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Speaker 1: Alzon Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know. This is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions. Welcome back to it

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Speaker 2: could happen here, a podcast about it happening here, and

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Speaker 2: the it that is on everyone's minds right now. This

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Speaker 2: will be dropping two or three days before the twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty four election, possibly two or three days before everyone's

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Speaker 2: life changes substantially. We have no way of knowing. I'm

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Speaker 2: not optimistic or pessimistic. I have no idea what's going

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Speaker 2: to happen. But one thing that everyone ought to be

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Speaker 2: aware of, whether or not Trump wins, is kind of,

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Speaker 2: to put it bluntly, the man has shooters. And some

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Speaker 2: of those shooters are literal shooters in that they are

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Speaker 2: local sheriff's departments, people who call themselves constitutional sheriffs. This

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Speaker 2: is an organization that's really got off the ground in

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Speaker 2: twenty twelve, and for more than a decade has been

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Speaker 2: making inroads with elected Republican leaders, with Republican influencers, with

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Speaker 2: groups like the Oathkeepers, And these are guys who, in

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Speaker 2: brief belief, the sheriff is the only is You can

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Speaker 2: kind of get two versions of this, but generally either

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Speaker 2: the sheriff is the only legitimate law enforcement authority in

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Speaker 2: the country or the sheriff is the highest legitimate law

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Speaker 2: enforcement I've heard it both ways in the country, and

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Speaker 2: kind of the reason for this basically is a lot

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Speaker 2: of people in rural areas that are more conservative do

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Speaker 2: not want to have to listen to or follow the

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Speaker 2: laws made by people in cities. And more to the point,

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Speaker 2: they believe that the country has been taken off of

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Speaker 2: a good track by dangerous liberal communist types, and you know,

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Speaker 2: they want the ability to use force against you know, migrants,

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Speaker 2: against the undocumented, against people they see as criminals, against

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Speaker 2: left wing protesters, and this is kind of a way

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Speaker 2: for them to argue that they have a right to

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Speaker 2: do it without any restrictions. Now, the whole story is

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Speaker 2: much deeper than that, and to talk about what I

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Speaker 2: think is one of the most important subjects to be

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Speaker 2: discussing right now, because you know, people laugh a lot

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Speaker 2: about like the gravy seals or whatever, like, you know,

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Speaker 2: all these different kind of out of shape militia dudes,

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Speaker 2: the kind of silly fumbling that we saw a lot

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Speaker 2: at January sixth, you know, which I think is a mistake,

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Speaker 2: just because January sixth was still quite dangerous. But when

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Speaker 2: we're talking about these guys, these are not just like

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Speaker 2: random yahoo's. These are people who have the force of

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Speaker 2: law behind them. They're they're armed, they're organized, and they're

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Speaker 2: quite dangerous. And to talk about how dangerous they are

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Speaker 2: and where they came from, I want to bring on

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Speaker 2: a wonderful journalist, investigative reporter and PRA research director Chloe Cooper,

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Speaker 2: who has co executive produced a podcast on the Constitutional

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Speaker 2: Sheriff's movement called The Insurgence, which is a co production

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Speaker 2: of Political Research Associates and Quintero Productions. Chloe, I think

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Speaker 2: I got that all right, right.

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Speaker 3: That was awesome, Yes, thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So let's talk about this. Where do these guys?

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Speaker 2: I gave a little brief overview, but like, where do

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Speaker 2: these guys come from? And you know, what are we

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Speaker 2: seeing from them and the lead up to this election,

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Speaker 2: Like what are they?

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Speaker 4: What are they going to do? Do you think?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I loved the overview that you just gave.

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Speaker 5: I think that was such a great way to approach

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Speaker 5: this all. So the leader of the Constitutional Sheriffs and

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Speaker 5: Peace Officers Association is this guy named former Sheriff mac

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Speaker 5: and he was a sheriff in Arizona. But one little

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Speaker 5: important detail to note is that he actually kind of

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Speaker 5: got his bearings before that in Nevada, and he was

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Speaker 5: courted by someone who was basically in very close company

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Speaker 5: with the John Birch Society.

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Speaker 4: Always comes back to them, I.

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Speaker 5: Know, he actually becomes a sheriff partially because of some

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Speaker 5: of the ideas that come out of the John Birch

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Speaker 5: Society and some of this kind of like emerging trend

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Speaker 5: that in some cases is actually like skeptical of the

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Speaker 5: federal government, skeptical of state governments, and then they start

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Speaker 5: to build out with sheriffs in different parts of the country.

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Speaker 5: At times, I would say the network has really ebbed

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Speaker 5: and flowed. But a couple of things that have been

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Speaker 5: important to note, Like throughout the six years of researching

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Speaker 5: this network of sheriffs that I think is really important,

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Speaker 5: especially in advance of the elections. One is that sheriffs

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Speaker 5: who are aligned with this have really embraced this idea

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Speaker 5: that you can deputize anybody.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: So in some cases you have oath keepers and other

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Speaker 5: militias going to the sheriff to say, hey, you want

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Speaker 5: to deputize me. But in other cases we've actually followed

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Speaker 5: sheriffs who are going into churches and saying we're deputizing

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Speaker 5: all of you.

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Speaker 3: Great sheriffs in Virginia.

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Speaker 5: When the state passed a law that was like a

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Speaker 5: law for some gun restrictions, saying don't worry, people were

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Speaker 5: actually going to deputize you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: That way you can have whatever gun you want and

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Speaker 2: carry it anywhere.

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Speaker 6: Yes.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And also what we started to see is.

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Speaker 5: That during the former Trump administration, he was really actually

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Speaker 5: courting sheriffs around the country, and I think he started

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Speaker 5: to see networks like CSPOA as like part of his

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Speaker 5: ground troops. And so I think that there is a

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Speaker 5: potential danger in sheriffs that are part of this formal

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Speaker 5: network called the CESPOA or other sheriffs, because there are

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Speaker 5: hundreds more that just have like aligned with their way

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Speaker 5: of thinking about things, just playing this role of deputizing

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Speaker 5: more people and creating this kind of idea of like

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Speaker 5: a super citizen or people who are kind of aligned

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Speaker 5: with a far right way of seeing the world, and

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Speaker 5: then getting deputies to be part of the kind of

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Speaker 5: ground troops for that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's like one thing.

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Speaker 5: And then in addition to that, there is also CSPOA

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Speaker 5: itself teamed up with this group called True the Vote,

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Speaker 5: which has mostly since been discredited, but it's been one

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Speaker 5: of the loudest groups in the country that has been

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Speaker 5: spreading this idea that the twenty twenty election was stolen

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Speaker 5: and has been actually working with county sheriffs to try

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Speaker 5: to investigate voter fraud at the local level, but in

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Speaker 5: some cases also working with sheriffs to align with vigilante

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Speaker 5: groups on the border, for example, to intimidate people from

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Speaker 5: actually voting. And so there's kind of, i would say,

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Speaker 5: like a multi pronged series of potential risks and dangers

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Speaker 5: that could play out, particularly from this network in the

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Speaker 5: coming weeks. One other quick thing I'll note is that

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Speaker 5: one of the very late things that we saw and

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Speaker 5: this actually came out of a close kind of colleague

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Speaker 5: and the movement. Devin Burkhardt, who works at the Institute

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Speaker 5: for Research and Education on Human Rights, is that he

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Speaker 5: came across a plan that the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace

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Speaker 5: Officers Association put.

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Speaker 3: Out in Florida.

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Speaker 5: And the plan is to essentially resurrect kind of sovereign

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Speaker 5: citizens style groups in Florida, militia's citizen militias in collaboration

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Speaker 5: with sheriffs to do kind of old school style like

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Speaker 5: intimidation of election clerks of people involved in the election process,

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Speaker 5: and they plan to try to hold tribunals if, for example,

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Speaker 5: the certification of election goes in the direction they disagree with.

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Speaker 5: And now, as a hardcore leftist, you may find like,

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Speaker 5: how what do you actually think about voting and whether

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Speaker 5: that actually changes things and all of that, And I'm like,

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Speaker 5: I've had those, you know, thought bubbles in my brain

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Speaker 5: for a long time also, But I think what we have,

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Speaker 5: what I've started to see is that the Constitutional Sheriffs

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Speaker 5: to me represent and also the groups of people who

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Speaker 5: have aligned with them are actual not just white nationalists,

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Speaker 5: but people who are neo Confederates. And I think of

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Speaker 5: it more of like a neo confederacy, and that what

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Speaker 5: we could see is something like sheriffs actually coming in

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Speaker 5: confrontation with potentially even police and mayors and governors, and

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Speaker 5: them representing a different kind of politic, a different type

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Speaker 5: of way of seeing society. And one person also talked

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Speaker 5: about how the constitutional what are they really referring to?

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Speaker 5: Are they referring to? You know, what is it the

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Speaker 5: organic constitution? Essentially before slavery was abolished, before women had

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Speaker 5: the right to vote, before the you know, Native Americans

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Speaker 5: had the right to vote. And so if that's the case,

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Speaker 5: that that is actually the kind of constitution that they

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Speaker 5: are upholding and representing, then they are actually been quite

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Speaker 5: successful in building out different alliances around the country within

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Speaker 5: a somewhat prominent law enforcement institution that has very little accountability.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I so this is where I kind of wind

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Speaker 2: up in conflict with both liberals and a lot of leftists.

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Speaker 2: Is I think that the leftists who say like there's

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Speaker 2: no point in voting are wrong for the same reason

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Speaker 2: that like I think people who say there's no reason

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Speaker 2: for civilians to be armed, I don't happen to agree

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Speaker 2: with that, and I don't happen to agree with it,

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Speaker 2: because I think if somebody who wants to kill you

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Speaker 2: has a weapon and you have the ability to either

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Speaker 2: match that weapon or take it from them, then that's

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Speaker 2: probably what you should do for the sake of your

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Speaker 2: own survival. And handing over complete control of the state,

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Speaker 2: the military, and the police apparatus to the far right

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Speaker 2: is handing them the most powerful weapon anyone has ever made,

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Speaker 2: and I just don't think that's wise.

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Speaker 7: Now.

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Speaker 2: At the same token, the thing that kind of liberals

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Speaker 2: will bring up a lot, which is that like, just vote,

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Speaker 2: just get out and vote. What we've been doing, and

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Speaker 2: Democrats have overwhelmingly outperformed conservatives in elections this century, and

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Speaker 2: it hasn't been enough, and it hasn't been enough in

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Speaker 2: part because these people don't care about the law. You know,

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Speaker 2: there's a moment in your podcast where you know, I like,

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Speaker 2: you have an expert on who's kind of talking about

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Speaker 2: the sheriff deputizing you know, seventy people or whatever in

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Speaker 2: this small town and being like, well, he's not actually

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Speaker 2: allowed to do that, Like, you know, the actual letter

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Speaker 2: of the law does not give him the right to

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Speaker 2: be doing this. He's misinterpreting the Constitution. But the reality

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Speaker 2: of the situation is that like he's allowed to do

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Speaker 2: whatever he can get enough people with guns to back

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Speaker 2: him in doing And that's that's honestly, the root of

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Speaker 2: all politics is how much force can you bring to bear,

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Speaker 2: you know, in order to support the reality you want

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Speaker 2: to support, right, Like, that's that is how it all works.

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Speaker 2: And the bet the right is making with all of

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Speaker 2: these different anti democratic strategies they're trying is that no

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Speaker 2: matter what they do, and no matter how far against

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Speaker 2: the Constitution, against the rule of law they take things,

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Speaker 2: they will have the force to support their version of reality.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know, I don't know how we thread

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Speaker 2: this needle. Right, The easiest thing is like, well, maybe

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Speaker 2: if Kamala has a really resounding victory, there just won't

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Speaker 2: be much for them to fight on right and they'll

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Speaker 2: kind of back down. But even if she wins in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, which I think is the better of

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Speaker 2: the options that we've got, these people aren't going away,

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Speaker 2: and in fact, I think you are going to see

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Speaker 2: challenges at local levels. I think it's not impossible that

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Speaker 2: we wind up with like an anti pope style situation

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Speaker 2: with the presidency, whereas like Trump holds his own inauguration

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Speaker 2: and a bunch of state and local leaders say like, no,

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Speaker 2: we're not recognizing the Harris administration. Donald Trump is our president. Like,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of weird shit that could wind up

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Speaker 2: as the result of this, And I just don't see

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Speaker 2: us getting out of this purely through electoral methods.

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Speaker 4: And I don't know what.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how else we handle it, right, because

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Speaker 2: you also get into this situation of like, Okay, well

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Speaker 2: we're going to send in the police to crack down

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Speaker 2: on these sheriffs that are breaking the law. Well what

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Speaker 2: if the police don't want to do it. What if

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Speaker 2: the police are more supportive of these sheriffs departments than

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Speaker 2: they are of you know, they're elected leaders in the

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Speaker 2: state or at the federal level. You know, what if

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Speaker 2: the FBI, as has happened in the past, what if

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Speaker 2: the Feds are unwilling to go up against a bunch

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Speaker 2: of arm heavily armed quote unquote patriots, you know, like

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Speaker 2: we saw in you know, some of the Bundy shit

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Speaker 2: from about a decade ago, right, Like, what if what

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Speaker 2: if the people who are supposed to handle this for

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Speaker 2: the citizenry in a situation that abides by the law,

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Speaker 2: abrogate their responsibility because they're scared you know who backs

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Speaker 2: us up?

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Speaker 3: Then wow, Okay, you just put a lot out.

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Speaker 4: There, Sorry, sir, Like I wanted.

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Speaker 8: To respond about oh one more diapologist.

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Speaker 4: That was my That was my bad that I think.

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Speaker 3: Okay, a couple a couple of thoughts.

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Speaker 5: One is that I think that far right movements are

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Speaker 5: very much mobilizing within the government right now, and or

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Speaker 5: you could say maybe.

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Speaker 3: Fascism is trying to mobilize within the government, and.

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Speaker 5: So I think you have I think we have to

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Speaker 5: grapple with that really seriously. And so like in terms

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Speaker 5: of anti fascist strategies, I don't know what is you know,

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Speaker 5: what could that actually look like right now, but you

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Speaker 5: have to grapple with the reality that many far right

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Speaker 5: movements have made serious, serious headway into not just former president,

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Speaker 5: but into state legislators, into the judicial system, into sheriff's departments,

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Speaker 5: and so we are seeing a major fissure right now.

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Speaker 5: So I don't know how to respond completely to some

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Speaker 5: of the questions around around electoral politics, but I think

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Speaker 5: those are really important questions that you're posing and then

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Speaker 5: just to go pivot back to my wheelhouse, which is

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Speaker 5: the right and the far right and some of their strategies.

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Speaker 5: One of the things that you touched on is something

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Speaker 5: that a number of different far right strategies have been

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Speaker 5: practicing over the years, and it is about this idea

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Speaker 5: of both nullification or interposition is what they call it. So,

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Speaker 5: these constitutional sheriffs, one of the tactics that they have

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Speaker 5: used over the years is to get sheriffs around the

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Speaker 5: country to not enforce state laws. Right, and so you

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Speaker 5: had a whole wave of sheriffs around the country supporting

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Speaker 5: sanctuaries for the Second Amendment.

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Speaker 3: Second Amendment sanctuaries.

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Speaker 5: Okay, so they said in their own county, we're not

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Speaker 5: going to enforce gun restriction laws. And again think about that, however,

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Speaker 5: you will all good, but they're saying we're not going

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Speaker 5: to afford us at the county level. Then you had

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Speaker 5: all these shrifs around the country being like, we're not

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Speaker 5: going to enforce lockdown orders, We're not going to enforce

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Speaker 5: mask mandates. What are they practicing. They're practicing them muscle

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Speaker 5: of exactly what you just talked about.

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Speaker 2: Right right, Yeah, I think that's a great way to

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Speaker 2: look at it too.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, independent of what's happening at the federal government, independent

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Speaker 5: of who wins. Right now, there is like a confederated

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Speaker 5: situation happening in the country, and these sheriffs and also

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Speaker 5: others have been very much in those muscles. So it's

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Speaker 5: not just kind of the militias that will back these

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Speaker 5: sheriffs that are interested in that type of strategy.

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Speaker 3: There's the whole.

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Speaker 5: Like all these different movements that come out of the

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Speaker 5: Christian reconstructionists all talk about interposition, So the idea of

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Speaker 5: getting sheriffs, other elected officials within the local magistrate to

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Speaker 5: prop up and kind of protect your politics, regardless of

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Speaker 5: the state or federal And so now we have this

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Speaker 5: interesting moment where you've had in recent history, you know,

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Speaker 5: a former president that actually aligned with some of those politics,

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Speaker 5: and then you have a bunch of state legislators at

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Speaker 5: align and so I think understanding some of the strategies

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Speaker 5: that's important. It's important to understand that you may have

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Speaker 5: sheriffs that are backing this, and they may not always

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Speaker 5: align with the police, and they may not always align

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Speaker 5: with the governor, and so it's going to be a

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Speaker 5: little different than what we may often think of as

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Speaker 5: like systemic white supremacy, where all the state and law

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Speaker 5: enforcement are locking step together. Yeah, I think looking at

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Speaker 5: the Civil War, as you've done so many different times,

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Speaker 5: is actually really important, Like how does this reflect patterns

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Speaker 5: that are more similar actually to you know, the Confederacy

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Speaker 5: against the North or those or you know, these types

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Speaker 5: of other moments in US history.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to throw to ads and then I'll come back. So, yeah, everybody,

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Speaker 2: here's here's some maths.

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Speaker 4: We're back.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to ask, are there cases you can think

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Speaker 2: of of, like some of these guys, these constitutional sheriffs

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Speaker 2: who have been voted out and like forced out of office,

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Speaker 2: had kind of these some of these policies that they've

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Speaker 2: been pushing reverse, Like do we have do we have

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Speaker 2: any kind of case studies of times sheriffs went hard

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Speaker 2: into this ideology and actually lost power as a result

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Speaker 2: of it.

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Speaker 5: So actually, in episode four it touches on it briefly,

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Speaker 5: but it's a really interesting and kind of rather both

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Speaker 5: in some ways inspiring but also disturbing.

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Speaker 3: Case study to some degree.

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Speaker 5: There is a sheriff in North Carolina, Sheriff Jim pendergraph

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Speaker 5: of Mecklenburg County, and he was really inspired by the

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Speaker 5: former sheriff Joe or Pio in Arizona, and he is

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Speaker 5: one of the people who really champions this program called

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Speaker 5: two eighty seven G which allows sheriffs to basically deputize

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Speaker 5: their office as ICE federal ICE agents and work with ICE.

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Speaker 5: So he pilots that in Mecklenburg County and then as

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Speaker 5: basically picked up by ICE and kind of helps try

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Speaker 5: to spread it all.

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Speaker 3: Throughout the South.

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Speaker 5: Something pretty historic and credible happened in some ways in

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Speaker 5: twenty eighteen where you had black organizers, immigrant rights organizers

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Speaker 5: pushed for this whole campaign to oust him and a

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Speaker 5: number of other close by kind of real white supremacist

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Speaker 5: sheriffs in North Carolina, and they were successful, and there

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Speaker 5: was a sheriff that ran and a number of black

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Speaker 5: sheriffs were elected in the state, and some of the

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Speaker 5: sheriffs ran on not complying with ICE and knock up

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Speaker 5: and ending this program called the twenty seven G Agreement.

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Speaker 5: And seemed like this historic moment, this historic win in

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Speaker 5: the immediate aftermath of that, as opposed to in moments

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Speaker 5: where you have sheriff saying we're not going to enforce

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Speaker 5: the lockdown order, and essentially, besides some reporters reporting on it,

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Speaker 5: nothing happens. Instead, what happened is that within a few

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Speaker 5: months of this sheriff ending the twenty seven g agreement,

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Speaker 5: the federal government comes in and issues pretty massive ICE

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Speaker 5: raids through the county and actually, you know, ends up

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Speaker 5: locking up over one hundred different people, many of whom

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Speaker 5: got deported.

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Speaker 3: Pretty soon after that, you had.

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Speaker 5: A number of other sheriffs in the state, including this

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Speaker 5: one constitutional sheriff who also had aligned with another large

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Speaker 5: anti immigrant network called the Federation for American Immigration Reform,

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Speaker 5: essentially organizing in the state for the state to push

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Speaker 5: back and push an entire state wide mandate that all

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Speaker 5: sheriffs comply with ICE. So that's not really an uplifting story.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, actually not quite.

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Speaker 5: I think what it demonstrates, in a tough way, is

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Speaker 5: more about this kind of like when sheriffs claim all

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Speaker 5: of this autonomy at the local level, which they seem

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Speaker 5: to actually in many cases be able to practice kind

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Speaker 5: of quite well, you know, when they say they want

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Speaker 5: to enforce the state wide gun restrictions or mask mandates. Again,

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Speaker 5: from what I understand and I've been in touch with

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Speaker 5: some of the leading constitutional lawyers who are trying to

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Speaker 5: look into it further.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, almost nothing happens.

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Speaker 5: But then if you have let's say, a sheriff in

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Speaker 5: this case, you know, not enforcing ending an agreement with ICE,

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Speaker 5: there's a pretty serious and significant backlash. There has also,

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Speaker 5: though been you know, there was an amazing campaign to

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Speaker 5: eventually get sheriff, your former sheriff, you or Pyo out

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Speaker 5: that took like a ton of organizing by immigrant rights

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Speaker 5: organizers in Arizona, and that was pretty incredible and sustained,

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Speaker 5: and there's been a lot of good stuff written about it.

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Speaker 5: So it's not it's not not the case that people

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Speaker 5: have built campaigns and have been able to unseat their sheriff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and that's that's good to know,

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Speaker 2: because like I much prefer the like slow disassembling of

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Speaker 2: this in a world in which they don't just get

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Speaker 2: full power and start, you know, going after people with

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Speaker 2: the wrong signs on their front yards. Been any other

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Speaker 2: option here, It just it seems like it's one of

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Speaker 2: those situations where the deck is very much stacked in

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Speaker 2: their favor, right in part because of how long I

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Speaker 2: think this problem has been ignored, Like it's really just

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Speaker 2: now I'm so glad that y'all's podcast is out, because

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Speaker 2: I still don't think there's nearly enough attention on like

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Speaker 2: what these sheriffs are doing, because this really is it's

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Speaker 2: so fundamentally anti democratic in a way that is also

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Speaker 2: has a great deal of legitimacy in the eyes and

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Speaker 2: ears of at least a lot of the people living

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Speaker 2: in these areas, right Like, this is not just some

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Speaker 2: Yahoo declaring himself, you know, a militia. It's not like

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Speaker 2: the State of Jefferson movement saying like we're totally going

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Speaker 2: to secede from California. These are guys with real power.

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Speaker 2: So I guess kind of where I'd like to close

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Speaker 2: by is asking do you see a shift in rhetoric

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Speaker 2: from these people from like twenty twenty to twenty twenty four, Like,

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Speaker 2: because I feel like right now the rhetoric is much

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Speaker 2: more like aggressively anti like the enemy within, whereas you know,

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty it was much more focused on gun

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Speaker 2: rights and going after migrants. But I think you would

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Speaker 2: have a better better sense of that than I do.

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Speaker 5: So one thing is that immediately following twenty twenty, there

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Speaker 5: was some effort on the part of CSPOA to start

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Speaker 5: to slightly distance themselves from the Oath Keepers.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, CSPO and the Oathkeepers.

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Speaker 5: I mean, the former Sheriff mac that was the founder

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Speaker 5: of the CSPOA was on the board of the Oath Keepers,

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Speaker 5: and Stuart Rhodes, who's been charged with seditious conspiracy for

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Speaker 5: his role planning J six, has been working closely with

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Speaker 5: CSPOA for the entire time that CSPOA, for the most part,

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Speaker 5: has been around, So they were working really, really, really

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Speaker 5: closely together. So there was a little bit of a

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Speaker 5: shift after J six where CSPOA tried to distance themselves from.

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Speaker 3: The Oath Keepers.

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Speaker 5: But I would say that the other thing that you

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Speaker 5: touched on is also true. As opposed to focusing so

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Speaker 5: much on kind of nullification of any sort of creating

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Speaker 5: you know, Second Amendment sanctuaries or those types of things,

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Speaker 5: they've really leaned hard into investigating election fraud and kind

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Speaker 5: of stop this deal style rhetoric.

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Speaker 4: Oh right, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

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Speaker 5: And they've really leaned hard in a very frightening way

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Speaker 5: into more like really harsh and horrible anti immigrant rhetoric.

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Speaker 5: And so, you know, back literally at their twenty twenty

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Speaker 5: four spring CSPOA convening, they're talking about the great replacement theory.

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Speaker 5: They're talking about doing every single thing in their powers

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Speaker 5: to make sure that there is not election fraud. They're

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Speaker 5: talking about, you know, making sure that I don't want

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Speaker 5: to use the terms here, but that undocument people don't

440
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 5: vote in the elections and those types of things. And

441
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 5: then what was really frightening in this plan that I

442
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,159
Speaker 5: spoke about briefly in Florida that the state director of

443
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:57,880
Speaker 5: CSPOA released is that they are actually embracing more far

444
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 5: right views overtly in that plan than they have in

445
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 5: any other time actually since they were formed. So they're

446
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,959
Speaker 5: explicitly quoting, for any of your nerds out here that

447
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 5: follow this stuff, this guy Matthew Truhella, and he openly

448
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 5: advocated for political violence and was one of the people

449
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 5: who actually justified violence against abortion providers in the nineteen nineties.

450
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 5: They quote him numerous times when talking about setting up

451
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 5: citizen militias to actually essentially target election clerks in the

452
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,640
Speaker 5: event that they are not happy with how the elections

453
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 5: turn out. So there is a shift I would say,

454
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 5: in like in multiple directions, some of which are very

455
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 5: very much just in line with Trump and the Trump

456
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 5: campaign to some degree, and some of which are already

457
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 5: kind of, you know, plans for a different type of

458
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 5: insurgence at the local level, and the event that things

459
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 5: don't go in their.

460
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 8: Direction, yeah, I'm going to throw us to ads once

461
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 8: more and then we will come back and to close

462
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 8: ourselves out.

463
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 2: So everybody have an ad and we're back, so quobe. Yeah,

464
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 2: just kind of inclosing. What are you kind of keeping

465
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 2: your ear to the ground on as we as we

466
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 2: near election day? Like, what are kind of your do

467
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 2: you have any like particular sort of red lines that

468
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 2: you're keeping an eye out for from these people.

469
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 5: I am looking closely at Florida and whether some of

470
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 5: the plans that they've actually laid out in Florida might happen.

471
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 5: I'm also keeping a close ear to battleground states where

472
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 5: it seems like a number of these militias are kind

473
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 5: of activated aligned with some sheriff's departments, and I want

474
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 5: to particularly see if there's any type of cases that

475
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 5: kind of show up in terms of either voter intimidation

476
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 5: or those types of things. And it's just been dawning

477
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 5: on me more and more that a number of the

478
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 5: people who are in the CSPA network are actually in

479
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 5: battleground states, and I just wonder to what degree that's

480
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 5: a coincidence or not. I think I'm just trying to

481
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 5: kind of get a sense of how also some of

482
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 5: the framing from these sheriffs continue to shift and whether

483
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 5: they actually become activated, whether they're polsees or citizen militias

484
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 5: that become kind of mobilized as they did to some

485
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 5: degree in twenty twenty.

486
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 2: Well, that's what I will be keeping an eye on too.

487
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you so much for coming on. Thank

488
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 2: you for putting together this podcast series everyone listened to.

489
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 2: The Insurgents Sheriffs co produced by Political Researches, Soviets, Political

490
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 2: Research Associates and Quintero Productions. Again, that's the Insurgents Sheriffs

491
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,199
Speaker 2: you can find wherever podcasts are found. Thank you for

492
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 2: coming on. Everybody check this out and hopefully we will

493
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 2: have a drop of the podcast and the Bastard Speed

494
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 2: so people can listen in on that too. Thank you

495
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 2: so much, Chloe, thank you so much for having me,

496
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 2: and thank you listeners.

497
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 6: Welcome to Ikadapa.

498
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 9: Here a podcast taking place on a day that will

499
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 9: live in infamy and set a country ablaze. I am,

500
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 9: of course referring to Guy Fox Day. I'm your host,

501
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 9: be along with these James here.

502
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 4: I'm excited.

503
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 8: I'm excited to share with people some of our national

504
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 8: traditions in the United Kingdom.

505
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 9: Yeah, and so as a person from the country who

506
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 9: won the Revolution, I get to.

507
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 6: Do the British episode because should I fucking yes? So

508
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 6: all right.

509
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 9: The the thing about the Gunpowder plot is that, like

510
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 9: another event occurring in November fifth, there are no heroes

511
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 9: and everyone like sucks shit. Yes, So in order in

512
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 9: order to return to a type of heroes and to

513
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 9: get the context of what the fuck is going on here,

514
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 9: we're taking a digression because I Am never going to

515
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 9: get another chance to talk about this part of history

516
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 9: unless I read a Martin Luther episode. So we're going

517
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 9: all the way back to the origins of the split

518
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 9: between Protestantism and Catholicism.

519
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 4: Good.

520
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 9: Yeah, I just I was raised to Lutheran, Okay, so

521
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 9: I got a very very sanitized version of who Martin

522
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 9: Luther was, and then I read about Martin Luther actually

523
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 9: was and was like, holy shit, yeah, different dude, Martin Luther.

524
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:57,959
Speaker 9: And this is the part also that doesn't really get

525
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 9: talked about in the sort of luther tradition because Luthor

526
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 9: and the Lutheran tradition is not a revolutionary tradition. Shall

527
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 9: we say that the thing that Lutheran did, we started

528
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 9: Protestant dism by accident, was accidentally kicked off a genuine,

529
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 9: full scale social revolution in Europe with his attacks on

530
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 9: the Catholic Church. He was not trying to do this,

531
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 9: but he very quickly has has in fact accidentally done this,

532
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 9: and through the sort of breach that he'd opened, and

533
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 9: like the ironclad walls of Catholic monarchical rule, came the

534
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 9: German Peasants Wars. And my favorite dude in this entire

535
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 9: period of time, Flora Gehren.

536
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 4: The thing. If you're familiar with Flora, good name.

537
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 6: Oh, this guy rules. This guy fucking rips.

538
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 9: Okay, there is a Knight who there's a lot of

539
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 9: debate about this, but the sources that I've read a

540
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 9: long time ago, when I was reading about this guy

541
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 9: says that he is the only like they are, the

542
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 9: only like knights, like mounted knights, in like the entire

543
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 9: history of Europe to defect and join a peasant revolution.

544
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 4: Oh, they're these guys, they're like the yeah Night so something.

545
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, the Black Company.

546
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 9: Yeah yeah, he rules, Yeah, it slaps, So the druid

547
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 9: peasant Wars kickoff and he he he enjoys the peasant

548
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 9: revolution with this sword that is supposedly inscribed with the

549
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 9: words neither cross nor crown.

550
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 6: Unbelievably based he fucking proto. Yeah. Yeah, and his thing him.

551
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 9: In the Black Company, which is part like, it's part

552
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 9: Knight's part. Like peasants just basically run around the regia

553
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 9: and kill the ship out of nobles and priests and

554
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 9: like spread the spread, spread the glorious fire of the

555
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 9: peasant revolution.

556
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 6: What hero, Yeah, it's awesome.

557
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 8: I found a picture of him strong chin as well,

558
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 8: I will say powerful Joline.

559
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 9: Yeah. I mean he has an interesting sort of conflicting legacy.

560
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 9: So he gets killed eventually, the giant preasant revolution is

561
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 9: eventually destroyed, and we'll talk about Martin Luther's role in

562
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 9: that in a second. But he has this interesting legacy

563
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 9: where he's taken up as an national hero by like

564
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 9: every kind of non establishment faction of German politics. So

565
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 9: he's like like there's an SS division named after him.

566
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 9: He's also like one of the heroes of East Germany.

567
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, I can see this. Yeah, and like this is.

568
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 9: One of these things were like and like in like

569
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 9: twenty and thirties Germany you will have communist social Democrats

570
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 9: and the Nazis all singing like the same songs about

571
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 9: this guy.

572
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 6: Yeah.

573
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 9: You know, he's one of the few sort of redeemable

574
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 9: figures in German history.

575
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, rips.

576
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 8: Yeah, And this is what happens with national myth making, right,

577
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 8: you just take you sing and make it plastic. It's

578
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 8: like you mold it to whatever you want it to be,

579
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 8: whatever you want you a national story to be.

580
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

581
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, And like like this happens with Makno and Ukraine.

582
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 9: This happiest with what we talked was on Margaret Show

583
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 9: and I did. We did a bunch of episodes about

584
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 9: anarchism in Korea, and like they do this with a

585
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 9: bunch of Korean anarchists too. They become like national like

586
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 9: state heroes, and it's like, well, okay, this guy would

587
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 9: have absolutely shot you. Like this is one of these

588
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 9: things where it's like like if you if you if

589
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 9: you were to show if you were to show this

590
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 9: guy the SS, he'd be like, what the fuck?

591
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 4: Like, get my sewed out again?

592
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's time, It's time to start the killing again.

593
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 6: Yeah.

594
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 9: And very specifically, Geary is like he'd actually had known

595
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 9: Martin Luther back before he like joined the peasants, and

596
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 9: like specifically the fact that they're they're like these peasants

597
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 9: are like sacking castles and killing priests and like the

598
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 9: ruling class very specifically makes is like like the fact

599
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 9: that the ruling class could conceivably be in danger is

600
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 9: the thing that convinces Martin Luther to become I think

601
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 9: I've made this argument on the show before, but I

602
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 9: think he is, at very worst, like the second greatest

603
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 9: kind of revolutionary in like the last four or five

604
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 9: hundred years, because I hold that the greatest kind of

605
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 9: revolutionary is the one who starts the revolution and then realizes,

606
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 9: holy shit, I can't control this and I don't like

607
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 9: where it's going, and then immediately turns kind of revenue

608
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 9: true to kill everyone who was involved.

