WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 155 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:02.880 Alzon Media. 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:05.640 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:09.320 you know. This is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:12.559 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:16.400 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:18.920 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:20.800 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:22.639 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:28.320 you can make your own decisions. Welcome back to it 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:32.360 could happen here, a podcast about it happening here, and 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:34.920 the it that is on everyone's minds right now. This 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:38.080 will be dropping two or three days before the twenty 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:41.839 twenty four election, possibly two or three days before everyone's 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:45.680 life changes substantially. We have no way of knowing. I'm 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:49.000 not optimistic or pessimistic. I have no idea what's going 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:51.159 to happen. But one thing that everyone ought to be 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:54.920 aware of, whether or not Trump wins, is kind of, 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:59.520 to put it bluntly, the man has shooters. And some 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:02.880 of those shooters are literal shooters in that they are 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:07.920 local sheriff's departments, people who call themselves constitutional sheriffs. This 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:10.800 is an organization that's really got off the ground in 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:13.400 twenty twelve, and for more than a decade has been 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:18.039 making inroads with elected Republican leaders, with Republican influencers, with 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:20.399 groups like the Oathkeepers, And these are guys who, in 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:25.000 brief belief, the sheriff is the only is You can 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:27.280 kind of get two versions of this, but generally either 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:30.480 the sheriff is the only legitimate law enforcement authority in 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:33.560 the country or the sheriff is the highest legitimate law 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:36.679 enforcement I've heard it both ways in the country, and 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:39.320 kind of the reason for this basically is a lot 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:42.280 of people in rural areas that are more conservative do 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:45.640 not want to have to listen to or follow the 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:48.880 laws made by people in cities. And more to the point, 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:51.720 they believe that the country has been taken off of 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:57.200 a good track by dangerous liberal communist types, and you know, 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:01.520 they want the ability to use force against you know, migrants, 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:04.280 against the undocumented, against people they see as criminals, against 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:07.240 left wing protesters, and this is kind of a way 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:09.400 for them to argue that they have a right to 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:12.200 do it without any restrictions. Now, the whole story is 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:15.040 much deeper than that, and to talk about what I 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:18.080 think is one of the most important subjects to be 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:21.079 discussing right now, because you know, people laugh a lot 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:23.920 about like the gravy seals or whatever, like, you know, 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:26.680 all these different kind of out of shape militia dudes, 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:29.839 the kind of silly fumbling that we saw a lot 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:32.680 at January sixth, you know, which I think is a mistake, 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:35.680 just because January sixth was still quite dangerous. But when 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:38.079 we're talking about these guys, these are not just like 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:41.560 random yahoo's. These are people who have the force of 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:45.200 law behind them. They're they're armed, they're organized, and they're 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:47.720 quite dangerous. And to talk about how dangerous they are 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:50.120 and where they came from, I want to bring on 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:56.120 a wonderful journalist, investigative reporter and PRA research director Chloe Cooper, 0:02:56.560 --> 0:03:00.480 who has co executive produced a podcast on the Constitutional 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:04.800 Sheriff's movement called The Insurgence, which is a co production 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:09.360 of Political Research Associates and Quintero Productions. Chloe, I think 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:10.519 I got that all right, right. 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:12.880 That was awesome, Yes, thank you, thank you. 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:16.960 Yeah, So let's talk about this. Where do these guys? 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:18.880 I gave a little brief overview, but like, where do 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:21.320 these guys come from? And you know, what are we 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:23.280 seeing from them and the lead up to this election, 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:24.119 Like what are they? 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:26.000 What are they going to do? Do you think? 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.000 Yeah, I mean I loved the overview that you just gave. 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.560 I think that was such a great way to approach 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:37.360 this all. So the leader of the Constitutional Sheriffs and 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:41.760 Peace Officers Association is this guy named former Sheriff mac 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:46.760 and he was a sheriff in Arizona. But one little 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:50.360 important detail to note is that he actually kind of 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:54.960 got his bearings before that in Nevada, and he was 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:59.960 courted by someone who was basically in very close company 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:01.200 with the John Birch Society. 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:04.560 Always comes back to them, I. 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:08.560 Know, he actually becomes a sheriff partially because of some 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:10.880 of the ideas that come out of the John Birch 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:14.560 Society and some of this kind of like emerging trend 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:18.039 that in some cases is actually like skeptical of the 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:22.960 federal government, skeptical of state governments, and then they start 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:25.600 to build out with sheriffs in different parts of the country. 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:29.599 At times, I would say the network has really ebbed 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:32.560 and flowed. But a couple of things that have been 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:35.800 important to note, Like throughout the six years of researching 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:38.680 this network of sheriffs that I think is really important, 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:44.400 especially in advance of the elections. One is that sheriffs 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:47.320 who are aligned with this have really embraced this idea 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:50.560 that you can deputize anybody. 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:51.920 Yeah. 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:54.680 So in some cases you have oath keepers and other 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:56.840 militias going to the sheriff to say, hey, you want 0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:00.560 to deputize me. But in other cases we've actually followed 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:04.000 sheriffs who are going into churches and saying we're deputizing 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:04.479 all of you. 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:07.680 Great sheriffs in Virginia. 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:09.880 When the state passed a law that was like a 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:13.720 law for some gun restrictions, saying don't worry, people were 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:15.000 actually going to deputize you. 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:15.680 Yeah. 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:17.400 That way you can have whatever gun you want and 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:18.440 carry it anywhere. 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:19.000 Yes. 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:20.000 Yeah. 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:23.720 And also what we started to see is. 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:27.640 That during the former Trump administration, he was really actually 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:30.360 courting sheriffs around the country, and I think he started 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.839 to see networks like CSPOA as like part of his 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:37.279 ground troops. And so I think that there is a 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:41.560 potential danger in sheriffs that are part of this formal 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.360 network called the CESPOA or other sheriffs, because there are 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:47.240 hundreds more that just have like aligned with their way 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:51.200 of thinking about things, just playing this role of deputizing 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:54.640 more people and creating this kind of idea of like 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:58.200 a super citizen or people who are kind of aligned 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:02.240 with a far right way of seeing the world, and 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:04.359 then getting deputies to be part of the kind of 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:05.280 ground troops for that. 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:07.800 Yeah, So that's like one thing. 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:11.640 And then in addition to that, there is also CSPOA 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:14.840 itself teamed up with this group called True the Vote, 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:18.240 which has mostly since been discredited, but it's been one 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:21.520 of the loudest groups in the country that has been 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:24.920 spreading this idea that the twenty twenty election was stolen 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:28.120 and has been actually working with county sheriffs to try 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:31.360 to investigate voter fraud at the local level, but in 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:37.040 some cases also working with sheriffs to align with vigilante 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:41.440 groups on the border, for example, to intimidate people from 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:45.080 actually voting. And so there's kind of, i would say, 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:50.640 like a multi pronged series of potential risks and dangers 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:55.520 that could play out, particularly from this network in the 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:58.920 coming weeks. One other quick thing I'll note is that 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:01.440 one of the very late things that we saw and 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:05.200 this actually came out of a close kind of colleague 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:08.520 and the movement. Devin Burkhardt, who works at the Institute 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:11.000 for Research and Education on Human Rights, is that he 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:14.000 came across a plan that the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:15.440 Officers Association put. 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:16.000 Out in Florida. 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:20.920 And the plan is to essentially resurrect kind of sovereign 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:28.360 citizens style groups in Florida, militia's citizen militias in collaboration 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:32.600 with sheriffs to do kind of old school style like 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:38.880 intimidation of election clerks of people involved in the election process, 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:42.120 and they plan to try to hold tribunals if, for example, 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:45.560 the certification of election goes in the direction they disagree with. 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:48.360 And now, as a hardcore leftist, you may find like, 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:50.680 how what do you actually think about voting and whether 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:52.800 that actually changes things and all of that, And I'm like, 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:54.960 I've had those, you know, thought bubbles in my brain 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:57.840 for a long time also, But I think what we have, 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:01.720 what I've started to see is that the Constitutional Sheriffs 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:05.160 to me represent and also the groups of people who 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:08.560 have aligned with them are actual not just white nationalists, 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:11.400 but people who are neo Confederates. And I think of 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:13.920 it more of like a neo confederacy, and that what 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:18.320 we could see is something like sheriffs actually coming in 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:23.480 confrontation with potentially even police and mayors and governors, and 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:26.840 them representing a different kind of politic, a different type 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:29.480 of way of seeing society. And one person also talked 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:32.319 about how the constitutional what are they really referring to? 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:35.920 Are they referring to? You know, what is it the 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:40.400 organic constitution? Essentially before slavery was abolished, before women had 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:43.360 the right to vote, before the you know, Native Americans 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:46.640 had the right to vote. And so if that's the case, 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:49.199 that that is actually the kind of constitution that they 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:54.320 are upholding and representing, then they are actually been quite 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:59.120 successful in building out different alliances around the country within 0:08:59.880 --> 0:09:06.240 a somewhat prominent law enforcement institution that has very little accountability. 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:07.480 Yeah. 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:10.120 And I so this is where I kind of wind 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:14.199 up in conflict with both liberals and a lot of leftists. 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:17.520 Is I think that the leftists who say like there's 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:21.560 no point in voting are wrong for the same reason 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:24.840 that like I think people who say there's no reason 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:28.920 for civilians to be armed, I don't happen to agree 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:30.280 with that, and I don't happen to agree with it, 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:32.760 because I think if somebody who wants to kill you 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:35.760 has a weapon and you have the ability to either 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:38.800 match that weapon or take it from them, then that's 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:41.240 probably what you should do for the sake of your 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.120 own survival. And handing over complete control of the state, 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:46.880 the military, and the police apparatus to the far right 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:50.480 is handing them the most powerful weapon anyone has ever made, 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:52.240 and I just don't think that's wise. 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:52.920 Now. 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:55.720 At the same token, the thing that kind of liberals 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:57.679 will bring up a lot, which is that like, just vote, 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:00.560 just get out and vote. What we've been doing, and 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:06.880 Democrats have overwhelmingly outperformed conservatives in elections this century, and 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:08.880 it hasn't been enough, and it hasn't been enough in 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:11.760 part because these people don't care about the law. You know, 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:14.840 there's a moment in your podcast where you know, I like, 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:16.880 you have an expert on who's kind of talking about 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:20.960 the sheriff deputizing you know, seventy people or whatever in 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:22.880 this small town and being like, well, he's not actually 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:26.160 allowed to do that, Like, you know, the actual letter 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:27.960 of the law does not give him the right to 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:32.559 be doing this. He's misinterpreting the Constitution. But the reality 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:35.120 of the situation is that like he's allowed to do 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:38.080 whatever he can get enough people with guns to back 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:42.080 him in doing And that's that's honestly, the root of 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:46.600 all politics is how much force can you bring to bear, 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:49.840 you know, in order to support the reality you want 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:52.920 to support, right, Like, that's that is how it all works. 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:55.560 And the bet the right is making with all of 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:58.880 these different anti democratic strategies they're trying is that no 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:01.720 matter what they do, and no matter how far against 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:04.920 the Constitution, against the rule of law they take things, 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:09.800 they will have the force to support their version of reality. 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:13.559 And I don't know, I don't know how we thread 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:16.080 this needle. Right, The easiest thing is like, well, maybe 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:20.439 if Kamala has a really resounding victory, there just won't 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:22.280 be much for them to fight on right and they'll 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:25.280 kind of back down. But even if she wins in 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:27.640 twenty twenty four, which I think is the better of 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:30.760 the options that we've got, these people aren't going away, 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:32.760 and in fact, I think you are going to see 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:36.400 challenges at local levels. I think it's not impossible that 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:38.960 we wind up with like an anti pope style situation 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:42.840 with the presidency, whereas like Trump holds his own inauguration 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:45.880 and a bunch of state and local leaders say like, no, 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:50.080 we're not recognizing the Harris administration. Donald Trump is our president. Like, 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:52.760 there's a lot of weird shit that could wind up 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:55.480 as the result of this, And I just don't see 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:59.240 us getting out of this purely through electoral methods. 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:00.440 And I don't know what. 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:03.120 I don't know how else we handle it, right, because 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:05.760 you also get into this situation of like, Okay, well 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:07.920 we're going to send in the police to crack down 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:09.800 on these sheriffs that are breaking the law. Well what 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:11.439 if the police don't want to do it. What if 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:15.360 the police are more supportive of these sheriffs departments than 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:18.120 they are of you know, they're elected leaders in the 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:21.200 state or at the federal level. You know, what if 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:24.000 the FBI, as has happened in the past, what if 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:27.280 the Feds are unwilling to go up against a bunch 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:30.320 of arm heavily armed quote unquote patriots, you know, like 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:32.800 we saw in you know, some of the Bundy shit 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:35.760 from about a decade ago, right, Like, what if what 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:39.040 if the people who are supposed to handle this for 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:42.880 the citizenry in a situation that abides by the law, 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:47.120 abrogate their responsibility because they're scared you know who backs 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:47.480 us up? 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.160 Then wow, Okay, you just put a lot out. 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:52.880 There, Sorry, sir, Like I wanted. 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.760 To respond about oh one more diapologist. 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:58.319 That was my That was my bad that I think. 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:00.000 Okay, a couple a couple of thoughts. 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:05.160 One is that I think that far right movements are 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:10.880 very much mobilizing within the government right now, and or 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:11.920 you could say maybe. 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:15.040 Fascism is trying to mobilize within the government, and. 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:17.520 So I think you have I think we have to 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:21.000 grapple with that really seriously. And so like in terms 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:23.520 of anti fascist strategies, I don't know what is you know, 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:25.080 what could that actually look like right now, but you 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:30.280 have to grapple with the reality that many far right 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:35.400 movements have made serious, serious headway into not just former president, 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:43.480 but into state legislators, into the judicial system, into sheriff's departments, 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:48.480 and so we are seeing a major fissure right now. 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.920 So I don't know how to respond completely to some 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:56.360 of the questions around around electoral politics, but I think 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.240 those are really important questions that you're posing and then 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:02.080 just to go pivot back to my wheelhouse, which is 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:04.960 the right and the far right and some of their strategies. 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.960 One of the things that you touched on is something 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:14.400 that a number of different far right strategies have been 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:18.400 practicing over the years, and it is about this idea 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:24.560 of both nullification or interposition is what they call it. So, 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:27.760 these constitutional sheriffs, one of the tactics that they have 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.240 used over the years is to get sheriffs around the 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:36.600 country to not enforce state laws. Right, and so you 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:40.040 had a whole wave of sheriffs around the country supporting 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:42.400 sanctuaries for the Second Amendment. 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:43.640 Second Amendment sanctuaries. 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:45.840 Okay, so they said in their own county, we're not 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:49.440 going to enforce gun restriction laws. And again think about that, however, 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:51.200 you will all good, but they're saying we're not going 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:53.200 to afford us at the county level. Then you had 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:54.640 all these shrifs around the country being like, we're not 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:56.520 going to enforce lockdown orders, We're not going to enforce 0:14:56.600 --> 0:15:00.320 mask mandates. What are they practicing. They're practicing them muscle 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:02.200 of exactly what you just talked about. 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:04.080 Right right, Yeah, I think that's a great way to 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:04.760 look at it too. 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:08.960 Yeah, independent of what's happening at the federal government, independent 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:13.960 of who wins. Right now, there is like a confederated 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:18.280 situation happening in the country, and these sheriffs and also 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:23.320 others have been very much in those muscles. So it's 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:25.880 not just kind of the militias that will back these 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:28.840 sheriffs that are interested in that type of strategy. 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:29.840 There's the whole. 