Speaker 1: This morning, President Trump tried to distance himself from George Papadopoulos,
Speaker 1: who served as a foreign policy adviser during Trump's campaign
Speaker 1: and whose indictment was revealed yesterday along with that of
Speaker 1: Paul Manafort, Trump's former campaign chairman, and his deputy, Rick Gates.
Speaker 1: Trump tweeted, few people knew the young, low level volunteer
Speaker 1: named George, who has already proven to be a liar.
Speaker 1: Joining us is Stephen Vladdock, professor at the University of
Speaker 1: Texas Law School. Steve After, we've gotten past the shock
Speaker 1: value of these indictments and particularly the plea agreement, what
Speaker 1: do they tell us about Special Counsel Robert Mueller's investigation? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think the real takeaway, at least for me, from
Speaker 1: yesterday's news is that this is just the beginning, um,
Speaker 1: not the end of this story. I mean, I think,
Speaker 1: you know, any thought that this was just about Paul
Speaker 1: Manaford and that his indictment was kind of end matters
Speaker 1: is put rather conclusively to rest by the Papadopoulis plea deal,
Speaker 1: both because in substance this is clearly I think a
Speaker 1: connection between the campaign and Russia, and because Papadopolis is
Speaker 1: presumably pleading in exchange for something. I mean, presumably the
Speaker 1: government was getting something out of it. The real question
Speaker 1: is what did the government get and who might next
Speaker 1: be in the crosshairs? Steve, if we we stepped back
Speaker 1: for a moment. So there was reporting over the weekend
Speaker 1: there was going to be an indictment. Um, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of speculation was going to be Paul Manafort. What
Speaker 1: that the stuff that happened yesterday? What surprised you the most? Frankly,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think everything about the Papadopolis plea deal
Speaker 1: is what surprised me. I mean, I think you know,
Speaker 1: Manafort was I think most people assume the most likely
Speaker 1: person to be indebted on Monday. Um, you know, the indictment,
Speaker 1: as the president himself when I was way to stress,
Speaker 1: is not really about the campaign. It's about a bunch
Speaker 1: of other shady financial and tax dealings. But the Papadopolis story,
Speaker 1: I think it's much closer to home, and really I
Speaker 1: think caught everybody by surprise. And so what that suggests
Speaker 1: to me is that Manafort really is a distraction here.
Speaker 1: He might be the bigger fish, right, but Papadopolis is
Speaker 1: really the bigger story. Steve. In the transcript of the
Speaker 1: plea agreement that Papadopoulis made, the government said that it
Speaker 1: would be able to prove his conduct by, among other things, emails, texts,
Speaker 1: communications via social media, Skype records, records of Internet searches,
Speaker 1: location data, and other evidence. And also they arrested him
Speaker 1: at Dula's airport and flipped him without any leaks and
Speaker 1: having all this research on him. Is that sending a
Speaker 1: message to other people in the White House? So, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think it's very much sending a message, And indeed,
Speaker 1: I think that's the release of that news time, I think, so,
Speaker 1: you know, not coincidentally, to correspond with the Manifort indictment.
Speaker 1: Is trying to send a message to the White House,
Speaker 1: to folks who might already be cooperating with Special Counsel Maller,
Speaker 1: to folks who might be thinking about it. You know.
Speaker 1: It's not only that Special Counsel Malor has gone to
Speaker 1: all of these lengths and has been so I think,
Speaker 1: quietly productive behind the scenes. Um, it's that this guy
Speaker 1: Papadopoulos was out there by all accounts for three months
Speaker 1: working on behalf of Muller in the investigation, and one
Speaker 1: can only imagine what kind of stuff he may have
Speaker 1: picked up and who else he might have implicated during
Speaker 1: those three months of cooperating with the Special counsel. Steve
Speaker 1: You Uh had a column in The Washington Post today
Speaker 1: in which he played the role of Donald Trump advisor, saying,
Speaker 1: it would be a really, really bad idea to fire
Speaker 1: Robert Mueller, but if Trump's gonna do it, he should
Speaker 1: do it now before uh there's gonna be too much backlash.
Speaker 1: I think you can correct me if I mischaracterized it, um,
Speaker 1: But let me push back on that, UM. Lindsay Graham. UH.
Speaker 1: Senator Graham came out yesterday and said if you fire
Speaker 1: as Mueller, there will be wholly hell to pay. Mike Lee, uh,
Speaker 1: senator from Utah, very conservative, agreed with that. Isn't it
Speaker 1: already too late for Donald Trump to fire Robert Mueller?
Speaker 1: So you know it very well. Maybe I think the
Speaker 1: purpose of the column was just to suggest that if
Speaker 1: it's not too late already, it's getting late soon, right,
Speaker 1: it's getting late early. And you know, I realized that
Speaker 1: there have been lots of I think positive and um
Speaker 1: correct statements of support from you said you mentioned Linda
Speaker 1: Graham and Mike Lee. Chairman Grassley, the chair of the
Speaker 1: Sensory Shary Committee, yesterday came out again in support of Mueller.
Speaker 1: I think the real question is, you know, what would
Speaker 1: Congress do beyond these public statements tisking at the president
Speaker 1: if you actually took one of these dramatic steps. You know,
Speaker 1: I hope Congress would actually show some backbone and push
Speaker 1: back more aggressively against the president. But I mean, guys,
Speaker 1: if we look at the track record to date, there
Speaker 1: have been lots of public statements like this and virtually
Speaker 1: no action to actually try to rein in what seems
Speaker 1: to be a fairly widespread consensus about the president, you know,
Speaker 1: acting inappropriately. Steve, very quickly, I just want to talk
Speaker 1: about Trump and Sarah Huckabee Sanders. You insisting that the
Speaker 1: fact that Papadopoulos was a volunteer makes a difference when
Speaker 1: Jared Kushner's, Trump's son in law, Steve Bannon, Manafort, Gates
Speaker 1: were all unpaid volunteers while running the campaign. I think
Speaker 1: Kushner still is so does that make any difference? In
Speaker 1: about thirty seconds, yeah, I mean it doesn't make any
Speaker 1: difference legally. I think they're trying to control the narrative,
Speaker 1: And I think the biggest takeaway from yesterday is that
Speaker 1: the only person who is really controlling the narrative of
Speaker 1: the story is Special Counsel Muller. So whatever they want
Speaker 1: to say about Poptopolas today, who knows what we're gonna
Speaker 1: find out tomorrow and in the days and weeks to come,
Speaker 1: both about Papadopolis and about others who might be involved.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, always great to have you on that.
Speaker 1: Stephen Vladik, Professor at the University of Texas Law School,