609
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 4: No, not like that.

610
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

611
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 9: So the product of this is that Martin Luther writes

612
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 9: this book kind of long pamphlet called against the murderous,

613
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 9: diving hordes the peasants and aligns himself with the princes. Yeah,

614
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 9: and you know, so then this is the start of

615
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 9: what it's eventually a century.

616
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 6: You know, there's a couple of centuries of religious war

617
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 6: in here where they get to you.

618
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 9: But this is in a lot of ways, I think

619
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 9: the beginning of the reproach ma between Catholicism and Protestantism, because.

620
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, because class is more important.

621
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 9: Yeah yeah, and that that actually, weirdly, is it an

622
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 9: extremely important part of the story of Guy fox Day.

623
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, yeah.

624
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 9: And you know, the other thing that Luther's up to

625
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 9: in this period is trying to outflank the Catholics on

626
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 9: anti Semitism, which is pretty hard because like, so this

627
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 9: is the early this is the early like fifteen hundreds, right, yeah,

628
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 9: we are like forty years out from two Spanish monarchs

629
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 9: like expelling the Jews from Spain.

630
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 4: So like sixteenth century anti Semitism is like peak.

631
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 9: I don't know, it's it's hard to exactly like tear

632
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 9: list the like periods of anti Semitism, but like, right,

633
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 9: like the Holocaust, the Holocaust is obviously number one, and

634
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 9: then like this period like the Kolmannitsky pull Grom and

635
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 9: like some of the stuff in late nineteen like late

636
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 9: eighteen hundred Russia or like yeah, some like the worst

637
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 9: periods in human history for this.

638
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, this is pretty terrific shit.

639
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 9: And and Luther decides that he's going to like outflank

640
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 9: the Catholics and anti Semitism, and so he writes this

641
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 9: book called on the Jews and their Lies, which is like, yeah,

642
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 9: the first version of this that I wrote had a

643
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 9: joke here about how it could have been written by Hitler.

644
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 9: But then I then I like did it a little

645
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 9: bit of reading about it and was like, holy shit,

646
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 9: this specific thing was used by like Nazi Like, oh,

647
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 9: I'm sure Lutheran pastors specifically justifiedly that the Holocaust in

648
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 9: like thirty eight.

649
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 6: So that's great. Yeah, how cool.

650
00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 9: Yeah, So this is this is you know, this is

651
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,839
Speaker 9: the sort of one of like what you could call

652
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,800
Speaker 9: like the Protestant counter revolution against the sort of social

653
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 9: revolutionary forces they kicked off right. Well, the anti Sumptus

654
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 9: like hard line stuff is a bit later. But there's

655
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,240
Speaker 9: there's one more kind of big uprising which is very funny,

656
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 9: which is the Anabaptist in Munster who formed this like

657
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 9: oh yeah, pretty base democratic commune that eventually kind of

658
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 9: peers into like a sex cult thing, but like in

659
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 9: a way that's more like people realize they could be

660
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 9: poly than it is like normal sex cult.

661
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 8: It's people like like emerging from an extremely constrained like yeah,

662
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 8: socialized sexuality.

663
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 9: I guess, yeah, And you know, so this is like

664
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 9: this is you know, those are the two sorts of

665
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 9: periods of like high of like the highest levels of

666
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 9: class conflict that that are the results of the prosent information.

667
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 9: And this kind of ends with Muonster when they all

668
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 9: get killed by by the monarchies.

669
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 6: And this is something about the European peasantry. I don't know.

670
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 9: Maybe one day I'll do a project on why the

671
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,720
Speaker 9: European pasantry was so much worse at doing were revolts

672
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 9: in the Chinese peasantry, because the Chinese pasantry knocks off

673
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 9: dynasties all the time, Like the Chinese central government is

674
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,240
Speaker 9: like one hundred thousand times more formidable as a force

675
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 9: than like any of these dipshit like Holy Roman Empire principalities.

676
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 9: But the Chinese peasantry did it anyway that I don't know.

677
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 9: The German peasantry fought hard, it doesn't go great for them.

678
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the entirety of the European society is

679
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 4: structured along like the state monopoly on violence and how

680
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 4: oh yeah, like feudalism is like the sene kwandoon of

681
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 4: feudalism is having the ability to kill all your peasants.

682
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, and it's it's a it's a it's a system.

683
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 9: And I think this is something that like, you know,

684
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 9: this is there's reflection of this you see in sort

685
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 9: of like fantasy a lot, right, where like people will

686
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,399
Speaker 9: write monarchies and then you'll get like or like it's

687
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,280
Speaker 9: using like the science station right where like people people

688
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 9: understand what's bad about a democracy because you've all lived

689
00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 9: in one and you know all the ways that it sucks.

690
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 9: But because most of us like haven't lived under an

691
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 9: actual monarchy. Well okay even then even then yeah, compared

692
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 9: to this shit.

693
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 6: Yeah, like people don't understand how just hideous this shit is.

694
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 6: And this is gonna play a role.

695
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 9: I mean this this is like again, this is like

696
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 9: the thing that starts the French Revolution where the first

697
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 9: time that not the first time but like when people

698
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,800
Speaker 9: actually like start beating the monarchists. Seriously, people have this

699
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 9: tendency to remember like the violence of the French Revolution.

700
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 9: It's like, yeah, there was a lot of shit that

701
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 9: was very bad. But also like these people, these people

702
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 9: that they are fighting, these are these are people who

703
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 9: for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, anytime anyone

704
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 9: has like even dared to talk back to them, has

705
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 9: just fucking murdered them, their families and everyone around them.

706
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, like as horribly as possible.

707
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, and you know, and like as as the

708
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 9: process of their them holding on to their fucking deranged

709
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 9: hereditary power system. And the consequence of this is that

710
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 9: once once these revolutions are put down, sort of Protestantism

711
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 9: versus Catholicism, Like it's not fully this because it's like

712
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 9: there are sort of popular e I mean not in

713
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 9: the good sense, but there are sort of like more

714
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 9: mass like Catholicism versus Prossetism stuff. But like a lot

715
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 9: of it politically becomes the domain of like princes who

716
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,280
Speaker 9: are either sort of running wars that are like nominally

717
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 9: religious based. Although like go go go, look on what

718
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 9: side France enters on the thirty years War in about

719
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 9: twenty years when when France enters out the side and

720
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 9: of Protestants to figure out exactly how much right. But like,

721
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 9: you know, but this kind of conflict becomes this this

722
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 9: kind of more the actual politics becomes centralized in the

723
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 9: ruling class. The metaphor that popped in mind to me

724
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 9: is one that will make sense to about four people.

725
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 9: But it's kind of like the way that all politics

726
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 9: became centralized in the Bath Party and Serie over the

727
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,280
Speaker 9: course of like the sixties and seventies, like all where

728
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 9: like you have this mass politics, but the only politics

729
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 9: that matters is the military and the military factions the

730
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 9: military fighting it out. Like that's kind of what's happening here,

731
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 9: is that like all of these princes are sort of

732
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 9: centralizing religious power.

733
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 6: But this means that like religious wars.

734
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 9: Quote unquote in conflict becomes the domain of like these

735
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 9: coups and counter coups by like princes and they're like

736
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,800
Speaker 9: noble factions and shit. Yeah, and that's where we find

737
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 9: ourselves in the year sixteen oh four, at the beginning

738
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 9: of the gunpowdered treason. And but before before we get that,

739
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 9: do you know what else supports the gunpowder treason the

740
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 9: seventeenth century.

741
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely, chump a casino.

742
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 6: Yeah, they're really major funders.

743
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 8: The Yeah, it's okay if you lose your money, jump

744
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:45,840
Speaker 8: at casino guys, because they're trying to blow up the

745
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 8: houses of Parliament.

746
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 6: We are back. We are back to the past.

747
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 9: We're back you I guess the future of where we

748
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 9: were several seconds before that. So England famously became Protestant

749
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 9: when King Henry the eighth wanted a new wife and

750
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:11,359
Speaker 9: the Pope wouldn't let him get a new wife.

751
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, anohing new wife, right, Like, was it like this,

752
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 8: this was new Wait, that's a rhyme for this divorce divorced, beheaded.

753
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 6: Survived, survived. Yeah.

754
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 8: I think it was the first divorced because after that

755
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 8: he just went he went ham on the wives.

756
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 9: And so through this incredibly silly chain of events, they

757
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 9: leave the Catholic Church and become Protestants through Anglicanism, which.

758
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:34,879
Speaker 4: Is Catholicism light.

759
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 6: Like yeah, and I.

760
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 9: Think it's more Catholicism light because like Lutheranism also gets

761
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 9: described to this Becautholicism light. But I could emphatically state

762
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 9: there is a major difference because I came, I was

763
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,720
Speaker 9: raised Lutheran, and I fucking have no guilt whatsoever.

764
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 6: No guilt, zero, I feel bad about nothing, no shame.

765
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 8: Catholicism to England is more or less Catholicism minus Pope.

766
00:40:59,520 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 6: Yeah.

767
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 8: Yeah, and obviously they differ over time, because yeah, because

768
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 8: it's just the drift of history, they evolved differently.

769
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah.

770
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:12,280
Speaker 9: But then but this this starts like actual a series

771
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:16,359
Speaker 9: of kind of horrendous religious conflicts inside of the UK

772
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 9: where just like a bunch of random people get killed

773
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 9: because once princes become the people controlling religions, everything gets

774
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 9: unbelievably stupid really quickly.

775
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's just a vehicle for like elite fucking ambitions,

776
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 8: yeah right, that they can pick a faction and use

777
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 8: that to get a little bit higher up the ladder.

778
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 9: So there's like there's a series of like coups and

779
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 9: countercups to attempt to like reinstall Catholic rule or get

780
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 9: rid of and like it's all really boring, Like it's

781
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 9: it's so boring I cannot haveize.

782
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 8: Like, yeah, let me tell you, Mayer, I did that

783
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 8: in history in school for years. Somehow overcame that to

784
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 8: get a PhD in history, But that shit was dull.

785
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 9: It's it's hideously boring, like which is insane because like

786
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 9: like bloody Mary is involved in this and it's still boring.

787
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, there's a lot of beheadings, the princes in

788
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 8: the Tower, famous little dead children, a lot of murder.

789
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, but boring murder, which is staggering. How do you

790
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 6: make murder boring? Easy? Ah? You do this shit.

791
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 8: Yeah, Shakespeare wrote some good place about this shit. And

792
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 8: for those of you who are interested.

793
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,879
Speaker 6: Yeah, go go consult that. I don't know.

794
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 9: So by sixteen oh four, a group of guys that

795
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 9: would eventually extend to like thirteen Catholic guys start to

796
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 9: form a frankly not very good plan to do a

797
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 9: coup and appoint the child king to restore Catholic rule

798
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:41,760
Speaker 9: to Indians.

799
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 6: The child queen.

800
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, they love a child king.

801
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 9: So this plan has Okay, I'm separating it out into

802
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 9: three stages. I don't know whether it's fair to but

803
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 9: I'm doing it. So Part one, use a bunch of

804
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:58,359
Speaker 9: gunpowder to blow up the English Parliament. Okay, Now there's

805
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 9: something that's very important to to understand what's happening here.

806
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 9: This is not a parliament in the sense that we

807
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 9: understand it today, Like this is not like a representative

808
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:11,280
Speaker 9: body like the Parliament is. Basically it's an assembly assembly

809
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 9: of nobles. Yeah, it's the instrument of power of the

810
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 9: English aristocracy. Yeah, which is one of the greatest forces

811
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 9: for human evil in the entirety of human like the

812
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 9: three hundred thousand year history of humanity.

813
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 8: Yeah, we don't have it. Britain doesn't have a universal

814
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 8: franchise until after eighteen thirty two, so.

815
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 9: Like yeah, and this is this is this is sixteen

816
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 9: oh five, yeah, right, like and throughout that whole period

817
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 9: that the powers of the aristocracy like weighs, but this,

818
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 9: this is there unbelievably powerful.

819
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 8: They don't have an universal manhood suffrage even until late

820
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:43,279
Speaker 8: eighteen forty eight. Before that, every constituency it has its

821
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:47,840
Speaker 8: own franchise rules, which makes Parliament even fucking weirder. You

822
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 8: have some that like proto democratic, and you have some

823
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,839
Speaker 8: where it's just a guy yep, and he just shows

824
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 8: up to Parliament and represents himself.

825
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's great. Yeah.

826
00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 9: So you know this part of the plan, the blowing

827
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 9: up the parliament plan. Great, we love it. We support

828
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 9: destroying the English aristocracy. Yeah, always great.

829
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 8: Yet the king, why not it's gonna was it going

830
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:10,240
Speaker 8: to be at the state opening of Parliament?

831
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,839
Speaker 9: I think it was. It was going to be at

832
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 9: some session of parliament with the King was going to

833
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:16,760
Speaker 9: be there. That was part parliament.

834
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 8: So fun fact, Britain still does this incredibly antiquated.

835
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 9: Like barbaric country. Yeah, this is where the we need

836
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 9: China to conquer the UK and established civilization there like

837
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 9: failed it there.

838
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 6: Like Britain.

839
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 9: Britain couldn't even do a bourgeois revolution. Do you know

840
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 9: how easy it is to do a bourgeois revolution? Like son,

841
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 9: yet send pulled it on because Britain.

842
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 8: Has the most established fucking aristocracy in the world.

843
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 6: So, oh my god.

844
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 8: The potty state opening in Parliament, which still happens to

845
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 8: this day, right, incredibly like antiquated procedure. They searched the

846
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 8: sellers of Parliament before did and no one else is

847
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 8: trying to blow them up like this is now part

848
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 8: of the of the like there's a whole that's an

849
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,359
Speaker 8: exchange of hostages, like like there are all these things

850
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 8: that are built in from bizarre episodes in British histories.

851
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 8: They send someone a bottoment to Buckingham Palace to be

852
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 8: like a hostage for the.

853
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 9: Duration.

854
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 4: It's an incredible Yeah.

855
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 6: This is the stupidest system and the like it the British.

856
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 9: The British system, like I think, functionally it is a

857
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 9: more advanced democratic system than the American system, but in

858
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 9: terms of the way that it's like procedure works, it

859
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 9: is like like the American Constitution, which is like one

860
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 9: of the most regressive constitutions, like a constitution that failed

861
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 9: to enshrine one person, one vote. Yeah, right, Like that

862
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:49,280
Speaker 9: constitution looks like fucking star trek compared to like watching

863
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,760
Speaker 9: the stupid ass king the hauling around a scepter.

864
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, some dude three times and then yeah, it just

865
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 8: gets in there and reads his speech.

866
00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 6: Yeah.

867
00:45:58,120 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 9: So so part two of the Gunpowder plot is the

868
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 9: king who's going to be there too. This is also great.

869
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 9: We like killing the king. The coolsone media is a

870
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 9: pro killing the king register establishment, Yes is reticide rules.

871
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 6: We love it. It's great.

872
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 9: Part three is to install a Catholic theocracy or a

873
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 9: place the Protestant one. And we simply do not love this.

874
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:20,800
Speaker 9: The ship sucks.

875
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 8: That's where we diverge, sadly yeah, what, this work's very bad.

876
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 8: Viva Vendetta may have misled you about the intentions of

877
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 8: Guy Forks.

878
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 9: Yes, and we'll get to Viva Vendetta because that's I

879
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,320
Speaker 9: think that's an important part of the closing of this story.

880
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,360
Speaker 6: So the plan falls apart. The plotters get betrayed.

881
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 9: Guy Fox, who's the guy who's supposed to light the gunpowder,

882
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,399
Speaker 9: gets caught and like tortured, which is really funny because

883
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 9: you'll read accounts.

884
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 6: I'm going to read a bit from an account from the.

885
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 9: Somewhat dubiously named English Heritage dot org that is like

886
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 9: they're just quite pretty good on this.

887
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 6: Yeah.

888
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 8: They like they own lots of like big old houses

889
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 8: and stuff. Like if you want to go and see

890
00:46:58,200 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 8: like a manor house, you're pretty going to give them

891
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 8: money to go in. Like it's it's not like as

892
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 8: bad as something named English Heritage could have been. It

893
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 8: could be a lot more racist in an open and

894
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:08,919
Speaker 8: explicit way.

895
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,839
Speaker 9: Yeah yeah, now, but like to think about this, right,

896
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 9: it's like they don't actually discribe what happened to him

897
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 9: during his interrogation as torture, even though they tortured the

898
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 9: shit out of this guy. Oh yeah, like the king

899
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:27,439
Speaker 9: was there. Well, they tortured the shit out of the sky.

900
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, very unpleasant, imagine.

901
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah.

902
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 9: And so eventually, like all the plotters are like either

903
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 9: captured or killed. And I'm going to read this from

904
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 9: that English Heritage article quote. Each was found guilty and

905
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 9: sentenced to a trader's death by the grizzly ordeal of hanging, drawing,

906
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 9: and quartering. Oh yeah, the men were hanged. It's it's

907
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 9: so bad.

908
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:48,879
Speaker 4: I love this shit.

909
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,399
Speaker 8: When I was in school, you don't understand how great

910
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 8: this is for like eight year old boys.

911
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 9: Yeah, but Jesus fucking Christ. So they were hanged, cut

912
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 9: down while still alivee castrated, dismember, and beheaded, and then

913
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 9: their bodies were cut into quarters and displayed for all

914
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 9: to see and for birds to feast upon. According to

915
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 9: all accounts, all face their fates bravely. So these like

916
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 9: and this is something that like is genuinely important to

917
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:14,760
Speaker 9: undersand because we're going to get to the French Revolution

918
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:15,879
Speaker 9: part of the story very soon.

919
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 6: These people are fucking deranged.

920
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 9: They're like they're psychopaths, Like they just they do this

921
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 9: as public entertainments. Yeah, yeah, Like they hang people and

922
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 9: then cut them down and castrate them and then dismember

923
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 9: and behead them while they're alive, like they do this

924
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 9: like for fun.

925
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, isn't this the opening scene of They're just s

926
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:36,240
Speaker 8: been punished by Fuco?

927
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:37,240
Speaker 6: Doesn't he describe?

928
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 9: Yes? Yeah, yeah, and like you know, like this is

929
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 9: this is the thing you have to remember about the

930
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:46,839
Speaker 9: French Revolution is that like these are the people who

931
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:51,799
Speaker 9: rule Europe for like seven hundred years, oh yeah, or

932
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 9: like these motherfuckers and so you know, like they they

933
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 9: stopped the gunpowder trees and no one gets blown up,

934
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 9: and November fifth like immediately gets declared a holiday, but

935
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 9: it's not really the same holiday as as we have today.

936
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 9: I'm gonna read again from that article quote. Since sixteen

937
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 9: seventy three and up until the nineteenth century, some crowds

938
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 9: have paraded an effigy of the pope through the street,

939
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 9: strung up above a bonfire. This symbolized continuing prejudice, prejudice

940
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 9: towards Catholics, which again, like you motherfuckers weren't Catholics until

941
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 9: like fucking seven seconds.

942
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 6: Ago, Like what is wrong with you? People like I

943
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 6: like you?

944
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 9: You were all Catholics until your king decided to make

945
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 9: a fake pope so he could get divorced.

946
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 6: Like what the fuck?

947
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:41,360
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, the Anti want to say, some guy's pretty hot.

948
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 9: Like for a country where like you, like, you were

949
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 9: all literally Catholics until the king decided you weren't.

950
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 6: What is it? Oh my god, I hate Christian so much.

951
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 6: Shit sucks so badly.

952
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 8: Cooking of parades? Have you have you read about the

953
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 8: Lewis bom fire in Sussex? No, okay, they like they

954
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 8: go super hard for bon finite. They also, like, I

955
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 8: think it was the same day or something that some

956
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 8: Protestants will burned at the steak thereat. They have this

957
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 8: big parade where they like they drag, like I think

958
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 8: it's burning barrels of like pitch or tar. Possibly those

959
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 8: are the same thing they have. Like, I'm going to

960
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 8: invite you to google Lewis Lewis bonfire. Just just tell

961
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 8: me what the first image you see is.

962
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:29,840
Speaker 6: Oh Jesus Christ.

963
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 8: Oh no, oh no, yeah that's correct. Yeah, yeah, what

964
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 8: you see crosses jump scared. So they don't just burn

965
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,799
Speaker 8: guy forks in effigy. They have these big sort of

966
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 8: every every year they'll have like the person of the

967
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 8: Year they're going to burn so like effigies that they've

968
00:50:53,239 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 8: burned include David Cameron, don't be Clarkson except blatter like

969
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 8: some of it got surprisingly hard, Like I think at

970
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 8: some point, like there's like a formal like they've been

971
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 8: investigated by the police, fight multiple time. Nearly all of

972
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,840
Speaker 8: them are against politicians, like you know, we probably should

973
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 8: have mentioned that they also burned a Romani caravan, which

974
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:21,840
Speaker 8: is pretty fucking terrible.

975
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, all right, speaking speaking speaking of burning David Cameron,

976
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 9: do you know who else burns David Cameron?

977
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 4: Is it the goods and services that support this podcast?

978
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:41,720
Speaker 6: Yeah? Great, yeah, yeah, we're now returning.

979
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 9: Let's go back to that thing I was reading about

980
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 9: what happened to them them haying the Pope. Yeah, so

981
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,840
Speaker 9: the less this symboli is continuing presidents against Catholics. However,

982
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:57,240
Speaker 9: during the French Revolution, English and Irish Catholics fought from Britain,

983
00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 9: which found itself on the same side of the Pope,

984
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 9: and perhaps because of this, in around eighteen hundred, Guy

985
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 9: Fox seems to have finally entered the picture as the

986
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 9: boogeyman of Bonfire Night rather than the Pope. Fox was

987
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 9: barely mentioned in fifth November sermons in the eighteenth century,

988
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 9: and his name doesn't feature in the titles of books

989
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 9: or tracks before eighteen hundred, but after that date his

990
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 9: name began to appear, and Fox seems to have quickly

991
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:21,400
Speaker 9: become a central character in English popular culture, often portrayed

992
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 9: as a dashing, doomed anti hero. Yeah, and this is

993
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 9: a reminder that Protestant disn't versus Catholic.

994
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:30,319
Speaker 6: Catholicism is a fucking joke.

995
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 9: The ruling class has always had one religion counter revolution,

996
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 9: and when their asses are on the line, Protestant terrorists

997
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,439
Speaker 9: and Catholic Supreme Court justices can work together, just find

998
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 9: to make sure you can't get a fucking abortion.

999
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:42,479
Speaker 4: Yep.

1000
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 6: So you know what we have here.

1001
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:46,840
Speaker 9: And this is an interesting thing in the sense of

1002
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:50,800
Speaker 9: like like Guy Fox becoming the guy that Guy Fox

1003
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:54,280
Speaker 9: Day is about, and not like the pope is literally

1004
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 9: an icon of sort of like of kind of revolution. Yeah,

1005
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 9: that's a good point, like specifically again it's a French revolution.

1006
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 9: But it's interesting because it's like this eventually seems to

1007
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 9: kind of have backfired because.

1008
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 6: Guys Fux kind of like becomes the central figure. Right.

1009
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 9: But then, and this is something that like This article

1010
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 9: also mentions that I want to go into more. Everything

1011
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:17,919
Speaker 9: sort of changes again about this when the movie Viva

1012
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 9: Vendetta gets made.

1013
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's very strange.

1014
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 9: Yeah, and let's actually say before we dovey, can you

1015
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:25,879
Speaker 9: talk a little bit more about like what people do

1016
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,280
Speaker 9: drin drink Guy Fox day, because it's fun.

1017
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:31,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally. Yeah, So it is fun.

1018
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: It is.

1019
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 8: It's a nice like a little as burnings in effigy go,

1020
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 8: you know, a fun one at least.

1021
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 4: What we used to do I grow up in a

1022
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 4: more rural area is.

1023
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 8: We know everyone if you had like wood, or you

1024
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 8: chop down a tree, you know, on your land, or

1025
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 8: you had old furniture, you don't bring it to one

1026
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:48,760
Speaker 8: place right, big field.

1027
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 4: You pilot and you're with it's fucking high.

1028
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 8: It's like a couple of stories high by the time, damn,

1029
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 8: and then you go down. On the fifth of November,

1030
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 8: everyone gets fireworks. This is where I'll tell my fireworks

1031
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 8: story very amusingly. When I was younger, everyone in my

1032
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:06,320
Speaker 8: village club together to buy one of those fireworks displays,

1033
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 8: you know where it's like a box and you light

1034
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:09,879
Speaker 8: one fuse and they all go off. Yeah.

1035
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:10,359
Speaker 6: Oh shit.

1036
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:12,360
Speaker 8: So we've set that up, my dad and his mate

1037
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 8: and we're in the van there. We've lit it. Then

1038
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:19,680
Speaker 8: we've we're sort of standing there like grenny to go

1039
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 8: ooh ah. Unfortunately we've placed it upside down, fucking bouncing

1040
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 8: off the ground and then it flips on the side

1041
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 8: and it just went out behind the.

1042
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,839
Speaker 4: Van and it's just fucking smashing the van.

1043
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 8: So yeah, what you do is you get fireworks, you

1044
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:40,800
Speaker 8: shoot them at your friends, you shoot them in the air.

1045
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 8: You have a massive bonfire, like and it's this is

1046
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:46,280
Speaker 8: November and Britain, right, so you know days are short

1047
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 8: nights so long, everything's wet, so you're using a lot

1048
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 8: of petrol to start the bonfire, like you know, irresponsible amount.

1049
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:56,280
Speaker 4: And you just have a huge fire.

1050
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 6: And then if you have all clothes.

1051
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 8: At least, I'm sure different if you grow up in

1052
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 8: like a more urban setting, what we would do is

1053
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 8: we get our old clothes, tie the bottom of the

1054
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 8: trousers together, tie the wrists together, and then you stuffle

1055
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 8: that with straw bedding that you have, right, and then

1056
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 8: you put a head on it pet like a bag,

1057
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 8: like a plastic bag or flower bag.

1058
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 4: You draw a little face on it. And that's your guy.

1059
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:24,880
Speaker 8: You can go around to people's houses and ask for

1060
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 8: a penny for the guys. That had sort of become

1061
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 8: quite old fashioned by the time I was a child.

1062
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 8: But you make these guys and then you take them

1063
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 8: down there, and then you put them on top of

1064
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,799
Speaker 8: the bonfire before you light it, and everyone watches as

1065
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:42,279
Speaker 8: he catches on fire and burns to death. And you

1066
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 8: have toffee apples at the other thing, new apples dipped

1067
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 8: in toffee.

1068
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, I used to like it.

1069
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 8: And you have sparklers, you know, which is you know,

1070
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 8: a little sparker on a stick.

1071
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:53,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was fun. It's got something for every age.

1072
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 4: A little kid, you have a sparker.

1073
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:56,960
Speaker 8: And then once you get to you know, like ten twelve,

1074
00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 8: you can shoot fireworks at your friends and like it's

1075
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:03,240
Speaker 8: something for everyone. And I guess unless you're Catholic.

1076
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:03,879
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1077
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 9: But that's the thing though, that the Catholic hasn't been Protestantism.

1078
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 4: It's very it's secularized.

1079
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 9: Yeah, like they've been united, they've been united in the

1080
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:13,000
Speaker 9: single Greek British religion of kind of revolutions. So now

1081
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 9: everyone can celebrate Guy Fox state together.

1082
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:17,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's true.

1083
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:19,920
Speaker 8: And it's supposed to like reinforce the state and be like,

1084
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 8: if you funk with the state, we will burn you,

1085
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,279
Speaker 8: which Viva Vendetta kind of I guess messes with a

1086
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:26,759
Speaker 8: little bit.

1087
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,360
Speaker 9: But yeah, and this I think is actually a really

1088
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:33,439
Speaker 9: interesting process because I think Guy Fox now is most

1089
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 9: known for the Guy Fox mask, which was one of

1090
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:37,440
Speaker 9: the symbol and the symbol of anonymous and like one

1091
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 9: of the symbols of Yeah, but it wasn't before that, yeah.

1092
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:41,399
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1093
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 9: And parts of how this happens is so it is

1094
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 9: a character named Guy Fox in Alan Moore's view for

1095
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 9: Vendetta and viv for Vendetta is not about a Catholic

1096
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 9: plot to establish the Catholic rule in.

1097
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:54,320
Speaker 6: Britain.

1098
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1099
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 9: This is about like effectively the government of the UK

1100
00:56:57,719 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 9: is going to have in five years when they just

1101
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:02,280
Speaker 9: like completely descended to fascism.

1102
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 4: Yeah. I would not that far away now, to be honest.

1103
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1104
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:07,360
Speaker 9: Yeah. And it's about that government getting overthrown by by

1105
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:08,560
Speaker 9: an anarchist revolution.

1106
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:09,879
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1107
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 9: And and it's like this because like you know, Alan

1108
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 9: Moore is a leftist. It's made by the Wachowskis of

1109
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 9: like of Matrix fame, who are also trans leftists, We're

1110
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 9: gonna close on them actually, But you know sort of

1111
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 9: what happens to you, right, is like this mask becomes

1112
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 9: a symbol of like kind of like really altogether detached

1113
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 9: from the original figure of Guy Fox, and like through

1114
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 9: the form of this movie, like this becomes the symbol

1115
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 9: of like the twenty eleven like occupy cycle revolutions everywhere.

1116
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:34,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, and like like.

1117
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:36,440
Speaker 9: One of my most sort of like harrowing memories like

1118
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 9: coming up in that movement was of this like twenty fourteen,

1119
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 9: everything's going By twenty fourteen, everything's going to shit, right,

1120
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 9: Like the Serians of War is kicked off through Bob

1121
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:51,000
Speaker 9: Massacre in Egypt has like slaughtered a bunch of protesters,

1122
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 9: and Egypt's like just under full military rule. And there's

1123
00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:57,840
Speaker 9: a like there are like Palestinian kids like wearing Guy

1124
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 9: Fosx masks, and there's like this image that haunts me

1125
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:02,960
Speaker 9: is there's video and an image of it of this kid.

1126
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 9: Is like this kid's like seventeen, maybe like sixteen seventeen,

1127
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:09,280
Speaker 9: like wearing this mask and he walks around a cord

1128
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 9: and this really sniper just fucking shoots him the head.

1129
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 9: And there's this picture of him with like this just

1130
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:16,439
Speaker 9: like mask with a hole in it next to his face,

1131
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:18,160
Speaker 9: and he's just like lying there on the floor, and

1132
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 9: it's like one of the things that is like the

1133
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:24,560
Speaker 9: reason why the way I am now is because.

1134
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:24,760
Speaker 6: Of that shit.

1135
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 9: Yeah, and you know, in some sense, like he's become

1136
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 9: it weirdly and enduring danger to the state in ways

1137
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 9: that he would be extremely pissed about, which, yeah, very

1138
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 9: funny to me.

1139
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:35,959
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1140
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 4: He started as a graphic novel, right, it was a

1141
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 4: graphic novel before.

1142
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, it was an Alan rograph novel. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1143
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 9: And I want to close on on the wachousekis and

1144
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:48,640
Speaker 9: specifically I wanted to shout out so again like the

1145
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 9: watch House. He's made the movie Viva Vedetta, which is

1146
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 9: the thing that like popularized it and is in a

1147
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 9: lot of sense responsible for like the aesthetic of the

1148
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 9: twenty eleven revolutions. And she's found in a new project

1149
00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:02,960
Speaker 9: called Anarchist United. I'm going to quote from an interview

1150
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 9: with her quote. It will be a studio wholly owned

1151
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 9: by a foundation. It's owned by this five O one

1152
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 9: C three. The five O one C three provides grants

1153
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:12,400
Speaker 9: for artists and young filmmakers with marginalized points of view.

1154
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:14,920
Speaker 9: Hopefully those people will create stuff, bring it over to

1155
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:16,840
Speaker 9: the studio, the studio can make it, and then fund

1156
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 9: the foundation. So you create this evergreen operation that can

1157
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:23,440
Speaker 9: hopefully exist outside of the studio system if necessary. And

1158
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 9: so they're making a bunch of trans shit, like they're

1159
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:30,920
Speaker 9: adapting Gretchen Felken Martin's Manhunt, which is like the most

1160
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 9: transfem ass like book of the last like that GE's

1161
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:37,919
Speaker 9: a book about trans misogyny and it's getting We're getting

1162
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:42,240
Speaker 9: a fucking adapted. So yeah, it's really cool. And yeah,

1163
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 9: like I think, I think, I don't know that. That's

1164
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 9: the thing I want to close on is like a

1165
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 9: note of hope of like even the most deranged kind

1166
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:53,920
Speaker 9: of revolutionaries actions against the state can sometimes ricochet around

1167
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 9: four hundred years later and into like a revolutionary movement.

1168
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:02,720
Speaker 8: Bounce back in transferm films. And it's like I often

1169
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 8: think about Hunger Games, like, yeah, the Hunger Games symbol.

1170
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 8: I would love to into the lady who wrote Hunger Games.

1171
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 8: I think she's quite like doesn't like the media attention

1172
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:12,959
Speaker 8: so much from.

1173
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:13,439
Speaker 4: What I've heard.

