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Speaker 1: If you're in a certain room with people that you know,

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Speaker 1: you're very comfortable with, there are sides of you that

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Speaker 1: you're going to be expressing versus not. We call it

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Speaker 1: reading the room, understanding your environment, understanding your audience, understanding

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Speaker 1: the timing of certain things. Saying everything and saying nothing

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Speaker 1: are not the only options. Instead of saying this on

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Speaker 1: social media, could I.

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Speaker 2: Tell a friend.

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Speaker 1: We believe that if something is happening socially or there's

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Speaker 1: a crisis, people need to take their stance online. Self

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Speaker 1: centering is actually when you rush to say something because

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Speaker 1: you want to keep the mob at bay. If you

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Speaker 1: repost this infographic, then we know you're a safe person,

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Speaker 1: so the mob doesn't attack you. So it's actually not

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Speaker 1: about whether someone believes what they're saying.

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Speaker 2: We are more interested in the performance of things.

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Speaker 3: The number one health and Wellness podcast Jay Shedy Jay

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Speaker 3: Sheddy Only.

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Speaker 4: Hey, everyone, welcome back to on Purpose, the place you

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Speaker 4: come to become. I'm happier, healthier, and more healed. I

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Speaker 4: am so grateful for today's conversation because I'm so excited

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Speaker 4: about it. As soon as I heard about this individual,

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Speaker 4: read her book and got involved in all of her

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Speaker 4: insights and all the great thoughts she had. I was

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Speaker 4: absolutely fixated. This content is what I believe is the

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Speaker 4: most needed right now. This book, I believe is the

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Speaker 4: most needed right now. This is the one to add

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Speaker 4: to your next book club, your next reading list. This

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Speaker 4: has to be your next pick. I genuinely mean it.

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Speaker 4: I was actually thinking about writing about this topic a

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Speaker 4: couple of years back, and I'd been having conversations about it.

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Speaker 4: It was literally probably the number one conversation I was

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Speaker 4: having with any friend, with any family member. And I

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Speaker 4: then came across her work and was blown away. She

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Speaker 4: had covered every theme practically, deeply, powerfully, boldly. I'm speaking

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Speaker 4: about Africa, Brook, and the book is called the Third

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Speaker 4: perspectivetive brave Expression in the Age of Intolerance. Go and

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Speaker 4: grab this book right now, and welcome to On Purpose Africa, Brook, Africa.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for being here.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Oh what an incredible introduction. Jay, Thank you.

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Speaker 4: I mean it like I really mean it. I feel

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Speaker 4: like the gamut of themes that you cover in this

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Speaker 4: book are what's so deeply needed for hearts and minds

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Speaker 4: in the world right now where we're living in an

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Speaker 4: age of intolerance, We're living in a society of divide.

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Speaker 4: We're scared of having uncomfortable conversations. We don't know how

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Speaker 4: to talk to someone who thinks differently from us, and

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Speaker 4: whether this is religiously politically, even if it comes down

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Speaker 4: to career wise, like I think, we have created a

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Speaker 4: world where we have silos and groups, and so I

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Speaker 4: want to start off. I want to dive into so

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Speaker 4: many things with you, and I'll let you kind of

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Speaker 4: share what you want to share before we dive in.

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Speaker 4: But if I had to start somewhere, my question, how

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Speaker 4: did we get here?

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Speaker 1: Even in writing this book, I had to lead with

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Speaker 1: that question because it's one of the first questions that

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Speaker 1: people ask me, and very specifically what we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about the psychology of what we call cancel culture,

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Speaker 1: which is important for me to actually name this very

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Speaker 1: early in our conversation.

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Speaker 2: And I invite.

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Speaker 1: People, just as I said those words, to be honest

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Speaker 1: about how that felt in your body. Because there are

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Speaker 1: people that believe councel culture is not real, it doesn't exist,

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Speaker 1: it's simply people being held to account. And then there

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Speaker 1: are some people that believe that it's a combination of

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Speaker 1: public shaming doxing, the inability to disagree well, self righteousness,

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Speaker 1: all of these other more shadowy things. But what I've

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Speaker 1: really got to discover for myself in this three and

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Speaker 1: a half years of writing this, But I would say.

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Speaker 2: The five years before it. It's not a new problem.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know if you've found this where sometimes

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Speaker 1: we think what we're experiencing in our timeline is something new.

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Speaker 1: I think it's just a modern manifestation of tribalism. I

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Speaker 1: think we've always had silos and echo chambers and divide

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Speaker 1: and polarization. It just looked very differently twenty years ago,

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Speaker 1: thirty years ago, fifty years ago. But I think just

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Speaker 1: because something has existed for centuries, I think just because

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Speaker 1: something might be primal the biology of wanting to belong

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Speaker 1: and what we're willing to do in order to belong,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that means we need to normalize it

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Speaker 1: not working. So I think there's a combination of things

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Speaker 1: that I'll just kind of put forward to answer your

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Speaker 1: question in a more direct way. It's not a new problem,

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Speaker 1: so I can't say this is exactly when it started.

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Speaker 2: It's ancient. It's tribalism.

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Speaker 1: We're just experiencing it in a very different way in

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Speaker 1: modern day society.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I know that's really well, But you're so right.

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Speaker 4: We always feel our problems are unique. Yeah, we do

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Speaker 4: that no one has felting before, and that what we're

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Speaker 4: experiencing is the most extreme version. Yes, yes, where does

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Speaker 4: that come from? Where's that feeling of? Like what I'm

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Speaker 4: going through has to be the worst, most, highest, Yeah, deepest.

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Speaker 1: The thing that you're pointing out that question allows for

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Speaker 1: me to actually have empathy for human beings and empathy

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Speaker 1: for myself in realizing that all I know is my story,

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Speaker 1: all I know is my experience. I am living in

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Speaker 1: my body and my mind. I have no idea what

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Speaker 1: anyone else is experiencing. So whether I feel grief or

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Speaker 1: pain or arousal joy, it's a very solitary experience. So

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Speaker 1: I think it's so easy to believe that we are

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Speaker 1: the only ones experiencing these things, even when someone says

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Speaker 1: I'm experiencing that too.

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Speaker 2: I experience fear.

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Speaker 1: I have a fear of being canceled, of being ostracized,

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Speaker 1: of whatever. We can only understand it intellectually, but we

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Speaker 1: never fully understand it in an embodied way. And something

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Speaker 1: that I would also say around this is that when

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Speaker 1: it comes to this thing that we call cancel culture,

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Speaker 1: I truly believe that it's underpinned by self censorship, which

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Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll speak about in more detail, but self

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Speaker 1: censorship is essentially when you feel that you're going to

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Speaker 1: be punished for expressing yourself honesty, whether it's even in

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Speaker 1: how you dress. Let's say you're from a culture that's

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Speaker 1: very conservative, but you've wanted to express yourself in a

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Speaker 1: way that is deemed inappropriate, in a way that is

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Speaker 1: deemed maybe men shouldn't wear this, women shouldn't wear this.

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Speaker 1: Whatever it is, you believe that you're going to be

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Speaker 1: punished for your expression. And I think the problem is

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Speaker 1: that with technology we see that level of fear just

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Speaker 1: in a very different way. So, again, these things have

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Speaker 1: always existed, but social media amplifies these things just in

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Speaker 1: a way that is very, very abnormal. I would say, actually,

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Speaker 1: that's one of the things that I really got to

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Speaker 1: see for myself even before this book, that social media

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Speaker 1: is making us behave and experience some of these things

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Speaker 1: in a way we just never would. It's making us

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Speaker 1: speak to each other in a way we never normally

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Speaker 1: would criticize in a way wouldn't put forward this idea

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Speaker 1: of moral perfection in a way we wouldn't. But it's

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Speaker 1: also making us self censor in a way we just

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Speaker 1: wouldn't in our everyday lives.

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Speaker 4: We even say things like, oh, I'd never say this online, yeah,

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Speaker 4: or I really can't say this on Instagram, but I'll

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Speaker 4: say it here, or this is the right room to

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Speaker 4: talk about this, and we say things like that all

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Speaker 4: the time. What is that line between self censorship? Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and then this idea of trying to be fully transparent

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Speaker 4: and authentic, like this idea that if you share everything

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Speaker 4: then you're authentic and if you hide something then with

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Speaker 4: self censorship different to both of those, Yes, because it's

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Speaker 4: not either all.

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Speaker 1: I write a line where I say, and I start

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Speaker 1: to use this as a matter of myself, saying everything

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Speaker 1: and saying nothing are not your only options. I think

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Speaker 1: that's very important. Self censorship is driven by fear. Again,

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Speaker 1: you believe, on some level, usually very unconscious, that you

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Speaker 1: are going to be punished if you express what is true.

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Speaker 1: If I am honest with you right now, you are

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Speaker 1: going to ostracize me, You're going to abandon me. You're

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Speaker 1: going to reject me. But now we're not just doing

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Speaker 1: it to an individual level. You're doing it with strangers,

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Speaker 1: faceless nameless people. You're afraid that they're going to cast

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Speaker 1: you out of the tribe. Right, So it taps into

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Speaker 1: a very primal fear, which is so normal. It's just

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Speaker 1: being expressed in a way that.

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Speaker 2: Is not normal at all.

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Speaker 1: Right, So self censorship is driven by fear, whereas I

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Speaker 1: think the other side of that is I call it

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Speaker 1: social filtering. It's something that we do all the time.

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Speaker 1: You and I, if we're meeting for the first time,

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Speaker 1: there might be things that you just won't say, or

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Speaker 1: jokes that you just won't make because we don't know

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Speaker 1: each other well.

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Speaker 2: Enough just yet.

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Speaker 1: If you're in a certain room with people that you know,

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Speaker 1: you're very comfortable with, there are sides of you that

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Speaker 1: you're going to be expressing versus not.

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Speaker 2: That's reading the room. We call it reading the room.

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Speaker 1: Understanding your environment, understanding your audience, understanding the time of

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Speaker 1: certain things.

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Speaker 2: That is discernment led. It's not led by fear.

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Speaker 1: So I never want people to think that any of

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Speaker 1: not even just my work. But this conversation is about

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Speaker 1: saying everything, because again, saying everything and saying nothing are

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Speaker 1: not the only options. There is this beautiful gray where

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Speaker 1: you get to say, actually, instead of saying this on

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Speaker 1: social media, could I tell a friend instead of thinking

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Speaker 1: that I have to prove my goodness on social media,

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Speaker 1: which is a huge thing where we believe that if

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Speaker 1: something is happening socially or there's a crisis, people need

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Speaker 1: to take their stance online. But can I not take

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Speaker 1: my stance or really think about what I feel offline? Right?

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Speaker 1: So it's discernment led because another side of self centering

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Speaker 1: is actually when you rush to say something because you

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Speaker 1: want to keep the mob at bay, which we see

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Speaker 1: absolutely all the time this idea, and I think there's

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Speaker 1: something quite religious about it. I always think of the

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Speaker 1: story of I believe it's the Passover in the Bible

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Speaker 1: where people have to put is it blood outside of

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Speaker 1: the door so that the angel of Death doesn't take

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Speaker 1: their firstborn son or something along those lines. I sort

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Speaker 1: of see what people are demanding for people to do

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Speaker 1: on social media in the same way that if you

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Speaker 1: repost this infographic, then we know you're a safe person,

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Speaker 1: so the mob doesn't attack you. So it's actually not

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Speaker 1: about whether someone believes what they're saying. We are more

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Speaker 1: interested in the performance of things. But again, if you're

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Speaker 1: using discernment, you get to say, I know, I feel

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Speaker 1: very scared right now, and people are demanding that I

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Speaker 1: speak up, but I'm not going to do that because

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Speaker 1: that's out of integrity.

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Speaker 2: But maybe I can.

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Speaker 1: Have a bit of a curiosity around why people need

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Speaker 1: me to be educated on this and do it offline,

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Speaker 1: have a conversation online, whereas self censorship is either not

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Speaker 1: saying anything or pretending to be on board with what

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Speaker 1: people want you to say. So I want people to

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Speaker 1: remember it really simply, self censorhi is driven by fear,

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Speaker 1: whereas if you're social filtering, you're using discernment. Even if

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Speaker 1: you're a little bit afraid, you're still grounded in integrity

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Speaker 1: on some level.

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Speaker 4: I love how deeply you've thought about this, because you know,

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Speaker 4: being able to categorize, simplify, and dissect all of that

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Speaker 4: requires a lot of structure and systems. Because the mind

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Speaker 4: has always found it easier to just make it binary, right,

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Speaker 4: It's always been easier, and if you look at the

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Speaker 4: structure of society, it kind of goes that way. You

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Speaker 4: have coke, you have pepsi, then maybe you have RC

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Speaker 4: Cola or whatever else like, but it's two choices.

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Speaker 3: There's like two big places.

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Speaker 4: You have McDonald's and Burger King, you have Dominos and

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Speaker 4: Pizza Hut, and yes there's another one, but generally life

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Speaker 4: has become divided by there's only two teams. Like everyone's

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Speaker 4: gonna hate me for saying this, but in London, Arsenal

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Speaker 4: and Spurs like.

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Speaker 3: The bigger teams, and then you've got west Ham.

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Speaker 4: And Fulham and all the rest of it. No offense,

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Speaker 4: but you get the point. And I'm a United supporter,

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Speaker 4: but sports, food brands like everything you look at, and

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Speaker 4: then of course politics, religion, this way, that way, whatever.

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Speaker 4: It's just all binary and so we haven't really looked

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Speaker 4: at life as a spectrum. We haven't looked at life

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Speaker 4: as actually there's all of this gray. Actually there's all

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Speaker 4: of this middle ground. As you just said, there's a

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Speaker 4: difference between authenticity, social filtering, censorship, self censorship. There's all

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Speaker 4: these differences and there are different grades, and the mind

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Speaker 4: can just go, oh, that's too much work.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to do.

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Speaker 1: That absolutely, and you know what, I think, this is

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Speaker 1: where I come back to because I really don't want

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Speaker 1: to have this conversation from a place of kind of

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Speaker 1: being holier than thou, thinking that.

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Speaker 2: People just need to speak up.

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Speaker 1: People just need to stop being afraid of cancel culture,

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Speaker 1: People just need to say what's on their minds, because

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Speaker 1: I think it really disregards the biology of all of this.

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Speaker 1: And when we talk about things being so binary again,

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Speaker 1: it's not just all of a sudden we're so binary.

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Speaker 1: We're built in that way because our brains were built

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Speaker 1: for simplicity. Because now when you see the extreme of

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Speaker 1: that other side of binary is the paradox of choice,

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Speaker 1: where when you have too many options, there's overwhelm. And

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Speaker 1: you kind of see this in dating. You see this

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Speaker 1: even with brands and clothing. There's way too much that

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Speaker 1: it actually causes stress for a lot of people without

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Speaker 1: even realizing that they It leads you to indecision if

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Speaker 1: you have too many decisions to make, And you see

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Speaker 1: this with the political system. I think that's the most

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Speaker 1: obvious one, right, regardless of where you are, even though

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Speaker 1: they say you have all of these other options, it's

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Speaker 1: mainly two, right, whatever the two might be that are

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Speaker 1: propped up.

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Speaker 2: But I think we need.

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Speaker 1: To, and I know that in my work and a

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Speaker 1: lot of what I speak about, it can be very

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Speaker 1: inspiring and motivating and it can really amp you up.

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Speaker 1: You're ready to undo self censorship. But I'm also asking you,

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Speaker 1: and what we're talking about, Jay, we're asking people to

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Speaker 1: consider doing things that are very unknown because to consider

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Speaker 1: that third space and that nuance, it is not the

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Speaker 1: default for humans. So we're asking people to kind of

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Speaker 1: look at what your existing defaults are, where you want

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Speaker 1: to have good or bad pro or anti woke or

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Speaker 1: anti woke to kind of simplify the whole thing, right,

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Speaker 1: But the most beautiful thing you can do for yourself

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Speaker 1: is to be in that discomfort of being like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: is there a third way? Is there a third option?

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Speaker 1: That's where the third perspective comes from. It's a line

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Speaker 1: that I wrote in my journal in twenty twenty, actually,

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Speaker 1: when I was so entrenched in my own binary thinking

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Speaker 1: and I had no idea, and I was writing something,

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Speaker 1: and I wrote the line third perspective that I'm looking

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Speaker 1: for a third perspective because I was in like an

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Speaker 1: internal desperation. I made myself sick with self censorship, and

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Speaker 1: I really considered myself at the time and even now,

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Speaker 1: to be an outspoken person, to be someone that is

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Speaker 1: confident in their thoughts, in their mind, someone who is

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Speaker 1: open my mind, transparent, et cetera. But my actions were

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Speaker 1: showing me that I was prioritizing popularity. I was afraid

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Speaker 1: of what the mob would do to me if I

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Speaker 1: said I don't agree with that, or I've changed my mind,

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Speaker 1: or even I don't agree with that anymore. I did

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Speaker 1: at a point in time, but I'm not that person,

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Speaker 1: or I understand what the so called other side thinks.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't mean I accept it, but I understand it.

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Speaker 1: But I didn't think I was allowed to even say that.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's the thing that most people and

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Speaker 1: maybe even yourself have experienced and are experiencing in real time,

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Speaker 1: where we don't think we're allowed to change our minds,

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Speaker 1: and ultimately that's what we're talking about here. A third

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Speaker 1: perspective means that you have to let go of a

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Speaker 1: version of you that people might be used to right,

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Speaker 1: and that's very uncomfortable because it's easier to be the

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Speaker 1: Jay and the Africa that people love and adore, and

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Speaker 1: people feel like there's a certainty to your thoughts, and

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Speaker 1: there's a certainty to what you will say and what

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Speaker 1: you will do, and how you will behave and whether

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Speaker 1: they can place you. And so when you do something

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Speaker 1: or even ask a question that kind of deviates from that,

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Speaker 1: it's really frightening because again the binary mind, people need

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Speaker 1: to make sense of you. No, Jay usually does this,

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Speaker 1: but now he's doing this or he's.

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Speaker 2: Not doing that.

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Speaker 1: So I think, again, my work, I always like to

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Speaker 1: ground it in an understanding of the reality of being

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Speaker 1: a human being. We're wired for binary, whether we like

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Speaker 1: it or not. Even me, I still have my immediate reactions.

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Speaker 1: But my job and a very exciting challenge that I

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Speaker 1: have is to notice and then try and go into

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Speaker 1: that third perspective, to be like, oh, okay, we have

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Speaker 1: our defaults, but is there something that we're not seeing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, right, you.

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Speaker 4: Said something like when you look to yourself and you

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Speaker 4: realize that you too wanted the binary.

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Speaker 3: I think every one.

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Speaker 4: Of us if we looked at ourselves, I agree with

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Speaker 4: me too, I think we'd find we do always slot

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Speaker 4: into there are only two options, all the time, all

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Speaker 4: the time, and so you constantly have to ask yourself,

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Speaker 4: what's the third perspective? This isn't something that like one

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Speaker 4: day you get to a point and from then you

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Speaker 4: always see three perspectives.

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Speaker 3: Because you're so wired on a human level.

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Speaker 4: So I see that in myself that in any conversation,

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Speaker 4: I can so switch into the righteous mind, binary options,

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Speaker 4: cancel culture, feeling, making big judgments about people over small

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Speaker 4: points of information, and these are all lacking the third perspective.

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Speaker 4: And so if I don't have this habit or this

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Speaker 4: practice every single day, if I'm not developing it every

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Speaker 4: single day and constantly pushing myself, it's not that one

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Speaker 4: day I just get to a point where I'm now

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Speaker 4: the all knowing.

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Speaker 2: And all see yeah, all of this.

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Speaker 1: And the subtitle is brave Expression in the Age of intolerance.

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Speaker 1: I never want people to think that brave expression or

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Speaker 1: courage is some kind of point of arrival. And then

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Speaker 1: you get there and then you have Jay in Africa

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Speaker 1: on the other side with a certificate to give you

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Speaker 1: to say well done.

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Speaker 2: That just isn't how it works.

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Speaker 1: And for me, I think that's so exciting to know

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Speaker 1: that in every single moment, every single interaction, especially your

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Speaker 1: micro interactions, you get to practice being braver. Because something

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Speaker 1: I discovered is that I got to a point maybe

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Speaker 1: because I've been working at this for a while and

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Speaker 1: understanding all of this stuff intellectually putting it into practice,

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Speaker 1: but mainly in my work and my career and conversations

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Speaker 1: that I have in the public. But I realized that

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Speaker 1: my biggest work to do with brave expression and not

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Speaker 1: self centering was in romantic relationships.

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Speaker 2: Because again, I had.

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Speaker 1: Got to a point of feeling so confident and comfortable

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Speaker 1: that if we're talking about societal things or whatever, it

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Speaker 1: might be, okay, I can hold my own I cannot

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Speaker 1: self censer, But in romantic relationships, all of that would unravel.

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Speaker 1: I would feel uncomfortable saying my needs. I would get

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Speaker 1: very defensive immediately in conflict, because all of this is

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Speaker 1: about conflict avoidance. Are you willing to walk into conflict

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Speaker 1: and to be with it in a healthy way or

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Speaker 1: do you avoid it and put up your defenses and

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Speaker 1: self righteousness. So I was very humbled myself to realize that,

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Speaker 1: even to this day, that my romantic relationships is where

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Speaker 1: I have to look out for my own self censorship

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Speaker 1: the most. So there's no arrival.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, No, Well, the thing that I love that you

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Speaker 4: said there is that you said, we're trying to avoid conflict. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: And actually I think we're trying to avoid conflict even

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Speaker 4: within ourselves, and that's what we don't want to ask

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Speaker 4: the question, right, Like I know, and I've been thinking

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Speaker 4: about this a lot lately because I can kind of

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Speaker 4: get into a lot of dismantling identity. And what I

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Speaker 4: mean by that is what most of us do subconsciously

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Speaker 4: is we've reaffirmed the identity we've built for ourselves. So

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Speaker 4: if we built an identity as a certain person, a

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Speaker 4: certain career, a certain ethnic background, whatever it may be,

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Speaker 4: we've reaffirmed that by who we spend time with, what

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Speaker 4: we read, what we eat, where we hang out.

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Speaker 3: And I kind of do.

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Speaker 4: A lot of the opposite, where I'm like constantly questioning thoughts, beliefs,

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Speaker 4: and values and whether they serve me and whether they're accurate.

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Speaker 4: And I feel like I've gone quite deep that sometimes

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Speaker 4: I can get to a point of like I don't

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Speaker 4: even know who I am anymore, and that can be

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Speaker 4: very uncomfortable, And so I understand why people don't want

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Speaker 4: to go there, because it can be so dismantling where

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Speaker 4: it's almost like, imagine you had a piece of furniture

401
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Speaker 4: and you took out all the screws and pieces and

402
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Speaker 4: you just placed it down, and you're starting again to go,

403
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Speaker 4: what else can I build from this? And you don't

404
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Speaker 4: have the manual and you don't have the IA guide

405
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Speaker 4: and all the rest of it. Again, looking at them

406
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Speaker 4: as extreme options, one option is I keep reaffirming who

407
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Speaker 4: I am. The other option is I dismantle myself so

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Speaker 4: deeply that I don't have a clue who I am right,

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Speaker 4: And it's like, well, again, how do we exist in

410
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Speaker 4: this space of well, I should know how to question

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Speaker 4: parts of my values, upbringing qualities, character without dismantling myself,

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Speaker 4: but also not continuing to just become who I am

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Speaker 4: already walking on the path to become.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's so good.