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:32.440 Like all these different movements that come out of the 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:37.640 Christian reconstructionists all talk about interposition, So the idea of 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:41.760 getting sheriffs, other elected officials within the local magistrate to 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:45.360 prop up and kind of protect your politics, regardless of 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:47.520 the state or federal And so now we have this 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:50.560 interesting moment where you've had in recent history, you know, 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.920 a former president that actually aligned with some of those politics, 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.240 and then you have a bunch of state legislators at 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:01.400 align and so I think understanding some of the strategies 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:04.560 that's important. It's important to understand that you may have 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:06.600 sheriffs that are backing this, and they may not always 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:08.480 align with the police, and they may not always align 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:10.400 with the governor, and so it's going to be a 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:13.000 little different than what we may often think of as 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:16.240 like systemic white supremacy, where all the state and law 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:19.480 enforcement are locking step together. Yeah, I think looking at 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:21.760 the Civil War, as you've done so many different times, 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:25.160 is actually really important, Like how does this reflect patterns 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:29.120 that are more similar actually to you know, the Confederacy 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:31.640 against the North or those or you know, these types 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:34.200 of other moments in US history. 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:37.680 I'm going to throw to ads and then I'll come back. So, yeah, everybody, 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:38.720 here's here's some maths. 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:49.520 We're back. 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:53.000 I wanted to ask, are there cases you can think 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.760 of of, like some of these guys, these constitutional sheriffs 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:59.880 who have been voted out and like forced out of office, 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:02.920 had kind of these some of these policies that they've 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:05.560 been pushing reverse, Like do we have do we have 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:10.320 any kind of case studies of times sheriffs went hard 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:14.040 into this ideology and actually lost power as a result 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:14.320 of it. 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:19.920 So actually, in episode four it touches on it briefly, 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:23.440 but it's a really interesting and kind of rather both 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:25.800 in some ways inspiring but also disturbing. 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:26.720 Case study to some degree. 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:30.520 There is a sheriff in North Carolina, Sheriff Jim pendergraph 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:34.919 of Mecklenburg County, and he was really inspired by the 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:38.479 former sheriff Joe or Pio in Arizona, and he is 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:41.639 one of the people who really champions this program called 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:45.960 two eighty seven G which allows sheriffs to basically deputize 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:50.320 their office as ICE federal ICE agents and work with ICE. 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.200 So he pilots that in Mecklenburg County and then as 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:56.480 basically picked up by ICE and kind of helps try 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:57.440 to spread it all. 0:17:57.240 --> 0:17:58.040 Throughout the South. 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:01.399 Something pretty historic and credible happened in some ways in 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:06.240 twenty eighteen where you had black organizers, immigrant rights organizers 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:09.600 pushed for this whole campaign to oust him and a 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:13.520 number of other close by kind of real white supremacist 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:16.919 sheriffs in North Carolina, and they were successful, and there 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:19.120 was a sheriff that ran and a number of black 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:21.119 sheriffs were elected in the state, and some of the 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:24.919 sheriffs ran on not complying with ICE and knock up 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:27.960 and ending this program called the twenty seven G Agreement. 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:33.320 And seemed like this historic moment, this historic win in 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:37.679 the immediate aftermath of that, as opposed to in moments 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:40.560 where you have sheriff saying we're not going to enforce 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:44.960 the lockdown order, and essentially, besides some reporters reporting on it, 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:49.880 nothing happens. Instead, what happened is that within a few 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:53.360 months of this sheriff ending the twenty seven g agreement, 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:57.280 the federal government comes in and issues pretty massive ICE 0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:01.120 raids through the county and actually, you know, ends up 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:04.600 locking up over one hundred different people, many of whom 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:05.320 got deported. 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:07.879 Pretty soon after that, you had. 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:09.639 A number of other sheriffs in the state, including this 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:13.000 one constitutional sheriff who also had aligned with another large 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:16.119 anti immigrant network called the Federation for American Immigration Reform, 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:20.160 essentially organizing in the state for the state to push 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:23.200 back and push an entire state wide mandate that all 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:27.600 sheriffs comply with ICE. So that's not really an uplifting story. 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:29.679 Yeah, actually not quite. 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:33.840 I think what it demonstrates, in a tough way, is 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:38.000 more about this kind of like when sheriffs claim all 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:40.520 of this autonomy at the local level, which they seem 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:43.280 to actually in many cases be able to practice kind 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:45.800 of quite well, you know, when they say they want 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:51.240 to enforce the state wide gun restrictions or mask mandates. Again, 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:53.240 from what I understand and I've been in touch with 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:56.040 some of the leading constitutional lawyers who are trying to 0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:57.000 look into it further. 0:19:57.200 --> 0:19:58.640 Yeah, almost nothing happens. 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:01.639 But then if you have let's say, a sheriff in 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:05.399 this case, you know, not enforcing ending an agreement with ICE, 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:10.720 there's a pretty serious and significant backlash. There has also, 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:13.000 though been you know, there was an amazing campaign to 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:16.120 eventually get sheriff, your former sheriff, you or Pyo out 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:21.120 that took like a ton of organizing by immigrant rights 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:26.280 organizers in Arizona, and that was pretty incredible and sustained, 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:28.520 and there's been a lot of good stuff written about it. 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:31.560 So it's not it's not not the case that people 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:35.919 have built campaigns and have been able to unseat their sheriff. 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:38.560 Yeah, yeah, I mean, and that's that's good to know, 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:43.360 because like I much prefer the like slow disassembling of 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:45.760 this in a world in which they don't just get 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:48.320 full power and start, you know, going after people with 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:51.960 the wrong signs on their front yards. Been any other 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:56.399 option here, It just it seems like it's one of 0:20:56.440 --> 0:21:00.199 those situations where the deck is very much stacked in 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:03.359 their favor, right in part because of how long I 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:07.080 think this problem has been ignored, Like it's really just 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:11.280 now I'm so glad that y'all's podcast is out, because 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:13.800 I still don't think there's nearly enough attention on like 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:17.120 what these sheriffs are doing, because this really is it's 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:21.919 so fundamentally anti democratic in a way that is also 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:26.000 has a great deal of legitimacy in the eyes and 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:27.800 ears of at least a lot of the people living 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:30.600 in these areas, right Like, this is not just some 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:34.359 Yahoo declaring himself, you know, a militia. It's not like 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:37.199 the State of Jefferson movement saying like we're totally going 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:39.959 to secede from California. These are guys with real power. 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:44.040 So I guess kind of where I'd like to close 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:49.160 by is asking do you see a shift in rhetoric 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:53.119 from these people from like twenty twenty to twenty twenty four, Like, 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:58.160 because I feel like right now the rhetoric is much 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:02.840 more like aggressively anti like the enemy within, whereas you know, 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:05.280 in twenty twenty it was much more focused on gun 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:08.680 rights and going after migrants. But I think you would 0:22:08.680 --> 0:22:11.840 have a better better sense of that than I do. 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:17.160 So one thing is that immediately following twenty twenty, there 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:20.639 was some effort on the part of CSPOA to start 0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:23.000 to slightly distance themselves from the Oath Keepers. 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:25.000 Yeah, CSPO and the Oathkeepers. 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:29.000 I mean, the former Sheriff mac that was the founder 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:31.400 of the CSPOA was on the board of the Oath Keepers, 0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:34.639 and Stuart Rhodes, who's been charged with seditious conspiracy for 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:38.600 his role planning J six, has been working closely with 0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:42.520 CSPOA for the entire time that CSPOA, for the most part, 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:44.239 has been around, So they were working really, really, really 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:46.679 closely together. So there was a little bit of a 0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:51.200 shift after J six where CSPOA tried to distance themselves from. 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:51.880 The Oath Keepers. 0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:55.520 But I would say that the other thing that you 0:22:56.080 --> 0:23:00.080 touched on is also true. As opposed to focusing so 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:04.160 much on kind of nullification of any sort of creating 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:06.879 you know, Second Amendment sanctuaries or those types of things, 0:23:07.280 --> 0:23:13.440 they've really leaned hard into investigating election fraud and kind 0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:15.840 of stop this deal style rhetoric. 0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:17.880 Oh right, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:20.919 And they've really leaned hard in a very frightening way 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:24.960 into more like really harsh and horrible anti immigrant rhetoric. 0:23:25.400 --> 0:23:27.920 And so, you know, back literally at their twenty twenty 0:23:27.960 --> 0:23:32.240 four spring CSPOA convening, they're talking about the great replacement theory. 0:23:32.480 --> 0:23:35.080 They're talking about doing every single thing in their powers 0:23:35.119 --> 0:23:37.920 to make sure that there is not election fraud. They're 0:23:37.960 --> 0:23:40.719 talking about, you know, making sure that I don't want 0:23:40.760 --> 0:23:43.240 to use the terms here, but that undocument people don't 0:23:43.320 --> 0:23:46.080 vote in the elections and those types of things. And 0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:49.080 then what was really frightening in this plan that I 0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:52.159 spoke about briefly in Florida that the state director of 0:23:52.240 --> 0:23:57.880 CSPOA released is that they are actually embracing more far 0:23:58.040 --> 0:24:02.040 right views overtly in that plan than they have in 0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:05.680 any other time actually since they were formed. So they're 0:24:05.720 --> 0:24:08.959 explicitly quoting, for any of your nerds out here that 0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:14.000 follow this stuff, this guy Matthew Truhella, and he openly 0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:16.840 advocated for political violence and was one of the people 0:24:16.840 --> 0:24:20.840 who actually justified violence against abortion providers in the nineteen nineties. 0:24:21.080 --> 0:24:24.560 They quote him numerous times when talking about setting up 0:24:24.560 --> 0:24:29.919 citizen militias to actually essentially target election clerks in the 0:24:29.960 --> 0:24:32.640 event that they are not happy with how the elections 0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:36.240 turn out. So there is a shift I would say, 0:24:36.240 --> 0:24:41.280 in like in multiple directions, some of which are very 0:24:41.400 --> 0:24:44.240 very much just in line with Trump and the Trump 0:24:44.280 --> 0:24:47.720 campaign to some degree, and some of which are already 0:24:48.440 --> 0:24:51.439 kind of, you know, plans for a different type of 0:24:51.480 --> 0:24:53.680 insurgence at the local level, and the event that things 0:24:53.680 --> 0:24:54.280 don't go in their. 0:24:54.280 --> 0:24:58.280 Direction, yeah, I'm going to throw us to ads once 0:24:58.359 --> 0:25:00.440 more and then we will come back and to close 0:25:00.440 --> 0:25:01.080 ourselves out. 0:25:01.160 --> 0:25:17.840 So everybody have an ad and we're back, so quobe. Yeah, 0:25:17.880 --> 0:25:20.520 just kind of inclosing. What are you kind of keeping 0:25:20.520 --> 0:25:22.639 your ear to the ground on as we as we 0:25:22.920 --> 0:25:25.520 near election day? Like, what are kind of your do 0:25:25.560 --> 0:25:28.280 you have any like particular sort of red lines that 0:25:28.320 --> 0:25:30.359 you're keeping an eye out for from these people. 0:25:31.280 --> 0:25:36.240 I am looking closely at Florida and whether some of 0:25:36.280 --> 0:25:40.200 the plans that they've actually laid out in Florida might happen. 0:25:40.520 --> 0:25:45.359 I'm also keeping a close ear to battleground states where 0:25:45.440 --> 0:25:49.400 it seems like a number of these militias are kind 0:25:49.400 --> 0:25:53.920 of activated aligned with some sheriff's departments, and I want 0:25:53.960 --> 0:25:56.600 to particularly see if there's any type of cases that 0:25:57.359 --> 0:26:01.760 kind of show up in terms of either voter intimidation 0:26:02.160 --> 0:26:05.280 or those types of things. And it's just been dawning 0:26:05.280 --> 0:26:06.960 on me more and more that a number of the 0:26:07.040 --> 0:26:10.400 people who are in the CSPA network are actually in 0:26:10.520 --> 0:26:14.840 battleground states, and I just wonder to what degree that's 0:26:15.440 --> 0:26:20.399 a coincidence or not. I think I'm just trying to 0:26:20.560 --> 0:26:22.879 kind of get a sense of how also some of 0:26:22.960 --> 0:26:26.840 the framing from these sheriffs continue to shift and whether 0:26:26.880 --> 0:26:31.720 they actually become activated, whether they're polsees or citizen militias 0:26:31.720 --> 0:26:35.600 that become kind of mobilized as they did to some 0:26:35.720 --> 0:26:36.960 degree in twenty twenty. 0:26:37.640 --> 0:26:41.480 Well, that's what I will be keeping an eye on too. 0:26:41.640 --> 0:26:44.960 Thank you, thank you so much for coming on. Thank 0:26:44.960 --> 0:26:47.600 you for putting together this podcast series everyone listened to. 0:26:47.760 --> 0:26:54.000 The Insurgents Sheriffs co produced by Political Researches, Soviets, Political 0:26:54.040 --> 0:26:59.440 Research Associates and Quintero Productions. Again, that's the Insurgents Sheriffs 0:26:59.440 --> 0:27:02.199 you can find wherever podcasts are found. Thank you for 0:27:02.240 --> 0:27:05.400 coming on. Everybody check this out and hopefully we will 0:27:05.440 --> 0:27:08.879 have a drop of the podcast and the Bastard Speed 0:27:08.960 --> 0:27:11.399 so people can listen in on that too. Thank you 0:27:11.480 --> 0:27:13.840 so much, Chloe, thank you so much for having me, 0:27:13.920 --> 0:27:21.800 and thank you listeners. 0:27:36.000 --> 0:27:37.159 Welcome to Ikadapa. 0:27:37.240 --> 0:27:39.320 Here a podcast taking place on a day that will 0:27:39.320 --> 0:27:41.560 live in infamy and set a country ablaze. I am, 0:27:41.600 --> 0:27:46.040 of course referring to Guy Fox Day. I'm your host, 0:27:46.119 --> 0:27:48.600 be along with these James here. 0:27:48.880 --> 0:27:49.560 I'm excited. 0:27:49.640 --> 0:27:52.080 I'm excited to share with people some of our national 0:27:52.080 --> 0:27:54.240 traditions in the United Kingdom. 0:27:54.600 --> 0:27:57.480 Yeah, and so as a person from the country who 0:27:57.560 --> 0:27:59.360 won the Revolution, I get to. 0:27:59.320 --> 0:28:07.760 Do the British episode because should I fucking yes? So 0:28:08.440 --> 0:28:08.880 all right. 0:28:09.119 --> 0:28:12.840 The the thing about the Gunpowder plot is that, like 0:28:12.880 --> 0:28:15.680 another event occurring in November fifth, there are no heroes 0:28:15.720 --> 0:28:21.000 and everyone like sucks shit. Yes, So in order in 0:28:21.119 --> 0:28:23.359 order to return to a type of heroes and to 0:28:23.640 --> 0:28:27.119 get the context of what the fuck is going on here, 0:28:27.480 --> 0:28:30.359 we're taking a digression because I Am never going to 0:28:30.400 --> 0:28:32.560 get another chance to talk about this part of history 0:28:32.600 --> 0:28:35.639 unless I read a Martin Luther episode. So we're going 0:28:35.680 --> 0:28:37.879 all the way back to the origins of the split 0:28:37.880 --> 0:28:41.880 between Protestantism and Catholicism. 0:28:41.920 --> 0:28:42.200 Good. 0:28:43.680 --> 0:28:46.040 Yeah, I just I was raised to Lutheran, Okay, so 0:28:46.080 --> 0:28:48.840 I got a very very sanitized version of who Martin 0:28:48.920 --> 0:28:51.320 Luther was, and then I read about Martin Luther actually 0:28:51.400 --> 0:28:55.720 was and was like, holy shit, yeah, different dude, Martin Luther. 0:28:56.280 --> 0:28:57.959 And this is the part also that doesn't really get 0:28:58.000 --> 0:29:00.000 talked about in the sort of luther tradition because Luthor 0:29:00.080 --> 0:29:04.160 and the Lutheran tradition is not a revolutionary tradition. Shall 0:29:04.200 --> 0:29:08.760 we say that the thing that Lutheran did, we started 0:29:08.760 --> 0:29:13.240 Protestant dism by accident, was accidentally kicked off a genuine, 0:29:13.240 --> 0:29:16.000 full scale social revolution in Europe with his attacks on 0:29:16.040 --> 0:29:18.120 the Catholic Church. He was not trying to do this, 0:29:18.520 --> 0:29:22.520 but he very quickly has has in fact accidentally done this, 0:29:22.960 --> 0:29:25.560 and through the sort of breach that he'd opened, and 0:29:25.600 --> 0:29:29.240 like the ironclad walls of Catholic monarchical rule, came the 0:29:29.320 --> 0:29:32.840 German Peasants Wars. And my favorite dude in this entire 0:29:32.920 --> 0:29:35.880 period of time, Flora Gehren. 0:29:35.880 --> 0:29:38.080 The thing. If you're familiar with Flora, good name. 0:29:38.240 --> 0:29:42.120 Oh, this guy rules. This guy fucking rips. 0:29:42.440 --> 0:29:45.760 Okay, there is a Knight who there's a lot of 0:29:45.800 --> 0:29:49.360 debate about this, but the sources that I've read a 0:29:49.480 --> 0:29:51.480 long time ago, when I was reading about this guy 0:29:52.080 --> 0:29:54.760 says that he is the only like they are, the 0:29:54.800 --> 0:29:57.880 only like knights, like mounted knights, in like the entire 0:29:58.000 --> 0:30:00.400 history of Europe to defect and join a peasant revolution. 0:30:00.880 --> 0:30:04.520 Oh, they're these guys, they're like the yeah Night so something. 0:30:04.280 --> 0:30:05.240 Yeah, the Black Company. 0:30:05.320 --> 0:30:08.920 Yeah yeah, he rules, Yeah, it slaps, So the druid 0:30:08.960 --> 0:30:12.120 peasant Wars kickoff and he he he enjoys the peasant 0:30:12.160 --> 0:30:15.800 revolution with this sword that is supposedly inscribed with the 0:30:15.840 --> 0:30:18.840 words neither cross nor crown. 0:30:19.040 --> 0:30:25.160 Unbelievably based he fucking proto. Yeah. Yeah, and his thing him. 0:30:25.000 --> 0:30:28.280 In the Black Company, which is part like, it's part 0:30:28.360 --> 0:30:31.800 Knight's part. Like peasants just basically run around the regia 0:30:31.880 --> 0:30:34.520 and kill the ship out of nobles and priests and 0:30:34.840 --> 0:30:37.520 like spread the spread, spread the glorious fire of the 0:30:37.520 --> 0:30:38.280 peasant revolution. 0:30:38.680 --> 0:30:40.840 What hero, Yeah, it's awesome. 0:30:40.840 --> 0:30:43.480 I found a picture of him strong chin as well, 0:30:43.720 --> 0:30:45.480 I will say powerful Joline. 0:30:45.680 --> 0:30:49.120 Yeah. I mean he has an interesting sort of conflicting legacy. 0:30:49.120 --> 0:30:53.520 So he gets killed eventually, the giant preasant revolution is 0:30:53.640 --> 0:30:57.040 eventually destroyed, and we'll talk about Martin Luther's role in 0:30:57.080 --> 0:30:59.040 that in a second. But he has this interesting legacy 0:30:59.040 --> 0:31:01.200 where he's taken up as an national hero by like 0:31:02.280 --> 0:31:07.200 every kind of non establishment faction of German politics. So 0:31:07.880 --> 0:31:10.240 he's like like there's an SS division named after him. 0:31:10.600 --> 0:31:12.720 He's also like one of the heroes of East Germany. 0:31:12.880 --> 0:31:15.160 Yeah, I can see this. Yeah, and like this is. 0:31:15.080 --> 0:31:16.480 One of these things were like and like in like 0:31:16.480 --> 0:31:19.440 twenty and thirties Germany you will have communist social Democrats 0:31:19.520 --> 0:31:22.320 and the Nazis all singing like the same songs about 0:31:22.320 --> 0:31:22.680 this guy. 0:31:22.840 --> 0:31:23.080 Yeah. 0:31:23.120 --> 0:31:25.120 You know, he's one of the few sort of redeemable 0:31:25.160 --> 0:31:26.520 figures in German history. 0:31:27.400 --> 0:31:29.160 Yeah, yeah, rips. 0:31:29.400 --> 0:31:31.880 Yeah, And this is what happens with national myth making, right, 0:31:31.920 --> 0:31:33.760 you just take you sing and make it plastic. It's 0:31:33.760 --> 0:31:36.400 like you mold it to whatever you want it to be, 0:31:36.520 --> 0:31:38.280 whatever you want you a national story to be. 0:31:38.520 --> 0:31:38.680 Yeah. 0:31:38.760 --> 0:31:41.080 Yeah, And like like this happens with Makno and Ukraine. 0:31:41.240 --> 0:31:44.600 This happiest with what we talked was on Margaret Show 0:31:44.600 --> 0:31:46.120 and I did. We did a bunch of episodes about 0:31:46.240 --> 0:31:48.800 anarchism in Korea, and like they do this with a 0:31:48.800 --> 0:31:51.200 bunch of Korean anarchists too. They become like national like 0:31:51.280 --> 0:31:54.120 state heroes, and it's like, well, okay, this guy would 0:31:54.120 --> 0:31:56.840 have absolutely shot you. Like this is one of these 0:31:56.880 --> 0:31:58.680 things where it's like like if you if you if 0:31:58.680 --> 0:32:00.760 you were to show if you were to show this 0:32:00.800 --> 0:32:02.720 guy the SS, he'd be like, what the fuck? 0:32:03.320 --> 0:32:06.720 Like, get my sewed out again? 0:32:07.000 --> 0:32:10.440 Yeah, it's time, It's time to start the killing again. 0:32:10.600 --> 0:32:11.120 Yeah. 0:32:11.160 --> 0:32:14.680 And very specifically, Geary is like he'd actually had known 0:32:14.760 --> 0:32:18.040 Martin Luther back before he like joined the peasants, and 0:32:18.560 --> 0:32:21.200 like specifically the fact that they're they're like these peasants 0:32:21.240 --> 0:32:24.560 are like sacking castles and killing priests and like the 0:32:24.640 --> 0:32:28.480 ruling class very specifically makes is like like the fact 0:32:28.520 --> 0:32:30.640 that the ruling class could conceivably be in danger is 0:32:30.640 --> 0:32:33.680 the thing that convinces Martin Luther to become I think 0:32:33.680 --> 0:32:36.120 I've made this argument on the show before, but I 0:32:36.120 --> 0:32:38.360 think he is, at very worst, like the second greatest 0:32:38.440 --> 0:32:41.040 kind of revolutionary in like the last four or five 0:32:41.080 --> 0:32:45.000 hundred years, because I hold that the greatest kind of 0:32:45.000 --> 0:32:48.160 revolutionary is the one who starts the revolution and then realizes, 0:32:48.200 --> 0:32:49.920 holy shit, I can't control this and I don't like 0:32:49.920 --> 0:32:51.960 where it's going, and then immediately turns kind of revenue 0:32:52.000 --> 0:32:53.400 true to kill everyone who was involved. 0:32:53.720 --> 0:32:54.440 No, not like that. 0:32:54.600 --> 0:32:57.040 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 0:32:57.120 --> 0:32:59.800 So the product of this is that Martin Luther writes 0:33:00.240 --> 0:33:05.680 this book kind of long pamphlet called against the murderous, 0:33:05.680 --> 0:33:09.920 diving hordes the peasants and aligns himself with the princes. Yeah, 0:33:10.280 --> 0:33:15.160 and you know, so then this is the start of 0:33:16.160 --> 0:33:18.160 what it's eventually a century. 0:33:18.160 --> 0:33:20.040 You know, there's a couple of centuries of religious war 0:33:20.120 --> 0:33:21.040 in here where they get to you. 0:33:21.120 --> 0:33:23.320 But this is in a lot of ways, I think 0:33:23.360 --> 0:33:29.040 the beginning of the reproach ma between Catholicism and Protestantism, because. 0:33:29.440 --> 0:33:31.080 Yeah, because class is more important. 0:33:31.600 --> 0:33:34.280 Yeah yeah, and that that actually, weirdly, is it an 0:33:34.320 --> 0:33:36.840 extremely important part of the story of Guy fox Day. 0:33:37.120 --> 0:33:39.720 Yes, yeah, yeah. 0:33:39.760 --> 0:33:41.440 And you know, the other thing that Luther's up to 0:33:41.520 --> 0:33:44.920 in this period is trying to outflank the Catholics on 0:33:44.960 --> 0:33:47.680 anti Semitism, which is pretty hard because like, so this 0:33:47.760 --> 0:33:51.040 is the early this is the early like fifteen hundreds, right, yeah, 0:33:51.120 --> 0:33:54.880 we are like forty years out from two Spanish monarchs 0:33:54.920 --> 0:33:56.720 like expelling the Jews from Spain. 0:33:57.320 --> 0:34:00.560 So like sixteenth century anti Semitism is like peak. 0:34:01.240 --> 0:34:04.240 I don't know, it's it's hard to exactly like tear 0:34:04.320 --> 0:34:07.840 list the like periods of anti Semitism, but like, right, 0:34:08.040 --> 0:34:10.920 like the Holocaust, the Holocaust is obviously number one, and 0:34:10.920 --> 0:34:14.279 then like this period like the Kolmannitsky pull Grom and 0:34:14.320 --> 0:34:16.839 like some of the stuff in late nineteen like late 0:34:16.880 --> 0:34:19.760 eighteen hundred Russia or like yeah, some like the worst 0:34:19.800 --> 0:34:21.239 periods in human history for this. 0:34:22.080 --> 0:34:23.640 Yeah, this is pretty terrific shit. 0:34:23.960 --> 0:34:28.560 And and Luther decides that he's going to like outflank 0:34:28.600 --> 0:34:31.440 the Catholics and anti Semitism, and so he writes this 0:34:31.480 --> 0:34:35.040 book called on the Jews and their Lies, which is like, yeah, 0:34:35.200 --> 0:34:37.400 the first version of this that I wrote had a 0:34:37.480 --> 0:34:39.160 joke here about how it could have been written by Hitler. 