1174
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 8: Yeah, but like that became the symbol of the like

1175
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 8: around the Milky Alliance right in Hong Kong, Myanmar obviously

1176
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 8: even in Thailand they use yeah and think it's fascinating

1177
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 8: how these things have these cultural and like, yeah, they

1178
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:31,840
Speaker 8: sort of bounce around. It becomes a bit completely different

1179
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 8: from what they were.

1180
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1181
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:35,000
Speaker 9: Well, and and you know it's this weird thing too,

1182
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:38,160
Speaker 9: because like the Hunger Games was born of Susan Collins,

1183
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:42,360
Speaker 9: like flipping channels between coverage of like the like watching

1184
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 9: the bombing in the Iraq War and reality TV.

1185
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, I remember reading that and.

1186
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:49,360
Speaker 9: You see and you watch like this rebound of this

1187
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:52,240
Speaker 9: like the intense reaction of this cultural moment to runs

1188
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 9: two thousand and three, two thousand and four, like like

1189
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 9: what of the peaks of American like kind of revolution

1190
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 9: rebounds around a bunch of like a bunch of bunch

1191
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 9: of revolutionaries of MBAR are doing the like fucking two

1192
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 9: figures thing.

1193
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, doing the cub scouts.

1194
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:08,560
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1195
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 9: And so you know, this is one of these things

1196
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 9: where like you know, who knows where where your story

1197
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 9: one day is going to end up in rebound two.

1198
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:21,440
Speaker 9: But if if if we survived this, we are promised

1199
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:23,520
Speaker 9: that this year was the beginning of the golden age

1200
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 9: of leftist transcendement. So let's let's sucking get their war.

1201
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 4: And yeah, if you're in England, enjoy burning ship tonight.

1202
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:35,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, I in America, enjoy burning ship tonight.

1203
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:58,480
Speaker 2: You wake up before dawn. This was once abnormal for you.

1204
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:01,040
Speaker 2: Bet Ever since the election, you found it harder and

1205
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:04,360
Speaker 2: harder to sleep. You just barely drifted off when the

1206
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 2: sound of shouts wafted in from across the street. Reflected

1207
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 2: sirens bounce off your bedroom window. Through a fog of sleep.

1208
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:15,160
Speaker 2: You reflect on the last few days. Voting went better

1209
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:18,120
Speaker 2: you'd feared. It's what happened in the days after that's

1210
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:21,880
Speaker 2: kept your spine at a constant eerie tingle. Several Republican

1211
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 2: led states are refusing to certify their election results. Most

1212
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:28,360
Speaker 2: analysts say the blizzard of lawsuits launched on behalf of

1213
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:31,320
Speaker 2: Trump have no chance at winning, But that didn't stop

1214
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:34,439
Speaker 2: the candidate from declaring victory and promising to carry out

1215
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 2: his own inauguration. No matter what the courts decide, it's

1216
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 2: all absurd, laughable. But you live on the border of

1217
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 2: a majority red county and your sheriffs just announced support

1218
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:48,200
Speaker 2: for the real winner of the election. Your local pd

1219
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 2: have been notably silent, while right wing provocateurs online have

1220
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 2: started circulating allegations of election fraud that the sheriff has

1221
01:02:56,240 --> 01:03:01,560
Speaker 2: promised to look into. That was yesterday to day, Just

1222
01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:04,160
Speaker 2: after five, You're jolted awake in your bed by the

1223
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:07,960
Speaker 2: sound of breaking glass and screaming. You stay low and

1224
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:10,600
Speaker 2: crawl to your front window to peep out across your

1225
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 2: yard and into the street. Before you, three police cruisers

1226
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:16,920
Speaker 2: are stacked up in front of your neighbor's house. You

1227
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:20,480
Speaker 2: can't imagine why. You know he did some volunteer canvassing

1228
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 2: a few weeks back. He volunteered at a voting precinct.

1229
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:26,680
Speaker 2: Could they be there because of that? You try a

1230
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:29,440
Speaker 2: few different search terms on social media to puzzle out

1231
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 2: the truth. It looks like a few people around the

1232
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:35,040
Speaker 2: country are reporting similar raids, but most of the posts

1233
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:38,280
Speaker 2: register is deleted before you can click on them. There's

1234
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:41,160
Speaker 2: more shouting from inside your neighbor's house, and within seconds,

1235
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:43,680
Speaker 2: a pair of birdly deputies drag him out in front

1236
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 2: and into a waiting squad car. It's dark outside, but

1237
01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 2: you think you might see blood on his face. Your

1238
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:53,240
Speaker 2: heart starts to pound. You feel the urge to call someone,

1239
01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:56,360
Speaker 2: but the cops are already here. Who else is there?

1240
01:03:56,840 --> 01:03:59,840
Speaker 2: As your mind raises, one of the officers stationed outside

1241
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:03,760
Speaker 2: turns back and looks towards your window. Recognition sparks his eyes,

1242
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 2: He sees you. He starts to walk over. You, turn back,

1243
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:10,160
Speaker 2: drop the shades, and with a pounding heart, retreat to

1244
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:13,720
Speaker 2: your bedroom. Maybe he won't knock, Maybe he just wanted

1245
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 2: to scare you. Maybe hello, everyone, hand welcome to It

1246
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:29,440
Speaker 2: could happen here. I'm Robert Evanson. Back in early twenty nineteen,

1247
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:32,320
Speaker 2: I released the first season of this show. It wasn't

1248
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 2: a daily news and politics podcast back then. Instead, it

1249
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:38,840
Speaker 2: gave a focused argument for why a new US civil

1250
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:41,760
Speaker 2: war was more frightening and possible than you might guess.

1251
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:47,160
Speaker 2: Over the last few years, that belief has become unfortunately mainstream.

1252
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:49,720
Speaker 2: It is no longer fringe or unique to talk about

1253
01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:52,080
Speaker 2: a new civil war as a real possibility. There was

1254
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:55,960
Speaker 2: a blockbuster movie earlier this year based around presenting what

1255
01:04:56,040 --> 01:05:00,320
Speaker 2: it called a realistic picture of such a possibility. Leave

1256
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 2: my thoughts on that for another time. A Marist poll

1257
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:06,640
Speaker 2: from earlier this year showed that forty seven percent of

1258
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:10,360
Speaker 2: Americans consider a second Civil War likely or very likely.

1259
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:14,120
Speaker 2: This is a massive shift considering where things were when

1260
01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:18,000
Speaker 2: I wrote this podcast series in twenty nineteen. That number

1261
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:21,200
Speaker 2: includes an expected fifty three percent of Republicans, but also

1262
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 2: forty percent of Democrats and forty one percent of independence.

1263
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:27,840
Speaker 2: Depending on how you want to see it, I've either

1264
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:30,680
Speaker 2: been vindicated as much as as possible for someone in

1265
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 2: my line of work, or I've played an outsized role

1266
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:38,320
Speaker 2: in creating a particularly dangerous eggregre in the collective unconsciousness

1267
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:42,840
Speaker 2: of our nation, effectively talking this possibility into being. I'm

1268
01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:47,080
Speaker 2: really not sure either way. My conscience has been troubled

1269
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:50,080
Speaker 2: on that matter ever since the first episode started coming out.

1270
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 2: If you'll remember, midway through the first season, we dropped

1271
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 2: an extra episode I hadn't initially intended as part of

1272
01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:59,160
Speaker 2: the run, just trying to stop people from panicking, and

1273
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:02,560
Speaker 2: ever since I've kept that as a particular goal in

1274
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:05,920
Speaker 2: my head. However you want to, you know, think about this.

1275
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 2: The first season of It Could Happen Here undoubtedly helped

1276
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:11,240
Speaker 2: to make my career today. Sophie and I run an

1277
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:14,880
Speaker 2: entire network that employs several dozen people, largely on the

1278
01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:18,600
Speaker 2: strength of that series, and yet I have no issue

1279
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:21,080
Speaker 2: telling you that I don't have any idea how election

1280
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 2: Day is going to go. You know, we've had a

1281
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:26,480
Speaker 2: lot of polls lately that seem much better for Harris.

1282
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 2: A number of pollsters are starting to shift. You know,

1283
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:31,960
Speaker 2: there's a good chance that they were hurting in the

1284
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:35,600
Speaker 2: direction of Trump because they didn't want to underestimate him again.

1285
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:37,800
Speaker 2: But there's also a good chance that you know that

1286
01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:40,439
Speaker 2: sells her poll is an outlier, and now these guys

1287
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:43,800
Speaker 2: are hurting in the direction of Harris winning because they

1288
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:46,560
Speaker 2: don't want to be embarrassed. I really have no idea

1289
01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:49,320
Speaker 2: what's going to happen. My official stance is that it's

1290
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:52,760
Speaker 2: probably pretty close to a coin flip, although maybe one

1291
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 2: that favors Harris now you know, more than one that

1292
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:59,760
Speaker 2: favors Trump. Whatever happens, I don't know what's going to

1293
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:02,200
Speaker 2: had happen, let alone what's going to happen the day after.

1294
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:04,720
Speaker 2: And as I sat down to write this episode, which

1295
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 2: is going to air on the day of the election,

1296
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:08,960
Speaker 2: I went back and forth as to where the focus

1297
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:13,400
Speaker 2: should be. I did consider doing another Don't Panic style episode.

1298
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:16,400
Speaker 2: Perhaps that would have been the call. You know, depending

1299
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:19,080
Speaker 2: on how today goes, people might either be listening to

1300
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:24,160
Speaker 2: this and you know, relaxing or listening to this and

1301
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:26,439
Speaker 2: in a heightened state of panic. You know, it really

1302
01:07:26,440 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 2: depends on where things are and where things are and

1303
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:31,840
Speaker 2: the counting of votes by this period of time. My

1304
01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:35,320
Speaker 2: reasoning on what I decided to do is pretty simple,

1305
01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:37,400
Speaker 2: which is that I think there's a good chance we

1306
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:39,960
Speaker 2: either know or have a strong inkling of how this

1307
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:42,200
Speaker 2: election is going to shake out by the time this

1308
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:44,920
Speaker 2: episode airs, And at the time I write this, the

1309
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:47,760
Speaker 2: indicators do look better for Harris than for Trump, enough

1310
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:50,480
Speaker 2: that I'd say the election leans in her direction. And

1311
01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:53,240
Speaker 2: so I think there's a lot of value in talking

1312
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:57,120
Speaker 2: about what might happen in the aftermath of that. If

1313
01:07:57,120 --> 01:08:01,560
Speaker 2: Trump tries to protest the election, and if he goes

1314
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:04,760
Speaker 2: particularly trying to protest by force, and if that's the case,

1315
01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:07,720
Speaker 2: if that's the direction he lands in, I think these

1316
01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 2: shooters that we have to worry about. And I mean

1317
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:12,760
Speaker 2: that in the figurative sense, right, you know, people who

1318
01:08:12,800 --> 01:08:15,920
Speaker 2: support him, who will put skin in the game in

1319
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:18,599
Speaker 2: order to try to force him into office. I think

1320
01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:20,920
Speaker 2: they're different than they were last time. I don't think

1321
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:23,280
Speaker 2: the threat here is that a bunch of proud boys

1322
01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:26,920
Speaker 2: and the like raid the capital next January. I think

1323
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:29,360
Speaker 2: the threat here has a lot more to do with

1324
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:32,880
Speaker 2: licensed law enforcement officers who have already declared themselves in

1325
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:35,760
Speaker 2: the tank for Trump. We ran an episode just the

1326
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:39,559
Speaker 2: other day about the Constitutional Sheriff's movement. There's a lot

1327
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:43,240
Speaker 2: to say about that. One in four law enforcement officers

1328
01:08:43,240 --> 01:08:45,800
Speaker 2: today report to a sheriff. They make twenty percent of

1329
01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:49,320
Speaker 2: all arrests in the country. Earlier this year, Wired published

1330
01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:52,120
Speaker 2: an article on the far right sheriff's ready to disrupt

1331
01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:55,880
Speaker 2: the election. It focused heavily on dar Leif, who sits

1332
01:08:55,880 --> 01:08:58,679
Speaker 2: on the board of the Constitutional Sheriffs in Peace Officers

1333
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:05,960
Speaker 2: Association ORPOA. Leif, a Trump supporter and sheriff in Berry County, Michigan,

1334
01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:08,840
Speaker 2: has spent the lead up to this election investigating the

1335
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:12,200
Speaker 2: twenty twenty election. He's tried to seize voting machines and

1336
01:09:12,280 --> 01:09:17,040
Speaker 2: run militia training courses where he offers to teach potential jurors, homeschoolers, ladies,

1337
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:20,080
Speaker 2: and gentlemen how to form an ad hoc posse, each

1338
01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:23,400
Speaker 2: member armed with quote a standard Air fifteen type military

1339
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:26,479
Speaker 2: grade weapon and at least five hundred rounds of AMMO.

1340
01:09:27,920 --> 01:09:30,800
Speaker 2: Speaking of five hundred rounds of AMMO, he probably can't

1341
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:32,000
Speaker 2: buy that from our sponsors.

1342
01:09:32,040 --> 01:09:33,120
Speaker 4: But here they are.

1343
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:47,840
Speaker 2: We're back, and we're talking about a constitutional sheriff who

1344
01:09:47,840 --> 01:09:52,000
Speaker 2: sits on the board of that organization named dar Leaf

1345
01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:55,440
Speaker 2: Leif has already promised to have his posse patrolling stations

1346
01:09:55,479 --> 01:09:58,360
Speaker 2: in Barry County to watch for evidence of fraud and

1347
01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:00,960
Speaker 2: the legal immigrant voting in what expected to be one

1348
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:04,120
Speaker 2: of the swing states this election might hinge on. Deeply

1349
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:06,920
Speaker 2: reported articles like that Wired piece have warred in my

1350
01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:10,960
Speaker 2: own personal paranoia with troubling accounts on social media. The

1351
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:13,160
Speaker 2: day before the election, which is when I wrote this,

1352
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:16,040
Speaker 2: I came across a post on the Pennsylvania subreddit from

1353
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:18,920
Speaker 2: a Philly voter titled my dad just got harassed by

1354
01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:20,679
Speaker 2: a police officer about the election.

1355
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:21,479
Speaker 4: Quote.

1356
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:23,760
Speaker 2: He was driving down the Old Lincoln Highway when a

1357
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:27,120
Speaker 2: trooper stopped him and asked him if he was voting tomorrow. Trooper,

1358
01:10:27,160 --> 01:10:28,480
Speaker 2: will you be voting tomorrow?

1359
01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:29,040
Speaker 4: Dad?

1360
01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:32,040
Speaker 2: That's none of your business, trooper. Who are you voting

1361
01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:32,719
Speaker 2: for tomorrow?

1362
01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:33,280
Speaker 4: Dad?

1363
01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:37,479
Speaker 2: None of your business, trooper, Oh, sir, you're illegal now.

1364
01:10:37,479 --> 01:10:40,120
Speaker 2: The poster's dad, who is Hispanic, stated that he didn't

1365
01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 2: have to answer that and asked if he was being detained.

1366
01:10:43,600 --> 01:10:46,880
Speaker 2: The trooper let him go, but later, according to the poster,

1367
01:10:47,200 --> 01:10:50,120
Speaker 2: this happened when my dad went to the precinct. There

1368
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:53,040
Speaker 2: were three other people there to report the exact same story.

1369
01:10:53,120 --> 01:10:56,200
Speaker 2: Election harassment at a traffic stop. Turns out the officer

1370
01:10:56,320 --> 01:10:59,480
Speaker 2: or officers doing it arn't even from Bucks County or Pennsylvania.

1371
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:03,040
Speaker 2: Their new Jersey State troopers wiled across state borders to

1372
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:06,880
Speaker 2: harass people driving down the highway. In the lead up

1373
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:09,479
Speaker 2: to the twenty twenty election, we were all deeply worried

1374
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:12,479
Speaker 2: about the dangers of different far right groups, militias, and

1375
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:15,800
Speaker 2: organizations like the Proud Boys who wore right wing death

1376
01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:19,200
Speaker 2: squad patches and threatened to throw leftists out of helicopters

1377
01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:23,200
Speaker 2: when their god Emperor won reelection. Today, most of those

1378
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:26,600
Speaker 2: figures are either a spent force or something that cannot

1379
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:30,240
Speaker 2: act on its own, reliant upon the backing of groups

1380
01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:34,040
Speaker 2: like the aforementioned constitutional sheriffs, or being empowered by a

1381
01:11:34,080 --> 01:11:36,200
Speaker 2: Trump controlled White House if they want to have any

1382
01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:40,280
Speaker 2: hope of being directly relevant again. The positive side of

1383
01:11:40,320 --> 01:11:42,920
Speaker 2: this is that it allows us to triage our fears.

1384
01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:47,200
Speaker 2: The downside is that independent paramilitary actors are in fact

1385
01:11:47,479 --> 01:11:52,120
Speaker 2: something we can easily combat as individuals and communities. Portland

1386
01:11:52,120 --> 01:11:54,759
Speaker 2: proved that when it eventually won its five year street

1387
01:11:54,800 --> 01:11:57,799
Speaker 2: battle to oust these sundry right wing groups from constant

1388
01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:01,400
Speaker 2: occupations of the city. Groups like the Proud Boys cross

1389
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:04,400
Speaker 2: the line into outright violence, it is legal to meet

1390
01:12:04,439 --> 01:12:07,639
Speaker 2: them with defensive violence, and they can and have been

1391
01:12:07,640 --> 01:12:12,120
Speaker 2: beaten this way. That's simply not something the extant left

1392
01:12:12,120 --> 01:12:15,719
Speaker 2: wing community defense organizations and political groups in this country

1393
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:20,200
Speaker 2: can say and do against. For example, law enforcement entities

1394
01:12:20,280 --> 01:12:23,600
Speaker 2: hell bent on executing a purge against the left. In

1395
01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:27,040
Speaker 2: rallies prior to the election, Trump has often merged promises

1396
01:12:27,080 --> 01:12:30,720
Speaker 2: to prosecute his political opponents US with promises to use

1397
01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:33,880
Speaker 2: ice to deport twenty million illegals and descend in the

1398
01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:37,600
Speaker 2: military or federal law enforcement to clean up cities. I

1399
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:39,320
Speaker 2: want to quote now from an article in The New

1400
01:12:39,360 --> 01:12:42,400
Speaker 2: Republic reporting on a rally earlier this year in Wilmington,

1401
01:12:42,400 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 2: North Carolina. Today, I am announcing a new plan to

1402
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:49,280
Speaker 2: end all sanctuary cities in North Carolina. And across our country,

1403
01:12:49,320 --> 01:12:52,519
Speaker 2: said Trump, no more sanctuary cities. As soon as I

1404
01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:55,479
Speaker 2: take office, we will immediately surge federal law enforcement to

1405
01:12:55,520 --> 01:12:58,000
Speaker 2: every city that is failing, which is a lot of them,

1406
01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:00,400
Speaker 2: to turn over criminal aliens. And we will hunt down

1407
01:13:00,439 --> 01:13:03,400
Speaker 2: and capture every single gang member, drug dealer, rapist, murderer,

1408
01:13:03,439 --> 01:13:06,759
Speaker 2: and migrant criminal that is being illegally harbored. The article

1409
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:09,880
Speaker 2: goes on to note Trump has previously vowed to militarize

1410
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:12,960
Speaker 2: US law enforcement to restore law and order to our cities,

1411
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:15,479
Speaker 2: which he claimed to have become cesspools of bloodshed and

1412
01:13:15,520 --> 01:13:19,000
Speaker 2: crime under President Joe Biden. Trump has argued that additional

1413
01:13:19,040 --> 01:13:23,120
Speaker 2: federal funding and forces would help supplement supposedly defunded police departments,

1414
01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:25,360
Speaker 2: but that extra help would only go to cities that

1415
01:13:25,439 --> 01:13:29,200
Speaker 2: complied with ice. Now, this is scary stuff, and it

1416
01:13:29,240 --> 01:13:32,479
Speaker 2: would necessitate some sort of response if it were to happen.

1417
01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 2: But I don't really know how to tell you to

1418
01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:38,120
Speaker 2: organize against it right now. There are so many unknowns

1419
01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:41,160
Speaker 2: that one would need to factor into any plans. I

1420
01:13:41,160 --> 01:13:44,880
Speaker 2: could theorize about underground railroads to help people avoid deportation

1421
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:48,240
Speaker 2: or to avoid being raided for their past political activism,

1422
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:50,960
Speaker 2: and I could base those theories on, for example, how

1423
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:54,120
Speaker 2: activists in Nazi Germany helped hide people from the Gestapo.

1424
01:13:54,720 --> 01:13:57,519
Speaker 2: But those heroes of yesteryear existed in a world where

1425
01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:01,160
Speaker 2: the technological tools available to the enemy were primitive beyond

1426
01:14:01,160 --> 01:14:05,280
Speaker 2: compare to what exists today. Perhaps the most chilling article

1427
01:14:05,320 --> 01:14:07,280
Speaker 2: I read this year had nothing to do with ice

1428
01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:09,760
Speaker 2: or right wing paramilitaries and everything to do with the

1429
01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:13,240
Speaker 2: technology that has been standard among law enforcement for years.

1430
01:14:13,840 --> 01:14:18,120
Speaker 2: License plate recognition systems like Motorollas dr in use optical

1431
01:14:18,240 --> 01:14:21,759
Speaker 2: character recognition technology to identify the text of a vehicle's

1432
01:14:21,800 --> 01:14:24,880
Speaker 2: license plate and put it in a searchable database. The

1433
01:14:24,920 --> 01:14:28,760
Speaker 2: policing implications of this are obvious and not all negative,

1434
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:31,400
Speaker 2: although it's far from clear if they actually work too.

1435
01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:33,880
Speaker 2: The idea is that if someone carries out a drive

1436
01:14:33,920 --> 01:14:36,040
Speaker 2: by shooting, or assaults a woman on the street, or

1437
01:14:36,040 --> 01:14:39,040
Speaker 2: is seen fleeing some other form of dangerous crime by

1438
01:14:39,040 --> 01:14:41,280
Speaker 2: someone who gets the car, make and model and maybe

1439
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:44,040
Speaker 2: the first couple letters of the plate. Dn r's database

1440
01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:47,439
Speaker 2: of more than fifteen billion vehicle sidings, built from automatic

1441
01:14:47,520 --> 01:14:50,479
Speaker 2: recordings of license plate reading cameras on police cruisers and

1442
01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:53,600
Speaker 2: tow trucks and the like might well help identify and

1443
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:56,919
Speaker 2: stop someone before they hunter kill again. Now their serious

1444
01:14:56,960 --> 01:15:00,639
Speaker 2: reason to question whether or not this system action works

1445
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:02,960
Speaker 2: this way. I'm not claiming to take a stance on

1446
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:05,160
Speaker 2: this one way or the other. I'm not an expert

1447
01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:08,040
Speaker 2: on this, but the issue here from a privacy standpoint,

1448
01:15:08,040 --> 01:15:11,719
Speaker 2: when we imagine what might happen in a future Trump

1449
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:15,600
Speaker 2: dominated government, is that you can't train a system like

1450
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:18,960
Speaker 2: this to only pay attention to license plates, nor is

1451
01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:21,960
Speaker 2: there any benefit to Motorola in doing so. In recent

1452
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:25,439
Speaker 2: investigations conducted by a private detective with access to dn

1453
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:28,160
Speaker 2: r's database for her work have shown that someone with

1454
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:31,160
Speaker 2: access to this database can search based on more than

1455
01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:34,800
Speaker 2: just license plates. They can look up signs supporting political

1456
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:37,360
Speaker 2: candidates and match them to front yards and thus to

1457
01:15:37,439 --> 01:15:41,320
Speaker 2: people's addresses. They can find individuals who were captured by

1458
01:15:41,320 --> 01:15:43,719
Speaker 2: these cameras, and there are again billions of these photos wearing,

1459
01:15:43,760 --> 01:15:48,000
Speaker 2: for example, planned parenthood shirts. This is not an idle fear.

1460
01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:51,320
Speaker 2: This is a weapon that could very easily be used

1461
01:15:51,320 --> 01:15:54,280
Speaker 2: by the enemy within months of you listening to this.

1462
01:15:54,280 --> 01:15:56,600
Speaker 2: This is also a weapon that in an event like

1463
01:15:56,640 --> 01:15:58,959
Speaker 2: the one I forecasted at the start of this episode

1464
01:15:59,280 --> 01:16:03,200
Speaker 2: could be used to crack down on activists and voters

1465
01:16:03,240 --> 01:16:05,920
Speaker 2: in counties that are loyal to Trump in some sort

1466
01:16:05,960 --> 01:16:11,040
Speaker 2: of national schism situation. Police officers already misused databases like

1467
01:16:11,080 --> 01:16:14,439
Speaker 2: this with comic regularity. In twenty twenty two, a different

1468
01:16:14,439 --> 01:16:18,280
Speaker 2: Wired investigation showed that hundreds of ICE employees and contractors

1469
01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:22,080
Speaker 2: had been caught abusing similar databases made via license plate

1470
01:16:22,160 --> 01:16:26,400
Speaker 2: recognition systems. Some had used them to stalk citizens. Stuff

1471
01:16:26,439 --> 01:16:29,760
Speaker 2: like this pairs forebodingly with threats made by emboldened pro

1472
01:16:29,840 --> 01:16:33,639
Speaker 2: Trump cops earlier this election season. I'm talking about something

1473
01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:36,719
Speaker 2: that happened in September when Ohio Sheriff of Portage County

1474
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:40,280
Speaker 2: Bruce Szukowski posted a screenshot of a Fox News segment

1475
01:16:40,360 --> 01:16:43,800
Speaker 2: criticizing the current president over his immigration record and the

1476
01:16:43,840 --> 01:16:47,920
Speaker 2: impact of Haitian migrants on Springfield, Ohio, from an article

1477
01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:51,519
Speaker 2: in The ap by Michael Rubacam likening people in the

1478
01:16:51,640 --> 01:16:55,000
Speaker 2: US illegally to human locusts Zukowski wrote on a personal

1479
01:16:55,080 --> 01:16:58,000
Speaker 2: Facebook account and his campaign's account, when people ask me,

1480
01:16:58,040 --> 01:17:00,960
Speaker 2: what's going to happen if the flip flopping last Hyena wins,

1481
01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:03,639
Speaker 2: I say, write down all the addresses of the people

1482
01:17:03,680 --> 01:17:07,320
Speaker 2: who had their signs in their yards. That way, Zukowski continued,

1483
01:17:07,320 --> 01:17:10,000
Speaker 2: when migrants need places to live, we're already have the

1484
01:17:10,040 --> 01:17:14,040
Speaker 2: addresses of their new families who supported their arrival. Now,

1485
01:17:14,240 --> 01:17:17,200
Speaker 2: as the full context of that statement makes clear, Zukowski

1486
01:17:17,320 --> 01:17:20,160
Speaker 2: was not technically threatening Harris voters. But it's pretty much

1487
01:17:20,160 --> 01:17:22,599
Speaker 2: impossible for me to take that as anything but a threat,

1488
01:17:22,800 --> 01:17:25,920
Speaker 2: just one dressed up enough for plausible deniability and an

1489
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:29,000
Speaker 2: environment where the future ability of Zukowski and those like

1490
01:17:29,080 --> 01:17:32,720
Speaker 2: him to punish Democrats is still unclear. And we're going

1491
01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:47,320
Speaker 2: to talk more about that. But first here's another ad break. Now,

1492
01:17:47,479 --> 01:17:49,880
Speaker 2: I don't mean to make it sound like that there's

1493
01:17:49,880 --> 01:17:52,799
Speaker 2: nothing that can be done to fight against technological tools

1494
01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:55,760
Speaker 2: in the arsenal of repression like this, but I have

1495
01:17:55,800 --> 01:17:58,200
Speaker 2: no doubt that if the Republicans do take total power,

1496
01:17:58,280 --> 01:18:00,720
Speaker 2: they will read any positive election for them as a

1497
01:18:00,720 --> 01:18:03,080
Speaker 2: mandate to punish the left and purge the people. Trump

1498
01:18:03,200 --> 01:18:06,400
Speaker 2: is already repeatedly called the enemy within, and I worry

1499
01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:08,559
Speaker 2: that in the event of any sort of national schism,

1500
01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:11,240
Speaker 2: either where there's an extended period of time where Trump

1501
01:18:11,280 --> 01:18:13,679
Speaker 2: is claiming to have been the winner, or if there's

1502
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:17,040
Speaker 2: a situation where he just has himself inaugurated in Florida

1503
01:18:17,080 --> 01:18:19,639
Speaker 2: and you have a bunch of these counties and states

1504
01:18:19,680 --> 01:18:22,280
Speaker 2: around the country sign up for Trump, that the first

1505
01:18:22,360 --> 01:18:24,680
Speaker 2: thing we'll see law enforcement do in these areas is

1506
01:18:24,720 --> 01:18:27,760
Speaker 2: punished the enemy within, especially if they declare themselves on

1507
01:18:27,800 --> 01:18:30,240
Speaker 2: a war footing with the rest of the country. These

1508
01:18:30,240 --> 01:18:34,000
Speaker 2: are all things that are maybe not the likeliest possibility here,

1509
01:18:34,040 --> 01:18:36,200
Speaker 2: but they are something to keep in mind, and they

1510
01:18:36,280 --> 01:18:39,320
Speaker 2: are something that represents a real danger at this point.

1511
01:18:39,360 --> 01:18:41,439
Speaker 2: I don't think anyone who's paid attention to the kinds

1512
01:18:41,439 --> 01:18:44,479
Speaker 2: of thing the Republicans have been saying lately can deny that.

1513
01:18:45,120 --> 01:18:48,080
Speaker 2: Now it is important to remember that whatever plan these

1514
01:18:48,120 --> 01:18:51,760
Speaker 2: people try won't work as well as they hope. We've

1515
01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:53,920
Speaker 2: been watching them for years, and if there's one thing

1516
01:18:53,960 --> 01:18:55,880
Speaker 2: you know about all of the people around Trump, it's

1517
01:18:55,880 --> 01:18:58,040
Speaker 2: that they're fuck ups. That doesn't mean they can't win,

1518
01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:00,880
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean they're not dangerous. It just means that

1519
01:19:00,920 --> 01:19:03,840
Speaker 2: they're going to make mistakes. Now, those mistakes aren't going

1520
01:19:03,880 --> 01:19:06,280
Speaker 2: to be survivable for everybody that we care about, which

1521
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:09,439
Speaker 2: is something that should be on your mind. Bruce and

1522
01:19:09,520 --> 01:19:12,240
Speaker 2: most of the Trump aligned police, local and federal still

1523
01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:15,080
Speaker 2: feel a need to couch their threats in deniable terms, though,

1524
01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:17,759
Speaker 2: but many on the far right have been less careful.

1525
01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:20,320
Speaker 2: And one thing we've seen is this election has lurched

1526
01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:22,040
Speaker 2: closer to its conclusion.

1527
01:19:22,600 --> 01:19:23,360
Speaker 6: Is a lot of.

1528
01:19:23,280 --> 01:19:27,479
Speaker 2: People, people like particularly Elon Musk, have absolutely taken their

1529
01:19:27,520 --> 01:19:28,400
Speaker 2: masks off.

1530
01:19:28,439 --> 01:19:28,639
Speaker 4: Now.

1531
01:19:28,720 --> 01:19:30,160
Speaker 2: I think this had a lot to do with the

1532
01:19:30,160 --> 01:19:32,680
Speaker 2: fact that Trump was looking more like the favorite a

1533
01:19:32,720 --> 01:19:35,759
Speaker 2: couple of weeks ago, and they felt like after years

1534
01:19:35,800 --> 01:19:38,519
Speaker 2: of having to do what Bruce did, having to cover

1535
01:19:38,680 --> 01:19:42,360
Speaker 2: up their outright eliminationist impulses, they no longer had to

1536
01:19:42,439 --> 01:19:45,840
Speaker 2: do that now. Obviously, some influential people on the far

1537
01:19:45,920 --> 01:19:48,160
Speaker 2: right have been masked off from much longer, and this

1538
01:19:48,240 --> 01:19:50,479
Speaker 2: is something that should concern you as well. One of

1539
01:19:50,560 --> 01:19:53,320
Speaker 2: the most sinister examples of this is Jack Pisobic, a

1540
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:57,840
Speaker 2: former US Navy intelligence officer whose recent book Unhumans is

1541
01:19:57,880 --> 01:20:01,160
Speaker 2: framed as a secret history of communist allusions. From an

1542
01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:04,519
Speaker 2: article in Mother Jones quote they they being. Pisobic and

1543
01:20:04,560 --> 01:20:06,760
Speaker 2: his co author claim for as long as there have

1544
01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:08,840
Speaker 2: been beauty and truth, love and life, there have also

1545
01:20:08,880 --> 01:20:11,400
Speaker 2: been the ugly liars who hate and kill. And these

1546
01:20:11,479 --> 01:20:16,920
Speaker 2: people of anti civilization have always gone by different names communists, socialists, leftists,

1547
01:20:16,960 --> 01:20:19,519
Speaker 2: and progressives. The pair contend that these folks, be they

1548
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:22,679
Speaker 2: the Bolsheviks of Russia or the BLM activists of this decade,

1549
01:20:22,920 --> 01:20:26,600
Speaker 2: are better called unhumans. It's a hard edged message. The

1550
01:20:26,600 --> 01:20:29,519
Speaker 2: foes of conservatism are not merely misguided souls pushing the

1551
01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:33,200
Speaker 2: wrong policies, but people who seek to annihilate civilization. They

1552
01:20:33,280 --> 01:20:36,280
Speaker 2: rob and kill. Pisobic and Lyssek, his co author, maintain

1553
01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:38,400
Speaker 2: they don't believe what they say. They don't care about

1554
01:20:38,439 --> 01:20:40,760
Speaker 2: winning debates. They don't even want a quality. They just

1555
01:20:40,800 --> 01:20:43,839
Speaker 2: want an excuse to destroy everything. They want an excuse

1556
01:20:43,920 --> 01:20:47,599
Speaker 2: to destroy you. Now, Jack has been a laughable character

1557
01:20:47,640 --> 01:20:50,320
Speaker 2: for much of his career, but his outright eliminationist rhetoric

1558
01:20:50,360 --> 01:20:52,920
Speaker 2: has had an audience in the Howls of Power. Jd

1559
01:20:53,040 --> 01:20:55,640
Speaker 2: Vance himself provided a blurb for the book, claiming it

1560
01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:58,880
Speaker 2: shows us what to do to fight back. Steve Bannon

1561
01:20:58,920 --> 01:21:02,519
Speaker 2: meanwhile wrote the forward. Now, I started this episode with

1562
01:21:02,520 --> 01:21:05,519
Speaker 2: a fictional vignette imagining what might happen if Trump chooses

1563
01:21:05,560 --> 01:21:08,120
Speaker 2: to contest the election without right force, and he might.