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Speaker 1: That's so good because it makes me think about another

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Speaker 1: thing that I remember writing down. And there were a

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Speaker 1: couple of these things. First one was around you can

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Speaker 1: be understanding without accepting right because I think and this

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Speaker 1: ties in so perfectly with everything that you're saying. But

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Speaker 1: even if I look at it from a society or perspective,

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Speaker 1: sometimes we're afraid to kind of truly honest someone's wildview

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Speaker 1: because we think if I understand you, that means I'm

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Speaker 1: accepting your wildview. But even a layer deeper than that,

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Speaker 1: if I understand you, other people will think I'm accepting. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that seems to be I think one of the biggest

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Speaker 1: things that I find to be the kind of point

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Speaker 1: of conflict that we all have that if I show

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Speaker 1: empathy for someone from the other side, people will think

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Speaker 1: I'm one of them. So we're dehumanizing each other. But

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Speaker 1: in doing that, we're dehumanizing ourselves. And I don't think

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Speaker 1: we even realize that, because that means someone else might

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Speaker 1: be thinking that a few because whether we like it

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Speaker 1: or not, we're all one. How we are with each

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Speaker 1: other is how people will be with you. So when

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Speaker 1: I think about what you're talking about in terms of

436
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Speaker 1: constructing identity, it brings up this the second thing that

437
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Speaker 1: I was exploring for myself, which is can I still

438
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 1: have my convictions and be open minded?

439
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:27,360
Speaker 4: Right?

440
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 1: Can I still have my convictions about my identity but

441
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 1: be open to changing it again? Because that is the

442
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: third perspective. It's not about one or the other. You

443
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 1: don't have to be over attached to your identity or

444
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,119
Speaker 1: to completely reject your identity.

445
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 2: You get to play with all of the components.

446
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 4: I like that idea of having your convictions and still

447
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,360
Speaker 4: being curious. Yes, because because that feels And I love

448
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 4: that point you made going back a couple where you

449
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 4: made about understanding someone doesn't mean accepting them, and if

450
00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 4: you're seen to understand someone, it doesn't mean you're accepting.

451
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:02,360
Speaker 3: Them by others.

452
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 4: Why is it important or how do we encourage people

453
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,159
Speaker 4: to recognize Because I think we get so locked in

454
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 4: our belief systems that I'm right, that person is so wrong,

455
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 4: and we don't even give them the opportunity. And I

456
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 4: think that's where the fear comes from for so many people,

457
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 4: is I won't even be given the opportunity to be understood.

458
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,679
Speaker 4: I mean, even taking your romantic example, is there a

459
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,919
Speaker 4: part of you that has a fear? Because I like

460
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 4: looking at it. I always say to people's like the

461
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 4: micro experiences are literally just blown up on the macro experiences.

462
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,959
Speaker 4: It's not that different like we think it is, like, oh,

463
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 4: I'm different in love and I'm different, But like you

464
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 4: just said, it was like, no, self censorship is something

465
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 4: I can do in love or I can do it online,

466
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 4: and it's the same feeling and may be a different

467
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 4: fear and maybe, but there's a fear that I come

468
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 4: across and that I see in people I talk to,

469
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,439
Speaker 4: which is I feel like I won't be given an

470
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 4: opportunity to be understood and I'll be judged immediately. So

471
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 4: even if I try to share something in a very logical, rational, thoughtful, conscious,

472
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 4: deeply honest way about whatever belief it is, whether it's

473
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 4: one on one, whether it's one to many online, I

474
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 4: feel like people are going to judge it immediately for

475
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,120
Speaker 4: whether it's sincere, genuine or not. And I know people

476
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 4: who are listening and watching have probably written posts and edited, edited,

477
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 4: edited every word, edited every word, and then deleted it

478
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 4: or got a text together to send to that person

479
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 4: and written down all your emotions and feelings and then gone, no,

480
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 4: they're just going to think I'm being too needy. No,

481
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 4: they're just going to think I'm being too this, deleted

482
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 4: it or sent it and then felt, oh gosh, they're

483
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 4: going to think I'm needy. They get a message back game,

484
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 4: You're being too needy. People don't make us feel we

485
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 4: have the time to explain ourselves. People don't make us

486
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 4: feel that we have the space for them to understand us,

487
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 4: and people may us feel that no matter what we say,

488
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 4: they've already made their judgment. So then we just be quiet,

489
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 4: or we hide, or we never express how we feel

490
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 4: because it's safer and it's easier. Two questions, what is

491
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 4: lost in that for us? Yeah, when we just hide?

492
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,959
Speaker 4: And second question, how do we change that? Like, how

493
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 4: do we get to a point where we can start

494
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 4: understanding each other and not accepting each other?

495
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 1: I really want to thank you for allowing yourself to

496
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: express that thought out loud, because to me, these conversations

497
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 1: is jay, especially the conversation you and I are having now.

498
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 1: I wish you knew and I'm getting goosebumps. How many

499
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 1: people are scared to talk about this like it's a

500
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 1: and the fears are not unfounded at all. We only

501
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: just have to look online, offline have conversations with people.

502
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: When you speak to people in a very honest way

503
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 1: like this, you see the relief being like, oh my god,

504
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 1: people are willing to talk about like there's there's a

505
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: very real fear, And the fact that you and I

506
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 1: can sit here and have this conversation is such a

507
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 1: It's such a beautiful thing because I know how many

508
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 1: people are so terrified, And as you were speaking, I

509
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: could feel just like a almost sadness but also joy

510
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 1: in my in my chest because you're saying words that

511
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 1: I think about all the time and that people share

512
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,919
Speaker 1: with me, thousands of people all the time. And the

513
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 1: word grace comes to mind. And I'm going to also

514
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: explore a thought in real time with you and.

515
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 2: Just cowards, which is what we do.

516
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: I think this all comes back to whether we like

517
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 1: it or not, to this self. If you have an

518
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: inability to show yourself grace for your own contradictions, I

519
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 1: promise you you will never be able to do it

520
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: for someone else. We respond in that way to other people,

521
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 1: expect other people to be reactionary, expect other people to

522
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 1: match our worldview, scan for malicious intent in what people

523
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 1: are saying. Why because we already do it to ourselves.

524
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 1: Someone who shows themselves grace is able to honor other

525
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 1: people's contradiction without thinking they have to become or that

526
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: other people might be seeing. It's like self surveillance, which

527
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: then becomes surveiling everyone in everything. I think that's what

528
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,959
Speaker 1: it is, the inability to be graceful with ourselves.

529
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you're spot on.

530
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 4: I that resonates so strongly and anyone who's watching, but

531
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 4: if you're listening, I literally side like they were so

532
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 4: relieving to hear that, because I think that's kind of

533
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 4: you know, it's a journey I've been on, and a

534
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 4: journey that I've mentioned, and I said this to you earlier.

535
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 4: This theme of yours has come up in podcasts in

536
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 4: miniature moments, and today I was excited because we're diving

537
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 4: right into just this. I think for me, what's been

538
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,479
Speaker 4: really interesting is that I've lived so many paradoxical lives,

539
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 4: and it took me forever to give myself grace to

540
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 4: live as a paradox. It took me forever. I was

541
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 4: self critical, I was harsh on myself.

542
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: I was.

543
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 3: Disconnected for myself.

544
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 4: There was a sense of ridiculing myself, pointing fingers at myself,

545
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 4: like there was a lot of that for many years,

546
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 4: and I started to realize how much more layered complex

547
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 4: and there was a third version of me. And so

548
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,719
Speaker 4: you know, when I lived as a monk, it was

549
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 4: one of the best experiences of my life and I

550
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 4: would never change it. I would do it again, and

551
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 4: it was so special and if you would have asked me,

552
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 4: then I thought I was going to do that for

553
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 4: the rest of my life. And at one point when

554
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 4: I had to admit to myself then not only could

555
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 4: I not do that for the rest of my life,

556
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 4: but that it wasn't my path. That was the first

557
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 4: time I felt I really had to sit with giving

558
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 4: grace to myself because in my eyes, i'd failed. In

559
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 4: my eyes, I had let people down. In my eyes,

560
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 4: people would judge me for having failed, and I felt,

561
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 4: if I leave this, everyone's going to think I've completely

562
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 4: messed up and that I'm a failure and that I'm

563
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 4: really weak.

564
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 3: In my eyes.

565
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 4: And by the way, there were like ten people who

566
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,719
Speaker 4: knew I was, so it wasn't It wasn't about a

567
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 4: scale thing. It was just a feeling of not only

568
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 4: am I letting myself down, Everyone's going to be let

569
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 4: down by my actions. And I think everyone can relate

570
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 4: to that, whether it's you had a breakup and you

571
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 4: thought you were going to marry that person and all

572
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 4: of a sudden you're thinking, gosh, everyone thought I was

573
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 4: going to marry that person too, and now they left me.

574
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 4: Maybe you've had that same experience because you had a

575
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,479
Speaker 4: job and that job was going really well, and then

576
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,959
Speaker 4: you lost your job, and all of a sudden, you're thinking, well,

577
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 4: everyone thinks I'm a failure because I got made redundant

578
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 4: or I got fired or whatever it is. Maybe you've

579
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 4: had that experience because you had a dream that you

580
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 4: told everyone you were going to chase and then it

581
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 4: didn't work out. And now so we've all had that

582
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 4: experience of feeling canceled by ourselves and others. In that moment,

583
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 4: I remember having to go deep and give myself permission

584
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 4: to say no, I can evolve, I can rebecome, and

585
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 4: I can keep the parts of that experience that were true,

586
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 4: but I can also let go of the parts of

587
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 4: the experience that are no longer and that doesn't take

588
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 4: away from that experience. Then I had to do it

589
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 4: again when I started. Then I worked in the corporate

590
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,239
Speaker 4: world and started to become a creator after that, and

591
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 4: it was the same thing. Then it was like, okay,

592
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 4: now I'm actually going to share. And I remember the

593
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 4: start people being like, well, you're promoting yourself, Like this

594
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 4: isn't aligned with humility, and this isn't aligned with being

595
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 4: a grounded individual.

596
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 3: How could you make a video.

597
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: Because the binary, right, you were this and by virtually

598
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: of you being a monk, and this even if you've

599
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: never said to people anything about your desires or the

600
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: way you want to live, just by identity, you having

601
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: that identity and that label attached to you means people

602
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: can assign anything they want onto it, and you have

603
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:03,719
Speaker 1: to perform and to be that forever.

604
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And some of that is my own doing, and

605
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 4: I did responsibility for that, Like some of that is

606
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 4: definitely something I've created for myself.

607
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 3: So it's not that.

608
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 4: I'm free of all responsibility and that I can only

609
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 4: point the fingers outwards and stop being me. And because

610
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 4: there is a sense of like, well, no, that's a

611
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 4: part of my identity, I decided to share with you.

612
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 4: And that was a choice that I made before we

613
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 4: dive into the next moment. Let's hear from our sponsors

614
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 4: and back to our episode. The reason why I was

615
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,959
Speaker 4: walking through that thought experiment is because this is the

616
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,719
Speaker 4: conversation and I think, again, the binary is it's all

617
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 4: your fault, you're all picking on me, I'm just doing

618
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 4: a good job. Or the binary is I've really messed

619
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 4: up and you're all right, yeah. And the third perspective is, well, actually,

620
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 4: there's some things I need to take accountability and responsibility for,

621
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 4: but I hope you do too, because we no one's

622
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 4: going to get far in a world where we don't

623
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 4: give ourselves and others grace. But I think we think

624
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 4: we hold ourselves to such a high standard that we

625
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 4: then project that high standard onto others. And I think

626
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 4: it's been said for years. I don't know who said it,

627
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 4: but the famous phrase of we judge other people by

628
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 4: their actions, not their intentions, and we judge ourselves by

629
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 4: our intentions not our actions.

630
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 1: That's exactly it. And it speaks to the projection of

631
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: moral perfection and the reason social media plays a role

632
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: in this. And I want people to know that when

633
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: I talk about social media, I'm not kind of bringing

634
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: it back to that cliche conclusion where I think social

635
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: media is the problem. I speak at it just from

636
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 1: a very different point of view, to highlight that these

637
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: things that are already primal within us, that have already

638
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: existed within us, just get a different stage because of

639
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: social media. And I think it's something to be curious about.

640
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 1: But I find that because of that kind of shame,

641
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: we feel because we know we're not morally perfect, because

642
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: we know that behind closed doors there are things that

643
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: we agree with that other people would look down on

644
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: us for, or the person that we used to be

645
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: that maybe we've been able to cover them up quite

646
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: well and no one else knows, but there's the shame

647
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: that can still lie beneath. Whereas on social media we

648
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: get to create this morally perfect person who posts all

649
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: of the right infographics, all of the right links, all

650
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: of the right things. They always have the right opinion.

651
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: They're somewhat offer twenty four hour news cycle as well,

652
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: so when something is happening, they're up to date on everything,

653
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: they're educated right all of this, but a lot of

654
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: the time it's in direct contradiction to who we actually are.

655
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: But we're so wedded to that morally perfect avatar that

656
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: we expect other people to also have one of their own.

657
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: So if someone shows a side of them that is

658
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: a little bit unsavory or a little bit inappropriate, or

659
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: someone who doesn't agree with something and is willing to

660
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 1: say it, I think we experience this kind of cognitive

661
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: dissonance because a mirror has been held up. I find

662
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 1: that sometimes it's almost like a how dare you say

663
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: what is on your mind? When I can't a lot

664
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,879
Speaker 1: of the time. It's kind of this frustration that we have,

665
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 1: how dare you be free? When I am in a

666
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: cage that I have constructed for myself. It's not the

667
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: story for everyone, but I promise you it's the common

668
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: story if you were to look just a little bit

669
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 1: deeper to say, why do why do I feel these

670
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: reactions so strongly when someone doesn't match my worldview? What

671
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: feels so threatening? And sometimes it's someone's freedom of expression

672
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: that feels threatening. And I think that's a good starting

673
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: point to be honest about.

674
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 4: Literally, Like again, I'm having just so many great thoughts,

675
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 4: and I'm glad that we're figuring this out. And I

676
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,439
Speaker 4: know you've had a lot more hours in this place

677
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 4: and years, but hearing you say that, it sounds like

678
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 4: there is a dual responsibility, because there's a responsibility for

679
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 4: us to be able to not censor ourselves, to be

680
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 4: able to express ourselves, to be able to realize there's

681
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 4: more options. But so much of that rests on not

682
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 4: feeling like someone's going to ostracize and judge us absolute

683
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 4: And I wonder, how do we start within ourselves, as

684
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 4: you said, that's really where it starts. You said a

685
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 4: few moments ago that because people don't give themselves grace

686
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 4: for their own contradictions, they can't have grace for other

687
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 4: people's contradictions. What is the process of giving ourselves grace

688
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 4: for our contradictions? Because I think almost sometimes we don't

689
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 4: even see them, like I think sometimes we're just so

690
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 4: self unaware. And it's so funny. I consider myself to

691
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 4: be quite a self aware personally. Just two weeks ago,

692
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 4: I was sitting there and someone gave me some honest

693
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 4: piece of feedback and I sat with it for the

694
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:02,399
Speaker 4: rest of the day, and I was like, I am

695
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 4: so self unaware, Like I'm so self unaware, and I

696
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 4: thought about this weekend, I again got some good feedback

697
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 4: from someone, and I was thinking, yeah, like, I don't

698
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 4: even see how me acting that way could be perceived

699
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 4: that way, but it is. And whether that's my intention

700
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 4: or that's how it's perceived, yes, but I'm so self unaware.

701
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,399
Speaker 4: I'm just I'm not conscious of that. And so even

702
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 4: as someone who considers themselves very self aware, I would

703
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 4: consider myself to be not that aware. And so I

704
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 4: think a lot of us are so self unaware where

705
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 4: we don't even know we have a contradiction. We're like, no,

706
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 4: I've always signed up for the same thing, I've always

707
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 4: voted the same I've always felt.

708
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 3: The same No, no, no, this is who I am.

709
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 4: So wait a minute, like you just did something else

710
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 4: last week to your partner or whatever it maybe, Yeah,

711
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,720
Speaker 4: So where do we start when we have no space

712
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 4: for grace for our contradictions because we don't even know

713
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 4: what they are.

714
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 1: I love that question so much, and I organized this book,

715
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: but it's actually not even really about the I had

716
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: to organize a lot of my own thoughts from my

717
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: own journals and a lot of my work with clients

718
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,280
Speaker 1: because I'm a developmental coach and a researcher and I'm

719
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: trained in union psychology. So my fascination Jay is really

720
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: understanding the shadow of humanity, which is essentially what we're

721
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: talking about in that if you are willing to integrate

722
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 1: and understand your shadow, you will experience a more fulfilling life.

723
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 1: You will find yourself being in more integrity. So I

724
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 1: organize the book in three parts, awareness, responsibility, and expression,

725
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: and I see this as the journey of going from conforming,

726
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: whether it's conforming to ideals and expectations of your past self,

727
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: to a place of actual, brave expression and courage. A

728
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 1: lot of people want to rush to expression. What do

729
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 1: I say, what do I do? Give me this strategy Africa?

730
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:53,720
Speaker 1: Or I've been canceled?

731
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 2: What do I say?

732
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,280
Speaker 1: It's kind of no. We have to start at awareness.

733
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 1: What are you afraid of? If I express the truth?

734
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 1: I believe that I will be punished. I believe that

735
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 1: I'll be abandoned, rejected, whatever it might be. I truly

736
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: believe that everyone has to start there. Be honest about

737
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: what you're afraid of. When Jay tells me an opinion

738
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: that I don't agree with, and I'm very defensive and reactionary,

739
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 1: and I want to take him down, I'm afraid of something.

740
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:21,359
Speaker 2: What am I afraid of? Right?

741
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: Is it because his worldview feels like a threat to

742
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: my sense of self?

743
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 2: Is it?

744
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,879
Speaker 1: Just be very honest. And then the second part where

745
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 1: you're talking about contradiction falls into the responsibility aspect, where

746
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 1: I ask the question what do you stand for? And

747
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 1: I always use another sort of mantra that I wrote,

748
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 1: which says, when you don't know what you stand for,

749
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 1: you will always be at the mercy of the external world.

750
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 1: And that's really important. I'll say that again. When you

751
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: don't know what you stand for, you will always be

752
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 1: at the mercy of the external world. So if you

753
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: come across someone who's more intimidating, someone you believe has

754
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 1: more status, more power, someone who maybe you believe is

755
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: better than you in some way, or a mob or

756
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: someone who says you need to speak up in this

757
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: exact way or use your platform, whatever it is, you

758
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 1: will always be at the mercy of everything else. You

759
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 1: will never consult yourself. You will always consult other people

760
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 1: before you consult you. And to actually know what you

761
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: stand for, you need to know what your values are,

762
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 1: which I think is what we're talking about. And I

763
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 1: think a really good place to spot your contradictions is

764
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: to say, okay, what do I value. People will usually

765
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 1: say things like I value honesty, integrity, transparency, kindness, And

766
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: it feels so good to say this is what I value.

767
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 2: It feels amazing.

768
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,760
Speaker 1: But then I like to go a step deeper to say,

769
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 1: the results you see in your life right now, right now,

770
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: in real time, in this moment in time, they will

771
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 1: actually show you what it is you actually value the

772
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,800
Speaker 1: state of your relationships, the state of your bank account,

773
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,800
Speaker 1: the state of your how you behave online, whatever it

774
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 1: might be that will show you what you actually value.

775
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,399
Speaker 1: So is that still congruent the values that you said?

776
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 1: And in the book I call it we have our

777
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: embodied values, which is how we actually live, and then

778
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 1: we have our desired values.

779
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 2: Who we think we are.

780
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 1: I think I'm someone that value is open mindedness. But

781
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: I promise you in twenty twenty, I was shown that

782
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,720
Speaker 1: I didn't value open mindedness as much as I thought,

783
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 1: which is when I started writing this book. I was

784
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: shown that even though I was open minded in some

785
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 1: areas and I was courageous and I was very fearful

786
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: in others, I had moments where I chose popularity over truth.

787
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 2: And that is just the reality of it.

788
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 1: So my results at that time and my nervous system

789
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 1: at that time was showing me the truth of what

790
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 1: I valued. So I think, and there's an exercise in here,

791
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: many of them, but I think that's a good place

792
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 1: to be able to see where contradict actually is. What

793
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: would you say you value versus what the results in

794
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 1: your life are actually showing you. I value health, I

795
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:09,919
Speaker 1: value this. What do you watch most of the time?

796
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 1: What do you listen to? I value maybe ambition and

797
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 1: being consistent. Okay, the results in your life do they

798
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 1: show you that you value that? Or do you value

799
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 1: other things? So I think that's a good kind of

800
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,800
Speaker 1: objective way to be truthful.

801
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 4: I agree, you know, I agree. I think that's a

802
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 4: great reflection exercise. And I love how simple it is,

803
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 4: how structured it is. And I really hope everyone takes

804
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 4: time to do this. I mean, I think when I

805
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 4: hear these things, I recognize how the biggest challenge with

806
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 4: all of this is time. Yeah, because it all takes

807
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 4: time to really sit there and look at what is

808
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 4: the third perspective? Takes time to ask yourself what are

809
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:51,399
Speaker 4: my embodied values.

810
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 3: And what are my desired values? And what's the difference.

811
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 4: It takes time, does and I find that everyone is

812
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 4: so time poor today, and that's why we're living in

813
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 4: this society we are leaving in. I think we think

814
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 4: we're time books.

815
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I promise you we will watch Lover Is

816
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:12,359
Speaker 2: Blind and talk about it the whole series of day.

817
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, it's true.

818
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,479
Speaker 4: And I mean I was looking at studies recently because

819
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 4: I was talking about how couples. There's a wonderful team

820
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 4: member of mine who named one of my presentations. Her

821
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 4: name's Annie, and it's called it's called I miss you

822
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 4: when You're next to me. It's something she says to

823
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 4: her husband, and it's this idea of how we miss

824
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 4: people when we're next to them because we're not really

825
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 4: with them because we're watching TV or whatever it may be.

826
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:39,439
Speaker 4: And I looked into all of these studies which talked

827
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 4: about just how much television again not television, how much

828
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 4: we're watching streaming platforms. Yeah, every night with our partners,

829
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 4: but we think we don't have enough time with them.

830
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 4: And so it's your your spot on. You know, there

831
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:54,800
Speaker 4: is a lot of we have time. It's just that

832
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 4: we either two exhausted, the two overworked. We're overwhelmed, we're

833
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 4: stressed that it becomes the only escape. Yes, to let

834
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 4: us feel like we're decompressing and letting go. But that's

835
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 4: the time that we'd have to invest in. Yeah, let

836
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:10,879
Speaker 4: me ask God. The third perspective is let me figure

837
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,359
Speaker 4: out my values, let me do all these other things.