0:34:39.440 --> 0:34:41.960 But then I then I like did it a little 0:34:41.960 --> 0:34:44.239 bit of reading about it and was like, holy shit, 0:34:44.880 --> 0:34:49.000 this specific thing was used by like Nazi Like, oh, 0:34:49.000 --> 0:34:52.880 I'm sure Lutheran pastors specifically justifiedly that the Holocaust in 0:34:52.920 --> 0:34:53.520 like thirty eight. 0:34:53.920 --> 0:34:57.080 So that's great. Yeah, how cool. 0:34:57.520 --> 0:34:59.200 Yeah, So this is this is you know, this is 0:34:59.239 --> 0:35:01.839 the sort of one of like what you could call 0:35:02.000 --> 0:35:04.800 like the Protestant counter revolution against the sort of social 0:35:04.800 --> 0:35:07.839 revolutionary forces they kicked off right. Well, the anti Sumptus 0:35:07.880 --> 0:35:10.680 like hard line stuff is a bit later. But there's 0:35:10.719 --> 0:35:14.240 there's one more kind of big uprising which is very funny, 0:35:14.239 --> 0:35:17.120 which is the Anabaptist in Munster who formed this like 0:35:17.280 --> 0:35:21.200 oh yeah, pretty base democratic commune that eventually kind of 0:35:21.200 --> 0:35:23.359 peers into like a sex cult thing, but like in 0:35:23.400 --> 0:35:25.960 a way that's more like people realize they could be 0:35:26.000 --> 0:35:30.840 poly than it is like normal sex cult. 0:35:29.600 --> 0:35:36.719 It's people like like emerging from an extremely constrained like yeah, 0:35:36.880 --> 0:35:38.120 socialized sexuality. 0:35:38.160 --> 0:35:42.239 I guess, yeah, And you know, so this is like 0:35:42.280 --> 0:35:43.960 this is you know, those are the two sorts of 0:35:44.080 --> 0:35:46.440 periods of like high of like the highest levels of 0:35:46.440 --> 0:35:48.960 class conflict that that are the results of the prosent information. 0:35:50.080 --> 0:35:55.560 And this kind of ends with Muonster when they all 0:35:55.600 --> 0:35:58.160 get killed by by the monarchies. 0:35:58.160 --> 0:36:00.719 And this is something about the European peasantry. I don't know. 0:36:00.719 --> 0:36:02.440 Maybe one day I'll do a project on why the 0:36:02.440 --> 0:36:04.720 European pasantry was so much worse at doing were revolts 0:36:04.719 --> 0:36:07.480 in the Chinese peasantry, because the Chinese pasantry knocks off 0:36:07.560 --> 0:36:09.960 dynasties all the time, Like the Chinese central government is 0:36:10.000 --> 0:36:13.240 like one hundred thousand times more formidable as a force 0:36:13.680 --> 0:36:17.680 than like any of these dipshit like Holy Roman Empire principalities. 0:36:17.680 --> 0:36:20.279 But the Chinese peasantry did it anyway that I don't know. 0:36:20.480 --> 0:36:24.200 The German peasantry fought hard, it doesn't go great for them. 0:36:24.520 --> 0:36:28.319 Yeah, I mean the entirety of the European society is 0:36:28.360 --> 0:36:31.040 structured along like the state monopoly on violence and how 0:36:31.239 --> 0:36:34.719 oh yeah, like feudalism is like the sene kwandoon of 0:36:34.760 --> 0:36:37.200 feudalism is having the ability to kill all your peasants. 0:36:37.920 --> 0:36:40.120 Yeah, and it's it's a it's a it's a system. 0:36:40.320 --> 0:36:43.520 And I think this is something that like, you know, 0:36:43.600 --> 0:36:46.200 this is there's reflection of this you see in sort 0:36:46.200 --> 0:36:48.359 of like fantasy a lot, right, where like people will 0:36:48.360 --> 0:36:51.399 write monarchies and then you'll get like or like it's 0:36:51.440 --> 0:36:54.280 using like the science station right where like people people 0:36:54.440 --> 0:36:57.600 understand what's bad about a democracy because you've all lived 0:36:57.640 --> 0:36:59.800 in one and you know all the ways that it sucks. 0:37:00.239 --> 0:37:03.080 But because most of us like haven't lived under an 0:37:03.120 --> 0:37:10.400 actual monarchy. Well okay even then even then yeah, compared 0:37:10.440 --> 0:37:11.200 to this shit. 0:37:11.560 --> 0:37:17.719 Yeah, like people don't understand how just hideous this shit is. 0:37:18.400 --> 0:37:20.080 And this is gonna play a role. 0:37:20.160 --> 0:37:21.400 I mean this this is like again, this is like 0:37:21.440 --> 0:37:24.040 the thing that starts the French Revolution where the first 0:37:24.040 --> 0:37:26.120 time that not the first time but like when people 0:37:26.160 --> 0:37:30.800 actually like start beating the monarchists. Seriously, people have this 0:37:30.840 --> 0:37:33.640 tendency to remember like the violence of the French Revolution. 0:37:33.680 --> 0:37:35.080 It's like, yeah, there was a lot of shit that 0:37:35.160 --> 0:37:39.400 was very bad. But also like these people, these people 0:37:39.400 --> 0:37:41.319 that they are fighting, these are these are people who 0:37:41.320 --> 0:37:43.680 for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, anytime anyone 0:37:43.719 --> 0:37:46.160 has like even dared to talk back to them, has 0:37:46.200 --> 0:37:48.600 just fucking murdered them, their families and everyone around them. 0:37:48.800 --> 0:37:51.120 Yeah, like as horribly as possible. 0:37:51.760 --> 0:37:55.440 Yeah, yeah, and you know, and like as as the 0:37:55.440 --> 0:37:58.600 process of their them holding on to their fucking deranged 0:37:58.600 --> 0:38:02.680 hereditary power system. And the consequence of this is that 0:38:02.760 --> 0:38:05.880 once once these revolutions are put down, sort of Protestantism 0:38:05.960 --> 0:38:11.120 versus Catholicism, Like it's not fully this because it's like 0:38:11.120 --> 0:38:13.880 there are sort of popular e I mean not in 0:38:13.880 --> 0:38:15.880 the good sense, but there are sort of like more 0:38:16.200 --> 0:38:20.799 mass like Catholicism versus Prossetism stuff. But like a lot 0:38:20.840 --> 0:38:24.879 of it politically becomes the domain of like princes who 0:38:24.880 --> 0:38:27.280 are either sort of running wars that are like nominally 0:38:27.360 --> 0:38:32.480 religious based. Although like go go go, look on what 0:38:32.719 --> 0:38:36.319 side France enters on the thirty years War in about 0:38:36.320 --> 0:38:39.400 twenty years when when France enters out the side and 0:38:39.440 --> 0:38:41.880 of Protestants to figure out exactly how much right. But like, 0:38:41.880 --> 0:38:44.279 you know, but this kind of conflict becomes this this 0:38:44.920 --> 0:38:48.719 kind of more the actual politics becomes centralized in the 0:38:48.760 --> 0:38:51.560 ruling class. The metaphor that popped in mind to me 0:38:51.640 --> 0:38:53.360 is one that will make sense to about four people. 0:38:53.600 --> 0:38:55.640 But it's kind of like the way that all politics 0:38:55.640 --> 0:38:57.840 became centralized in the Bath Party and Serie over the 0:38:57.880 --> 0:39:00.280 course of like the sixties and seventies, like all where 0:39:00.280 --> 0:39:02.520 like you have this mass politics, but the only politics 0:39:02.560 --> 0:39:05.600 that matters is the military and the military factions the 0:39:05.600 --> 0:39:08.040 military fighting it out. Like that's kind of what's happening here, 0:39:08.160 --> 0:39:09.960 is that like all of these princes are sort of 0:39:10.000 --> 0:39:11.799 centralizing religious power. 0:39:11.800 --> 0:39:14.759 But this means that like religious wars. 0:39:14.440 --> 0:39:17.440 Quote unquote in conflict becomes the domain of like these 0:39:17.560 --> 0:39:19.840 coups and counter coups by like princes and they're like 0:39:19.880 --> 0:39:23.800 noble factions and shit. Yeah, and that's where we find 0:39:23.800 --> 0:39:26.680 ourselves in the year sixteen oh four, at the beginning 0:39:26.840 --> 0:39:29.520 of the gunpowdered treason. And but before before we get that, 0:39:29.719 --> 0:39:32.160 do you know what else supports the gunpowder treason the 0:39:32.239 --> 0:39:33.120 seventeenth century. 0:39:33.360 --> 0:39:35.280 Yeah, definitely, chump a casino. 0:39:35.400 --> 0:39:38.759 Yeah, they're really major funders. 0:39:39.880 --> 0:39:43.759 The Yeah, it's okay if you lose your money, jump 0:39:43.760 --> 0:39:45.840 at casino guys, because they're trying to blow up the 0:39:45.880 --> 0:39:46.880 houses of Parliament. 0:39:56.640 --> 0:39:59.160 We are back. We are back to the past. 0:39:59.320 --> 0:40:01.440 We're back you I guess the future of where we 0:40:01.520 --> 0:40:07.120 were several seconds before that. So England famously became Protestant 0:40:07.200 --> 0:40:09.799 when King Henry the eighth wanted a new wife and 0:40:09.840 --> 0:40:11.359 the Pope wouldn't let him get a new wife. 0:40:11.400 --> 0:40:15.440 Yeah, yeah, anohing new wife, right, Like, was it like this, 0:40:15.640 --> 0:40:19.279 this was new Wait, that's a rhyme for this divorce divorced, beheaded. 0:40:19.000 --> 0:40:21.080 Survived, survived. Yeah. 0:40:21.640 --> 0:40:23.960 I think it was the first divorced because after that 0:40:24.040 --> 0:40:26.480 he just went he went ham on the wives. 0:40:26.760 --> 0:40:29.319 And so through this incredibly silly chain of events, they 0:40:29.400 --> 0:40:33.320 leave the Catholic Church and become Protestants through Anglicanism, which. 0:40:33.120 --> 0:40:34.879 Is Catholicism light. 0:40:35.760 --> 0:40:37.120 Like yeah, and I. 0:40:37.120 --> 0:40:39.799 Think it's more Catholicism light because like Lutheranism also gets 0:40:39.840 --> 0:40:43.279 described to this Becautholicism light. But I could emphatically state 0:40:43.320 --> 0:40:45.319 there is a major difference because I came, I was 0:40:45.400 --> 0:40:48.720 raised Lutheran, and I fucking have no guilt whatsoever. 0:40:49.800 --> 0:40:55.120 No guilt, zero, I feel bad about nothing, no shame. 0:40:55.239 --> 0:40:59.400 Catholicism to England is more or less Catholicism minus Pope. 0:40:59.520 --> 0:40:59.759 Yeah. 0:41:00.160 --> 0:41:03.719 Yeah, and obviously they differ over time, because yeah, because 0:41:03.719 --> 0:41:07.040 it's just the drift of history, they evolved differently. 0:41:07.239 --> 0:41:08.000 Yeah yeah. 0:41:08.000 --> 0:41:12.280 But then but this this starts like actual a series 0:41:12.320 --> 0:41:16.359 of kind of horrendous religious conflicts inside of the UK 0:41:16.600 --> 0:41:18.600 where just like a bunch of random people get killed 0:41:18.640 --> 0:41:23.000 because once princes become the people controlling religions, everything gets 0:41:23.080 --> 0:41:24.640 unbelievably stupid really quickly. 0:41:24.840 --> 0:41:28.480 Yeah, it's just a vehicle for like elite fucking ambitions, 0:41:28.520 --> 0:41:30.759 yeah right, that they can pick a faction and use 0:41:30.800 --> 0:41:32.360 that to get a little bit higher up the ladder. 0:41:32.800 --> 0:41:34.920 So there's like there's a series of like coups and 0:41:35.000 --> 0:41:38.319 countercups to attempt to like reinstall Catholic rule or get 0:41:38.400 --> 0:41:42.120 rid of and like it's all really boring, Like it's 0:41:43.280 --> 0:41:44.920 it's so boring I cannot haveize. 0:41:45.040 --> 0:41:46.880 Like, yeah, let me tell you, Mayer, I did that 0:41:46.920 --> 0:41:50.520 in history in school for years. Somehow overcame that to 0:41:50.560 --> 0:41:52.799 get a PhD in history, But that shit was dull. 0:41:53.200 --> 0:41:56.920 It's it's hideously boring, like which is insane because like 0:41:56.920 --> 0:41:59.920 like bloody Mary is involved in this and it's still boring. 0:42:00.160 --> 0:42:02.400 Oh yeah, there's a lot of beheadings, the princes in 0:42:02.440 --> 0:42:07.239 the Tower, famous little dead children, a lot of murder. 0:42:07.400 --> 0:42:10.520 Yeah, but boring murder, which is staggering. How do you 0:42:10.560 --> 0:42:13.560 make murder boring? Easy? Ah? You do this shit. 0:42:13.640 --> 0:42:15.680 Yeah, Shakespeare wrote some good place about this shit. And 0:42:15.840 --> 0:42:17.520 for those of you who are interested. 0:42:17.800 --> 0:42:20.879 Yeah, go go consult that. I don't know. 0:42:21.239 --> 0:42:24.880 So by sixteen oh four, a group of guys that 0:42:24.920 --> 0:42:29.480 would eventually extend to like thirteen Catholic guys start to 0:42:29.600 --> 0:42:34.440 form a frankly not very good plan to do a 0:42:34.480 --> 0:42:40.279 coup and appoint the child king to restore Catholic rule 0:42:40.320 --> 0:42:41.760 to Indians. 0:42:41.280 --> 0:42:42.480 The child queen. 0:42:43.160 --> 0:42:45.359 Yeah, they love a child king. 0:42:45.480 --> 0:42:49.480 So this plan has Okay, I'm separating it out into 0:42:49.480 --> 0:42:52.279 three stages. I don't know whether it's fair to but 0:42:52.360 --> 0:42:54.560 I'm doing it. So Part one, use a bunch of 0:42:54.560 --> 0:42:58.359 gunpowder to blow up the English Parliament. Okay, Now there's 0:42:58.360 --> 0:43:01.080 something that's very important to to understand what's happening here. 0:43:01.120 --> 0:43:03.480 This is not a parliament in the sense that we 0:43:03.560 --> 0:43:06.759 understand it today, Like this is not like a representative 0:43:06.840 --> 0:43:11.280 body like the Parliament is. Basically it's an assembly assembly 0:43:11.360 --> 0:43:13.799 of nobles. Yeah, it's the instrument of power of the 0:43:13.800 --> 0:43:16.400 English aristocracy. Yeah, which is one of the greatest forces 0:43:16.400 --> 0:43:18.400 for human evil in the entirety of human like the 0:43:18.400 --> 0:43:20.160 three hundred thousand year history of humanity. 0:43:20.200 --> 0:43:22.520 Yeah, we don't have it. Britain doesn't have a universal 0:43:22.560 --> 0:43:24.719 franchise until after eighteen thirty two, so. 0:43:24.840 --> 0:43:27.080 Like yeah, and this is this is this is sixteen 0:43:27.080 --> 0:43:30.120 oh five, yeah, right, like and throughout that whole period 0:43:30.160 --> 0:43:33.279 that the powers of the aristocracy like weighs, but this, 0:43:33.400 --> 0:43:35.560 this is there unbelievably powerful. 0:43:36.120 --> 0:43:38.759 They don't have an universal manhood suffrage even until late 0:43:39.040 --> 0:43:43.279 eighteen forty eight. Before that, every constituency it has its 0:43:43.320 --> 0:43:47.840 own franchise rules, which makes Parliament even fucking weirder. You 0:43:47.920 --> 0:43:50.120 have some that like proto democratic, and you have some 0:43:50.160 --> 0:43:52.839 where it's just a guy yep, and he just shows 0:43:52.920 --> 0:43:54.640 up to Parliament and represents himself. 0:43:55.160 --> 0:43:57.239 Yeah, it's great. Yeah. 0:43:57.520 --> 0:43:59.799 So you know this part of the plan, the blowing 0:43:59.840 --> 0:44:02.000 up the parliament plan. Great, we love it. We support 0:44:02.120 --> 0:44:06.120 destroying the English aristocracy. Yeah, always great. 0:44:06.520 --> 0:44:08.680 Yet the king, why not it's gonna was it going 0:44:08.719 --> 0:44:10.240 to be at the state opening of Parliament? 0:44:10.360 --> 0:44:12.839 I think it was. It was going to be at 0:44:12.840 --> 0:44:14.440 some session of parliament with the King was going to 0:44:14.480 --> 0:44:16.760 be there. That was part parliament. 0:44:17.120 --> 0:44:22.440 So fun fact, Britain still does this incredibly antiquated. 0:44:22.400 --> 0:44:26.719 Like barbaric country. Yeah, this is where the we need 0:44:26.800 --> 0:44:29.960 China to conquer the UK and established civilization there like 0:44:30.680 --> 0:44:31.600 failed it there. 0:44:31.440 --> 0:44:32.200 Like Britain. 0:44:32.320 --> 0:44:35.319 Britain couldn't even do a bourgeois revolution. Do you know 0:44:35.360 --> 0:44:38.560 how easy it is to do a bourgeois revolution? Like son, 0:44:38.680 --> 0:44:41.799 yet send pulled it on because Britain. 0:44:41.480 --> 0:44:44.080 Has the most established fucking aristocracy in the world. 0:44:44.520 --> 0:44:45.759 So, oh my god. 0:44:45.960 --> 0:44:48.560 The potty state opening in Parliament, which still happens to 0:44:48.600 --> 0:44:52.480 this day, right, incredibly like antiquated procedure. They searched the 0:44:52.600 --> 0:44:55.759 sellers of Parliament before did and no one else is 0:44:55.800 --> 0:44:58.200 trying to blow them up like this is now part 0:44:58.280 --> 0:45:02.200 of the of the like there's a whole that's an 0:45:02.200 --> 0:45:05.359 exchange of hostages, like like there are all these things 0:45:05.360 --> 0:45:08.160 that are built in from bizarre episodes in British histories. 0:45:08.680 --> 0:45:11.480 They send someone a bottoment to Buckingham Palace to be 0:45:11.560 --> 0:45:12.920 like a hostage for the. 0:45:14.400 --> 0:45:14.680 Duration. 0:45:15.239 --> 0:45:17.160 It's an incredible Yeah. 0:45:17.040 --> 0:45:21.160 This is the stupidest system and the like it the British. 0:45:21.280 --> 0:45:25.400 The British system, like I think, functionally it is a 0:45:25.400 --> 0:45:28.880 more advanced democratic system than the American system, but in 0:45:29.000 --> 0:45:32.000 terms of the way that it's like procedure works, it 0:45:32.160 --> 0:45:36.480 is like like the American Constitution, which is like one 0:45:36.480 --> 0:45:40.360 of the most regressive constitutions, like a constitution that failed 0:45:40.360 --> 0:45:44.120 to enshrine one person, one vote. Yeah, right, Like that 0:45:44.239 --> 0:45:49.280 constitution looks like fucking star trek compared to like watching 0:45:49.320 --> 0:45:51.760 the stupid ass king the hauling around a scepter. 0:45:52.160 --> 0:45:56.000 Yeah, some dude three times and then yeah, it just 0:45:56.040 --> 0:45:57.400 gets in there and reads his speech. 0:45:57.840 --> 0:45:58.080 Yeah. 0:45:58.120 --> 0:45:59.880 So so part two of the Gunpowder plot is the 0:46:00.239 --> 0:46:03.040 king who's going to be there too. This is also great. 0:46:03.080 --> 0:46:05.880 We like killing the king. The coolsone media is a 0:46:06.000 --> 0:46:11.680 pro killing the king register establishment, Yes is reticide rules. 0:46:11.760 --> 0:46:13.160 We love it. It's great. 0:46:13.800 --> 0:46:16.719 Part three is to install a Catholic theocracy or a 0:46:16.719 --> 0:46:19.239 place the Protestant one. And we simply do not love this. 0:46:20.040 --> 0:46:20.800 The ship sucks. 0:46:20.880 --> 0:46:25.799 That's where we diverge, sadly yeah, what, this work's very bad. 0:46:26.200 --> 0:46:29.120 Viva Vendetta may have misled you about the intentions of 0:46:29.200 --> 0:46:29.880 Guy Forks. 0:46:30.200 --> 0:46:33.000 Yes, and we'll get to Viva Vendetta because that's I 0:46:33.000 --> 0:46:35.320 think that's an important part of the closing of this story. 0:46:35.719 --> 0:46:39.360 So the plan falls apart. The plotters get betrayed. 0:46:39.480 --> 0:46:42.040 Guy Fox, who's the guy who's supposed to light the gunpowder, 0:46:42.080 --> 0:46:44.399 gets caught and like tortured, which is really funny because 0:46:44.440 --> 0:46:45.120 you'll read accounts. 0:46:45.239 --> 0:46:47.759 I'm going to read a bit from an account from the. 0:46:47.760 --> 0:46:50.600 Somewhat dubiously named English Heritage dot org that is like 0:46:50.680 --> 0:46:51.759 they're just quite pretty good on this. 0:46:51.880 --> 0:46:52.080 Yeah. 0:46:52.320 --> 0:46:56.040 They like they own lots of like big old houses 0:46:56.080 --> 0:46:58.160 and stuff. Like if you want to go and see 0:46:58.200 --> 0:46:59.880 like a manor house, you're pretty going to give them 0:47:00.120 --> 0:47:02.719 money to go in. Like it's it's not like as 0:47:02.840 --> 0:47:05.719 bad as something named English Heritage could have been. It 0:47:05.760 --> 0:47:08.080 could be a lot more racist in an open and 0:47:08.160 --> 0:47:08.919 explicit way. 0:47:09.200 --> 0:47:12.839 Yeah yeah, now, but like to think about this, right, 0:47:12.840 --> 0:47:19.600 it's like they don't actually discribe what happened to him 0:47:19.680 --> 0:47:22.400 during his interrogation as torture, even though they tortured the 0:47:22.400 --> 0:47:25.000 shit out of this guy. Oh yeah, like the king 0:47:25.280 --> 0:47:27.439 was there. Well, they tortured the shit out of the sky. 0:47:28.000 --> 0:47:30.200 Yeah yeah, very unpleasant, imagine. 0:47:30.320 --> 0:47:31.120 Yeah yeah. 0:47:31.160 --> 0:47:33.080 And so eventually, like all the plotters are like either 0:47:33.120 --> 0:47:36.080 captured or killed. And I'm going to read this from 0:47:36.120 --> 0:47:39.480 that English Heritage article quote. Each was found guilty and 0:47:39.520 --> 0:47:43.560 sentenced to a trader's death by the grizzly ordeal of hanging, drawing, 0:47:43.640 --> 0:47:47.640 and quartering. Oh yeah, the men were hanged. It's it's 0:47:47.640 --> 0:47:48.080 so bad. 0:47:48.200 --> 0:47:48.879 I love this shit. 0:47:48.920 --> 0:47:51.399 When I was in school, you don't understand how great 0:47:51.400 --> 0:47:52.960 this is for like eight year old boys. 0:47:53.880 --> 0:47:57.440 Yeah, but Jesus fucking Christ. So they were hanged, cut 0:47:57.480 --> 0:48:01.160 down while still alivee castrated, dismember, and beheaded, and then 0:48:01.200 --> 0:48:03.920 their bodies were cut into quarters and displayed for all 0:48:03.960 --> 0:48:06.880 to see and for birds to feast upon. According to 0:48:06.920 --> 0:48:10.799 all accounts, all face their fates bravely. So these like 0:48:10.840 --> 0:48:13.120 and this is something that like is genuinely important to 0:48:13.160 --> 0:48:14.760 undersand because we're going to get to the French Revolution 0:48:14.840 --> 0:48:15.879 part of the story very soon. 0:48:16.239 --> 0:48:17.920 These people are fucking deranged. 0:48:18.360 --> 0:48:20.960 They're like they're psychopaths, Like they just they do this 0:48:21.000 --> 0:48:24.920 as public entertainments. Yeah, yeah, Like they hang people and 0:48:24.960 --> 0:48:27.880 then cut them down and castrate them and then dismember 0:48:27.960 --> 0:48:30.480 and behead them while they're alive, like they do this 0:48:30.760 --> 0:48:31.520 like for fun. 0:48:31.960 --> 0:48:35.000 Yeah, isn't this the opening scene of They're just s 0:48:35.040 --> 0:48:36.240 been punished by Fuco? 0:48:36.520 --> 0:48:37.240 Doesn't he describe? 0:48:37.400 --> 0:48:41.920 Yes? Yeah, yeah, and like you know, like this is 0:48:42.920 --> 0:48:44.239 this is the thing you have to remember about the 0:48:44.239 --> 0:48:46.839 French Revolution is that like these are the people who 0:48:46.960 --> 0:48:51.799 rule Europe for like seven hundred years, oh yeah, or 0:48:51.880 --> 0:48:55.080 like these motherfuckers and so you know, like they they 0:48:55.280 --> 0:48:57.640 stopped the gunpowder trees and no one gets blown up, 0:48:58.040 --> 0:49:01.560 and November fifth like immediately gets declared a holiday, but 0:49:01.719 --> 0:49:04.560 it's not really the same holiday as as we have today. 0:49:05.280 --> 0:49:08.160 I'm gonna read again from that article quote. Since sixteen 0:49:08.280 --> 0:49:11.200 seventy three and up until the nineteenth century, some crowds 0:49:11.200 --> 0:49:14.480 have paraded an effigy of the pope through the street, 0:49:14.760 --> 0:49:19.400 strung up above a bonfire. This symbolized continuing prejudice, prejudice 0:49:19.400 --> 0:49:23.200 towards Catholics, which again, like you motherfuckers weren't Catholics until 0:49:23.239 --> 0:49:25.000 like fucking seven seconds. 0:49:24.640 --> 0:49:28.799 Ago, Like what is wrong with you? People like I 0:49:29.600 --> 0:49:29.880 like you? 0:49:30.120 --> 0:49:33.160 You were all Catholics until your king decided to make 0:49:33.200 --> 0:49:34.960 a fake pope so he could get divorced. 0:49:35.400 --> 0:49:36.400 Like what the fuck? 0:49:37.960 --> 0:49:41.360 Yeah, yeah, the Anti want to say, some guy's pretty hot. 0:49:41.920 --> 0:49:44.799 Like for a country where like you, like, you were 0:49:44.920 --> 0:49:47.920 all literally Catholics until the king decided you weren't. 0:49:48.040 --> 0:49:52.600 What is it? Oh my god, I hate Christian so much. 0:49:53.160 --> 0:49:55.080 Shit sucks so badly. 0:49:54.960 --> 0:49:58.600 Cooking of parades? Have you have you read about the 0:49:59.400 --> 0:50:04.279 Lewis bom fire in Sussex? No, okay, they like they 0:50:04.320 --> 0:50:07.400 go super hard for bon finite. They also, like, I 0:50:07.440 --> 0:50:09.160 think it was the same day or something that some 0:50:09.200 --> 0:50:12.640 Protestants will burned at the steak thereat. They have this 0:50:12.680 --> 0:50:15.600 big parade where they like they drag, like I think 0:50:15.600 --> 0:50:18.920 it's burning barrels of like pitch or tar. Possibly those 0:50:18.920 --> 0:50:22.400 are the same thing they have. Like, I'm going to 0:50:22.440 --> 0:50:25.960 invite you to google Lewis Lewis bonfire. Just just tell 0:50:26.000 --> 0:50:27.400 me what the first image you see is. 0:50:28.719 --> 0:50:29.840 Oh Jesus Christ. 0:50:30.520 --> 0:50:38.480 Oh no, oh no, yeah that's correct. Yeah, yeah, what 0:50:38.600 --> 0:50:43.120 you see crosses jump scared. So they don't just burn 0:50:43.160 --> 0:50:46.799 guy forks in effigy. They have these big sort of 0:50:47.719 --> 0:50:50.080 every every year they'll have like the person of the 0:50:50.160 --> 0:50:53.239 Year they're going to burn so like effigies that they've 0:50:53.239 --> 0:51:01.520 burned include David Cameron, don't be Clarkson except blatter like 0:51:01.920 --> 0:51:05.560 some of it got surprisingly hard, Like I think at 0:51:05.600 --> 0:51:08.960 some point, like there's like a formal like they've been 0:51:09.000 --> 0:51:13.160 investigated by the police, fight multiple time. Nearly all of 0:51:13.200 --> 0:51:16.840 them are against politicians, like you know, we probably should 0:51:16.840 --> 0:51:20.680 have mentioned that they also burned a Romani caravan, which 0:51:20.719 --> 0:51:21.840 is pretty fucking terrible. 0:51:22.160 --> 0:51:25.080 Yeah, all right, speaking speaking speaking of burning David Cameron, 0:51:25.239 --> 0:51:27.080 do you know who else burns David Cameron? 0:51:27.600 --> 0:51:29.920 Is it the goods and services that support this podcast? 0:51:30.160 --> 0:51:41.720 Yeah? Great, yeah, yeah, we're now returning. 0:51:42.120 --> 0:51:45.080 Let's go back to that thing I was reading about 0:51:45.200 --> 0:51:50.520 what happened to them them haying the Pope. Yeah, so 0:51:50.680 --> 0:51:53.840 the less this symboli is continuing presidents against Catholics. However, 0:51:53.960 --> 0:51:57.240 during the French Revolution, English and Irish Catholics fought from Britain, 0:51:57.360 --> 0:51:59.440 which found itself on the same side of the Pope, 0:52:00.040 --> 0:52:02.640 and perhaps because of this, in around eighteen hundred, Guy 0:52:02.719 --> 0:52:04.880 Fox seems to have finally entered the picture as the 0:52:04.880 --> 0:52:08.120 boogeyman of Bonfire Night rather than the Pope. Fox was 0:52:08.160 --> 0:52:11.000 barely mentioned in fifth November sermons in the eighteenth century, 0:52:11.040 --> 0:52:13.000 and his name doesn't feature in the titles of books 0:52:13.080 --> 0:52:15.560 or tracks before eighteen hundred, but after that date his 0:52:15.640 --> 0:52:17.960 name began to appear, and Fox seems to have quickly 0:52:17.960 --> 0:52:21.400 become a central character in English popular culture, often portrayed 0:52:21.440 --> 0:52:25.560 as a dashing, doomed anti hero. Yeah, and this is 0:52:26.000 --> 0:52:28.960 a reminder that Protestant disn't versus Catholic. 0:52:28.960 --> 0:52:30.319 Catholicism is a fucking joke. 0:52:30.800 --> 0:52:33.840 The ruling class has always had one religion counter revolution, 0:52:34.320 --> 0:52:37.640 and when their asses are on the line, Protestant terrorists 0:52:37.680 --> 0:52:40.439 and Catholic Supreme Court justices can work together, just find 0:52:40.440 --> 0:52:42.040 to make sure you can't get a fucking abortion. 0:52:42.239 --> 0:52:42.479 Yep. 0:52:43.520 --> 0:52:45.239 So you know what we have here. 0:52:45.239 --> 0:52:46.840 And this is an interesting thing in the sense of 0:52:46.960 --> 0:52:50.800 like like Guy Fox becoming the guy that Guy Fox 0:52:50.840 --> 0:52:54.280 Day is about, and not like the pope is literally 0:52:54.440 --> 0:52:58.400 an icon of sort of like of kind of revolution. Yeah, 0:52:58.480 --> 0:53:00.840 that's a good point, like specifically again it's a French revolution. 0:53:01.239 --> 0:53:03.440 But it's interesting because it's like this eventually seems to 0:53:03.520 --> 0:53:06.200 kind of have backfired because. 0:53:06.080 --> 0:53:08.480 Guys Fux kind of like becomes the central figure. Right. 0:53:09.080 --> 0:53:11.520 But then, and this is something that like This article 0:53:11.520 --> 0:53:14.040 also mentions that I want to go into more. Everything 0:53:14.120 --> 0:53:17.919 sort of changes again about this when the movie Viva 0:53:18.000 --> 0:53:19.160 Vendetta gets made. 0:53:19.719 --> 0:53:21.719 Yeah, it's very strange. 0:53:22.200 --> 0:53:24.279 Yeah, and let's actually say before we dovey, can you 0:53:24.280 --> 0:53:25.879 talk a little bit more about like what people do 0:53:26.080 --> 0:53:28.280 drin drink Guy Fox day, because it's fun. 0:53:28.600 --> 0:53:31.279 Yeah, totally. Yeah, So it is fun. 0:53:31.320 --> 0:53:31.560 It is. 0:53:31.640 --> 0:53:35.000 It's a nice like a little as burnings in effigy go, 0:53:35.560 --> 0:53:36.960 you know, a fun one at least. 0:53:36.960 --> 0:53:38.239 What we used to do I grow up in a 0:53:38.400 --> 0:53:40.279 more rural area is. 0:53:40.239 --> 0:53:42.560 We know everyone if you had like wood, or you 0:53:42.640 --> 0:53:45.560 chop down a tree, you know, on your land, or 0:53:45.800 --> 0:53:47.680 you had old furniture, you don't bring it to one 0:53:47.680 --> 0:53:48.760 place right, big field. 0:53:48.840 --> 0:53:51.239 You pilot and you're with it's fucking high. 0:53:51.239 --> 0:53:53.960 It's like a couple of stories high by the time, damn, 0:53:54.040 --> 0:53:56.920 and then you go down. On the fifth of November, 0:53:56.960 --> 0:54:00.000 everyone gets fireworks. This is where I'll tell my fireworks 0:54:00.120 --> 0:54:03.160 story very amusingly. When I was younger, everyone in my 0:54:03.239 --> 0:54:06.320 village club together to buy one of those fireworks displays, 0:54:06.600 --> 0:54:08.319 you know where it's like a box and you light 0:54:08.400 --> 0:54:09.879 one fuse and they all go off. Yeah. 0:54:09.920 --> 0:54:10.359 Oh shit. 0:54:10.400 --> 0:54:12.360 So we've set that up, my dad and his mate 0:54:12.440 --> 0:54:17.480 and we're in the van there. We've lit it. Then 0:54:17.560 --> 0:54:19.680 we've we're sort of standing there like grenny to go 0:54:19.719 --> 0:54:25.480 ooh ah. Unfortunately we've placed it upside down, fucking bouncing 0:54:25.520 --> 0:54:28.520 off the ground and then it flips on the side 0:54:29.040 --> 0:54:30.759 and it just went out behind the. 0:54:30.800 --> 0:54:33.839 Van and it's just fucking smashing the van. 0:54:34.840 --> 0:54:38.400 So yeah, what you do is you get fireworks, you 0:54:38.440 --> 0:54:40.800 shoot them at your friends, you shoot them in the air. 0:54:41.480 --> 0:54:44.040 You have a massive bonfire, like and it's this is 0:54:44.120 --> 0:54:46.280 November and Britain, right, so you know days are short 0:54:46.360 --> 0:54:49.080 nights so long, everything's wet, so you're using a lot 0:54:49.120 --> 0:54:53.719 of petrol to start the bonfire, like you know, irresponsible amount. 0:54:55.080 --> 0:54:56.280 And you just have a huge fire. 0:54:56.320 --> 0:54:58.719 And then if you have all clothes. 0:54:58.840 --> 0:55:01.160 At least, I'm sure different if you grow up in 0:55:01.200 --> 0:55:03.759 like a more urban setting, what we would do is 0:55:03.800 --> 0:55:06.200 we get our old clothes, tie the bottom of the 0:55:06.400 --> 0:55:10.880 trousers together, tie the wrists together, and then you stuffle 0:55:10.920 --> 0:55:14.520 that with straw bedding that you have, right, and then 0:55:14.880 --> 0:55:17.080 you put a head on it pet like a bag, 0:55:17.200 --> 0:55:18.680 like a plastic bag or flower bag. 0:55:18.719 --> 0:55:21.120 You draw a little face on it. And that's your guy. 0:55:22.600 --> 0:55:24.880 You can go around to people's houses and ask for 0:55:24.920 --> 0:55:27.640 a penny for the guys. That had sort of become 0:55:27.880 --> 0:55:30.840 quite old fashioned by the time I was a child. 0:55:31.120 --> 0:55:33.160 But you make these guys and then you take them 0:55:33.160 --> 0:55:35.600 down there, and then you put them on top of 0:55:35.600 --> 0:55:38.799 the bonfire before you light it, and everyone watches as 0:55:38.840 --> 0:55:42.279 he catches on fire and burns to death. And you 0:55:42.320 --> 0:55:45.400 have toffee apples at the other thing, new apples dipped 0:55:45.400 --> 0:55:45.880 in toffee. 