1564
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:10,519
Speaker 2: The good news is I think that such an effort

1565
01:21:10,560 --> 01:21:13,160
Speaker 2: would be doomed to fail if he sticks to the courts.

1566
01:21:13,200 --> 01:21:15,800
Speaker 2: Trying to refuse certifications and kick the election to the

1567
01:21:15,880 --> 01:21:18,880
Speaker 2: House is a better chance at succeeding, and it is

1568
01:21:18,920 --> 01:21:21,960
Speaker 2: possible that isolated thefts of ballots and arrests of poll

1569
01:21:21,960 --> 01:21:25,120
Speaker 2: workers could play into a broader effort like this, but

1570
01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:28,000
Speaker 2: doing so is a big risk. My gut tells me

1571
01:21:28,040 --> 01:21:31,400
Speaker 2: that moving so openly resorting to violence first creates a

1572
01:21:31,439 --> 01:21:34,519
Speaker 2: situation in which the Biden administration and the incoming Harris

1573
01:21:34,560 --> 01:21:37,439
Speaker 2: administration would have to respond with force. There would have

1574
01:21:37,520 --> 01:21:40,479
Speaker 2: to be consequences, and given that they currently control the

1575
01:21:40,560 --> 01:21:43,080
Speaker 2: arsenal of state power, I think they would win even

1576
01:21:43,080 --> 01:21:45,400
Speaker 2: in the event that you have all of these sheriffs

1577
01:21:45,439 --> 01:21:48,599
Speaker 2: break for Trump in some sort of insurgent situation develop.

1578
01:21:49,360 --> 01:21:52,800
Speaker 2: If that were to happen, having backed this insurgency would

1579
01:21:52,800 --> 01:21:55,120
Speaker 2: put Trump in real jeopardy, and it would put a

1580
01:21:55,120 --> 01:21:57,360
Speaker 2: lot of his backers in jeopardy as well. It might

1581
01:21:57,360 --> 01:22:01,719
Speaker 2: even force consequences for provocateurs like Sobic and even Elon Musk.

1582
01:22:02,040 --> 01:22:04,920
Speaker 2: Backing an outright violent coup is almost the only thing

1583
01:22:04,960 --> 01:22:08,599
Speaker 2: I can imagine putting Musk behind bars. There are pieces

1584
01:22:08,680 --> 01:22:10,720
Speaker 2: of this logic train that I find comforting, but there

1585
01:22:10,720 --> 01:22:13,879
Speaker 2: are also pieces that aren't. Many of us, me included,

1586
01:22:14,000 --> 01:22:16,840
Speaker 2: made the mistake of assuming that after January sixth, twenty

1587
01:22:16,840 --> 01:22:20,840
Speaker 2: twenty one, Trumpism might finally be a spent force. He'd

1588
01:22:20,880 --> 01:22:23,960
Speaker 2: gambled too much and he'd lost too big. But despite

1589
01:22:23,960 --> 01:22:27,120
Speaker 2: the existential threat, he presented himself as being The Democratic

1590
01:22:27,160 --> 01:22:30,559
Speaker 2: Party and the Merrick Garland Justice Department largely chose mercy

1591
01:22:30,600 --> 01:22:34,080
Speaker 2: for the main players. I suspect anything short of armed

1592
01:22:34,120 --> 01:22:36,920
Speaker 2: insurrection will see a similar reaction from them this year.

1593
01:22:37,240 --> 01:22:39,760
Speaker 2: I don't believe Musk's fears that the Democrats will throw

1594
01:22:39,800 --> 01:22:42,439
Speaker 2: him in prison if Harris Winds are real, or that

1595
01:22:42,520 --> 01:22:45,960
Speaker 2: instead as his own predictive justification for the violence he'd

1596
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:50,000
Speaker 2: like to support against his political enemies. That desire won't

1597
01:22:50,000 --> 01:22:53,080
Speaker 2: go away just because Trump rides off into the sunset

1598
01:22:53,280 --> 01:22:56,080
Speaker 2: and the Republican Party has to go searching for another feurer.

1599
01:22:56,600 --> 01:22:59,040
Speaker 2: If we defer their dream, it will simply sit under

1600
01:22:59,040 --> 01:23:02,479
Speaker 2: the floorboards and waiting for the next opportunity, and that

1601
01:23:02,520 --> 01:23:06,439
Speaker 2: won't take long. Kamala will inherit a broken system and

1602
01:23:06,479 --> 01:23:09,240
Speaker 2: a world where climate change and conflict are on the rise.

1603
01:23:09,760 --> 01:23:12,719
Speaker 2: Low information voters less literate by the day, will continue

1604
01:23:12,760 --> 01:23:15,599
Speaker 2: to swing back and forth. The feral beast we've heard

1605
01:23:15,600 --> 01:23:18,799
Speaker 2: growling all year long will surge forward, all the hungrier

1606
01:23:18,880 --> 01:23:21,800
Speaker 2: for being made to wait. If you've kept up with

1607
01:23:21,840 --> 01:23:24,600
Speaker 2: our election coverage this year, you've probably noticed that we

1608
01:23:24,680 --> 01:23:27,479
Speaker 2: haven't endorsed any candidates, and I haven't wasted any time

1609
01:23:27,520 --> 01:23:30,439
Speaker 2: advising our listeners to vote. I happen to be someone

1610
01:23:30,439 --> 01:23:33,559
Speaker 2: who does think a Harris win represents substantially less harm

1611
01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:36,000
Speaker 2: than a Trump win to a lot of people. But

1612
01:23:36,080 --> 01:23:38,040
Speaker 2: I don't think that the folks who listen to our

1613
01:23:38,080 --> 01:23:41,320
Speaker 2: podcast are waiting for me to make that decision for them.

1614
01:23:41,520 --> 01:23:44,000
Speaker 2: I don't agree with the anti electoralist side of things

1615
01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:46,679
Speaker 2: on every matter, but one place where I do agree

1616
01:23:46,680 --> 01:23:49,960
Speaker 2: with them is that a Harris win won't fix what's broken.

1617
01:23:50,400 --> 01:23:53,120
Speaker 2: It represents the historic equivalent of jinking out of the

1618
01:23:53,120 --> 01:23:56,559
Speaker 2: way and a dog fight. Necessary maybe, but not something

1619
01:23:56,560 --> 01:24:02,400
Speaker 2: that guarantees future security. Hey everybody, Robert here, I've changed locations,

1620
01:24:02,400 --> 01:24:04,360
Speaker 2: so sorry if it sounds a little bit different. I'm

1621
01:24:04,400 --> 01:24:08,280
Speaker 2: currently in a cabin waiting out the election trying not

1622
01:24:08,360 --> 01:24:10,559
Speaker 2: to think too much about it. But I wrote a

1623
01:24:10,600 --> 01:24:12,920
Speaker 2: new ending to this because I just thought that what

1624
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:17,320
Speaker 2: I had there was incomplete. Now, when it comes to

1625
01:24:17,400 --> 01:24:20,679
Speaker 2: what does work in the long run to beat these people,

1626
01:24:21,240 --> 01:24:25,559
Speaker 2: my mind is drawn back constantly to perhaps an odd place.

1627
01:24:26,000 --> 01:24:29,799
Speaker 2: A twenty eleven article in the scientific journal Nature titled

1628
01:24:29,840 --> 01:24:31,880
Speaker 2: the Evolution of over Confidence.

1629
01:24:32,640 --> 01:24:32,800
Speaker 4: Now.

1630
01:24:32,800 --> 01:24:34,960
Speaker 2: The gist is that this was an attempt by two

1631
01:24:35,000 --> 01:24:39,519
Speaker 2: scientists to solve the evolutionary mystery of the Dunning Krueger effect.

1632
01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:42,680
Speaker 2: It seems to be extraordinarily common for people who know

1633
01:24:42,920 --> 01:24:46,680
Speaker 2: very little about a subject to overestimate their competence in it.

1634
01:24:47,320 --> 01:24:50,200
Speaker 2: This is probably why so many Americans think they could

1635
01:24:50,240 --> 01:24:53,719
Speaker 2: win a fistfight with a bear. Such a phenomenon seems

1636
01:24:53,840 --> 01:24:58,599
Speaker 2: profoundly maladaptive. How could overestimating our abilities provide any kind

1637
01:24:58,640 --> 01:25:02,720
Speaker 2: of benefit to evolutionary fitness? The explanation devised in this

1638
01:25:02,800 --> 01:25:06,960
Speaker 2: paper is that overconfidence is beneficial more often than not, because,

1639
01:25:06,960 --> 01:25:10,840
Speaker 2: in a hypothetical situation where two organisms are competing for

1640
01:25:10,920 --> 01:25:13,920
Speaker 2: a resource and evenly matched in the event of a fight,

1641
01:25:14,439 --> 01:25:17,559
Speaker 2: the organism that is more confident is likelier to reach

1642
01:25:17,640 --> 01:25:20,920
Speaker 2: for that resource if they do. One of three things

1643
01:25:20,920 --> 01:25:24,080
Speaker 2: can happen. They fight and win, they fight and lose,

1644
01:25:24,880 --> 01:25:28,799
Speaker 2: or the other organism backs away insecure in its chances

1645
01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:32,120
Speaker 2: of victory and they get that resource without even fighting

1646
01:25:32,160 --> 01:25:36,720
Speaker 2: for it. Such a scenario favors the overconfident individual so

1647
01:25:36,840 --> 01:25:39,040
Speaker 2: much so that it might explain why many of us

1648
01:25:39,080 --> 01:25:41,960
Speaker 2: seem to have a build in tendency to irrationally judge

1649
01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:43,280
Speaker 2: our own capabilities.

1650
01:25:43,960 --> 01:25:44,280
Speaker 8: Now.

1651
01:25:44,439 --> 01:25:47,320
Speaker 2: I first became aware of this research almost a decade

1652
01:25:47,360 --> 01:25:50,200
Speaker 2: ago when I started work on my first published book,

1653
01:25:50,360 --> 01:25:53,400
Speaker 2: A Brief History of Vice. At the time, I found

1654
01:25:53,439 --> 01:25:56,519
Speaker 2: it interesting because it posited a likely adaptive basis for

1655
01:25:56,600 --> 01:25:59,120
Speaker 2: a kind of bad behavior, and that's what my whole

1656
01:25:59,120 --> 01:26:01,800
Speaker 2: book was about. In the years since, though, I've come

1657
01:26:01,840 --> 01:26:05,200
Speaker 2: to see it as the fundamental underlying explanation for how

1658
01:26:05,280 --> 01:26:09,920
Speaker 2: fascists win. It's well established that fascist regimes and individuals

1659
01:26:09,960 --> 01:26:12,960
Speaker 2: themselves are bad at threat modeling. We can bring up

1660
01:26:13,000 --> 01:26:16,200
Speaker 2: examples as varied as the invasion of the Soviet Union,

1661
01:26:16,280 --> 01:26:18,519
Speaker 2: or that proud boy who got shot in Portland after

1662
01:26:18,560 --> 01:26:22,519
Speaker 2: picking the wrong fight, and of course January sixth. There

1663
01:26:22,560 --> 01:26:25,320
Speaker 2: are many examples to choose from, but as often as

1664
01:26:25,360 --> 01:26:28,599
Speaker 2: they fail, the success of these movements is also based

1665
01:26:28,840 --> 01:26:32,160
Speaker 2: entirely on their willingness to dare and the fact that

1666
01:26:32,200 --> 01:26:35,519
Speaker 2: liberals in particular are often too frightened and cautious to

1667
01:26:35,560 --> 01:26:39,080
Speaker 2: confront them. We are still dealing with Donald Trump and

1668
01:26:39,120 --> 01:26:41,680
Speaker 2: his foot soldiers in twenty twenty four because no one

1669
01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:44,080
Speaker 2: quite had the guts to confront him to the degree

1670
01:26:44,120 --> 01:26:47,360
Speaker 2: he needed to be confronted. Doing so would have meant

1671
01:26:47,400 --> 01:26:51,640
Speaker 2: taking unprecedented legal steps and risking right wing backlash that

1672
01:26:51,880 --> 01:26:55,280
Speaker 2: likely would have included acts of terrorism. In the end,

1673
01:26:55,600 --> 01:26:58,320
Speaker 2: most people with any say in the matter chose to

1674
01:26:58,360 --> 01:27:02,679
Speaker 2: either back away or pull their punches until after the election.

1675
01:27:03,600 --> 01:27:06,360
Speaker 2: On other episodes of this show, our correspondent Mia and

1676
01:27:06,439 --> 01:27:09,200
Speaker 2: I have talked about the actual path destroying the far

1677
01:27:09,320 --> 01:27:13,160
Speaker 2: rights organizational and electoral base. We are up against a

1678
01:27:13,200 --> 01:27:17,719
Speaker 2: coalition a fused car dealers, supplement salesman, multi level marketing goals,

1679
01:27:18,000 --> 01:27:21,559
Speaker 2: sheriffs taking blatantly unconstitutional stances on their own power, and

1680
01:27:21,680 --> 01:27:25,600
Speaker 2: churches that, by any decent measure lost their justification for

1681
01:27:25,680 --> 01:27:29,439
Speaker 2: tax exempt status years ago. These are all forces that

1682
01:27:29,479 --> 01:27:31,920
Speaker 2: can be targeted and neutered through the courts in the

1683
01:27:32,040 --> 01:27:36,400
Speaker 2: legislative system with consistent activism and pressure applied to elected

1684
01:27:36,479 --> 01:27:40,320
Speaker 2: leaders sitting here. I think that the odds the Democrats

1685
01:27:40,360 --> 01:27:44,200
Speaker 2: embrace such as strategy are exceptionally low, but we do

1686
01:27:44,320 --> 01:27:47,559
Speaker 2: have to try to make them because when you're sitting

1687
01:27:47,600 --> 01:27:50,840
Speaker 2: across from a monster, one that's fattened on over confidence,

1688
01:27:51,040 --> 01:27:53,880
Speaker 2: and you see him start to reach again, the only

1689
01:27:53,960 --> 01:27:57,439
Speaker 2: same response is to swallow your fear and take a swing.

1690
01:28:17,439 --> 01:28:20,240
Speaker 1: Welcome to it could happen here. On today's episode, we

1691
01:28:20,320 --> 01:28:24,519
Speaker 1: have Robert Evans, Harrison Davis Mio Wong, James Stout, Margaret Kildoy,

1692
01:28:24,920 --> 01:28:28,800
Speaker 1: and I'm Sophie Lichterman. This is the post election episode.

1693
01:28:29,200 --> 01:28:34,960
Speaker 2: Robert, Yeah, it happened here, is happening has continued to

1694
01:28:35,040 --> 01:28:35,599
Speaker 2: happen here.

1695
01:28:36,080 --> 01:28:36,559
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1696
01:28:36,680 --> 01:28:37,080
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1697
01:28:37,120 --> 01:28:40,080
Speaker 2: This has been a podcast from the beginning about things

1698
01:28:40,120 --> 01:28:43,439
Speaker 2: falling apart, which is a great business to be in,

1699
01:28:43,600 --> 01:28:46,880
Speaker 2: I guess because they keep doing that. I want to

1700
01:28:46,960 --> 01:28:50,519
Speaker 2: start by kind of talking about yesterday's episode, the one

1701
01:28:50,560 --> 01:28:52,519
Speaker 2: that I dropped before the election because I thought a

1702
01:28:52,520 --> 01:28:55,639
Speaker 2: lot about like what to put out on the day

1703
01:28:55,840 --> 01:28:59,719
Speaker 2: of the election, and I kind of made the call,

1704
01:29:00,040 --> 01:29:03,599
Speaker 2: which I don't know regrets the wrong word. I made

1705
01:29:03,600 --> 01:29:05,880
Speaker 2: the call yesterday that like, okay, we've got this new

1706
01:29:05,920 --> 01:29:09,120
Speaker 2: poll from Selzer, people are starting to feel like, you know,

1707
01:29:09,160 --> 01:29:11,679
Speaker 2: some of this late breaking news is good for Harris.

1708
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:14,479
Speaker 2: Some of the posters are hurting back in that direction.

1709
01:29:15,040 --> 01:29:17,960
Speaker 2: I probably should do something to kind of like pump

1710
01:29:18,040 --> 01:29:21,639
Speaker 2: the breaks on enthusiasm and remind people that even if

1711
01:29:21,640 --> 01:29:23,880
Speaker 2: she wins, there's still a lot of dangers out there, right,

1712
01:29:23,920 --> 01:29:25,799
Speaker 2: because that's what I saw as like the big threat

1713
01:29:25,800 --> 01:29:28,840
Speaker 2: model is Harris is likely to win, and then people

1714
01:29:28,880 --> 01:29:31,840
Speaker 2: are going to forget about these constitutional sheriffs and all

1715
01:29:31,840 --> 01:29:34,160
Speaker 2: these different kind of like right wing gules that will

1716
01:29:34,160 --> 01:29:37,479
Speaker 2: still be a problem if we don't take care of them, right,

1717
01:29:37,520 --> 01:29:39,920
Speaker 2: if we don't do anything to actually like hamper their

1718
01:29:39,960 --> 01:29:43,840
Speaker 2: ability to exercise power. So I wrote that episode with

1719
01:29:43,880 --> 01:29:47,280
Speaker 2: that in mind, and it turns out I was being

1720
01:29:47,320 --> 01:29:50,480
Speaker 2: overly optimistic, and I think it was being overly optimistic

1721
01:29:50,520 --> 01:29:53,720
Speaker 2: in part. You know, I tend towards pessimism, which is

1722
01:29:53,720 --> 01:29:56,559
Speaker 2: why this show exists in the first place. You Know,

1723
01:29:56,720 --> 01:29:59,000
Speaker 2: one of the things that's happened is we've gotten bigger

1724
01:29:59,040 --> 01:30:01,920
Speaker 2: and more people have listened, and is whenever like shit

1725
01:30:02,000 --> 01:30:04,760
Speaker 2: happens in the world, we get bombarded on the subreddit,

1726
01:30:04,800 --> 01:30:07,800
Speaker 2: and just like in emails to myself with people saying

1727
01:30:07,880 --> 01:30:11,120
Speaker 2: versions of like I don't know what to do, using

1728
01:30:11,479 --> 01:30:15,400
Speaker 2: language that's like very worrying sometimes about how hopeless they feel.

1729
01:30:15,800 --> 01:30:18,320
Speaker 2: And so I've kind of felt a growing responsibility to

1730
01:30:18,439 --> 01:30:22,080
Speaker 2: like spread calm and hope. And I think that merged

1731
01:30:22,240 --> 01:30:25,200
Speaker 2: to a degree with the you know, after my dad died,

1732
01:30:25,240 --> 01:30:28,759
Speaker 2: this desire to like not just be sad and de doomer,

1733
01:30:29,200 --> 01:30:31,360
Speaker 2: and I think it led me to have I guess,

1734
01:30:31,560 --> 01:30:35,240
Speaker 2: more of an optimistic like I forced myself into an

1735
01:30:35,320 --> 01:30:38,760
Speaker 2: unreasonably optimistic frame of mind just because I thought that

1736
01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:42,160
Speaker 2: was the responsible thing to do. And I guess I'm

1737
01:30:42,240 --> 01:30:45,400
Speaker 2: kind of like evaluating that now, like what should I

1738
01:30:45,439 --> 01:30:47,559
Speaker 2: have done differently, you know, if I'd been in a

1739
01:30:47,600 --> 01:30:50,719
Speaker 2: more logical state of mind. And I guess the answer

1740
01:30:50,760 --> 01:30:53,200
Speaker 2: is I don't know how to be in a more

1741
01:30:53,280 --> 01:30:56,400
Speaker 2: logical state of mind. Like the problem is there's so much,

1742
01:30:56,880 --> 01:30:59,520
Speaker 2: you know, you've got this hyper object of a political

1743
01:30:59,560 --> 01:31:02,759
Speaker 2: real life happening in our country in this very dark

1744
01:31:02,800 --> 01:31:05,120
Speaker 2: direction you're also trying to deal with and I'm sure

1745
01:31:05,120 --> 01:31:07,920
Speaker 2: everyone listening is dealing with versions of this on their own.

1746
01:31:08,439 --> 01:31:11,120
Speaker 2: You know, people you care about getting sick and dying

1747
01:31:11,200 --> 01:31:14,240
Speaker 2: and you know, losing jobs or having to start new

1748
01:31:14,280 --> 01:31:17,240
Speaker 2: ones and embarking, you know, starting to become a parent

1749
01:31:17,320 --> 01:31:20,080
Speaker 2: or whatever. Like everybody's got all these massive things in

1750
01:31:20,120 --> 01:31:23,640
Speaker 2: their own lives, and like trying to keep a completely

1751
01:31:23,960 --> 01:31:29,759
Speaker 2: rational perspective on the political happenings in this country while

1752
01:31:30,080 --> 01:31:33,200
Speaker 2: remaining unaffected from like the way in which your own

1753
01:31:33,280 --> 01:31:36,840
Speaker 2: life is going to color your optimism and biases is

1754
01:31:37,720 --> 01:31:41,400
Speaker 2: probably a hopeless cause to some extent, which I guess

1755
01:31:41,439 --> 01:31:44,000
Speaker 2: is part of why we're here to try and as

1756
01:31:44,000 --> 01:31:50,360
Speaker 2: a collective offer people our most reasonable, sort of averaged

1757
01:31:50,439 --> 01:31:52,920
Speaker 2: opinion about what's going to happen. So I guess that's

1758
01:31:52,920 --> 01:31:55,120
Speaker 2: what we're going to try to do here. That's what

1759
01:31:55,120 --> 01:31:56,160
Speaker 2: I've got to start with.

1760
01:31:56,960 --> 01:32:00,880
Speaker 1: I mean, hope is illogical, but it is necessary, and

1761
01:32:01,120 --> 01:32:04,519
Speaker 1: I think that's really where we have to start. I'm

1762
01:32:04,560 --> 01:32:08,759
Speaker 1: going to toss over to Margaret real quick about hope.

1763
01:32:09,040 --> 01:32:11,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Margaret, fix this for you.

1764
01:32:12,160 --> 01:32:15,160
Speaker 1: Well, just to say, just to say, I woke up

1765
01:32:15,200 --> 01:32:17,120
Speaker 1: today with some hope, and I think a lot of

1766
01:32:17,120 --> 01:32:19,720
Speaker 1: that is from my friendship with Margaret, and I don't

1767
01:32:19,720 --> 01:32:21,760
Speaker 1: think there's a better person to talk about that than her.

1768
01:32:21,960 --> 01:32:24,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, Margaret, I appreciate that.

1769
01:32:24,280 --> 01:32:25,960
Speaker 10: I often make the joke about the fact that I

1770
01:32:26,080 --> 01:32:28,160
Speaker 10: named myself killed Joy in my twenties and then became

1771
01:32:28,160 --> 01:32:32,400
Speaker 10: a professional optimist. But that and I think that actually

1772
01:32:32,439 --> 01:32:33,880
Speaker 10: it could happen here, and I think folks here do

1773
01:32:33,920 --> 01:32:38,680
Speaker 10: it really well. Sometimes determination is almost sometimes the right

1774
01:32:38,720 --> 01:32:41,960
Speaker 10: word instead of hope, right because or like optimism is

1775
01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:43,880
Speaker 10: always the right word because you're like, well, bad things

1776
01:32:43,960 --> 01:32:46,120
Speaker 10: are happening, and they're going to happen, and they're going

1777
01:32:46,160 --> 01:32:48,479
Speaker 10: to keep happening, right, And so sometimes we look at

1778
01:32:48,520 --> 01:32:51,559
Speaker 10: like like climate change, for example, which is the broader problem.

1779
01:32:51,840 --> 01:32:53,439
Speaker 10: You know, you're like, well, no matter what we do,

1780
01:32:53,520 --> 01:32:56,240
Speaker 10: it's going to get worse. And so the immediate electoral

1781
01:32:56,280 --> 01:32:58,519
Speaker 10: problem in front of us, like, no matter what happens,

1782
01:32:58,560 --> 01:33:00,960
Speaker 10: it's going to get worse before it gets better. But

1783
01:33:01,040 --> 01:33:06,800
Speaker 10: we need to stay aware of that and stop pretending

1784
01:33:06,880 --> 01:33:09,800
Speaker 10: like the bad things aren't coming. Will then still looking

1785
01:33:09,800 --> 01:33:12,160
Speaker 10: at saying like, well what can we do? And for me,

1786
01:33:12,600 --> 01:33:14,200
Speaker 10: the thing that I focus on I have a therapist

1787
01:33:14,240 --> 01:33:18,040
Speaker 10: friend who talks about how agency is the opposite of trauma,

1788
01:33:18,200 --> 01:33:20,320
Speaker 10: you know, and that the more that we act with

1789
01:33:20,439 --> 01:33:23,720
Speaker 10: agency while bad things are happening the less that they

1790
01:33:24,040 --> 01:33:27,680
Speaker 10: destroy us emotionally, and so I think that focusing on

1791
01:33:28,200 --> 01:33:32,160
Speaker 10: what can we do is just incredibly useful and necessary.

1792
01:33:32,360 --> 01:33:34,400
Speaker 6: And also the fact that.

1793
01:33:34,320 --> 01:33:36,800
Speaker 10: Things are in turmoil right now and that means lots

1794
01:33:36,840 --> 01:33:38,599
Speaker 10: of bad things are happening and the old status quo

1795
01:33:38,720 --> 01:33:41,160
Speaker 10: is gone. We saw that with the defeat of the Democrats.

1796
01:33:41,200 --> 01:33:42,800
Speaker 10: Their whole thing is that they doubled down on the

1797
01:33:42,840 --> 01:33:45,679
Speaker 10: old status quo, and people don't want that. People want

1798
01:33:45,880 --> 01:33:49,679
Speaker 10: something different, and Trump offers something different, a very horrible

1799
01:33:49,840 --> 01:33:53,559
Speaker 10: nightmare thing that's different, and the Democrats did not offer

1800
01:33:53,640 --> 01:33:56,559
Speaker 10: something different. And so I actually think, in a weird way,

1801
01:33:56,640 --> 01:33:59,480
Speaker 10: we are in a good position to on a grassroots

1802
01:33:59,600 --> 01:34:04,360
Speaker 10: level build something different and say that people want something different.

1803
01:34:04,360 --> 01:34:08,920
Speaker 10: And I think that by working towards something different and better, well,

1804
01:34:08,920 --> 01:34:12,160
Speaker 10: it's the best way to keep our own spirits up.

1805
01:34:12,280 --> 01:34:12,439
Speaker 8: You know.

1806
01:34:13,680 --> 01:34:18,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks mac buy, I absolutely agree, James. What's your

1807
01:34:18,840 --> 01:34:19,960
Speaker 1: perspective here.

1808
01:34:20,240 --> 01:34:23,360
Speaker 8: Yeah, Like it goes without saying that like Trump's proposed

1809
01:34:23,400 --> 01:34:27,439
Speaker 8: border policies are horrific, and his propos migration policies are horrific.

1810
01:34:27,640 --> 01:34:28,880
Speaker 4: Houses were also bad.

1811
01:34:29,880 --> 01:34:32,280
Speaker 8: I think like that that doesn't mean that that trumps

1812
01:34:32,280 --> 01:34:35,400
Speaker 8: are acceptable or the same they're not. But also, like

1813
01:34:35,960 --> 01:34:38,360
Speaker 8: I think, having spent as much time as I have

1814
01:34:38,439 --> 01:34:40,479
Speaker 8: with refugees, having spent as much time as I have

1815
01:34:40,680 --> 01:34:43,479
Speaker 8: with people who have gone through things that are horrific

1816
01:34:43,560 --> 01:34:48,479
Speaker 8: and like state hostility, state violent, civil war, et cetera, Like.

1817
01:34:48,520 --> 01:34:49,840
Speaker 6: I have a lot of hope that.

1818
01:34:49,760 --> 01:34:54,800
Speaker 8: Like, like Margaret said, right, there's this quote from Di Riti.

1819
01:34:54,880 --> 01:34:58,400
Speaker 8: It probably isn't real about how like we're not afraid

1820
01:34:58,439 --> 01:35:00,519
Speaker 8: of ruins, and we've lived in ruins our lives, and

1821
01:35:00,560 --> 01:35:03,599
Speaker 8: we'll build our future in the ruins of the old world.

1822
01:35:03,600 --> 01:35:07,759
Speaker 8: But like, when I think about the next four years,

1823
01:35:08,040 --> 01:35:10,760
Speaker 8: like the state will be absent or hostile right now,

1824
01:35:10,760 --> 01:35:13,720
Speaker 8: absent at best and hostile at worst. It's been that

1825
01:35:13,760 --> 01:35:16,599
Speaker 8: way at the border for a very long time. Yeah,

1826
01:35:16,640 --> 01:35:19,080
Speaker 8: And we've built our little community and our little world.

1827
01:35:19,160 --> 01:35:23,679
Speaker 8: And like when I am sad, when I'm despairing, when

1828
01:35:23,680 --> 01:35:26,680
Speaker 8: I'm scared, I think about the things that we did

1829
01:35:26,760 --> 01:35:30,160
Speaker 8: in the last year, Right, we fed tens of thousands

1830
01:35:30,240 --> 01:35:34,680
Speaker 8: of people by ourselves, and in doing that, we demonstrated

1831
01:35:34,680 --> 01:35:36,880
Speaker 8: how powerful we are in the absence of the state,

1832
01:35:37,640 --> 01:35:40,639
Speaker 8: because the state wasn't there, or the state was actively hostile.

1833
01:35:40,720 --> 01:35:43,400
Speaker 8: We were able to step in and from nothing, we

1834
01:35:43,400 --> 01:35:45,679
Speaker 8: were able to build something that took care of people

1835
01:35:45,720 --> 01:35:47,559
Speaker 8: who needed to be taken care of, and that like

1836
01:35:47,600 --> 01:35:50,559
Speaker 8: we're not special or unique, you know, we didn't have

1837
01:35:50,640 --> 01:35:53,760
Speaker 8: like some incredible structure here before. People just showed up

1838
01:35:53,800 --> 01:35:57,840
Speaker 8: to help people, and like more people will need to

1839
01:35:57,880 --> 01:36:00,880
Speaker 8: do that now, and that mean that there are more

1840
01:36:00,920 --> 01:36:03,960
Speaker 8: people in difficult places who need help, right, But that

1841
01:36:04,040 --> 01:36:06,120
Speaker 8: doesn't mean that you can't do it. If we can

1842
01:36:06,160 --> 01:36:11,040
Speaker 8: do it, you can do it. And having done it

1843
01:36:11,080 --> 01:36:15,799
Speaker 8: has made me less. I just I'm not as scared

1844
01:36:15,840 --> 01:36:17,240
Speaker 8: as I would be if I felt like I was

1845
01:36:17,240 --> 01:36:19,400
Speaker 8: on my own, or if I felt like that we

1846
01:36:19,560 --> 01:36:22,640
Speaker 8: can't deal with this, because we can, and I know

1847
01:36:22,680 --> 01:36:26,280
Speaker 8: that because we have and I want Obviously that's something

1848
01:36:26,320 --> 01:36:27,160
Speaker 8: we're going to focus on.

1849
01:36:27,240 --> 01:36:30,839
Speaker 4: Right we have between now and the middle of January.

1850
01:36:31,080 --> 01:36:32,880
Speaker 8: I have no idea how many weeks or days that is,

1851
01:36:32,920 --> 01:36:36,479
Speaker 8: but it's a lot of time to organize, and it's

1852
01:36:36,520 --> 01:36:39,240
Speaker 8: a lot of time to put aside some of the

1853
01:36:39,240 --> 01:36:41,720
Speaker 8: differences we might have, some of the petty disagreements we

1854
01:36:41,800 --> 01:36:43,719
Speaker 8: might have, some of the shit that people have said

1855
01:36:43,720 --> 01:36:47,520
Speaker 8: on Twitter dot com and like get together and organize

1856
01:36:47,600 --> 01:36:51,320
Speaker 8: and build a way of taking care of each other

1857
01:36:51,360 --> 01:36:54,679
Speaker 8: that doesn't rely on the state, because that's always been

1858
01:36:54,680 --> 01:36:57,320
Speaker 8: what we needed and we need it now even more so.

1859
01:36:58,160 --> 01:37:03,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, speaking of of what we need, now here's some ads.

1860
01:37:03,840 --> 01:37:05,679
Speaker 1: Oh, Robert total tone?

1861
01:37:07,160 --> 01:37:09,320
Speaker 4: What else was?

