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Speaker 1: Hey, lady, is doctor dim here. If you like this

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Speaker 1: fm to get started.

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Speaker 2: On this week's episode of Cultivating her Space.

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Speaker 1: We're not saying that all white women are bad. What

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Speaker 1: we're saying is that inherent in this white supremacist, patriarchal society,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of negative consequences for black women

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Speaker 1: and more benefit for white women when we have these

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Speaker 1: interracial friendships.

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Speaker 2: Today's episode is sure to provide you with motivation, inspiration,

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Speaker 2: or a fresh perspective. If you have any AHA moments

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Speaker 2: or appreciate anything from this episode, please leave us a

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Speaker 2: review to let us know we're on the right track. Also,

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Speaker 2: we release episodes every Friday, so be sure to subscribe

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Speaker 2: on iTunes and visit Cultivatingherspace dot com to access our

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Speaker 2: exclusive after show and other bonus content from the Patreon tab.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Cultivating her Space, a podcast dedicated to uplifting

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Speaker 1: women like you. We're your hosts, doctor Dominique Bussard, a

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Speaker 1: college professor and psychologist.

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Speaker 2: And Terry Lomax, a techie and motivational speaker. In a

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Speaker 2: world where black women are often misrepresented and misunderstood, please

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Speaker 2: join us as we initiate authentic conversationations on everything from

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Speaker 2: five roids to fake friends, and create a safe space

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Speaker 2: where black women can just.

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Speaker 1: Be Hey, lady, it's doctor dom here from the Cultivating

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Speaker 1: her Space podcast. Are you currently a resident of the

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Speaker 1: state of California in contemplating starting your therapy journey? Well,

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Speaker 1: if so, please reach out to me at doctor Dominique

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Speaker 1: Brusard dot com. That's d R D O M I

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Speaker 1: n I q U E b R O U S

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Speaker 1: s a ar d dot com to schedule a free

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Speaker 1: fifteen minute consultation. I look forward to hearing from you.

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Speaker 1: All Right, our quote of the day get ready because

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Speaker 1: it's a good one. It's a banger. Their internalized misogyny

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Speaker 1: and often subconscious races them teaches them to use the

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Speaker 1: backs of black women as stairs they need to use

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Speaker 1: to climb closer to the top of the white male

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Speaker 1: made hierarchy. That quote comes to us from writer Savannah Worley.

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Speaker 1: Now that one was such a whopper that I definitely

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Speaker 1: need to read that one again for the folks in

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Speaker 1: the back, so that you make sure you can write

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Speaker 1: this down and tweet this quote or use it in

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Speaker 1: your emails, and we'll talk about that strategy later. Their

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Speaker 1: internalized misogyny and often subconscious racism teaches them to use

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Speaker 1: the backs of black women as stairs they need to

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Speaker 1: use to climb closer to the top of the white

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Speaker 1: male made hierarchy. Tea. Since the Savannah Worley out here

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Speaker 1: dropping some real, real, real.

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Speaker 2: Gems, dropping some gems, Okay, let me just say that

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Speaker 2: is loaded, lady. We and doing our research on this topic.

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Speaker 2: We found Savannah's Medium article online and she's on Twitter.

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Speaker 2: This is gonna be a good conversation. But y'all go

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Speaker 2: show her some love. Okay. She is writing about race,

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Speaker 2: mental health, and random stuff on Medium. Okay. Her Twitter

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Speaker 2: handle is savvy wrote that, okay, and her name on

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Speaker 2: Twitter is Savannah Tweets. Go show her some love. Her

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Speaker 2: writing is amazing and we just had to shout her

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Speaker 2: out because this quote was so powerful and we just

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Speaker 2: wanted you to show her some love. She also has

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Speaker 2: an article that is called wait for it, I Am

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Speaker 2: the proof ending my need for white validation. So also

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Speaker 2: go check that out on Medium and show her some love.

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Speaker 2: Because this is this topic right here, don it's a

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Speaker 2: loaded one. What is I mean? Should didn't ask you

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Speaker 2: what that quote means to you? Or should we just

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Speaker 2: jump in?