0:55:45.960 --> 0:55:46.759 Yeah, I used to like it. 0:55:46.760 --> 0:55:49.440 And you have sparklers, you know, which is you know, 0:55:49.480 --> 0:55:50.920 a little sparker on a stick. 0:55:51.120 --> 0:55:53.799 Yeah, it was fun. It's got something for every age. 0:55:53.960 --> 0:55:55.040 A little kid, you have a sparker. 0:55:55.080 --> 0:55:56.960 And then once you get to you know, like ten twelve, 0:55:57.000 --> 0:56:00.600 you can shoot fireworks at your friends and like it's 0:56:00.600 --> 0:56:03.240 something for everyone. And I guess unless you're Catholic. 0:56:03.640 --> 0:56:03.879 Yeah. 0:56:03.920 --> 0:56:06.719 But that's the thing though, that the Catholic hasn't been Protestantism. 0:56:06.880 --> 0:56:08.080 It's very it's secularized. 0:56:08.160 --> 0:56:10.680 Yeah, like they've been united, they've been united in the 0:56:10.719 --> 0:56:13.000 single Greek British religion of kind of revolutions. So now 0:56:13.000 --> 0:56:15.000 everyone can celebrate Guy Fox state together. 0:56:16.440 --> 0:56:17.240 Yeah, it's true. 0:56:17.280 --> 0:56:19.920 And it's supposed to like reinforce the state and be like, 0:56:20.239 --> 0:56:22.640 if you funk with the state, we will burn you, 0:56:23.400 --> 0:56:26.279 which Viva Vendetta kind of I guess messes with a 0:56:26.320 --> 0:56:26.759 little bit. 0:56:26.960 --> 0:56:30.360 But yeah, and this I think is actually a really 0:56:30.360 --> 0:56:33.439 interesting process because I think Guy Fox now is most 0:56:33.480 --> 0:56:35.719 known for the Guy Fox mask, which was one of 0:56:35.719 --> 0:56:37.440 the symbol and the symbol of anonymous and like one 0:56:37.440 --> 0:56:41.040 of the symbols of Yeah, but it wasn't before that, yeah. 0:56:41.160 --> 0:56:41.399 Yeah. 0:56:41.440 --> 0:56:43.520 And parts of how this happens is so it is 0:56:44.320 --> 0:56:46.640 a character named Guy Fox in Alan Moore's view for 0:56:46.719 --> 0:56:49.440 Vendetta and viv for Vendetta is not about a Catholic 0:56:49.440 --> 0:56:52.400 plot to establish the Catholic rule in. 0:56:53.960 --> 0:56:54.320 Britain. 0:56:54.360 --> 0:56:54.560 Yeah. 0:56:54.600 --> 0:56:57.560 This is about like effectively the government of the UK 0:56:57.719 --> 0:56:59.880 is going to have in five years when they just 0:57:00.160 --> 0:57:02.280 like completely descended to fascism. 0:57:02.800 --> 0:57:04.719 Yeah. I would not that far away now, to be honest. 0:57:04.800 --> 0:57:05.000 Yeah. 0:57:05.040 --> 0:57:07.360 Yeah. And it's about that government getting overthrown by by 0:57:07.600 --> 0:57:08.560 an anarchist revolution. 0:57:09.239 --> 0:57:09.879 Yeah. 0:57:09.920 --> 0:57:12.040 And and it's like this because like you know, Alan 0:57:12.120 --> 0:57:15.200 Moore is a leftist. It's made by the Wachowskis of 0:57:15.239 --> 0:57:18.520 like of Matrix fame, who are also trans leftists, We're 0:57:18.520 --> 0:57:20.440 gonna close on them actually, But you know sort of 0:57:20.440 --> 0:57:22.840 what happens to you, right, is like this mask becomes 0:57:22.880 --> 0:57:25.800 a symbol of like kind of like really altogether detached 0:57:25.800 --> 0:57:28.200 from the original figure of Guy Fox, and like through 0:57:28.200 --> 0:57:30.120 the form of this movie, like this becomes the symbol 0:57:30.200 --> 0:57:33.200 of like the twenty eleven like occupy cycle revolutions everywhere. 0:57:33.240 --> 0:57:34.240 Yeah, and like like. 0:57:34.120 --> 0:57:36.440 One of my most sort of like harrowing memories like 0:57:36.680 --> 0:57:42.080 coming up in that movement was of this like twenty fourteen, 0:57:42.120 --> 0:57:44.640 everything's going By twenty fourteen, everything's going to shit, right, 0:57:44.840 --> 0:57:47.000 Like the Serians of War is kicked off through Bob 0:57:47.040 --> 0:57:51.000 Massacre in Egypt has like slaughtered a bunch of protesters, 0:57:51.240 --> 0:57:55.240 and Egypt's like just under full military rule. And there's 0:57:55.280 --> 0:57:57.840 a like there are like Palestinian kids like wearing Guy 0:57:57.880 --> 0:58:00.480 Fosx masks, and there's like this image that haunts me 0:58:00.520 --> 0:58:02.960 is there's video and an image of it of this kid. 0:58:03.160 --> 0:58:07.040 Is like this kid's like seventeen, maybe like sixteen seventeen, 0:58:07.560 --> 0:58:09.280 like wearing this mask and he walks around a cord 0:58:09.320 --> 0:58:11.080 and this really sniper just fucking shoots him the head. 0:58:11.560 --> 0:58:14.480 And there's this picture of him with like this just 0:58:14.600 --> 0:58:16.439 like mask with a hole in it next to his face, 0:58:16.480 --> 0:58:18.160 and he's just like lying there on the floor, and 0:58:18.200 --> 0:58:21.000 it's like one of the things that is like the 0:58:21.080 --> 0:58:24.560 reason why the way I am now is because. 0:58:24.240 --> 0:58:24.760 Of that shit. 0:58:25.800 --> 0:58:28.200 Yeah, and you know, in some sense, like he's become 0:58:28.240 --> 0:58:30.840 it weirdly and enduring danger to the state in ways 0:58:30.880 --> 0:58:34.520 that he would be extremely pissed about, which, yeah, very 0:58:34.560 --> 0:58:35.120 funny to me. 0:58:35.240 --> 0:58:35.959 Yeah. 0:58:36.120 --> 0:58:38.040 He started as a graphic novel, right, it was a 0:58:38.040 --> 0:58:39.000 graphic novel before. 0:58:39.120 --> 0:58:42.240 Yeah, yeah, it was an Alan rograph novel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:58:42.280 --> 0:58:46.280 And I want to close on on the wachousekis and 0:58:46.320 --> 0:58:48.640 specifically I wanted to shout out so again like the 0:58:48.680 --> 0:58:50.800 watch House. He's made the movie Viva Vedetta, which is 0:58:50.800 --> 0:58:52.960 the thing that like popularized it and is in a 0:58:52.960 --> 0:58:56.800 lot of sense responsible for like the aesthetic of the 0:58:56.800 --> 0:58:59.840 twenty eleven revolutions. And she's found in a new project 0:58:59.880 --> 0:59:02.960 called Anarchist United. I'm going to quote from an interview 0:59:03.040 --> 0:59:05.680 with her quote. It will be a studio wholly owned 0:59:05.680 --> 0:59:07.680 by a foundation. It's owned by this five O one 0:59:07.720 --> 0:59:09.760 C three. The five O one C three provides grants 0:59:09.800 --> 0:59:12.400 for artists and young filmmakers with marginalized points of view. 0:59:12.720 --> 0:59:14.920 Hopefully those people will create stuff, bring it over to 0:59:14.960 --> 0:59:16.840 the studio, the studio can make it, and then fund 0:59:16.920 --> 0:59:20.240 the foundation. So you create this evergreen operation that can 0:59:20.280 --> 0:59:23.440 hopefully exist outside of the studio system if necessary. And 0:59:23.480 --> 0:59:26.160 so they're making a bunch of trans shit, like they're 0:59:26.200 --> 0:59:30.920 adapting Gretchen Felken Martin's Manhunt, which is like the most 0:59:31.000 --> 0:59:35.720 transfem ass like book of the last like that GE's 0:59:35.760 --> 0:59:37.919 a book about trans misogyny and it's getting We're getting 0:59:37.920 --> 0:59:42.240 a fucking adapted. So yeah, it's really cool. And yeah, 0:59:42.320 --> 0:59:44.160 like I think, I think, I don't know that. That's 0:59:44.200 --> 0:59:45.800 the thing I want to close on is like a 0:59:45.840 --> 0:59:49.000 note of hope of like even the most deranged kind 0:59:49.000 --> 0:59:53.920 of revolutionaries actions against the state can sometimes ricochet around 0:59:54.080 --> 0:59:59.320 four hundred years later and into like a revolutionary movement. 0:59:59.240 --> 1:00:02.720 Bounce back in transferm films. And it's like I often 1:00:02.760 --> 1:00:05.800 think about Hunger Games, like, yeah, the Hunger Games symbol. 1:00:06.520 --> 1:00:09.280 I would love to into the lady who wrote Hunger Games. 1:00:09.400 --> 1:00:12.200 I think she's quite like doesn't like the media attention 1:00:12.320 --> 1:00:12.959 so much from. 1:00:12.880 --> 1:00:13.439 What I've heard. 1:00:13.640 --> 1:00:17.120 Yeah, but like that became the symbol of the like 1:00:17.640 --> 1:00:21.680 around the Milky Alliance right in Hong Kong, Myanmar obviously 1:00:21.960 --> 1:00:25.760 even in Thailand they use yeah and think it's fascinating 1:00:25.760 --> 1:00:29.520 how these things have these cultural and like, yeah, they 1:00:29.760 --> 1:00:31.840 sort of bounce around. It becomes a bit completely different 1:00:31.840 --> 1:00:32.400 from what they were. 1:00:32.600 --> 1:00:32.840 Yeah. 1:00:32.880 --> 1:00:35.000 Well, and and you know it's this weird thing too, 1:00:35.040 --> 1:00:38.160 because like the Hunger Games was born of Susan Collins, 1:00:38.640 --> 1:00:42.360 like flipping channels between coverage of like the like watching 1:00:42.360 --> 1:00:45.240 the bombing in the Iraq War and reality TV. 1:00:45.800 --> 1:00:47.720 Yeah, I remember reading that and. 1:00:47.640 --> 1:00:49.360 You see and you watch like this rebound of this 1:00:49.480 --> 1:00:52.240 like the intense reaction of this cultural moment to runs 1:00:52.240 --> 1:00:54.160 two thousand and three, two thousand and four, like like 1:00:54.440 --> 1:00:57.840 what of the peaks of American like kind of revolution 1:00:58.360 --> 1:01:02.320 rebounds around a bunch of like a bunch of bunch 1:01:02.320 --> 1:01:04.840 of revolutionaries of MBAR are doing the like fucking two 1:01:04.920 --> 1:01:05.600 figures thing. 1:01:05.960 --> 1:01:08.080 Yeah, yeah, doing the cub scouts. 1:01:08.160 --> 1:01:08.560 Yeah. 1:01:08.720 --> 1:01:11.000 And so you know, this is one of these things 1:01:11.000 --> 1:01:14.520 where like you know, who knows where where your story 1:01:14.640 --> 1:01:17.120 one day is going to end up in rebound two. 1:01:17.840 --> 1:01:21.440 But if if if we survived this, we are promised 1:01:21.480 --> 1:01:23.520 that this year was the beginning of the golden age 1:01:23.520 --> 1:01:27.080 of leftist transcendement. So let's let's sucking get their war. 1:01:27.400 --> 1:01:31.280 And yeah, if you're in England, enjoy burning ship tonight. 1:01:32.000 --> 1:01:35.640 Yeah, I in America, enjoy burning ship tonight. 1:01:55.280 --> 1:01:58.480 You wake up before dawn. This was once abnormal for you. 1:01:58.680 --> 1:02:01.040 Bet Ever since the election, you found it harder and 1:02:01.120 --> 1:02:04.360 harder to sleep. You just barely drifted off when the 1:02:04.400 --> 1:02:07.480 sound of shouts wafted in from across the street. Reflected 1:02:07.560 --> 1:02:11.560 sirens bounce off your bedroom window. Through a fog of sleep. 1:02:11.600 --> 1:02:15.160 You reflect on the last few days. Voting went better 1:02:15.440 --> 1:02:18.120 you'd feared. It's what happened in the days after that's 1:02:18.160 --> 1:02:21.880 kept your spine at a constant eerie tingle. Several Republican 1:02:21.960 --> 1:02:25.520 led states are refusing to certify their election results. Most 1:02:25.520 --> 1:02:28.360 analysts say the blizzard of lawsuits launched on behalf of 1:02:28.360 --> 1:02:31.320 Trump have no chance at winning, But that didn't stop 1:02:31.360 --> 1:02:34.439 the candidate from declaring victory and promising to carry out 1:02:34.440 --> 1:02:38.200 his own inauguration. No matter what the courts decide, it's 1:02:38.240 --> 1:02:41.400 all absurd, laughable. But you live on the border of 1:02:41.440 --> 1:02:45.080 a majority red county and your sheriffs just announced support 1:02:45.160 --> 1:02:48.200 for the real winner of the election. Your local pd 1:02:48.400 --> 1:02:51.880 have been notably silent, while right wing provocateurs online have 1:02:51.960 --> 1:02:56.240 started circulating allegations of election fraud that the sheriff has 1:02:56.240 --> 1:03:01.560 promised to look into. That was yesterday to day, Just 1:03:01.640 --> 1:03:04.160 after five, You're jolted awake in your bed by the 1:03:04.200 --> 1:03:07.960 sound of breaking glass and screaming. You stay low and 1:03:08.000 --> 1:03:10.600 crawl to your front window to peep out across your 1:03:10.680 --> 1:03:14.080 yard and into the street. Before you, three police cruisers 1:03:14.120 --> 1:03:16.920 are stacked up in front of your neighbor's house. You 1:03:16.960 --> 1:03:20.480 can't imagine why. You know he did some volunteer canvassing 1:03:20.520 --> 1:03:23.840 a few weeks back. He volunteered at a voting precinct. 1:03:24.120 --> 1:03:26.680 Could they be there because of that? You try a 1:03:26.720 --> 1:03:29.440 few different search terms on social media to puzzle out 1:03:29.480 --> 1:03:31.840 the truth. It looks like a few people around the 1:03:31.840 --> 1:03:35.040 country are reporting similar raids, but most of the posts 1:03:35.080 --> 1:03:38.280 register is deleted before you can click on them. There's 1:03:38.320 --> 1:03:41.160 more shouting from inside your neighbor's house, and within seconds, 1:03:41.200 --> 1:03:43.680 a pair of birdly deputies drag him out in front 1:03:43.920 --> 1:03:47.640 and into a waiting squad car. It's dark outside, but 1:03:47.720 --> 1:03:50.200 you think you might see blood on his face. Your 1:03:50.240 --> 1:03:53.240 heart starts to pound. You feel the urge to call someone, 1:03:53.560 --> 1:03:56.360 but the cops are already here. Who else is there? 1:03:56.840 --> 1:03:59.840 As your mind raises, one of the officers stationed outside 1:04:00.000 --> 1:04:03.760 turns back and looks towards your window. Recognition sparks his eyes, 1:04:03.960 --> 1:04:07.160 He sees you. He starts to walk over. You, turn back, 1:04:07.440 --> 1:04:10.160 drop the shades, and with a pounding heart, retreat to 1:04:10.200 --> 1:04:13.720 your bedroom. Maybe he won't knock, Maybe he just wanted 1:04:13.760 --> 1:04:25.400 to scare you. Maybe hello, everyone, hand welcome to It 1:04:25.400 --> 1:04:29.440 could happen here. I'm Robert Evanson. Back in early twenty nineteen, 1:04:29.480 --> 1:04:32.320 I released the first season of this show. It wasn't 1:04:32.320 --> 1:04:35.960 a daily news and politics podcast back then. Instead, it 1:04:36.000 --> 1:04:38.840 gave a focused argument for why a new US civil 1:04:38.880 --> 1:04:41.760 war was more frightening and possible than you might guess. 1:04:42.720 --> 1:04:47.160 Over the last few years, that belief has become unfortunately mainstream. 1:04:47.200 --> 1:04:49.720 It is no longer fringe or unique to talk about 1:04:49.720 --> 1:04:52.080 a new civil war as a real possibility. There was 1:04:52.080 --> 1:04:55.960 a blockbuster movie earlier this year based around presenting what 1:04:56.040 --> 1:05:00.320 it called a realistic picture of such a possibility. Leave 1:05:00.560 --> 1:05:04.040 my thoughts on that for another time. A Marist poll 1:05:04.120 --> 1:05:06.640 from earlier this year showed that forty seven percent of 1:05:06.680 --> 1:05:10.360 Americans consider a second Civil War likely or very likely. 1:05:10.720 --> 1:05:14.120 This is a massive shift considering where things were when 1:05:14.120 --> 1:05:18.000 I wrote this podcast series in twenty nineteen. That number 1:05:18.040 --> 1:05:21.200 includes an expected fifty three percent of Republicans, but also 1:05:21.320 --> 1:05:24.880 forty percent of Democrats and forty one percent of independence. 1:05:25.560 --> 1:05:27.840 Depending on how you want to see it, I've either 1:05:27.880 --> 1:05:30.680 been vindicated as much as as possible for someone in 1:05:30.680 --> 1:05:33.560 my line of work, or I've played an outsized role 1:05:33.680 --> 1:05:38.320 in creating a particularly dangerous eggregre in the collective unconsciousness 1:05:38.360 --> 1:05:42.840 of our nation, effectively talking this possibility into being. I'm 1:05:42.880 --> 1:05:47.080 really not sure either way. My conscience has been troubled 1:05:47.120 --> 1:05:50.080 on that matter ever since the first episode started coming out. 1:05:50.080 --> 1:05:53.320 If you'll remember, midway through the first season, we dropped 1:05:53.320 --> 1:05:56.040 an extra episode I hadn't initially intended as part of 1:05:56.080 --> 1:05:59.160 the run, just trying to stop people from panicking, and 1:05:59.240 --> 1:06:02.560 ever since I've kept that as a particular goal in 1:06:02.640 --> 1:06:05.920 my head. However you want to, you know, think about this. 1:06:06.040 --> 1:06:08.800 The first season of It Could Happen Here undoubtedly helped 1:06:08.800 --> 1:06:11.240 to make my career today. Sophie and I run an 1:06:11.360 --> 1:06:14.880 entire network that employs several dozen people, largely on the 1:06:14.920 --> 1:06:18.600 strength of that series, and yet I have no issue 1:06:18.640 --> 1:06:21.080 telling you that I don't have any idea how election 1:06:21.240 --> 1:06:23.800 Day is going to go. You know, we've had a 1:06:23.840 --> 1:06:26.480 lot of polls lately that seem much better for Harris. 1:06:26.560 --> 1:06:29.400 A number of pollsters are starting to shift. You know, 1:06:29.560 --> 1:06:31.960 there's a good chance that they were hurting in the 1:06:31.960 --> 1:06:35.600 direction of Trump because they didn't want to underestimate him again. 1:06:35.640 --> 1:06:37.800 But there's also a good chance that you know that 1:06:37.960 --> 1:06:40.439 sells her poll is an outlier, and now these guys 1:06:40.480 --> 1:06:43.800 are hurting in the direction of Harris winning because they 1:06:43.800 --> 1:06:46.560 don't want to be embarrassed. I really have no idea 1:06:46.600 --> 1:06:49.320 what's going to happen. My official stance is that it's 1:06:49.360 --> 1:06:52.760 probably pretty close to a coin flip, although maybe one 1:06:52.760 --> 1:06:55.720 that favors Harris now you know, more than one that 1:06:55.760 --> 1:06:59.760 favors Trump. Whatever happens, I don't know what's going to 1:06:59.800 --> 1:07:02.200 had happen, let alone what's going to happen the day after. 1:07:02.600 --> 1:07:04.720 And as I sat down to write this episode, which 1:07:04.720 --> 1:07:06.400 is going to air on the day of the election, 1:07:06.800 --> 1:07:08.960 I went back and forth as to where the focus 1:07:08.960 --> 1:07:13.400 should be. I did consider doing another Don't Panic style episode. 1:07:13.760 --> 1:07:16.400 Perhaps that would have been the call. You know, depending 1:07:16.400 --> 1:07:19.080 on how today goes, people might either be listening to 1:07:19.160 --> 1:07:24.160 this and you know, relaxing or listening to this and 1:07:24.400 --> 1:07:26.439 in a heightened state of panic. You know, it really 1:07:26.440 --> 1:07:29.000 depends on where things are and where things are and 1:07:29.040 --> 1:07:31.840 the counting of votes by this period of time. My 1:07:31.960 --> 1:07:35.320 reasoning on what I decided to do is pretty simple, 1:07:35.320 --> 1:07:37.400 which is that I think there's a good chance we 1:07:37.480 --> 1:07:39.960 either know or have a strong inkling of how this 1:07:40.080 --> 1:07:42.200 election is going to shake out by the time this 1:07:42.320 --> 1:07:44.920 episode airs, And at the time I write this, the 1:07:44.960 --> 1:07:47.760 indicators do look better for Harris than for Trump, enough 1:07:47.760 --> 1:07:50.480 that I'd say the election leans in her direction. And 1:07:50.560 --> 1:07:53.240 so I think there's a lot of value in talking 1:07:53.320 --> 1:07:57.120 about what might happen in the aftermath of that. If 1:07:57.120 --> 1:08:01.560 Trump tries to protest the election, and if he goes 1:08:01.640 --> 1:08:04.760 particularly trying to protest by force, and if that's the case, 1:08:05.040 --> 1:08:07.720 if that's the direction he lands in, I think these 1:08:07.760 --> 1:08:10.360 shooters that we have to worry about. And I mean 1:08:10.400 --> 1:08:12.760 that in the figurative sense, right, you know, people who 1:08:12.800 --> 1:08:15.920 support him, who will put skin in the game in 1:08:16.040 --> 1:08:18.599 order to try to force him into office. I think 1:08:18.600 --> 1:08:20.920 they're different than they were last time. I don't think 1:08:20.960 --> 1:08:23.280 the threat here is that a bunch of proud boys 1:08:23.360 --> 1:08:26.920 and the like raid the capital next January. I think 1:08:26.960 --> 1:08:29.360 the threat here has a lot more to do with 1:08:29.520 --> 1:08:32.880 licensed law enforcement officers who have already declared themselves in 1:08:32.960 --> 1:08:35.760 the tank for Trump. We ran an episode just the 1:08:35.800 --> 1:08:39.559 other day about the Constitutional Sheriff's movement. There's a lot 1:08:39.560 --> 1:08:43.240 to say about that. One in four law enforcement officers 1:08:43.240 --> 1:08:45.800 today report to a sheriff. They make twenty percent of 1:08:45.840 --> 1:08:49.320 all arrests in the country. Earlier this year, Wired published 1:08:49.320 --> 1:08:52.120 an article on the far right sheriff's ready to disrupt 1:08:52.160 --> 1:08:55.880 the election. It focused heavily on dar Leif, who sits 1:08:55.880 --> 1:08:58.679 on the board of the Constitutional Sheriffs in Peace Officers 1:08:58.720 --> 1:09:05.960 Association ORPOA. Leif, a Trump supporter and sheriff in Berry County, Michigan, 1:09:06.040 --> 1:09:08.840 has spent the lead up to this election investigating the 1:09:08.880 --> 1:09:12.200 twenty twenty election. He's tried to seize voting machines and 1:09:12.280 --> 1:09:17.040 run militia training courses where he offers to teach potential jurors, homeschoolers, ladies, 1:09:17.040 --> 1:09:20.080 and gentlemen how to form an ad hoc posse, each 1:09:20.120 --> 1:09:23.400 member armed with quote a standard Air fifteen type military 1:09:23.520 --> 1:09:26.479 grade weapon and at least five hundred rounds of AMMO. 1:09:27.920 --> 1:09:30.800 Speaking of five hundred rounds of AMMO, he probably can't 1:09:30.800 --> 1:09:32.000 buy that from our sponsors. 1:09:32.040 --> 1:09:33.120 But here they are. 1:09:43.720 --> 1:09:47.840 We're back, and we're talking about a constitutional sheriff who 1:09:47.840 --> 1:09:52.000 sits on the board of that organization named dar Leaf 1:09:52.120 --> 1:09:55.440 Leif has already promised to have his posse patrolling stations 1:09:55.479 --> 1:09:58.360 in Barry County to watch for evidence of fraud and 1:09:58.400 --> 1:10:00.960 the legal immigrant voting in what expected to be one 1:10:00.960 --> 1:10:04.120 of the swing states this election might hinge on. Deeply 1:10:04.200 --> 1:10:06.920 reported articles like that Wired piece have warred in my 1:10:07.040 --> 1:10:10.960 own personal paranoia with troubling accounts on social media. The 1:10:11.040 --> 1:10:13.160 day before the election, which is when I wrote this, 1:10:13.479 --> 1:10:16.040 I came across a post on the Pennsylvania subreddit from 1:10:16.040 --> 1:10:18.920 a Philly voter titled my dad just got harassed by 1:10:18.920 --> 1:10:20.679 a police officer about the election. 1:10:21.040 --> 1:10:21.479 Quote. 1:10:21.680 --> 1:10:23.760 He was driving down the Old Lincoln Highway when a 1:10:23.760 --> 1:10:27.120 trooper stopped him and asked him if he was voting tomorrow. Trooper, 1:10:27.160 --> 1:10:28.480 will you be voting tomorrow? 1:10:28.720 --> 1:10:29.040 Dad? 1:10:29.120 --> 1:10:32.040 That's none of your business, trooper. Who are you voting 1:10:32.040 --> 1:10:32.719 for tomorrow? 1:10:32.920 --> 1:10:33.280 Dad? 1:10:33.400 --> 1:10:37.479 None of your business, trooper, Oh, sir, you're illegal now. 1:10:37.479 --> 1:10:40.120 The poster's dad, who is Hispanic, stated that he didn't 1:10:40.160 --> 1:10:43.160 have to answer that and asked if he was being detained. 1:10:43.600 --> 1:10:46.880 The trooper let him go, but later, according to the poster, 1:10:47.200 --> 1:10:50.120 this happened when my dad went to the precinct. There 1:10:50.120 --> 1:10:53.040 were three other people there to report the exact same story. 1:10:53.120 --> 1:10:56.200 Election harassment at a traffic stop. Turns out the officer 1:10:56.320 --> 1:10:59.480 or officers doing it arn't even from Bucks County or Pennsylvania. 1:10:59.600 --> 1:11:03.040 Their new Jersey State troopers wiled across state borders to 1:11:03.080 --> 1:11:06.880 harass people driving down the highway. In the lead up 1:11:06.920 --> 1:11:09.479 to the twenty twenty election, we were all deeply worried 1:11:09.520 --> 1:11:12.479 about the dangers of different far right groups, militias, and 1:11:12.640 --> 1:11:15.800 organizations like the Proud Boys who wore right wing death 1:11:15.840 --> 1:11:19.200 squad patches and threatened to throw leftists out of helicopters 1:11:19.240 --> 1:11:23.200 when their god Emperor won reelection. Today, most of those 1:11:23.240 --> 1:11:26.600 figures are either a spent force or something that cannot 1:11:26.640 --> 1:11:30.240 act on its own, reliant upon the backing of groups 1:11:30.280 --> 1:11:34.040 like the aforementioned constitutional sheriffs, or being empowered by a 1:11:34.080 --> 1:11:36.200 Trump controlled White House if they want to have any 1:11:36.280 --> 1:11:40.280 hope of being directly relevant again. The positive side of 1:11:40.320 --> 1:11:42.920 this is that it allows us to triage our fears. 1:11:43.439 --> 1:11:47.200 The downside is that independent paramilitary actors are in fact 1:11:47.479 --> 1:11:52.120 something we can easily combat as individuals and communities. Portland 1:11:52.120 --> 1:11:54.759 proved that when it eventually won its five year street 1:11:54.800 --> 1:11:57.799 battle to oust these sundry right wing groups from constant 1:11:57.840 --> 1:12:01.400 occupations of the city. Groups like the Proud Boys cross 1:12:01.479 --> 1:12:04.400 the line into outright violence, it is legal to meet 1:12:04.439 --> 1:12:07.639 them with defensive violence, and they can and have been 1:12:07.640 --> 1:12:12.120 beaten this way. That's simply not something the extant left 1:12:12.120 --> 1:12:15.719 wing community defense organizations and political groups in this country 1:12:16.080 --> 1:12:20.200 can say and do against. For example, law enforcement entities 1:12:20.280 --> 1:12:23.600 hell bent on executing a purge against the left. In 1:12:23.720 --> 1:12:27.040 rallies prior to the election, Trump has often merged promises 1:12:27.080 --> 1:12:30.720 to prosecute his political opponents US with promises to use 1:12:30.760 --> 1:12:33.880 ice to deport twenty million illegals and descend in the 1:12:33.880 --> 1:12:37.600 military or federal law enforcement to clean up cities. I 1:12:37.640 --> 1:12:39.320 want to quote now from an article in The New 1:12:39.360 --> 1:12:42.400 Republic reporting on a rally earlier this year in Wilmington, 1:12:42.400 --> 1:12:45.880 North Carolina. Today, I am announcing a new plan to 1:12:46.000 --> 1:12:49.280 end all sanctuary cities in North Carolina. And across our country, 1:12:49.320 --> 1:12:52.519 said Trump, no more sanctuary cities. As soon as I 1:12:52.560 --> 1:12:55.479 take office, we will immediately surge federal law enforcement to 1:12:55.520 --> 1:12:58.000 every city that is failing, which is a lot of them, 1:12:58.240 --> 1:13:00.400 to turn over criminal aliens. And we will hunt down 1:13:00.439 --> 1:13:03.400 and capture every single gang member, drug dealer, rapist, murderer, 1:13:03.439 --> 1:13:06.759 and migrant criminal that is being illegally harbored. The article 1:13:06.800 --> 1:13:09.880 goes on to note Trump has previously vowed to militarize 1:13:09.960 --> 1:13:12.960 US law enforcement to restore law and order to our cities, 1:13:13.000 --> 1:13:15.479 which he claimed to have become cesspools of bloodshed and 1:13:15.520 --> 1:13:19.000 crime under President Joe Biden. Trump has argued that additional 1:13:19.040 --> 1:13:23.120 federal funding and forces would help supplement supposedly defunded police departments, 1:13:23.400 --> 1:13:25.360 but that extra help would only go to cities that 1:13:25.439 --> 1:13:29.200 complied with ice. Now, this is scary stuff, and it 1:13:29.240 --> 1:13:32.479 would necessitate some sort of response if it were to happen. 1:13:32.880 --> 1:13:34.400 But I don't really know how to tell you to 1:13:34.520 --> 1:13:38.120 organize against it right now. There are so many unknowns 1:13:38.160 --> 1:13:41.160 that one would need to factor into any plans. I 1:13:41.160 --> 1:13:44.880 could theorize about underground railroads to help people avoid deportation 1:13:45.360 --> 1:13:48.240 or to avoid being raided for their past political activism, 1:13:48.520 --> 1:13:50.960 and I could base those theories on, for example, how 1:13:51.000 --> 1:13:54.120 activists in Nazi Germany helped hide people from the Gestapo. 1:13:54.720 --> 1:13:57.519 But those heroes of yesteryear existed in a world where 1:13:57.560 --> 1:14:01.160 the technological tools available to the enemy were primitive beyond 1:14:01.160 --> 1:14:05.280 compare to what exists today. Perhaps the most chilling article 1:14:05.320 --> 1:14:07.280 I read this year had nothing to do with ice 1:14:07.400 --> 1:14:09.760 or right wing paramilitaries and everything to do with the 1:14:09.840 --> 1:14:13.240 technology that has been standard among law enforcement for years. 