1862
01:37:10,320 --> 01:37:11,320
Speaker 6: Just can't stop him?

1863
01:37:11,400 --> 01:37:13,479
Speaker 4: That was just physics. There was no other way for

1864
01:37:13,520 --> 01:37:15,479
Speaker 4: that to go. An object in motion.

1865
01:37:15,800 --> 01:37:19,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that was like the oceans forming after the

1866
01:37:19,400 --> 01:37:22,240
Speaker 2: moon hit the Earth. Well, whatever happened to make oceans?

1867
01:37:22,240 --> 01:37:24,080
Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know how oceans came about.

1868
01:37:24,240 --> 01:37:29,000
Speaker 8: Even they call him Robert tectonic plate effants.

1869
01:37:38,720 --> 01:37:41,519
Speaker 1: All right, welcome back to it could happen here where

1870
01:37:41,520 --> 01:37:44,799
Speaker 1: it is happening here, And Robert still can't help himself

1871
01:37:44,840 --> 01:37:48,160
Speaker 1: to make strange ad transitions. Garrison, what do you got

1872
01:37:48,160 --> 01:37:48,519
Speaker 1: for us?

1873
01:37:49,200 --> 01:37:50,080
Speaker 6: Yeah? I don't know.

1874
01:37:50,160 --> 01:37:55,280
Speaker 7: I I feel like I am not an optimist, and

1875
01:37:55,320 --> 01:37:56,800
Speaker 7: I also put a lot of work into not being

1876
01:37:56,840 --> 01:38:01,200
Speaker 7: a doomer. I try to be pretty realistic about a

1877
01:38:01,200 --> 01:38:04,200
Speaker 7: whole bunch of my like thoughts and analysis on this

1878
01:38:04,280 --> 01:38:09,160
Speaker 7: sort of thing, and I tend towards survival as kind

1879
01:38:09,200 --> 01:38:12,360
Speaker 7: of when I'm my main priorities, And I'd like to

1880
01:38:12,360 --> 01:38:13,760
Speaker 7: talk a little bit about kind of some of what

1881
01:38:13,800 --> 01:38:17,160
Speaker 7: we actually saw on election night and some maybe some

1882
01:38:17,160 --> 01:38:22,160
Speaker 7: small like misconceptions going around, mainly this kind of idea

1883
01:38:22,800 --> 01:38:26,120
Speaker 7: that the country has like wildly swung to the right,

1884
01:38:26,240 --> 01:38:29,839
Speaker 7: like people have like overwhelmingly, like more so than ever before,

1885
01:38:30,320 --> 01:38:33,639
Speaker 7: have have voted for like far right figures, have voted

1886
01:38:33,680 --> 01:38:37,240
Speaker 7: for far right like bills, basically wanting this this complete

1887
01:38:37,240 --> 01:38:40,320
Speaker 7: like nationalistic takeover. If you look at you know, their presidency,

1888
01:38:40,400 --> 01:38:44,639
Speaker 7: the Supreme Court, the House, the Senate, and I mean

1889
01:38:44,760 --> 01:38:48,280
Speaker 7: the final count is still coming in. We are recording

1890
01:38:48,360 --> 01:38:51,559
Speaker 7: this Wednesday afternoon. It's noon on the West coast right now,

1891
01:38:51,920 --> 01:38:55,000
Speaker 7: and Trump has almost the same number of votes as

1892
01:38:55,000 --> 01:38:56,680
Speaker 7: he gotten twenty twenty. I think it's a little bit

1893
01:38:56,760 --> 01:39:00,360
Speaker 7: under at this point. Now there is some demographic just

1894
01:39:00,400 --> 01:39:03,360
Speaker 7: certain groups may have leaned more towards or against Trump

1895
01:39:03,640 --> 01:39:07,360
Speaker 7: than in past elections, but the final like averaged popular

1896
01:39:07,439 --> 01:39:10,439
Speaker 7: vote number is at this point pretty much the same.

1897
01:39:10,960 --> 01:39:11,160
Speaker 6: Now.

1898
01:39:11,240 --> 01:39:14,519
Speaker 7: Kind of why this has happened, why he's still kind

1899
01:39:14,520 --> 01:39:17,160
Speaker 7: of sweeping all of these swing states is we've kind

1900
01:39:17,160 --> 01:39:19,799
Speaker 7: of had a collapse of trust in the Democratic Party,

1901
01:39:20,200 --> 01:39:22,679
Speaker 7: and you could attribute this to a lot of things.

1902
01:39:23,040 --> 01:39:25,280
Speaker 7: I don't think it's a single thing. It is obviously

1903
01:39:25,320 --> 01:39:28,040
Speaker 7: a confluence of events. I think one of one of

1904
01:39:28,080 --> 01:39:30,320
Speaker 7: the big things is like nine percent inflation is kind

1905
01:39:30,320 --> 01:39:32,920
Speaker 7: of hard to beat if people, to Margaret's point earlier,

1906
01:39:33,080 --> 01:39:37,040
Speaker 7: they're looking for something different, and Harris meaningfully was not

1907
01:39:37,080 --> 01:39:41,439
Speaker 7: offering anything like substantially different. Was She's the VP, right,

1908
01:39:41,439 --> 01:39:43,880
Speaker 7: Like it's she has that legacy. I don't think Biden

1909
01:39:43,920 --> 01:39:46,439
Speaker 7: could have done much more to alter the inflation, but

1910
01:39:46,560 --> 01:39:50,040
Speaker 7: like that that doesn't matter. People people feel this and

1911
01:39:50,080 --> 01:39:52,519
Speaker 7: that's and that's very strong, and there's other reasons why

1912
01:39:52,560 --> 01:39:55,840
Speaker 7: people have kind of lost faith in the Democratic Party

1913
01:39:55,920 --> 01:39:58,679
Speaker 7: or aren't as willing to come out in as high

1914
01:39:58,760 --> 01:40:02,799
Speaker 7: numbers as we saw back in twenty twenty. And crucially,

1915
01:40:02,880 --> 01:40:04,680
Speaker 7: but back in twenty twenty, in a lot of the

1916
01:40:04,680 --> 01:40:07,200
Speaker 7: swing states, the vote was very close. Although the popular

1917
01:40:07,280 --> 01:40:09,519
Speaker 7: vote swung pretty heavily towards Biden in a lot of

1918
01:40:09,520 --> 01:40:11,680
Speaker 7: the crucial swing states, in some of the states he

1919
01:40:11,720 --> 01:40:14,120
Speaker 7: was only like twenty thousand votes ahead, Like it was

1920
01:40:15,160 --> 01:40:16,719
Speaker 7: a pretty tight race in some of those states.

1921
01:40:16,960 --> 01:40:17,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1922
01:40:17,840 --> 01:40:19,960
Speaker 7: Now, the other thing I'm kind of seeing, which kind

1923
01:40:19,960 --> 01:40:22,760
Speaker 7: of reflects this idea that like the country hasn't wildly

1924
01:40:22,960 --> 01:40:26,520
Speaker 7: like the average people haven't wildly become a more fascist.

1925
01:40:26,960 --> 01:40:30,400
Speaker 7: It's that even in states that have elected Trump, they

1926
01:40:30,439 --> 01:40:34,160
Speaker 7: have also passed like a decent number of progressive initiatives,

1927
01:40:34,200 --> 01:40:38,360
Speaker 7: including abortion rights. Voters in Arizona and Missouri approved ballid

1928
01:40:38,360 --> 01:40:43,240
Speaker 7: initiatives that will serve to protect abortion rights until further

1929
01:40:43,360 --> 01:40:47,760
Speaker 7: laws are in the books. And in Maryland, in Montana, Nevada,

1930
01:40:47,800 --> 01:40:51,519
Speaker 7: and New York where abortion is legal, and Colorado, where

1931
01:40:51,520 --> 01:40:55,840
Speaker 7: there's no laws restricting abortion, they all passed measures that

1932
01:40:56,040 --> 01:40:59,800
Speaker 7: enshrine those rights into law. Now, Florida unfortunately was not

1933
01:41:00,080 --> 01:41:03,320
Speaker 7: to do this due to the super majority rules. Even

1934
01:41:03,320 --> 01:41:05,919
Speaker 7: though majority of people did vote for this in Florida,

1935
01:41:06,360 --> 01:41:09,000
Speaker 7: they did not reach the sixty percent threshold, so that

1936
01:41:09,040 --> 01:41:10,480
Speaker 7: did not pass in Florida.

1937
01:41:10,200 --> 01:41:13,600
Speaker 2: But fifty seven percent very close close, and it was

1938
01:41:13,640 --> 01:41:14,719
Speaker 2: an outright majority.

1939
01:41:14,800 --> 01:41:17,120
Speaker 7: Yeah, So people are willing to vote for these types

1940
01:41:17,160 --> 01:41:19,760
Speaker 7: of things, even if they're unwilling to vote for a

1941
01:41:19,800 --> 01:41:22,160
Speaker 7: Democrat at the top of the ticket, and like, this

1942
01:41:22,200 --> 01:41:24,519
Speaker 7: is something that is worth considering when trying to figure

1943
01:41:24,560 --> 01:41:27,920
Speaker 7: out what exactly happened here and consider why people have

1944
01:41:28,000 --> 01:41:30,600
Speaker 7: kind of lost faith in the Democratic Party as a

1945
01:41:30,680 --> 01:41:34,280
Speaker 7: reliable institution to improve their lives or represent the things

1946
01:41:34,280 --> 01:41:36,960
Speaker 7: that they believe in, the Gaza issue being kind of

1947
01:41:36,960 --> 01:41:40,439
Speaker 7: the prime example of this in the past year. One

1948
01:41:40,479 --> 01:41:42,960
Speaker 7: other thing I was thinking about this morning when trying

1949
01:41:42,960 --> 01:41:45,880
Speaker 7: to kind of look forward and imagine what the next

1950
01:41:45,920 --> 01:41:49,519
Speaker 7: four years would look like, specifically with the concern of

1951
01:41:49,960 --> 01:41:53,559
Speaker 7: figures like Elon Musk and RFK Junior being put into

1952
01:41:54,000 --> 01:41:57,800
Speaker 7: pretty important positions of government. Right the idea that RFK

1953
01:41:57,920 --> 01:41:59,519
Speaker 7: Junior is going to be in charge of the CDC

1954
01:41:59,720 --> 01:42:02,800
Speaker 7: and Herman public health policies for the country is a

1955
01:42:02,920 --> 01:42:06,720
Speaker 7: very worrying prospect. Having Elon Musk in a senior advisory

1956
01:42:06,800 --> 01:42:11,839
Speaker 7: role in some kind of governmental department of efficiency doesn't

1957
01:42:11,880 --> 01:42:15,400
Speaker 7: sound great. But as I was having my coffee next

1958
01:42:15,439 --> 01:42:17,679
Speaker 7: to a beautiful river in the mountains of North Georgia

1959
01:42:17,720 --> 01:42:21,519
Speaker 7: this morning, I was thinking about Steve Bannon because my

1960
01:42:21,600 --> 01:42:25,200
Speaker 7: brain is just fucked up like that, but specifically how

1961
01:42:25,240 --> 01:42:28,240
Speaker 7: Trump used Steve Bannon to get elected back in twenty sixteen,

1962
01:42:28,760 --> 01:42:32,160
Speaker 7: even though Bannon's actual tenure at the White House was

1963
01:42:32,240 --> 01:42:36,600
Speaker 7: quite short lived for whatever reasons, like personality clashes with

1964
01:42:36,640 --> 01:42:40,040
Speaker 7: Trump happen all the time and he loses friends and

1965
01:42:40,080 --> 01:42:43,519
Speaker 7: advisors at a pretty frequent rate. And I think because

1966
01:42:43,600 --> 01:42:47,040
Speaker 7: Trump is just like petty and you know, ablest and

1967
01:42:47,360 --> 01:42:50,800
Speaker 7: a bad guy, he might just find RFK Junior and

1968
01:42:50,880 --> 01:42:54,360
Speaker 7: Elon Musk annoying to be around. Considering rf K Junior's

1969
01:42:54,400 --> 01:42:59,599
Speaker 7: speech impediment and Elon Musk's apparent neurodiversity, Trump just might

1970
01:42:59,640 --> 01:43:02,439
Speaker 7: not want to be around them. So, even though he

1971
01:43:02,479 --> 01:43:06,280
Speaker 7: did utilize both these figures to get elected, albeit slightly

1972
01:43:06,360 --> 01:43:08,640
Speaker 7: later on in the campaign, it took a while for

1973
01:43:08,760 --> 01:43:10,880
Speaker 7: Musk to kind of worm his way into Trump's orbit.

1974
01:43:11,760 --> 01:43:15,360
Speaker 7: I am not convinced that they will have direct access

1975
01:43:15,439 --> 01:43:17,160
Speaker 7: to Trump for very long.

1976
01:43:17,320 --> 01:43:17,479
Speaker 8: Now.

1977
01:43:18,040 --> 01:43:20,120
Speaker 7: This could happen, but if you look at Steve Bannon,

1978
01:43:20,160 --> 01:43:22,800
Speaker 7: who was similarly a worrying figure, he did not last

1979
01:43:22,960 --> 01:43:26,840
Speaker 7: very long beside Trump. So something like this could happen now,

1980
01:43:26,880 --> 01:43:29,240
Speaker 7: I don't think it'll happen the exact same way. Elon

1981
01:43:29,360 --> 01:43:31,960
Speaker 7: Musk has been positioning himself to have the government be

1982
01:43:32,280 --> 01:43:35,800
Speaker 7: reliant on him for contracting, and he'll probably continue to

1983
01:43:35,840 --> 01:43:39,160
Speaker 7: exist in some form in that regard, But in terms

1984
01:43:39,200 --> 01:43:42,040
Speaker 7: of his like direct influence on the White House and

1985
01:43:42,200 --> 01:43:47,040
Speaker 7: controlling sectors of government, this won't necessarily be a four

1986
01:43:47,120 --> 01:43:51,280
Speaker 7: year thing. I think that is most of what I

1987
01:43:51,439 --> 01:43:54,120
Speaker 7: had on this topic.

1988
01:43:53,880 --> 01:43:54,800
Speaker 6: I guess. I guess.

1989
01:43:54,800 --> 01:43:58,280
Speaker 7: The other thing is, like it turns out in Harris's

1990
01:43:58,280 --> 01:44:02,040
Speaker 7: efforts to kind of court independent and court like Republicans

1991
01:44:02,479 --> 01:44:04,719
Speaker 7: that largely that largely failed.

1992
01:44:05,000 --> 01:44:06,679
Speaker 2: Massive failure, massive failure.

1993
01:44:06,760 --> 01:44:08,400
Speaker 7: I mean again, it turns out when you have a

1994
01:44:08,439 --> 01:44:11,320
Speaker 7: party that's running as kind of like a mini fascist party,

1995
01:44:11,320 --> 01:44:13,040
Speaker 7: and then you have another party that's running as just

1996
01:44:13,080 --> 01:44:13,920
Speaker 7: a conservative party.

1997
01:44:13,960 --> 01:44:15,240
Speaker 4: We've got Dick Cheney.

1998
01:44:15,600 --> 01:44:18,720
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's not a solid opposition party. Why like this

1999
01:44:18,800 --> 01:44:21,320
Speaker 7: hasn't worked for like the second time in a row.

2000
01:44:21,600 --> 01:44:24,680
Speaker 7: The stats are almost identical to twenty twenty on this

2001
01:44:24,760 --> 01:44:28,679
Speaker 7: issue of Republicans voting for the Republican Party. In fact,

2002
01:44:28,840 --> 01:44:32,880
Speaker 7: it was slightly fewer of them voted Republican back in

2003
01:44:32,920 --> 01:44:35,880
Speaker 7: twenty twenty. More of them voted Republican in twenty twenty four.

2004
01:44:36,000 --> 01:44:37,439
Speaker 7: I think it's by about one percent.

2005
01:44:37,920 --> 01:44:42,680
Speaker 1: Trying to court the conservative vote means that the Conservatives

2006
01:44:42,720 --> 01:44:44,680
Speaker 1: are going to vote for conservative.

2007
01:44:44,240 --> 01:44:46,320
Speaker 7: Maybe we should have an actual opposition party if you

2008
01:44:46,320 --> 01:44:47,720
Speaker 7: believe in electoral politics.

2009
01:44:48,479 --> 01:44:48,759
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2010
01:44:48,880 --> 01:44:51,559
Speaker 2: No, I mean, like the lesson people should take from

2011
01:44:51,560 --> 01:44:55,479
Speaker 2: trump Ism Trump did not get where he is by

2012
01:44:55,560 --> 01:45:00,800
Speaker 2: courting the conservative vote. Now Trump took over the Republican

2013
01:45:00,880 --> 01:45:04,840
Speaker 2: Party and made it the Trump Party, and yeah, like

2014
01:45:05,120 --> 01:45:08,760
Speaker 2: that is what worked, right, Like, and that's that's the

2015
01:45:08,840 --> 01:45:12,360
Speaker 2: actual lesson. Like the reason why Dick Cheney was fucking

2016
01:45:12,439 --> 01:45:16,880
Speaker 2: doing appearances with Kamala Harris was because conservatives, what we

2017
01:45:16,880 --> 01:45:20,040
Speaker 2: had known as conservatives prior to Trump coming to power,

2018
01:45:20,920 --> 01:45:24,559
Speaker 2: largely are out of the picture, right, Like the new

2019
01:45:24,640 --> 01:45:28,640
Speaker 2: crop of guys are all weirdos that have molded themselves

2020
01:45:28,720 --> 01:45:32,960
Speaker 2: in the image of Trump since his rise to power. Right, Yeah,

2021
01:45:33,000 --> 01:45:35,799
Speaker 2: And one of the things that is, like, the lesson

2022
01:45:35,840 --> 01:45:38,439
Speaker 2: is not we need to make our own Trump, although

2023
01:45:38,439 --> 01:45:40,679
Speaker 2: by god, some people are going to take that lesson

2024
01:45:40,680 --> 01:45:43,000
Speaker 2: out of this. The lesson is that, sure, you have

2025
01:45:43,080 --> 01:45:46,760
Speaker 2: to come to people with a vision, right, Like, you

2026
01:45:46,800 --> 01:45:49,120
Speaker 2: don't come to people by saying, well, what if we

2027
01:45:49,160 --> 01:45:51,439
Speaker 2: put a Republican in our cabinet? Right, what if it's

2028
01:45:51,479 --> 01:45:53,680
Speaker 2: basically the same as this last thing that you're not

2029
01:45:53,720 --> 01:45:56,320
Speaker 2: really that happy with, but instead with more Cheney.

2030
01:45:56,560 --> 01:45:59,000
Speaker 6: Right, it turns out that doesn't drive food or enthusiasm.

2031
01:45:59,200 --> 01:46:01,920
Speaker 2: And hey, like that, you know, I'm hitting the Libs

2032
01:46:01,920 --> 01:46:04,599
Speaker 2: pretty hard because this is like the most catastrophic failure

2033
01:46:04,640 --> 01:46:07,720
Speaker 2: of any political party in living memory. Right, so they

2034
01:46:07,720 --> 01:46:10,080
Speaker 2: do deserve to be hit. But it's not like the

2035
01:46:10,160 --> 01:46:14,559
Speaker 2: left accomplished anything right, either electorally or otherwise. Right, there

2036
01:46:14,600 --> 01:46:18,920
Speaker 2: is no organized national left wing movement that is worth

2037
01:46:19,000 --> 01:46:22,320
Speaker 2: talking about in any kind of building power way, Like

2038
01:46:22,400 --> 01:46:23,759
Speaker 2: it simply doesn't exist.

2039
01:46:24,000 --> 01:46:29,120
Speaker 1: And ignoring the blind loyalty that people have for Trump

2040
01:46:30,000 --> 01:46:34,160
Speaker 1: was a mistake. Yeah, not considering like targeting that audience.

2041
01:46:34,280 --> 01:46:37,160
Speaker 7: It doesn't seem like all of the January sixth ads

2042
01:46:37,240 --> 01:46:38,280
Speaker 7: did anything at all.

2043
01:46:38,360 --> 01:46:39,639
Speaker 1: No, did fuck all.

2044
01:46:39,720 --> 01:46:43,479
Speaker 7: I mean, in fact, in fact statistically they did they

2045
01:46:43,479 --> 01:46:46,040
Speaker 7: did nothing. They did nothing to hurt Trump. Yeah, right,

2046
01:46:46,560 --> 01:46:49,880
Speaker 7: if Trump gets essentially the same total number of votes,

2047
01:46:50,280 --> 01:46:53,720
Speaker 7: they didn't do anything to hurt him like that, Like

2048
01:46:53,720 --> 01:46:56,080
Speaker 7: that strategy was not that was not successful.

2049
01:46:56,160 --> 01:46:57,679
Speaker 6: Yeah, you have to offer something.

2050
01:46:57,760 --> 01:47:01,800
Speaker 7: And just the large swath of like electoral nihilism that

2051
01:47:01,560 --> 01:47:05,160
Speaker 7: that the Democratic Party keeps keeps running up against continues

2052
01:47:05,200 --> 01:47:06,840
Speaker 7: to be its most like existential threat.

2053
01:47:07,400 --> 01:47:10,400
Speaker 1: Robert Garre and I at the RNC talked to a

2054
01:47:10,479 --> 01:47:15,040
Speaker 1: variety of people who did not give a flying fuck

2055
01:47:15,320 --> 01:47:16,719
Speaker 1: about Trump's record.

2056
01:47:16,760 --> 01:47:17,280
Speaker 6: Well, of course not.

2057
01:47:17,280 --> 01:47:21,120
Speaker 1: All they cared about was no, they had blind loyalty

2058
01:47:21,160 --> 01:47:24,120
Speaker 1: timp I posted this on Twitter dot com, and I'm

2059
01:47:24,120 --> 01:47:27,400
Speaker 1: thinking specifically of the woman that was like compared Trump's

2060
01:47:27,640 --> 01:47:31,320
Speaker 1: evil for lack of a better word, oh, sometimes he's ridiculous,

2061
01:47:31,760 --> 01:47:36,480
Speaker 1: like my husband, and that blind loyalty and the Democrats

2062
01:47:36,479 --> 01:47:39,679
Speaker 1: weren't gonna fucking flip those people. That was not gonna happen.

2063
01:47:40,080 --> 01:47:43,880
Speaker 1: They took a gamble, wasn't even really a gamble. They

2064
01:47:43,880 --> 01:47:46,040
Speaker 1: took a gamble on the wrong crowd, and like that

2065
01:47:46,040 --> 01:47:49,880
Speaker 1: that's not effective, but you know, it's not really here

2066
01:47:49,960 --> 01:47:52,800
Speaker 1: or there at this point. It happened kind of like

2067
01:47:53,040 --> 01:47:56,040
Speaker 1: now what, Yeah, we haven't really heard from me much,

2068
01:47:56,120 --> 01:48:00,559
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna I'm gonna shoot over to me A yeah, and.

2069
01:48:00,520 --> 01:48:02,840
Speaker 9: I mean I think I think where I'm at is

2070
01:48:02,880 --> 01:48:05,920
Speaker 9: that Okay, we're in this moment. Are one of our

2071
01:48:05,960 --> 01:48:10,600
Speaker 9: biggest advantages is that we're not the Democrats. Right, this

2072
01:48:10,680 --> 01:48:13,280
Speaker 9: has been a fairly comprehensive referendum on the failure of

2073
01:48:13,280 --> 01:48:18,840
Speaker 9: the Democrats to offer anything. We also like screwed up

2074
01:48:19,000 --> 01:48:20,400
Speaker 9: offering a better world.

2075
01:48:20,640 --> 01:48:20,760
Speaker 7: Right.

2076
01:48:21,000 --> 01:48:22,200
Speaker 9: This is you know, I look, if you look at

2077
01:48:22,200 --> 01:48:23,800
Speaker 9: what happened to twenty twenty, and you look at the

2078
01:48:23,800 --> 01:48:25,960
Speaker 9: places that we actually sort of like I mean took

2079
01:48:26,040 --> 01:48:27,719
Speaker 9: power as a strong word, but like there are places

2080
01:48:27,720 --> 01:48:31,280
Speaker 9: where we ran the cops out and we screwed up

2081
01:48:31,320 --> 01:48:36,760
Speaker 9: making those places like a world that was like ideologically

2082
01:48:36,800 --> 01:48:40,080
Speaker 9: compelling it off to spread, and like we're not going

2083
01:48:40,120 --> 01:48:42,200
Speaker 9: to get like a third do over of that, right.

2084
01:48:42,280 --> 01:48:44,960
Speaker 9: We have to be able to sort of like when

2085
01:48:45,000 --> 01:48:46,479
Speaker 9: the moment arise, we have to be able to actually

2086
01:48:46,520 --> 01:48:49,120
Speaker 9: create a world that is better enough than this one

2087
01:48:50,040 --> 01:48:54,479
Speaker 9: that we can move. But that's not impossible. Yeah, I

2088
01:48:54,520 --> 01:48:56,519
Speaker 9: think what we have right now is we have a

2089
01:48:56,560 --> 01:48:59,040
Speaker 9: period of time before Trump takes power, and we have

2090
01:48:59,200 --> 01:49:02,479
Speaker 9: this time to washer beasts. We have this time to organize,

2091
01:49:02,560 --> 01:49:06,640
Speaker 9: We have this time to plan and I think of

2092
01:49:06,800 --> 01:49:08,200
Speaker 9: the at least part of what we need to do,

2093
01:49:08,240 --> 01:49:10,960
Speaker 9: and we'll we'll get into this more like in other

2094
01:49:11,000 --> 01:49:14,160
Speaker 9: episodes and later too. You know, there's there's there's the

2095
01:49:14,160 --> 01:49:17,000
Speaker 9: obvious tasks of organization. There's getting people involved in things,

2096
01:49:17,000 --> 01:49:19,560
Speaker 9: there's getting into meetings. I also think, and this is

2097
01:49:19,600 --> 01:49:24,080
Speaker 9: something that's I think easier to do, like literally immediately,

2098
01:49:24,320 --> 01:49:27,280
Speaker 9: is that we've been fighting completely defensively on the cultural

2099
01:49:27,360 --> 01:49:29,400
Speaker 9: front for four years and it's been a complete disaster,

2100
01:49:30,000 --> 01:49:33,000
Speaker 9: and we need to have a large scale cultural offensive.

2101
01:49:33,000 --> 01:49:37,120
Speaker 9: There needs to be something other than fucking TikTok Mormonism,

2102
01:49:37,320 --> 01:49:39,519
Speaker 9: like we need we need some alternatives to trad wife ship.

2103
01:49:39,560 --> 01:49:45,639
Speaker 9: We need alternatives to this like terrible, like the fucking

2104
01:49:45,680 --> 01:49:48,519
Speaker 9: influencer sphere. There needs to be something else. We need

2105
01:49:48,560 --> 01:49:53,639
Speaker 9: to create that very very fast, anarchist tradwife stuff like Christ.

2106
01:49:56,000 --> 01:49:57,200
Speaker 6: That's what's gonna say us.

2107
01:49:57,320 --> 01:50:00,719
Speaker 2: All right, yeah, everybody, everybody go buy a sun dress

2108
01:50:00,920 --> 01:50:02,200
Speaker 2: right now, get out.

2109
01:50:02,040 --> 01:50:04,040
Speaker 4: There, both of you to assume we don't have them,

2110
01:50:04,080 --> 01:50:05,320
Speaker 4: Robot and.

2111
01:50:05,240 --> 01:50:07,679
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna pull Robert everything. Speaking of buying things,

2112
01:50:07,680 --> 01:50:22,160
Speaker 1: it's time for our last ad break. All right, we're back,

2113
01:50:22,240 --> 01:50:23,880
Speaker 1: and I do want to get I do want to

2114
01:50:23,920 --> 01:50:27,000
Speaker 1: get into, you know, a little bit more specifics of

2115
01:50:27,080 --> 01:50:30,240
Speaker 1: what can we do now, And I just want to

2116
01:50:30,280 --> 01:50:33,599
Speaker 1: say a fucking lot. The cards are on the table.

2117
01:50:33,800 --> 01:50:35,439
Speaker 6: It's going to be a busy four years.

2118
01:50:35,680 --> 01:50:36,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know.

2119
01:50:36,439 --> 01:50:40,000
Speaker 1: I intended Margaret's book books signing last week, and I've

2120
01:50:40,040 --> 01:50:42,200
Speaker 1: attended lots of our events. And one of the questions

2121
01:50:42,400 --> 01:50:44,000
Speaker 1: and q and a's, and one of the questions that

2122
01:50:44,000 --> 01:50:46,400
Speaker 1: gets asked all the time is how do I get involved?

2123
01:50:46,560 --> 01:50:48,559
Speaker 1: How do I how do I find how do I

2124
01:50:48,600 --> 01:50:51,240
Speaker 1: meet people? How do I do this things? And you know,

2125
01:50:51,840 --> 01:50:53,400
Speaker 1: I want to get into that. I also want to

2126
01:50:53,400 --> 01:50:56,960
Speaker 1: give some very basic tangible advice. You know, don't post

2127
01:50:57,320 --> 01:50:59,040
Speaker 1: stupid things on the internet.

2128
01:50:59,280 --> 01:51:01,599
Speaker 2: If somebody tells you we need to go out and

2129
01:51:02,360 --> 01:51:05,800
Speaker 2: engage in revolutionary activity, maybe sit at home right now.

2130
01:51:05,840 --> 01:51:07,120
Speaker 2: You don't want to come into this thing with a

2131
01:51:07,160 --> 01:51:12,840
Speaker 2: criminal record. Nobody is making good plans right now. Go

2132
01:51:13,000 --> 01:51:16,639
Speaker 2: make good ones. Don't just reactively show up and follow

2133
01:51:16,680 --> 01:51:18,400
Speaker 2: someone with a clipboard in the streets.

2134
01:51:18,720 --> 01:51:22,720
Speaker 1: Don't post actionable threats on the internet.

2135
01:51:23,120 --> 01:51:25,479
Speaker 7: Don't post that picture of that comedian that gave that

2136
01:51:25,520 --> 01:51:28,000
Speaker 7: really funny joke. Just don't do it. There's no reason to.

2137
01:51:28,439 --> 01:51:33,280
Speaker 7: It's not cool. Yeah, Like, don't if you know what,

2138
01:51:33,439 --> 01:51:35,600
Speaker 7: if you know what comedian I'm talking about, you'll get it.

2139
01:51:35,640 --> 01:51:36,160
Speaker 6: You'll get it.

2140
01:51:37,040 --> 01:51:39,960
Speaker 2: If you're going to, you know, get messed up. Use

2141
01:51:40,000 --> 01:51:42,439
Speaker 2: substances in order to cope with things. Log out of

2142
01:51:42,479 --> 01:51:45,400
Speaker 2: social media on all of your devices first.

2143
01:51:45,360 --> 01:51:45,519
Speaker 8: You know.

2144
01:51:46,479 --> 01:51:49,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, sounds like that's some advice you were giving yourself.

2145
01:51:50,720 --> 01:51:53,640
Speaker 2: Sober as a church mouse, Sophie, just just coffee and

2146
01:51:53,720 --> 01:51:54,880
Speaker 2: clean Mountain Air for me.

2147
01:51:55,640 --> 01:51:58,040
Speaker 1: A very basic recommendation that I have for people is

2148
01:51:58,080 --> 01:51:59,040
Speaker 1: to get delete me.

2149
01:51:59,240 --> 01:52:00,479
Speaker 4: Yeah mm hmm.

2150
01:52:01,240 --> 01:52:04,479
Speaker 1: It is worth the investment. It is a good product,

2151
01:52:04,800 --> 01:52:05,679
Speaker 1: That's what I'll say.

2152
01:52:06,160 --> 01:52:10,760
Speaker 2: Yes, delete me is a service that helps purge aspects

2153
01:52:10,800 --> 01:52:12,719
Speaker 2: of your public record from the internet.

2154
01:52:12,840 --> 01:52:12,960
Speaker 8: Right.

2155
01:52:13,000 --> 01:52:14,880
Speaker 2: There's a lot of different site like, yeah, you have

2156
01:52:14,960 --> 01:52:17,479
Speaker 2: been involved if you are a person who participates in

2157
01:52:17,560 --> 01:52:20,120
Speaker 2: the economy through the internet. Right, if you buy things

2158
01:52:20,160 --> 01:52:22,360
Speaker 2: through the internet, your shit has been leaked.

2159
01:52:22,520 --> 01:52:22,720
Speaker 4: Right.

2160
01:52:23,080 --> 01:52:26,080
Speaker 1: Their you know tagline is your private information is no

2161
01:52:26,120 --> 01:52:29,400
Speaker 1: longer private. Right, And so essentially what they do is

2162
01:52:29,439 --> 01:52:33,639
Speaker 1: they scour the Internet and remove your personal data from

2163
01:52:33,680 --> 01:52:37,880
Speaker 1: online and they don't do that once. They continuously do it.

2164
01:52:38,320 --> 01:52:40,600
Speaker 1: This is like a fantastic plug for the product. They

2165
01:52:40,680 --> 01:52:43,160
Speaker 1: are not paying us. Yeah, let's just say the Churchier

2166
01:52:43,280 --> 01:52:46,479
Speaker 1: Scientology could not find me. Hell yeah, So.

2167
01:52:47,080 --> 01:52:49,280
Speaker 7: I will say there is some alternatives to delete me

2168
01:52:49,320 --> 01:52:50,519
Speaker 7: that are trying to get up the running. We might

2169
01:52:50,520 --> 01:52:52,759
Speaker 7: do a full episode on data removal in the future.

2170
01:52:53,040 --> 01:52:54,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, we definitely should.