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Speaker 1: Just let's just jump in and let me just say that, like,

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Speaker 1: let me just shout out Savannah's articles, like one more time,

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Speaker 1: because I think that Savannah a lot of what Savannah

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Speaker 1: is speaking is something that so many of us black

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Speaker 1: women and other women of color were truly has like

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Speaker 1: really historically in this country that black women can relate to. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I know personal experience from listening to friends experiences

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Speaker 1: that this is real, right, that this unfortunately happens to

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Speaker 1: us all all all all the time.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So I mean, let's just talk about let's just

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Speaker 2: talk about our relationships I guess with white women and

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Speaker 2: our experiences and let's just go from there, I guess,

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Speaker 2: because it's it's definitely a loaded topic. And yeah, lady, Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: So let me just let me start by saying that

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Speaker 1: our experiences are based in the historical experiences of black

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Speaker 1: women and white women. Right. That savannahs quote really contextualizes

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Speaker 1: that experience from a historical perspective. Right. So, I think

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Speaker 1: about when our ancestors were brought here as enslaved people,

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Speaker 1: and I think about our relationship with white women starting there, right,

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Speaker 1: that the white woman used us as their personal assistant,

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Speaker 1: right to handle all of the household chores and duties

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Speaker 1: that they didn't want to do. That including cooking and cleaning, right,

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Speaker 1: child rearing, pool child having, having us breastfeed their children.

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Speaker 2: Mm hm.

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Speaker 1: So let's just sit with that one for a second. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: we are not good enough for most things in life yet,

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Speaker 1: and we're not smart, right, and we're not this, and

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Speaker 1: we're not that, all of these things that we are

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Speaker 1: not right. Yeah, yet our liquid gold breast milk was

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Speaker 1: good enough for their for their white babies. I'm yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you have that part right. But then I also

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Speaker 1: think about how our little black girls were used to

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Speaker 1: sleep on the feet of white women at night to

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Speaker 1: keep them warm. So while our little black girls might

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Speaker 1: be freezing cold, they are laying on top of the

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Speaker 1: white woman's feet to keep her warm at night. Right.

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Speaker 1: So that's the historical context, right, And then we also

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Speaker 1: think about how the narratives that we've been told, and

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Speaker 1: even if we think back to the movie Roots and

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Speaker 1: how Kizzy and I can't think of a woman the

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Speaker 1: white woman's name, but they were childmates, right, like they

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Speaker 1: played together, right, and then as they got older, all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, the white woman is coming to Kizzy

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Speaker 1: and telling her, Oh, guess what, Kizzie, you're my property now. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I can't even gather my words for that

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Speaker 1: shit right now, like like real. Yeah, So that's the

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Speaker 1: historical context in which we're coming from.

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Speaker 2: That's important to lay the foundation for that too, yeah. Important.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And then we fast forward right to Jim Crow

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Speaker 1: era civil rights era, and you have and don't get

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Speaker 1: me started on the simultaneous women's rights movement during this

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Speaker 1: time period right at the turn of the twentieth century,

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Speaker 1: and you have black women coming through in this movement,

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Speaker 1: but they are completely silenced because it's not really about

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Speaker 1: black women having rights. It's really about white women having

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Speaker 1: rights and having a seat at the table and getting

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Speaker 1: closer to that white male hierarchy, but they are quick

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Speaker 1: to use us like good old sojournal truth. Right, So

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Speaker 1: you listen to us speak and then you you co op,

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Speaker 1: you take, not even co op, you take our words

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Speaker 1: and use it to get what you need and completely

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Speaker 1: disregard us. Sheesh, And that shit still happens today. I'm

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Speaker 1: just saying, yes, I mean you preaching.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you just I'm about to just sit back

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Speaker 2: and I mean it's fact. No, it's the truth. And

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Speaker 2: I'm being honest. I think that ladies, you listen, we

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Speaker 2: probably all have our own experiences, right, what I mean

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Speaker 2: we do, We all have our own experiences when it

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Speaker 2: comes to how we interact with white women, white people

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Speaker 2: and all that. Right, And to be honest, this is

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Speaker 2: something that I feel like the world has just changed

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Speaker 2: so much from when we were younger. I think when

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Speaker 2: I was younger, I was just so oblivious and had

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Speaker 2: no idea about just how serious race relations were in

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Speaker 2: our country and really in the world. But growing up

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Speaker 2: in a predominantly white area, having white friends, black friends,

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Speaker 2: and Mexican friends, all kinds of, you know, diverse friends

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Speaker 2: in San Diego, because it was a pretty diverse environment

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Speaker 2: that I grew up in and then moving to the

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Speaker 2: East Coast after nine to eleven, And when I reflected

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Speaker 2: back on that time, I didn't really have meaningful relationships

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Speaker 2: with white people. And I had a few people at

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Speaker 2: church that I was friends with, but we were still kids.