1:14:13.840 --> 1:14:18.120 License plate recognition systems like Motorollas dr in use optical 1:14:18.240 --> 1:14:21.759 character recognition technology to identify the text of a vehicle's 1:14:21.800 --> 1:14:24.880 license plate and put it in a searchable database. The 1:14:24.920 --> 1:14:28.760 policing implications of this are obvious and not all negative, 1:14:29.000 --> 1:14:31.400 although it's far from clear if they actually work too. 1:14:31.800 --> 1:14:33.880 The idea is that if someone carries out a drive 1:14:33.920 --> 1:14:36.040 by shooting, or assaults a woman on the street, or 1:14:36.040 --> 1:14:39.040 is seen fleeing some other form of dangerous crime by 1:14:39.040 --> 1:14:41.280 someone who gets the car, make and model and maybe 1:14:41.320 --> 1:14:44.040 the first couple letters of the plate. Dn r's database 1:14:44.080 --> 1:14:47.439 of more than fifteen billion vehicle sidings, built from automatic 1:14:47.520 --> 1:14:50.479 recordings of license plate reading cameras on police cruisers and 1:14:50.520 --> 1:14:53.600 tow trucks and the like might well help identify and 1:14:53.680 --> 1:14:56.919 stop someone before they hunter kill again. Now their serious 1:14:56.960 --> 1:15:00.639 reason to question whether or not this system action works 1:15:00.680 --> 1:15:02.960 this way. I'm not claiming to take a stance on 1:15:02.960 --> 1:15:05.160 this one way or the other. I'm not an expert 1:15:05.200 --> 1:15:08.040 on this, but the issue here from a privacy standpoint, 1:15:08.040 --> 1:15:11.719 when we imagine what might happen in a future Trump 1:15:11.920 --> 1:15:15.600 dominated government, is that you can't train a system like 1:15:15.640 --> 1:15:18.960 this to only pay attention to license plates, nor is 1:15:19.000 --> 1:15:21.960 there any benefit to Motorola in doing so. In recent 1:15:22.000 --> 1:15:25.439 investigations conducted by a private detective with access to dn 1:15:25.520 --> 1:15:28.160 r's database for her work have shown that someone with 1:15:28.320 --> 1:15:31.160 access to this database can search based on more than 1:15:31.240 --> 1:15:34.800 just license plates. They can look up signs supporting political 1:15:34.840 --> 1:15:37.360 candidates and match them to front yards and thus to 1:15:37.439 --> 1:15:41.320 people's addresses. They can find individuals who were captured by 1:15:41.320 --> 1:15:43.719 these cameras, and there are again billions of these photos wearing, 1:15:43.760 --> 1:15:48.000 for example, planned parenthood shirts. This is not an idle fear. 1:15:48.120 --> 1:15:51.320 This is a weapon that could very easily be used 1:15:51.320 --> 1:15:54.280 by the enemy within months of you listening to this. 1:15:54.280 --> 1:15:56.600 This is also a weapon that in an event like 1:15:56.640 --> 1:15:58.959 the one I forecasted at the start of this episode 1:15:59.280 --> 1:16:03.200 could be used to crack down on activists and voters 1:16:03.240 --> 1:16:05.920 in counties that are loyal to Trump in some sort 1:16:05.960 --> 1:16:11.040 of national schism situation. Police officers already misused databases like 1:16:11.080 --> 1:16:14.439 this with comic regularity. In twenty twenty two, a different 1:16:14.439 --> 1:16:18.280 Wired investigation showed that hundreds of ICE employees and contractors 1:16:18.280 --> 1:16:22.080 had been caught abusing similar databases made via license plate 1:16:22.160 --> 1:16:26.400 recognition systems. Some had used them to stalk citizens. Stuff 1:16:26.439 --> 1:16:29.760 like this pairs forebodingly with threats made by emboldened pro 1:16:29.840 --> 1:16:33.639 Trump cops earlier this election season. I'm talking about something 1:16:33.680 --> 1:16:36.719 that happened in September when Ohio Sheriff of Portage County 1:16:36.800 --> 1:16:40.280 Bruce Szukowski posted a screenshot of a Fox News segment 1:16:40.360 --> 1:16:43.800 criticizing the current president over his immigration record and the 1:16:43.840 --> 1:16:47.920 impact of Haitian migrants on Springfield, Ohio, from an article 1:16:47.920 --> 1:16:51.519 in The ap by Michael Rubacam likening people in the 1:16:51.640 --> 1:16:55.000 US illegally to human locusts Zukowski wrote on a personal 1:16:55.080 --> 1:16:58.000 Facebook account and his campaign's account, when people ask me, 1:16:58.040 --> 1:17:00.960 what's going to happen if the flip flopping last Hyena wins, 1:17:01.000 --> 1:17:03.639 I say, write down all the addresses of the people 1:17:03.680 --> 1:17:07.320 who had their signs in their yards. That way, Zukowski continued, 1:17:07.320 --> 1:17:10.000 when migrants need places to live, we're already have the 1:17:10.040 --> 1:17:14.040 addresses of their new families who supported their arrival. Now, 1:17:14.240 --> 1:17:17.200 as the full context of that statement makes clear, Zukowski 1:17:17.320 --> 1:17:20.160 was not technically threatening Harris voters. But it's pretty much 1:17:20.160 --> 1:17:22.599 impossible for me to take that as anything but a threat, 1:17:22.800 --> 1:17:25.920 just one dressed up enough for plausible deniability and an 1:17:26.040 --> 1:17:29.000 environment where the future ability of Zukowski and those like 1:17:29.080 --> 1:17:32.720 him to punish Democrats is still unclear. And we're going 1:17:32.760 --> 1:17:47.320 to talk more about that. But first here's another ad break. Now, 1:17:47.479 --> 1:17:49.880 I don't mean to make it sound like that there's 1:17:49.880 --> 1:17:52.799 nothing that can be done to fight against technological tools 1:17:52.840 --> 1:17:55.760 in the arsenal of repression like this, but I have 1:17:55.800 --> 1:17:58.200 no doubt that if the Republicans do take total power, 1:17:58.280 --> 1:18:00.720 they will read any positive election for them as a 1:18:00.720 --> 1:18:03.080 mandate to punish the left and purge the people. Trump 1:18:03.200 --> 1:18:06.400 is already repeatedly called the enemy within, and I worry 1:18:06.439 --> 1:18:08.559 that in the event of any sort of national schism, 1:18:08.680 --> 1:18:11.240 either where there's an extended period of time where Trump 1:18:11.280 --> 1:18:13.679 is claiming to have been the winner, or if there's 1:18:13.720 --> 1:18:17.040 a situation where he just has himself inaugurated in Florida 1:18:17.080 --> 1:18:19.639 and you have a bunch of these counties and states 1:18:19.680 --> 1:18:22.280 around the country sign up for Trump, that the first 1:18:22.360 --> 1:18:24.680 thing we'll see law enforcement do in these areas is 1:18:24.720 --> 1:18:27.760 punished the enemy within, especially if they declare themselves on 1:18:27.800 --> 1:18:30.240 a war footing with the rest of the country. These 1:18:30.240 --> 1:18:34.000 are all things that are maybe not the likeliest possibility here, 1:18:34.040 --> 1:18:36.200 but they are something to keep in mind, and they 1:18:36.280 --> 1:18:39.320 are something that represents a real danger at this point. 1:18:39.360 --> 1:18:41.439 I don't think anyone who's paid attention to the kinds 1:18:41.439 --> 1:18:44.479 of thing the Republicans have been saying lately can deny that. 1:18:45.120 --> 1:18:48.080 Now it is important to remember that whatever plan these 1:18:48.120 --> 1:18:51.760 people try won't work as well as they hope. We've 1:18:51.760 --> 1:18:53.920 been watching them for years, and if there's one thing 1:18:53.960 --> 1:18:55.880 you know about all of the people around Trump, it's 1:18:55.880 --> 1:18:58.040 that they're fuck ups. That doesn't mean they can't win, 1:18:58.080 --> 1:19:00.880 it doesn't mean they're not dangerous. It just means that 1:19:00.920 --> 1:19:03.840 they're going to make mistakes. Now, those mistakes aren't going 1:19:03.880 --> 1:19:06.280 to be survivable for everybody that we care about, which 1:19:06.320 --> 1:19:09.439 is something that should be on your mind. Bruce and 1:19:09.520 --> 1:19:12.240 most of the Trump aligned police, local and federal still 1:19:12.280 --> 1:19:15.080 feel a need to couch their threats in deniable terms, though, 1:19:15.520 --> 1:19:17.759 but many on the far right have been less careful. 1:19:17.760 --> 1:19:20.320 And one thing we've seen is this election has lurched 1:19:20.680 --> 1:19:22.040 closer to its conclusion. 1:19:22.600 --> 1:19:23.360 Is a lot of. 1:19:23.280 --> 1:19:27.479 People, people like particularly Elon Musk, have absolutely taken their 1:19:27.520 --> 1:19:28.400 masks off. 1:19:28.439 --> 1:19:28.639 Now. 1:19:28.720 --> 1:19:30.160 I think this had a lot to do with the 1:19:30.160 --> 1:19:32.680 fact that Trump was looking more like the favorite a 1:19:32.720 --> 1:19:35.759 couple of weeks ago, and they felt like after years 1:19:35.800 --> 1:19:38.519 of having to do what Bruce did, having to cover 1:19:38.680 --> 1:19:42.360 up their outright eliminationist impulses, they no longer had to 1:19:42.439 --> 1:19:45.840 do that now. Obviously, some influential people on the far 1:19:45.920 --> 1:19:48.160 right have been masked off from much longer, and this 1:19:48.240 --> 1:19:50.479 is something that should concern you as well. One of 1:19:50.560 --> 1:19:53.320 the most sinister examples of this is Jack Pisobic, a 1:19:53.360 --> 1:19:57.840 former US Navy intelligence officer whose recent book Unhumans is 1:19:57.880 --> 1:20:01.160 framed as a secret history of communist allusions. From an 1:20:01.240 --> 1:20:04.519 article in Mother Jones quote they they being. Pisobic and 1:20:04.560 --> 1:20:06.760 his co author claim for as long as there have 1:20:06.800 --> 1:20:08.840 been beauty and truth, love and life, there have also 1:20:08.880 --> 1:20:11.400 been the ugly liars who hate and kill. And these 1:20:11.479 --> 1:20:16.920 people of anti civilization have always gone by different names communists, socialists, leftists, 1:20:16.960 --> 1:20:19.519 and progressives. The pair contend that these folks, be they 1:20:19.560 --> 1:20:22.679 the Bolsheviks of Russia or the BLM activists of this decade, 1:20:22.920 --> 1:20:26.600 are better called unhumans. It's a hard edged message. The 1:20:26.600 --> 1:20:29.519 foes of conservatism are not merely misguided souls pushing the 1:20:29.560 --> 1:20:33.200 wrong policies, but people who seek to annihilate civilization. They 1:20:33.280 --> 1:20:36.280 rob and kill. Pisobic and Lyssek, his co author, maintain 1:20:36.600 --> 1:20:38.400 they don't believe what they say. They don't care about 1:20:38.439 --> 1:20:40.760 winning debates. They don't even want a quality. They just 1:20:40.800 --> 1:20:43.839 want an excuse to destroy everything. They want an excuse 1:20:43.920 --> 1:20:47.599 to destroy you. Now, Jack has been a laughable character 1:20:47.640 --> 1:20:50.320 for much of his career, but his outright eliminationist rhetoric 1:20:50.360 --> 1:20:52.920 has had an audience in the Howls of Power. Jd 1:20:53.040 --> 1:20:55.640 Vance himself provided a blurb for the book, claiming it 1:20:55.720 --> 1:20:58.880 shows us what to do to fight back. Steve Bannon 1:20:58.920 --> 1:21:02.519 meanwhile wrote the forward. Now, I started this episode with 1:21:02.520 --> 1:21:05.519 a fictional vignette imagining what might happen if Trump chooses 1:21:05.560 --> 1:21:08.120 to contest the election without right force, and he might. 1:21:08.680 --> 1:21:10.519 The good news is I think that such an effort 1:21:10.560 --> 1:21:13.160 would be doomed to fail if he sticks to the courts. 1:21:13.200 --> 1:21:15.800 Trying to refuse certifications and kick the election to the 1:21:15.880 --> 1:21:18.880 House is a better chance at succeeding, and it is 1:21:18.920 --> 1:21:21.960 possible that isolated thefts of ballots and arrests of poll 1:21:21.960 --> 1:21:25.120 workers could play into a broader effort like this, but 1:21:25.240 --> 1:21:28.000 doing so is a big risk. My gut tells me 1:21:28.040 --> 1:21:31.400 that moving so openly resorting to violence first creates a 1:21:31.439 --> 1:21:34.519 situation in which the Biden administration and the incoming Harris 1:21:34.560 --> 1:21:37.439 administration would have to respond with force. There would have 1:21:37.520 --> 1:21:40.479 to be consequences, and given that they currently control the 1:21:40.560 --> 1:21:43.080 arsenal of state power, I think they would win even 1:21:43.080 --> 1:21:45.400 in the event that you have all of these sheriffs 1:21:45.439 --> 1:21:48.599 break for Trump in some sort of insurgent situation develop. 1:21:49.360 --> 1:21:52.800 If that were to happen, having backed this insurgency would 1:21:52.800 --> 1:21:55.120 put Trump in real jeopardy, and it would put a 1:21:55.120 --> 1:21:57.360 lot of his backers in jeopardy as well. It might 1:21:57.360 --> 1:22:01.719 even force consequences for provocateurs like Sobic and even Elon Musk. 1:22:02.040 --> 1:22:04.920 Backing an outright violent coup is almost the only thing 1:22:04.960 --> 1:22:08.599 I can imagine putting Musk behind bars. There are pieces 1:22:08.680 --> 1:22:10.720 of this logic train that I find comforting, but there 1:22:10.720 --> 1:22:13.879 are also pieces that aren't. Many of us, me included, 1:22:14.000 --> 1:22:16.840 made the mistake of assuming that after January sixth, twenty 1:22:16.840 --> 1:22:20.840 twenty one, Trumpism might finally be a spent force. He'd 1:22:20.880 --> 1:22:23.960 gambled too much and he'd lost too big. But despite 1:22:23.960 --> 1:22:27.120 the existential threat, he presented himself as being The Democratic 1:22:27.160 --> 1:22:30.559 Party and the Merrick Garland Justice Department largely chose mercy 1:22:30.600 --> 1:22:34.080 for the main players. I suspect anything short of armed 1:22:34.120 --> 1:22:36.920 insurrection will see a similar reaction from them this year. 1:22:37.240 --> 1:22:39.760 I don't believe Musk's fears that the Democrats will throw 1:22:39.800 --> 1:22:42.439 him in prison if Harris Winds are real, or that 1:22:42.520 --> 1:22:45.960 instead as his own predictive justification for the violence he'd 1:22:46.000 --> 1:22:50.000 like to support against his political enemies. That desire won't 1:22:50.000 --> 1:22:53.080 go away just because Trump rides off into the sunset 1:22:53.280 --> 1:22:56.080 and the Republican Party has to go searching for another feurer. 1:22:56.600 --> 1:22:59.040 If we defer their dream, it will simply sit under 1:22:59.040 --> 1:23:02.479 the floorboards and waiting for the next opportunity, and that 1:23:02.520 --> 1:23:06.439 won't take long. Kamala will inherit a broken system and 1:23:06.479 --> 1:23:09.240 a world where climate change and conflict are on the rise. 1:23:09.760 --> 1:23:12.719 Low information voters less literate by the day, will continue 1:23:12.760 --> 1:23:15.599 to swing back and forth. The feral beast we've heard 1:23:15.600 --> 1:23:18.799 growling all year long will surge forward, all the hungrier 1:23:18.880 --> 1:23:21.800 for being made to wait. If you've kept up with 1:23:21.840 --> 1:23:24.600 our election coverage this year, you've probably noticed that we 1:23:24.680 --> 1:23:27.479 haven't endorsed any candidates, and I haven't wasted any time 1:23:27.520 --> 1:23:30.439 advising our listeners to vote. I happen to be someone 1:23:30.439 --> 1:23:33.559 who does think a Harris win represents substantially less harm 1:23:33.600 --> 1:23:36.000 than a Trump win to a lot of people. But 1:23:36.080 --> 1:23:38.040 I don't think that the folks who listen to our 1:23:38.080 --> 1:23:41.320 podcast are waiting for me to make that decision for them. 1:23:41.520 --> 1:23:44.000 I don't agree with the anti electoralist side of things 1:23:44.000 --> 1:23:46.679 on every matter, but one place where I do agree 1:23:46.680 --> 1:23:49.960 with them is that a Harris win won't fix what's broken. 1:23:50.400 --> 1:23:53.120 It represents the historic equivalent of jinking out of the 1:23:53.120 --> 1:23:56.559 way and a dog fight. Necessary maybe, but not something 1:23:56.560 --> 1:24:02.400 that guarantees future security. Hey everybody, Robert here, I've changed locations, 1:24:02.400 --> 1:24:04.360 so sorry if it sounds a little bit different. I'm 1:24:04.400 --> 1:24:08.280 currently in a cabin waiting out the election trying not 1:24:08.360 --> 1:24:10.559 to think too much about it. But I wrote a 1:24:10.600 --> 1:24:12.920 new ending to this because I just thought that what 1:24:13.000 --> 1:24:17.320 I had there was incomplete. Now, when it comes to 1:24:17.400 --> 1:24:20.679 what does work in the long run to beat these people, 1:24:21.240 --> 1:24:25.559 my mind is drawn back constantly to perhaps an odd place. 1:24:26.000 --> 1:24:29.799 A twenty eleven article in the scientific journal Nature titled 1:24:29.840 --> 1:24:31.880 the Evolution of over Confidence. 1:24:32.640 --> 1:24:32.800 Now. 1:24:32.800 --> 1:24:34.960 The gist is that this was an attempt by two 1:24:35.000 --> 1:24:39.519 scientists to solve the evolutionary mystery of the Dunning Krueger effect. 1:24:40.000 --> 1:24:42.680 It seems to be extraordinarily common for people who know 1:24:42.920 --> 1:24:46.680 very little about a subject to overestimate their competence in it. 1:24:47.320 --> 1:24:50.200 This is probably why so many Americans think they could 1:24:50.240 --> 1:24:53.719 win a fistfight with a bear. Such a phenomenon seems 1:24:53.840 --> 1:24:58.599 profoundly maladaptive. How could overestimating our abilities provide any kind 1:24:58.640 --> 1:25:02.720 of benefit to evolutionary fitness? The explanation devised in this 1:25:02.800 --> 1:25:06.960 paper is that overconfidence is beneficial more often than not, because, 1:25:06.960 --> 1:25:10.840 in a hypothetical situation where two organisms are competing for 1:25:10.920 --> 1:25:13.920 a resource and evenly matched in the event of a fight, 1:25:14.439 --> 1:25:17.559 the organism that is more confident is likelier to reach 1:25:17.640 --> 1:25:20.920 for that resource if they do. One of three things 1:25:20.920 --> 1:25:24.080 can happen. They fight and win, they fight and lose, 1:25:24.880 --> 1:25:28.799 or the other organism backs away insecure in its chances 1:25:28.880 --> 1:25:32.120 of victory and they get that resource without even fighting 1:25:32.160 --> 1:25:36.720 for it. Such a scenario favors the overconfident individual so 1:25:36.840 --> 1:25:39.040 much so that it might explain why many of us 1:25:39.080 --> 1:25:41.960 seem to have a build in tendency to irrationally judge 1:25:42.000 --> 1:25:43.280 our own capabilities. 1:25:43.960 --> 1:25:44.280 Now. 1:25:44.439 --> 1:25:47.320 I first became aware of this research almost a decade 1:25:47.360 --> 1:25:50.200 ago when I started work on my first published book, 1:25:50.360 --> 1:25:53.400 A Brief History of Vice. At the time, I found 1:25:53.439 --> 1:25:56.519 it interesting because it posited a likely adaptive basis for 1:25:56.600 --> 1:25:59.120 a kind of bad behavior, and that's what my whole 1:25:59.120 --> 1:26:01.800 book was about. In the years since, though, I've come 1:26:01.840 --> 1:26:05.200 to see it as the fundamental underlying explanation for how 1:26:05.280 --> 1:26:09.920 fascists win. It's well established that fascist regimes and individuals 1:26:09.960 --> 1:26:12.960 themselves are bad at threat modeling. We can bring up 1:26:13.000 --> 1:26:16.200 examples as varied as the invasion of the Soviet Union, 1:26:16.280 --> 1:26:18.519 or that proud boy who got shot in Portland after 1:26:18.560 --> 1:26:22.519 picking the wrong fight, and of course January sixth. There 1:26:22.560 --> 1:26:25.320 are many examples to choose from, but as often as 1:26:25.360 --> 1:26:28.599 they fail, the success of these movements is also based 1:26:28.840 --> 1:26:32.160 entirely on their willingness to dare and the fact that 1:26:32.200 --> 1:26:35.519 liberals in particular are often too frightened and cautious to 1:26:35.560 --> 1:26:39.080 confront them. We are still dealing with Donald Trump and 1:26:39.120 --> 1:26:41.680 his foot soldiers in twenty twenty four because no one 1:26:41.800 --> 1:26:44.080 quite had the guts to confront him to the degree 1:26:44.120 --> 1:26:47.360 he needed to be confronted. Doing so would have meant 1:26:47.400 --> 1:26:51.640 taking unprecedented legal steps and risking right wing backlash that 1:26:51.880 --> 1:26:55.280 likely would have included acts of terrorism. In the end, 1:26:55.600 --> 1:26:58.320 most people with any say in the matter chose to 1:26:58.360 --> 1:27:02.679 either back away or pull their punches until after the election. 1:27:03.600 --> 1:27:06.360 On other episodes of this show, our correspondent Mia and 1:27:06.439 --> 1:27:09.200 I have talked about the actual path destroying the far 1:27:09.320 --> 1:27:13.160 rights organizational and electoral base. We are up against a 1:27:13.200 --> 1:27:17.719 coalition a fused car dealers, supplement salesman, multi level marketing goals, 1:27:18.000 --> 1:27:21.559 sheriffs taking blatantly unconstitutional stances on their own power, and 1:27:21.680 --> 1:27:25.600 churches that, by any decent measure lost their justification for 1:27:25.680 --> 1:27:29.439 tax exempt status years ago. These are all forces that 1:27:29.479 --> 1:27:31.920 can be targeted and neutered through the courts in the 1:27:32.040 --> 1:27:36.400 legislative system with consistent activism and pressure applied to elected 1:27:36.479 --> 1:27:40.320 leaders sitting here. I think that the odds the Democrats 1:27:40.360 --> 1:27:44.200 embrace such as strategy are exceptionally low, but we do 1:27:44.320 --> 1:27:47.559 have to try to make them because when you're sitting 1:27:47.600 --> 1:27:50.840 across from a monster, one that's fattened on over confidence, 1:27:51.040 --> 1:27:53.880 and you see him start to reach again, the only 1:27:53.960 --> 1:27:57.439 same response is to swallow your fear and take a swing. 1:28:17.439 --> 1:28:20.240 Welcome to it could happen here. On today's episode, we 1:28:20.320 --> 1:28:24.519 have Robert Evans, Harrison Davis Mio Wong, James Stout, Margaret Kildoy, 1:28:24.920 --> 1:28:28.800 and I'm Sophie Lichterman. This is the post election episode. 1:28:29.200 --> 1:28:34.960 Robert, Yeah, it happened here, is happening has continued to 1:28:35.040 --> 1:28:35.599 happen here. 1:28:36.080 --> 1:28:36.559 Yeah. 1:28:36.680 --> 1:28:37.080 Yeah. 1:28:37.120 --> 1:28:40.080 This has been a podcast from the beginning about things 1:28:40.120 --> 1:28:43.439 falling apart, which is a great business to be in, 1:28:43.600 --> 1:28:46.880 I guess because they keep doing that. I want to 1:28:46.960 --> 1:28:50.519 start by kind of talking about yesterday's episode, the one 1:28:50.560 --> 1:28:52.519 that I dropped before the election because I thought a 1:28:52.520 --> 1:28:55.639 lot about like what to put out on the day 1:28:55.840 --> 1:28:59.719 of the election, and I kind of made the call, 1:29:00.040 --> 1:29:03.599 which I don't know regrets the wrong word. I made 1:29:03.600 --> 1:29:05.880 the call yesterday that like, okay, we've got this new 1:29:05.920 --> 1:29:09.120 poll from Selzer, people are starting to feel like, you know, 1:29:09.160 --> 1:29:11.679 some of this late breaking news is good for Harris. 1:29:11.720 --> 1:29:14.479 Some of the posters are hurting back in that direction. 1:29:15.040 --> 1:29:17.960 I probably should do something to kind of like pump 1:29:18.040 --> 1:29:21.639 the breaks on enthusiasm and remind people that even if 1:29:21.640 --> 1:29:23.880 she wins, there's still a lot of dangers out there, right, 1:29:23.920 --> 1:29:25.799 because that's what I saw as like the big threat 1:29:25.800 --> 1:29:28.840 model is Harris is likely to win, and then people 1:29:28.880 --> 1:29:31.840 are going to forget about these constitutional sheriffs and all 1:29:31.840 --> 1:29:34.160 these different kind of like right wing gules that will 1:29:34.160 --> 1:29:37.479 still be a problem if we don't take care of them, right, 1:29:37.520 --> 1:29:39.920 if we don't do anything to actually like hamper their 1:29:39.960 --> 1:29:43.840 ability to exercise power. So I wrote that episode with 1:29:43.880 --> 1:29:47.280 that in mind, and it turns out I was being 1:29:47.320 --> 1:29:50.480 overly optimistic, and I think it was being overly optimistic 1:29:50.520 --> 1:29:53.720 in part. You know, I tend towards pessimism, which is 1:29:53.720 --> 1:29:56.559 why this show exists in the first place. You Know, 1:29:56.720 --> 1:29:59.000 one of the things that's happened is we've gotten bigger 1:29:59.040 --> 1:30:01.920 and more people have listened, and is whenever like shit 1:30:02.000 --> 1:30:04.760 happens in the world, we get bombarded on the subreddit, 1:30:04.800 --> 1:30:07.800 and just like in emails to myself with people saying 1:30:07.880 --> 1:30:11.120 versions of like I don't know what to do, using 1:30:11.479 --> 1:30:15.400 language that's like very worrying sometimes about how hopeless they feel. 1:30:15.800 --> 1:30:18.320 And so I've kind of felt a growing responsibility to 1:30:18.439 --> 1:30:22.080 like spread calm and hope. And I think that merged 1:30:22.240 --> 1:30:25.200 to a degree with the you know, after my dad died, 1:30:25.240 --> 1:30:28.759 this desire to like not just be sad and de doomer, 1:30:29.200 --> 1:30:31.360 and I think it led me to have I guess, 1:30:31.560 --> 1:30:35.240 more of an optimistic like I forced myself into an 1:30:35.320 --> 1:30:38.760 unreasonably optimistic frame of mind just because I thought that 1:30:38.880 --> 1:30:42.160 was the responsible thing to do. And I guess I'm 1:30:42.240 --> 1:30:45.400 kind of like evaluating that now, like what should I 1:30:45.439 --> 1:30:47.559 have done differently, you know, if I'd been in a 1:30:47.600 --> 1:30:50.719 more logical state of mind. And I guess the answer 1:30:50.760 --> 1:30:53.200 is I don't know how to be in a more 1:30:53.280 --> 1:30:56.400 logical state of mind. Like the problem is there's so much, 1:30:56.880 --> 1:30:59.520 you know, you've got this hyper object of a political 1:30:59.560 --> 1:31:02.759 real life happening in our country in this very dark 1:31:02.800 --> 1:31:05.120 direction you're also trying to deal with and I'm sure 1:31:05.120 --> 1:31:07.920 everyone listening is dealing with versions of this on their own. 1:31:08.439 --> 1:31:11.120 You know, people you care about getting sick and dying 1:31:11.200 --> 1:31:14.240 and you know, losing jobs or having to start new 1:31:14.280 --> 1:31:17.240 ones and embarking, you know, starting to become a parent 1:31:17.320 --> 1:31:20.080 or whatever. Like everybody's got all these massive things in 1:31:20.120 --> 1:31:23.640 their own lives, and like trying to keep a completely 1:31:23.960 --> 1:31:29.759 rational perspective on the political happenings in this country while 1:31:30.080 --> 1:31:33.200 remaining unaffected from like the way in which your own 1:31:33.280 --> 1:31:36.840 life is going to color your optimism and biases is 1:31:37.720 --> 1:31:41.400 probably a hopeless cause to some extent, which I guess 1:31:41.439 --> 1:31:44.000 is part of why we're here to try and as 1:31:44.000 --> 1:31:50.360 a collective offer people our most reasonable, sort of averaged 1:31:50.439 --> 1:31:52.920 opinion about what's going to happen. So I guess that's 1:31:52.920 --> 1:31:55.120 what we're going to try to do here. That's what 1:31:55.120 --> 1:31:56.160 I've got to start with. 1:31:56.960 --> 1:32:00.880 I mean, hope is illogical, but it is necessary, and 1:32:01.120 --> 1:32:04.519 I think that's really where we have to start. I'm 1:32:04.560 --> 1:32:08.759 going to toss over to Margaret real quick about hope. 1:32:09.040 --> 1:32:11.920 Yeah, yeah, yeah, Margaret, fix this for you. 1:32:12.160 --> 1:32:15.160 Well, just to say, just to say, I woke up 1:32:15.200 --> 1:32:17.120 today with some hope, and I think a lot of 1:32:17.120 --> 1:32:19.720 that is from my friendship with Margaret, and I don't 1:32:19.720 --> 1:32:21.760 think there's a better person to talk about that than her. 1:32:21.960 --> 1:32:24.240 Yeah, Margaret, I appreciate that. 1:32:24.280 --> 1:32:25.960 I often make the joke about the fact that I 1:32:26.080 --> 1:32:28.160 named myself killed Joy in my twenties and then became 1:32:28.160 --> 1:32:32.400 a professional optimist. But that and I think that actually 1:32:32.439 --> 1:32:33.880 it could happen here, and I think folks here do 1:32:33.920 --> 1:32:38.680 it really well. Sometimes determination is almost sometimes the right 1:32:38.720 --> 1:32:41.960 word instead of hope, right because or like optimism is 1:32:42.000 --> 1:32:43.880 always the right word because you're like, well, bad things 1:32:43.960 --> 1:32:46.120 are happening, and they're going to happen, and they're going 1:32:46.160 --> 1:32:48.479 to keep happening, right, And so sometimes we look at 1:32:48.520 --> 1:32:51.559 like like climate change, for example, which is the broader problem. 1:32:51.840 --> 1:32:53.439 You know, you're like, well, no matter what we do, 1:32:53.520 --> 1:32:56.240 it's going to get worse. And so the immediate electoral 1:32:56.280 --> 1:32:58.519 problem in front of us, like, no matter what happens, 1:32:58.560 --> 1:33:00.960 it's going to get worse before it gets better. But 1:33:01.040 --> 1:33:06.800 we need to stay aware of that and stop pretending 1:33:06.880 --> 1:33:09.800 like the bad things aren't coming. Will then still looking 1:33:09.800 --> 1:33:12.160 at saying like, well what can we do? And for me, 1:33:12.600 --> 1:33:14.200 the thing that I focus on I have a therapist 1:33:14.240 --> 1:33:18.040 friend who talks about how agency is the opposite of trauma, 1:33:18.200 --> 1:33:20.320 you know, and that the more that we act with 1:33:20.439 --> 1:33:23.720 agency while bad things are happening the less that they 1:33:24.040 --> 1:33:27.680 destroy us emotionally, and so I think that focusing on 1:33:28.200 --> 1:33:32.160 what can we do is just incredibly useful and necessary. 1:33:32.360 --> 1:33:34.400 And also the fact that. 1:33:34.320 --> 1:33:36.800 Things are in turmoil right now and that means lots 1:33:36.840 --> 1:33:38.599 of bad things are happening and the old status quo 1:33:38.720 --> 1:33:41.160 is gone. We saw that with the defeat of the Democrats. 1:33:41.200 --> 1:33:42.800 Their whole thing is that they doubled down on the 1:33:42.840 --> 1:33:45.679 old status quo, and people don't want that. People want 1:33:45.880 --> 1:33:49.679 something different, and Trump offers something different, a very horrible 1:33:49.840 --> 1:33:53.559 nightmare thing that's different, and the Democrats did not offer 1:33:53.640 --> 1:33:56.559 something different. And so I actually think, in a weird way, 1:33:56.640 --> 1:33:59.480 we are in a good position to on a grassroots 1:33:59.600 --> 1:34:04.360 level build something different and say that people want something different. 1:34:04.360 --> 1:34:08.920 And I think that by working towards something different and better, well, 1:34:08.920 --> 1:34:12.160 it's the best way to keep our own spirits up. 1:34:12.280 --> 1:34:12.439 You know. 1:34:13.680 --> 1:34:18.840 Yeah, thanks mac buy, I absolutely agree, James. What's your 1:34:18.840 --> 1:34:19.960 perspective here. 1:34:20.240 --> 1:34:23.360 Yeah, Like it goes without saying that like Trump's proposed 1:34:23.400 --> 1:34:27.439 border policies are horrific, and his propos migration policies are horrific. 1:34:27.640 --> 1:34:28.880 Houses were also bad. 1:34:29.880 --> 1:34:32.280 I think like that that doesn't mean that that trumps 1:34:32.280 --> 1:34:35.400 are acceptable or the same they're not. But also, like 1:34:35.960 --> 1:34:38.360 I think, having spent as much time as I have 1:34:38.439 --> 1:34:40.479 with refugees, having spent as much time as I have 1:34:40.680 --> 1:34:43.479 with people who have gone through things that are horrific 1:34:43.560 --> 1:34:48.479 and like state hostility, state violent, civil war, et cetera, Like. 1:34:48.520 --> 1:34:49.840 I have a lot of hope that. 1:34:49.760 --> 1:34:54.800 Like, like Margaret said, right, there's this quote from Di Riti. 1:34:54.880 --> 1:34:58.400 It probably isn't real about how like we're not afraid 1:34:58.439 --> 1:35:00.519 of ruins, and we've lived in ruins our lives, and 1:35:00.560 --> 1:35:03.599 we'll build our future in the ruins of the old world. 1:35:03.600 --> 1:35:07.759 But like, when I think about the next four years, 1:35:08.040 --> 1:35:10.760 like the state will be absent or hostile right now, 1:35:10.760 --> 1:35:13.720 absent at best and hostile at worst. It's been that 1:35:13.760 --> 1:35:16.599 way at the border for a very long time. Yeah, 1:35:16.640 --> 1:35:19.080 And we've built our little community and our little world. 1:35:19.160 --> 1:35:23.679 And like when I am sad, when I'm despairing, when 1:35:23.680 --> 1:35:26.680 I'm scared, I think about the things that we did 1:35:26.760 --> 1:35:30.160 in the last year, Right, we fed tens of thousands 1:35:30.240 --> 1:35:34.680 of people by ourselves, and in doing that, we demonstrated 1:35:34.680 --> 1:35:36.880 how powerful we are in the absence of the state, 1:35:37.640 --> 1:35:40.639 because the state wasn't there, or the state was actively hostile. 1:35:40.720 --> 1:35:43.400 We were able to step in and from nothing, we 1:35:43.400 --> 1:35:45.679 were able to build something that took care of people 1:35:45.720 --> 1:35:47.559 who needed to be taken care of, and that like 1:35:47.600 --> 1:35:50.559 we're not special or unique, you know, we didn't have 1:35:50.640 --> 1:35:53.760 like some incredible structure here before. People just showed up 1:35:53.800 --> 1:35:57.840 to help people, and like more people will need to 1:35:57.880 --> 1:36:00.880 do that now, and that mean that there are more 1:36:00.920 --> 1:36:03.960 people in difficult places who need help, right, But that 1:36:04.040 --> 1:36:06.120 doesn't mean that you can't do it. If we can 1:36:06.160 --> 1:36:11.040 do it, you can do it. And having done it 1:36:11.080 --> 1:36:15.799 has made me less. I just I'm not as scared 1:36:15.840 --> 1:36:17.240 as I would be if I felt like I was 1:36:17.240 --> 1:36:19.400 on my own, or if I felt like that we 1:36:19.560 --> 1:36:22.640 can't deal with this, because we can, and I know 1:36:22.680 --> 1:36:26.280 that because we have and I want Obviously that's something 1:36:26.320 --> 1:36:27.160 we're going to focus on. 1:36:27.240 --> 1:36:30.839 Right we have between now and the middle of January. 1:36:31.080 --> 1:36:32.880 I have no idea how many weeks or days that is, 1:36:32.920 --> 1:36:36.479 but it's a lot of time to organize, and it's 1:36:36.520 --> 1:36:39.240 a lot of time to put aside some of the 1:36:39.240 --> 1:36:41.720 differences we might have, some of the petty disagreements we 1:36:41.800 --> 1:36:43.719 might have, some of the shit that people have said 1:36:43.720 --> 1:36:47.520 on Twitter dot com and like get together and organize 1:36:47.600 --> 1:36:51.320 and build a way of taking care of each other 1:36:51.360 --> 1:36:54.679 that doesn't rely on the state, because that's always been 1:36:54.680 --> 1:36:57.320 what we needed and we need it now even more so. 1:36:58.160 --> 1:37:03.519 Yeah, speaking of of what we need, now here's some ads. 1:37:03.840 --> 1:37:05.679 Oh, Robert total tone? 1:37:07.160 --> 1:37:09.320 What else was? 1:37:10.320 --> 1:37:11.320 Just can't stop him? 1:37:11.400 --> 1:37:13.479 That was just physics. There was no other way for 1:37:13.520 --> 1:37:15.479 that to go. An object in motion. 