2171
01:52:54,439 --> 01:52:56,880
Speaker 7: It does require you to also do manual inputs. There

2172
01:52:56,880 --> 01:52:59,360
Speaker 7: are certain sites that delete me when they send takedown

2173
01:52:59,400 --> 01:53:02,599
Speaker 7: requests to data brokers. Certain sites will not comply. You

2174
01:53:02,640 --> 01:53:05,760
Speaker 7: have to send requests manually. It's pretty simple, but they

2175
01:53:05,800 --> 01:53:07,800
Speaker 7: will give you a list of certain sites as well

2176
01:53:08,240 --> 01:53:12,200
Speaker 7: to do to go through this process manually. But I

2177
01:53:12,200 --> 01:53:13,720
Speaker 7: think like kind of the last thing we want to

2178
01:53:13,760 --> 01:53:16,479
Speaker 7: talk about is like we have seventy five days right

2179
01:53:16,520 --> 01:53:19,479
Speaker 7: to like prepare for stuff. We have seventy five days

2180
01:53:19,520 --> 01:53:22,000
Speaker 7: to prepare for the next four years. In some ways,

2181
01:53:22,040 --> 01:53:24,080
Speaker 7: it's going to kind of be like twenty seventeen to

2182
01:53:24,120 --> 01:53:27,720
Speaker 7: twenty nineteen again, which was a very busy time. Kind

2183
01:53:27,760 --> 01:53:29,160
Speaker 7: of all of the right wing gouals that have been

2184
01:53:29,240 --> 01:53:31,439
Speaker 7: hiding under the rocks the past few years because of

2185
01:53:31,439 --> 01:53:34,120
Speaker 7: the liberal doj will probably start coming out of the woodwork.

2186
01:53:34,520 --> 01:53:36,719
Speaker 7: There's going to be, you know, a lot more stuff

2187
01:53:36,800 --> 01:53:40,719
Speaker 7: going on, and you know, those of us that are here,

2188
01:53:41,240 --> 01:53:43,080
Speaker 7: we're able to make it through those years. Some of

2189
01:53:43,120 --> 01:53:46,240
Speaker 7: your friends probably weren't able to, and it is up

2190
01:53:46,240 --> 01:53:48,760
Speaker 7: to us to take care of each other to try

2191
01:53:48,800 --> 01:53:52,680
Speaker 7: to ensure that ourselves and people we know have a

2192
01:53:52,680 --> 01:53:54,840
Speaker 7: better chance of making it through these next four years.

2193
01:53:55,160 --> 01:53:57,479
Speaker 7: And I think kind of lastly, I'd like to kind

2194
01:53:57,520 --> 01:54:01,160
Speaker 7: of just go around talking about like what that will

2195
01:54:01,200 --> 01:54:03,320
Speaker 7: look like and how to kind of start that process,

2196
01:54:03,840 --> 01:54:08,360
Speaker 7: especially during these first seventy five days. Like brunch is over.

2197
01:54:09,000 --> 01:54:11,360
Speaker 7: Brunch has been over for a while, bunch of brunch

2198
01:54:11,400 --> 01:54:14,360
Speaker 7: should have never started. Yeah, but brunch is over now,

2199
01:54:14,640 --> 01:54:17,360
Speaker 7: So what can what can we do in these next

2200
01:54:17,400 --> 01:54:18,360
Speaker 7: to seventy five days?

2201
01:54:18,840 --> 01:54:21,200
Speaker 1: It's share your black coffee with friends.

2202
01:54:21,280 --> 01:54:23,360
Speaker 2: Time, share your black coffee with friends.

2203
01:54:23,400 --> 01:54:24,960
Speaker 4: Maybe cork the champagne.

2204
01:54:25,240 --> 01:54:27,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, cork the champagne.

2205
01:54:27,960 --> 01:54:30,000
Speaker 4: You've drinking that orange juice though you don't have enough

2206
01:54:30,080 --> 01:54:30,560
Speaker 4: vitamin C.

2207
01:54:31,040 --> 01:54:34,400
Speaker 10: Or when you and your anarchist tradwife friends get together

2208
01:54:34,440 --> 01:54:38,200
Speaker 10: for brunch, just make sure to actually talk about real

2209
01:54:38,320 --> 01:54:39,520
Speaker 10: radical things you can do.

2210
01:54:39,560 --> 01:54:41,680
Speaker 6: Because if you already have a way of gathering with.

2211
01:54:41,640 --> 01:54:44,560
Speaker 10: Your friends, you should just turn it into talking about

2212
01:54:44,560 --> 01:54:45,400
Speaker 10: more than just how.

2213
01:54:45,280 --> 01:54:45,800
Speaker 6: Your day is.

2214
01:54:45,920 --> 01:54:48,120
Speaker 9: Absolutely, Yeah, I feel like I need to put on

2215
01:54:48,120 --> 01:54:49,560
Speaker 9: the record that what I said, that what I was

2216
01:54:49,600 --> 01:54:53,600
Speaker 9: trying to say is we need feminism, not an anti tradwife.

2217
01:54:54,240 --> 01:54:55,720
Speaker 9: I don't know how that was conveyed.

2218
01:54:56,040 --> 01:54:58,480
Speaker 6: I was trying to recruit you into my tradwife called.

2219
01:54:58,520 --> 01:55:01,080
Speaker 1: No, thank you for clarifying. Yeah, but that was very

2220
01:55:01,200 --> 01:55:07,760
Speaker 1: much understood. But being a little bit literal right now.

2221
01:55:08,440 --> 01:55:09,080
Speaker 6: Is not bad.

2222
01:55:09,680 --> 01:55:13,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, there, so true. I just think about like the

2223
01:55:13,360 --> 01:55:16,480
Speaker 1: ways that I've found my people and the way that

2224
01:55:16,560 --> 01:55:21,600
Speaker 1: I have made my community. Obviously, like the taglines of

2225
01:55:21,720 --> 01:55:24,000
Speaker 1: you know, talk to your neighbors and things like that

2226
01:55:24,120 --> 01:55:29,920
Speaker 1: are absolutely important, but the recommendation you know, obviously joining

2227
01:55:30,000 --> 01:55:32,280
Speaker 1: orgs are great. Sure, that's a great talking point, but

2228
01:55:32,320 --> 01:55:34,800
Speaker 1: that's not really how I met my community. The people

2229
01:55:34,840 --> 01:55:39,160
Speaker 1: that are essentially my family now, I met by going

2230
01:55:39,240 --> 01:55:45,080
Speaker 1: to content and different creators, shows and music and different

2231
01:55:45,120 --> 01:55:48,000
Speaker 1: events where we had mutual interests, even if that meant

2232
01:55:48,000 --> 01:55:52,280
Speaker 1: that I had to drive pretty far and found people

2233
01:55:52,640 --> 01:55:55,400
Speaker 1: that liked the things that I like. And it turns

2234
01:55:55,400 --> 01:55:57,160
Speaker 1: out a lot of the people that like the things

2235
01:55:57,240 --> 01:56:00,600
Speaker 1: you like believe the things you believe, and if they don't,

2236
01:56:00,960 --> 01:56:04,200
Speaker 1: they're usually pretty open to hearing you out. Yeah, and

2237
01:56:04,440 --> 01:56:07,320
Speaker 1: I think it's super important to listen to your friends

2238
01:56:07,760 --> 01:56:11,280
Speaker 1: and also, like I've said this quite a bit, support

2239
01:56:11,320 --> 01:56:15,920
Speaker 1: your friend's weird hobby. Yeah, that's super crucial. Listen to

2240
01:56:16,000 --> 01:56:21,480
Speaker 1: the people around you, And it's not easy. I had

2241
01:56:21,600 --> 01:56:25,120
Speaker 1: basically no friends for a very long time because I

2242
01:56:25,200 --> 01:56:30,000
Speaker 1: did not have the right people around me, and it

2243
01:56:30,000 --> 01:56:33,600
Speaker 1: took a lot of effort to find my core humans.

2244
01:56:34,120 --> 01:56:37,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not recommending this, and several of us

2245
01:56:37,080 --> 01:56:40,320
Speaker 1: did do this. I moved to a different state. You

2246
01:56:40,400 --> 01:56:44,320
Speaker 1: save up for it. It's definitely not affordable thing to do,

2247
01:56:44,800 --> 01:56:48,200
Speaker 1: definitely not an easy thing to do. But I don't

2248
01:56:48,240 --> 01:56:50,400
Speaker 1: know where I would be without those people, and I

2249
01:56:50,440 --> 01:56:50,960
Speaker 1: love them.

2250
01:56:51,720 --> 01:56:54,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, politics and culture do go hand in hand in

2251
01:56:54,440 --> 01:56:57,400
Speaker 7: so many ways, and kind of cultural engagement and ways

2252
01:56:57,400 --> 01:56:59,840
Speaker 7: to kind of grow your social network, especially you know

2253
01:57:00,080 --> 01:57:02,720
Speaker 7: in places where there's probably where there's I mean in

2254
01:57:02,720 --> 01:57:05,520
Speaker 7: my case, you know, like trans people, queer people, people

2255
01:57:05,520 --> 01:57:08,000
Speaker 7: that I'm kind of around, and people who I'm like,

2256
01:57:08,040 --> 01:57:11,520
Speaker 7: you know, concerned about, like personally, people are like no,

2257
01:57:11,640 --> 01:57:14,600
Speaker 7: you know, going into these next four years, I guess

2258
01:57:14,640 --> 01:57:17,280
Speaker 7: like the biggest thing I was kind of thinking about

2259
01:57:17,360 --> 01:57:20,560
Speaker 7: last night is like, yes, these next four years are

2260
01:57:20,600 --> 01:57:23,240
Speaker 7: going to suck, and in many ways it'll just be

2261
01:57:23,240 --> 01:57:27,200
Speaker 7: like everything will just get slightly worse. But like I

2262
01:57:27,240 --> 01:57:31,240
Speaker 7: know that myself and those I know like immediately around

2263
01:57:31,280 --> 01:57:34,320
Speaker 7: me will be fine, Like we will be okay. Things

2264
01:57:34,320 --> 01:57:37,040
Speaker 7: will be worse, but we already have networks, We already

2265
01:57:37,080 --> 01:57:39,400
Speaker 7: have community. We have these things built up to take

2266
01:57:39,440 --> 01:57:42,440
Speaker 7: care of each other and provide the things that we need,

2267
01:57:42,720 --> 01:57:44,720
Speaker 7: and this is something that we'll be talking more about

2268
01:57:44,720 --> 01:57:46,360
Speaker 7: in the kind of the next few months. Like we

2269
01:57:47,040 --> 01:57:49,520
Speaker 7: have we have that, and that's taken effort. That doesn't

2270
01:57:49,560 --> 01:57:52,640
Speaker 7: just happen by itself. It requires effort, and it requires

2271
01:57:52,680 --> 01:57:55,440
Speaker 7: resistance to this idea like community nihilism, this kind of

2272
01:57:55,520 --> 01:57:57,280
Speaker 7: belief that like community is like not a real thing

2273
01:57:57,320 --> 01:58:00,360
Speaker 7: that doesn't actually exist, which is a very privileged thing

2274
01:58:00,400 --> 01:58:03,080
Speaker 7: to believe, because there's people out there who rely on

2275
01:58:03,080 --> 01:58:05,200
Speaker 7: this and will continue to rely on this even more

2276
01:58:05,440 --> 01:58:09,280
Speaker 7: in these next few years. But there are those without that,

2277
01:58:09,600 --> 01:58:11,880
Speaker 7: and and that's the people I'm most concerned about. Yeah,

2278
01:58:12,280 --> 01:58:14,680
Speaker 7: it's queer kids, it's trans kids who do not have

2279
01:58:14,760 --> 01:58:18,440
Speaker 7: those networks, do not have those communities, people who are

2280
01:58:18,440 --> 01:58:21,400
Speaker 7: isolated like that is who I am most concerned about that.

2281
01:58:21,480 --> 01:58:24,640
Speaker 7: And I understand the impulse to kind of isolate and

2282
01:58:24,800 --> 01:58:27,240
Speaker 7: just go online because that's safer than having to go

2283
01:58:27,280 --> 01:58:29,640
Speaker 7: out into the real world, or at least it feels safer,

2284
01:58:30,080 --> 01:58:32,400
Speaker 7: But I don't think that's actually real. I think that

2285
01:58:32,520 --> 01:58:35,440
Speaker 7: leads to its own forms of detrimental harm. So like

2286
01:58:35,480 --> 01:58:37,360
Speaker 7: it requires like a getting off discord and like a

2287
01:58:37,400 --> 01:58:40,800
Speaker 7: going into your community and trying to make friends, which

2288
01:58:40,800 --> 01:58:43,440
Speaker 7: can be scary, but it is like incredibly crucial. I

2289
01:58:43,520 --> 01:58:46,240
Speaker 7: think we should talk about like joining actual orgs as well.

2290
01:58:46,720 --> 01:58:48,280
Speaker 7: I think some other people on this call can speak

2291
01:58:48,320 --> 01:58:51,000
Speaker 7: more to that and like the utility of those as well.

2292
01:58:51,240 --> 01:58:53,880
Speaker 7: But I think first and foremostly even getting a network

2293
01:58:53,880 --> 01:58:57,240
Speaker 7: of friends outside of orgs, it's also a very is

2294
01:58:57,280 --> 01:59:01,040
Speaker 7: a very good it's not even it's just like a

2295
01:59:01,080 --> 01:59:03,839
Speaker 7: life support system that it's going to be super important.

2296
01:59:04,000 --> 01:59:07,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'd like to throw it to Margaret for

2297
01:59:08,240 --> 01:59:09,960
Speaker 1: a socond because she looks like she really wants to

2298
01:59:09,960 --> 01:59:10,520
Speaker 1: say something.

2299
01:59:11,680 --> 01:59:13,800
Speaker 10: Oh and I don't actually disagree with anything that they're saying.

2300
01:59:13,840 --> 01:59:14,720
Speaker 10: I think, no, not at all.

2301
01:59:15,040 --> 01:59:16,520
Speaker 6: It's absolutely crucial.

2302
01:59:16,560 --> 01:59:19,120
Speaker 10: I wanted to just say that, like, I think there's

2303
01:59:19,120 --> 01:59:22,560
Speaker 10: actually a weird blurriness in the lines between an organization

2304
01:59:22,640 --> 01:59:25,840
Speaker 10: and a friend group, right totally. And the problem isn't

2305
01:59:25,880 --> 01:59:28,400
Speaker 10: necessarily subculture. The problem is a sort of if we

2306
01:59:28,440 --> 01:59:30,840
Speaker 10: have this idea that there's a hegemonic subculture, like in

2307
01:59:30,920 --> 01:59:32,640
Speaker 10: order to be a radical, you have to be part

2308
01:59:32,680 --> 01:59:36,600
Speaker 10: of our click, right, And that's a problem. Whereas if

2309
01:59:36,600 --> 01:59:39,520
Speaker 10: whatever click you're already part of or already subculture you're

2310
01:59:39,520 --> 01:59:42,920
Speaker 10: already part of you turn that radical. I think that is,

2311
01:59:43,000 --> 01:59:45,200
Speaker 10: you know, it's what Sophie was talking about. But then yes,

2312
01:59:45,240 --> 01:59:47,600
Speaker 10: there's a lot of people who have no access to

2313
01:59:47,640 --> 01:59:49,080
Speaker 10: any of that, and some of it, as I think

2314
01:59:49,080 --> 01:59:51,600
Speaker 10: you're saying, is well, if you only hang out with

2315
01:59:51,600 --> 01:59:53,720
Speaker 10: your friends on discord, like maybe it's time to start

2316
01:59:53,760 --> 01:59:57,240
Speaker 10: meeting up in person, and even if that's very complicated

2317
01:59:57,240 --> 02:00:00,000
Speaker 10: to do. But I also think that there's a huge,

2318
02:00:00,040 --> 02:00:06,160
Speaker 10: huge importance to open door organizing and organizing. Like when

2319
02:00:06,160 --> 02:00:08,000
Speaker 10: I say orgs, I don't mean like go join PSL

2320
02:00:08,080 --> 02:00:10,920
Speaker 10: or any authoritarian cult, right, or that there should never

2321
02:00:10,960 --> 02:00:13,720
Speaker 10: be a one organization that says this is the strategy

2322
02:00:13,720 --> 02:00:16,120
Speaker 10: that we have to use to fight this. But instead,

2323
02:00:16,880 --> 02:00:19,080
Speaker 10: if you get together with the people that you want

2324
02:00:19,080 --> 02:00:20,680
Speaker 10: to get together with and say, this is the problem

2325
02:00:20,720 --> 02:00:23,000
Speaker 10: we're dealing with, how do we deal with it? And

2326
02:00:23,280 --> 02:00:25,440
Speaker 10: that is how you can create an organization. And if

2327
02:00:25,480 --> 02:00:28,520
Speaker 10: you do that, many of those organizations, I would hope

2328
02:00:28,640 --> 02:00:32,040
Speaker 10: would have open door policies and be public because there

2329
02:00:32,040 --> 02:00:34,720
Speaker 10: are so many isolated people who want to be involved

2330
02:00:34,760 --> 02:00:38,040
Speaker 10: who don't have any kind of like cultural cachet with

2331
02:00:38,160 --> 02:00:41,160
Speaker 10: which to get into a more subcultural group. I think

2332
02:00:41,200 --> 02:00:44,360
Speaker 10: this is why churches are very good at recruiting unfortunately

2333
02:00:44,840 --> 02:00:47,560
Speaker 10: depending on the church, but like because you can just

2334
02:00:47,600 --> 02:00:49,760
Speaker 10: show up and they will be like, okay, you have

2335
02:00:49,800 --> 02:00:53,280
Speaker 10: a community now, right, And that is what people desperately want,

2336
02:00:53,320 --> 02:00:54,640
Speaker 10: I think right now. And we have to be careful.

2337
02:00:54,680 --> 02:00:56,480
Speaker 10: We don't want to just be like, oh, therefore we

2338
02:00:56,520 --> 02:00:59,919
Speaker 10: should replicate what they do. But I think that overall

2339
02:01:00,160 --> 02:01:03,160
Speaker 10: what our movement needs is instead of gatekeepers, we need ushers.

2340
02:01:03,480 --> 02:01:06,760
Speaker 10: We need people to help people find their way into

2341
02:01:06,880 --> 02:01:10,040
Speaker 10: the movement, to help bring them in and figure out like, hey,

2342
02:01:10,040 --> 02:01:11,960
Speaker 10: what are you good at or what are you interested

2343
02:01:12,000 --> 02:01:14,240
Speaker 10: in being good at? Here's how you can apply it.

2344
02:01:14,480 --> 02:01:16,360
Speaker 10: And I want to really quickly use a case study

2345
02:01:16,360 --> 02:01:18,240
Speaker 10: that happened from the last Trump election that I think

2346
02:01:18,320 --> 02:01:20,480
Speaker 10: was actually fairly useful. It was living in a small town,

2347
02:01:20,840 --> 02:01:23,400
Speaker 10: a small city with a fairly vibrant to anarchist community,

2348
02:01:23,880 --> 02:01:28,920
Speaker 10: and when Trump was elected, we called for anarchist assemblies

2349
02:01:29,120 --> 02:01:32,640
Speaker 10: and they were open door and they were places where

2350
02:01:32,760 --> 02:01:36,000
Speaker 10: you don't get together to plan crime. But all of

2351
02:01:36,040 --> 02:01:39,120
Speaker 10: these different mutual aid groups would come and bring representation.

2352
02:01:39,280 --> 02:01:41,640
Speaker 10: People would say this is what we're working on. This

2353
02:01:41,680 --> 02:01:43,680
Speaker 10: is what we can use help with. And they weren't

2354
02:01:43,840 --> 02:01:48,360
Speaker 10: decision making bodies, they were information sharing bodies. And a

2355
02:01:48,400 --> 02:01:51,040
Speaker 10: lot of different groups spun up out of it that

2356
02:01:51,120 --> 02:01:54,320
Speaker 10: are still around, like herbal clinics and different mutual aid

2357
02:01:54,400 --> 02:01:58,480
Speaker 10: organizations because we just said, hey, everyone who cares about this,

2358
02:01:58,600 --> 02:02:01,480
Speaker 10: let's get together and talk about what we want to do.

2359
02:02:02,000 --> 02:02:04,120
Speaker 10: And I found that to be an incredibly useful thing.

2360
02:02:04,160 --> 02:02:05,680
Speaker 10: And it's like the kind of thing I would pitch

2361
02:02:05,720 --> 02:02:09,000
Speaker 10: to people is not necessarily and if you're not an anarchist,

2362
02:02:09,080 --> 02:02:11,480
Speaker 10: don't do it as the anarchist thing. Yeah, that's that's

2363
02:02:11,480 --> 02:02:13,040
Speaker 10: what I care about. That's what I'm excited about.

2364
02:02:13,320 --> 02:02:15,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, I just wanted to offer, like, first of all,

2365
02:02:15,600 --> 02:02:18,960
Speaker 8: like get outside if you can, like touch craw and

2366
02:02:19,120 --> 02:02:21,480
Speaker 8: touch grass. Can be very condescending, and I don't mean

2367
02:02:21,520 --> 02:02:25,000
Speaker 8: it like that. I just like I was feeling stressed

2368
02:02:25,080 --> 02:02:26,920
Speaker 8: last week and I went off and I climbed to

2369
02:02:26,960 --> 02:02:28,480
Speaker 8: the top of a mountain and I sat there by

2370
02:02:28,520 --> 02:02:30,360
Speaker 8: myself for a while and it was nice and it

2371
02:02:30,400 --> 02:02:33,240
Speaker 8: was so quiet. I could hear like this little hawk's wingspeeding,

2372
02:02:33,520 --> 02:02:35,320
Speaker 8: and that was really good for me. That's what I

2373
02:02:35,400 --> 02:02:38,720
Speaker 8: like to hear. It would not have changed the outcome

2374
02:02:38,760 --> 02:02:41,120
Speaker 8: one bit if I had stayed and sound twister dot

2375
02:02:41,120 --> 02:02:44,000
Speaker 8: com for four hours instead of doing that. So I

2376
02:02:44,040 --> 02:02:46,440
Speaker 8: want you to all take time for yourselves and do

2377
02:02:46,560 --> 02:02:47,520
Speaker 8: things that kind.

2378
02:02:47,400 --> 02:02:49,160
Speaker 6: Of make you feel hopeful.

2379
02:02:49,400 --> 02:02:51,040
Speaker 8: I want to build a for what Margaret said, there

2380
02:02:51,040 --> 02:02:53,120
Speaker 8: are so many skills that all of you had that

2381
02:02:53,160 --> 02:02:55,880
Speaker 8: you could share with someone. I think when I started

2382
02:02:55,880 --> 02:02:59,760
Speaker 8: being an anarchist, it was largely because I was going

2383
02:02:59,800 --> 02:03:03,640
Speaker 8: to a bike co op and like, people shared their

2384
02:03:03,640 --> 02:03:05,920
Speaker 8: skills with me, and I shared my skills with them,

2385
02:03:05,960 --> 02:03:08,360
Speaker 8: and we all shared our stuff with each other, and

2386
02:03:09,320 --> 02:03:11,040
Speaker 8: I worked out that we could just rely on other

2387
02:03:11,040 --> 02:03:12,760
Speaker 8: people for that shit and they didn't need to be

2388
02:03:12,840 --> 02:03:16,640
Speaker 8: hierarchical or based on some transfer of material goods.

2389
02:03:16,680 --> 02:03:18,040
Speaker 4: People just want to help each other.

2390
02:03:19,760 --> 02:03:21,840
Speaker 8: And a lot of people have messaged me saying that,

2391
02:03:22,080 --> 02:03:24,400
Speaker 8: like they know that I participate in mutilae and they

2392
02:03:24,400 --> 02:03:27,840
Speaker 8: want you to. If you can't see it, then you

2393
02:03:27,920 --> 02:03:31,360
Speaker 8: have to start it, and that's okay. You can change

2394
02:03:31,360 --> 02:03:33,240
Speaker 8: the world if you make a caller full of sandwiches

2395
02:03:33,280 --> 02:03:35,400
Speaker 8: and give them to people who are hungry. I guarantee

2396
02:03:35,440 --> 02:03:37,840
Speaker 8: if you start doing that shit, you will find other

2397
02:03:37,880 --> 02:03:40,080
Speaker 8: people and they will say hey, what are you doing?

2398
02:03:40,240 --> 02:03:42,880
Speaker 4: Oh I'm feeling people? Why because they're hungry? Can I help?

2399
02:03:43,000 --> 02:03:46,640
Speaker 8: Yes, it's that easy, and like we can build from there.

2400
02:03:46,720 --> 02:03:48,880
Speaker 8: We don't have to agree with them on everything, first

2401
02:03:48,920 --> 02:03:52,160
Speaker 8: of all, but we can build from there, and I

2402
02:03:52,200 --> 02:03:55,840
Speaker 8: think it can be really scary, But like now, it's

2403
02:03:55,840 --> 02:03:59,600
Speaker 8: the time to start, not once things get worse, you know,

2404
02:04:00,080 --> 02:04:01,760
Speaker 8: four eight years ago was the time to start. But

2405
02:04:01,840 --> 02:04:03,840
Speaker 8: we can't go back, and I want to kind of

2406
02:04:04,240 --> 02:04:07,360
Speaker 8: finish up with that that we can't go back. I

2407
02:04:07,560 --> 02:04:10,720
Speaker 8: don't care where someone was yesterday. I don't care where

2408
02:04:10,720 --> 02:04:12,560
Speaker 8: they were last week. I don't care where they were

2409
02:04:12,600 --> 02:04:14,800
Speaker 8: last year, like all the malices, where they are now,

2410
02:04:15,440 --> 02:04:19,120
Speaker 8: and we can build forward from here. We cannot go

2411
02:04:19,240 --> 02:04:23,640
Speaker 8: back and change things. And it is not worth doing

2412
02:04:23,960 --> 02:04:28,560
Speaker 8: endless recriminations. It doesn't matter it's happened. It's on us

2413
02:04:28,600 --> 02:04:32,240
Speaker 8: to decide how we react now. And you can react

2414
02:04:32,280 --> 02:04:35,520
Speaker 8: in a way that strengthens our communities and that builds

2415
02:04:35,520 --> 02:04:37,160
Speaker 8: ways are taking care of each other, which aren't way

2416
02:04:37,160 --> 02:04:40,480
Speaker 8: they of controlling each other. That that's all that you

2417
02:04:40,600 --> 02:04:44,320
Speaker 8: need to do to make this so much less despairing,

2418
02:04:44,720 --> 02:04:48,400
Speaker 8: so much less terrible, and so much less deadly for

2419
02:04:48,480 --> 02:04:50,480
Speaker 8: some people. And I know that we're doing that here.

2420
02:04:51,040 --> 02:04:53,480
Speaker 8: Check in on my friends. I'm in the Daddy and Gap.

2421
02:04:53,480 --> 02:04:56,800
Speaker 8: I'm checking in on my mutual aid friends. And if

2422
02:04:56,800 --> 02:04:58,640
Speaker 8: you don't have that, I want you to build that.

2423
02:04:58,680 --> 02:05:01,360
Speaker 8: And I promise it's not something this out of reach,

2424
02:05:01,440 --> 02:05:02,240
Speaker 8: like you can do it.

2425
02:05:02,320 --> 02:05:02,520
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2426
02:05:02,520 --> 02:05:03,480
Speaker 4: I want to add one last thing.

2427
02:05:03,520 --> 02:05:05,200
Speaker 6: I think a lot of people think they don't have skills.

2428
02:05:05,200 --> 02:05:06,000
Speaker 6: You do have skills.

2429
02:05:06,080 --> 02:05:07,960
Speaker 9: The thing that I did when I started organizing was

2430
02:05:07,960 --> 02:05:10,920
Speaker 9: I moved chairs around so that people could have meetings

2431
02:05:11,000 --> 02:05:12,840
Speaker 9: by moving chairs. And I have helped take care of

2432
02:05:12,880 --> 02:05:17,840
Speaker 9: people's kids that like, helped put posters up right. People,

2433
02:05:17,880 --> 02:05:20,040
Speaker 9: people can do things. You have things that you can do,

2434
02:05:20,920 --> 02:05:24,400
Speaker 9: and it's it's time to lock in. That's that's that's

2435
02:05:24,440 --> 02:05:26,520
Speaker 9: what we have from here. It is time to lock in.

2436
02:05:26,560 --> 02:05:28,680
Speaker 9: It's time to organize, and it's time to get prepared to fight.

2437
02:05:28,920 --> 02:05:29,560
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2438
02:05:29,680 --> 02:05:31,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is just the first episode after the election.

2439
02:05:32,480 --> 02:05:35,880
Speaker 1: In the coming weeks, coming days, coming months, we're going

2440
02:05:35,920 --> 02:05:39,320
Speaker 1: to go into very specific detail on things. We are

2441
02:05:39,360 --> 02:05:45,720
Speaker 1: going to provide different information and resources and continue to

2442
02:05:45,760 --> 02:05:50,960
Speaker 1: defend against disinformation and misinformation. And this is a fucking

2443
02:05:51,040 --> 02:05:51,720
Speaker 1: daily show.

2444
02:05:53,600 --> 02:05:55,320
Speaker 7: We will we will be getting into all of all

2445
02:05:55,360 --> 02:05:58,600
Speaker 7: of these topics, especially in these next to seventy five days,

2446
02:05:58,640 --> 02:06:00,720
Speaker 7: to help prepare topic by topic.

2447
02:06:01,200 --> 02:06:03,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's going to be. It's gonna be a long

2448
02:06:03,600 --> 02:06:04,080
Speaker 6: four years.

2449
02:06:23,760 --> 02:06:28,240
Speaker 1: Welcome to it could happen? Here a podcast about things

2450
02:06:28,440 --> 02:06:32,880
Speaker 1: crumbling and how to pick up the pieces wooing.

2451
02:06:33,520 --> 02:06:34,680
Speaker 4: We love to crumble.

2452
02:06:35,000 --> 02:06:40,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And part of that is understanding what is

2453
02:06:40,280 --> 02:06:43,080
Speaker 1: going to happen and how it is going to happen,

2454
02:06:43,880 --> 02:06:46,680
Speaker 1: and obsorbing that knowledge and what you can do with it.

2455
02:06:46,800 --> 02:06:50,600
Speaker 1: So today James is going to tell us about Trump's

2456
02:06:50,680 --> 02:06:52,280
Speaker 1: plans for migrants.

2457
02:06:52,960 --> 02:06:57,160
Speaker 8: Yep, yeah, I guess in terms of what's going to happen,

2458
02:06:57,560 --> 02:06:59,600
Speaker 8: we don't know, right. Trump said a lot of stuff

2459
02:06:59,600 --> 02:07:01,640
Speaker 8: in his first term and kind of didn't stick the

2460
02:07:01,720 --> 02:07:04,240
Speaker 8: landing a lot of it he tried. But they're more

2461
02:07:04,280 --> 02:07:06,960
Speaker 8: experienced now and I think crucially they have a much

2462
02:07:07,000 --> 02:07:09,520
Speaker 8: more favorable Supreme Court and then probably will have an

2463
02:07:09,560 --> 02:07:12,240
Speaker 8: even more favorable Supreme Court by the end of this term.

2464
02:07:13,080 --> 02:07:15,680
Speaker 8: So a plan to deport up to a million people

2465
02:07:15,720 --> 02:07:18,680
Speaker 8: this year was one of the very few concrete and

2466
02:07:18,720 --> 02:07:22,520
Speaker 8: tangible promises that the Trump campaign made. Right, they had

2467
02:07:22,520 --> 02:07:25,440
Speaker 8: a lot of vibes, nasty vibes, but like in terms

2468
02:07:25,440 --> 02:07:29,160
Speaker 8: of like we will do X by y. This was

2469
02:07:29,240 --> 02:07:32,640
Speaker 8: one of the very few. Now, Trump tried to deport

2470
02:07:32,640 --> 02:07:33,840
Speaker 8: a lot of people in his first term.

2471
02:07:33,920 --> 02:07:34,040
Speaker 4: Right.

2472
02:07:34,520 --> 02:07:38,400
Speaker 8: The one consistent part of his policy ever since he

2473
02:07:38,520 --> 02:07:42,320
Speaker 8: rode sideways down an escalator in twenty fifteen and then

2474
02:07:42,400 --> 02:07:46,120
Speaker 8: shit talked to Mexican people, has been an anti migrant policy.

2475
02:07:46,560 --> 02:07:49,440
Speaker 8: He didn't really stick the landing on mass deportations in

2476
02:07:49,480 --> 02:07:53,120
Speaker 8: his first term. In fact, Biden deported more people in

2477
02:07:53,160 --> 02:07:55,520
Speaker 8: twenty twenty three than Trump did in any year of

2478
02:07:55,560 --> 02:07:59,120
Speaker 8: his first term. In fact, Trump also fell behind Obama

2479
02:07:59,160 --> 02:08:01,520
Speaker 8: in terms of deep ortations per year. None of that

2480
02:08:01,560 --> 02:08:03,840
Speaker 8: means that he won't be able to do that this time, right,

2481
02:08:03,920 --> 02:08:06,680
Speaker 8: I'm just trying to put some numbers on his promises

2482
02:08:06,680 --> 02:08:10,000
Speaker 8: the last time. So I want to look first at

2483
02:08:10,000 --> 02:08:12,280
Speaker 8: how he could go about his promise in his second term.

2484
02:08:12,360 --> 02:08:12,560
Speaker 6: Right.