838
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 4: And I think it becomes interesting because you're right, it's

839
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 4: not time that's the challenge. It's space and energy and

840
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 4: priority and priority.

841
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'll bring in that thread of empathy and

842
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: compassion again, is that the world that we live in

843
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: is so overwhelming. The average person is, I promise you,

844
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: just trying to get by. That's the reality of it.

845
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: The average person is just trying to figure out how

846
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 1: do I keep the four walls up and how do

847
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: I find some level of escapism where I don't have

848
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 1: to think about how much I'm working and how much

849
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 1: everything costs and blah blah blah. There's a reality to

850
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: all of it. And I never dismissed that I am

851
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 1: not someone that thinks we all need to be on

852
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: this relentless quest for self improvement and what I I

853
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 1: just don't believe that. And at the same time, I

854
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: think maybe I can offer a little bit of relief

855
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: to say we don't have to do everything all at once.

856
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: I really don't think we need to do everything all

857
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: at once. I don't think that we have to look

858
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 1: at ourselves as some kind of project that needs fixing,

859
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 1: to be on a mission to undo self. It's just

860
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: it's not realistic. But I think what is realistic is

861
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,919
Speaker 1: to look at some pain point in your life right now,

862
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: because there is one, and then to get curious about it,

863
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 1: even just a little bit. I think it's the bare minimum,

864
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: That's what I will say. I think it's absolutely the

865
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: bare minimum. If most of us can notice that there's

866
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 1: a problem where we're starting to feel, even in our

867
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: most intimate relationships, that there's sort of this walking on

868
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 1: eggshells feel and we can't quite name it. And where

869
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 1: there was a time on social media where you were

870
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: quite excited to just post about your day and your

871
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 1: dog and maybe your child or whatever. Now people are

872
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 1: terrified to even share something that is non controversial. And

873
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 1: the thing that you brought up earlier. I work with

874
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 1: a lot of entrepreneurs and people that are visible, and

875
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 1: they talk about kind of putting two hundred caveats on

876
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: everything and disclaimers and just again, because we want to

877
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: keep the mob at bay. It might might not be

878
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 1: an actual mob, it could be perceived, it could be real,

879
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: but there's a fear. There's a fear that is so palpable,

880
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: and we need to talk about it. We need to

881
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: be honest about it. So I don't think we need

882
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,359
Speaker 1: to do everything all at once. But I think it's

883
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 1: just about being honest about areas in which you're finding

884
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 1: yourself repressing, not even just your speech, but your thoughts.

885
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,399
Speaker 1: Because I think the most dangerous thing is when you

886
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: center yourself in your mind before you even anyone else

887
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 1: does it for you, you've done the job yourself. I

888
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 1: think that's a very dangerous place to be in. And

889
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 1: I call it in my book the mob in your mind,

890
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:50,399
Speaker 1: because I think once you befriend the mob in your

891
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 1: mind and you to just see that it's a it's

892
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 1: just a bunch of toddlers trying to think, how do

893
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 1: we keep you safe? What do we have to do?

894
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 1: But you're you can see the shadows, so they look

895
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: like giant you know, but actually just befriend them and

896
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 1: understand them and see what are they trying to protect

897
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,359
Speaker 1: you from? But we don't have to do everything all

898
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: at once, you know, And I think that should allow

899
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 1: for people to address that part that's like, Okay, this

900
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 1: is great, but like where do I even begin?

901
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 3: Yeah you know, yeah for sure.

902
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 4: Yeah it's a really interesting thing you just said about

903
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 4: the shadow and the size of the target. Yeah, yeah,

904
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 4: it makes me remember, like I know a lot of

905
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,760
Speaker 4: us would feel that the one percent is so loud,

906
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,320
Speaker 4: and so the one percent of people that are trolling

907
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 4: negative and even that word, it would be good to

908
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 4: discuss that word, same as cancel culture. But I feel

909
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 4: like that language around like the comment section, as we

910
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 4: all know on YouTube, Instagram, wherever you are TikTok, Twitter,

911
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 4: like it's almost like it's so loud, so you could

912
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 4: have and I always look at this paradox again where

913
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 4: it's like you could have a million likes on a

914
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:03,320
Speaker 4: post and one hundred thousand shit and ten thousand negative comments,

915
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 4: but because the comments are qualitative in some regard, your

916
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:12,760
Speaker 4: energy goes straight there. If you let social media teach

917
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 4: you about the world, it will have you believing that

918
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 4: everyone in the world is irrational, crazy, and just not

919
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 4: a good person. That's only the one percent because they're loud.

920
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 4: But that's not everyone. I meet more reasonable people on

921
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 4: a daily basis that I don't know than unreasonable people,

922
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 4: and I'm hoping most people would say that. Maybe not,

923
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 4: but at least our belief system is, oh my gosh,

924
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,280
Speaker 4: everyone in the world is absolutely against me. The mob,

925
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 4: in my mind, is really loud. So how do we

926
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 4: reconcile that kind of proportionality and ratio of our belief

927
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 4: system because we give more weight and value to the

928
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 4: mob than we do to humanity. Because doesn't make sense.

929
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 1: It does, it makes toastal sense. And it's again it

930
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 1: brings me back to where we sort of started with

931
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 1: this around the underpinning biology of so many of the

932
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 1: things that we're speaking about. Whether we like it or not,

933
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 1: we do, as human beings have a negativity bias, and

934
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 1: it's for survival, you need to look out for danger.

935
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: But again, now it just manifests in a different way.

936
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: But also that just speaks to the kind of personal

937
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 1: understanding and personal responsibility, if you will, aspect of things

938
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: and being like, Okay, I have a negativity bias, so

939
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 1: it's my job to either seek out positive things or

940
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 1: to notice when I'm being more drawn to it. But

941
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:40,439
Speaker 1: I think, especially in a post pandemic world where our

942
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,879
Speaker 1: offline lives and our online lives are pretty much one

943
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 1: and the same, our algorithms play into the fact that

944
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 1: we have a negativity bias. So that is all that's

945
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 1: going to be propelled. I mean, you see it everywhere

946
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 1: the news as well. The news picks out specific stories

947
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: that happ into that negativity bias because it keeps us watching.

948
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 1: So I think there's kind of like a need to

949
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 1: understand our primal inclination, but to also understand how big

950
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 1: media works. So I think it's a little bit of

951
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 1: the two, because I don't think it's as simple as

952
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:21,399
Speaker 1: just reducing all of this to personal responsibility. I think

953
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 1: that's a part of it, but it's not the full picture.

954
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 1: It's why I really love the work of people like

955
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 1: Jonathan Height, It's why I love people like Johann Hari

956
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 1: because they are I feel like they do a very

957
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 1: good job at addressing those sort of two components the

958
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 1: primal biological aspect of things, but being like, actually, we

959
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 1: also need to be very honest about the platforms that

960
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: are taking a lot of our time and tapping into

961
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 1: those biological things. So I think for me, it's a

962
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 1: little bit of that just awareness. It's like what you

963
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: were saying before, knowing that if you have this sort

964
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 1: of thing within you where you think your self aware enough,

965
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 1: always know this a little bit further, you can go.

966
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 4: Yeah. I find that to be the block that at

967
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 4: least I find it, and I'd love to telling what

968
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 4: people think I find it to be the block. And

969
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 4: we mentioned this when we were just hanging out earlier.

970
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 4: So when Africa walked in, me and her were talking

971
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 4: about what kind of experience we like when we do

972
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 4: interviews and we meet new people and we go on

973
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 4: podcasts and things. And I was talking about the kind

974
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 4: of experience I like to create for guests and what

975
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 4: kind of mood I like to set and why I

976
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 4: do things the way I do. And when I was

977
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 4: doing that, I felt a creeping in feeling of ego

978
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 4: and pride and I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, I

979
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 4: know exactly what I'm doing, and there was that inside

980
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 4: of me, and then my ego less mind started to

981
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 4: get involved in the conversation and third perspective, I was like,

982
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 4: wait a minute, this is the exact reason we're having

983
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 4: this conversation with Africa is to get rid of the

984
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 4: righteous mind, like this belief system that one.

985
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 3: Is better or worse.

986
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,320
Speaker 4: But we really get into the space really in a

987
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 4: nuanced and through all my Monk training, I got really

988
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:06,240
Speaker 4: good at knowing even the tiniest moments when the ego

989
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 4: was kind of coming to the forefront, because that was

990
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 4: such a big part of the training we had, and

991
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 4: even then it's so hard to calm down and connect

992
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 4: with the ego and you know, create harmony with it.

993
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 4: But I find that the biggest challenge is the people

994
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 4: that do say what they feel and do express boldly

995
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 4: believe that they are fully right. And those of us

996
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 4: that stay quiet, we also believe that we're fully right.

997
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 4: So there's this belief of like, oh, if you're joining

998
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 4: cancel culture and I'm not, then I'm right. I'm actually

999
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:43,839
Speaker 4: doing the right thing, and the person who's diving into

1000
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 4: cancel culture is going, of course, I'm doing the right thing.

1001
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 4: So the belief is, how can we even try to

1002
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 4: understand someone because we already think what we're doing is right.

1003
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 4: If what I think I'm doing is right from the

1004
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 4: get go, I have no need or space to understand

1005
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:03,799
Speaker 4: you because you're already wrong. And so that to me

1006
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 4: is the at the root of why there's no space

1007
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 4: to understand, why there's no space to reflect, why there's

1008
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 4: no space to listen to you, because I already feel

1009
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 4: I'm better in a really subconscious way, whether I'm not

1010
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 4: talking or whether I'm talking.

1011
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 1: There's no like beautifully neat answer to any of this,

1012
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,320
Speaker 1: which I think is also one of the best parts

1013
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:31,800
Speaker 1: of it, because it's an ever evolving conversation. But I

1014
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: think bringing it to that sort of beautiful landing of

1015
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 1: finding opportunities where you can notice your righteous mind coming

1016
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 1: into play, that moment where we want to exercise superiority,

1017
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 1: and I tend to find again if I bring the

1018
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: element of online, because again, this is where most of

1019
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: this is happening. If you're just walking down the street

1020
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 1: and you're not meeting people that are just shouting at you.

1021
00:52:57,239 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 1: When you walk down the street, people are saying use

1022
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 1: your platform. They're not saying that to me either, But

1023
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:04,799
Speaker 1: when you go online, it just feels like a very

1024
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 1: different world because we've created a very very different world,

1025
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: a world which needs more values like grace and true

1026
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 1: understanding and being knowing what can be open minded and

1027
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,320
Speaker 1: still have our convictions and to not hold them so tightly.

1028
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,400
Speaker 1: But I think it is about looking for where you

1029
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 1: are exercising superiority. And I think some of us and

1030
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 1: I had to do this, need to be very honest

1031
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 1: about the fact that when you feel so out of

1032
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: control in your life in other areas, you are more

1033
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 1: likely to try and gain control when you're online. I

1034
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 1: think that's a very big one. People that feel so

1035
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:48,439
Speaker 1: powerless elsewhere, but now they're in this place where people

1036
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 1: don't have the context of your life. People don't know

1037
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,839
Speaker 1: the insecurities that you have, people don't know what you've

1038
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:57,280
Speaker 1: done in the past. You get to curate the image

1039
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 1: of who you are. And again we'll lead with moral

1040
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 1: perfect because a lot of the time we want to

1041
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 1: make up for things that we don't think we actually have.

1042
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 1: But I think it's that self inquiry is so it's

1043
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 1: really uncomfortable. It can even be a little bit excruciating,

1044
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 1: but it's so liberating because you free yourself from this

1045
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 1: sort of It's not even enough to just call it intolerant,

1046
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:25,759
Speaker 1: because it's not that. I think it's a version of

1047
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 1: you that is so deeply unfulfilled and needs to maintain

1048
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 1: control and power, and has so much fear around being

1049
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 1: rejected and abandoned. So you feel that you need to

1050
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 1: overcompensate with a lot of these things. But I think

1051
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 1: it comes back to the righteous mind. You have to

1052
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:46,800
Speaker 1: be able to spot your need to exercise superiority.

1053
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:48,759
Speaker 3: It's such an interesting thing. I was.

1054
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:52,359
Speaker 4: You made me remember a experience I had back at

1055
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,360
Speaker 4: school when I used to be part of my It's gonna.

1056
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 3: Sound super geeky, but yeah, I was part of my

1057
00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:57,399
Speaker 3: debate team.

1058
00:54:57,560 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 2: Yeah that's cool and oh that's good.

1059
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 4: And I really enjoyed it because it was such a

1060
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 4: great learning experience. So I remember one presentation. I was

1061
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 4: probably like, I don't know, fourteen years old or something

1062
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 4: like that, like a young teenager and maybe fifteen, and

1063
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 4: we had this debate set up.

1064
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 3: I can't remember the motion, and.

1065
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:23,440
Speaker 4: I made a point that completely destroyed the other person's

1066
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 4: argument and the whole all my friends and everyone in

1067
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 4: the audience went crazy, and I was just like, oh,

1068
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 4: you showed him, like you know, it was like this big,

1069
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 4: like kind of moment. I was feeling myself and thinking

1070
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 4: I was amazing. And I talked to my teacher afterwards,

1071
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:41,319
Speaker 4: who asked to see me after the presentation and I'd

1072
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 4: won the debate yeah, And he said to me, he goes, Jay,

1073
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,879
Speaker 4: did you win the debate today? And I was like yeah,

1074
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:51,840
Speaker 4: like you know, he said to me, how did it

1075
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 4: go for you today? I was like, well, we won,

1076
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 4: like it was great, and he was like, no, you

1077
00:55:56,719 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 4: didn't win, And I was like, what do you mean? Like,

1078
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 4: didn't you just see everyone and applaud and like, go,

1079
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,120
Speaker 4: you know, crow crazy? And he said no, he said

1080
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:06,720
Speaker 4: you won the crowd, but you lost the debate.

1081
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,280
Speaker 3: And I was like, what do you mean.

1082
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 4: And he said, well, he said, a good debate is

1083
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 4: where you have a deep understanding of the other person's

1084
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 4: space and place and insight. It's not that what you're

1085
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:28,360
Speaker 4: saying proves them wrong. It's that you understand their argument

1086
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:32,399
Speaker 4: so deeply that you're able to dismantle it on its own.

1087
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 4: It's not about yours being better. It's about you actually

1088
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:38,719
Speaker 4: being to understand it so deeply that you're able to.

1089
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:41,399
Speaker 3: Show that parts of it don't add up.

1090
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 4: And it was a really nuanced, profound point for me,

1091
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:48,399
Speaker 4: because I just thought, if you win the crowd, then

1092
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 4: of course you win. And I think that's what the

1093
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 4: society we live in today, where it's like, if someone

1094
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 4: wins over the crowd, even if they're completely wrong, we're

1095
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 4: okay with it, right, even if someone acts completely and

1096
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 4: more or we don't even know the truth, we don't

1097
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 4: know what happened behind closed doors if they win the crowd,

1098
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 4: Like if someone wins it on social media and they're

1099
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 4: in a legal case or whatever it is, and on

1100
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 4: social media all goes well, even if we have no

1101
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 4: idea what that person's moral character is, we we're with them,

1102
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 4: and you see this on shows, you see this everywhere.

1103
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 3: And again I'm not saying we should judge them.

1104
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 4: I'm just saying we all believe if you win the crowd,

1105
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 4: you want, and so we've lost the ability to actually say, well, no,

1106
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:30,960
Speaker 4: do I deeply understand Can I actually get context of this?

1107
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 1: Yes? That just landed so so strongly for me. Thank

1108
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 1: you for sharing that anecdote on the debate because it's

1109
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 1: actually right about this and speak about it a lot

1110
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 1: because it's a big part of my story in my experience.

1111
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 2: But a lot of what you're.

1112
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 1: Saying directly parallels what I experienced in twenty twenty. As

1113
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 1: I've said at many points throughout this conversation and kind

1114
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 1: of reference to that point in time didn't get very specific.

1115
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:05,280
Speaker 1: Twenty twenty is when there was a big conversation around

1116
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 1: race relations after the killing of George Floyd in the US,

1117
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 1: and it ignited really important conversations that have transformed the

1118
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 1: way we speak about race, the way we interact with

1119
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 1: each other, the way we have started to just notice

1120
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:25,840
Speaker 1: our conscious and unconscious biases. But I, again at that time,

1121
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 1: had already been doing the work that I do and

1122
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:32,280
Speaker 1: understanding self sabotage, self censorship, how do we have brave conversations,

1123
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 1: et cetera. But this is all identity right even as

1124
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:38,480
Speaker 1: I'm saying it right now, it's I had been studying,

1125
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 1: I've been learning, I've been whatever.

1126
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 2: But there were aspects of what.

1127
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: I was doing and grounded in that was just from

1128
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:48,680
Speaker 1: the neck up but hadn't been actually embodied. And I

1129
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 1: got to learn that in twenty twenty because I was

1130
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 1: one of the people for a very short time but

1131
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 1: a very intense time, demanding that people speak up about

1132
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 1: what was happening in the state. And again I use

1133
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:04,400
Speaker 1: that language very specific because I'm not taking in the

1134
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:07,479
Speaker 1: context of where people are in the world. What if

1135
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: Africa someone doesn't have any idea of what has actually happened.

1136
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 1: What if it's someone from India or Kenya or Zimbabwe

1137
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:19,360
Speaker 1: or and I'm expecting them to speak up. Speaking up

1138
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 1: meaning you have to do it online. It has to

1139
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 1: be a performance. You have to post something that is

1140
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 1: going to make me feel like, Okay, you've done this.

1141
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 2: The right way. So it's all ego, because who.

1142
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 1: Am I as a individual person in West London in

1143
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 1: my house expecting the world. When you actually look at

1144
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 1: and speak about these things in this way, you realized

1145
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 1: just how it's not only self righteous, but entitlement is

1146
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 1: a part of it as well. Right, That's why I

1147
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 1: am entitled to your opinion. And there's just so there

1148
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 1: was just so much a play for me that was

1149
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 1: really humbling. So I was one of the people specifically

1150
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 1: on the Tuesday where people were being told to post

1151
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 1: a black square. I think most people listening to this

1152
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:08,560
Speaker 1: will understand and it was so out of character, but

1153
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 1: I think I have to even do a self correction

1154
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:14,080
Speaker 1: in real time say, actually know, it was a demonstration

1155
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:17,160
Speaker 1: of what my character actually was. I thought that it

1156
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 1: would be out of character for me to do something

1157
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 1: like that, but it was in character in a way.

1158
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 1: But I was pretty much just demanding that people speak

1159
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:28,120
Speaker 1: up about race and the way that I wanted them to.

1160
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 1: And you could look at it and say, yeah, you

1161
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:32,520
Speaker 1: were inviting people to do something that was right and

1162
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:35,800
Speaker 1: very important, but I was doing it in an extremely

1163
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 1: intolerant way, in a way that was pretty much not

1164
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:42,000
Speaker 1: giving people an option to speak up in a different way.

1165
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:45,200
Speaker 1: There was no sort of third perspective, There was no nuance,

1166
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:49,360
Speaker 1: There was no consideration of maybe Africa people are speaking offline.

1167
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:51,880
Speaker 1: And I have a feeling so many people listening to

1168
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 1: this will remember that time and maybe the way they

1169
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 1: participated or what they experienced, because I've had so many

1170
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:02,720
Speaker 1: in life conversations in the past four years about that

1171
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 1: time period, and I was applauded Jay so loudly for

1172
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:10,760
Speaker 1: it because I was essentially shaming those that were not

1173
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:13,480
Speaker 1: speaking up, those that were not saying anything. And again,

1174
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 1: I would have never expected myself to behave in this way,

1175
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:19,360
Speaker 1: but guess what I did. And when I looked into

1176
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 1: it a little bit deeper over time, I realized that

1177
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:26,880
Speaker 1: I was speaking in that way because I was afraid

1178
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 1: of what people would say to me if I didn't

1179
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 1: say anything.

1180
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:34,360
Speaker 2: So it was almost like a performance.

1181
01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:37,440
Speaker 1: Again, that idea of keeping the mob at bay, so

1182
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:40,640
Speaker 1: behaving in a way that you think will appease them,

1183
01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:43,880
Speaker 1: but then behaving in that way got me applauded. So

1184
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:47,840
Speaker 1: the thing about the crowd instantly, Also, because of the

1185
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 1: time period, everyone is pretty much online, we're on lockdown,

1186
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 1: in most parts of the world, so the digital space

1187
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 1: was just a very different place to be, and things

1188
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:59,280
Speaker 1: would sort of just spread like wildfire. So all of

1189
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 1: a sudden, I'm having thousands and thousands of people applauding

1190
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:06,960
Speaker 1: me and cheering me on, telling me that I'm doing

1191
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:08,840
Speaker 1: the right thing. And then I have this man who

1192
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 1: sends me a message. He sends me a DM and

1193
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 1: he says, Africa, I've been following your work for a while.

1194
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:16,480
Speaker 1: I really respect what you do when you've helped me

1195
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:18,720
Speaker 1: a lot, But I just wanted to ask you, do

1196
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 1: you think that this is the right way to bring

1197
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:26,680
Speaker 1: people together? Because again, I'm saying that I want unity,

1198
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,760
Speaker 1: I'm saying that I want open conversations. I'm saying that

1199
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:35,960
Speaker 1: I want tolerance, but my actions are in complete contradiction.

1200
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 1: So someone that had a bit of an understanding of

1201
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:41,600
Speaker 1: who I am and what I supposedly stand for is saying, hey,

1202
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:44,560
Speaker 1: do you think that this is the approach to take?

1203
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:49,920
Speaker 1: Instead of responding to him and even sitting with it

1204
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:52,439
Speaker 1: for a while to kind of be curious about where

1205
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:55,920
Speaker 1: he was coming from, I immediately shamed him, and I

1206
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:59,080
Speaker 1: did it publicly. It wasn't extreme in any way, but

1207
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:01,600
Speaker 1: I screenshot the DM that he had sent me and

1208
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 1: I posted it onto my main feed on Instagram. I

1209
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 1: guess it was sort of a thing of trying to

1210
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 1: supposedly share someone else's intolerance, which I was perceiving as

1211
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 1: you're being intolerant to my express again my self, right,

1212
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:20,480
Speaker 1: my opinion masses, you know. And I would also have

1213
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 1: to be very honest with myself about the fact that

1214
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:27,000
Speaker 1: I believed that as a black woman, even though he

1215
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:29,640
Speaker 1: was a mixed race man, that I had more of

1216
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 1: a right to behave and to speak in this way

1217
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:35,040
Speaker 1: than he did. So this is where the sort of

1218
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 1: identity hierarchy things come in. Where I used a very

1219
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 1: important part of my identity to shut down conversation, which

1220
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:47,760
Speaker 1: is also something we need to be very honest, happened

1221
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:51,440
Speaker 1: so much where I had the inability to actually engage

1222
01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:54,720
Speaker 1: critically and to feel what I call the initial out

1223
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:57,320
Speaker 1: of being like, oh, that doesn't feel so good. But

1224
01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:00,160
Speaker 1: let me be curious about this and just stay let

1225
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:03,800
Speaker 1: me humanize this person and realize that it took a

1226
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:07,040
Speaker 1: lot for him to say to even open with I

1227
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 1: love what you do. You've done a lot for me,

1228
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:13,160
Speaker 1: and to pose a just a really important question. Actually

1229
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:16,320
Speaker 1: there was none of that. I made it all about

1230
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:20,520
Speaker 1: me and used my identity to shut down the conversation

1231
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:23,440
Speaker 1: because I didn't have a response for it.

