be possible without several brilliant people who do

997
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 3: the important things we couldn't even begin to understand.

998
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 2: Christa McNeil does the editing thing.

999
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,280
Speaker 3: Noel Brown made the theme song and does the mixy

1000
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 3: mixy sound thing.

1001
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 2: Jerry Rowland does the exact producer thing.

1002
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,760
Speaker 3: Gabeluesier is our lead researcher, with support from the Research

1003
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 3: Army including Austin Thompson, Nolan Brown and Lucas Adams and.

1004
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 2: Eves Jeffcok gets the show to your ears. Good job, Eves.

1005
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 3: If you like what you heard, we hope you'll subscribe,

1006
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 3: and if you really really like what you've heard, maybe

1007
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 3: you could leave a.

1008
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 1: Good review for us.

1009
00:45:55,120 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 3: Do we forget Jason Jason, who the