2485
02:08:12,960 --> 02:08:14,560
Speaker 8: One thing that he said he will do is use

2486
02:08:14,600 --> 02:08:18,280
Speaker 8: Title forty two again. So if people have not listened

2487
02:08:18,360 --> 02:08:21,640
Speaker 8: to the series I did last May or June on

2488
02:08:21,840 --> 02:08:24,480
Speaker 8: Title forty two, I would like to direct them there.

2489
02:08:24,520 --> 02:08:27,680
Speaker 8: Title forty two is a reminder, it's a public health law.

2490
02:08:28,080 --> 02:08:32,440
Speaker 8: And it's public health law that, in this interpretation, allowed CBP,

2491
02:08:32,680 --> 02:08:36,880
Speaker 8: specifically Border Patrol to immediately return people to Mexico without

2492
02:08:36,880 --> 02:08:40,000
Speaker 8: processing them first. Sometimes they call it catch and release.

2493
02:08:40,120 --> 02:08:40,320
Speaker 4: Right.

2494
02:08:40,440 --> 02:08:45,400
Speaker 8: What it resulted in was these are not technically deportations.

2495
02:08:45,520 --> 02:08:48,480
Speaker 8: But when Trump said something, I don't think he's considering

2496
02:08:48,480 --> 02:08:51,720
Speaker 8: the exact meanings of what he's saying. Right, So if

2497
02:08:51,720 --> 02:08:55,320
Speaker 8: we look at Title forty two expulsions, if he's going

2498
02:08:55,320 --> 02:08:58,200
Speaker 8: to bring back Title forty two, reaching that one million

2499
02:08:58,280 --> 02:09:01,480
Speaker 8: per year number is pretty easy. In fact, that happened

2500
02:09:01,480 --> 02:09:04,600
Speaker 8: in twenty twenty two, again under Biden. Right, So if

2501
02:09:04,640 --> 02:09:07,280
Speaker 8: he considers those to be deportations and that's within his

2502
02:09:07,360 --> 02:09:11,200
Speaker 8: one million per year goal, it's reasonable that he will

2503
02:09:11,240 --> 02:09:12,880
Speaker 8: reach to say that he will be able to reach that,

2504
02:09:13,040 --> 02:09:14,840
Speaker 8: and he will be able to do that with the

2505
02:09:14,880 --> 02:09:21,400
Speaker 8: current infrastructure, right without massively upgrading CBP, ice, ice, detention facilities,

2506
02:09:21,440 --> 02:09:26,120
Speaker 8: immigration judges, all those things. Yeah, So, like, if we

2507
02:09:26,160 --> 02:09:28,440
Speaker 8: consider those to be deportations, and one million a year

2508
02:09:28,480 --> 02:09:30,480
Speaker 8: is very much something that we might.

2509
02:09:30,360 --> 02:09:32,560
Speaker 1: Well see, do you know where we're at this year

2510
02:09:32,960 --> 02:09:34,360
Speaker 1: or it hasn't been released yet.

2511
02:09:34,880 --> 02:09:35,320
Speaker 6: I don't know.

2512
02:09:35,360 --> 02:09:37,760
Speaker 4: In twenty twenty two was the last stats I could find.

2513
02:09:38,440 --> 02:09:40,600
Speaker 8: I linked to the CBP If people want to look

2514
02:09:40,640 --> 02:09:43,680
Speaker 8: at the title forty two and title so Title eight.

2515
02:09:44,200 --> 02:09:47,240
Speaker 8: It's the immigration law under which people are normally received right.

2516
02:09:47,400 --> 02:09:50,520
Speaker 8: Title forty two ended in May of twenty twenty three,

2517
02:09:50,600 --> 02:09:52,480
Speaker 8: mayle elevens twenty twenty three with the end of the

2518
02:09:52,520 --> 02:09:56,000
Speaker 8: COVID nineteen emergency, because the reason they were using public

2519
02:09:56,000 --> 02:09:59,120
Speaker 8: health law as immigration law was because of this health

2520
02:09:59,160 --> 02:10:02,600
Speaker 8: emergency right now. Obviously it was used extremely cynically. For instance,

2521
02:10:02,600 --> 02:10:05,880
Speaker 8: there weren't exemptions for vaccinated people, but nonetheless that's why

2522
02:10:05,880 --> 02:10:08,240
Speaker 8: they were using it. And when the federal emergency for

2523
02:10:08,280 --> 02:10:10,320
Speaker 8: COVID nineteen ended, so did Biden's.

2524
02:10:09,960 --> 02:10:12,040
Speaker 6: Excuse for using Title forty two.

2525
02:10:12,560 --> 02:10:14,320
Speaker 8: That I will link to the CBP data center in

2526
02:10:14,360 --> 02:10:16,520
Speaker 8: the notes so people can see Title forty two versus

2527
02:10:16,520 --> 02:10:19,160
Speaker 8: tight late over the last few years. As I pointed

2528
02:10:19,200 --> 02:10:21,520
Speaker 8: out last week, the US can also fund deportations of

2529
02:10:21,520 --> 02:10:24,720
Speaker 8: migrants further south, and it's done this at Panama. I've

2530
02:10:24,840 --> 02:10:27,080
Speaker 8: had a series from there last week. People hadn't listened

2531
02:10:27,120 --> 02:10:29,480
Speaker 8: to it. I would love them to do so, but

2532
02:10:29,560 --> 02:10:31,160
Speaker 8: the numbers that they've been able to achieve there are

2533
02:10:31,160 --> 02:10:33,320
Speaker 8: pretty low. And I don't think that's really going to

2534
02:10:33,360 --> 02:10:38,600
Speaker 8: meaningfully impact his target. So let's talk about what everyone

2535
02:10:38,720 --> 02:10:41,360
Speaker 8: is most afraid of, which is mass deportations of people

2536
02:10:41,360 --> 02:10:42,680
Speaker 8: who are already living in.

2537
02:10:42,640 --> 02:10:43,560
Speaker 4: The United States.

2538
02:10:43,680 --> 02:10:43,880
Speaker 1: Right.

2539
02:10:44,520 --> 02:10:48,160
Speaker 8: That is definitely what his right wing trolls have been

2540
02:10:48,720 --> 02:10:51,560
Speaker 8: sort of hyping up, certainly over the last few weeks, right,

2541
02:10:51,640 --> 02:10:53,080
Speaker 8: the idea that they are going to come to your

2542
02:10:53,080 --> 02:10:56,440
Speaker 8: house and find you if you're an undocumented person in

2543
02:10:56,440 --> 02:10:59,880
Speaker 8: the United States. So to talk about this, I want

2544
02:10:59,920 --> 02:11:02,040
Speaker 8: to talk about, first of all, like the real nuts

2545
02:11:02,080 --> 02:11:04,280
Speaker 8: and bolts of how he would be able, if he

2546
02:11:04,320 --> 02:11:04,960
Speaker 8: would be able to.

2547
02:11:04,880 --> 02:11:05,320
Speaker 4: Do this, right.

2548
02:11:05,360 --> 02:11:07,400
Speaker 8: And I draw very heavily here on a report by

2549
02:11:07,440 --> 02:11:12,360
Speaker 8: the American Immigration Council who did some calculations on the

2550
02:11:12,400 --> 02:11:15,760
Speaker 8: cost of a single ice detention, right, the cost of

2551
02:11:15,920 --> 02:11:18,600
Speaker 8: a single raid, the amount of agents that will be

2552
02:11:18,640 --> 02:11:22,280
Speaker 8: required to meet this kind of capacity. And there are

2553
02:11:23,320 --> 02:11:25,480
Speaker 8: two models that they use, and those are the models

2554
02:11:25,520 --> 02:11:27,920
Speaker 8: I think are most relevant. If we look at people

2555
02:11:27,920 --> 02:11:30,760
Speaker 8: who are in the United States without permanent legal status,

2556
02:11:31,160 --> 02:11:33,920
Speaker 8: we make an estimate for numbers, we're looking at about

2557
02:11:33,920 --> 02:11:39,480
Speaker 8: eleven million undocumented people. That's not going to be perfect,

2558
02:11:39,560 --> 02:11:42,240
Speaker 8: but if we use that as a ballpark, and then

2559
02:11:42,320 --> 02:11:44,600
Speaker 8: two point three million people who have entered since the

2560
02:11:44,720 --> 02:11:47,840
Speaker 8: end of Title forty two, and they're on various forms

2561
02:11:47,840 --> 02:11:51,320
Speaker 8: of bail or parole, a bond, and they don't have

2562
02:11:51,640 --> 02:11:55,720
Speaker 8: a permanent status here either rent, So we're looking at

2563
02:11:55,720 --> 02:11:59,160
Speaker 8: somewhere in the region of thirteen million. If Trump wanted

2564
02:11:59,200 --> 02:12:01,360
Speaker 8: to all of those.

2565
02:12:01,080 --> 02:12:02,360
Speaker 6: People right now.

2566
02:12:03,040 --> 02:12:06,440
Speaker 8: To do that, he would need to massively expand ICE

2567
02:12:06,520 --> 02:12:11,280
Speaker 8: detention facilities. About half of ICE's staff aren't Countrary to

2568
02:12:11,280 --> 02:12:14,600
Speaker 8: what you might believe about ICE kicking in people's doors

2569
02:12:14,600 --> 02:12:18,040
Speaker 8: and deporting them, half of ICE's staff work for something

2570
02:12:18,160 --> 02:12:22,320
Speaker 8: called homeod Security Investigations. It's not that those people don't

2571
02:12:22,320 --> 02:12:26,120
Speaker 8: do deportations. They do, but they mostly focus on human trafficking,

2572
02:12:26,240 --> 02:12:30,600
Speaker 8: drug trafficking, transnational crime. Now sometimes as people also do deportations.

2573
02:12:30,640 --> 02:12:33,520
Speaker 8: People might be familiar with the big HSI raids on

2574
02:12:33,560 --> 02:12:36,200
Speaker 8: certain employers who are employing a lot of undocumented people.

2575
02:12:36,840 --> 02:12:40,680
Speaker 8: Those still result in deportations, but that's not their primary tasking,

2576
02:12:40,920 --> 02:12:46,240
Speaker 8: and HSI has historically preferred not to do the deportation

2577
02:12:46,480 --> 02:12:48,560
Speaker 8: work because they feel that that makes it very hard

2578
02:12:48,600 --> 02:12:50,959
Speaker 8: for them to do the other work of like monitoring

2579
02:12:51,040 --> 02:12:54,560
Speaker 8: human and drug trafficking, because evidently migrants are going to

2580
02:12:54,560 --> 02:12:56,920
Speaker 8: be scared to go anywhere near HSI if they know

2581
02:12:57,000 --> 02:12:59,440
Speaker 8: that HSI could deport them, right, So they're not going.

2582
02:12:59,320 --> 02:13:00,160
Speaker 6: To talk to them.

2583
02:13:00,600 --> 02:13:03,120
Speaker 8: Now, it would be very easy for Trump to retask

2584
02:13:03,240 --> 02:13:08,120
Speaker 8: those those agents, right That would obviously undermine what it's

2585
02:13:08,120 --> 02:13:11,120
Speaker 8: done to prevent drug trafficking and human trafficking. Whether or

2586
02:13:11,160 --> 02:13:14,920
Speaker 8: not he cares is a question that's I think I

2587
02:13:14,960 --> 02:13:17,080
Speaker 8: probably have an answer for that. I guess up for

2588
02:13:17,120 --> 02:13:22,240
Speaker 8: debates somewhat. So Trump has already called in addition to

2589
02:13:22,400 --> 02:13:26,840
Speaker 8: potentially re equipping those HSI agents, he said he wants

2590
02:13:26,880 --> 02:13:29,800
Speaker 8: to employ ten thousand more Border Patrol agents.

2591
02:13:29,880 --> 02:13:30,560
Speaker 4: Right now.

2592
02:13:30,840 --> 02:13:34,360
Speaker 8: BP agents can do deportations, but it's not BP agents

2593
02:13:34,400 --> 02:13:37,200
Speaker 8: who are coming to your door in Chicago and coming

2594
02:13:37,240 --> 02:13:39,959
Speaker 8: after you, right that that's ICE Immigration and Customs enforcement.

2595
02:13:40,560 --> 02:13:42,800
Speaker 8: He's also said he wants to give Border plot agents

2596
02:13:43,000 --> 02:13:46,160
Speaker 8: a ten thousand dollars retention bonus and a ten percent raise.

2597
02:13:47,040 --> 02:13:49,080
Speaker 8: Just to put it in the perspective, there are twenty

2598
02:13:49,080 --> 02:13:52,200
Speaker 8: thousand BP agents right now, so that would be about

2599
02:13:52,200 --> 02:13:53,280
Speaker 8: a fifty percent increase.

2600
02:13:53,360 --> 02:13:53,560
Speaker 4: Right.

2601
02:13:53,680 --> 02:13:56,880
Speaker 8: This is not something he can do quickly. They need

2602
02:13:56,920 --> 02:13:59,280
Speaker 8: to go through the academy. They need to be recruited, trained,

2603
02:13:59,720 --> 02:14:02,240
Speaker 8: back and check, et cetera. Border Patrol has a lot

2604
02:14:02,280 --> 02:14:05,280
Speaker 8: of waivers right now, so you can, we can waive

2605
02:14:05,320 --> 02:14:08,080
Speaker 8: requirements that other law enforcement agencies would have few to

2606
02:14:08,120 --> 02:14:09,720
Speaker 8: work for them, if that makes sense, right, be it

2607
02:14:09,760 --> 02:14:13,200
Speaker 8: a GED or a college degree or another language or whatever.

2608
02:14:13,720 --> 02:14:16,480
Speaker 8: They are offering waivers a lot right now. They can

2609
02:14:16,560 --> 02:14:19,200
Speaker 8: increase that number of waivers to recruit more people, right,

2610
02:14:19,280 --> 02:14:23,040
Speaker 8: but that would still take a long time. So the

2611
02:14:23,160 --> 02:14:27,360
Speaker 8: estimate the American Immigration Council has is that to remove

2612
02:14:27,440 --> 02:14:30,200
Speaker 8: all of those thirteen million people in that sort of

2613
02:14:30,240 --> 02:14:32,840
Speaker 8: in the one mass deportation as opposed to a million

2614
02:14:32,840 --> 02:14:36,200
Speaker 8: people a year scenario, would require between two hundred and

2615
02:14:36,200 --> 02:14:39,839
Speaker 8: twenty and four hundred and nine thousand staff Jesus Christ.

2616
02:14:40,600 --> 02:14:42,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, that is a lot of people.

2617
02:14:43,160 --> 02:14:45,920
Speaker 2: So I mean, like, for comparison as to how many

2618
02:14:46,000 --> 02:14:49,280
Speaker 2: that actually is, the United States military active duties about

2619
02:14:49,280 --> 02:14:49,960
Speaker 2: a million people.

2620
02:14:50,080 --> 02:14:52,560
Speaker 8: Yes, that was exactly. That's a comparison. Not the Army,

2621
02:14:53,000 --> 02:14:57,400
Speaker 8: not the Navy, the military, yeah, like all of it. Yeah,

2622
02:14:57,560 --> 02:15:00,200
Speaker 8: this would put DHS at like substantially more personal than

2623
02:15:00,240 --> 02:15:01,840
Speaker 8: like the Marine Corps, right, like.

2624
02:15:02,000 --> 02:15:04,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, not that people don't want to do. It's just

2625
02:15:04,440 --> 02:15:07,480
Speaker 2: like it is. Actually, we've talked a lot about how

2626
02:15:07,480 --> 02:15:09,840
Speaker 2: there are not guard rails on Trump like there were

2627
02:15:09,880 --> 02:15:11,440
Speaker 2: last time. That is true, and that is a very

2628
02:15:11,480 --> 02:15:14,400
Speaker 2: realistic thing to like be worried about and scared about.

2629
02:15:14,400 --> 02:15:17,120
Speaker 2: But that we're not just talking about guard rails. We

2630
02:15:17,200 --> 02:15:20,720
Speaker 2: are talking about a logistical hurdle. It is not a

2631
02:15:20,840 --> 02:15:25,880
Speaker 2: simple or necessarily possible thing to make an agency like

2632
02:15:25,920 --> 02:15:28,960
Speaker 2: that that much larger and have it actually function Like

2633
02:15:29,680 --> 02:15:32,160
Speaker 2: just this is just physics we're talking about here. Yeah,

2634
02:15:32,280 --> 02:15:35,040
Speaker 2: it's the same with anything. If cool Zone suddenly received

2635
02:15:35,080 --> 02:15:37,800
Speaker 2: one hundred billion dollars from Jeff Bezos and he said,

2636
02:15:37,840 --> 02:15:40,680
Speaker 2: do anything you want with it, we could not scale

2637
02:15:40,800 --> 02:15:43,320
Speaker 2: up to half a million employees like.

2638
02:15:45,120 --> 02:15:45,320
Speaker 8: We have.

2639
02:15:45,520 --> 02:15:48,400
Speaker 2: We have absolutely no capacity to handle that.

2640
02:15:49,520 --> 02:15:49,760
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2641
02:15:49,840 --> 02:15:51,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, Like, I think what people have to remember is

2642
02:15:51,960 --> 02:15:54,760
Speaker 8: that every doual kicking ice agent needs to enable us, right.

2643
02:15:54,760 --> 02:15:57,960
Speaker 8: They need paid they need health insurance, they need human resources,

2644
02:15:58,000 --> 02:15:58,879
Speaker 8: they need training.

2645
02:15:59,520 --> 02:16:01,400
Speaker 6: This would make a very long time.

2646
02:16:02,000 --> 02:16:04,400
Speaker 2: Sorry, it's one point three million or so, Okay, I

2647
02:16:04,440 --> 02:16:06,400
Speaker 2: think it's a little less. That's twenty seventeen data, so

2648
02:16:06,680 --> 02:16:09,240
Speaker 2: it's probably as closer to a million now but slightly

2649
02:16:09,280 --> 02:16:10,320
Speaker 2: over a million, but.

2650
02:16:10,280 --> 02:16:12,480
Speaker 8: This is close to that's close to half, right, Yeah,

2651
02:16:12,520 --> 02:16:13,960
Speaker 8: that's in addition to what they already have.

2652
02:16:14,080 --> 02:16:16,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, the four hundred and ninety plus whatever they have.

2653
02:16:16,760 --> 02:16:19,600
Speaker 8: It would also, of course mean like substantially increasing their

2654
02:16:19,600 --> 02:16:24,760
Speaker 8: investigative capacity, because most deportations right now, when ICE arrest

2655
02:16:24,840 --> 02:16:28,000
Speaker 8: someone happen when someone else has already arrested that person.

2656
02:16:28,880 --> 02:16:31,440
Speaker 8: So like the person who's in detention federally or on

2657
02:16:31,440 --> 02:16:33,560
Speaker 8: a state level for something else that they did and

2658
02:16:33,600 --> 02:16:36,840
Speaker 8: they're undocumented, that's when ICE can take them and deport them, right,

2659
02:16:37,080 --> 02:16:40,640
Speaker 8: So they'd have to also increase their ability to search

2660
02:16:40,680 --> 02:16:43,320
Speaker 8: out and find people, not saying they can't, but you

2661
02:16:43,400 --> 02:16:47,080
Speaker 8: can't take you know, fucking Tim Poole, bring him into ICE.

2662
02:16:47,480 --> 02:16:49,600
Speaker 8: He's not going to instantly know how to find people

2663
02:16:49,640 --> 02:16:52,280
Speaker 8: where to find people, right, So like this, this will

2664
02:16:52,320 --> 02:16:52,760
Speaker 8: take time.

2665
02:16:52,800 --> 02:16:54,119
Speaker 6: There is a practical.

2666
02:16:53,680 --> 02:16:56,560
Speaker 8: Constraint on him doing this, even if there aren't other

2667
02:16:56,640 --> 02:17:01,480
Speaker 8: constraints within the balance of powers. So Stephen Miller, dude

2668
02:17:01,520 --> 02:17:03,400
Speaker 8: with the giant head, I'm sorry, but you're going to

2669
02:17:03,480 --> 02:17:05,680
Speaker 8: have to be more specific when we talk about like

2670
02:17:05,800 --> 02:17:08,199
Speaker 8: conservatives who are about to come into power, who have.

2671
02:17:08,200 --> 02:17:09,560
Speaker 4: Like a weirdly huge head.

2672
02:17:09,760 --> 02:17:10,240
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2673
02:17:10,440 --> 02:17:14,280
Speaker 8: Okay, that's like, find me a Californian who has strong

2674
02:17:14,320 --> 02:17:15,359
Speaker 8: opinions on gluten.

2675
02:17:18,080 --> 02:17:20,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's me. I'm a pro glue yeah. Yeah.

2676
02:17:20,879 --> 02:17:24,080
Speaker 8: So Stephen Miller is he is the guy who's crafted

2677
02:17:24,080 --> 02:17:26,720
Speaker 8: a lot of Trump's nefarious border policies.

2678
02:17:26,800 --> 02:17:26,959
Speaker 4: Right.

2679
02:17:27,000 --> 02:17:30,680
Speaker 8: It was Miller who who sook out Title forty two.

2680
02:17:31,280 --> 02:17:33,039
Speaker 8: And I want to talk about this a bit later.

2681
02:17:33,560 --> 02:17:35,920
Speaker 8: One thing that Miller did effectively, I don't want to

2682
02:17:35,959 --> 02:17:38,920
Speaker 8: say well, because it was objectively horrible. But one thing

2683
02:17:38,920 --> 02:17:41,680
Speaker 8: that Miller was good at was finding this obscure piece

2684
02:17:41,720 --> 02:17:45,360
Speaker 8: of public health law and mobilizing it against migrants.

2685
02:17:45,560 --> 02:17:45,720
Speaker 4: Right.

2686
02:17:45,920 --> 02:17:48,480
Speaker 8: I think if you'd spoken to me in twenty fifteen

2687
02:17:48,520 --> 02:17:50,400
Speaker 8: and said what do you think Trump's going to do

2688
02:17:50,400 --> 02:17:52,199
Speaker 8: against migrants, I wouldn't have said, Oh, it'll be Title

2689
02:17:52,240 --> 02:17:54,160
Speaker 8: forty two, the United States Code, you know, that regulates

2690
02:17:54,200 --> 02:17:56,959
Speaker 8: public health. He or people within his team were very

2691
02:17:56,959 --> 02:18:00,280
Speaker 8: effective at finding that and using that effective and the

2692
02:18:00,280 --> 02:18:02,520
Speaker 8: Biden administration kept it for three years after the Trump

2693
02:18:02,520 --> 02:18:06,199
Speaker 8: administration did it for one year, Right, And so Miller

2694
02:18:06,240 --> 02:18:10,640
Speaker 8: could find some niche kind of law. What he wants

2695
02:18:10,680 --> 02:18:15,080
Speaker 8: to do is use the National Guard from cooperative states, right, yeah,

2696
02:18:15,120 --> 02:18:18,920
Speaker 8: and to use a national Guard from cooperative states in

2697
02:18:19,160 --> 02:18:22,240
Speaker 8: states that are not cooperative and where local law enforcement

2698
02:18:22,280 --> 02:18:23,080
Speaker 8: would not cooperate.

2699
02:18:23,160 --> 02:18:23,320
Speaker 4: Right.

2700
02:18:23,440 --> 02:18:26,880
Speaker 8: So, some quote unquote sanctuary states, I think there's probably

2701
02:18:26,879 --> 02:18:30,560
Speaker 8: an overstatement. They don't in theory refer and documented people

2702
02:18:30,560 --> 02:18:34,320
Speaker 8: they arrest to ICE for deportation. Right now, What federal

2703
02:18:34,360 --> 02:18:37,080
Speaker 8: fusion centers do is allow for that even if it

2704
02:18:37,280 --> 02:18:41,160
Speaker 8: is a sanctuary state. Actually, but in theoretical terms, a

2705
02:18:41,200 --> 02:18:44,440
Speaker 8: sanctuary state would not at least contact ICE about every

2706
02:18:44,600 --> 02:18:46,440
Speaker 8: undocumented person they're arrested.

2707
02:18:46,520 --> 02:18:46,680
Speaker 9: Right.

2708
02:18:46,760 --> 02:18:50,200
Speaker 8: So Miller's plan is to use the National Guard. Again, like,

2709
02:18:50,280 --> 02:18:54,039
Speaker 8: that's not what the National Guard does right now. They're

2710
02:18:54,040 --> 02:18:57,120
Speaker 8: not really trained up for doing that either, Right. I've

2711
02:18:57,400 --> 02:19:02,119
Speaker 8: seen plenty of National Guard folks on the border. I

2712
02:19:02,400 --> 02:19:05,160
Speaker 8: it's a bunch of scared eighteen year olds, right who

2713
02:19:05,200 --> 02:19:06,680
Speaker 8: are trying to get money through robat And I have

2714
02:19:06,840 --> 02:19:09,160
Speaker 8: met Texas National Guide.

2715
02:19:09,760 --> 02:19:10,920
Speaker 4: They're kids. They're kids.

2716
02:19:11,200 --> 02:19:11,520
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2717
02:19:11,560 --> 02:19:15,000
Speaker 2: Now, to be fair, that's not saying they're like innocent

2718
02:19:15,160 --> 02:19:18,119
Speaker 2: or inherent Like every group of soldiers who has done

2719
02:19:18,160 --> 02:19:21,879
Speaker 2: any good or bad things, and often but usually both

2720
02:19:21,920 --> 02:19:24,560
Speaker 2: at the same time, it's a bunch of scared eighteen

2721
02:19:24,640 --> 02:19:27,280
Speaker 2: year old kids. Yes, that's been the case for ten

2722
02:19:27,400 --> 02:19:30,720
Speaker 2: thousand years. Yeah, that's true.

2723
02:19:30,760 --> 02:19:34,160
Speaker 8: Anytime you have conflict reporting, you it's always shocking how

2724
02:19:34,200 --> 02:19:34,840
Speaker 8: young people are.

2725
02:19:35,040 --> 02:19:37,320
Speaker 2: It's always just like, oh, okay, all wars are fought

2726
02:19:37,360 --> 02:19:40,000
Speaker 2: by children. There's no non child soldiers, with the exception

2727
02:19:40,160 --> 02:19:41,520
Speaker 2: of I mean, that is the weird thing about the

2728
02:19:41,600 --> 02:19:44,039
Speaker 2: Ukraine War, right yet, Like I remember the first time

2729
02:19:44,080 --> 02:19:45,640
Speaker 2: I wound up at the front there, it was like, oh,

2730
02:19:45,720 --> 02:19:49,240
Speaker 2: this is actually it is actually old men fighting this war,

2731
02:19:49,280 --> 02:19:51,959
Speaker 2: old men who repeatedly told me it's either me or

2732
02:19:52,000 --> 02:19:54,400
Speaker 2: my kid shows up here. And I already fucking lost

2733
02:19:54,400 --> 02:19:57,040
Speaker 2: my soul in Afghanistan, Yes, like I literally had that

2734
02:19:57,120 --> 02:19:57,920
Speaker 2: interview with people.

2735
02:19:58,400 --> 02:20:00,720
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's crazy to me people who are

2736
02:20:00,720 --> 02:20:03,160
Speaker 8: in Afghanistan and fighting again. Yeah, I mean I think

2737
02:20:03,160 --> 02:20:06,000
Speaker 8: those guys are probably out now. There's uptop back fifty. Yeah,

2738
02:20:06,000 --> 02:20:07,960
Speaker 8: I think twenty twenty four, so it's forty years later.

2739
02:20:08,280 --> 02:20:09,520
Speaker 4: I'm sure they're too old now.

2740
02:20:09,640 --> 02:20:12,960
Speaker 8: But Robert talking of being too old, I unfortunately I

2741
02:20:12,959 --> 02:20:16,400
Speaker 8: am not too old to be obliged to transition to advertisement.

2742
02:20:16,440 --> 02:20:17,360
Speaker 4: So that's what we're going to do.

2743
02:20:17,640 --> 02:20:19,720
Speaker 2: You're never too old for that. James and in fact,

2744
02:20:19,720 --> 02:20:22,360
Speaker 2: the older you get. It's kind of like how if

2745
02:20:22,360 --> 02:20:25,360
Speaker 2: you reread Moby Dick at different points in your life,

2746
02:20:25,400 --> 02:20:28,600
Speaker 2: it's a completely different novel, every ten years, different book.

2747
02:20:29,040 --> 02:20:31,800
Speaker 2: The same thing is true with Ulysses, and the same

2748
02:20:31,840 --> 02:20:34,640
Speaker 2: thing is true with these advertisements. That's right, Save them,

2749
02:20:34,760 --> 02:20:37,520
Speaker 2: record them on your home device, and every couple of

2750
02:20:37,520 --> 02:20:40,160
Speaker 2: months listen and you'll you'll learn something new from jumpa

2751
02:20:40,160 --> 02:20:41,400
Speaker 2: Casino every time.

2752
02:20:52,120 --> 02:20:54,200
Speaker 8: All Right, we're back, and I hope you've downloaded that

2753
02:20:54,240 --> 02:20:56,760
Speaker 8: chump of casino at for later in the event of

2754
02:20:56,760 --> 02:20:59,040
Speaker 8: a great down scenario, you could have a whole library

2755
02:20:59,040 --> 02:21:03,439
Speaker 8: of those to listen to. So talking of obscure legislations,

2756
02:21:03,440 --> 02:21:06,280
Speaker 8: we did right. Trump and his team have mentioned this

2757
02:21:06,400 --> 02:21:09,960
Speaker 8: thing called the Alien Enemies Act. It sounds like alien

2758
02:21:10,000 --> 02:21:12,119
Speaker 8: Ant Farm, but it's not in any way related.

2759
02:21:12,160 --> 02:21:14,440
Speaker 2: Sadly, not nearly as good as for one thing, it's

2760
02:21:14,480 --> 02:21:17,080
Speaker 2: cover of smooth Criminal, terrible, terrible.

2761
02:21:17,160 --> 02:21:20,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, no, nowhere near the same standard. That's a joke

2762
02:21:20,480 --> 02:21:22,000
Speaker 8: for people who are over thirty.

2763
02:21:22,320 --> 02:21:24,920
Speaker 2: Yes, anyone who tries to dance to that alien Ant

2764
02:21:24,959 --> 02:21:27,200
Speaker 2: Farm song today not only has to think about the

2765
02:21:27,200 --> 02:21:29,680
Speaker 2: fact that Michael Jackson was definitely a pedophile, but also

2766
02:21:29,720 --> 02:21:31,879
Speaker 2: their needs no longer work.

2767
02:21:32,280 --> 02:21:43,800
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's a loseless just sadly shuffling along, properly moonwalking

2768
02:21:43,840 --> 02:21:46,760
Speaker 8: while crying, uh, taking iberprofen. No. I was at a

2769
02:21:46,760 --> 02:21:49,760
Speaker 8: street light show in Portland that was all millennials and

2770
02:21:49,840 --> 02:21:52,360
Speaker 8: every time like the pit was crazy, but also it

2771
02:21:52,480 --> 02:21:55,360
Speaker 8: sounded like a cement mixer when everybody's knees got going,

2772
02:21:58,600 --> 02:22:02,280
Speaker 8: doling out hyberprofen and the way out. So you're going

2773
02:22:02,320 --> 02:22:07,840
Speaker 8: to need this tomorrows. So the Alien Enemies Act, it

2774
02:22:07,879 --> 02:22:10,120
Speaker 8: hasn't been used since the United States used it in

2775
02:22:10,200 --> 02:22:13,280
Speaker 8: the Second World War for in tournament camps, right, which,

2776
02:22:14,000 --> 02:22:15,800
Speaker 8: at least for many of US, is are part of

2777
02:22:15,920 --> 02:22:18,840
Speaker 8: national shame. I guess like a pretty terrible fucking thing

2778
02:22:18,879 --> 02:22:21,680
Speaker 8: that United States did. Obviously, for some folks in the

2779
02:22:21,680 --> 02:22:24,400
Speaker 8: Trump administration, this is something that they're kind of aspiring to.

2780
02:22:24,560 --> 02:22:27,200
Speaker 8: I guess Trump has said that he would like to

2781
02:22:27,280 --> 02:22:30,160
Speaker 8: use this to deport gang members. That's not really what

2782
02:22:30,320 --> 02:22:33,920
Speaker 8: it's for. And like even sources within DHS have pointed

2783
02:22:33,920 --> 02:22:37,640
Speaker 8: out that they would have to prove that these migrants

2784
02:22:37,640 --> 02:22:40,760
Speaker 8: were sent by a foreign government, right, or someone that

2785
02:22:40,800 --> 02:22:43,240
Speaker 8: the US is at war with. This is going to

2786
02:22:43,320 --> 02:22:45,760
Speaker 8: be hard, because, like if we look at Venezuelans, who

2787
02:22:45,760 --> 02:22:48,200
Speaker 8: are representing a larger and larger proportion of migrants since

2788
02:22:48,200 --> 02:22:51,720
Speaker 8: the elections there, they will actively shit talk the government

2789
02:22:51,800 --> 02:22:55,560
Speaker 8: of their country at the first opportunity. I have met hundreds,

2790
02:22:55,560 --> 02:22:59,200
Speaker 8: if not thousands of Venezuelan migrants in California and in

2791
02:22:59,240 --> 02:23:02,680
Speaker 8: the Dallian Gap, and yeah, you're not going to find

2792
02:23:02,680 --> 02:23:05,199
Speaker 8: people who you can plausibly say were sent.

2793
02:23:05,080 --> 02:23:06,119
Speaker 4: By Maduro that way.