1232
01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 2: So I posted this.

1233
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:31,000
Speaker 1: Thing and again immediately started getting even more applause. And

1234
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:34,480
Speaker 1: I remember the feeling that I got it was it

1235
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:38,520
Speaker 1: was sort of it was a very teared feeling. There

1236
01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 1: was kind of like an excitement, like an exhilaration, because

1237
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 1: again it's the crowd. Think of that moment where people

1238
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:46,840
Speaker 1: you've just said something and it's like you've just shut

1239
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:50,080
Speaker 1: everything down. You're being seen by your peers in a

1240
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:52,680
Speaker 1: different way. You've just won the debate, right, It's that

1241
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:55,919
Speaker 1: feeling of winning. What it does to you somatically, it's

1242
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 1: like a It's like an arousal of senses. It's so

1243
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:03,880
Speaker 1: you see how if you don't even pause just for

1244
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:08,000
Speaker 1: a moment, you will want to experience that forever. Yes,

1245
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 1: you will do whatever it takes to experience that. And

1246
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:14,120
Speaker 1: that's what I had for a moment, that kind of

1247
01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:17,800
Speaker 1: exhilaration of being like oh okay.

1248
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 2: And then about twenty.

1249
01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 1: Minutes to half an hour later, I started feeling sick,

1250
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:27,600
Speaker 1: like actually sick. That feeling sort of moved from being

1251
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:30,120
Speaker 1: like an excitement, which usually happens in the chest and

1252
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:31,920
Speaker 1: you can sort of feel it in your upper body,

1253
01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:34,480
Speaker 1: to kind of just dropping down to the pit of

1254
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:38,720
Speaker 1: my stomach. Why, Because it was a huge integrity breach.

1255
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 1: I was experiencing this applause and whatever, but the means,

1256
01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:47,480
Speaker 1: the path that I had to take to get it

1257
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:50,640
Speaker 1: was not an integrity And I'm so grateful that I

1258
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 1: experienced that, because for some people, they will never pay

1259
01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:55,440
Speaker 1: attention to the integrity breach.

1260
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:56,920
Speaker 2: Most people won't even.

1261
01:05:56,760 --> 01:06:00,000
Speaker 1: Really feel it because that sort of sense of power,

1262
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:02,880
Speaker 1: and honestly, power could just be ten likes when you've

1263
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 1: never received ten likes before. It could be anything. It's

1264
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:08,320
Speaker 1: not about scale. It's just about what it makes you feel.

1265
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 1: You're getting a level of recognition and applause that you

1266
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:16,600
Speaker 1: just haven't had before, you know. And I remember feeling

1267
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:21,400
Speaker 1: just looking at what I'd shared, looking at that message

1268
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:27,560
Speaker 1: again and just feeling quite literally sick. And I deleted

1269
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 1: it and I didn't post anything maybe for a couple

1270
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:35,560
Speaker 1: of days, and I sent a message to that man

1271
01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:39,360
Speaker 1: and I apologized. I apologized to him for it, and

1272
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:41,720
Speaker 1: he was like, oh, that's no big deal. But that's

1273
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:44,960
Speaker 1: when my own unraveling started. That's when I started journaling,

1274
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:47,960
Speaker 1: and that's when that idea of the third perspective came through,

1275
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 1: because I experienced a level of cognitive dissonance I haven't

1276
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:55,760
Speaker 1: experienced only at the time I've experienced. That is when

1277
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:59,240
Speaker 1: I finally realized, after seven relapses that I had to

1278
01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:02,440
Speaker 1: get sober, and nothing new had sort of happened. It

1279
01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:06,360
Speaker 1: was just like a big sort of you dissociate and

1280
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:10,520
Speaker 1: you see yourself and you have a decision you need

1281
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:13,880
Speaker 1: to make. And that's what I had in twenty twenty,

1282
01:07:14,520 --> 01:07:18,760
Speaker 1: and that's what moved me from looking at self sabotage

1283
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:24,440
Speaker 1: from like an interpersonal lens to trying to understand it

1284
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:27,960
Speaker 1: on a societal lens, because what I had experienced there

1285
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:31,080
Speaker 1: is what we kind of call cancel culture, but I

1286
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:33,680
Speaker 1: prefer to call it collective sabotage. So I coined the

1287
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:38,720
Speaker 1: term collective sabotage because I think it's less politicized and

1288
01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:41,320
Speaker 1: I think it's a more accurate definition of what this

1289
01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:43,960
Speaker 1: actually is. We think we're doing the right thing, but

1290
01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:47,240
Speaker 1: we have no idea what we're doing. We're saying we

1291
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:51,120
Speaker 1: want tolerance, but we're leading with intolerance. We're saying we

1292
01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:56,040
Speaker 1: want progressiveness, but we're being extremely regressive, you know, in

1293
01:07:56,080 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 1: our approaches. And I got to see that in my

1294
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:02,320
Speaker 1: and I could have taken the path of doubling down,

1295
01:08:02,640 --> 01:08:04,040
Speaker 1: which is what you tend to see a lot of

1296
01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:07,320
Speaker 1: the time, where people get applauded for a certain thing

1297
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:10,320
Speaker 1: and then that just becomes and they become sort of

1298
01:08:10,320 --> 01:08:13,760
Speaker 1: like a caricature of themselves. That was not what I

1299
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:16,519
Speaker 1: needed to do. I needed to go to the path

1300
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:20,640
Speaker 1: of being like, what theck have I just done, you know,

1301
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:24,240
Speaker 1: and owning up to that publicly. And that's the process

1302
01:08:24,280 --> 01:08:28,120
Speaker 1: that I started to actually share that experience publicly and

1303
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:31,240
Speaker 1: every other thing that I'd experienced that was in line

1304
01:08:31,400 --> 01:08:31,680
Speaker 1: with that.

1305
01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:33,400
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for sharing that.

1306
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:38,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, so powerful to kind of dive into such a

1307
01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:42,200
Speaker 4: specific moment in time, Yes, that kind of embodies and

1308
01:08:42,280 --> 01:08:45,719
Speaker 4: encapsulates this whole message, and to see it play out

1309
01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:47,559
Speaker 4: like that, and for you to have that level of

1310
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:51,639
Speaker 4: intricure self awareness, which is what it takes to kind

1311
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:56,120
Speaker 4: of question and reflect and pick apart and dissect your

1312
01:08:56,120 --> 01:08:58,240
Speaker 4: own self and how you've done that.

1313
01:08:58,240 --> 01:08:59,240
Speaker 3: That takes so much.

1314
01:08:59,120 --> 01:09:02,600
Speaker 4: Courage and vulnerability and even the way you shared it.

1315
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:06,000
Speaker 4: I'm sitting there listening to you, going, that's what it takes.

1316
01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:07,719
Speaker 3: That's what it takes. That's what it takes.

1317
01:09:08,040 --> 01:09:10,960
Speaker 4: Before we dive into the next moment, let's hear from

1318
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:15,880
Speaker 4: our sponsors and back to our episode. It shocks me

1319
01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:20,160
Speaker 4: still to this day that we think that blame and

1320
01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:25,760
Speaker 4: shame and guilt are good ways of changing people ourselves

1321
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:31,719
Speaker 4: including Yeah, it's like shame, guilt and blame are rarely

1322
01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:37,799
Speaker 4: good techniques or approaches to creating change within ourselves or others.

1323
01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:41,080
Speaker 4: When was the last time you changed your partner because

1324
01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:43,760
Speaker 4: you blame them for something? When was the last time

1325
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:46,639
Speaker 4: you got through to your child because you shamed them

1326
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:50,080
Speaker 4: for something? When was the last time you made yourself

1327
01:09:50,400 --> 01:09:52,960
Speaker 4: eat better, work out more, or live better because you

1328
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:55,920
Speaker 4: guilted yourself into it? Maybe you did for a couple

1329
01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:56,479
Speaker 4: of days.

1330
01:09:56,800 --> 01:10:00,000
Speaker 2: It's not sustainable, sustainable completely. You're so right.

1331
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:03,800
Speaker 1: They're just such ineffective strategies. I was speaking to my

1332
01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:06,840
Speaker 1: siblings about this the other day and we were talking

1333
01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:10,439
Speaker 1: about we were speaking with a group of friends actually,

1334
01:10:10,760 --> 01:10:13,880
Speaker 1: and we're all African, we're all African in this setting,

1335
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:17,360
Speaker 1: and we were laughing about being hit as children because

1336
01:10:17,439 --> 01:10:20,840
Speaker 1: it was just the normal, exactly exactly.

1337
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:21,880
Speaker 2: You kind of laugh about it.

1338
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:25,040
Speaker 1: Everyone got beats, everyone whatever, and we were saying, but

1339
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:29,760
Speaker 1: it didn't work, and it didn't even really work for

1340
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:33,120
Speaker 1: our parents either. But it's like, we do this thing

1341
01:10:33,240 --> 01:10:38,879
Speaker 1: because it's always been done, and because you become afraid,

1342
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:41,599
Speaker 1: it looks like it works, which reminds me of kind

1343
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:44,280
Speaker 1: of pretty much what we're talking about. Because someone is

1344
01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:47,519
Speaker 1: afraid and they apologize from that place of fear, we

1345
01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:49,920
Speaker 1: believe that it's worked. We don't actually care to know

1346
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 1: whether they've actually embodied that apology. Are they truly taking accountability,

1347
01:10:55,040 --> 01:10:57,800
Speaker 1: do they even think they need to take accountability for it?

1348
01:10:58,479 --> 01:11:01,320
Speaker 2: Or is it to keep that entire and external mob

1349
01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:02,320
Speaker 2: at bay? You know?

1350
01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:08,439
Speaker 1: But I think, even though it sounds very idealistic, I

1351
01:11:08,439 --> 01:11:11,479
Speaker 1: think grace is truly the antidote of so much of this.

1352
01:11:12,080 --> 01:11:15,679
Speaker 1: But I don't think it's about immediately grace for others.

1353
01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:19,080
Speaker 1: It's grace with the self, and grace with the self

1354
01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:21,720
Speaker 1: is projected onto others, whether we like it or not.

1355
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:25,360
Speaker 1: Because another thing that I wrote in my journals was

1356
01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:27,880
Speaker 1: a question to myself around that time, in twenty twenty

1357
01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:31,439
Speaker 1: and I was saying, can you truly be fulfilled in

1358
01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:34,000
Speaker 1: life and still participate in councel culture?

1359
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:35,520
Speaker 3: Wow?

1360
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:41,440
Speaker 1: Can you truly be fulfilled in life and still participate

1361
01:11:41,560 --> 01:11:46,520
Speaker 1: in cancel culture? Because if we're having this conversation of binary,

1362
01:11:47,280 --> 01:11:50,240
Speaker 1: I realized that maybe an answer could be, yeah, you

1363
01:11:50,240 --> 01:11:52,720
Speaker 1: can still be fulfilled and maybe dip in and out

1364
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:53,519
Speaker 1: of But I.

1365
01:11:53,439 --> 01:11:55,639
Speaker 2: Don't I for this. I don't believe it's possible.

1366
01:11:56,080 --> 01:11:59,559
Speaker 1: I don't believe that you can truly be whole within yourself,

1367
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:02,840
Speaker 1: because to be whole is to accept your shadow is

1368
01:12:02,880 --> 01:12:05,840
Speaker 1: to integrate the messy, gross parts of you that you

1369
01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:08,799
Speaker 1: would rather just so glad to keep bryd closed doors.

1370
01:12:09,439 --> 01:12:11,120
Speaker 1: But you have you have to meet them, You have

1371
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:13,559
Speaker 1: to be with them. You have to understand that they'll

1372
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:16,519
Speaker 1: other times, your your shadowy self will come out to

1373
01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:17,960
Speaker 1: play a little bit more, But then you have a

1374
01:12:17,960 --> 01:12:21,519
Speaker 1: conversation and then it's a constant dance. Sometimes you might

1375
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:25,000
Speaker 1: need the shadowy parts of yourself in different ways. But

1376
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:28,200
Speaker 1: I truly don't believe. This is where I'm more than

1377
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:31,600
Speaker 1: happy to be convicted in in that you can't be

1378
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:35,519
Speaker 1: truly fulfilled in who you are as a person and

1379
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:39,479
Speaker 1: participate in the dehumanization of anyone in anything.

1380
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:43,639
Speaker 4: No, that's super intense and powerful at the same time,

1381
01:12:43,720 --> 01:12:47,120
Speaker 4: because there's a there's a sense of what I'm getting

1382
01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:50,880
Speaker 4: from listening to you, that when we see other people's shadows,

1383
01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:55,040
Speaker 4: we're so deeply reminded of our own that we have

1384
01:12:55,120 --> 01:12:59,120
Speaker 4: to project this belief that theirs exist bigger than ours,

1385
01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:04,839
Speaker 4: or there's a feeling of if someone shows their shadows,

1386
01:13:04,840 --> 01:13:07,040
Speaker 4: it gives me the excuse to continue to show mine,

1387
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:10,800
Speaker 4: and so your imperfection allows me to continue to be

1388
01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:12,000
Speaker 4: imperfect and not grow.

1389
01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:13,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's both.

1390
01:13:13,479 --> 01:13:16,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's both. It's both. It's both and.

1391
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:19,000
Speaker 1: Oh wow, I've never heard anyone put it in that way. Yeah,

1392
01:13:19,120 --> 01:13:20,040
Speaker 1: oh this is good.

1393
01:13:22,120 --> 01:13:22,839
Speaker 2: Oh wow.

1394
01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:25,360
Speaker 1: I'll give an example of the last one you've just said,

1395
01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:28,439
Speaker 1: like almost like if you show your shadow, it's a

1396
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:32,440
Speaker 1: permission slip for me to keep showing.

1397
01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:34,800
Speaker 2: Mine without ever questioning it, yes or ever.

1398
01:13:35,160 --> 01:13:38,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Sometimes people that are uncomfortable with my work, which,

1399
01:13:38,920 --> 01:13:40,559
Speaker 1: by the way, you can tell me, I think it's

1400
01:13:40,640 --> 01:13:44,799
Speaker 1: fairly non controversial. I think my what am I really saying.

1401
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:47,479
Speaker 1: I'm saying that we need to be willing to understand

1402
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:50,200
Speaker 1: different viewpoints without feeling like we have to take them

1403
01:13:50,240 --> 01:13:52,800
Speaker 1: as a part of ourselves. I'm saying that we are

1404
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:56,200
Speaker 1: braver than we realize. We need to push back against

1405
01:13:56,280 --> 01:13:59,360
Speaker 1: this culture that says we need to be constantly monitoring

1406
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:02,519
Speaker 1: what we're saying and self editing. I just don't believe

1407
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:04,599
Speaker 1: we need to be doing that. But there are some

1408
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:09,720
Speaker 1: people who will say, well, Africa, do you think some

1409
01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:12,479
Speaker 1: really dangerous people could come across your work? And they

1410
01:14:12,520 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 1: will use it as an excuse to say really hateful things,

1411
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:17,760
Speaker 1: to say really etcetera things, whatever the thing might be.

1412
01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:22,240
Speaker 1: And then I always come back to why do we

1413
01:14:22,280 --> 01:14:25,800
Speaker 1: always have to see? Why is that the default response?

1414
01:14:26,240 --> 01:14:26,439
Speaker 2: Right?

1415
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:29,520
Speaker 1: Why do we always have to go to those extremes?

1416
01:14:29,920 --> 01:14:33,320
Speaker 1: Are you an extreme person who's resonating with my work?

1417
01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:36,920
Speaker 1: Why do you believe that you can be nuanced but

1418
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:40,160
Speaker 1: other people can't be? Why do you believe that you

1419
01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:42,800
Speaker 1: can take what you need from what I say but

1420
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:44,920
Speaker 1: other people can't. It's that thing that you were saying

1421
01:14:44,960 --> 01:14:48,160
Speaker 1: before around how we believe that our approach is the

1422
01:14:48,200 --> 01:14:51,040
Speaker 1: best way only I can decipher this work? But what

1423
01:14:51,080 --> 01:14:54,599
Speaker 1: if someone dangerous comes It's like we need to grace.

1424
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:57,640
Speaker 1: It comes back to grace again. Can you have the

1425
01:14:57,680 --> 01:15:00,679
Speaker 1: grace to believe that other people are actually more rational

1426
01:15:00,760 --> 01:15:03,639
Speaker 1: than you've been made to believe. Yeah, and we see

1427
01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:05,600
Speaker 1: in our everyday lives. You were so right when you

1428
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:08,639
Speaker 1: were saying, for the average person, when they walk out

1429
01:15:08,680 --> 01:15:11,240
Speaker 1: into the world, it's rare for them to experience something

1430
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:14,679
Speaker 1: that is so it's rare because the norm is actually

1431
01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:18,400
Speaker 1: just normal people just going about their day. But in

1432
01:15:18,479 --> 01:15:19,719
Speaker 1: the same way you do.

1433
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:23,800
Speaker 2: So, why do you think that you are the exception? Right?

1434
01:15:24,479 --> 01:15:26,599
Speaker 1: And again these are questions and things that I say

1435
01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:31,080
Speaker 1: to myself Africa. Why do you get to the exception

1436
01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:34,920
Speaker 1: of someone that can encounter something supposedly dangerous and say,

1437
01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:38,000
Speaker 1: I don't resonate with this, but this is fine. Trust

1438
01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:41,080
Speaker 1: give other people the grace and the good faith that

1439
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:42,040
Speaker 1: they are able.

1440
01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:42,799
Speaker 2: To do the same.

1441
01:15:43,280 --> 01:15:49,599
Speaker 4: Totally, totally, I meet more kind, reasonable, thoughtful, yes, genuine,

1442
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:52,519
Speaker 4: sincere people on a daily basis than I do.

1443
01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:53,160
Speaker 3: The opposite.

1444
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:56,320
Speaker 4: Yes, but the opposite feels so loud online and so

1445
01:15:56,560 --> 01:16:00,360
Speaker 4: activated online and so amplified online that you can very

1446
01:16:00,360 --> 01:16:05,760
Speaker 4: well believe that kind people don't exist. And I can

1447
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:10,360
Speaker 4: honestly say that as we're talking about this, I want

1448
01:16:10,360 --> 01:16:14,920
Speaker 4: to understand from you why collective sabotage is the right

1449
01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:19,240
Speaker 4: terminology that you coined for cancel culture. And I want

1450
01:16:19,240 --> 01:16:20,720
Speaker 4: to dive into this. I've been waiting to get into

1451
01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:22,760
Speaker 4: it because I've really been wanting to honor each thing

1452
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:25,799
Speaker 4: we're discussing and not as run through because it's sparking

1453
01:16:25,840 --> 01:16:27,160
Speaker 4: so many thoughts and there's a.

1454
01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:30,280
Speaker 3: There's a sense of.

1455
01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:35,040
Speaker 4: Cancel culture holds people accountable, It holds people responsible, It

1456
01:16:35,120 --> 01:16:38,599
Speaker 4: helps people own up to their mistakes or not even

1457
01:16:38,640 --> 01:16:43,240
Speaker 4: own up. It helps people, it helps justice be served.

1458
01:16:44,240 --> 01:16:48,080
Speaker 4: How could that possibly collective sabotage? How could that possibly

1459
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:48,800
Speaker 4: be a bad thing?

1460
01:16:49,200 --> 01:16:51,920
Speaker 1: Even if we just look at the word let's start

1461
01:16:51,920 --> 01:16:55,840
Speaker 1: with the word cancel and just try to think of

1462
01:16:55,320 --> 01:16:59,760
Speaker 1: the sort of synonyms we can think of. To cancel is,

1463
01:16:59,800 --> 01:17:04,320
Speaker 1: to delete, is to eject, and then you can go

1464
01:17:04,439 --> 01:17:08,559
Speaker 1: even further, is to reject. When something is canceled, it's ended.

1465
01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:13,519
Speaker 1: It doesn't exist anymore. So I think that's it's a

1466
01:17:13,560 --> 01:17:17,160
Speaker 1: type of contradiction that doesn't really work for me, in

1467
01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:23,840
Speaker 1: the sense that justice and deletion and ejection, they just

1468
01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:26,759
Speaker 1: don't work together. Is the kind of contradiction that actually

1469
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:30,240
Speaker 1: causes chaos. So for me, the reason why I think

1470
01:17:30,240 --> 01:17:33,320
Speaker 1: it's important to really understand the importance of language when

1471
01:17:33,360 --> 01:17:35,680
Speaker 1: it comes to these issues is because we have a

1472
01:17:35,720 --> 01:17:38,880
Speaker 1: definition issue we just do. I think a lot of

1473
01:17:38,920 --> 01:17:41,360
Speaker 1: the time, if we were both clear on the definition

1474
01:17:41,400 --> 01:17:44,000
Speaker 1: that we're working with, we would come to kind of

1475
01:17:44,080 --> 01:17:47,080
Speaker 1: similar conclusions, maybe different ideas about how to get there,

1476
01:17:47,080 --> 01:17:49,599
Speaker 1: but we'll be like, Okay, that's fair enough. I don't

1477
01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:53,840
Speaker 1: know any reasonable person who wouldn't want people that have

1478
01:17:53,920 --> 01:17:57,800
Speaker 1: done harm to be held accountable, to be truly held accountable.

1479
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:01,720
Speaker 1: I don't know anyone that does a truly want progress,

1480
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:05,880
Speaker 1: not some kind of utopian, idealistic type, but progress that

1481
01:18:05,960 --> 01:18:08,400
Speaker 1: is grounded in the reality that works for most people.

1482
01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:13,840
Speaker 1: But if I think it means accountability and someone else

1483
01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:17,560
Speaker 1: thinks it's public shaming, we're working with very different definitions,

1484
01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:20,040
Speaker 1: but we're not even curious enough to know what it

1485
01:18:20,040 --> 01:18:22,639
Speaker 1: actually What is your definition of cancel culture? Because mine

1486
01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:26,439
Speaker 1: is this, and you're like, oh, okay, so to me,

1487
01:18:27,160 --> 01:18:30,840
Speaker 1: cancel culture not only has definition issues, but it's been.

1488
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:33,080
Speaker 2: So heavily politicized to.