1:37:15.800 --> 1:37:19.360 Yeah, yeah, that was like the oceans forming after the 1:37:19.400 --> 1:37:22.240 moon hit the Earth. Well, whatever happened to make oceans? 1:37:22.240 --> 1:37:24.080 I don't know. I don't know how oceans came about. 1:37:24.240 --> 1:37:29.000 Even they call him Robert tectonic plate effants. 1:37:38.720 --> 1:37:41.519 All right, welcome back to it could happen here where 1:37:41.520 --> 1:37:44.799 it is happening here, And Robert still can't help himself 1:37:44.840 --> 1:37:48.160 to make strange ad transitions. Garrison, what do you got 1:37:48.160 --> 1:37:48.519 for us? 1:37:49.200 --> 1:37:50.080 Yeah? I don't know. 1:37:50.160 --> 1:37:55.280 I I feel like I am not an optimist, and 1:37:55.320 --> 1:37:56.800 I also put a lot of work into not being 1:37:56.840 --> 1:38:01.200 a doomer. I try to be pretty realistic about a 1:38:01.200 --> 1:38:04.200 whole bunch of my like thoughts and analysis on this 1:38:04.280 --> 1:38:09.160 sort of thing, and I tend towards survival as kind 1:38:09.200 --> 1:38:12.360 of when I'm my main priorities, And I'd like to 1:38:12.360 --> 1:38:13.760 talk a little bit about kind of some of what 1:38:13.800 --> 1:38:17.160 we actually saw on election night and some maybe some 1:38:17.160 --> 1:38:22.160 small like misconceptions going around, mainly this kind of idea 1:38:22.800 --> 1:38:26.120 that the country has like wildly swung to the right, 1:38:26.240 --> 1:38:29.839 like people have like overwhelmingly, like more so than ever before, 1:38:30.320 --> 1:38:33.639 have have voted for like far right figures, have voted 1:38:33.680 --> 1:38:37.240 for far right like bills, basically wanting this this complete 1:38:37.240 --> 1:38:40.320 like nationalistic takeover. If you look at you know, their presidency, 1:38:40.400 --> 1:38:44.639 the Supreme Court, the House, the Senate, and I mean 1:38:44.760 --> 1:38:48.280 the final count is still coming in. We are recording 1:38:48.360 --> 1:38:51.559 this Wednesday afternoon. It's noon on the West coast right now, 1:38:51.920 --> 1:38:55.000 and Trump has almost the same number of votes as 1:38:55.000 --> 1:38:56.680 he gotten twenty twenty. I think it's a little bit 1:38:56.760 --> 1:39:00.360 under at this point. Now there is some demographic just 1:39:00.400 --> 1:39:03.360 certain groups may have leaned more towards or against Trump 1:39:03.640 --> 1:39:07.360 than in past elections, but the final like averaged popular 1:39:07.439 --> 1:39:10.439 vote number is at this point pretty much the same. 1:39:10.960 --> 1:39:11.160 Now. 1:39:11.240 --> 1:39:14.519 Kind of why this has happened, why he's still kind 1:39:14.520 --> 1:39:17.160 of sweeping all of these swing states is we've kind 1:39:17.160 --> 1:39:19.799 of had a collapse of trust in the Democratic Party, 1:39:20.200 --> 1:39:22.679 and you could attribute this to a lot of things. 1:39:23.040 --> 1:39:25.280 I don't think it's a single thing. It is obviously 1:39:25.320 --> 1:39:28.040 a confluence of events. I think one of one of 1:39:28.080 --> 1:39:30.320 the big things is like nine percent inflation is kind 1:39:30.320 --> 1:39:32.920 of hard to beat if people, to Margaret's point earlier, 1:39:33.080 --> 1:39:37.040 they're looking for something different, and Harris meaningfully was not 1:39:37.080 --> 1:39:41.439 offering anything like substantially different. Was She's the VP, right, 1:39:41.439 --> 1:39:43.880 Like it's she has that legacy. I don't think Biden 1:39:43.920 --> 1:39:46.439 could have done much more to alter the inflation, but 1:39:46.560 --> 1:39:50.040 like that that doesn't matter. People people feel this and 1:39:50.080 --> 1:39:52.519 that's and that's very strong, and there's other reasons why 1:39:52.560 --> 1:39:55.840 people have kind of lost faith in the Democratic Party 1:39:55.920 --> 1:39:58.679 or aren't as willing to come out in as high 1:39:58.760 --> 1:40:02.799 numbers as we saw back in twenty twenty. And crucially, 1:40:02.880 --> 1:40:04.680 but back in twenty twenty, in a lot of the 1:40:04.680 --> 1:40:07.200 swing states, the vote was very close. Although the popular 1:40:07.280 --> 1:40:09.519 vote swung pretty heavily towards Biden in a lot of 1:40:09.520 --> 1:40:11.680 the crucial swing states, in some of the states he 1:40:11.720 --> 1:40:14.120 was only like twenty thousand votes ahead, Like it was 1:40:15.160 --> 1:40:16.719 a pretty tight race in some of those states. 1:40:16.960 --> 1:40:17.560 Yeah. 1:40:17.840 --> 1:40:19.960 Now, the other thing I'm kind of seeing, which kind 1:40:19.960 --> 1:40:22.760 of reflects this idea that like the country hasn't wildly 1:40:22.960 --> 1:40:26.520 like the average people haven't wildly become a more fascist. 1:40:26.960 --> 1:40:30.400 It's that even in states that have elected Trump, they 1:40:30.439 --> 1:40:34.160 have also passed like a decent number of progressive initiatives, 1:40:34.200 --> 1:40:38.360 including abortion rights. Voters in Arizona and Missouri approved ballid 1:40:38.360 --> 1:40:43.240 initiatives that will serve to protect abortion rights until further 1:40:43.360 --> 1:40:47.760 laws are in the books. And in Maryland, in Montana, Nevada, 1:40:47.800 --> 1:40:51.519 and New York where abortion is legal, and Colorado, where 1:40:51.520 --> 1:40:55.840 there's no laws restricting abortion, they all passed measures that 1:40:56.040 --> 1:40:59.800 enshrine those rights into law. Now, Florida unfortunately was not 1:41:00.080 --> 1:41:03.320 to do this due to the super majority rules. Even 1:41:03.320 --> 1:41:05.919 though majority of people did vote for this in Florida, 1:41:06.360 --> 1:41:09.000 they did not reach the sixty percent threshold, so that 1:41:09.040 --> 1:41:10.480 did not pass in Florida. 1:41:10.200 --> 1:41:13.600 But fifty seven percent very close close, and it was 1:41:13.640 --> 1:41:14.719 an outright majority. 1:41:14.800 --> 1:41:17.120 Yeah, So people are willing to vote for these types 1:41:17.160 --> 1:41:19.760 of things, even if they're unwilling to vote for a 1:41:19.800 --> 1:41:22.160 Democrat at the top of the ticket, and like, this 1:41:22.200 --> 1:41:24.519 is something that is worth considering when trying to figure 1:41:24.560 --> 1:41:27.920 out what exactly happened here and consider why people have 1:41:28.000 --> 1:41:30.600 kind of lost faith in the Democratic Party as a 1:41:30.680 --> 1:41:34.280 reliable institution to improve their lives or represent the things 1:41:34.280 --> 1:41:36.960 that they believe in, the Gaza issue being kind of 1:41:36.960 --> 1:41:40.439 the prime example of this in the past year. One 1:41:40.479 --> 1:41:42.960 other thing I was thinking about this morning when trying 1:41:42.960 --> 1:41:45.880 to kind of look forward and imagine what the next 1:41:45.920 --> 1:41:49.519 four years would look like, specifically with the concern of 1:41:49.960 --> 1:41:53.559 figures like Elon Musk and RFK Junior being put into 1:41:54.000 --> 1:41:57.800 pretty important positions of government. Right the idea that RFK 1:41:57.920 --> 1:41:59.519 Junior is going to be in charge of the CDC 1:41:59.720 --> 1:42:02.800 and Herman public health policies for the country is a 1:42:02.920 --> 1:42:06.720 very worrying prospect. Having Elon Musk in a senior advisory 1:42:06.800 --> 1:42:11.839 role in some kind of governmental department of efficiency doesn't 1:42:11.880 --> 1:42:15.400 sound great. But as I was having my coffee next 1:42:15.439 --> 1:42:17.679 to a beautiful river in the mountains of North Georgia 1:42:17.720 --> 1:42:21.519 this morning, I was thinking about Steve Bannon because my 1:42:21.600 --> 1:42:25.200 brain is just fucked up like that, but specifically how 1:42:25.240 --> 1:42:28.240 Trump used Steve Bannon to get elected back in twenty sixteen, 1:42:28.760 --> 1:42:32.160 even though Bannon's actual tenure at the White House was 1:42:32.240 --> 1:42:36.600 quite short lived for whatever reasons, like personality clashes with 1:42:36.640 --> 1:42:40.040 Trump happen all the time and he loses friends and 1:42:40.080 --> 1:42:43.519 advisors at a pretty frequent rate. And I think because 1:42:43.600 --> 1:42:47.040 Trump is just like petty and you know, ablest and 1:42:47.360 --> 1:42:50.800 a bad guy, he might just find RFK Junior and 1:42:50.880 --> 1:42:54.360 Elon Musk annoying to be around. Considering rf K Junior's 1:42:54.400 --> 1:42:59.599 speech impediment and Elon Musk's apparent neurodiversity, Trump just might 1:42:59.640 --> 1:43:02.439 not want to be around them. So, even though he 1:43:02.479 --> 1:43:06.280 did utilize both these figures to get elected, albeit slightly 1:43:06.360 --> 1:43:08.640 later on in the campaign, it took a while for 1:43:08.760 --> 1:43:10.880 Musk to kind of worm his way into Trump's orbit. 1:43:11.760 --> 1:43:15.360 I am not convinced that they will have direct access 1:43:15.439 --> 1:43:17.160 to Trump for very long. 1:43:17.320 --> 1:43:17.479 Now. 1:43:18.040 --> 1:43:20.120 This could happen, but if you look at Steve Bannon, 1:43:20.160 --> 1:43:22.800 who was similarly a worrying figure, he did not last 1:43:22.960 --> 1:43:26.840 very long beside Trump. So something like this could happen now, 1:43:26.880 --> 1:43:29.240 I don't think it'll happen the exact same way. Elon 1:43:29.360 --> 1:43:31.960 Musk has been positioning himself to have the government be 1:43:32.280 --> 1:43:35.800 reliant on him for contracting, and he'll probably continue to 1:43:35.840 --> 1:43:39.160 exist in some form in that regard, But in terms 1:43:39.200 --> 1:43:42.040 of his like direct influence on the White House and 1:43:42.200 --> 1:43:47.040 controlling sectors of government, this won't necessarily be a four 1:43:47.120 --> 1:43:51.280 year thing. I think that is most of what I 1:43:51.439 --> 1:43:54.120 had on this topic. 1:43:53.880 --> 1:43:54.800 I guess. I guess. 1:43:54.800 --> 1:43:58.280 The other thing is, like it turns out in Harris's 1:43:58.280 --> 1:44:02.040 efforts to kind of court independent and court like Republicans 1:44:02.479 --> 1:44:04.719 that largely that largely failed. 1:44:05.000 --> 1:44:06.679 Massive failure, massive failure. 1:44:06.760 --> 1:44:08.400 I mean again, it turns out when you have a 1:44:08.439 --> 1:44:11.320 party that's running as kind of like a mini fascist party, 1:44:11.320 --> 1:44:13.040 and then you have another party that's running as just 1:44:13.080 --> 1:44:13.920 a conservative party. 1:44:13.960 --> 1:44:15.240 We've got Dick Cheney. 1:44:15.600 --> 1:44:18.720 Yeah, it's not a solid opposition party. Why like this 1:44:18.800 --> 1:44:21.320 hasn't worked for like the second time in a row. 1:44:21.600 --> 1:44:24.680 The stats are almost identical to twenty twenty on this 1:44:24.760 --> 1:44:28.679 issue of Republicans voting for the Republican Party. In fact, 1:44:28.840 --> 1:44:32.880 it was slightly fewer of them voted Republican back in 1:44:32.920 --> 1:44:35.880 twenty twenty. More of them voted Republican in twenty twenty four. 1:44:36.000 --> 1:44:37.439 I think it's by about one percent. 1:44:37.920 --> 1:44:42.680 Trying to court the conservative vote means that the Conservatives 1:44:42.720 --> 1:44:44.680 are going to vote for conservative. 1:44:44.240 --> 1:44:46.320 Maybe we should have an actual opposition party if you 1:44:46.320 --> 1:44:47.720 believe in electoral politics. 1:44:48.479 --> 1:44:48.759 Yeah. 1:44:48.880 --> 1:44:51.559 No, I mean, like the lesson people should take from 1:44:51.560 --> 1:44:55.479 trump Ism Trump did not get where he is by 1:44:55.560 --> 1:45:00.800 courting the conservative vote. Now Trump took over the Republican 1:45:00.880 --> 1:45:04.840 Party and made it the Trump Party, and yeah, like 1:45:05.120 --> 1:45:08.760 that is what worked, right, Like, and that's that's the 1:45:08.840 --> 1:45:12.360 actual lesson. Like the reason why Dick Cheney was fucking 1:45:12.439 --> 1:45:16.880 doing appearances with Kamala Harris was because conservatives, what we 1:45:16.880 --> 1:45:20.040 had known as conservatives prior to Trump coming to power, 1:45:20.920 --> 1:45:24.559 largely are out of the picture, right, Like the new 1:45:24.640 --> 1:45:28.640 crop of guys are all weirdos that have molded themselves 1:45:28.720 --> 1:45:32.960 in the image of Trump since his rise to power. Right, Yeah, 1:45:33.000 --> 1:45:35.799 And one of the things that is, like, the lesson 1:45:35.840 --> 1:45:38.439 is not we need to make our own Trump, although 1:45:38.439 --> 1:45:40.679 by god, some people are going to take that lesson 1:45:40.680 --> 1:45:43.000 out of this. The lesson is that, sure, you have 1:45:43.080 --> 1:45:46.760 to come to people with a vision, right, Like, you 1:45:46.800 --> 1:45:49.120 don't come to people by saying, well, what if we 1:45:49.160 --> 1:45:51.439 put a Republican in our cabinet? Right, what if it's 1:45:51.479 --> 1:45:53.680 basically the same as this last thing that you're not 1:45:53.720 --> 1:45:56.320 really that happy with, but instead with more Cheney. 1:45:56.560 --> 1:45:59.000 Right, it turns out that doesn't drive food or enthusiasm. 1:45:59.200 --> 1:46:01.920 And hey, like that, you know, I'm hitting the Libs 1:46:01.920 --> 1:46:04.599 pretty hard because this is like the most catastrophic failure 1:46:04.640 --> 1:46:07.720 of any political party in living memory. Right, so they 1:46:07.720 --> 1:46:10.080 do deserve to be hit. But it's not like the 1:46:10.160 --> 1:46:14.559 left accomplished anything right, either electorally or otherwise. Right, there 1:46:14.600 --> 1:46:18.920 is no organized national left wing movement that is worth 1:46:19.000 --> 1:46:22.320 talking about in any kind of building power way, Like 1:46:22.400 --> 1:46:23.759 it simply doesn't exist. 1:46:24.000 --> 1:46:29.120 And ignoring the blind loyalty that people have for Trump 1:46:30.000 --> 1:46:34.160 was a mistake. Yeah, not considering like targeting that audience. 1:46:34.280 --> 1:46:37.160 It doesn't seem like all of the January sixth ads 1:46:37.240 --> 1:46:38.280 did anything at all. 1:46:38.360 --> 1:46:39.639 No, did fuck all. 1:46:39.720 --> 1:46:43.479 I mean, in fact, in fact statistically they did they 1:46:43.479 --> 1:46:46.040 did nothing. They did nothing to hurt Trump. Yeah, right, 1:46:46.560 --> 1:46:49.880 if Trump gets essentially the same total number of votes, 1:46:50.280 --> 1:46:53.720 they didn't do anything to hurt him like that, Like 1:46:53.720 --> 1:46:56.080 that strategy was not that was not successful. 1:46:56.160 --> 1:46:57.679 Yeah, you have to offer something. 1:46:57.760 --> 1:47:01.800 And just the large swath of like electoral nihilism that 1:47:01.560 --> 1:47:05.160 that the Democratic Party keeps keeps running up against continues 1:47:05.200 --> 1:47:06.840 to be its most like existential threat. 1:47:07.400 --> 1:47:10.400 Robert Garre and I at the RNC talked to a 1:47:10.479 --> 1:47:15.040 variety of people who did not give a flying fuck 1:47:15.320 --> 1:47:16.719 about Trump's record. 1:47:16.760 --> 1:47:17.280 Well, of course not. 1:47:17.280 --> 1:47:21.120 All they cared about was no, they had blind loyalty 1:47:21.160 --> 1:47:24.120 timp I posted this on Twitter dot com, and I'm 1:47:24.120 --> 1:47:27.400 thinking specifically of the woman that was like compared Trump's 1:47:27.640 --> 1:47:31.320 evil for lack of a better word, oh, sometimes he's ridiculous, 1:47:31.760 --> 1:47:36.480 like my husband, and that blind loyalty and the Democrats 1:47:36.479 --> 1:47:39.679 weren't gonna fucking flip those people. That was not gonna happen. 1:47:40.080 --> 1:47:43.880 They took a gamble, wasn't even really a gamble. They 1:47:43.880 --> 1:47:46.040 took a gamble on the wrong crowd, and like that 1:47:46.040 --> 1:47:49.880 that's not effective, but you know, it's not really here 1:47:49.960 --> 1:47:52.800 or there at this point. It happened kind of like 1:47:53.040 --> 1:47:56.040 now what, Yeah, we haven't really heard from me much, 1:47:56.120 --> 1:48:00.559 so I'm gonna I'm gonna shoot over to me A yeah, and. 1:48:00.520 --> 1:48:02.840 I mean I think I think where I'm at is 1:48:02.880 --> 1:48:05.920 that Okay, we're in this moment. Are one of our 1:48:05.960 --> 1:48:10.600 biggest advantages is that we're not the Democrats. Right, this 1:48:10.680 --> 1:48:13.280 has been a fairly comprehensive referendum on the failure of 1:48:13.280 --> 1:48:18.840 the Democrats to offer anything. We also like screwed up 1:48:19.000 --> 1:48:20.400 offering a better world. 1:48:20.640 --> 1:48:20.760 Right. 1:48:21.000 --> 1:48:22.200 This is you know, I look, if you look at 1:48:22.200 --> 1:48:23.800 what happened to twenty twenty, and you look at the 1:48:23.800 --> 1:48:25.960 places that we actually sort of like I mean took 1:48:26.040 --> 1:48:27.719 power as a strong word, but like there are places 1:48:27.720 --> 1:48:31.280 where we ran the cops out and we screwed up 1:48:31.320 --> 1:48:36.760 making those places like a world that was like ideologically 1:48:36.800 --> 1:48:40.080 compelling it off to spread, and like we're not going 1:48:40.120 --> 1:48:42.200 to get like a third do over of that, right. 1:48:42.280 --> 1:48:44.960 We have to be able to sort of like when 1:48:45.000 --> 1:48:46.479 the moment arise, we have to be able to actually 1:48:46.520 --> 1:48:49.120 create a world that is better enough than this one 1:48:50.040 --> 1:48:54.479 that we can move. But that's not impossible. Yeah, I 1:48:54.520 --> 1:48:56.519 think what we have right now is we have a 1:48:56.560 --> 1:48:59.040 period of time before Trump takes power, and we have 1:48:59.200 --> 1:49:02.479 this time to washer beasts. We have this time to organize, 1:49:02.560 --> 1:49:06.640 We have this time to plan and I think of 1:49:06.800 --> 1:49:08.200 the at least part of what we need to do, 1:49:08.240 --> 1:49:10.960 and we'll we'll get into this more like in other 1:49:11.000 --> 1:49:14.160 episodes and later too. You know, there's there's there's the 1:49:14.160 --> 1:49:17.000 obvious tasks of organization. There's getting people involved in things, 1:49:17.000 --> 1:49:19.560 there's getting into meetings. I also think, and this is 1:49:19.600 --> 1:49:24.080 something that's I think easier to do, like literally immediately, 1:49:24.320 --> 1:49:27.280 is that we've been fighting completely defensively on the cultural 1:49:27.360 --> 1:49:29.400 front for four years and it's been a complete disaster, 1:49:30.000 --> 1:49:33.000 and we need to have a large scale cultural offensive. 1:49:33.000 --> 1:49:37.120 There needs to be something other than fucking TikTok Mormonism, 1:49:37.320 --> 1:49:39.519 like we need we need some alternatives to trad wife ship. 1:49:39.560 --> 1:49:45.639 We need alternatives to this like terrible, like the fucking 1:49:45.680 --> 1:49:48.519 influencer sphere. There needs to be something else. We need 1:49:48.560 --> 1:49:53.639 to create that very very fast, anarchist tradwife stuff like Christ. 1:49:56.000 --> 1:49:57.200 That's what's gonna say us. 1:49:57.320 --> 1:50:00.719 All right, yeah, everybody, everybody go buy a sun dress 1:50:00.920 --> 1:50:02.200 right now, get out. 1:50:02.040 --> 1:50:04.040 There, both of you to assume we don't have them, 1:50:04.080 --> 1:50:05.320 Robot and. 1:50:05.240 --> 1:50:07.679 I'm gonna I'm gonna pull Robert everything. Speaking of buying things, 1:50:07.680 --> 1:50:22.160 it's time for our last ad break. All right, we're back, 1:50:22.240 --> 1:50:23.880 and I do want to get I do want to 1:50:23.920 --> 1:50:27.000 get into, you know, a little bit more specifics of 1:50:27.080 --> 1:50:30.240 what can we do now, And I just want to 1:50:30.280 --> 1:50:33.599 say a fucking lot. The cards are on the table. 1:50:33.800 --> 1:50:35.439 It's going to be a busy four years. 1:50:35.680 --> 1:50:36.400 Yeah, you know. 1:50:36.439 --> 1:50:40.000 I intended Margaret's book books signing last week, and I've 1:50:40.040 --> 1:50:42.200 attended lots of our events. And one of the questions 1:50:42.400 --> 1:50:44.000 and q and a's, and one of the questions that 1:50:44.000 --> 1:50:46.400 gets asked all the time is how do I get involved? 1:50:46.560 --> 1:50:48.559 How do I how do I find how do I 1:50:48.600 --> 1:50:51.240 meet people? How do I do this things? And you know, 1:50:51.840 --> 1:50:53.400 I want to get into that. I also want to 1:50:53.400 --> 1:50:56.960 give some very basic tangible advice. You know, don't post 1:50:57.320 --> 1:50:59.040 stupid things on the internet. 1:50:59.280 --> 1:51:01.599 If somebody tells you we need to go out and 1:51:02.360 --> 1:51:05.800 engage in revolutionary activity, maybe sit at home right now. 1:51:05.840 --> 1:51:07.120 You don't want to come into this thing with a 1:51:07.160 --> 1:51:12.840 criminal record. Nobody is making good plans right now. Go 1:51:13.000 --> 1:51:16.639 make good ones. Don't just reactively show up and follow 1:51:16.680 --> 1:51:18.400 someone with a clipboard in the streets. 1:51:18.720 --> 1:51:22.720 Don't post actionable threats on the internet. 1:51:23.120 --> 1:51:25.479 Don't post that picture of that comedian that gave that 1:51:25.520 --> 1:51:28.000 really funny joke. Just don't do it. There's no reason to. 1:51:28.439 --> 1:51:33.280 It's not cool. Yeah, Like, don't if you know what, 1:51:33.439 --> 1:51:35.600 if you know what comedian I'm talking about, you'll get it. 1:51:35.640 --> 1:51:36.160 You'll get it. 1:51:37.040 --> 1:51:39.960 If you're going to, you know, get messed up. Use 1:51:40.000 --> 1:51:42.439 substances in order to cope with things. Log out of 1:51:42.479 --> 1:51:45.400 social media on all of your devices first. 1:51:45.360 --> 1:51:45.519 You know. 1:51:46.479 --> 1:51:49.560 Yeah, sounds like that's some advice you were giving yourself. 1:51:50.720 --> 1:51:53.640 Sober as a church mouse, Sophie, just just coffee and 1:51:53.720 --> 1:51:54.880 clean Mountain Air for me. 1:51:55.640 --> 1:51:58.040 A very basic recommendation that I have for people is 1:51:58.080 --> 1:51:59.040 to get delete me. 1:51:59.240 --> 1:52:00.479 Yeah mm hmm. 1:52:01.240 --> 1:52:04.479 It is worth the investment. It is a good product, 1:52:04.800 --> 1:52:05.679 That's what I'll say. 1:52:06.160 --> 1:52:10.760 Yes, delete me is a service that helps purge aspects 1:52:10.800 --> 1:52:12.719 of your public record from the internet. 1:52:12.840 --> 1:52:12.960 Right. 1:52:13.000 --> 1:52:14.880 There's a lot of different site like, yeah, you have 1:52:14.960 --> 1:52:17.479 been involved if you are a person who participates in 1:52:17.560 --> 1:52:20.120 the economy through the internet. Right, if you buy things 1:52:20.160 --> 1:52:22.360 through the internet, your shit has been leaked. 1:52:22.520 --> 1:52:22.720 Right. 1:52:23.080 --> 1:52:26.080 Their you know tagline is your private information is no 1:52:26.120 --> 1:52:29.400 longer private. Right, And so essentially what they do is 1:52:29.439 --> 1:52:33.639 they scour the Internet and remove your personal data from 1:52:33.680 --> 1:52:37.880 online and they don't do that once. They continuously do it. 1:52:38.320 --> 1:52:40.600 This is like a fantastic plug for the product. They 1:52:40.680 --> 1:52:43.160 are not paying us. Yeah, let's just say the Churchier 1:52:43.280 --> 1:52:46.479 Scientology could not find me. Hell yeah, So. 1:52:47.080 --> 1:52:49.280 I will say there is some alternatives to delete me 1:52:49.320 --> 1:52:50.519 that are trying to get up the running. We might 1:52:50.520 --> 1:52:52.759 do a full episode on data removal in the future. 1:52:53.040 --> 1:52:54.400 Yeah, we definitely should. 1:52:54.439 --> 1:52:56.880 It does require you to also do manual inputs. There 1:52:56.880 --> 1:52:59.360 are certain sites that delete me when they send takedown 1:52:59.400 --> 1:53:02.599 requests to data brokers. Certain sites will not comply. You 1:53:02.640 --> 1:53:05.760 have to send requests manually. It's pretty simple, but they 1:53:05.800 --> 1:53:07.800 will give you a list of certain sites as well 1:53:08.240 --> 1:53:12.200 to do to go through this process manually. But I 1:53:12.200 --> 1:53:13.720 think like kind of the last thing we want to 1:53:13.760 --> 1:53:16.479 talk about is like we have seventy five days right 1:53:16.520 --> 1:53:19.479 to like prepare for stuff. We have seventy five days 1:53:19.520 --> 1:53:22.000 to prepare for the next four years. In some ways, 1:53:22.040 --> 1:53:24.080 it's going to kind of be like twenty seventeen to 1:53:24.120 --> 1:53:27.720 twenty nineteen again, which was a very busy time. Kind 1:53:27.760 --> 1:53:29.160 of all of the right wing gouals that have been 1:53:29.240 --> 1:53:31.439 hiding under the rocks the past few years because of 1:53:31.439 --> 1:53:34.120 the liberal doj will probably start coming out of the woodwork. 1:53:34.520 --> 1:53:36.719 There's going to be, you know, a lot more stuff 1:53:36.800 --> 1:53:40.719 going on, and you know, those of us that are here, 1:53:41.240 --> 1:53:43.080 we're able to make it through those years. Some of 1:53:43.120 --> 1:53:46.240 your friends probably weren't able to, and it is up 1:53:46.240 --> 1:53:48.760 to us to take care of each other to try 1:53:48.800 --> 1:53:52.680 to ensure that ourselves and people we know have a 1:53:52.680 --> 1:53:54.840 better chance of making it through these next four years. 1:53:55.160 --> 1:53:57.479 And I think kind of lastly, I'd like to kind 1:53:57.520 --> 1:54:01.160 of just go around talking about like what that will 1:54:01.200 --> 1:54:03.320 look like and how to kind of start that process, 1:54:03.840 --> 1:54:08.360 especially during these first seventy five days. Like brunch is over. 1:54:09.000 --> 1:54:11.360 Brunch has been over for a while, bunch of brunch 1:54:11.400 --> 1:54:14.360 should have never started. Yeah, but brunch is over now, 1:54:14.640 --> 1:54:17.360 So what can what can we do in these next 1:54:17.400 --> 1:54:18.360 to seventy five days? 1:54:18.840 --> 1:54:21.200 It's share your black coffee with friends. 1:54:21.280 --> 1:54:23.360 Time, share your black coffee with friends. 1:54:23.400 --> 1:54:24.960 Maybe cork the champagne. 1:54:25.240 --> 1:54:27.919 Yeah, yeah, yeah, cork the champagne. 1:54:27.960 --> 1:54:30.000 You've drinking that orange juice though you don't have enough 1:54:30.080 --> 1:54:30.560 vitamin C. 1:54:31.040 --> 1:54:34.400 Or when you and your anarchist tradwife friends get together 1:54:34.440 --> 1:54:38.200 for brunch, just make sure to actually talk about real 1:54:38.320 --> 1:54:39.520 radical things you can do. 1:54:39.560 --> 1:54:41.680 Because if you already have a way of gathering with. 1:54:41.640 --> 1:54:44.560 Your friends, you should just turn it into talking about 1:54:44.560 --> 1:54:45.400 more than just how. 1:54:45.280 --> 1:54:45.800 Your day is. 1:54:45.920 --> 1:54:48.120 Absolutely, Yeah, I feel like I need to put on 1:54:48.120 --> 1:54:49.560 the record that what I said, that what I was 1:54:49.600 --> 1:54:53.600 trying to say is we need feminism, not an anti tradwife. 1:54:54.240 --> 1:54:55.720 I don't know how that was conveyed. 1:54:56.040 --> 1:54:58.480 I was trying to recruit you into my tradwife called. 1:54:58.520 --> 1:55:01.080 No, thank you for clarifying. Yeah, but that was very 1:55:01.200 --> 1:55:07.760 much understood. But being a little bit literal right now. 1:55:08.440 --> 1:55:09.080 Is not bad. 1:55:09.680 --> 1:55:13.320 Yeah, there, so true. I just think about like the 1:55:13.360 --> 1:55:16.480 ways that I've found my people and the way that 1:55:16.560 --> 1:55:21.600 I have made my community. Obviously, like the taglines of 1:55:21.720 --> 1:55:24.000 you know, talk to your neighbors and things like that 1:55:24.120 --> 1:55:29.920 are absolutely important, but the recommendation you know, obviously joining 1:55:30.000 --> 1:55:32.280 orgs are great. Sure, that's a great talking point, but 1:55:32.320 --> 1:55:34.800 that's not really how I met my community. The people 1:55:34.840 --> 1:55:39.160 that are essentially my family now, I met by going 1:55:39.240 --> 1:55:45.080 to content and different creators, shows and music and different 1:55:45.120 --> 1:55:48.000 events where we had mutual interests, even if that meant 1:55:48.000 --> 1:55:52.280 that I had to drive pretty far and found people 1:55:52.640 --> 1:55:55.400 that liked the things that I like. And it turns 1:55:55.400 --> 1:55:57.160 out a lot of the people that like the things 1:55:57.240 --> 1:56:00.600 you like believe the things you believe, and if they don't, 1:56:00.960 --> 1:56:04.200 they're usually pretty open to hearing you out. Yeah, and 1:56:04.440 --> 1:56:07.320 I think it's super important to listen to your friends 1:56:07.760 --> 1:56:11.280 and also, like I've said this quite a bit, support 1:56:11.320 --> 1:56:15.920 your friend's weird hobby. Yeah, that's super crucial. Listen to 1:56:16.000 --> 1:56:21.480 the people around you, And it's not easy. I had 1:56:21.600 --> 1:56:25.120 basically no friends for a very long time because I 1:56:25.200 --> 1:56:30.000 did not have the right people around me, and it 1:56:30.000 --> 1:56:33.600 took a lot of effort to find my core humans. 1:56:34.120 --> 1:56:37.000 I mean, I'm not recommending this, and several of us 1:56:37.080 --> 1:56:40.320 did do this. I moved to a different state. You 1:56:40.400 --> 1:56:44.320 save up for it. It's definitely not affordable thing to do, 1:56:44.800 --> 1:56:48.200 definitely not an easy thing to do. But I don't 1:56:48.240 --> 1:56:50.400 know where I would be without those people, and I 1:56:50.440 --> 1:56:50.960 love them. 1:56:51.720 --> 1:56:54.400 Yeah, politics and culture do go hand in hand in 1:56:54.440 --> 1:56:57.400 so many ways, and kind of cultural engagement and ways 1:56:57.400 --> 1:56:59.840 to kind of grow your social network, especially you know 1:57:00.080 --> 1:57:02.720 in places where there's probably where there's I mean in 1:57:02.720 --> 1:57:05.520 my case, you know, like trans people, queer people, people 1:57:05.520 --> 1:57:08.000 that I'm kind of around, and people who I'm like, 1:57:08.040 --> 1:57:11.520 you know, concerned about, like personally, people are like no, 1:57:11.640 --> 1:57:14.600 you know, going into these next four years, I guess 1:57:14.640 --> 1:57:17.280 like the biggest thing I was kind of thinking about 1:57:17.360 --> 1:57:20.560 last night is like, yes, these next four years are 1:57:20.600 --> 1:57:23.240 going to suck, and in many ways it'll just be 1:57:23.240 --> 1:57:27.200 like everything will just get slightly worse. But like I 1:57:27.240 --> 1:57:31.240 know that myself and those I know like immediately around 1:57:31.280 --> 1:57:34.320 me will be fine, Like we will be okay. Things 1:57:34.320 --> 1:57:37.040 will be worse, but we already have networks, We already 1:57:37.080 --> 1:57:39.400 have community. We have these things built up to take 1:57:39.440 --> 1:57:42.440 care of each other and provide the things that we need, 1:57:42.720 --> 1:57:44.720 and this is something that we'll be talking more about 1:57:44.720 --> 1:57:46.360 in the kind of the next few months. Like we 1:57:47.040 --> 1:57:49.520 have we have that, and that's taken effort. That doesn't 1:57:49.560 --> 1:57:52.640 just happen by itself. It requires effort, and it requires 1:57:52.680 --> 1:57:55.440 resistance to this idea like community nihilism, this kind of 1:57:55.520 --> 1:57:57.280 belief that like community is like not a real thing 1:57:57.320 --> 1:58:00.360 that doesn't actually exist, which is a very privileged thing 1:58:00.400 --> 1:58:03.080 to believe, because there's people out there who rely on 1:58:03.080 --> 1:58:05.200 this and will continue to rely on this even more 1:58:05.440 --> 1:58:09.280 in these next few years. But there are those without that, 1:58:09.600 --> 1:58:11.880 and and that's the people I'm most concerned about. Yeah, 1:58:12.280 --> 1:58:14.680 it's queer kids, it's trans kids who do not have 1:58:14.760 --> 1:58:18.440 those networks, do not have those communities, people who are 1:58:18.440 --> 1:58:21.400 isolated like that is who I am most concerned about that. 1:58:21.480 --> 1:58:24.640 And I understand the impulse to kind of isolate and 1:58:24.800 --> 1:58:27.240 just go online because that's safer than having to go 1:58:27.280 --> 1:58:29.640 out into the real world, or at least it feels safer, 1:58:30.080 --> 1:58:32.400 But I don't think that's actually real. I think that 1:58:32.520 --> 1:58:35.440 leads to its own forms of detrimental harm. So like 1:58:35.480 --> 1:58:37.360 it requires like a getting off discord and like a 1:58:37.400 --> 1:58:40.800 going into your community and trying to make friends, which 1:58:40.800 --> 1:58:43.440 can be scary, but it is like incredibly crucial. I 1:58:43.520 --> 1:58:46.240 think we should talk about like joining actual orgs as well. 1:58:46.720 --> 1:58:48.280 I think some other people on this call can speak 1:58:48.320 --> 1:58:51.000 more to that and like the utility of those as well. 1:58:51.240 --> 1:58:53.880 But I think first and foremostly even getting a network 1:58:53.880 --> 1:58:57.240 of friends outside of orgs, it's also a very is 1:58:57.280 --> 1:59:01.040 a very good it's not even it's just like a 1:59:01.080 --> 1:59:03.839 life support system that it's going to be super important. 