2794
02:23:06,600 --> 02:23:10,240
Speaker 8: Yeah, but Miller's pretty good at finding these obscure laws

2795
02:23:10,440 --> 02:23:13,240
Speaker 8: and ways of doing things. So we would be fully

2796
02:23:13,280 --> 02:23:15,360
Speaker 8: to write this off entirely. But I don't think that

2797
02:23:15,400 --> 02:23:18,440
Speaker 8: will make up the bulk of these mass deportations. So

2798
02:23:18,840 --> 02:23:21,040
Speaker 8: I want to go to that American Immigration Council report,

2799
02:23:21,080 --> 02:23:23,560
Speaker 8: which our link in the show notes. Right, assuming a

2800
02:23:23,640 --> 02:23:26,119
Speaker 8: million deportations a year, which is what jd. Vance said

2801
02:23:26,160 --> 02:23:28,720
Speaker 8: to The New York Times, that's the sort of steady

2802
02:23:28,760 --> 02:23:32,120
Speaker 8: deportation scenario as opposed to the mass deportation of thirteen

2803
02:23:32,120 --> 02:23:37,440
Speaker 8: million people scenario, which a steady one is is more

2804
02:23:37,480 --> 02:23:41,240
Speaker 8: realistic in terms of practicality. Right, the cost of that,

2805
02:23:41,440 --> 02:23:44,480
Speaker 8: assuming that twenty percent of undocumented people decided to leave

2806
02:23:44,520 --> 02:23:47,560
Speaker 8: on their own would be about eighty eight billion a year,

2807
02:23:47,879 --> 02:23:49,000
Speaker 8: which is a large amount of money.

2808
02:23:49,120 --> 02:23:50,520
Speaker 4: We'll talk in a little bit about what you could

2809
02:23:50,520 --> 02:23:51,240
Speaker 4: get with that money.

2810
02:23:51,360 --> 02:23:54,720
Speaker 8: A one off massed deportation would cost about three hundred

2811
02:23:54,720 --> 02:23:58,840
Speaker 8: and fifteen billion. The detention costs alone for that one

2812
02:23:58,920 --> 02:24:02,280
Speaker 8: off massed deportation of eleven to thirteen million people would

2813
02:24:02,320 --> 02:24:05,840
Speaker 8: be one hundred and sixty seven point eight billion dollars,

2814
02:24:06,440 --> 02:24:10,680
Speaker 8: which is probably why private prison group geo groups stock

2815
02:24:10,760 --> 02:24:13,840
Speaker 8: sawed this week. Right if Trump wants to deport people,

2816
02:24:14,160 --> 02:24:17,600
Speaker 8: the average deportee is detained for fifty nine days before

2817
02:24:17,600 --> 02:24:21,720
Speaker 8: they're deported, and so they are going to massively have

2818
02:24:21,840 --> 02:24:26,039
Speaker 8: to increase their capacity. Right now, their current detention contract

2819
02:24:26,160 --> 02:24:29,240
Speaker 8: includes a minimum of twenty nine thousand, seven hundred and

2820
02:24:29,280 --> 02:24:32,840
Speaker 8: ninety beds between like increases and other facilities they have

2821
02:24:32,879 --> 02:24:35,680
Speaker 8: access to, and early twenty twenty four, accralling to the

2822
02:24:35,720 --> 02:24:39,440
Speaker 8: American Immigration Council, they detained thirty nine thousand people. Astute

2823
02:24:39,480 --> 02:24:42,520
Speaker 8: listeners will notice that eleven million and thirty nine thousand

2824
02:24:42,520 --> 02:24:46,800
Speaker 8: are quite quite desparate as numbers go. So, ah, yeah,

2825
02:24:47,600 --> 02:24:51,000
Speaker 8: I mean you're talking about a huge percentage of Like

2826
02:24:51,240 --> 02:24:53,440
Speaker 8: we'll get into this later, But in California, Texas, and

2827
02:24:53,440 --> 02:24:55,840
Speaker 8: Florida it's between five and six percent of the population

2828
02:24:55,920 --> 02:25:00,600
Speaker 8: are undocumented. Right, you're talking about building prison city. If

2829
02:25:00,640 --> 02:25:03,360
Speaker 8: you were to detain that many people, then one fell

2830
02:25:03,400 --> 02:25:07,520
Speaker 8: swoop Again. That takes time. But in this case it's

2831
02:25:07,600 --> 02:25:10,160
Speaker 8: private sector actors like Geogroup. They can tend to move

2832
02:25:10,200 --> 02:25:14,080
Speaker 8: a little bit faster. Right, So to put that cost

2833
02:25:14,400 --> 02:25:16,880
Speaker 8: in terms of things that the government could do with

2834
02:25:16,920 --> 02:25:20,520
Speaker 8: the money instead, Right, a decade of one million deportations

2835
02:25:20,560 --> 02:25:24,519
Speaker 8: a year means foregoing forty four hundred and fifty elementary

2836
02:25:24,520 --> 02:25:27,560
Speaker 8: schools or two point nine million new homes, or funding

2837
02:25:27,560 --> 02:25:30,920
Speaker 8: the head Start program for seventy nine years. A single

2838
02:25:30,959 --> 02:25:33,720
Speaker 8: year of mass deportation would cost nearly twice the National

2839
02:25:33,800 --> 02:25:37,360
Speaker 8: Institute of Health's annual budget, or eighteen times a global

2840
02:25:37,400 --> 02:25:41,680
Speaker 8: annual expenditure on cancer research. So I guess that's shit

2841
02:25:41,720 --> 02:25:44,959
Speaker 8: that we could have instead. But that's not all because

2842
02:25:45,120 --> 02:25:48,840
Speaker 8: undocumented households, contrary to what you might have heard, paid taxes.

2843
02:25:49,160 --> 02:25:54,200
Speaker 8: And if we deported every undocumented person in the United States,

2844
02:25:54,480 --> 02:25:57,560
Speaker 8: we look at twenty twenty two numbers, undocumented households paid

2845
02:25:57,600 --> 02:26:00,200
Speaker 8: forty six point eight billion in federal taxes and nine

2846
02:26:00,240 --> 02:26:02,720
Speaker 8: point three billion in state and local taxes. That's a

2847
02:26:02,840 --> 02:26:08,640
Speaker 8: huge amount of tax revenue forgone right, absolutely, yeah, that again,

2848
02:26:09,200 --> 02:26:11,680
Speaker 8: that won't be the end of it, because some industries

2849
02:26:11,879 --> 02:26:16,760
Speaker 8: like construction and agriculture rely heavily on undocumented labor. And

2850
02:26:16,800 --> 02:26:18,840
Speaker 8: if you're worried about the cost of your groceries, now

2851
02:26:19,120 --> 02:26:21,840
Speaker 8: if people voted for Donald Trump, because that egg costs more,

2852
02:26:22,560 --> 02:26:26,160
Speaker 8: shit will cost an awful lot more if we deport the.

2853
02:26:26,160 --> 02:26:28,080
Speaker 4: Undocumented people working in agriculture.

2854
02:26:28,160 --> 02:26:32,879
Speaker 8: Right, sectors of that industry do not function economically without

2855
02:26:33,000 --> 02:26:36,280
Speaker 8: underpaid migrant labor. And this is something that migrants are

2856
02:26:36,360 --> 02:26:39,320
Speaker 8: very aware of. Actually I broadcast interview with one of

2857
02:26:39,360 --> 02:26:40,959
Speaker 8: them last week. But they know that they will be

2858
02:26:41,040 --> 02:26:44,360
Speaker 8: underpaid because they're undocumented, but they still think that that's

2859
02:26:44,360 --> 02:26:47,680
Speaker 8: worth it for them to be safe. Right, So for

2860
02:26:47,720 --> 02:26:50,400
Speaker 8: going that, I don't think Trump has not proposed a

2861
02:26:50,440 --> 02:26:53,160
Speaker 8: solution to this, right like these sort of this long

2862
02:26:53,200 --> 02:26:55,600
Speaker 8: form thinking is not what he does certainly in his speeches,

2863
02:26:55,640 --> 02:26:58,879
Speaker 8: but that would have a massive impact on the economy.

2864
02:26:59,200 --> 02:27:02,320
Speaker 8: What he would also certainly need to do is persuade

2865
02:27:02,320 --> 02:27:05,199
Speaker 8: the countries that these migrants come from to take them back,

2866
02:27:05,840 --> 02:27:09,160
Speaker 8: and that has historically been something that has been extremely difficult.

2867
02:27:09,280 --> 02:27:10,760
Speaker 4: The State Department.

2868
02:27:10,680 --> 02:27:16,400
Speaker 8: Doesn't see the sort of process of persuading people to

2869
02:27:17,080 --> 02:27:20,680
Speaker 8: accept migrants as really within its remit, and it certainly

2870
02:27:20,800 --> 02:27:23,520
Speaker 8: sort of bristle that having to do this the last

2871
02:27:23,520 --> 02:27:27,440
Speaker 8: Trump administration. I think a mass deportation like this it

2872
02:27:27,480 --> 02:27:30,280
Speaker 8: would trigger some nations refusing to take people back, for instance,

2873
02:27:30,280 --> 02:27:33,400
Speaker 8: to Venezuela. Right, Venezuela is already not taking people back

2874
02:27:33,400 --> 02:27:36,240
Speaker 8: from Panama. You at the US funds deportations for Panama.

2875
02:27:36,640 --> 02:27:39,440
Speaker 8: Venezuela and Panama have ceased relations after the election in

2876
02:27:39,520 --> 02:27:43,280
Speaker 8: Venezuela and Panama rightly claiming that that was a fraudulent election,

2877
02:27:43,800 --> 02:27:46,039
Speaker 8: and as a result, Panama is now looking for a

2878
02:27:46,040 --> 02:27:49,320
Speaker 8: third country to deport these people too. If the US

2879
02:27:49,320 --> 02:27:53,119
Speaker 8: attempted to deport potentially millions people to Venezuela again, there's

2880
02:27:53,160 --> 02:27:56,200
Speaker 8: no guarantee that Madua has to accept them back.

2881
02:27:56,480 --> 02:27:56,640
Speaker 4: Right.

2882
02:27:57,000 --> 02:27:59,039
Speaker 1: I can hear a lot of people saying, how is

2883
02:27:59,080 --> 02:28:00,359
Speaker 1: that allowed.

2884
02:28:00,520 --> 02:28:01,960
Speaker 4: To not accept take them back?

2885
02:28:02,240 --> 02:28:03,720
Speaker 1: Yeah?

2886
02:28:03,800 --> 02:28:07,880
Speaker 8: I mean if international law is like it's a unicorn,

2887
02:28:07,959 --> 02:28:09,520
Speaker 8: Like you know, if everyone agrees that they see it,

2888
02:28:09,520 --> 02:28:11,480
Speaker 8: and they see it, but it's not real, right, So

2889
02:28:11,680 --> 02:28:14,920
Speaker 8: like who is going to make them? I guess, like,

2890
02:28:14,920 --> 02:28:17,840
Speaker 8: like whether it's allowed or not, it's kind of immaterial.

2891
02:28:17,959 --> 02:28:20,360
Speaker 8: Madua is not allowed to steal the election, right, you're

2892
02:28:20,360 --> 02:28:23,160
Speaker 8: not allowed to abuse human rights. Migrants are allowed to

2893
02:28:23,160 --> 02:28:25,600
Speaker 8: cross any country they want and claim asylum anywhere that

2894
02:28:25,640 --> 02:28:29,360
Speaker 8: they feel safe. But like here we are so Yeah,

2895
02:28:29,360 --> 02:28:31,720
Speaker 8: in theory a country should accept its citizens back and

2896
02:28:31,840 --> 02:28:32,680
Speaker 8: practice will it?

2897
02:28:33,360 --> 02:28:34,520
Speaker 6: I don't know, certainly.

2898
02:28:34,560 --> 02:28:36,680
Speaker 8: It becomes like a bigger issue when you have millions

2899
02:28:36,720 --> 02:28:38,600
Speaker 8: of people, right, And if we have millions of people

2900
02:28:39,280 --> 02:28:43,680
Speaker 8: deported back, then like if we can't deport them, where

2901
02:28:43,680 --> 02:28:45,240
Speaker 8: are we going to detain them? That gets back to

2902
02:28:45,280 --> 02:28:49,800
Speaker 8: the cost of detentions, right, talking of costs should probably

2903
02:28:49,840 --> 02:28:53,080
Speaker 8: cover the costs of our podcasting set up here by

2904
02:28:53,160 --> 02:29:09,920
Speaker 8: pivoting to adverts again, Yeah, we are back, and for

2905
02:29:10,000 --> 02:29:12,440
Speaker 8: the final segment here, I want to talk about who

2906
02:29:12,640 --> 02:29:16,920
Speaker 8: Trump could pursue with these deportations. Right, there's two major groups.

2907
02:29:17,160 --> 02:29:19,200
Speaker 8: The obvious starting point would be the two point three

2908
02:29:19,200 --> 02:29:22,199
Speaker 8: million people who cross between January of twenty twenty three

2909
02:29:22,280 --> 02:29:25,480
Speaker 8: and April of this year before Biden signed his Asylum band.

2910
02:29:25,879 --> 02:29:26,480
Speaker 6: To be prescribed.

2911
02:29:26,560 --> 02:29:28,840
Speaker 8: That to two million two hundred and sixty four eight

2912
02:29:28,920 --> 02:29:34,279
Speaker 8: hundred and thirty. Those people don't have permanent immigration status.

2913
02:29:34,320 --> 02:29:36,200
Speaker 8: Those are the people who you've heard from on this

2914
02:29:36,280 --> 02:29:39,120
Speaker 8: podcast who are in cucumber right, the people who we've

2915
02:29:39,160 --> 02:29:42,680
Speaker 8: interviewed for the last year and a bit now. They

2916
02:29:43,080 --> 02:29:45,640
Speaker 8: have various immigration status, but none of them are permanent.

2917
02:29:45,680 --> 02:29:48,400
Speaker 8: None of them have permanent residency. All of them are

2918
02:29:48,440 --> 02:29:51,320
Speaker 8: obviously registered right. They normally have a notice to appear

2919
02:29:51,320 --> 02:29:54,440
Speaker 8: in court, which would make them easy to find and

2920
02:29:54,640 --> 02:29:57,000
Speaker 8: potentially easy to deport.

2921
02:29:57,360 --> 02:29:59,039
Speaker 6: The other group of people.

2922
02:29:59,360 --> 02:30:01,800
Speaker 8: Are the documented migrant who have been here for longer

2923
02:30:01,800 --> 02:30:04,240
Speaker 8: than that. Many of them have most have been in

2924
02:30:04,240 --> 02:30:06,840
Speaker 8: the country for more than a decade. They're working, They

2925
02:30:06,879 --> 02:30:11,160
Speaker 8: often have citizen children right because of birthright citizenship. Most

2926
02:30:11,160 --> 02:30:13,840
Speaker 8: of the pay taxes. Most of these people have some

2927
02:30:14,080 --> 02:30:17,560
Speaker 8: form of revocable legal status, so that might be something

2928
02:30:17,560 --> 02:30:19,840
Speaker 8: called a temporary protected status. We talked about a temporary

2929
02:30:19,840 --> 02:30:22,520
Speaker 8: protected status last week as well, but it applies to

2930
02:30:22,560 --> 02:30:24,640
Speaker 8: people who are already in the country when it's granted

2931
02:30:25,200 --> 02:30:27,240
Speaker 8: and it allows them to stay for a designated period

2932
02:30:27,240 --> 02:30:29,320
Speaker 8: of time while it's not safe to deport them to

2933
02:30:29,360 --> 02:30:31,480
Speaker 8: their home country. Let's say there's been a war or

2934
02:30:31,480 --> 02:30:34,640
Speaker 8: a natural disaster, right, it's not safe to deport them,

2935
02:30:35,000 --> 02:30:37,640
Speaker 8: but it gets renewed two months before the end of

2936
02:30:37,640 --> 02:30:40,360
Speaker 8: that period. Let's say it renews every eighteen months, and

2937
02:30:40,400 --> 02:30:41,800
Speaker 8: you find out two months before the end of that

2938
02:30:41,840 --> 02:30:43,920
Speaker 8: period if it's not going to be renewed. If they

2939
02:30:43,920 --> 02:30:47,720
Speaker 8: didn't renew those TPSS, those people could either change status

2940
02:30:48,440 --> 02:30:49,840
Speaker 8: or would become undocumented.

2941
02:30:50,200 --> 02:30:50,320
Speaker 3: Right.

2942
02:30:50,680 --> 02:30:53,440
Speaker 8: The TPS has existed since nineteen ninety and they're about

2943
02:30:53,440 --> 02:30:55,800
Speaker 8: eight hundred and sixty thousand people on TPS right now.

2944
02:30:56,520 --> 02:30:58,680
Speaker 8: The other major category that people will probably be more

2945
02:30:58,720 --> 02:31:01,520
Speaker 8: familiar with are Dreamer, people who came to the United

2946
02:31:01,560 --> 02:31:05,560
Speaker 8: States as children and are undocumented, but they benefit from

2947
02:31:05,560 --> 02:31:08,680
Speaker 8: something called Darker Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, and about

2948
02:31:08,720 --> 02:31:11,920
Speaker 8: eight hundred and thirty four thousand young people benefit from this,

2949
02:31:12,040 --> 02:31:14,840
Speaker 8: which allows them to receive a renewable two year period

2950
02:31:14,840 --> 02:31:18,640
Speaker 8: of deferred action from deportation. Trump did try and go

2951
02:31:18,720 --> 02:31:22,160
Speaker 8: after this in his previous term in twenty eighteen. He

2952
02:31:22,280 --> 02:31:25,440
Speaker 8: ended up in a two year court battle which sort

2953
02:31:25,480 --> 02:31:29,520
Speaker 8: of finished up with NAACP versus Trump, and that ran

2954
02:31:29,560 --> 02:31:32,279
Speaker 8: out the clock on his term and Biden reinstated Darker,

2955
02:31:32,480 --> 02:31:35,440
Speaker 8: but again because people have to register for darker, their

2956
02:31:35,520 --> 02:31:39,560
Speaker 8: whereabouts are easier for someone like ICE to potentially find.

2957
02:31:40,240 --> 02:31:43,320
Speaker 8: Then after that, we have people who entered without being detected.

2958
02:31:43,959 --> 02:31:47,720
Speaker 8: We have people who overstayed their visas. Those people might

2959
02:31:47,720 --> 02:31:51,400
Speaker 8: be harder to find. The model of the undocumented migrant

2960
02:31:51,400 --> 02:31:53,480
Speaker 8: that people have in their head comes across the border

2961
02:31:53,520 --> 02:31:57,160
Speaker 8: with carpet shoes, sneaks past a BP checkpoint, and then

2962
02:31:57,280 --> 02:32:01,439
Speaker 8: lives in the United States without ever encountering migration authorities.

2963
02:32:01,480 --> 02:32:04,840
Speaker 8: That's actually not the majority model, but those people do exist,

2964
02:32:04,920 --> 02:32:08,000
Speaker 8: and that they would be harder for ICE to find potentially.

2965
02:32:09,040 --> 02:32:11,480
Speaker 8: Trump is also vowed to end parole programs that allow

2966
02:32:11,560 --> 02:32:14,360
Speaker 8: Ukrainians and Afghans to enter the USA and work. I

2967
02:32:14,360 --> 02:32:16,680
Speaker 8: would think that some of those would be pretty unpopular.

2968
02:32:16,720 --> 02:32:19,400
Speaker 8: People have been much more broadly in solidarity with Ukrainian

2969
02:32:19,440 --> 02:32:21,680
Speaker 8: migrants than they have with other migrants in other parts

2970
02:32:21,680 --> 02:32:24,360
Speaker 8: of the world. They'll say, but it would be an

2971
02:32:24,360 --> 02:32:25,800
Speaker 8: easy one again for him to end.

2972
02:32:25,879 --> 02:32:26,080
Speaker 6: Right.

2973
02:32:26,920 --> 02:32:28,640
Speaker 8: The last thing he's really said he wanted to do

2974
02:32:29,360 --> 02:32:31,599
Speaker 8: is to end birthright citizenship.

2975
02:32:32,120 --> 02:32:32,320
Speaker 6: Yep.

2976
02:32:33,200 --> 02:32:37,000
Speaker 8: That is I spoke about this before in our Agenda

2977
02:32:37,040 --> 02:32:41,000
Speaker 8: forty seven episodes. That's pretty clear in the fourteenth Amendment.

2978
02:32:41,520 --> 02:32:43,560
Speaker 8: They have some kind of fringes on the flag. Legal

2979
02:32:43,600 --> 02:32:46,640
Speaker 8: theory around this, but like I would think that that

2980
02:32:46,680 --> 02:32:49,120
Speaker 8: will require a constitutional amendment, but who knows, because he

2981
02:32:49,200 --> 02:32:51,680
Speaker 8: might have both houses and the Supreme Court on his side,

2982
02:32:51,720 --> 02:32:54,000
Speaker 8: so he might just be able to get away with

2983
02:32:54,080 --> 02:32:57,440
Speaker 8: doing that. This obviously wouldn't rescind citizenship from people who

2984
02:32:57,480 --> 02:33:01,440
Speaker 8: have previously have said children who are citizens. Talking of

2985
02:33:01,520 --> 02:33:03,760
Speaker 8: people have children as citizens. They are about four million

2986
02:33:03,840 --> 02:33:06,879
Speaker 8: mixed status families in the United States, so this deportation

2987
02:33:06,920 --> 02:33:10,640
Speaker 8: plan could potentially separate parents from children and children from parents,

2988
02:33:10,920 --> 02:33:13,039
Speaker 8: children from their older parents who they take care of.

2989
02:33:13,480 --> 02:33:16,680
Speaker 8: It could destroy these families, right, Deportations always destroy families.

2990
02:33:16,680 --> 02:33:20,199
Speaker 8: I've seen this happening myself, and it's horrible. The states

2991
02:33:20,240 --> 02:33:22,960
Speaker 8: where this would most likely happen the states of the

2992
02:33:23,040 --> 02:33:28,360
Speaker 8: highest documented population at California, Texas, and Florida. California thus

2993
02:33:28,440 --> 02:33:32,119
Speaker 8: far retains its sanctuary policies. Texas of Florida very much

2994
02:33:32,200 --> 02:33:35,200
Speaker 8: do not, right, and so those would be the states

2995
02:33:35,200 --> 02:33:37,359
Speaker 8: where they will be the highest risk of this happening.

2996
02:33:38,080 --> 02:33:40,640
Speaker 8: That's between five and six percent of their population, and

2997
02:33:40,680 --> 02:33:45,320
Speaker 8: that's kind of where I want to finish up today.

2998
02:33:45,320 --> 02:33:47,000
Speaker 8: I've got some more stuff I wanted to say about

2999
02:33:47,040 --> 02:33:48,920
Speaker 8: his border policy, but I think I'm going to say

3000
02:33:48,920 --> 02:33:52,160
Speaker 8: that for another episode, because the border and immigration are

3001
02:33:52,160 --> 02:33:55,200
Speaker 8: different things, and I think sometimes this is something that

3002
02:33:55,280 --> 02:33:58,680
Speaker 8: a lot of legacy media doesn't understand. They have immigration

3003
02:33:58,800 --> 02:34:02,000
Speaker 8: reporters who report immigrant law, the stuff I've spoken about today,

3004
02:34:02,560 --> 02:34:04,680
Speaker 8: but the border is not somewhere that they go and

3005
02:34:04,720 --> 02:34:06,800
Speaker 8: it's not something that they cover very well. If you've

3006
02:34:06,840 --> 02:34:08,320
Speaker 8: been listening for a while, you'll know that I've spent

3007
02:34:08,400 --> 02:34:10,400
Speaker 8: a lot of time at the border on the ground,

3008
02:34:10,480 --> 02:34:13,520
Speaker 8: in the mountains, in the desert, and that's something that

3009
02:34:13,959 --> 02:34:16,520
Speaker 8: we've covered in great depth here, and I'm pretty happy

3010
02:34:16,560 --> 02:34:18,600
Speaker 8: that listeners have a really complete understanding of it.

3011
02:34:19,320 --> 02:34:24,200
Speaker 1: Would California actually be able to enforce being a sanctuary

3012
02:34:24,280 --> 02:34:24,840
Speaker 1: state or.

3013
02:34:24,800 --> 02:34:28,320
Speaker 8: Now, yes, in the it's law enforcement doesn't have to

3014
02:34:28,600 --> 02:34:32,959
Speaker 8: call ice right, the federal government cannot compel local law

3015
02:34:33,080 --> 02:34:35,080
Speaker 8: enforcement to state law enforcement to do its work.

3016
02:34:35,120 --> 02:34:36,640
Speaker 6: That is very well established.

3017
02:34:37,040 --> 02:34:40,360
Speaker 8: Again, nothing's off the cards when you have both Houses

3018
02:34:40,400 --> 02:34:44,800
Speaker 8: of Congress and the Supreme Court. But again that would

3019
02:34:44,800 --> 02:34:47,400
Speaker 8: take time and it would take a court battle. So

3020
02:34:47,520 --> 02:34:50,920
Speaker 8: what they can do now is not report those people, right,

3021
02:34:51,000 --> 02:34:52,800
Speaker 8: not say hey, we got someone here. He came in

3022
02:34:52,879 --> 02:34:56,080
Speaker 8: because we found him with a bag of weed. He's undocumented.

3023
02:34:56,600 --> 02:34:59,320
Speaker 8: You know, he was driving thirty five and a thirty

3024
02:34:59,400 --> 02:35:02,360
Speaker 8: he's undocked, invented. These are things that people who are

3025
02:35:02,400 --> 02:35:05,360
Speaker 8: undocumented have to worry about, right Like, for those of

3026
02:35:05,360 --> 02:35:08,240
Speaker 8: you who don't have undocumented folks in your life, Like

3027
02:35:09,160 --> 02:35:13,400
Speaker 8: it's a speeding ticket, it's the most minor in it's

3028
02:35:13,440 --> 02:35:15,680
Speaker 8: not paying a parking ticket and ending up in court,

3029
02:35:15,720 --> 02:35:18,840
Speaker 8: right Like, this shit is so minor to so many people,

3030
02:35:19,000 --> 02:35:23,280
Speaker 8: but it could tear someone's life apart. And so I

3031
02:35:23,320 --> 02:35:26,640
Speaker 8: want to like finish up by saying that, yeah, Texas

3032
02:35:26,640 --> 02:35:29,160
Speaker 8: and Florida are going to be the places where we

3033
02:35:29,200 --> 02:35:31,480
Speaker 8: see this. Yeah, five percent of the population is a

3034
02:35:31,560 --> 02:35:35,640
Speaker 8: large amount of your population. If he even attempts half

3035
02:35:35,680 --> 02:35:39,000
Speaker 8: of that, people are going to see this. It's going

3036
02:35:39,040 --> 02:35:41,760
Speaker 8: to happen in your community. Now, I'm not saying he will,

3037
02:35:42,320 --> 02:35:45,240
Speaker 8: but if it does, Like the time to start organizing

3038
02:35:45,280 --> 02:35:47,880
Speaker 8: to protect people you care about is now. Be that

3039
02:35:47,920 --> 02:35:50,560
Speaker 8: with their nations, to groups like Alo Torolalo, who have

3040
02:35:50,640 --> 02:35:53,320
Speaker 8: successfully sued the Trump and buy An administrations for my

3041
02:35:53,360 --> 02:35:58,000
Speaker 8: goods rights. Be that with organizing such that your undocumented

3042
02:35:58,040 --> 02:35:59,960
Speaker 8: friends don't end up in court because they couldn't pay

3043
02:36:00,120 --> 02:36:02,720
Speaker 8: parking ticket, right, even if that means you paying someone

3044
02:36:02,760 --> 02:36:04,800
Speaker 8: at giving someone fifty bucks for a parking ticket, so

3045
02:36:04,800 --> 02:36:06,800
Speaker 8: that it doesn't ruin the rest of their life.

3046
02:36:07,440 --> 02:36:11,240
Speaker 6: Whatever it is. The way that we.

3047
02:36:11,200 --> 02:36:14,480
Speaker 8: Prevent this is through strong communities. We have to start

3048
02:36:14,520 --> 02:36:16,400
Speaker 8: putting those now. I know we've said this a lot

3049
02:36:16,440 --> 02:36:17,879
Speaker 8: this week, but we're probably going to say a lot

3050
02:36:17,879 --> 02:36:20,440
Speaker 8: for the next three months. Like a lot of people

3051
02:36:20,440 --> 02:36:23,560
Speaker 8: have reached out to me since the Tramp election, which

3052
02:36:23,680 --> 02:36:26,920
Speaker 8: was two days but also like seven years ago, because

3053
02:36:26,920 --> 02:36:29,480
Speaker 8: that's how time works, saying that they want to participate

3054
02:36:29,480 --> 02:36:33,000
Speaker 8: in mutil aid at the border. I would love for

3055
02:36:33,040 --> 02:36:34,560
Speaker 8: you to come and join us, of course it would.

3056
02:36:34,640 --> 02:36:36,480
Speaker 8: And I think people have heard a lot about our

3057
02:36:36,560 --> 02:36:38,520
Speaker 8: mutual aid setup because of something I do a lot,

3058
02:36:38,600 --> 02:36:40,520
Speaker 8: but that I don't want you to come here and

3059
02:36:40,560 --> 02:36:42,440
Speaker 8: do mutual aid tourism, like I want you to come

3060
02:36:42,480 --> 02:36:44,680
Speaker 8: here and understand and learn what we do and then

3061
02:36:44,720 --> 02:36:48,520
Speaker 8: do it yourself, or just do it yourself, like there

3062
02:36:48,600 --> 02:36:51,080
Speaker 8: was a time when this didn't exist and people started

3063
02:36:51,080 --> 02:36:54,160
Speaker 8: it right, and you can start it to And I'm

3064
02:36:54,200 --> 02:36:57,000
Speaker 8: not going to tell you, like the specifics of what

3065
02:36:57,040 --> 02:36:58,360
Speaker 8: I think you should do, because I don't know. I

3066
02:36:58,400 --> 02:37:00,560
Speaker 8: don't know what the legal environment will be. I don't

3067
02:37:00,560 --> 02:37:02,480
Speaker 8: know what the legal environment will be in your state.

3068
02:37:03,200 --> 02:37:07,480
Speaker 8: But whatever the legal environment is, it will be better

3069
02:37:07,879 --> 02:37:11,040
Speaker 8: if we have strong and cohesive communities to look after

3070
02:37:11,080 --> 02:37:14,240
Speaker 8: one another. Right, If you're looking to donate your money,

3071
02:37:14,320 --> 02:37:18,080
Speaker 8: I've said it before, ALOTLAO where I would suggest it,

3072
02:37:18,080 --> 02:37:20,680
Speaker 8: it's a L O t R L A d O

3073
02:37:21,240 --> 02:37:25,080
Speaker 8: dot org. They've done really valuable work in defending migrants

3074
02:37:25,160 --> 02:37:28,119
Speaker 8: rights in court. Haitian Bridge Alliance would be another great

3075
02:37:28,160 --> 02:37:28,840
Speaker 8: example of that.

3076
02:37:29,080 --> 02:37:29,800
Speaker 1: Will you link that?

3077
02:37:30,360 --> 02:37:32,240
Speaker 4: I'll put them both in the show notes. Yeah.

3078
02:37:32,280 --> 02:37:34,280
Speaker 6: But the way we confront this is together.

3079
02:37:34,920 --> 02:37:38,280
Speaker 8: And it's super important that now in the next three

3080
02:37:38,320 --> 02:37:40,120
Speaker 8: months off there are and document people in your life

3081
02:37:40,120 --> 02:37:42,520
Speaker 8: so that you check in with them, that you talk

3082
02:37:42,600 --> 02:37:45,400
Speaker 8: with them about what the best plan is. We don't

3083
02:37:45,480 --> 02:37:48,039
Speaker 8: know what's going to happen. I've outlined some scenarios here.

3084
02:37:48,440 --> 02:37:51,320
Speaker 8: None of them may happen, right, we don't know yet,

3085
02:37:51,400 --> 02:37:54,240
Speaker 8: but we have these three months and we'd be foolish

3086
02:37:54,320 --> 02:37:54,920
Speaker 8: not to use them.

3087
02:37:55,240 --> 02:37:55,440
Speaker 4: Yep.

3088
02:37:55,680 --> 02:37:59,039
Speaker 8: Yeah, talk to your friends, begin organizing The solution is

3089
02:37:59,080 --> 02:38:01,640
Speaker 8: not to spare. Solution this community, and I know it

3090
02:38:01,640 --> 02:38:03,480
Speaker 8: can be really to spend. If you're listening and you

3091
02:38:03,520 --> 02:38:09,120
Speaker 8: are and documented, I understand how petrifying this is. And

3092
02:38:09,480 --> 02:38:11,560
Speaker 8: just know that, like we're all thinking of you and

3093
02:38:11,760 --> 02:38:14,080
Speaker 8: hopefully there are people in your life who are there

3094
02:38:14,120 --> 02:38:15,640
Speaker 8: to help you and to help you get through a

3095
02:38:15,680 --> 02:38:16,280
Speaker 8: difficult time.

3096
02:38:18,480 --> 02:38:21,680
Speaker 2: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3097
02:38:21,720 --> 02:38:23,640
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the Universe.

3098
02:38:24,040 --> 02:38:26,520
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3099
02:38:26,720 --> 02:38:29,800
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3100
02:38:29,840 --> 02:38:33,440
Speaker 1: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3101
02:38:33,520 --> 02:38:37,080
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

3102
02:38:37,120 --> 02:38:39,440
Speaker 1: now find sources for It Could Happen Here listened directly

3103
02:38:39,480 --> 02:38:41,760
Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.