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Speaker 2: And so when I think about the meaningful relationships I had,

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Speaker 2: and again the complexity, when I moved to California as

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Speaker 2: an adult and I worked in tech and in Silicon Valley,

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Speaker 2: that was when I was like reintroduced to more white people,

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Speaker 2: right based on where I come from. And so I

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Speaker 2: remember creating meaningful relationships. And I remember having a moment

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Speaker 2: probably back when things got really intense in our country

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Speaker 2: as far as the race relations and I was like, damn,

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Speaker 2: I'm reflecting. I'm like, I don't remember a time in

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Speaker 2: my life as an adult where I actually had a

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Speaker 2: meaningful relationship with white person, and it wasn't until at

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Speaker 2: this point in adulthood. And I was like, oh, that's

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Speaker 2: so interesting. I wonder. I wondered, like just just questioning,

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Speaker 2: I wonder what, you know, how this happened, what caused it.

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Speaker 2: Not a bad thing, but it's just reflecting on the

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Speaker 2: fact that this is my reality currently, and I think

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Speaker 2: that there are a few things that come up for

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Speaker 2: me personally when I think about befriending white women, right,

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Speaker 2: I think there's definitely a complexity there, and there's a

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Speaker 2: there's definitely some apprehension a lot of times just now

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Speaker 2: it's right, some apprehension. And I'm always mindful and sensitive

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Speaker 2: to the way in which they engage the colloquialisms that

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Speaker 2: they use. Right, So if I notice all of a

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Speaker 2: sudden there's like, you know, hey girl, I'm like, well,

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Speaker 2: you don't really call anyone else girl like that, right,

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Speaker 2: or homegirl, or just like random stuff that you might hear.

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Speaker 2: And I've had these experiences where someone's like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: like I love Obama and I'm like, we're not talking

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Speaker 2: about politics at all, Like that's it's weird.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: There's certain things that they might say or do where

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Speaker 2: you either might feel like you're a token or you

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Speaker 2: feel like they are not being authentic. And for me,

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Speaker 2: authenticity is key. And so when you're not being authentic

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Speaker 2: and you're just behaving in a way that you believe

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Speaker 2: is going to build a connection, I think that's where

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Speaker 2: it kind of gets. It gets murky, you know, where

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Speaker 2: you're like, yeah, I don't really I don't know what's

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Speaker 2: going on here. I don't really know about the intentions.

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Speaker 2: And so that's been my experience. Yeah, that's been my experience.

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Speaker 2: I'll leave it at that for now. What about you,

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Speaker 2: don what is your experience? You know?

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Speaker 1: I think about it, and I think that you're right,

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Speaker 1: right of this level of consciousness that we have to

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Speaker 1: have when engaging in potential friendships with white women, right.

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Speaker 1: And for me, I think about, yes, that political piece

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Speaker 1: right of like, particularly when I because I've lived most

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Speaker 1: of my life, I've lived in the South, Right, So

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Speaker 1: I think about growing up and spending most of my

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Speaker 1: life in the South, and I recognize that the South

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Speaker 1: and the Midwest are different than the East and the

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Speaker 1: West in terms of handling politics and just nuances around race, right,

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Speaker 1: in terms of it is often more overt and in

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Speaker 1: your face, whereas in the East and the West it

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Speaker 1: is more nuanced. And so you have to really be

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Speaker 1: a lot more vigilant around what your experiences are, your

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Speaker 1: interactions are, because you might miss that subtle, subconscious racism

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Speaker 1: that comes out in those in your interactions. Right. And

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Speaker 1: I think about, particularly as an adult, how in the workplace,

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Speaker 1: what those relationship dynamics look like. Because let's just be

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Speaker 1: let's just think about it. Like, as adults, most of

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Speaker 1: our a lot of our friendships get formed in the workplace, right,

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Speaker 1: And so I think about these various roles that I've

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Speaker 1: seen that I may have subconsciously found myself in and

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Speaker 1: then had to gather my consciousness and say, oh no,

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Speaker 1: I'm not doing this anymore. Right, Yeah, So I think

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Speaker 1: about how sometimes white women consciously or not expect the

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Speaker 1: black woman to be the mammy or the caretaker in

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Speaker 1: most situations, whether it's at work or in your friendships.

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Speaker 2: Right, Wait, can you define that dom if that's a

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Speaker 2: new term, because I know we did an episode about this,

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Speaker 2: but what does that actually look like?

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Speaker 1: Can mean?

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Speaker 2: In action?