1489
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:34,920
Speaker 1: The point where if I say I have written a

1490
01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:37,559
Speaker 1: book that also takes a look at the psychology of

1491
01:18:37,560 --> 01:18:40,800
Speaker 1: cancel culture, some people will think, oh, my god, that

1492
01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:43,680
Speaker 1: god someone is talking about this, or some people will think, oh,

1493
01:18:43,720 --> 01:18:46,559
Speaker 1: you're using the term that the right wing uses. Right,

1494
01:18:46,840 --> 01:18:50,360
Speaker 1: So it's so politicized already, So we can't even enter

1495
01:18:50,439 --> 01:18:53,960
Speaker 1: the conversation in good faith because there's already suspicion or

1496
01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:57,160
Speaker 1: people I'm thinking I'm speaking for them, or people thinking

1497
01:18:57,240 --> 01:19:00,400
Speaker 1: I'm alienating them. I'm really serious about the work that

1498
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:04,439
Speaker 1: I do because I truly believe that this conversation is

1499
01:19:04,479 --> 01:19:06,519
Speaker 1: not just a nice to have. It's something that is

1500
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:12,200
Speaker 1: causing relational fractures. Relationships are breaking because of this. People

1501
01:19:12,240 --> 01:19:17,040
Speaker 1: are ending long term relationships because of kind of insignificant

1502
01:19:17,080 --> 01:19:21,080
Speaker 1: political differences. There's so many things happening that would have

1503
01:19:21,200 --> 01:19:23,920
Speaker 1: never happened ten years ago. And it's not because of progress.

1504
01:19:24,160 --> 01:19:27,360
Speaker 1: It's because of a fear that has been embedded into

1505
01:19:27,400 --> 01:19:31,000
Speaker 1: cultures and into people's homes and beds. So I think

1506
01:19:31,040 --> 01:19:34,240
Speaker 1: it's a very important conversation to have. So I think

1507
01:19:34,280 --> 01:19:38,080
Speaker 1: the language aspect of it is very important. So as

1508
01:19:38,080 --> 01:19:40,639
Speaker 1: someone that has really been doing my best to understand

1509
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:43,960
Speaker 1: the workings of self sabotage, when your behavior and what

1510
01:19:44,000 --> 01:19:46,479
Speaker 1: you say you want is in direct contradiction and it

1511
01:19:46,560 --> 01:19:50,360
Speaker 1: causes chaos in your life when you have an inability

1512
01:19:50,439 --> 01:19:53,320
Speaker 1: to hold good in your life, so you do something

1513
01:19:53,320 --> 01:19:56,840
Speaker 1: to pull the plug. I realize that what we're experiencing,

1514
01:19:56,920 --> 01:20:00,320
Speaker 1: just on a wider scale is individuals who a in

1515
01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:03,920
Speaker 1: their own state of self sabotage, and then we come

1516
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:06,840
Speaker 1: together as a collective and what do we do. We

1517
01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:10,280
Speaker 1: sabotage because it's all we know. So I think collective

1518
01:20:10,320 --> 01:20:14,200
Speaker 1: sabotage to me is not politicized, but it's just much

1519
01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:17,080
Speaker 1: more accurate to the reality of what's happening. Whereas cancel

1520
01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:20,160
Speaker 1: culture feels nice and fun to say, but I think

1521
01:20:20,160 --> 01:20:22,360
Speaker 1: it doesn't really It doesn't really mean anything because we

1522
01:20:22,439 --> 01:20:25,840
Speaker 1: don't have an agreed upon definition of what it actually is.

1523
01:20:26,040 --> 01:20:28,000
Speaker 3: I fully agree with you. I don't think anyone's ever

1524
01:20:28,040 --> 01:20:28,760
Speaker 3: thought to define it.

1525
01:20:29,280 --> 01:20:31,280
Speaker 4: I can look at it and it just feels like, yeah,

1526
01:20:31,320 --> 01:20:33,559
Speaker 4: we'll jump on the bagmag and like this person's canceled.

1527
01:20:34,200 --> 01:20:36,800
Speaker 3: Oh when they canceled, Oh, isn't it over for them?

1528
01:20:37,040 --> 01:20:37,280
Speaker 2: Right?

1529
01:20:37,640 --> 01:20:39,600
Speaker 4: And it's like I always look at that and I

1530
01:20:39,640 --> 01:20:42,880
Speaker 4: think about even some of the criticism that the England

1531
01:20:42,920 --> 01:20:46,080
Speaker 4: football team took in the europe and a lot of

1532
01:20:46,120 --> 01:20:48,599
Speaker 4: them came out and we're just like guys, we're trying

1533
01:20:48,640 --> 01:20:53,200
Speaker 4: to win, and it affects our mental health, especially young players.

1534
01:20:53,200 --> 01:20:54,599
Speaker 3: And it was so interesting.

1535
01:20:54,640 --> 01:20:56,880
Speaker 4: We live in a society that says mental health is

1536
01:20:56,880 --> 01:21:00,160
Speaker 4: the most important thing, but then if we perceive what

1537
01:21:00,200 --> 01:21:03,240
Speaker 4: someone has done is wrong, we're happy to destroy their

1538
01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:06,879
Speaker 4: mental instant instantly. And I go back to that perceive

1539
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:09,640
Speaker 4: what they've done is wrong because some of it, you know,

1540
01:21:09,640 --> 01:21:13,400
Speaker 4: obviously there's illegal activity, there's there's things that are just

1541
01:21:13,760 --> 01:21:14,360
Speaker 4: you know that.

1542
01:21:14,200 --> 01:21:16,960
Speaker 1: That again, that's common sense we still get to use.

1543
01:21:17,360 --> 01:21:19,320
Speaker 1: I love what you're saying because it's something that I

1544
01:21:19,360 --> 01:21:22,880
Speaker 1: also find though that people are now needing to find

1545
01:21:22,920 --> 01:21:27,360
Speaker 1: themselves doing in conversation is to cushion everything and saying

1546
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:31,639
Speaker 1: but I don't mean this. Because I found myself having

1547
01:21:31,640 --> 01:21:34,960
Speaker 1: to do that, then I'm like, no, Africa, because that

1548
01:21:35,040 --> 01:21:37,960
Speaker 1: kind of feeds into that thing of being like, but

1549
01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:40,559
Speaker 1: I'm not saying this. I think there's a time and place,

1550
01:21:41,160 --> 01:21:43,400
Speaker 1: but I think this culture has created a thing where

1551
01:21:43,439 --> 01:21:48,080
Speaker 1: we're overly apologetic and just cushioning just in case, which

1552
01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:52,040
Speaker 1: can actually remove a level of conviction and assertiveness that

1553
01:21:52,120 --> 01:21:55,519
Speaker 1: is really important, and also putting the responsibility onto the

1554
01:21:55,600 --> 01:21:58,400
Speaker 1: listener to say, actually, but that is common sense, you know.

1555
01:21:58,479 --> 01:22:01,040
Speaker 1: So I find that we always have to do this

1556
01:22:01,160 --> 01:22:04,639
Speaker 1: sort of dance where we give like a disclaimant to say,

1557
01:22:04,640 --> 01:22:07,200
Speaker 1: I'm not saying this, but also look out for where

1558
01:22:07,200 --> 01:22:09,559
Speaker 1: we're doing it, because we already know.

1559
01:22:09,840 --> 01:22:14,200
Speaker 2: Yes, going to people, Well what about for sure? For sure?

1560
01:22:14,320 --> 01:22:14,719
Speaker 3: For sure?

1561
01:22:14,800 --> 01:22:17,880
Speaker 4: I saw the best version of its funny you say that.

1562
01:22:18,240 --> 01:22:20,160
Speaker 4: So there was this video that went viral a few

1563
01:22:20,200 --> 01:22:24,160
Speaker 4: years ago. I think it was made by maybe maybe

1564
01:22:24,160 --> 01:22:27,160
Speaker 4: it was an HR company or I can't remember the company,

1565
01:22:27,160 --> 01:22:29,400
Speaker 4: but they made this videos a few years ago, and

1566
01:22:29,439 --> 01:22:33,640
Speaker 4: the concept of the video was there were interviewers interviewing

1567
01:22:34,040 --> 01:22:37,120
Speaker 4: interviewees for a potential job. So let's say you were

1568
01:22:37,160 --> 01:22:39,280
Speaker 4: applying for this job and I was interviewing you. So

1569
01:22:39,360 --> 01:22:41,960
Speaker 4: I was asking you interview questions like give me an

1570
01:22:41,960 --> 01:22:44,200
Speaker 4: example of when you've been proactive, and how would you

1571
01:22:44,200 --> 01:22:46,800
Speaker 4: deal with pressure, et cetera. And then some of the

1572
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:50,439
Speaker 4: questions became how would you deal with pressure twenty four

1573
01:22:50,439 --> 01:22:52,880
Speaker 4: hours a day? And then the questions went on to

1574
01:22:52,920 --> 01:22:58,919
Speaker 4: say things like the asset that you're assisting requires constant attention,

1575
01:22:59,160 --> 01:23:01,360
Speaker 4: how would you deal with that? So they started asking

1576
01:23:01,360 --> 01:23:05,240
Speaker 4: all these questions, and the interviewees were quite like frazzled

1577
01:23:05,240 --> 01:23:07,240
Speaker 4: by some of those questions. They seemed extreme. They were

1578
01:23:07,280 --> 01:23:10,080
Speaker 4: like that sounds hard, Like that's really tough, that's difficult.

1579
01:23:10,400 --> 01:23:13,720
Speaker 4: And then the interviewer had said, we were interviewing for

1580
01:23:13,880 --> 01:23:16,479
Speaker 4: the job of mother and it was a happy Mother's

1581
01:23:16,520 --> 01:23:18,960
Speaker 4: Day video.

1582
01:23:17,640 --> 01:23:20,439
Speaker 3: To honor mother's and just how hard they work.

1583
01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:23,040
Speaker 4: And it was this beautiful celebration of like what a

1584
01:23:23,120 --> 01:23:26,519
Speaker 4: mom's job profile would look like and just making people away.

1585
01:23:26,520 --> 01:23:28,360
Speaker 4: And the whole video was just happy mother today, Like

1586
01:23:28,400 --> 01:23:31,000
Speaker 4: that was the point of it. Beautiful video, millions and

1587
01:23:31,040 --> 01:23:34,280
Speaker 4: millions of views, shares, et cetera. And the top comment

1588
01:23:34,520 --> 01:23:38,840
Speaker 4: on that video was what about dads? And it was

1589
01:23:38,840 --> 01:23:42,320
Speaker 4: really interesting. And I looked at that and I was like, oh, fascinating.

1590
01:23:42,920 --> 01:23:45,160
Speaker 4: And it was Mother's Day when it was made and posted,

1591
01:23:45,640 --> 01:23:47,720
Speaker 4: and again I was thinking. I was like, I understand that,

1592
01:23:47,840 --> 01:23:51,280
Speaker 4: Like I do understand, dads are important, dads are valuable.

1593
01:23:51,280 --> 01:23:52,880
Speaker 4: There are some people who don't have mums who have

1594
01:23:52,960 --> 01:23:56,639
Speaker 4: been raised by their dads. I do think that men

1595
01:23:56,920 --> 01:23:59,640
Speaker 4: are involved and are doing incredible things at home, and

1596
01:23:59,760 --> 01:24:01,559
Speaker 4: and I get it if I was a dad I'd

1597
01:24:01,560 --> 01:24:04,040
Speaker 4: probably feel that way too, but it's a Mother's Day

1598
01:24:04,360 --> 01:24:04,680
Speaker 4: and it's a.

1599
01:24:04,640 --> 01:24:07,080
Speaker 3: Happy Wednesday video, Like can we let that breathe?

1600
01:24:07,120 --> 01:24:10,800
Speaker 4: Can we let that have its space and not have

1601
01:24:10,960 --> 01:24:11,840
Speaker 4: to make it about us?

1602
01:24:11,840 --> 01:24:12,360
Speaker 3: So that gives me.

1603
01:24:13,960 --> 01:24:17,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, it does, even just those words, can

1604
01:24:17,520 --> 01:24:20,439
Speaker 1: we let that breathe? Can we just let that sit?

1605
01:24:21,120 --> 01:24:24,160
Speaker 1: Can what I'm saying right now just be what I'm

1606
01:24:24,200 --> 01:24:27,160
Speaker 1: saying right now. I ended up writing kind of like

1607
01:24:27,200 --> 01:24:29,439
Speaker 1: a like an extensive section on this towards the end

1608
01:24:29,479 --> 01:24:34,080
Speaker 1: of the book about looking out for preemptive apologies, because

1609
01:24:34,080 --> 01:24:36,599
Speaker 1: I noticed I had started to do that in my work,

1610
01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:41,040
Speaker 1: where I was always anticipating the rejection. If I'm just

1611
01:24:41,080 --> 01:24:43,360
Speaker 1: to name it plainly, to that primal thing, I was

1612
01:24:43,360 --> 01:24:48,680
Speaker 1: already anticipating the rejection, the abandonment, the sort of suspicion

1613
01:24:48,800 --> 01:24:51,479
Speaker 1: from other people, or that I haven't done enough or

1614
01:24:51,560 --> 01:24:55,120
Speaker 1: haven't said enough, I haven't prioritized enough people. Even speaking

1615
01:24:55,160 --> 01:25:00,120
Speaker 1: from my subjective experience, I'd find myself and again we

1616
01:25:00,160 --> 01:25:02,600
Speaker 1: got here, because we're talking about kind of how important

1617
01:25:02,720 --> 01:25:06,760
Speaker 1: language is. I found myself sort of being like, but

1618
01:25:06,800 --> 01:25:09,000
Speaker 1: I'm not saying this, but in talking about this, I'm

1619
01:25:09,000 --> 01:25:12,360
Speaker 1: not that I was like, no, I can't keep doing

1620
01:25:12,520 --> 01:25:16,200
Speaker 1: That's not the way normal people speak, because we've started

1621
01:25:16,240 --> 01:25:20,920
Speaker 1: to speak kind of like Twitter threads and infographics and disclaimers,

1622
01:25:20,960 --> 01:25:24,520
Speaker 1: because you put disclaimers if you're writing something, but in conversation,

1623
01:25:24,680 --> 01:25:26,800
Speaker 1: that is not how you have normal conversations.

1624
01:25:26,920 --> 01:25:28,479
Speaker 2: It's fear because I was afraid.

1625
01:25:28,920 --> 01:25:31,080
Speaker 1: I was afraid that I'll be called out and said

1626
01:25:31,439 --> 01:25:34,040
Speaker 1: and then I said, you know what, I really do

1627
01:25:34,120 --> 01:25:37,120
Speaker 1: trust myself. I trust them that I'm already being so

1628
01:25:37,280 --> 01:25:40,479
Speaker 1: mindful with what I'm saying. I refuse to live in

1629
01:25:40,560 --> 01:25:43,200
Speaker 1: such a fear where I'm overly monitoring and saying but

1630
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:44,400
Speaker 1: I don't mean no.

1631
01:25:44,479 --> 01:25:47,000
Speaker 2: You get to use common sense. I'll leave that part

1632
01:25:47,080 --> 01:25:47,240
Speaker 2: to you.

1633
01:25:47,479 --> 01:25:51,479
Speaker 1: You get to use common sense where all autonomous adults,

1634
01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:54,120
Speaker 1: you know, And that really changed so much for me.

1635
01:25:54,200 --> 01:25:56,840
Speaker 1: So I think something else that you can do without

1636
01:25:56,880 --> 01:25:59,280
Speaker 1: needing to go on this big okay, now I'm doing

1637
01:25:59,320 --> 01:26:02,080
Speaker 1: the work, is sort of just looking at your language.

1638
01:26:02,200 --> 01:26:04,920
Speaker 1: Where do you have sort of preemptive apologies of saying

1639
01:26:05,800 --> 01:26:08,000
Speaker 1: maybe sharing your story and anecdote, then saying but I

1640
01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:10,400
Speaker 1: don't mean this, and of course I don't. Where is

1641
01:26:10,439 --> 01:26:13,280
Speaker 1: your mind going to cover the extremes because you already

1642
01:26:13,400 --> 01:26:15,880
Speaker 1: believe that people will go to the extremes and if

1643
01:26:15,960 --> 01:26:18,360
Speaker 1: they do, can you sit with that discompany?

1644
01:26:18,400 --> 01:26:20,200
Speaker 2: Can you let that breathe for right?

1645
01:26:20,360 --> 01:26:21,160
Speaker 3: So good? Yeah?

1646
01:26:21,360 --> 01:26:25,479
Speaker 4: And that's the thing what you're hitting like really strongly

1647
01:26:25,520 --> 01:26:30,360
Speaker 4: there is that's what we're doing. We're constantly comparing common

1648
01:26:30,439 --> 01:26:31,639
Speaker 4: sense to the extreme.

1649
01:26:31,880 --> 01:26:32,400
Speaker 3: Ah.

1650
01:26:32,520 --> 01:26:35,160
Speaker 4: Right, That's why your point about not apologizing is so

1651
01:26:35,240 --> 01:26:39,360
Speaker 4: important because most of us live in a common sense.

1652
01:26:39,439 --> 01:26:42,479
Speaker 4: Like I would honestly say that if anyone listens to

1653
01:26:42,520 --> 01:26:46,679
Speaker 4: my podcast regularly or has read my books, I feel

1654
01:26:46,800 --> 01:26:51,240
Speaker 4: knows that Jay has good intentions, is a good person

1655
01:26:51,280 --> 01:26:53,439
Speaker 4: who cares, who wants to do good in the world,

1656
01:26:53,479 --> 01:26:56,439
Speaker 4: because you hear me and know me deeply enough. And

1657
01:26:56,479 --> 01:26:59,520
Speaker 4: so for those individuals, I actually don't need to clarify

1658
01:26:59,720 --> 01:27:02,600
Speaker 4: all because for the people who are deeply involved in

1659
01:27:02,640 --> 01:27:04,519
Speaker 4: my work and embedded and the millions of people that

1660
01:27:04,600 --> 01:27:06,960
Speaker 4: do that, I feel like you know me and you

1661
01:27:07,000 --> 01:27:10,600
Speaker 4: know who I am. If I have to caveat everything

1662
01:27:10,760 --> 01:27:13,840
Speaker 4: for someone who may come across a thirty second clip

1663
01:27:13,880 --> 01:27:16,439
Speaker 4: of me or an edited piece about me, or whatever

1664
01:27:16,479 --> 01:27:19,720
Speaker 4: it may be, if I'm speaking only to those people, now,

1665
01:27:19,720 --> 01:27:23,360
Speaker 4: I'm going to constantly speak in disclaimers, caveats, apps, and

1666
01:27:23,640 --> 01:27:26,759
Speaker 4: everything else because I'm now catering for the one percent.

1667
01:27:27,160 --> 01:27:29,960
Speaker 4: I'm not catering for the majority of people who are

1668
01:27:30,000 --> 01:27:32,080
Speaker 4: living with common sense, who are not living in extremes,

1669
01:27:32,120 --> 01:27:35,280
Speaker 4: who are not judging every word I say and analyzing everything.

1670
01:27:35,280 --> 01:27:37,320
Speaker 4: But we're all scared of that clip being made of

1671
01:27:37,400 --> 01:27:40,519
Speaker 4: us where something's taken out of context, and what does

1672
01:27:40,560 --> 01:27:42,360
Speaker 4: it mean when it's out of context It's been used

1673
01:27:42,360 --> 01:27:46,439
Speaker 4: in an extreme way because in context it was not extreme,

1674
01:27:46,920 --> 01:27:49,920
Speaker 4: and it's only extreme when it's out of context. And

1675
01:27:49,960 --> 01:27:53,160
Speaker 4: I feel like, of course, the ironic part of all

1676
01:27:53,200 --> 01:27:54,880
Speaker 4: of this is a lot of platforms are built their

1677
01:27:55,520 --> 01:27:57,240
Speaker 4: platform by being extreme.

1678
01:27:57,840 --> 01:28:00,479
Speaker 1: I really want anyone watching or listening to know that

1679
01:28:01,160 --> 01:28:03,040
Speaker 1: this still applies to them, whether or not they have

1680
01:28:03,120 --> 01:28:07,160
Speaker 1: a platform or not. But that's the most interesting thing

1681
01:28:07,200 --> 01:28:10,120
Speaker 1: with all of this in that everything has sort of

1682
01:28:10,200 --> 01:28:14,600
Speaker 1: changed in that everyone is now seen as a platform.

1683
01:28:14,840 --> 01:28:17,639
Speaker 1: That's the part of this that makes it most interesting

1684
01:28:17,680 --> 01:28:21,000
Speaker 1: for me, in that every single person, not even just

1685
01:28:21,000 --> 01:28:24,000
Speaker 1: when you're online, by the way, but even when you're offline,

1686
01:28:24,600 --> 01:28:28,559
Speaker 1: you feel like you have to be a representative for

1687
01:28:28,800 --> 01:28:31,839
Speaker 1: someone or something or some kind of stance or opinion.

1688
01:28:32,160 --> 01:28:35,000
Speaker 1: So even though you might not be getting actual clips

1689
01:28:35,040 --> 01:28:38,639
Speaker 1: of you being put online, it's almost like you're looking

1690
01:28:38,680 --> 01:28:41,280
Speaker 1: up for where the snapshot someone might take from a

1691
01:28:41,320 --> 01:28:43,880
Speaker 1: conversation someone you've just met. So I think it's again

1692
01:28:43,960 --> 01:28:47,200
Speaker 1: that thing where it's dehumanizing when you think of all

1693
01:28:47,240 --> 01:28:51,240
Speaker 1: of this, because human beings make mistakes, We stumble on

1694
01:28:51,280 --> 01:28:53,680
Speaker 1: our words, might say something wrong, and then you might

1695
01:28:53,760 --> 01:28:55,519
Speaker 1: kind of correct yourself or whatever it might be, and

1696
01:28:55,520 --> 01:28:57,840
Speaker 1: then you might sort of like it's human, you know,

1697
01:28:58,360 --> 01:29:01,280
Speaker 1: But we're dehumanizing ourselves and thinking that we have to

1698
01:29:01,280 --> 01:29:03,679
Speaker 1: be these machines that say things in the right way,

1699
01:29:04,080 --> 01:29:06,519
Speaker 1: and when you say something, you have to neatly put

1700
01:29:06,520 --> 01:29:09,440
Speaker 1: a disclaimer on it, not even just in a conversation

1701
01:29:09,560 --> 01:29:12,800
Speaker 1: like there's a public one, but private ones too. And

1702
01:29:13,040 --> 01:29:16,639
Speaker 1: I actually care more about that side of things because

1703
01:29:16,680 --> 01:29:20,439
Speaker 1: I think the personal becomes the public. It really does

1704
01:29:20,600 --> 01:29:23,240
Speaker 1: now more than ever. So something that I always say

1705
01:29:23,320 --> 01:29:25,719
Speaker 1: and would like for everyone to remember is that your

1706
01:29:25,760 --> 01:29:29,880
Speaker 1: interpersonal relationships are the best training ground for everything we're

1707
01:29:29,920 --> 01:29:33,240
Speaker 1: talking about. It's not about a public performance. I'm not

1708
01:29:33,280 --> 01:29:35,439
Speaker 1: trying to tell you how to be better on social media.