1:59:04.000 --> 1:59:07.880 Yeah, yeah, I'd like to throw it to Margaret for 1:59:08.240 --> 1:59:09.960 a socond because she looks like she really wants to 1:59:09.960 --> 1:59:10.520 say something. 1:59:11.680 --> 1:59:13.800 Oh and I don't actually disagree with anything that they're saying. 1:59:13.840 --> 1:59:14.720 I think, no, not at all. 1:59:15.040 --> 1:59:16.520 It's absolutely crucial. 1:59:16.560 --> 1:59:19.120 I wanted to just say that, like, I think there's 1:59:19.120 --> 1:59:22.560 actually a weird blurriness in the lines between an organization 1:59:22.640 --> 1:59:25.840 and a friend group, right totally. And the problem isn't 1:59:25.880 --> 1:59:28.400 necessarily subculture. The problem is a sort of if we 1:59:28.440 --> 1:59:30.840 have this idea that there's a hegemonic subculture, like in 1:59:30.920 --> 1:59:32.640 order to be a radical, you have to be part 1:59:32.680 --> 1:59:36.600 of our click, right, And that's a problem. Whereas if 1:59:36.600 --> 1:59:39.520 whatever click you're already part of or already subculture you're 1:59:39.520 --> 1:59:42.920 already part of you turn that radical. I think that is, 1:59:43.000 --> 1:59:45.200 you know, it's what Sophie was talking about. But then yes, 1:59:45.240 --> 1:59:47.600 there's a lot of people who have no access to 1:59:47.640 --> 1:59:49.080 any of that, and some of it, as I think 1:59:49.080 --> 1:59:51.600 you're saying, is well, if you only hang out with 1:59:51.600 --> 1:59:53.720 your friends on discord, like maybe it's time to start 1:59:53.760 --> 1:59:57.240 meeting up in person, and even if that's very complicated 1:59:57.240 --> 2:00:00.000 to do. But I also think that there's a huge, 2:00:00.040 --> 2:00:06.160 huge importance to open door organizing and organizing. Like when 2:00:06.160 --> 2:00:08.000 I say orgs, I don't mean like go join PSL 2:00:08.080 --> 2:00:10.920 or any authoritarian cult, right, or that there should never 2:00:10.960 --> 2:00:13.720 be a one organization that says this is the strategy 2:00:13.720 --> 2:00:16.120 that we have to use to fight this. But instead, 2:00:16.880 --> 2:00:19.080 if you get together with the people that you want 2:00:19.080 --> 2:00:20.680 to get together with and say, this is the problem 2:00:20.720 --> 2:00:23.000 we're dealing with, how do we deal with it? And 2:00:23.280 --> 2:00:25.440 that is how you can create an organization. And if 2:00:25.480 --> 2:00:28.520 you do that, many of those organizations, I would hope 2:00:28.640 --> 2:00:32.040 would have open door policies and be public because there 2:00:32.040 --> 2:00:34.720 are so many isolated people who want to be involved 2:00:34.760 --> 2:00:38.040 who don't have any kind of like cultural cachet with 2:00:38.160 --> 2:00:41.160 which to get into a more subcultural group. I think 2:00:41.200 --> 2:00:44.360 this is why churches are very good at recruiting unfortunately 2:00:44.840 --> 2:00:47.560 depending on the church, but like because you can just 2:00:47.600 --> 2:00:49.760 show up and they will be like, okay, you have 2:00:49.800 --> 2:00:53.280 a community now, right, And that is what people desperately want, 2:00:53.320 --> 2:00:54.640 I think right now. And we have to be careful. 2:00:54.680 --> 2:00:56.480 We don't want to just be like, oh, therefore we 2:00:56.520 --> 2:00:59.919 should replicate what they do. But I think that overall 2:01:00.160 --> 2:01:03.160 what our movement needs is instead of gatekeepers, we need ushers. 2:01:03.480 --> 2:01:06.760 We need people to help people find their way into 2:01:06.880 --> 2:01:10.040 the movement, to help bring them in and figure out like, hey, 2:01:10.040 --> 2:01:11.960 what are you good at or what are you interested 2:01:12.000 --> 2:01:14.240 in being good at? Here's how you can apply it. 2:01:14.480 --> 2:01:16.360 And I want to really quickly use a case study 2:01:16.360 --> 2:01:18.240 that happened from the last Trump election that I think 2:01:18.320 --> 2:01:20.480 was actually fairly useful. It was living in a small town, 2:01:20.840 --> 2:01:23.400 a small city with a fairly vibrant to anarchist community, 2:01:23.880 --> 2:01:28.920 and when Trump was elected, we called for anarchist assemblies 2:01:29.120 --> 2:01:32.640 and they were open door and they were places where 2:01:32.760 --> 2:01:36.000 you don't get together to plan crime. But all of 2:01:36.040 --> 2:01:39.120 these different mutual aid groups would come and bring representation. 2:01:39.280 --> 2:01:41.640 People would say this is what we're working on. This 2:01:41.680 --> 2:01:43.680 is what we can use help with. And they weren't 2:01:43.840 --> 2:01:48.360 decision making bodies, they were information sharing bodies. And a 2:01:48.400 --> 2:01:51.040 lot of different groups spun up out of it that 2:01:51.120 --> 2:01:54.320 are still around, like herbal clinics and different mutual aid 2:01:54.400 --> 2:01:58.480 organizations because we just said, hey, everyone who cares about this, 2:01:58.600 --> 2:02:01.480 let's get together and talk about what we want to do. 2:02:02.000 --> 2:02:04.120 And I found that to be an incredibly useful thing. 2:02:04.160 --> 2:02:05.680 And it's like the kind of thing I would pitch 2:02:05.720 --> 2:02:09.000 to people is not necessarily and if you're not an anarchist, 2:02:09.080 --> 2:02:11.480 don't do it as the anarchist thing. Yeah, that's that's 2:02:11.480 --> 2:02:13.040 what I care about. That's what I'm excited about. 2:02:13.320 --> 2:02:15.560 Yeah, I just wanted to offer, like, first of all, 2:02:15.600 --> 2:02:18.960 like get outside if you can, like touch craw and 2:02:19.120 --> 2:02:21.480 touch grass. Can be very condescending, and I don't mean 2:02:21.520 --> 2:02:25.000 it like that. I just like I was feeling stressed 2:02:25.080 --> 2:02:26.920 last week and I went off and I climbed to 2:02:26.960 --> 2:02:28.480 the top of a mountain and I sat there by 2:02:28.520 --> 2:02:30.360 myself for a while and it was nice and it 2:02:30.400 --> 2:02:33.240 was so quiet. I could hear like this little hawk's wingspeeding, 2:02:33.520 --> 2:02:35.320 and that was really good for me. That's what I 2:02:35.400 --> 2:02:38.720 like to hear. It would not have changed the outcome 2:02:38.760 --> 2:02:41.120 one bit if I had stayed and sound twister dot 2:02:41.120 --> 2:02:44.000 com for four hours instead of doing that. So I 2:02:44.040 --> 2:02:46.440 want you to all take time for yourselves and do 2:02:46.560 --> 2:02:47.520 things that kind. 2:02:47.400 --> 2:02:49.160 Of make you feel hopeful. 2:02:49.400 --> 2:02:51.040 I want to build a for what Margaret said, there 2:02:51.040 --> 2:02:53.120 are so many skills that all of you had that 2:02:53.160 --> 2:02:55.880 you could share with someone. I think when I started 2:02:55.880 --> 2:02:59.760 being an anarchist, it was largely because I was going 2:02:59.800 --> 2:03:03.640 to a bike co op and like, people shared their 2:03:03.640 --> 2:03:05.920 skills with me, and I shared my skills with them, 2:03:05.960 --> 2:03:08.360 and we all shared our stuff with each other, and 2:03:09.320 --> 2:03:11.040 I worked out that we could just rely on other 2:03:11.040 --> 2:03:12.760 people for that shit and they didn't need to be 2:03:12.840 --> 2:03:16.640 hierarchical or based on some transfer of material goods. 2:03:16.680 --> 2:03:18.040 People just want to help each other. 2:03:19.760 --> 2:03:21.840 And a lot of people have messaged me saying that, 2:03:22.080 --> 2:03:24.400 like they know that I participate in mutilae and they 2:03:24.400 --> 2:03:27.840 want you to. If you can't see it, then you 2:03:27.920 --> 2:03:31.360 have to start it, and that's okay. You can change 2:03:31.360 --> 2:03:33.240 the world if you make a caller full of sandwiches 2:03:33.280 --> 2:03:35.400 and give them to people who are hungry. I guarantee 2:03:35.440 --> 2:03:37.840 if you start doing that shit, you will find other 2:03:37.880 --> 2:03:40.080 people and they will say hey, what are you doing? 2:03:40.240 --> 2:03:42.880 Oh I'm feeling people? Why because they're hungry? Can I help? 2:03:43.000 --> 2:03:46.640 Yes, it's that easy, and like we can build from there. 2:03:46.720 --> 2:03:48.880 We don't have to agree with them on everything, first 2:03:48.920 --> 2:03:52.160 of all, but we can build from there, and I 2:03:52.200 --> 2:03:55.840 think it can be really scary, But like now, it's 2:03:55.840 --> 2:03:59.600 the time to start, not once things get worse, you know, 2:04:00.080 --> 2:04:01.760 four eight years ago was the time to start. But 2:04:01.840 --> 2:04:03.840 we can't go back, and I want to kind of 2:04:04.240 --> 2:04:07.360 finish up with that that we can't go back. I 2:04:07.560 --> 2:04:10.720 don't care where someone was yesterday. I don't care where 2:04:10.720 --> 2:04:12.560 they were last week. I don't care where they were 2:04:12.600 --> 2:04:14.800 last year, like all the malices, where they are now, 2:04:15.440 --> 2:04:19.120 and we can build forward from here. We cannot go 2:04:19.240 --> 2:04:23.640 back and change things. And it is not worth doing 2:04:23.960 --> 2:04:28.560 endless recriminations. It doesn't matter it's happened. It's on us 2:04:28.600 --> 2:04:32.240 to decide how we react now. And you can react 2:04:32.280 --> 2:04:35.520 in a way that strengthens our communities and that builds 2:04:35.520 --> 2:04:37.160 ways are taking care of each other, which aren't way 2:04:37.160 --> 2:04:40.480 they of controlling each other. That that's all that you 2:04:40.600 --> 2:04:44.320 need to do to make this so much less despairing, 2:04:44.720 --> 2:04:48.400 so much less terrible, and so much less deadly for 2:04:48.480 --> 2:04:50.480 some people. And I know that we're doing that here. 2:04:51.040 --> 2:04:53.480 Check in on my friends. I'm in the Daddy and Gap. 2:04:53.480 --> 2:04:56.800 I'm checking in on my mutual aid friends. And if 2:04:56.800 --> 2:04:58.640 you don't have that, I want you to build that. 2:04:58.680 --> 2:05:01.360 And I promise it's not something this out of reach, 2:05:01.440 --> 2:05:02.240 like you can do it. 2:05:02.320 --> 2:05:02.520 Yeah. 2:05:02.520 --> 2:05:03.480 I want to add one last thing. 2:05:03.520 --> 2:05:05.200 I think a lot of people think they don't have skills. 2:05:05.200 --> 2:05:06.000 You do have skills. 2:05:06.080 --> 2:05:07.960 The thing that I did when I started organizing was 2:05:07.960 --> 2:05:10.920 I moved chairs around so that people could have meetings 2:05:11.000 --> 2:05:12.840 by moving chairs. And I have helped take care of 2:05:12.880 --> 2:05:17.840 people's kids that like, helped put posters up right. People, 2:05:17.880 --> 2:05:20.040 people can do things. You have things that you can do, 2:05:20.920 --> 2:05:24.400 and it's it's time to lock in. That's that's that's 2:05:24.440 --> 2:05:26.520 what we have from here. It is time to lock in. 2:05:26.560 --> 2:05:28.680 It's time to organize, and it's time to get prepared to fight. 2:05:28.920 --> 2:05:29.560 Yeah. 2:05:29.680 --> 2:05:31.960 Yeah, this is just the first episode after the election. 2:05:32.480 --> 2:05:35.880 In the coming weeks, coming days, coming months, we're going 2:05:35.920 --> 2:05:39.320 to go into very specific detail on things. We are 2:05:39.360 --> 2:05:45.720 going to provide different information and resources and continue to 2:05:45.760 --> 2:05:50.960 defend against disinformation and misinformation. And this is a fucking 2:05:51.040 --> 2:05:51.720 daily show. 2:05:53.600 --> 2:05:55.320 We will we will be getting into all of all 2:05:55.360 --> 2:05:58.600 of these topics, especially in these next to seventy five days, 2:05:58.640 --> 2:06:00.720 to help prepare topic by topic. 2:06:01.200 --> 2:06:03.560 Yeah, it's going to be. It's gonna be a long 2:06:03.600 --> 2:06:04.080 four years. 2:06:23.760 --> 2:06:28.240 Welcome to it could happen? Here a podcast about things 2:06:28.440 --> 2:06:32.880 crumbling and how to pick up the pieces wooing. 2:06:33.520 --> 2:06:34.680 We love to crumble. 2:06:35.000 --> 2:06:40.160 Yeah, yeah, And part of that is understanding what is 2:06:40.280 --> 2:06:43.080 going to happen and how it is going to happen, 2:06:43.880 --> 2:06:46.680 and obsorbing that knowledge and what you can do with it. 2:06:46.800 --> 2:06:50.600 So today James is going to tell us about Trump's 2:06:50.680 --> 2:06:52.280 plans for migrants. 2:06:52.960 --> 2:06:57.160 Yep, yeah, I guess in terms of what's going to happen, 2:06:57.560 --> 2:06:59.600 we don't know, right. Trump said a lot of stuff 2:06:59.600 --> 2:07:01.640 in his first term and kind of didn't stick the 2:07:01.720 --> 2:07:04.240 landing a lot of it he tried. But they're more 2:07:04.280 --> 2:07:06.960 experienced now and I think crucially they have a much 2:07:07.000 --> 2:07:09.520 more favorable Supreme Court and then probably will have an 2:07:09.560 --> 2:07:12.240 even more favorable Supreme Court by the end of this term. 2:07:13.080 --> 2:07:15.680 So a plan to deport up to a million people 2:07:15.720 --> 2:07:18.680 this year was one of the very few concrete and 2:07:18.720 --> 2:07:22.520 tangible promises that the Trump campaign made. Right, they had 2:07:22.520 --> 2:07:25.440 a lot of vibes, nasty vibes, but like in terms 2:07:25.440 --> 2:07:29.160 of like we will do X by y. This was 2:07:29.240 --> 2:07:32.640 one of the very few. Now, Trump tried to deport 2:07:32.640 --> 2:07:33.840 a lot of people in his first term. 2:07:33.920 --> 2:07:34.040 Right. 2:07:34.520 --> 2:07:38.400 The one consistent part of his policy ever since he 2:07:38.520 --> 2:07:42.320 rode sideways down an escalator in twenty fifteen and then 2:07:42.400 --> 2:07:46.120 shit talked to Mexican people, has been an anti migrant policy. 2:07:46.560 --> 2:07:49.440 He didn't really stick the landing on mass deportations in 2:07:49.480 --> 2:07:53.120 his first term. In fact, Biden deported more people in 2:07:53.160 --> 2:07:55.520 twenty twenty three than Trump did in any year of 2:07:55.560 --> 2:07:59.120 his first term. In fact, Trump also fell behind Obama 2:07:59.160 --> 2:08:01.520 in terms of deep ortations per year. None of that 2:08:01.560 --> 2:08:03.840 means that he won't be able to do that this time, right, 2:08:03.920 --> 2:08:06.680 I'm just trying to put some numbers on his promises 2:08:06.680 --> 2:08:10.000 the last time. So I want to look first at 2:08:10.000 --> 2:08:12.280 how he could go about his promise in his second term. 2:08:12.360 --> 2:08:12.560 Right. 2:08:12.960 --> 2:08:14.560 One thing that he said he will do is use 2:08:14.600 --> 2:08:18.280 Title forty two again. So if people have not listened 2:08:18.360 --> 2:08:21.640 to the series I did last May or June on 2:08:21.840 --> 2:08:24.480 Title forty two, I would like to direct them there. 2:08:24.520 --> 2:08:27.680 Title forty two is a reminder, it's a public health law. 2:08:28.080 --> 2:08:32.440 And it's public health law that, in this interpretation, allowed CBP, 2:08:32.680 --> 2:08:36.880 specifically Border Patrol to immediately return people to Mexico without 2:08:36.880 --> 2:08:40.000 processing them first. Sometimes they call it catch and release. 2:08:40.120 --> 2:08:40.320 Right. 2:08:40.440 --> 2:08:45.400 What it resulted in was these are not technically deportations. 2:08:45.520 --> 2:08:48.480 But when Trump said something, I don't think he's considering 2:08:48.480 --> 2:08:51.720 the exact meanings of what he's saying. Right, So if 2:08:51.720 --> 2:08:55.320 we look at Title forty two expulsions, if he's going 2:08:55.320 --> 2:08:58.200 to bring back Title forty two, reaching that one million 2:08:58.280 --> 2:09:01.480 per year number is pretty easy. In fact, that happened 2:09:01.480 --> 2:09:04.600 in twenty twenty two, again under Biden. Right, So if 2:09:04.640 --> 2:09:07.280 he considers those to be deportations and that's within his 2:09:07.360 --> 2:09:11.200 one million per year goal, it's reasonable that he will 2:09:11.240 --> 2:09:12.880 reach to say that he will be able to reach that, 2:09:13.040 --> 2:09:14.840 and he will be able to do that with the 2:09:14.880 --> 2:09:21.400 current infrastructure, right without massively upgrading CBP, ice, ice, detention facilities, 2:09:21.440 --> 2:09:26.120 immigration judges, all those things. Yeah, So, like, if we 2:09:26.160 --> 2:09:28.440 consider those to be deportations, and one million a year 2:09:28.480 --> 2:09:30.480 is very much something that we might. 2:09:30.360 --> 2:09:32.560 Well see, do you know where we're at this year 2:09:32.960 --> 2:09:34.360 or it hasn't been released yet. 2:09:34.880 --> 2:09:35.320 I don't know. 2:09:35.360 --> 2:09:37.760 In twenty twenty two was the last stats I could find. 2:09:38.440 --> 2:09:40.600 I linked to the CBP If people want to look 2:09:40.640 --> 2:09:43.680 at the title forty two and title so Title eight. 2:09:44.200 --> 2:09:47.240 It's the immigration law under which people are normally received right. 2:09:47.400 --> 2:09:50.520 Title forty two ended in May of twenty twenty three, 2:09:50.600 --> 2:09:52.480 mayle elevens twenty twenty three with the end of the 2:09:52.520 --> 2:09:56.000 COVID nineteen emergency, because the reason they were using public 2:09:56.000 --> 2:09:59.120 health law as immigration law was because of this health 2:09:59.160 --> 2:10:02.600 emergency right now. Obviously it was used extremely cynically. For instance, 2:10:02.600 --> 2:10:05.880 there weren't exemptions for vaccinated people, but nonetheless that's why 2:10:05.880 --> 2:10:08.240 they were using it. And when the federal emergency for 2:10:08.280 --> 2:10:10.320 COVID nineteen ended, so did Biden's. 2:10:09.960 --> 2:10:12.040 Excuse for using Title forty two. 2:10:12.560 --> 2:10:14.320 That I will link to the CBP data center in 2:10:14.360 --> 2:10:16.520 the notes so people can see Title forty two versus 2:10:16.520 --> 2:10:19.160 tight late over the last few years. As I pointed 2:10:19.200 --> 2:10:21.520 out last week, the US can also fund deportations of 2:10:21.520 --> 2:10:24.720 migrants further south, and it's done this at Panama. I've 2:10:24.840 --> 2:10:27.080 had a series from there last week. People hadn't listened 2:10:27.120 --> 2:10:29.480 to it. I would love them to do so, but 2:10:29.560 --> 2:10:31.160 the numbers that they've been able to achieve there are 2:10:31.160 --> 2:10:33.320 pretty low. And I don't think that's really going to 2:10:33.360 --> 2:10:38.600 meaningfully impact his target. So let's talk about what everyone 2:10:38.720 --> 2:10:41.360 is most afraid of, which is mass deportations of people 2:10:41.360 --> 2:10:42.680 who are already living in. 2:10:42.640 --> 2:10:43.560 The United States. 2:10:43.680 --> 2:10:43.880 Right. 2:10:44.520 --> 2:10:48.160 That is definitely what his right wing trolls have been 2:10:48.720 --> 2:10:51.560 sort of hyping up, certainly over the last few weeks, right, 2:10:51.640 --> 2:10:53.080 the idea that they are going to come to your 2:10:53.080 --> 2:10:56.440 house and find you if you're an undocumented person in 2:10:56.440 --> 2:10:59.880 the United States. So to talk about this, I want 2:10:59.920 --> 2:11:02.040 to talk about, first of all, like the real nuts 2:11:02.080 --> 2:11:04.280 and bolts of how he would be able, if he 2:11:04.320 --> 2:11:04.960 would be able to. 2:11:04.880 --> 2:11:05.320 Do this, right. 2:11:05.360 --> 2:11:07.400 And I draw very heavily here on a report by 2:11:07.440 --> 2:11:12.360 the American Immigration Council who did some calculations on the 2:11:12.400 --> 2:11:15.760 cost of a single ice detention, right, the cost of 2:11:15.920 --> 2:11:18.600 a single raid, the amount of agents that will be 2:11:18.640 --> 2:11:22.280 required to meet this kind of capacity. And there are 2:11:23.320 --> 2:11:25.480 two models that they use, and those are the models 2:11:25.520 --> 2:11:27.920 I think are most relevant. If we look at people 2:11:27.920 --> 2:11:30.760 who are in the United States without permanent legal status, 2:11:31.160 --> 2:11:33.920 we make an estimate for numbers, we're looking at about 2:11:33.920 --> 2:11:39.480 eleven million undocumented people. That's not going to be perfect, 2:11:39.560 --> 2:11:42.240 but if we use that as a ballpark, and then 2:11:42.320 --> 2:11:44.600 two point three million people who have entered since the 2:11:44.720 --> 2:11:47.840 end of Title forty two, and they're on various forms 2:11:47.840 --> 2:11:51.320 of bail or parole, a bond, and they don't have 2:11:51.640 --> 2:11:55.720 a permanent status here either rent, So we're looking at 2:11:55.720 --> 2:11:59.160 somewhere in the region of thirteen million. If Trump wanted 2:11:59.200 --> 2:12:01.360 to all of those. 2:12:01.080 --> 2:12:02.360 People right now. 2:12:03.040 --> 2:12:06.440 To do that, he would need to massively expand ICE 2:12:06.520 --> 2:12:11.280 detention facilities. About half of ICE's staff aren't Countrary to 2:12:11.280 --> 2:12:14.600 what you might believe about ICE kicking in people's doors 2:12:14.600 --> 2:12:18.040 and deporting them, half of ICE's staff work for something 2:12:18.160 --> 2:12:22.320 called homeod Security Investigations. It's not that those people don't 2:12:22.320 --> 2:12:26.120 do deportations. They do, but they mostly focus on human trafficking, 2:12:26.240 --> 2:12:30.600 drug trafficking, transnational crime. Now sometimes as people also do deportations. 2:12:30.640 --> 2:12:33.520 People might be familiar with the big HSI raids on 2:12:33.560 --> 2:12:36.200 certain employers who are employing a lot of undocumented people. 2:12:36.840 --> 2:12:40.680 Those still result in deportations, but that's not their primary tasking, 2:12:40.920 --> 2:12:46.240 and HSI has historically preferred not to do the deportation 2:12:46.480 --> 2:12:48.560 work because they feel that that makes it very hard 2:12:48.600 --> 2:12:50.959 for them to do the other work of like monitoring 2:12:51.040 --> 2:12:54.560 human and drug trafficking, because evidently migrants are going to 2:12:54.560 --> 2:12:56.920 be scared to go anywhere near HSI if they know 2:12:57.000 --> 2:12:59.440 that HSI could deport them, right, So they're not going. 2:12:59.320 --> 2:13:00.160 To talk to them. 2:13:00.600 --> 2:13:03.120 Now, it would be very easy for Trump to retask 2:13:03.240 --> 2:13:08.120 those those agents, right That would obviously undermine what it's 2:13:08.120 --> 2:13:11.120 done to prevent drug trafficking and human trafficking. Whether or 2:13:11.160 --> 2:13:14.920 not he cares is a question that's I think I 2:13:14.960 --> 2:13:17.080 probably have an answer for that. I guess up for 2:13:17.120 --> 2:13:22.240 debates somewhat. So Trump has already called in addition to 2:13:22.400 --> 2:13:26.840 potentially re equipping those HSI agents, he said he wants 2:13:26.880 --> 2:13:29.800 to employ ten thousand more Border Patrol agents. 2:13:29.880 --> 2:13:30.560 Right now. 2:13:30.840 --> 2:13:34.360 BP agents can do deportations, but it's not BP agents 2:13:34.400 --> 2:13:37.200 who are coming to your door in Chicago and coming 2:13:37.240 --> 2:13:39.959 after you, right that that's ICE Immigration and Customs enforcement. 2:13:40.560 --> 2:13:42.800 He's also said he wants to give Border plot agents 2:13:43.000 --> 2:13:46.160 a ten thousand dollars retention bonus and a ten percent raise. 2:13:47.040 --> 2:13:49.080 Just to put it in the perspective, there are twenty 2:13:49.080 --> 2:13:52.200 thousand BP agents right now, so that would be about 2:13:52.200 --> 2:13:53.280 a fifty percent increase. 2:13:53.360 --> 2:13:53.560 Right. 2:13:53.680 --> 2:13:56.880 This is not something he can do quickly. They need 2:13:56.920 --> 2:13:59.280 to go through the academy. They need to be recruited, trained, 2:13:59.720 --> 2:14:02.240 back and check, et cetera. Border Patrol has a lot 2:14:02.280 --> 2:14:05.280 of waivers right now, so you can, we can waive 2:14:05.320 --> 2:14:08.080 requirements that other law enforcement agencies would have few to 2:14:08.120 --> 2:14:09.720 work for them, if that makes sense, right, be it 2:14:09.760 --> 2:14:13.200 a GED or a college degree or another language or whatever. 2:14:13.720 --> 2:14:16.480 They are offering waivers a lot right now. They can 2:14:16.560 --> 2:14:19.200 increase that number of waivers to recruit more people, right, 2:14:19.280 --> 2:14:23.040 but that would still take a long time. So the 2:14:23.160 --> 2:14:27.360 estimate the American Immigration Council has is that to remove 2:14:27.440 --> 2:14:30.200 all of those thirteen million people in that sort of 2:14:30.240 --> 2:14:32.840 in the one mass deportation as opposed to a million 2:14:32.840 --> 2:14:36.200 people a year scenario, would require between two hundred and 2:14:36.200 --> 2:14:39.839 twenty and four hundred and nine thousand staff Jesus Christ. 2:14:40.600 --> 2:14:42.920 Yeah, yeah, that is a lot of people. 2:14:43.160 --> 2:14:45.920 So I mean, like, for comparison as to how many 2:14:46.000 --> 2:14:49.280 that actually is, the United States military active duties about 2:14:49.280 --> 2:14:49.960 a million people. 2:14:50.080 --> 2:14:52.560 Yes, that was exactly. That's a comparison. Not the Army, 2:14:53.000 --> 2:14:57.400 not the Navy, the military, yeah, like all of it. Yeah, 2:14:57.560 --> 2:15:00.200 this would put DHS at like substantially more personal than 2:15:00.240 --> 2:15:01.840 like the Marine Corps, right, like. 2:15:02.000 --> 2:15:04.360 Yeah, not that people don't want to do. It's just 2:15:04.440 --> 2:15:07.480 like it is. Actually, we've talked a lot about how 2:15:07.480 --> 2:15:09.840 there are not guard rails on Trump like there were 2:15:09.880 --> 2:15:11.440 last time. That is true, and that is a very 2:15:11.480 --> 2:15:14.400 realistic thing to like be worried about and scared about. 2:15:14.400 --> 2:15:17.120 But that we're not just talking about guard rails. We 2:15:17.200 --> 2:15:20.720 are talking about a logistical hurdle. It is not a 2:15:20.840 --> 2:15:25.880 simple or necessarily possible thing to make an agency like 2:15:25.920 --> 2:15:28.960 that that much larger and have it actually function Like 2:15:29.680 --> 2:15:32.160 just this is just physics we're talking about here. Yeah, 2:15:32.280 --> 2:15:35.040 it's the same with anything. If cool Zone suddenly received 2:15:35.080 --> 2:15:37.800 one hundred billion dollars from Jeff Bezos and he said, 2:15:37.840 --> 2:15:40.680 do anything you want with it, we could not scale 2:15:40.800 --> 2:15:43.320 up to half a million employees like. 2:15:45.120 --> 2:15:45.320 We have. 2:15:45.520 --> 2:15:48.400 We have absolutely no capacity to handle that. 2:15:49.520 --> 2:15:49.760 Yeah. 2:15:49.840 --> 2:15:51.920 Yeah, Like, I think what people have to remember is 2:15:51.960 --> 2:15:54.760 that every doual kicking ice agent needs to enable us, right. 2:15:54.760 --> 2:15:57.960 They need paid they need health insurance, they need human resources, 2:15:58.000 --> 2:15:58.879 they need training. 2:15:59.520 --> 2:16:01.400 This would make a very long time. 2:16:02.000 --> 2:16:04.400 Sorry, it's one point three million or so, Okay, I 2:16:04.440 --> 2:16:06.400 think it's a little less. That's twenty seventeen data, so 2:16:06.680 --> 2:16:09.240 it's probably as closer to a million now but slightly 2:16:09.280 --> 2:16:10.320 over a million, but. 2:16:10.280 --> 2:16:12.480 This is close to that's close to half, right, Yeah, 2:16:12.520 --> 2:16:13.960 that's in addition to what they already have. 2:16:14.080 --> 2:16:16.280 Yeah, the four hundred and ninety plus whatever they have. 2:16:16.760 --> 2:16:19.600 It would also, of course mean like substantially increasing their 2:16:19.600 --> 2:16:24.760 investigative capacity, because most deportations right now, when ICE arrest 2:16:24.840 --> 2:16:28.000 someone happen when someone else has already arrested that person. 2:16:28.880 --> 2:16:31.440 So like the person who's in detention federally or on 2:16:31.440 --> 2:16:33.560 a state level for something else that they did and 2:16:33.600 --> 2:16:36.840 they're undocumented, that's when ICE can take them and deport them, right, 2:16:37.080 --> 2:16:40.640 So they'd have to also increase their ability to search 2:16:40.680 --> 2:16:43.320 out and find people, not saying they can't, but you 2:16:43.400 --> 2:16:47.080 can't take you know, fucking Tim Poole, bring him into ICE. 2:16:47.480 --> 2:16:49.600 He's not going to instantly know how to find people 2:16:49.640 --> 2:16:52.280 where to find people, right, So like this, this will 2:16:52.320 --> 2:16:52.760 take time. 2:16:52.800 --> 2:16:54.119 There is a practical. 2:16:53.680 --> 2:16:56.560 Constraint on him doing this, even if there aren't other 2:16:56.640 --> 2:17:01.480 constraints within the balance of powers. So Stephen Miller, dude 2:17:01.520 --> 2:17:03.400 with the giant head, I'm sorry, but you're going to 2:17:03.480 --> 2:17:05.680 have to be more specific when we talk about like 2:17:05.800 --> 2:17:08.199 conservatives who are about to come into power, who have. 2:17:08.200 --> 2:17:09.560 Like a weirdly huge head. 2:17:09.760 --> 2:17:10.240 Yeah. 2:17:10.440 --> 2:17:14.280 Okay, that's like, find me a Californian who has strong 2:17:14.320 --> 2:17:15.359 opinions on gluten. 2:17:18.080 --> 2:17:20.880 Yeah, that's me. I'm a pro glue yeah. Yeah. 2:17:20.879 --> 2:17:24.080 So Stephen Miller is he is the guy who's crafted 2:17:24.080 --> 2:17:26.720 a lot of Trump's nefarious border policies. 2:17:26.800 --> 2:17:26.959 Right. 2:17:27.000 --> 2:17:30.680 It was Miller who who sook out Title forty two. 2:17:31.280 --> 2:17:33.039 And I want to talk about this a bit later. 2:17:33.560 --> 2:17:35.920 One thing that Miller did effectively, I don't want to 2:17:35.959 --> 2:17:38.920 say well, because it was objectively horrible. But one thing 2:17:38.920 --> 2:17:41.680 that Miller was good at was finding this obscure piece 2:17:41.720 --> 2:17:45.360 of public health law and mobilizing it against migrants. 2:17:45.560 --> 2:17:45.720 Right. 2:17:45.920 --> 2:17:48.480 I think if you'd spoken to me in twenty fifteen 2:17:48.520 --> 2:17:50.400 and said what do you think Trump's going to do 2:17:50.400 --> 2:17:52.199 against migrants, I wouldn't have said, Oh, it'll be Title 2:17:52.240 --> 2:17:54.160 forty two, the United States Code, you know, that regulates 2:17:54.200 --> 2:17:56.959 public health. He or people within his team were very 2:17:56.959 --> 2:18:00.280 effective at finding that and using that effective and the 2:18:00.280 --> 2:18:02.520 Biden administration kept it for three years after the Trump 2:18:02.520 --> 2:18:06.199 administration did it for one year, Right, And so Miller 2:18:06.240 --> 2:18:10.640 could find some niche kind of law. What he wants 2:18:10.680 --> 2:18:15.080 to do is use the National Guard from cooperative states, right, yeah, 2:18:15.120 --> 2:18:18.920 and to use a national Guard from cooperative states in 2:18:19.160 --> 2:18:22.240 states that are not cooperative and where local law enforcement 2:18:22.280 --> 2:18:23.080 would not cooperate. 2:18:23.160 --> 2:18:23.320 Right. 