WEBVTT - Mueller Probe Enters New Phase After First Charges (Audio)

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<v Speaker 1>This morning, President Trump tried to distance himself from George Papadopoulos,

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<v Speaker 1>who served as a foreign policy adviser during Trump's campaign

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<v Speaker 1>and whose indictment was revealed yesterday along with that of

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<v Speaker 1>Paul Manafort, Trump's former campaign chairman, and his deputy, Rick Gates.

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<v Speaker 1>Trump tweeted, few people knew the young, low level volunteer

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<v Speaker 1>named George, who has already proven to be a liar.

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<v Speaker 1>Joining us is Stephen Vladdock, professor at the University of

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<v Speaker 1>Texas Law School. Steve After, we've gotten past the shock

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<v Speaker 1>value of these indictments and particularly the plea agreement, what

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<v Speaker 1>do they tell us about Special Counsel Robert Mueller's investigation? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I think the real takeaway, at least for me, from

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<v Speaker 1>yesterday's news is that this is just the beginning, um,

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<v Speaker 1>not the end of this story. I mean, I think,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, any thought that this was just about Paul

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<v Speaker 1>Manaford and that his indictment was kind of end matters

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<v Speaker 1>is put rather conclusively to rest by the Papadopoulis plea deal,

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<v Speaker 1>both because in substance this is clearly I think a

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<v Speaker 1>connection between the campaign and Russia, and because Papadopolis is

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<v Speaker 1>presumably pleading in exchange for something. I mean, presumably the

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<v Speaker 1>government was getting something out of it. The real question

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<v Speaker 1>is what did the government get and who might next

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<v Speaker 1>be in the crosshairs? Steve, if we we stepped back

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<v Speaker 1>for a moment. So there was reporting over the weekend

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<v Speaker 1>there was going to be an indictment. Um, there's a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of speculation was going to be Paul Manafort. What

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<v Speaker 1>that the stuff that happened yesterday? What surprised you the most? Frankly,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I think everything about the Papadopolis plea deal

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<v Speaker 1>is what surprised me. I mean, I think you know,

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<v Speaker 1>Manafort was I think most people assume the most likely

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<v Speaker 1>person to be indebted on Monday. Um, you know, the indictment,

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<v Speaker 1>as the president himself when I was way to stress,

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<v Speaker 1>is not really about the campaign. It's about a bunch

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<v Speaker 1>of other shady financial and tax dealings. But the Papadopolis story,

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's much closer to home, and really I

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<v Speaker 1>think caught everybody by surprise. And so what that suggests

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<v Speaker 1>to me is that Manafort really is a distraction here.

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<v Speaker 1>He might be the bigger fish, right, but Papadopolis is

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<v Speaker 1>really the bigger story. Steve. In the transcript of the

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<v Speaker 1>plea agreement that Papadopoulis made, the government said that it

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<v Speaker 1>would be able to prove his conduct by, among other things, emails, texts,

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<v Speaker 1>communications via social media, Skype records, records of Internet searches,

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<v Speaker 1>location data, and other evidence. And also they arrested him

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<v Speaker 1>at Dula's airport and flipped him without any leaks and

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<v Speaker 1>having all this research on him. Is that sending a

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<v Speaker 1>message to other people in the White House? So, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's very much sending a message, And indeed,

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's the release of that news time, I think, so,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, not coincidentally, to correspond with the Manifort indictment.

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<v Speaker 1>Is trying to send a message to the White House,

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<v Speaker 1>to folks who might already be cooperating with Special Counsel Maller,

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<v Speaker 1>to folks who might be thinking about it. You know.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not only that Special Counsel Malor has gone to

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<v Speaker 1>all of these lengths and has been so I think,

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<v Speaker 1>quietly productive behind the scenes. Um, it's that this guy

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<v Speaker 1>Papadopoulos was out there by all accounts for three months

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<v Speaker 1>working on behalf of Muller in the investigation, and one

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<v Speaker 1>can only imagine what kind of stuff he may have

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<v Speaker 1>picked up and who else he might have implicated during

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<v Speaker 1>those three months of cooperating with the Special counsel. Steve

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<v Speaker 1>You Uh had a column in The Washington Post today

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<v Speaker 1>in which he played the role of Donald Trump advisor, saying,

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<v Speaker 1>it would be a really, really bad idea to fire

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<v Speaker 1>Robert Mueller, but if Trump's gonna do it, he should

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<v Speaker 1>do it now before uh there's gonna be too much backlash.

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<v Speaker 1>I think you can correct me if I mischaracterized it, um,

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<v Speaker 1>But let me push back on that, UM. Lindsay Graham. UH.

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<v Speaker 1>Senator Graham came out yesterday and said if you fire

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<v Speaker 1>as Mueller, there will be wholly hell to pay. Mike Lee, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>senator from Utah, very conservative, agreed with that. Isn't it

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<v Speaker 1>already too late for Donald Trump to fire Robert Mueller?

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<v Speaker 1>So you know it very well. Maybe I think the

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<v Speaker 1>purpose of the column was just to suggest that if

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<v Speaker 1>it's not too late already, it's getting late soon, right,

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<v Speaker 1>it's getting late early. And you know, I realized that

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<v Speaker 1>there have been lots of I think positive and um

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<v Speaker 1>correct statements of support from you said you mentioned Linda

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<v Speaker 1>Graham and Mike Lee. Chairman Grassley, the chair of the

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<v Speaker 1>Sensory Shary Committee, yesterday came out again in support of Mueller.

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<v Speaker 1>I think the real question is, you know, what would

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<v Speaker 1>Congress do beyond these public statements tisking at the president

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<v Speaker 1>if you actually took one of these dramatic steps. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>I hope Congress would actually show some backbone and push

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<v Speaker 1>back more aggressively against the president. But I mean, guys,

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<v Speaker 1>if we look at the track record to date, there

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<v Speaker 1>have been lots of public statements like this and virtually

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<v Speaker 1>no action to actually try to rein in what seems

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<v Speaker 1>to be a fairly widespread consensus about the president, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>acting inappropriately. Steve, very quickly, I just want to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about Trump and Sarah Huckabee Sanders. You insisting that the

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<v Speaker 1>fact that Papadopoulos was a volunteer makes a difference when

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<v Speaker 1>Jared Kushner's, Trump's son in law, Steve Bannon, Manafort, Gates

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<v Speaker 1>were all unpaid volunteers while running the campaign. I think

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<v Speaker 1>Kushner still is so does that make any difference? In

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<v Speaker 1>about thirty seconds, yeah, I mean it doesn't make any

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<v Speaker 1>difference legally. I think they're trying to control the narrative,

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<v Speaker 1>And I think the biggest takeaway from yesterday is that

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<v Speaker 1>the only person who is really controlling the narrative of

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<v Speaker 1>the story is Special Counsel Muller. So whatever they want

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<v Speaker 1>to say about Poptopolas today, who knows what we're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>find out tomorrow and in the days and weeks to come,

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<v Speaker 1>both about Papadopolis and about others who might be involved.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks so much, always great to have you on that.

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<v Speaker 1>Stephen Vladik, Professor at the University of Texas Law School,