1709
01:29:35,880 --> 01:29:39,599
Speaker 1: I think that that's completely relevant. I think who you

1710
01:29:39,680 --> 01:29:43,080
Speaker 1: are in your personal life then becomes who you are

1711
01:29:43,120 --> 01:29:45,439
Speaker 1: on social media, whether you like it or not. And

1712
01:29:45,720 --> 01:29:48,880
Speaker 1: I hope that can also offer relief because it's not

1713
01:29:48,920 --> 01:29:53,000
Speaker 1: about teaching you how to deal with people in comment sections.

1714
01:29:53,640 --> 01:29:56,519
Speaker 1: It's allowing for you to be grounded enough and who

1715
01:29:56,520 --> 01:29:58,120
Speaker 1: you are as a person, and to know what your

1716
01:29:58,160 --> 01:30:00,920
Speaker 1: priorities are. That when you see things and common sections,

1717
01:30:00,960 --> 01:30:03,760
Speaker 1: you remember that these are strangers that if we walk

1718
01:30:03,840 --> 01:30:06,280
Speaker 1: past each other right now, I wouldn't even know that

1719
01:30:06,360 --> 01:30:08,720
Speaker 1: it's you. So therefore, you don't get to have that

1720
01:30:08,840 --> 01:30:12,080
Speaker 1: power over me. You really don't you get to remove

1721
01:30:12,160 --> 01:30:14,760
Speaker 1: the charge. But I think if enough of us give

1722
01:30:14,800 --> 01:30:18,320
Speaker 1: ourselves that grace that we were speaking about, I don't

1723
01:30:18,320 --> 01:30:20,479
Speaker 1: think it's a utopian yearning for me to think that

1724
01:30:20,520 --> 01:30:24,360
Speaker 1: we would start to see our social online interactions look differently.

1725
01:30:24,960 --> 01:30:27,439
Speaker 1: I think they just would, yes, because it wouldn't feel

1726
01:30:27,479 --> 01:30:30,000
Speaker 1: normal for you to leave a comment about someone's body

1727
01:30:30,080 --> 01:30:32,679
Speaker 1: or their what because to you, you would Why would

1728
01:30:32,680 --> 01:30:36,160
Speaker 1: I even say that? You know? I think I find

1729
01:30:36,200 --> 01:30:40,280
Speaker 1: myself coming back to grace and everything we're speaking about.

1730
01:30:40,439 --> 01:30:41,360
Speaker 3: I got really lucky.

1731
01:30:41,400 --> 01:30:45,559
Speaker 4: I was the mediator in my family growing up, okay,

1732
01:30:45,720 --> 01:30:48,320
Speaker 4: since I was like ten years old, okay, and so

1733
01:30:49,200 --> 01:30:54,160
Speaker 4: I early on had to listen to everyone and make

1734
01:30:54,280 --> 01:30:58,439
Speaker 4: sense of it in order to help everyone. Yeah, and

1735
01:30:58,479 --> 01:31:01,320
Speaker 4: so I've just done that for so long that I

1736
01:31:01,400 --> 01:31:05,559
Speaker 4: don't know any other way. I don't actually know how

1737
01:31:05,680 --> 01:31:09,599
Speaker 4: not to show grace or not to give someone space

1738
01:31:09,640 --> 01:31:11,479
Speaker 4: to understand it, because I've had to do it for

1739
01:31:11,520 --> 01:31:13,080
Speaker 4: so long, and I saw it to be the most

1740
01:31:13,160 --> 01:31:18,639
Speaker 4: valuable way to create a sense of understanding, of nuance,

1741
01:31:18,760 --> 01:31:21,680
Speaker 4: understanding of the layer nature of our world, understanding the

1742
01:31:21,720 --> 01:31:25,080
Speaker 4: complexity I have within. And so it was really fascinating

1743
01:31:25,120 --> 01:31:28,720
Speaker 4: for me because as I started to give myself permission

1744
01:31:28,960 --> 01:31:33,439
Speaker 4: to be all of myself, and I knew at the

1745
01:31:33,479 --> 01:31:36,520
Speaker 4: beginning of my journey that if I could have easily

1746
01:31:36,720 --> 01:31:43,439
Speaker 4: played into the caricature of what a personal growth self

1747
01:31:43,439 --> 01:31:46,960
Speaker 4: help individual should look like, should do and should act like,

1748
01:31:48,160 --> 01:31:52,680
Speaker 4: and I chose very clearly. I was like, I'm purposefully

1749
01:31:52,800 --> 01:31:57,519
Speaker 4: not going to dress spiritual because I love that to me,

1750
01:31:57,720 --> 01:32:01,360
Speaker 4: is not what I learned. It wasn't about what I wore,

1751
01:32:01,840 --> 01:32:04,400
Speaker 4: or it's not about my hairstyle, or it wasn't about

1752
01:32:04,840 --> 01:32:07,120
Speaker 4: the length of my beard. Like all of those things

1753
01:32:07,160 --> 01:32:11,280
Speaker 4: were not the definition of practicing wisdom or learning the

1754
01:32:11,360 --> 01:32:15,080
Speaker 4: path or following a path. And I was like, also,

1755
01:32:15,120 --> 01:32:17,280
Speaker 4: as a kid who grew up in London, I liked streetwear,

1756
01:32:17,920 --> 01:32:20,080
Speaker 4: and even though I became a monk and gave that

1757
01:32:20,160 --> 01:32:22,799
Speaker 4: all up, at one point when I came back to reality,

1758
01:32:22,800 --> 01:32:24,479
Speaker 4: I was like, that's still a part of me. I'm

1759
01:32:24,520 --> 01:32:27,040
Speaker 4: still a kid who grew up in North London, and

1760
01:32:27,080 --> 01:32:29,640
Speaker 4: so I'm going to let that breathe. And at the

1761
01:32:29,640 --> 01:32:31,439
Speaker 4: same time, I love meditating every day and I do

1762
01:32:31,479 --> 01:32:32,800
Speaker 4: that for two hours a day. I'm going to let

1763
01:32:32,800 --> 01:32:36,439
Speaker 4: that breathe. And at the same time, I don't care

1764
01:32:36,600 --> 01:32:38,719
Speaker 4: to drink anymore, and so I'm going to let that breathe.

1765
01:32:38,800 --> 01:32:41,559
Speaker 4: And oh, I actually still love football, like it's still

1766
01:32:41,600 --> 01:32:43,960
Speaker 4: the first love of my life, and I love watching football.

1767
01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:46,760
Speaker 4: I'm going to let that breathe. And oh, you know what,

1768
01:32:46,800 --> 01:32:51,040
Speaker 4: I actually do like certain comforts and things. Okay, I'm

1769
01:32:51,040 --> 01:32:53,360
Speaker 4: going to let that breathe. And yes, I gave them

1770
01:32:53,400 --> 01:32:55,760
Speaker 4: all up at one point. And what I found was

1771
01:32:55,800 --> 01:32:59,519
Speaker 4: really interesting is the more genuinely transparent and authentic I

1772
01:32:59,600 --> 01:33:02,880
Speaker 4: was about giving myself permission. The majority of people saw

1773
01:33:02,920 --> 01:33:04,839
Speaker 4: that and loved that, and I felt so much support

1774
01:33:04,880 --> 01:33:07,960
Speaker 4: and love. But then the one percent feels triggered by that,

1775
01:33:08,560 --> 01:33:12,040
Speaker 4: and then you start questioning whether you should curate your

1776
01:33:12,080 --> 01:33:15,200
Speaker 4: whole life for that one percent, because this is also

1777
01:33:15,240 --> 01:33:16,439
Speaker 4: our professional.

1778
01:33:15,960 --> 01:33:17,679
Speaker 3: Life, not just our personal life.

1779
01:33:17,920 --> 01:33:20,000
Speaker 4: And I've constantly gone more and more to say, you

1780
01:33:20,080 --> 01:33:21,960
Speaker 4: know what, I'm just in a place in my life

1781
01:33:22,439 --> 01:33:24,360
Speaker 4: where i just want to let it breathe. I'm not

1782
01:33:25,200 --> 01:33:31,960
Speaker 4: going to stifle curate perfectly present because.

1783
01:33:31,920 --> 01:33:34,360
Speaker 3: I don't want to.

1784
01:33:33,439 --> 01:33:36,519
Speaker 4: Be thirty years older and look back and go, gosh,

1785
01:33:36,600 --> 01:33:39,080
Speaker 4: I just don't know who I am anymore. And it

1786
01:33:39,120 --> 01:33:41,040
Speaker 4: came with who we had on the show, like we

1787
01:33:41,080 --> 01:33:44,479
Speaker 4: had podcasts with guests that I remember when my comment

1788
01:33:44,520 --> 01:33:49,400
Speaker 4: section was Sunshine Land, because it was just this small,

1789
01:33:49,479 --> 01:33:53,559
Speaker 4: beautiful place where it hadn't yet scaled enough, but it

1790
01:33:53,600 --> 01:33:57,040
Speaker 4: also hadn't We weren't doing things maybe that pushed the

1791
01:33:57,040 --> 01:33:59,360
Speaker 4: boundary or pushed the envelope. And as soon as we

1792
01:33:59,400 --> 01:34:01,360
Speaker 4: started to do that, you start to see the conflict,

1793
01:34:01,400 --> 01:34:04,000
Speaker 4: you start to see the disconnect. I guess the point

1794
01:34:04,040 --> 01:34:08,120
Speaker 4: I'm making is an interview didn't have to be me

1795
01:34:08,320 --> 01:34:12,519
Speaker 4: saying I agree and accept what this person is saying,

1796
01:34:12,600 --> 01:34:15,400
Speaker 4: unless I actually say I agree, yes, Maybe it was

1797
01:34:15,439 --> 01:34:18,840
Speaker 4: for me to understand someone's experience, maybe for me to

1798
01:34:18,920 --> 01:34:21,960
Speaker 4: understand someone's story. Going back to your language of the difference,

1799
01:34:21,960 --> 01:34:25,200
Speaker 4: So when did an interview become an acceptance of someone's beliefs?

1800
01:34:25,479 --> 01:34:29,280
Speaker 4: Isn't the point of an interview to understand someone's perspectives?

1801
01:34:29,680 --> 01:34:31,840
Speaker 4: And so I started to see, you know, judgment of

1802
01:34:31,920 --> 01:34:33,760
Speaker 4: what guests we had or whatever, like you know, I

1803
01:34:33,800 --> 01:34:35,880
Speaker 4: remember again, this is the one percent, I want to

1804
01:34:35,920 --> 01:34:38,719
Speaker 4: say to the majority of people. But it's so interesting

1805
01:34:38,760 --> 01:34:40,360
Speaker 4: how you start seeing it and it so it was

1806
01:34:40,439 --> 01:34:43,599
Speaker 4: like I would see every time we had a celebrity clip,

1807
01:34:43,760 --> 01:34:46,040
Speaker 4: that'd be the one percent of comments that go, Jay,

1808
01:34:46,080 --> 01:34:47,360
Speaker 4: why are you only interviewing celebrities.

1809
01:34:47,400 --> 01:34:47,960
Speaker 3: I'm like, wait a minute.

1810
01:34:47,960 --> 01:34:49,439
Speaker 4: If you look at the fifty two guests we had

1811
01:34:49,439 --> 01:34:52,400
Speaker 4: this year, I promise you there's not fifty two celebrities

1812
01:34:52,439 --> 01:34:54,160
Speaker 4: in the world. And if you look at the guests,

1813
01:34:54,160 --> 01:34:56,320
Speaker 4: you'll probably find two to three guests a month that

1814
01:34:56,360 --> 01:34:59,559
Speaker 4: are not celebrities. And by the way, the celebrity conversations

1815
01:34:59,560 --> 01:35:01,160
Speaker 4: are also human conversations.

1816
01:35:01,520 --> 01:35:03,200
Speaker 3: They humanized human conversations.

1817
01:35:03,200 --> 01:35:06,880
Speaker 4: They're still about mental health, wellbeing, personal experience, and so

1818
01:35:06,920 --> 01:35:09,840
Speaker 4: it's so interesting to me that you start having to

1819
01:35:09,920 --> 01:35:12,720
Speaker 4: explain everything. And then I got to a point where

1820
01:35:12,720 --> 01:35:15,479
Speaker 4: I was like, no, those who know me know me yes,

1821
01:35:15,520 --> 01:35:18,800
Speaker 4: and those who don't, I truly wish them well, and

1822
01:35:18,800 --> 01:35:21,360
Speaker 4: I hope they do expose themselves to more of my work,

1823
01:35:21,400 --> 01:35:24,120
Speaker 4: because I think they will if they look beyond one

1824
01:35:24,160 --> 01:35:26,800
Speaker 4: episode or one page of a book or one clip

1825
01:35:26,960 --> 01:35:30,960
Speaker 4: thirty seconds. And I hope that you do that, and

1826
01:35:31,040 --> 01:35:32,679
Speaker 4: I hope that I can connect with you one day.

1827
01:35:33,080 --> 01:35:35,599
Speaker 4: But I'm not going to try and cater and curate

1828
01:35:35,680 --> 01:35:38,640
Speaker 4: myself for the one percent, because I don't want to

1829
01:35:38,640 --> 01:35:41,880
Speaker 4: live that way. And I trust that the common sense

1830
01:35:42,240 --> 01:35:44,160
Speaker 4: and the lack of extremes is where the majority of

1831
01:35:44,160 --> 01:35:45,640
Speaker 4: the world lives, and that's where we all want to live.

1832
01:35:45,680 --> 01:35:46,599
Speaker 2: To me, I love that.

1833
01:35:46,720 --> 01:35:50,480
Speaker 1: I love that so much because it speaks to exactly

1834
01:35:50,520 --> 01:35:52,960
Speaker 1: what I had to do and what I encourage anyone

1835
01:35:53,000 --> 01:35:58,439
Speaker 1: who's even visible in some sense, especially online, to pay

1836
01:35:58,479 --> 01:36:02,080
Speaker 1: attention to where you might be creating an audience that

1837
01:36:02,120 --> 01:36:04,920
Speaker 1: will never allow you to change, because that's what I

1838
01:36:05,000 --> 01:36:07,559
Speaker 1: noticed for myself in twenty twenty. So, after that thing

1839
01:36:07,680 --> 01:36:10,840
Speaker 1: happened and I was getting applauded for it, and there

1840
01:36:10,840 --> 01:36:13,400
Speaker 1: were people that dropped off, people that were like, this

1841
01:36:13,600 --> 01:36:16,280
Speaker 1: is so out of integrity compared to what you have

1842
01:36:16,400 --> 01:36:18,000
Speaker 1: said and who you are as a person. And I

1843
01:36:18,040 --> 01:36:22,240
Speaker 1: completely understand that now, people that could see the intolerance

1844
01:36:22,280 --> 01:36:24,640
Speaker 1: for what it was. Maybe some dropped off silently, some

1845
01:36:24,720 --> 01:36:27,920
Speaker 1: might have said something, but the majority was the crowd

1846
01:36:28,000 --> 01:36:31,559
Speaker 1: and the applause and it triggering that sort of elation

1847
01:36:31,840 --> 01:36:35,519
Speaker 1: and power and arousal, whatever it might be. But once

1848
01:36:35,560 --> 01:36:40,040
Speaker 1: I changed my mind and sort of walked back that

1849
01:36:40,200 --> 01:36:43,759
Speaker 1: behavior and saw it for what it was, I had

1850
01:36:43,920 --> 01:36:48,680
Speaker 1: a lot of people drop off, people that didn't appreciate

1851
01:36:48,960 --> 01:36:51,479
Speaker 1: the new ones and the grade that I was bringing forward.

1852
01:36:51,880 --> 01:36:53,800
Speaker 1: There were many more, but again it's that it's that

1853
01:36:53,920 --> 01:36:58,120
Speaker 1: seemingly one percent, or at least the minority, right. There

1854
01:36:58,120 --> 01:37:00,840
Speaker 1: were people that thought that I need to speak and

1855
01:37:00,880 --> 01:37:04,160
Speaker 1: think a specific way because I am black, because I'm

1856
01:37:04,240 --> 01:37:07,080
Speaker 1: left leaning, because I'm progressive, because I'm X, y Z,

1857
01:37:07,320 --> 01:37:10,439
Speaker 1: whatever the identity markers are. There's an expectation for all

1858
01:37:10,439 --> 01:37:13,240
Speaker 1: of those things, you know. So when I did change

1859
01:37:13,240 --> 01:37:15,519
Speaker 1: my mind and started exploring a lot of the themes

1860
01:37:15,560 --> 01:37:17,960
Speaker 1: that I explore today, there were a lot of people

1861
01:37:17,960 --> 01:37:20,960
Speaker 1: that were very uncomfortable with that. Similar to what you're

1862
01:37:21,000 --> 01:37:24,200
Speaker 1: saying about everything is fine when you're sort of abiding

1863
01:37:24,240 --> 01:37:27,560
Speaker 1: by what is expected, but when you deviate from that norm,

1864
01:37:27,880 --> 01:37:30,400
Speaker 1: there's a lot of teething issues and a lot of

1865
01:37:30,439 --> 01:37:33,640
Speaker 1: friction and a lot of you know, creating space for

1866
01:37:33,720 --> 01:37:35,800
Speaker 1: new people to find you, whatever it might be. But

1867
01:37:35,920 --> 01:37:39,639
Speaker 1: a lot of people felt uncomfortable. But what I loved

1868
01:37:39,640 --> 01:37:42,519
Speaker 1: today is that a lot stayed. There were many that

1869
01:37:42,560 --> 01:37:45,599
Speaker 1: felt uncomfortable, but they stayed. There were very few that

1870
01:37:45,640 --> 01:37:49,040
Speaker 1: sort of declared their departure. She's always lovely when people

1871
01:37:49,080 --> 01:37:57,000
Speaker 1: announced that they're unfollowing, But I love that. Actually, there

1872
01:37:57,000 --> 01:37:59,720
Speaker 1: were so many people that, even in the discomfort, they

1873
01:38:00,120 --> 01:38:03,280
Speaker 1: day and they listened and they got what they needed.

1874
01:38:03,400 --> 01:38:08,479
Speaker 1: And that's where, again, I really choose to focus get

1875
01:38:08,560 --> 01:38:11,080
Speaker 1: on the people that didn't allow the cognitive dissonance to

1876
01:38:11,120 --> 01:38:14,240
Speaker 1: sort of make them reject and cancel and discard and

1877
01:38:15,000 --> 01:38:18,559
Speaker 1: devalue everything they had got from you for however many

1878
01:38:18,640 --> 01:38:21,759
Speaker 1: years or however many episodes. People that chose to be like, Okay,

1879
01:38:21,800 --> 01:38:23,960
Speaker 1: I don't quite like this, I don't get it, but

1880
01:38:24,000 --> 01:38:26,480
Speaker 1: I'm going to stay. Yeah, you know, And I think

1881
01:38:26,520 --> 01:38:28,880
Speaker 1: to me, that's the most beautiful part of all of this.

1882
01:38:29,439 --> 01:38:31,439
Speaker 1: You get to be uncomfortable, you maybe get to have

1883
01:38:31,479 --> 01:38:32,040
Speaker 1: a little.

1884
01:38:31,840 --> 01:38:34,000
Speaker 2: Strap, but you stay.

1885
01:38:34,520 --> 01:38:37,800
Speaker 1: You stay and you find out why you feel that uncomfortable,

1886
01:38:37,840 --> 01:38:40,720
Speaker 1: and you repair because it's conflict.

1887
01:38:40,840 --> 01:38:41,920
Speaker 2: You need to repair.

1888
01:38:42,320 --> 01:38:44,519
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean you accept, doesn't mean we go to

1889
01:38:44,960 --> 01:38:48,120
Speaker 1: those extremes. Well what if it's no, We're talking about

1890
01:38:48,160 --> 01:38:52,800
Speaker 1: the common sense, everyday interactions of discomfort and a wild

1891
01:38:52,920 --> 01:38:55,920
Speaker 1: view that kind of pushes back against your own. You

1892
01:38:55,960 --> 01:38:58,120
Speaker 1: get to stay and you get to repair, if not

1893
01:38:58,200 --> 01:38:59,640
Speaker 1: with the other person, with yourself.

1894
01:39:00,439 --> 01:39:06,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, so so beautiful and fully agreed. But first, here's

1895
01:39:06,000 --> 01:39:08,719
Speaker 4: a quick word from the brands that support the show.

1896
01:39:09,800 --> 01:39:12,599
Speaker 4: All right, thank you to our sponsors. Now let's dive

1897
01:39:12,680 --> 01:39:16,120
Speaker 4: back in. That's what makes me believe the work is happening. Yeah,

1898
01:39:16,200 --> 01:39:18,760
Speaker 4: when we can sit in the discomfort and when we

1899
01:39:18,800 --> 01:39:23,040
Speaker 4: can look beyond. Also, unsaid cliches like I remember, I've

1900
01:39:23,120 --> 01:39:27,559
Speaker 4: I've never been a proponent of the old cliche of

1901
01:39:27,800 --> 01:39:31,920
Speaker 4: money doesn't buy happiness. I've never written about in books,

1902
01:39:32,560 --> 01:39:35,000
Speaker 4: I've never spoken about it. I'm never like, hey, you

1903
01:39:35,000 --> 01:39:37,639
Speaker 4: should never achieve something like That's not who I am,

1904
01:39:37,680 --> 01:39:42,080
Speaker 4: that's not even my thought process, but sometimes the background

1905
01:39:42,120 --> 01:39:45,080
Speaker 4: a monk. People assume that's what you believe, and it's

1906
01:39:45,080 --> 01:39:47,200
Speaker 4: so funny. I've never said it, but it's an assumption.

1907
01:39:47,600 --> 01:39:50,479
Speaker 4: I've never said it. It doesn't exist like I've never

1908
01:39:50,560 --> 01:39:53,280
Speaker 4: said that, because I actually believe that people need to

1909
01:39:53,360 --> 01:39:55,559
Speaker 4: change their relationship with money. They need to be more

1910
01:39:55,600 --> 01:39:57,320
Speaker 4: abundant with it. And that's not just money, it's just

1911
01:39:57,320 --> 01:39:59,840
Speaker 4: one thing, but whatever else it may be. I don't

1912
01:40:00,080 --> 01:40:04,520
Speaker 4: leave a simple life and an ambitious life are incongruent.

1913
01:40:05,160 --> 01:40:11,680
Speaker 4: I don't believe that a minimalist life and extravagance are incongruence.

1914
01:40:12,160 --> 01:40:13,200
Speaker 3: I don't believe those.

1915
01:40:14,560 --> 01:40:17,720
Speaker 4: I actually believe that the paradox is where the magic is.

1916
01:40:18,200 --> 01:40:20,879
Speaker 4: I actually believe that I was saying to someone yesterday,

1917
01:40:20,880 --> 01:40:24,599
Speaker 4: you need the perfect amount of anxiety and the perfect

1918
01:40:24,600 --> 01:40:27,439
Speaker 4: amount of inspiration to win. You can't have a life

1919
01:40:27,680 --> 01:40:29,519
Speaker 4: just of inspiration, and you can't have a life just

1920
01:40:29,560 --> 01:40:33,360
Speaker 4: of anxiety. And so even in those the paradox is

1921
01:40:33,400 --> 01:40:35,360
Speaker 4: where you win because you need a bit of pressure

1922
01:40:35,640 --> 01:40:37,080
Speaker 4: and then you need a bit of purpose, and you

1923
01:40:37,080 --> 01:40:39,880
Speaker 4: need both. If you just had purpose, it wouldn't work.