2:18:23.440 --> 2:18:26.880 So, some quote unquote sanctuary states, I think there's probably 2:18:26.879 --> 2:18:30.560 an overstatement. They don't in theory refer and documented people 2:18:30.560 --> 2:18:34.320 they arrest to ICE for deportation. Right now, What federal 2:18:34.360 --> 2:18:37.080 fusion centers do is allow for that even if it 2:18:37.280 --> 2:18:41.160 is a sanctuary state. Actually, but in theoretical terms, a 2:18:41.200 --> 2:18:44.440 sanctuary state would not at least contact ICE about every 2:18:44.600 --> 2:18:46.440 undocumented person they're arrested. 2:18:46.520 --> 2:18:46.680 Right. 2:18:46.760 --> 2:18:50.200 So Miller's plan is to use the National Guard. Again, like, 2:18:50.280 --> 2:18:54.039 that's not what the National Guard does right now. They're 2:18:54.040 --> 2:18:57.120 not really trained up for doing that either, Right. I've 2:18:57.400 --> 2:19:02.119 seen plenty of National Guard folks on the border. I 2:19:02.400 --> 2:19:05.160 it's a bunch of scared eighteen year olds, right who 2:19:05.200 --> 2:19:06.680 are trying to get money through robat And I have 2:19:06.840 --> 2:19:09.160 met Texas National Guide. 2:19:09.760 --> 2:19:10.920 They're kids. They're kids. 2:19:11.200 --> 2:19:11.520 Yeah. 2:19:11.560 --> 2:19:15.000 Now, to be fair, that's not saying they're like innocent 2:19:15.160 --> 2:19:18.119 or inherent Like every group of soldiers who has done 2:19:18.160 --> 2:19:21.879 any good or bad things, and often but usually both 2:19:21.920 --> 2:19:24.560 at the same time, it's a bunch of scared eighteen 2:19:24.640 --> 2:19:27.280 year old kids. Yes, that's been the case for ten 2:19:27.400 --> 2:19:30.720 thousand years. Yeah, that's true. 2:19:30.760 --> 2:19:34.160 Anytime you have conflict reporting, you it's always shocking how 2:19:34.200 --> 2:19:34.840 young people are. 2:19:35.040 --> 2:19:37.320 It's always just like, oh, okay, all wars are fought 2:19:37.360 --> 2:19:40.000 by children. There's no non child soldiers, with the exception 2:19:40.160 --> 2:19:41.520 of I mean, that is the weird thing about the 2:19:41.600 --> 2:19:44.039 Ukraine War, right yet, Like I remember the first time 2:19:44.080 --> 2:19:45.640 I wound up at the front there, it was like, oh, 2:19:45.720 --> 2:19:49.240 this is actually it is actually old men fighting this war, 2:19:49.280 --> 2:19:51.959 old men who repeatedly told me it's either me or 2:19:52.000 --> 2:19:54.400 my kid shows up here. And I already fucking lost 2:19:54.400 --> 2:19:57.040 my soul in Afghanistan, Yes, like I literally had that 2:19:57.120 --> 2:19:57.920 interview with people. 2:19:58.400 --> 2:20:00.720 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's crazy to me people who are 2:20:00.720 --> 2:20:03.160 in Afghanistan and fighting again. Yeah, I mean I think 2:20:03.160 --> 2:20:06.000 those guys are probably out now. There's uptop back fifty. Yeah, 2:20:06.000 --> 2:20:07.960 I think twenty twenty four, so it's forty years later. 2:20:08.280 --> 2:20:09.520 I'm sure they're too old now. 2:20:09.640 --> 2:20:12.960 But Robert talking of being too old, I unfortunately I 2:20:12.959 --> 2:20:16.400 am not too old to be obliged to transition to advertisement. 2:20:16.440 --> 2:20:17.360 So that's what we're going to do. 2:20:17.640 --> 2:20:19.720 You're never too old for that. James and in fact, 2:20:19.720 --> 2:20:22.360 the older you get. It's kind of like how if 2:20:22.360 --> 2:20:25.360 you reread Moby Dick at different points in your life, 2:20:25.400 --> 2:20:28.600 it's a completely different novel, every ten years, different book. 2:20:29.040 --> 2:20:31.800 The same thing is true with Ulysses, and the same 2:20:31.840 --> 2:20:34.640 thing is true with these advertisements. That's right, Save them, 2:20:34.760 --> 2:20:37.520 record them on your home device, and every couple of 2:20:37.520 --> 2:20:40.160 months listen and you'll you'll learn something new from jumpa 2:20:40.160 --> 2:20:41.400 Casino every time. 2:20:52.120 --> 2:20:54.200 All Right, we're back, and I hope you've downloaded that 2:20:54.240 --> 2:20:56.760 chump of casino at for later in the event of 2:20:56.760 --> 2:20:59.040 a great down scenario, you could have a whole library 2:20:59.040 --> 2:21:03.439 of those to listen to. So talking of obscure legislations, 2:21:03.440 --> 2:21:06.280 we did right. Trump and his team have mentioned this 2:21:06.400 --> 2:21:09.960 thing called the Alien Enemies Act. It sounds like alien 2:21:10.000 --> 2:21:12.119 Ant Farm, but it's not in any way related. 2:21:12.160 --> 2:21:14.440 Sadly, not nearly as good as for one thing, it's 2:21:14.480 --> 2:21:17.080 cover of smooth Criminal, terrible, terrible. 2:21:17.160 --> 2:21:20.400 Yeah, no, nowhere near the same standard. That's a joke 2:21:20.480 --> 2:21:22.000 for people who are over thirty. 2:21:22.320 --> 2:21:24.920 Yes, anyone who tries to dance to that alien Ant 2:21:24.959 --> 2:21:27.200 Farm song today not only has to think about the 2:21:27.200 --> 2:21:29.680 fact that Michael Jackson was definitely a pedophile, but also 2:21:29.720 --> 2:21:31.879 their needs no longer work. 2:21:32.280 --> 2:21:43.800 Yeah, it's a loseless just sadly shuffling along, properly moonwalking 2:21:43.840 --> 2:21:46.760 while crying, uh, taking iberprofen. No. I was at a 2:21:46.760 --> 2:21:49.760 street light show in Portland that was all millennials and 2:21:49.840 --> 2:21:52.360 every time like the pit was crazy, but also it 2:21:52.480 --> 2:21:55.360 sounded like a cement mixer when everybody's knees got going, 2:21:58.600 --> 2:22:02.280 doling out hyberprofen and the way out. So you're going 2:22:02.320 --> 2:22:07.840 to need this tomorrows. So the Alien Enemies Act, it 2:22:07.879 --> 2:22:10.120 hasn't been used since the United States used it in 2:22:10.200 --> 2:22:13.280 the Second World War for in tournament camps, right, which, 2:22:14.000 --> 2:22:15.800 at least for many of US, is are part of 2:22:15.920 --> 2:22:18.840 national shame. I guess like a pretty terrible fucking thing 2:22:18.879 --> 2:22:21.680 that United States did. Obviously, for some folks in the 2:22:21.680 --> 2:22:24.400 Trump administration, this is something that they're kind of aspiring to. 2:22:24.560 --> 2:22:27.200 I guess Trump has said that he would like to 2:22:27.280 --> 2:22:30.160 use this to deport gang members. That's not really what 2:22:30.320 --> 2:22:33.920 it's for. And like even sources within DHS have pointed 2:22:33.920 --> 2:22:37.640 out that they would have to prove that these migrants 2:22:37.640 --> 2:22:40.760 were sent by a foreign government, right, or someone that 2:22:40.800 --> 2:22:43.240 the US is at war with. This is going to 2:22:43.320 --> 2:22:45.760 be hard, because, like if we look at Venezuelans, who 2:22:45.760 --> 2:22:48.200 are representing a larger and larger proportion of migrants since 2:22:48.200 --> 2:22:51.720 the elections there, they will actively shit talk the government 2:22:51.800 --> 2:22:55.560 of their country at the first opportunity. I have met hundreds, 2:22:55.560 --> 2:22:59.200 if not thousands of Venezuelan migrants in California and in 2:22:59.240 --> 2:23:02.680 the Dallian Gap, and yeah, you're not going to find 2:23:02.680 --> 2:23:05.199 people who you can plausibly say were sent. 2:23:05.080 --> 2:23:06.119 By Maduro that way. 2:23:06.600 --> 2:23:10.240 Yeah, but Miller's pretty good at finding these obscure laws 2:23:10.440 --> 2:23:13.240 and ways of doing things. So we would be fully 2:23:13.280 --> 2:23:15.360 to write this off entirely. But I don't think that 2:23:15.400 --> 2:23:18.440 will make up the bulk of these mass deportations. So 2:23:18.840 --> 2:23:21.040 I want to go to that American Immigration Council report, 2:23:21.080 --> 2:23:23.560 which our link in the show notes. Right, assuming a 2:23:23.640 --> 2:23:26.119 million deportations a year, which is what jd. Vance said 2:23:26.160 --> 2:23:28.720 to The New York Times, that's the sort of steady 2:23:28.760 --> 2:23:32.120 deportation scenario as opposed to the mass deportation of thirteen 2:23:32.120 --> 2:23:37.440 million people scenario, which a steady one is is more 2:23:37.480 --> 2:23:41.240 realistic in terms of practicality. Right, the cost of that, 2:23:41.440 --> 2:23:44.480 assuming that twenty percent of undocumented people decided to leave 2:23:44.520 --> 2:23:47.560 on their own would be about eighty eight billion a year, 2:23:47.879 --> 2:23:49.000 which is a large amount of money. 2:23:49.120 --> 2:23:50.520 We'll talk in a little bit about what you could 2:23:50.520 --> 2:23:51.240 get with that money. 2:23:51.360 --> 2:23:54.720 A one off massed deportation would cost about three hundred 2:23:54.720 --> 2:23:58.840 and fifteen billion. The detention costs alone for that one 2:23:58.920 --> 2:24:02.280 off massed deportation of eleven to thirteen million people would 2:24:02.320 --> 2:24:05.840 be one hundred and sixty seven point eight billion dollars, 2:24:06.440 --> 2:24:10.680 which is probably why private prison group geo groups stock 2:24:10.760 --> 2:24:13.840 sawed this week. Right if Trump wants to deport people, 2:24:14.160 --> 2:24:17.600 the average deportee is detained for fifty nine days before 2:24:17.600 --> 2:24:21.720 they're deported, and so they are going to massively have 2:24:21.840 --> 2:24:26.039 to increase their capacity. Right now, their current detention contract 2:24:26.160 --> 2:24:29.240 includes a minimum of twenty nine thousand, seven hundred and 2:24:29.280 --> 2:24:32.840 ninety beds between like increases and other facilities they have 2:24:32.879 --> 2:24:35.680 access to, and early twenty twenty four, accralling to the 2:24:35.720 --> 2:24:39.440 American Immigration Council, they detained thirty nine thousand people. Astute 2:24:39.480 --> 2:24:42.520 listeners will notice that eleven million and thirty nine thousand 2:24:42.520 --> 2:24:46.800 are quite quite desparate as numbers go. So, ah, yeah, 2:24:47.600 --> 2:24:51.000 I mean you're talking about a huge percentage of Like 2:24:51.240 --> 2:24:53.440 we'll get into this later, But in California, Texas, and 2:24:53.440 --> 2:24:55.840 Florida it's between five and six percent of the population 2:24:55.920 --> 2:25:00.600 are undocumented. Right, you're talking about building prison city. If 2:25:00.640 --> 2:25:03.360 you were to detain that many people, then one fell 2:25:03.400 --> 2:25:07.520 swoop Again. That takes time. But in this case it's 2:25:07.600 --> 2:25:10.160 private sector actors like Geogroup. They can tend to move 2:25:10.200 --> 2:25:14.080 a little bit faster. Right, So to put that cost 2:25:14.400 --> 2:25:16.880 in terms of things that the government could do with 2:25:16.920 --> 2:25:20.520 the money instead, Right, a decade of one million deportations 2:25:20.560 --> 2:25:24.519 a year means foregoing forty four hundred and fifty elementary 2:25:24.520 --> 2:25:27.560 schools or two point nine million new homes, or funding 2:25:27.560 --> 2:25:30.920 the head Start program for seventy nine years. A single 2:25:30.959 --> 2:25:33.720 year of mass deportation would cost nearly twice the National 2:25:33.800 --> 2:25:37.360 Institute of Health's annual budget, or eighteen times a global 2:25:37.400 --> 2:25:41.680 annual expenditure on cancer research. So I guess that's shit 2:25:41.720 --> 2:25:44.959 that we could have instead. But that's not all because 2:25:45.120 --> 2:25:48.840 undocumented households, contrary to what you might have heard, paid taxes. 2:25:49.160 --> 2:25:54.200 And if we deported every undocumented person in the United States, 2:25:54.480 --> 2:25:57.560 we look at twenty twenty two numbers, undocumented households paid 2:25:57.600 --> 2:26:00.200 forty six point eight billion in federal taxes and nine 2:26:00.240 --> 2:26:02.720 point three billion in state and local taxes. That's a 2:26:02.840 --> 2:26:08.640 huge amount of tax revenue forgone right, absolutely, yeah, that again, 2:26:09.200 --> 2:26:11.680 that won't be the end of it, because some industries 2:26:11.879 --> 2:26:16.760 like construction and agriculture rely heavily on undocumented labor. And 2:26:16.800 --> 2:26:18.840 if you're worried about the cost of your groceries, now 2:26:19.120 --> 2:26:21.840 if people voted for Donald Trump, because that egg costs more, 2:26:22.560 --> 2:26:26.160 shit will cost an awful lot more if we deport the. 2:26:26.160 --> 2:26:28.080 Undocumented people working in agriculture. 2:26:28.160 --> 2:26:32.879 Right, sectors of that industry do not function economically without 2:26:33.000 --> 2:26:36.280 underpaid migrant labor. And this is something that migrants are 2:26:36.360 --> 2:26:39.320 very aware of. Actually I broadcast interview with one of 2:26:39.360 --> 2:26:40.959 them last week. But they know that they will be 2:26:41.040 --> 2:26:44.360 underpaid because they're undocumented, but they still think that that's 2:26:44.360 --> 2:26:47.680 worth it for them to be safe. Right, So for 2:26:47.720 --> 2:26:50.400 going that, I don't think Trump has not proposed a 2:26:50.440 --> 2:26:53.160 solution to this, right like these sort of this long 2:26:53.200 --> 2:26:55.600 form thinking is not what he does certainly in his speeches, 2:26:55.640 --> 2:26:58.879 but that would have a massive impact on the economy. 2:26:59.200 --> 2:27:02.320 What he would also certainly need to do is persuade 2:27:02.320 --> 2:27:05.199 the countries that these migrants come from to take them back, 2:27:05.840 --> 2:27:09.160 and that has historically been something that has been extremely difficult. 2:27:09.280 --> 2:27:10.760 The State Department. 2:27:10.680 --> 2:27:16.400 Doesn't see the sort of process of persuading people to 2:27:17.080 --> 2:27:20.680 accept migrants as really within its remit, and it certainly 2:27:20.800 --> 2:27:23.520 sort of bristle that having to do this the last 2:27:23.520 --> 2:27:27.440 Trump administration. I think a mass deportation like this it 2:27:27.480 --> 2:27:30.280 would trigger some nations refusing to take people back, for instance, 2:27:30.280 --> 2:27:33.400 to Venezuela. Right, Venezuela is already not taking people back 2:27:33.400 --> 2:27:36.240 from Panama. You at the US funds deportations for Panama. 2:27:36.640 --> 2:27:39.440 Venezuela and Panama have ceased relations after the election in 2:27:39.520 --> 2:27:43.280 Venezuela and Panama rightly claiming that that was a fraudulent election, 2:27:43.800 --> 2:27:46.039 and as a result, Panama is now looking for a 2:27:46.040 --> 2:27:49.320 third country to deport these people too. If the US 2:27:49.320 --> 2:27:53.119 attempted to deport potentially millions people to Venezuela again, there's 2:27:53.160 --> 2:27:56.200 no guarantee that Madua has to accept them back. 2:27:56.480 --> 2:27:56.640 Right. 2:27:57.000 --> 2:27:59.039 I can hear a lot of people saying, how is 2:27:59.080 --> 2:28:00.359 that allowed. 2:28:00.520 --> 2:28:01.960 To not accept take them back? 2:28:02.240 --> 2:28:03.720 Yeah? 2:28:03.800 --> 2:28:07.880 I mean if international law is like it's a unicorn, 2:28:07.959 --> 2:28:09.520 Like you know, if everyone agrees that they see it, 2:28:09.520 --> 2:28:11.480 and they see it, but it's not real, right, So 2:28:11.680 --> 2:28:14.920 like who is going to make them? I guess, like, 2:28:14.920 --> 2:28:17.840 like whether it's allowed or not, it's kind of immaterial. 2:28:17.959 --> 2:28:20.360 Madua is not allowed to steal the election, right, you're 2:28:20.360 --> 2:28:23.160 not allowed to abuse human rights. Migrants are allowed to 2:28:23.160 --> 2:28:25.600 cross any country they want and claim asylum anywhere that 2:28:25.640 --> 2:28:29.360 they feel safe. But like here we are so Yeah, 2:28:29.360 --> 2:28:31.720 in theory a country should accept its citizens back and 2:28:31.840 --> 2:28:32.680 practice will it? 2:28:33.360 --> 2:28:34.520 I don't know, certainly. 2:28:34.560 --> 2:28:36.680 It becomes like a bigger issue when you have millions 2:28:36.720 --> 2:28:38.600 of people, right, And if we have millions of people 2:28:39.280 --> 2:28:43.680 deported back, then like if we can't deport them, where 2:28:43.680 --> 2:28:45.240 are we going to detain them? That gets back to 2:28:45.280 --> 2:28:49.800 the cost of detentions, right, talking of costs should probably 2:28:49.840 --> 2:28:53.080 cover the costs of our podcasting set up here by 2:28:53.160 --> 2:29:09.920 pivoting to adverts again, Yeah, we are back, and for 2:29:10.000 --> 2:29:12.440 the final segment here, I want to talk about who 2:29:12.640 --> 2:29:16.920 Trump could pursue with these deportations. Right, there's two major groups. 2:29:17.160 --> 2:29:19.200 The obvious starting point would be the two point three 2:29:19.200 --> 2:29:22.199 million people who cross between January of twenty twenty three 2:29:22.280 --> 2:29:25.480 and April of this year before Biden signed his Asylum band. 2:29:25.879 --> 2:29:26.480 To be prescribed. 2:29:26.560 --> 2:29:28.840 That to two million two hundred and sixty four eight 2:29:28.920 --> 2:29:34.279 hundred and thirty. Those people don't have permanent immigration status. 2:29:34.320 --> 2:29:36.200 Those are the people who you've heard from on this 2:29:36.280 --> 2:29:39.120 podcast who are in cucumber right, the people who we've 2:29:39.160 --> 2:29:42.680 interviewed for the last year and a bit now. They 2:29:43.080 --> 2:29:45.640 have various immigration status, but none of them are permanent. 2:29:45.680 --> 2:29:48.400 None of them have permanent residency. All of them are 2:29:48.440 --> 2:29:51.320 obviously registered right. They normally have a notice to appear 2:29:51.320 --> 2:29:54.440 in court, which would make them easy to find and 2:29:54.640 --> 2:29:57.000 potentially easy to deport. 2:29:57.360 --> 2:29:59.039 The other group of people. 2:29:59.360 --> 2:30:01.800 Are the documented migrant who have been here for longer 2:30:01.800 --> 2:30:04.240 than that. Many of them have most have been in 2:30:04.240 --> 2:30:06.840 the country for more than a decade. They're working, They 2:30:06.879 --> 2:30:11.160 often have citizen children right because of birthright citizenship. Most 2:30:11.160 --> 2:30:13.840 of the pay taxes. Most of these people have some 2:30:14.080 --> 2:30:17.560 form of revocable legal status, so that might be something 2:30:17.560 --> 2:30:19.840 called a temporary protected status. We talked about a temporary 2:30:19.840 --> 2:30:22.520 protected status last week as well, but it applies to 2:30:22.560 --> 2:30:24.640 people who are already in the country when it's granted 2:30:25.200 --> 2:30:27.240 and it allows them to stay for a designated period 2:30:27.240 --> 2:30:29.320 of time while it's not safe to deport them to 2:30:29.360 --> 2:30:31.480 their home country. Let's say there's been a war or 2:30:31.480 --> 2:30:34.640 a natural disaster, right, it's not safe to deport them, 2:30:35.000 --> 2:30:37.640 but it gets renewed two months before the end of 2:30:37.640 --> 2:30:40.360 that period. Let's say it renews every eighteen months, and 2:30:40.400 --> 2:30:41.800 you find out two months before the end of that 2:30:41.840 --> 2:30:43.920 period if it's not going to be renewed. If they 2:30:43.920 --> 2:30:47.720 didn't renew those TPSS, those people could either change status 2:30:48.440 --> 2:30:49.840 or would become undocumented. 2:30:50.200 --> 2:30:50.320 Right. 2:30:50.680 --> 2:30:53.440 The TPS has existed since nineteen ninety and they're about 2:30:53.440 --> 2:30:55.800 eight hundred and sixty thousand people on TPS right now. 2:30:56.520 --> 2:30:58.680 The other major category that people will probably be more 2:30:58.720 --> 2:31:01.520 familiar with are Dreamer, people who came to the United 2:31:01.560 --> 2:31:05.560 States as children and are undocumented, but they benefit from 2:31:05.560 --> 2:31:08.680 something called Darker Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, and about 2:31:08.720 --> 2:31:11.920 eight hundred and thirty four thousand young people benefit from this, 2:31:12.040 --> 2:31:14.840 which allows them to receive a renewable two year period 2:31:14.840 --> 2:31:18.640 of deferred action from deportation. Trump did try and go 2:31:18.720 --> 2:31:22.160 after this in his previous term in twenty eighteen. He 2:31:22.280 --> 2:31:25.440 ended up in a two year court battle which sort 2:31:25.480 --> 2:31:29.520 of finished up with NAACP versus Trump, and that ran 2:31:29.560 --> 2:31:32.279 out the clock on his term and Biden reinstated Darker, 2:31:32.480 --> 2:31:35.440 but again because people have to register for darker, their 2:31:35.520 --> 2:31:39.560 whereabouts are easier for someone like ICE to potentially find. 2:31:40.240 --> 2:31:43.320 Then after that, we have people who entered without being detected. 2:31:43.959 --> 2:31:47.720 We have people who overstayed their visas. Those people might 2:31:47.720 --> 2:31:51.400 be harder to find. The model of the undocumented migrant 2:31:51.400 --> 2:31:53.480 that people have in their head comes across the border 2:31:53.520 --> 2:31:57.160 with carpet shoes, sneaks past a BP checkpoint, and then 2:31:57.280 --> 2:32:01.439 lives in the United States without ever encountering migration authorities. 2:32:01.480 --> 2:32:04.840 That's actually not the majority model, but those people do exist, 2:32:04.920 --> 2:32:08.000 and that they would be harder for ICE to find potentially. 2:32:09.040 --> 2:32:11.480 Trump is also vowed to end parole programs that allow 2:32:11.560 --> 2:32:14.360 Ukrainians and Afghans to enter the USA and work. I 2:32:14.360 --> 2:32:16.680 would think that some of those would be pretty unpopular. 2:32:16.720 --> 2:32:19.400 People have been much more broadly in solidarity with Ukrainian 2:32:19.440 --> 2:32:21.680 migrants than they have with other migrants in other parts 2:32:21.680 --> 2:32:24.360 of the world. They'll say, but it would be an 2:32:24.360 --> 2:32:25.800 easy one again for him to end. 2:32:25.879 --> 2:32:26.080 Right. 2:32:26.920 --> 2:32:28.640 The last thing he's really said he wanted to do 2:32:29.360 --> 2:32:31.599 is to end birthright citizenship. 2:32:32.120 --> 2:32:32.320 Yep. 2:32:33.200 --> 2:32:37.000 That is I spoke about this before in our Agenda 2:32:37.040 --> 2:32:41.000 forty seven episodes. That's pretty clear in the fourteenth Amendment. 2:32:41.520 --> 2:32:43.560 They have some kind of fringes on the flag. Legal 2:32:43.600 --> 2:32:46.640 theory around this, but like I would think that that 2:32:46.680 --> 2:32:49.120 will require a constitutional amendment, but who knows, because he 2:32:49.200 --> 2:32:51.680 might have both houses and the Supreme Court on his side, 2:32:51.720 --> 2:32:54.000 so he might just be able to get away with 2:32:54.080 --> 2:32:57.440 doing that. This obviously wouldn't rescind citizenship from people who 2:32:57.480 --> 2:33:01.440 have previously have said children who are citizens. Talking of 2:33:01.520 --> 2:33:03.760 people have children as citizens. They are about four million 2:33:03.840 --> 2:33:06.879 mixed status families in the United States, so this deportation 2:33:06.920 --> 2:33:10.640 plan could potentially separate parents from children and children from parents, 2:33:10.920 --> 2:33:13.039 children from their older parents who they take care of. 2:33:13.480 --> 2:33:16.680 It could destroy these families, right, Deportations always destroy families. 2:33:16.680 --> 2:33:20.199 I've seen this happening myself, and it's horrible. The states 2:33:20.240 --> 2:33:22.960 where this would most likely happen the states of the 2:33:23.040 --> 2:33:28.360 highest documented population at California, Texas, and Florida. California thus 2:33:28.440 --> 2:33:32.119 far retains its sanctuary policies. Texas of Florida very much 2:33:32.200 --> 2:33:35.200 do not, right, and so those would be the states 2:33:35.200 --> 2:33:37.359 where they will be the highest risk of this happening. 2:33:38.080 --> 2:33:40.640 That's between five and six percent of their population, and 2:33:40.680 --> 2:33:45.320 that's kind of where I want to finish up today. 2:33:45.320 --> 2:33:47.000 I've got some more stuff I wanted to say about 2:33:47.040 --> 2:33:48.920 his border policy, but I think I'm going to say 2:33:48.920 --> 2:33:52.160 that for another episode, because the border and immigration are 2:33:52.160 --> 2:33:55.200 different things, and I think sometimes this is something that 2:33:55.280 --> 2:33:58.680 a lot of legacy media doesn't understand. They have immigration 2:33:58.800 --> 2:34:02.000 reporters who report immigrant law, the stuff I've spoken about today, 2:34:02.560 --> 2:34:04.680 but the border is not somewhere that they go and 2:34:04.720 --> 2:34:06.800 it's not something that they cover very well. If you've 2:34:06.840 --> 2:34:08.320 been listening for a while, you'll know that I've spent 2:34:08.400 --> 2:34:10.400 a lot of time at the border on the ground, 2:34:10.480 --> 2:34:13.520 in the mountains, in the desert, and that's something that 2:34:13.959 --> 2:34:16.520 we've covered in great depth here, and I'm pretty happy 2:34:16.560 --> 2:34:18.600 that listeners have a really complete understanding of it. 2:34:19.320 --> 2:34:24.200 Would California actually be able to enforce being a sanctuary 2:34:24.280 --> 2:34:24.840 state or. 2:34:24.800 --> 2:34:28.320 Now, yes, in the it's law enforcement doesn't have to 2:34:28.600 --> 2:34:32.959 call ice right, the federal government cannot compel local law 2:34:33.080 --> 2:34:35.080 enforcement to state law enforcement to do its work. 2:34:35.120 --> 2:34:36.640 That is very well established. 2:34:37.040 --> 2:34:40.360 Again, nothing's off the cards when you have both Houses 2:34:40.400 --> 2:34:44.800 of Congress and the Supreme Court. But again that would 2:34:44.800 --> 2:34:47.400 take time and it would take a court battle. So 2:34:47.520 --> 2:34:50.920 what they can do now is not report those people, right, 2:34:51.000 --> 2:34:52.800 not say hey, we got someone here. He came in 2:34:52.879 --> 2:34:56.080 because we found him with a bag of weed. He's undocumented. 2:34:56.600 --> 2:34:59.320 You know, he was driving thirty five and a thirty 2:34:59.400 --> 2:35:02.360 he's undocked, invented. These are things that people who are 2:35:02.400 --> 2:35:05.360 undocumented have to worry about, right Like, for those of 2:35:05.360 --> 2:35:08.240 you who don't have undocumented folks in your life, Like 2:35:09.160 --> 2:35:13.400 it's a speeding ticket, it's the most minor in it's 2:35:13.440 --> 2:35:15.680 not paying a parking ticket and ending up in court, 2:35:15.720 --> 2:35:18.840 right Like, this shit is so minor to so many people, 2:35:19.000 --> 2:35:23.280 but it could tear someone's life apart. And so I 2:35:23.320 --> 2:35:26.640 want to like finish up by saying that, yeah, Texas 2:35:26.640 --> 2:35:29.160 and Florida are going to be the places where we 2:35:29.200 --> 2:35:31.480 see this. Yeah, five percent of the population is a 2:35:31.560 --> 2:35:35.640 large amount of your population. If he even attempts half 2:35:35.680 --> 2:35:39.000 of that, people are going to see this. It's going 2:35:39.040 --> 2:35:41.760 to happen in your community. Now, I'm not saying he will, 2:35:42.320 --> 2:35:45.240 but if it does, Like the time to start organizing 2:35:45.280 --> 2:35:47.880 to protect people you care about is now. Be that 2:35:47.920 --> 2:35:50.560 with their nations, to groups like Alo Torolalo, who have 2:35:50.640 --> 2:35:53.320 successfully sued the Trump and buy An administrations for my 2:35:53.360 --> 2:35:58.000 goods rights. Be that with organizing such that your undocumented 2:35:58.040 --> 2:35:59.960 friends don't end up in court because they couldn't pay 2:36:00.120 --> 2:36:02.720 parking ticket, right, even if that means you paying someone 2:36:02.760 --> 2:36:04.800 at giving someone fifty bucks for a parking ticket, so 2:36:04.800 --> 2:36:06.800 that it doesn't ruin the rest of their life. 2:36:07.440 --> 2:36:11.240 Whatever it is. The way that we. 2:36:11.200 --> 2:36:14.480 Prevent this is through strong communities. We have to start 2:36:14.520 --> 2:36:16.400 putting those now. I know we've said this a lot 2:36:16.440 --> 2:36:17.879 this week, but we're probably going to say a lot 2:36:17.879 --> 2:36:20.440 for the next three months. Like a lot of people 2:36:20.440 --> 2:36:23.560 have reached out to me since the Tramp election, which 2:36:23.680 --> 2:36:26.920 was two days but also like seven years ago, because 2:36:26.920 --> 2:36:29.480 that's how time works, saying that they want to participate 2:36:29.480 --> 2:36:33.000 in mutil aid at the border. I would love for 2:36:33.040 --> 2:36:34.560 you to come and join us, of course it would. 2:36:34.640 --> 2:36:36.480 And I think people have heard a lot about our 2:36:36.560 --> 2:36:38.520 mutual aid setup because of something I do a lot, 2:36:38.600 --> 2:36:40.520 but that I don't want you to come here and 2:36:40.560 --> 2:36:42.440 do mutual aid tourism, like I want you to come 2:36:42.480 --> 2:36:44.680 here and understand and learn what we do and then 2:36:44.720 --> 2:36:48.520 do it yourself, or just do it yourself, like there 2:36:48.600 --> 2:36:51.080 was a time when this didn't exist and people started 2:36:51.080 --> 2:36:54.160 it right, and you can start it to And I'm 2:36:54.200 --> 2:36:57.000 not going to tell you, like the specifics of what 2:36:57.040 --> 2:36:58.360 I think you should do, because I don't know. I 2:36:58.400 --> 2:37:00.560 don't know what the legal environment will be. I don't 2:37:00.560 --> 2:37:02.480 know what the legal environment will be in your state. 2:37:03.200 --> 2:37:07.480 But whatever the legal environment is, it will be better 2:37:07.879 --> 2:37:11.040 if we have strong and cohesive communities to look after 2:37:11.080 --> 2:37:14.240 one another. Right, If you're looking to donate your money, 2:37:14.320 --> 2:37:18.080 I've said it before, ALOTLAO where I would suggest it, 2:37:18.080 --> 2:37:20.680 it's a L O t R L A d O 2:37:21.240 --> 2:37:25.080 dot org. They've done really valuable work in defending migrants 2:37:25.160 --> 2:37:28.119 rights in court. Haitian Bridge Alliance would be another great 2:37:28.160 --> 2:37:28.840 example of that. 2:37:29.080 --> 2:37:29.800 Will you link that? 2:37:30.360 --> 2:37:32.240 I'll put them both in the show notes. Yeah. 2:37:32.280 --> 2:37:34.280 But the way we confront this is together. 2:37:34.920 --> 2:37:38.280 And it's super important that now in the next three 2:37:38.320 --> 2:37:40.120 months off there are and document people in your life 2:37:40.120 --> 2:37:42.520 so that you check in with them, that you talk 2:37:42.600 --> 2:37:45.400 with them about what the best plan is. We don't 2:37:45.480 --> 2:37:48.039 know what's going to happen. I've outlined some scenarios here. 2:37:48.440 --> 2:37:51.320 None of them may happen, right, we don't know yet, 2:37:51.400 --> 2:37:54.240 but we have these three months and we'd be foolish 2:37:54.320 --> 2:37:54.920 not to use them. 2:37:55.240 --> 2:37:55.440 Yep. 2:37:55.680 --> 2:37:59.039 Yeah, talk to your friends, begin organizing The solution is 2:37:59.080 --> 2:38:01.640 not to spare. Solution this community, and I know it 2:38:01.640 --> 2:38:03.480 can be really to spend. If you're listening and you 2:38:03.520 --> 2:38:09.120 are and documented, I understand how petrifying this is. And 2:38:09.480 --> 2:38:11.560 just know that, like we're all thinking of you and 2:38:11.760 --> 2:38:14.080 hopefully there are people in your life who are there 2:38:14.120 --> 2:38:15.640 to help you and to help you get through a 2:38:15.680 --> 2:38:16.280 difficult time. 2:38:18.480 --> 2:38:21.680 Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 2:38:21.720 --> 2:38:23.640 from now until the heat death of the Universe. 2:38:24.040 --> 2:38:26.520 It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 2:38:26.720 --> 2:38:29.800 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 2:38:29.840 --> 2:38:33.440 Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 2:38:33.520 --> 2:38:37.080 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 2:38:37.120 --> 2:38:39.440 now find sources for It Could Happen Here listened directly 2:38:39.480 --> 2:38:41.760 in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.