1924
01:40:40,280 --> 01:40:44,479
Speaker 4: It needs both. And so similarly, I think we draw

1925
01:40:45,000 --> 01:40:49,360
Speaker 4: from these old cliches and these old traditions and old

1926
01:40:49,439 --> 01:40:53,599
Speaker 4: belief systems and project them into the new world. And

1927
01:40:54,280 --> 01:40:57,640
Speaker 4: I feel like that limits us from allowing ourselves to

1928
01:40:57,640 --> 01:40:59,400
Speaker 4: grow and others to grow, because we do the same

1929
01:40:59,400 --> 01:41:01,479
Speaker 4: to ourselves. Where it's like no, no, no, But you've

1930
01:41:01,479 --> 01:41:04,200
Speaker 4: always been a simple person. And this really hit me

1931
01:41:04,320 --> 01:41:08,120
Speaker 4: when I heard this, this statement of like how in

1932
01:41:08,160 --> 01:41:11,000
Speaker 4: the Bible it says the common quote that's always given

1933
01:41:11,120 --> 01:41:13,679
Speaker 4: is money is the root of all evil, but actually

1934
01:41:13,720 --> 01:41:15,760
Speaker 4: the original quote is that love of money is the

1935
01:41:15,840 --> 01:41:18,120
Speaker 4: root of all evil. Oh wow, And that is such

1936
01:41:18,160 --> 01:41:22,479
Speaker 4: a the context, the context. Wow, it's such a different

1937
01:41:23,240 --> 01:41:26,040
Speaker 4: way of looking at it. And I was like, wow, Like,

1938
01:41:26,160 --> 01:41:29,479
Speaker 4: we have propagated, not and forget the difference. We have

1939
01:41:29,560 --> 01:41:35,360
Speaker 4: broadcast and and propagated false information as correct and not

1940
01:41:35,400 --> 01:41:39,240
Speaker 4: even false. Incomplete information is a better word, incomplete information,

1941
01:41:40,280 --> 01:41:42,720
Speaker 4: and it's been broadcasted, and that's what we've all lived by.

1942
01:41:42,720 --> 01:41:44,080
Speaker 4: And all of a sudden, when you zoom out and

1943
01:41:44,120 --> 01:41:46,639
Speaker 4: look at context, you're like, wait a minute, that's actually

1944
01:41:46,640 --> 01:41:49,679
Speaker 4: a totally different theme. But we've all built our entire

1945
01:41:49,800 --> 01:41:53,320
Speaker 4: mindset on an incomplete version of the truth.

1946
01:41:53,439 --> 01:41:56,760
Speaker 1: If that isn't a representation of so much of what

1947
01:41:56,800 --> 01:42:00,519
Speaker 1: we see today? And immediately I thought, in bringing it

1948
01:42:00,560 --> 01:42:02,840
Speaker 1: back to the personal, it makes me want to get

1949
01:42:02,880 --> 01:42:06,839
Speaker 1: curious about where in my life am I living according

1950
01:42:06,840 --> 01:42:10,720
Speaker 1: to an incorrect truth, or even a truth that I

1951
01:42:10,800 --> 01:42:16,120
Speaker 1: didn't choose. Yeah, that's so Yeah, a truth that I

1952
01:42:16,160 --> 01:42:20,040
Speaker 1: didn't actually choose. Because I often think about how many

1953
01:42:20,160 --> 01:42:24,519
Speaker 1: absolutes we have on our identity that maybe you didn't

1954
01:42:24,560 --> 01:42:27,000
Speaker 1: even choose. Maybe they were chosen for you by a parent,

1955
01:42:27,360 --> 01:42:29,720
Speaker 1: chosen for you by an audience. Because I'm this, I

1956
01:42:29,720 --> 01:42:32,720
Speaker 1: shouldn't speak about that, because I've been writing about this.

1957
01:42:32,920 --> 01:42:35,960
Speaker 1: I can't pivot into so many of these things that

1958
01:42:36,000 --> 01:42:38,760
Speaker 1: we decide to actual fact, even things that we think

1959
01:42:38,840 --> 01:42:39,439
Speaker 1: we don't like.

1960
01:42:39,800 --> 01:42:42,200
Speaker 2: I don't really like this much. I don't really like hiking.

1961
01:42:42,320 --> 01:42:44,480
Speaker 2: Have you been hiking?

1962
01:42:44,640 --> 01:42:47,960
Speaker 1: You know? It's some things that are kind of seemingly obvious,

1963
01:42:48,000 --> 01:42:50,120
Speaker 1: but when you pause, you think, oh my, when did

1964
01:42:50,160 --> 01:42:51,000
Speaker 1: I decide that?

1965
01:42:51,600 --> 01:42:53,280
Speaker 2: Or who decided that for me?

1966
01:42:54,200 --> 01:42:57,360
Speaker 1: That I'm supposed to have this opinion because of my identity,

1967
01:42:57,600 --> 01:43:01,280
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to wear this. Beginning, when I was talking

1968
01:43:01,280 --> 01:43:06,000
Speaker 1: about expression, I might have spoken about kind of what

1969
01:43:06,080 --> 01:43:09,000
Speaker 1: you might wear because I find I like to bring

1970
01:43:09,000 --> 01:43:11,439
Speaker 1: all of this kind of to the every day, even

1971
01:43:11,479 --> 01:43:14,120
Speaker 1: what you adorn your body with. It can show you

1972
01:43:14,160 --> 01:43:17,200
Speaker 1: what you believe you should do and you shouldn't do,

1973
01:43:17,439 --> 01:43:19,759
Speaker 1: what you're allowed to do, and what you can't because

1974
01:43:19,760 --> 01:43:21,799
Speaker 1: of your age, because of who you are. The colors,

1975
01:43:22,040 --> 01:43:24,680
Speaker 1: Oh this is too bright, It'll be who told you?

1976
01:43:24,800 --> 01:43:25,400
Speaker 2: Why?

1977
01:43:25,840 --> 01:43:28,439
Speaker 1: You know? There's so many little moments where you get

1978
01:43:28,439 --> 01:43:31,679
Speaker 1: to say, where am I kind of being, not even

1979
01:43:31,760 --> 01:43:35,400
Speaker 1: just out of integrity, but censoring my expression, not even

1980
01:43:35,439 --> 01:43:37,120
Speaker 1: just what I say. I think we tend to think

1981
01:43:37,160 --> 01:43:40,080
Speaker 1: self cenship is just about what you're saying, it's actually

1982
01:43:40,160 --> 01:43:40,800
Speaker 1: who you're being.

1983
01:43:41,120 --> 01:43:42,600
Speaker 2: It could be in your body language.

1984
01:43:42,720 --> 01:43:44,840
Speaker 1: When you walk into a room and you kind of

1985
01:43:44,960 --> 01:43:48,839
Speaker 1: just slouch a little bit, you make yourself invisible, whereas

1986
01:43:48,840 --> 01:43:50,760
Speaker 1: if you were to just put your shoulders back, even

1987
01:43:50,800 --> 01:43:52,600
Speaker 1: just a little bit, even just your chin up just

1988
01:43:52,600 --> 01:43:55,760
Speaker 1: so it communicates just a very different thing. But there's

1989
01:43:55,800 --> 01:43:59,639
Speaker 1: a different vulnerability to it because it's visibility. It's actually

1990
01:43:59,680 --> 01:44:02,200
Speaker 1: being a certain in your body.

1991
01:44:01,840 --> 01:44:03,400
Speaker 3: Right, and that's vulnerable too.

1992
01:44:03,600 --> 01:44:06,719
Speaker 4: It's so fu Yeah, whereas people see that as confidence

1993
01:44:06,760 --> 01:44:09,759
Speaker 4: or arrogance, it's not seen as vulnerability. Because we've created

1994
01:44:09,800 --> 01:44:15,120
Speaker 4: these outer shells of what qualities look like. We've created

1995
01:44:15,160 --> 01:44:20,760
Speaker 4: these external avatars and embodiments of what humility should look like,

1996
01:44:21,439 --> 01:44:25,479
Speaker 4: or what arrogance looks like, or what good character looks like.

1997
01:44:26,000 --> 01:44:29,280
Speaker 4: And it's like, but rarely is it that obvious? Like,

1998
01:44:29,479 --> 01:44:33,640
Speaker 4: rarely can you You can't see someone's heart, Like you

1999
01:44:33,680 --> 01:44:38,720
Speaker 4: can't see someone's soul. You're not seeing someone's genuineness or

2000
01:44:38,760 --> 01:44:42,880
Speaker 4: sincerity through a snapshot of their life. I always think

2001
01:44:42,880 --> 01:44:45,400
Speaker 4: about this example of if you were running relate to

2002
01:44:45,439 --> 01:44:48,320
Speaker 4: the movie theater and you walked into maybe even the

2003
01:44:48,360 --> 01:44:52,080
Speaker 4: wrong screen, you might think that the hero is the villain,

2004
01:44:52,080 --> 01:44:54,680
Speaker 4: and the villain is the how do you know? I

2005
01:44:54,720 --> 01:44:57,960
Speaker 4: remember there was this, I think it actually was Yeah,

2006
01:44:58,000 --> 01:45:00,920
Speaker 4: And it's like, how how do you know who the

2007
01:45:01,000 --> 01:45:01,680
Speaker 4: character is?

2008
01:45:01,840 --> 01:45:02,280
Speaker 1: Yeah?

2009
01:45:02,320 --> 01:45:05,320
Speaker 4: Because of one snapshot of their life? And I think

2010
01:45:05,360 --> 01:45:07,640
Speaker 4: cancel culture and so much of it is based on

2011
01:45:07,840 --> 01:45:11,720
Speaker 4: this idea of here's a snapshot of this person. I'm

2012
01:45:11,720 --> 01:45:13,240
Speaker 4: not going to give you the full story in the

2013
01:45:13,240 --> 01:45:13,839
Speaker 4: full picture.

2014
01:45:13,960 --> 01:45:15,759
Speaker 1: It reminds me of when I was doing this training

2015
01:45:15,800 --> 01:45:17,400
Speaker 1: and there was a photo. It was it was just

2016
01:45:17,439 --> 01:45:20,439
Speaker 1: about that. It was about context essentially, where there's a

2017
01:45:20,439 --> 01:45:23,240
Speaker 1: photo of a woman on the floor and a man

2018
01:45:23,360 --> 01:45:26,440
Speaker 1: sort of standing up with his hand there, and immediately

2019
01:45:26,520 --> 01:45:29,120
Speaker 1: you think that he has pushed her onto the floor.

2020
01:45:29,479 --> 01:45:32,280
Speaker 1: But then they widened the photo and you sort of

2021
01:45:32,320 --> 01:45:34,559
Speaker 1: see that she had tripped and she had fallen and

2022
01:45:34,600 --> 01:45:37,400
Speaker 1: he was actually helping her up. And reminds me of

2023
01:45:37,600 --> 01:45:40,640
Speaker 1: exactly that. You know, we see an image or a

2024
01:45:40,720 --> 01:45:44,559
Speaker 1: moment and we create an entire story, or we see

2025
01:45:44,960 --> 01:45:47,800
Speaker 1: a subtle expression on our partner's face and we create

2026
01:45:47,840 --> 01:45:50,680
Speaker 1: a story about what they mean. They're upset with us,

2027
01:45:50,760 --> 01:45:53,439
Speaker 1: or maybe they don't want to do something. We're like, yeah,

2028
01:45:53,479 --> 01:45:54,320
Speaker 1: without even asking.

2029
01:45:55,360 --> 01:45:58,480
Speaker 4: That's and that's where the I think that's the perspective

2030
01:45:58,520 --> 01:46:01,240
Speaker 4: is so much of our perspectives built from one narrative.

2031
01:46:01,960 --> 01:46:04,719
Speaker 4: I think that's the point that our understanding is about

2032
01:46:04,760 --> 01:46:08,200
Speaker 4: people beliefs, what's happening in the world are all generally

2033
01:46:08,240 --> 01:46:11,760
Speaker 4: built from one narrative. Yes, So what I always ask

2034
01:46:11,760 --> 01:46:13,559
Speaker 4: people to do is reflect on, like, what would it

2035
01:46:13,600 --> 01:46:17,240
Speaker 4: feel like if you were judged on your worst moment,

2036
01:46:18,160 --> 01:46:19,680
Speaker 4: What would it feel like if you had judged on

2037
01:46:19,720 --> 01:46:23,000
Speaker 4: your worst day, And what would it feel like if

2038
01:46:23,080 --> 01:46:27,439
Speaker 4: you could never ever come back from that? Because you'd

2039
01:46:27,439 --> 01:46:32,280
Speaker 4: be canceled for it. And what did help you become accountable?

2040
01:46:32,760 --> 01:46:36,040
Speaker 4: What has helped you become responsible? What has helped you

2041
01:46:36,080 --> 01:46:38,720
Speaker 4: have behavior change, because we also want to take that

2042
01:46:38,760 --> 01:46:41,360
Speaker 4: into account. What has it been in the past that

2043
01:46:41,520 --> 01:46:43,439
Speaker 4: is really encourage you to go, you know what, I'm

2044
01:46:43,439 --> 01:46:46,479
Speaker 4: going to be better, I'm going to change. I'm sure

2045
01:46:46,520 --> 01:46:48,880
Speaker 4: it wasn't you being told by your family member never

2046
01:46:48,920 --> 01:46:51,040
Speaker 4: come back to the house. Yes, I'm sure it wasn't

2047
01:46:51,080 --> 01:46:53,240
Speaker 4: someone saying to you like, don't ever come back here

2048
01:46:53,360 --> 01:46:56,840
Speaker 4: and you're not wanted here. Reflect on that and then

2049
01:46:56,880 --> 01:47:01,599
Speaker 4: also reflect on just that negative negativity bias is so strong.

2050
01:47:01,640 --> 01:47:03,840
Speaker 4: And I will to ask you two questions, not that

2051
01:47:03,880 --> 01:47:05,760
Speaker 4: I think we have an answered or maybe we have,

2052
01:47:05,840 --> 01:47:08,519
Speaker 4: but I think they're important to ask because I see

2053
01:47:08,560 --> 01:47:11,960
Speaker 4: them being what people are thinking about. So two questions.

2054
01:47:12,720 --> 01:47:16,839
Speaker 4: The first is when is it okay to cancel someone?

2055
01:47:18,080 --> 01:47:21,719
Speaker 4: And second question, is there anyone who doesn't deserve grace?

2056
01:47:22,200 --> 01:47:26,640
Speaker 1: I will answer that from my current definition of cancelation,

2057
01:47:27,240 --> 01:47:33,320
Speaker 1: which is exile deletion. It implies that there is no rehabilitation.

2058
01:47:33,800 --> 01:47:38,559
Speaker 1: It also presupposes that people cannot change. Ever, so by

2059
01:47:38,640 --> 01:47:41,360
Speaker 1: virtue of those things and me actually believing that it's

2060
01:47:41,400 --> 01:47:47,080
Speaker 1: possible to transform me believing that rehabilitation is very important

2061
01:47:47,120 --> 01:47:49,760
Speaker 1: because it's the only way people can actually integrate that

2062
01:47:49,920 --> 01:47:53,559
Speaker 1: shadow that we're punishing them for. So I don't believe.

2063
01:47:53,680 --> 01:47:56,120
Speaker 1: I don't believe that to be true at all. However,

2064
01:47:56,760 --> 01:48:00,559
Speaker 1: I think we can address the harm that has been caused,

2065
01:48:01,080 --> 01:48:03,320
Speaker 1: and I think we have to give the person, whether

2066
01:48:03,360 --> 01:48:06,559
Speaker 1: we like it or not, the grace. And grace does

2067
01:48:06,600 --> 01:48:09,599
Speaker 1: not mean acceptance of what has been done. It just doesn't.

2068
01:48:09,640 --> 01:48:12,680
Speaker 1: Grace means I'm going to humanize you so I can understand,

2069
01:48:13,080 --> 01:48:15,920
Speaker 1: and in understanding, I'm able to give a solution or

2070
01:48:15,960 --> 01:48:19,720
Speaker 1: give myself a solution and peace that is actually sustainable

2071
01:48:20,280 --> 01:48:24,920
Speaker 1: instead of believing that you have to be punished for

2072
01:48:25,000 --> 01:48:27,400
Speaker 1: the rest of your life. Again that snapshot in time.

2073
01:48:27,439 --> 01:48:30,360
Speaker 1: And I know that what I'm saying is very difficult

2074
01:48:30,439 --> 01:48:32,800
Speaker 1: because it can be applied to so many things. But

2075
01:48:32,880 --> 01:48:35,760
Speaker 1: I encourage you to use common sense. I encourage you

2076
01:48:35,800 --> 01:48:39,479
Speaker 1: to use discernment, and I also think it's okay to

2077
01:48:39,560 --> 01:48:42,200
Speaker 1: have your convictions where you can't be moved. Say, you

2078
01:48:42,240 --> 01:48:44,519
Speaker 1: know what, I could be understanding around this, but I'm

2079
01:48:44,520 --> 01:48:46,880
Speaker 1: going to choose to stay in this conviction. I think

2080
01:48:46,920 --> 01:48:48,599
Speaker 1: we get to do that when it comes to things

2081
01:48:48,640 --> 01:48:51,640
Speaker 1: like abuse, when it comes to human rights, when it

2082
01:48:51,640 --> 01:48:54,880
Speaker 1: comes to things that are just so disturbing and unfathomable,

2083
01:48:55,400 --> 01:48:57,360
Speaker 1: I have to make peace with the fact that people

2084
01:48:57,400 --> 01:49:00,600
Speaker 1: will deal with it how they wish to, speaking to

2085
01:49:00,680 --> 01:49:03,640
Speaker 1: that middle that exists for so many of us, and

2086
01:49:03,680 --> 01:49:06,559
Speaker 1: I believe that grace, even if we're so uncomfortable, is

2087
01:49:06,600 --> 01:49:08,760
Speaker 1: the only way you can understand, and that doesn't mean

2088
01:49:08,800 --> 01:49:12,639
Speaker 1: you accept. So I think that kind of it unswers

2089
01:49:12,680 --> 01:49:13,519
Speaker 1: both in different ways.

2090
01:49:13,560 --> 01:49:18,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I fully agree with you, and I'm glad

2091
01:49:18,160 --> 01:49:19,680
Speaker 4: I asked it because I was wanting to get that

2092
01:49:19,760 --> 01:49:23,519
Speaker 4: kind of like, yeah, the encapsulated thought process almost of

2093
01:49:23,520 --> 01:49:25,680
Speaker 4: the belief system, and it's good to hear it that

2094
01:49:25,760 --> 01:49:29,919
Speaker 4: way because I agree with you. I think that humans

2095
01:49:30,000 --> 01:49:34,320
Speaker 4: have amazing ability to transform and given the opportunity. I

2096
01:49:34,360 --> 01:49:39,400
Speaker 4: also think that so much of the culture today writes

2097
01:49:39,439 --> 01:49:45,200
Speaker 4: people off over very little information, inaccurate, incomplete information, or

2098
01:49:46,200 --> 01:49:50,679
Speaker 4: misrepresented information, like it's not even as clear, and also

2099
01:49:50,760 --> 01:49:53,519
Speaker 4: in not understanding what you what someone was even trying

2100
01:49:53,560 --> 01:49:56,320
Speaker 4: to say in the first place, and so it's coming

2101
01:49:56,320 --> 01:50:02,840
Speaker 4: from such an uneducated Yes, yes, often and like you said,

2102
01:50:02,880 --> 01:50:05,160
Speaker 4: going back to where we started, it's what we do

2103
01:50:05,240 --> 01:50:05,799
Speaker 4: to ourselves.

2104
01:50:05,840 --> 01:50:07,400
Speaker 2: It's what we do to all of it.

2105
01:50:08,479 --> 01:50:11,639
Speaker 1: If you didn't beat yourself up so much or shame

2106
01:50:11,680 --> 01:50:14,160
Speaker 1: yourself often in unconscious ways. By the way, because I

2107
01:50:14,200 --> 01:50:17,479
Speaker 1: think so many people again, we have so many beliefs

2108
01:50:17,520 --> 01:50:19,759
Speaker 1: about who we are, what we stand for, et cetera.

2109
01:50:19,840 --> 01:50:24,640
Speaker 1: But our actions, especially our default actions and default responses,

2110
01:50:24,680 --> 01:50:27,240
Speaker 1: will show us what we're really working with underneath.

2111
01:50:27,760 --> 01:50:30,120
Speaker 2: But a lot of us do live in shame.

2112
01:50:30,520 --> 01:50:33,519
Speaker 1: A lot of us are very embarrassed about some of

2113
01:50:33,560 --> 01:50:36,200
Speaker 1: the things that we have done and said the people

2114
01:50:36,280 --> 01:50:38,680
Speaker 1: that we were in the past. A lot of us

2115
01:50:38,720 --> 01:50:41,000
Speaker 1: have faced with our contradictions. We don't know what to

2116
01:50:41,040 --> 01:50:44,320
Speaker 1: do with them because we have we live according to labels,

2117
01:50:44,560 --> 01:50:48,519
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's ethnic labels, political labels, identity based labels.

2118
01:50:48,840 --> 01:50:51,280
Speaker 1: So you believe that because I'm this label, I shouldn't

2119
01:50:51,320 --> 01:50:53,080
Speaker 1: think in this way, I shouldn't speak in this way.

2120
01:50:53,120 --> 01:50:55,880
Speaker 1: Why do I kind of like this person? So you're

2121
01:50:56,000 --> 01:50:58,640
Speaker 1: you're always grappling with so many things, But what do

2122
01:50:58,640 --> 01:51:01,439
Speaker 1: you do? You just shove them down and just hope

2123
01:51:01,439 --> 01:51:04,840
Speaker 1: that no one you being no one the first, no one,

2124
01:51:04,960 --> 01:51:07,880
Speaker 1: no one ever discovers them finds them, but they have

2125
01:51:07,960 --> 01:51:11,519
Speaker 1: to express themselves somehow, and that creates more shame. So

2126
01:51:11,560 --> 01:51:13,680
Speaker 1: I think because we're working with so much shame when

2127
01:51:13,760 --> 01:51:17,719
Speaker 1: we're not willing to do kind of the self inquiry

2128
01:51:17,800 --> 01:51:21,640
Speaker 1: because it's not that comfortable, we just don't have the

2129
01:51:21,720 --> 01:51:24,320
Speaker 1: capacity to be graceful with anyone else.

2130
01:51:24,400 --> 01:51:25,120
Speaker 2: We just don't.

2131
01:51:25,360 --> 01:51:27,880
Speaker 1: Whereas when you look at even just one area of

2132
01:51:28,000 --> 01:51:30,400
Speaker 1: your own gross stuff, the kind of stuff that you're like,

2133
01:51:33,360 --> 01:51:35,559
Speaker 1: when you spot it in someone else, you're able to

2134
01:51:35,600 --> 01:51:38,080
Speaker 1: be a little bit more understanding. You can go the

2135
01:51:38,080 --> 01:51:40,800
Speaker 1: way of being off rejecting it because you're not ready

2136
01:51:40,800 --> 01:51:44,560
Speaker 1: to face yours. But if you can face yours, you'll

2137
01:51:44,640 --> 01:51:46,640
Speaker 1: be willing to kind of dance and the grays a

2138
01:51:46,640 --> 01:51:50,320
Speaker 1: little bit more. Yeah, Or you just wouldn't participate. You

2139
01:51:50,400 --> 01:51:52,600
Speaker 1: might not say or do anything, but you would not

2140
01:51:52,880 --> 01:51:57,280
Speaker 1: participate in the sort of cancelation and takedown of that

2141
01:51:57,439 --> 01:52:00,439
Speaker 1: individual in the same way you would think there may

2142
01:52:00,479 --> 01:52:04,680
Speaker 1: be other methods for accountability and personal responsibility, but it

2143
01:52:04,840 --> 01:52:07,400
Speaker 1: just wouldn't be in line with dehumanization.

2144
01:52:08,000 --> 01:52:08,760
Speaker 2: It just wouldn't be.

2145
01:52:09,040 --> 01:52:11,479
Speaker 4: And I think, you know, we get there, Africa, because

2146
01:52:11,720 --> 01:52:14,679
Speaker 4: I think sometimes people feel they've been so forgiving, they've.

2147
01:52:14,520 --> 01:52:15,600
Speaker 3: Been so graceful.

2148
01:52:15,880 --> 01:52:19,280
Speaker 4: Yes, they've given so much grace and it's been so exploited.

2149
01:52:19,520 --> 01:52:23,200
Speaker 4: Yes that now they're so scared of giving that.

2150
01:52:23,520 --> 01:52:26,440
Speaker 1: But was that grace or did you just not have boundaries?

2151
01:52:27,280 --> 01:52:30,160
Speaker 1: Because there is a difference. You get to be graceful

2152
01:52:30,160 --> 01:52:32,680
Speaker 1: and still have boundaries. You get to say again, you

2153
01:52:32,720 --> 01:52:34,719
Speaker 1: get to say I understand, but I will not accept.

2154
01:52:35,080 --> 01:52:38,720
Speaker 1: Some of us think grace is being passive or fawning. Yes,

2155
01:52:39,320 --> 01:52:42,280
Speaker 1: but that's not that's not grace. Grace is still very strong,

2156
01:52:42,400 --> 01:52:45,640
Speaker 1: it's convicted. Grace says no, this doesn't work for me.

2157
01:52:45,720 --> 01:52:48,679
Speaker 1: I don't agree with that. But your heart is open.

2158
01:52:49,960 --> 01:52:51,760
Speaker 1: So grace is not having no boundaries.

2159
01:52:52,960 --> 01:52:54,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Now we have to define these things.

2160
01:52:55,840 --> 01:52:58,639
Speaker 4: Yes, these words have such Again, they have their own

2161
01:52:58,680 --> 01:53:01,920
Speaker 4: connotations and bagging. And I think grace feels like this,

2162
01:53:02,160 --> 01:53:06,720
Speaker 4: all merciful, all encompassing feeling of just no matter what

2163
01:53:06,760 --> 01:53:13,080
Speaker 4: you do, say that godly grace. And this again it

2164
01:53:13,080 --> 01:53:16,720
Speaker 4: comes back to the extreme conversation where we're not talking

2165
01:53:16,760 --> 01:53:17,839
Speaker 4: about grace and extremes.

2166
01:53:17,920 --> 01:53:19,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're talking about grace.

2167
01:53:19,160 --> 01:53:22,240
Speaker 1: And and even that idea, even though I'm not a

2168
01:53:22,280 --> 01:53:25,519
Speaker 1: religious person. Something I love about religion is that so

2169
01:53:25,640 --> 01:53:27,920
Speaker 1: many of them share the same threads. It's like one

2170
01:53:27,960 --> 01:53:30,960
Speaker 1: big tapestry with all the same threads. And from my understanding,

2171
01:53:31,600 --> 01:53:36,000
Speaker 1: even a loving God has boundaries. The Ten Commandments exist,

2172
01:53:36,640 --> 01:53:41,520
Speaker 1: there are sort of principles in which are the guiding systems,

2173
01:53:41,680 --> 01:53:43,920
Speaker 1: and to me, those principles are put forward in a

2174
01:53:44,040 --> 01:53:48,040
Speaker 1: very graceful way. But there's still very boundary, you know,

2175
01:53:48,080 --> 01:53:50,960
Speaker 1: there are lines, there's still a level of needing self

2176
01:53:51,000 --> 01:53:54,599
Speaker 1: discipline and control and not just a chaos, you.

2177
01:53:54,479 --> 01:53:57,439
Speaker 4: Know, absolutely absolutely. There are so many amazing chapters in

2178
01:53:57,439 --> 01:53:59,320
Speaker 4: this book. I want to name a few chapters of

2179
01:53:59,400 --> 01:54:01,120
Speaker 4: my favorite that when you get the book, I want

2180
01:54:01,160 --> 01:54:03,559
Speaker 4: you to dive into deeply. Of course, read the book

2181
01:54:03,560 --> 01:54:07,080
Speaker 4: in order, but some of your favorites. Chapter eight be

2182
01:54:07,280 --> 01:54:11,640
Speaker 4: quick to listen, slow to speak, beautifully put again Africa's

2183
01:54:12,000 --> 01:54:12,960
Speaker 4: magician with words.

2184
01:54:13,000 --> 01:54:14,280
Speaker 3: So number nine.

2185
01:54:14,360 --> 01:54:16,559
Speaker 4: I love this because we talked about it, but not

2186
01:54:16,640 --> 01:54:21,920
Speaker 4: in this language. Honest conflict or dishonest harmony, And I

2187
01:54:21,960 --> 01:54:25,280
Speaker 4: know that I'd rather live in honest conflict than dishonest harmony.

2188
01:54:25,479 --> 01:54:26,479
Speaker 3: Did you want to say something to that?

2189
01:54:26,880 --> 01:54:29,080
Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, no, I'm just giving people that if

2190
01:54:29,120 --> 01:54:34,760
Speaker 4: you want to please this perct This one is probably

2191
01:54:34,800 --> 01:54:36,920
Speaker 4: one of my favorite chapters as well. That's in there

2192
01:54:37,000 --> 01:54:40,680
Speaker 4: You Owe the Internet Nothing. Chapter four really important one

2193
01:54:40,720 --> 01:54:42,960
Speaker 4: to read with the aids that we're living in and

2194
01:54:43,080 --> 01:54:45,280
Speaker 4: chapter eleven a great one to look forward to one

2195
01:54:45,320 --> 01:54:49,120
Speaker 4: before the end, which is brave expression a price worth paying.

2196
01:54:50,320 --> 01:54:53,839
Speaker 4: And I can honestly say that in trying to bravely

2197
01:54:53,880 --> 01:54:58,360
Speaker 4: express myself, the freedom and liberation that I have felt

2198
01:54:58,440 --> 01:55:04,360
Speaker 4: internally is priceless. Despite the minority experience of the external

2199
01:55:05,000 --> 01:55:08,000
Speaker 4: the internal feeling, and I always ask myself, how will

2200
01:55:08,000 --> 01:55:10,440
Speaker 4: I feel about this at the time of death. I

2201
01:55:10,480 --> 01:55:14,200
Speaker 4: always ask myself that because that's the price worth paying

2202
01:55:14,280 --> 01:55:17,160
Speaker 4: for because at that point, I'm not going to think

2203
01:55:17,200 --> 01:55:19,760
Speaker 4: about comments, and I'm not going to think about DMS,

2204
01:55:20,120 --> 01:55:21,840
Speaker 4: and I'm not going to think about followers. I don't

2205
01:55:21,840 --> 01:55:23,480
Speaker 4: think any of us are. I don't think any of

2206
01:55:23,560 --> 01:55:25,600
Speaker 4: us in that moment are going to go, oh well,

2207
01:55:25,640 --> 01:55:28,280
Speaker 4: I wish more people agreed with me or knew who

2208
01:55:28,280 --> 01:55:31,000
Speaker 4: I was, or knew what I stood for. I don't

2209
01:55:31,000 --> 01:55:33,200
Speaker 4: think that's going to be what's going through my mind.

2210
01:55:33,520 --> 01:55:36,920
Speaker 4: It's going to be did I serve? Did I live?

2211
01:55:37,040 --> 01:55:39,360
Speaker 4: Did I allow myself to be and did I become

2212
01:55:39,440 --> 01:55:42,640
Speaker 4: all of who I felt like becoming in order to

2213
01:55:42,680 --> 01:55:46,240
Speaker 4: help and improve the lives of others and share everything

2214
01:55:46,280 --> 01:55:47,720
Speaker 4: I had to share. Those are going to be the

2215
01:55:47,800 --> 01:55:51,040
Speaker 4: questions I ask, So why not make those the questions now?

2216
01:55:51,840 --> 01:55:54,880
Speaker 4: Because I will only answer those questions if I ask

2217
01:55:54,960 --> 01:55:57,400
Speaker 4: them now. Yeah, I will only find the answers for

2218
01:55:57,440 --> 01:55:59,000
Speaker 4: the rest of my life. But if I wait till

2219
01:55:59,040 --> 01:56:01,920
Speaker 4: the time of death to ask, I'll have no time

2220
01:56:02,840 --> 01:56:03,600
Speaker 4: to answer them.

2221
01:56:03,920 --> 01:56:07,440
Speaker 2: You're going to make me cry. That was beautiful.

2222
01:56:08,160 --> 01:56:11,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, not really much more to add to that,

2223
01:56:11,800 --> 01:56:15,760
Speaker 1: to be honest, because I was just receiving everything you're saying,

2224
01:56:15,760 --> 01:56:17,920
Speaker 1: and I feel it so deeply. And it's just a

2225
01:56:17,960 --> 01:56:22,240
Speaker 1: reminder that a lot of the things that we think

2226
01:56:22,400 --> 01:56:27,360
Speaker 1: really matter, that we really just doubled down on, won't

2227
01:56:27,360 --> 01:56:29,320
Speaker 1: even matter, not even just had the time of death,

2228
01:56:29,360 --> 01:56:32,280
Speaker 1: but next week, you wouldn't even be able to remember

2229
01:56:32,320 --> 01:56:35,960
Speaker 1: the specific disagreement you were having in a comment section

2230
01:56:36,080 --> 01:56:40,640
Speaker 1: with someone, or the way you were applauding someone's downfall.

2231
01:56:40,800 --> 01:56:42,880
Speaker 1: You know, it's not going to be it's not going

2232
01:56:42,880 --> 01:56:46,360
Speaker 1: to add anything. It just takes. It takes, and it takes,

2233
01:56:46,400 --> 01:56:49,160
Speaker 1: and it takes, and it takes, and you will you

2234
01:56:49,160 --> 01:56:52,280
Speaker 1: will always feel that in that sense of being unfulfilled,

2235
01:56:52,280 --> 01:56:54,280
Speaker 1: which comes back to the thing I was saying about.

2236
01:56:54,880 --> 01:56:57,240
Speaker 1: If you are truly fulfilled and who you are as

2237
01:56:57,280 --> 01:57:01,800
Speaker 1: a person, you just would not participate in it. And

2238
01:57:01,840 --> 01:57:05,480
Speaker 1: if you did, it would feel like a huge integrity breach.

2239
01:57:06,160 --> 01:57:07,240
Speaker 1: It would immediately.

2240
01:57:07,680 --> 01:57:09,120
Speaker 2: It would so powerful.

2241
01:57:09,200 --> 01:57:11,760
Speaker 4: Africa, I hope that this is the first of many

2242
01:57:11,760 --> 01:57:15,160
Speaker 4: conversations for us. Yes, I have deeply enjoyed it online

2243
01:57:15,200 --> 01:57:18,440
Speaker 4: and offline, I hope. So we end every episode of

2244
01:57:18,440 --> 01:57:21,800
Speaker 4: On Purpose with a final five, which each question has

2245
01:57:21,840 --> 01:57:24,880
Speaker 4: to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.

2246
01:57:25,400 --> 01:57:28,680
Speaker 4: Sometimes I go off piece, but Africa broke. These are

2247
01:57:28,680 --> 01:57:31,320
Speaker 4: your final five. So the first question is what is

2248
01:57:31,360 --> 01:57:33,879
Speaker 4: the best advice you've ever heard or received?

2249
01:57:34,400 --> 01:57:37,000
Speaker 2: There is no such thing as failure, only feedback.

2250
01:57:37,960 --> 01:57:41,240
Speaker 3: I love that second question, what is the worst piece

2251
01:57:41,240 --> 01:57:42,919
Speaker 3: of advice you've ever heard or received?

2252
01:57:43,520 --> 01:57:44,200
Speaker 2: Be yourself?

2253
01:57:47,000 --> 01:57:49,600
Speaker 1: That's great because the biggest teachers that I've spoken to

2254
01:57:49,800 --> 01:57:51,760
Speaker 1: say which one, which I love?

2255
01:57:51,960 --> 01:57:52,160
Speaker 3: Yeah?

2256
01:57:52,320 --> 01:57:54,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great.

2257
01:57:53,840 --> 01:57:59,080
Speaker 4: That's question number three. How would you define your current purpose.

2258
01:57:59,280 --> 01:58:01,000
Speaker 2: Mind and tongue liberation?

2259
01:58:02,120 --> 01:58:05,320
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, that's that's my that's my soul work in

2260
01:58:05,360 --> 01:58:08,760
Speaker 1: the meantime, supporting people with mind and tongue liberation.

2261
01:58:09,360 --> 01:58:13,840
Speaker 4: And sometimes we feel that liberation is saying what we

2262
01:58:13,880 --> 01:58:14,880
Speaker 4: want when we want help.

2263
01:58:15,040 --> 01:58:16,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, no, no, yeah.

2264
01:58:16,800 --> 01:58:20,320
Speaker 1: As we've spoken about, it's about being so discerning, even

2265
01:58:20,320 --> 01:58:23,680
Speaker 1: when you're not using your tongue, knowing what you could say,

2266
01:58:24,120 --> 01:58:27,640
Speaker 1: but holding it. I think there's such a skill to

2267
01:58:27,720 --> 01:58:30,400
Speaker 1: not just communication, there's such a skill to being human.

2268
01:58:30,440 --> 01:58:34,720
Speaker 1: And I just I just find it so cool that

2269
01:58:34,800 --> 01:58:38,880
Speaker 1: we can realize something is working or not working and

2270
01:58:38,960 --> 01:58:40,800
Speaker 1: do more of it or less of it and kind

2271
01:58:40,840 --> 01:58:44,800
Speaker 1: of play every interaction. Again, I think the beauty of

2272
01:58:44,880 --> 01:58:48,000
Speaker 1: this is testing it out in the micro interactions, from

2273
01:58:48,040 --> 01:58:50,440
Speaker 1: the moment I leave the building, from the moment we

2274
01:58:50,520 --> 01:58:53,200
Speaker 1: finish and I say goodbye. Can I maintain a little

2275
01:58:53,240 --> 01:58:55,640
Speaker 1: bit more eye contact, even though eye contact can feel

2276
01:58:55,640 --> 01:58:58,840
Speaker 1: a little bit uneasy. Can I stand up straight with

2277
01:58:58,880 --> 01:59:01,320
Speaker 1: my shoulders just a little bit more. There's so many

2278
01:59:01,320 --> 01:59:04,760
Speaker 1: things you can do, And I think the mob in

2279
01:59:04,800 --> 01:59:07,840
Speaker 1: the mind is it's really important for us to befriended

2280
01:59:07,880 --> 01:59:10,680
Speaker 1: and to understand it, because then it decides what rolls

2281
01:59:10,680 --> 01:59:13,320
Speaker 1: off the tongue and what stays. So my mission, and

2282
01:59:13,400 --> 01:59:17,400
Speaker 1: my purpose is supporting myself and people with mind and

2283
01:59:17,440 --> 01:59:18,240
Speaker 1: tongue liberation.

2284
01:59:18,840 --> 01:59:19,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2285
01:59:19,000 --> 01:59:20,160
Speaker 3: I love that great answer.

2286
01:59:21,040 --> 01:59:23,560
Speaker 4: What's something that you used to value that you no

2287
01:59:23,680 --> 01:59:24,600
Speaker 4: longer value?

2288
01:59:25,240 --> 01:59:29,600
Speaker 1: Escaping and I did it specifically through alcohol and other

2289
01:59:29,680 --> 01:59:34,360
Speaker 1: drugs before I got sober. I've valued it a lot

2290
01:59:34,440 --> 01:59:36,960
Speaker 1: because I thought that was the only place outside of

2291
01:59:37,000 --> 01:59:40,000
Speaker 1: my conscious mind where I could feel safe. So I

2292
01:59:40,080 --> 01:59:43,600
Speaker 1: place so much value into it. But now I value clarity.

2293
01:59:43,800 --> 01:59:44,480
Speaker 3: It's beautiful.

2294
01:59:45,160 --> 01:59:47,120
Speaker 4: In fifth and final question, we asked this to everyone

2295
01:59:47,120 --> 01:59:49,520
Speaker 4: who's ever been on the show. If you could create

2296
01:59:49,560 --> 01:59:52,080
Speaker 4: one law that everyone in the world had to follow,

2297
01:59:52,400 --> 01:59:53,080
Speaker 4: what would it be.

2298
01:59:53,600 --> 01:59:57,200
Speaker 1: It would be that if you find yourself outside and

2299
01:59:57,240 --> 02:00:00,080
Speaker 1: you're in a space with other people, you have to

2300
02:00:00,080 --> 02:00:03,760
Speaker 1: eat one person at least once a day, a stranger

2301
02:00:03,840 --> 02:00:07,120
Speaker 1: to just say hello or to sort of recognize someone.

2302
02:00:07,160 --> 02:00:10,280
Speaker 1: Because I think something really beautiful happens when you sort

2303
02:00:10,280 --> 02:00:12,600
Speaker 1: of say hello with a stranger, whether you actually say hi,

2304
02:00:13,160 --> 02:00:16,000
Speaker 1: it's just like an acknowledgement. I think everyone has to

2305
02:00:16,040 --> 02:00:17,480
Speaker 1: do it at least once a day.

2306
02:00:17,960 --> 02:00:19,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great.

2307
02:00:19,080 --> 02:00:20,800
Speaker 3: I love that Africa broke everyone.

2308
02:00:20,840 --> 02:00:24,240
Speaker 4: In the book is called the third perspective brave expression

2309
02:00:24,360 --> 02:00:27,440
Speaker 4: in the Age of Intolerance. Go grab your copy now,

2310
02:00:27,520 --> 02:00:29,560
Speaker 4: and Africa, thank you so much for being here with me.

2311
02:00:30,400 --> 02:00:32,520
Speaker 4: So excited to deepen our friendship and get to know

2312
02:00:32,560 --> 02:00:35,080
Speaker 4: you better as well, and all the best with everything

2313
02:00:35,120 --> 02:00:37,560
Speaker 4: you're doing to bring the third perspective to everyone in

2314
02:00:37,600 --> 02:00:40,440
Speaker 4: the world, and so grateful for the work. Genuinely, and

2315
02:00:40,880 --> 02:00:42,520
Speaker 4: I loved every moment of this conversation.

2316
02:00:42,600 --> 02:00:46,240
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Thank you. This has been so special.

2317
02:00:46,320 --> 02:00:49,640
Speaker 1: I feel so inspired, so excited, but also just so

2318
02:00:49,720 --> 02:00:52,400
Speaker 1: grateful because again I've said it a couple of times,

2319
02:00:52,440 --> 02:00:56,960
Speaker 1: but this conversation and the different paths we've taken are

2320
02:00:57,720 --> 02:01:00,200
Speaker 1: really scary for a lot of people. And some people

2321
02:01:00,200 --> 02:01:02,320
Speaker 1: they might think, well, what is there to be scared about?

2322
02:01:02,800 --> 02:01:05,080
Speaker 1: But we have created a culture of fear and a

2323
02:01:05,080 --> 02:01:08,400
Speaker 1: culture of intolerance. But I'm so hopeful. I know that

2324
02:01:08,440 --> 02:01:09,960
Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff was spoken about. It's a

2325
02:01:09,960 --> 02:01:12,680
Speaker 1: bit dreary, it's a bit but I am so so

2326
02:01:13,000 --> 02:01:15,600
Speaker 1: hopeful about us as human beings and the fact that

2327
02:01:15,640 --> 02:01:16,920
Speaker 1: we can have this conversation.

2328
02:01:17,800 --> 02:01:19,600
Speaker 2: It's just so exciting and I think we get to

2329
02:01:19,680 --> 02:01:20,320
Speaker 2: laugh about it.

2330
02:01:20,320 --> 02:01:24,240
Speaker 1: It's serious, but it's really I mean, it's also again

2331
02:01:24,480 --> 02:01:26,640
Speaker 1: at the point of death, A lot of these things

2332
02:01:26,680 --> 02:01:28,840
Speaker 1: will not matter. I think we have to fight for

2333
02:01:28,880 --> 02:01:30,680
Speaker 1: our joy and I think one of the ways we

2334
02:01:30,760 --> 02:01:33,960
Speaker 1: do that is through conversations like this. So I'm just

2335
02:01:34,000 --> 02:01:35,960
Speaker 1: so grateful. I can't wait for many of them. I mean,

2336
02:01:36,000 --> 02:01:39,560
Speaker 1: we were already chatting away before we press record, and

2337
02:01:40,160 --> 02:01:43,480
Speaker 1: I'm just so so excited. Thank you for your support.

2338
02:01:43,640 --> 02:01:45,680
Speaker 1: It's priceless to me, So thank you.

2339
02:01:45,720 --> 02:01:47,080
Speaker 3: Thank you. Hey everyone.

2340
02:01:47,320 --> 02:01:50,160
Speaker 4: If you love that conversation, go and check out my

2341
02:01:50,240 --> 02:01:54,440
Speaker 4: episode with the world's leading therapist, Lorie Gottlieb, where she

2342
02:01:54,600 --> 02:01:58,560
Speaker 4: answers the biggest questions that people ask in therapy when

2343
02:01:58,560 --> 02:02:03,040
Speaker 4: it comes to love, religlationships, heartbreak, and dating. If you're

2344
02:02:03,080 --> 02:02:05,680
Speaker 4: trying to figure out that space right now, you won't

2345
02:02:05,720 --> 02:02:07,280
Speaker 4: want to miss this conversation.

2346
02:02:07,720 --> 02:02:10,480
Speaker 3: If it's a romantic relationship, hold hands.

2347
02:02:10,920 --> 02:02:14,520
Speaker 2: It's really hard to argue. It actually calms your nervous systems.

2348
02:02:14,960 --> 02:02:17,360
Speaker 3: Just hold hands as you're having the conversation.

2349
02:02:17,480 --> 02:02:18,480
Speaker 2: It's so lovely.