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Speaker 1: So the mammy is has been characterized as often this overweight,

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Speaker 1: unattractive mother figure. Right, So let's think about it immedia, Right,

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Speaker 1: that's probably the easiest way for folks to get a

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Speaker 1: picture of what that really looks like. Right, So think

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Speaker 1: about Octavia Spencer's role in The Help. Think about any

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Speaker 1: TV show that you've watched where the white woman or

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Speaker 1: the white family has a black woman coming in and

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Speaker 1: either she is the secretary or the housekeeper or the

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Speaker 1: comedic best friend of the white woman or the white family. Right,

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Speaker 1: And if you think about what that really looks like,

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Speaker 1: then it looks like she becomes the mother figure who

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Speaker 1: is taking care of everything and fixing all the problems.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: And how that can show up also in the workplace

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Speaker 1: is some shit goes wrong and then we say, well,

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Speaker 1: we're trying to diversify, and so we bring in a

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Speaker 1: black woman in a powerful position, like a C suite position,

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Speaker 1: and expect her to clean up the shit.

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Speaker 2: Or Okay, that makes sense. That makes sense, And I'm

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Speaker 2: thinking about and I think we're probably going to dive

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Speaker 2: into this. But what that made me think about is

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Speaker 2: those instances where, like you said, some shit go down.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about twenty twenty where it's like every company

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Speaker 2: is like, oh shit, we gotta pretend like we Some

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Speaker 2: of them are genuine, but others like, oh, we pretend

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Speaker 2: we care about black people. Let's go get the one

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Speaker 2: black girl that does this one role that has nothing

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Speaker 2: to do with diversity. She's not even trained in diversity,

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Speaker 2: but oh, let's go get the black girl to go

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Speaker 2: ahead and put something together for us, like stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: Chow lady, as you're listening, I already know you know

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Speaker 1: what this is like, and you have seen it go down. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and some of you may have been put in that

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Speaker 1: position right like you were asked to lead some diversity

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Speaker 1: initiative and you haven't been trained in that. And so

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Speaker 1: now all of a sudden, they're expecting you to then

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Speaker 1: also come in and share your personal experiences so that

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Speaker 1: they can learn from your lived experience child inappropriate.

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Speaker 2: You know what, as we talk about this conversation, it

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Speaker 2: makes me think about another quote, Savannah. We quote you again, girl,

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Speaker 2: another quote from one of Savannah Savannah's articles, and what

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Speaker 2: she said was the article is called Dear White Women,

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Speaker 2: Here's why It's hard to be friends with you, And

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Speaker 2: the quote says, you might argue that women in general

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Speaker 2: behave this way towards each other, which is sad, but

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Speaker 2: within the context of relationships between white women and black women,

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Speaker 2: the effects of their toxic behavior as devastating, even life threatening.

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Speaker 2: I've had a white woman make a false report about

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Speaker 2: me to the police. I've had white men threaten violence

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Speaker 2: on me because of the words of a white woman.

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Speaker 2: I've had white women attempt to get me fired from

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Speaker 2: jobs which would have prevented me from supporting myself. Okay,

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Speaker 2: it's yeah, it's deep, and it gets real.

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Speaker 1: I find myself feeling incredibly frustrated and agitated and annoyed

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Speaker 1: and pissed off in all of those things when I

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Speaker 1: think about stuff like that, Right, when I think about

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Speaker 1: how white women will in your evaluation, will tell you, oh, Ti,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry. You know, I just want you to know

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Speaker 1: that some of the feedback we've received is that you're

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Speaker 1: difficult to work with. What does that mean that I'm

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Speaker 1: difficult to work with? Right?

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Speaker 2: And well, well, Dom, it's a little it's a little true.

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Speaker 2: Because the thing is when the black woman who's air

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Speaker 2: quotes difficult behaves in the same way that the white

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Speaker 2: male acts. He's not difficult, right, he's a bond, he's vocal,

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Speaker 2: he's outspoken, like he's he's all. The other thing is

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Speaker 2: he's confident, right, he knows what he wants. But it's

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Speaker 2: a black woman when she acts that way. Yeah, yeah, no,

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Speaker 2: you're right, don This is it's definitely complex, you know,

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Speaker 2: it definitely is very very complex.

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Speaker 1: And then I also think about how it you know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes like how we have to be vigilant, right, because

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Speaker 1: sometimes we end up in these token relationships, right, where

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Speaker 1: the white woman befriends us so that they can assuage

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Speaker 1: their white guilt and they can say, no, I'm not

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Speaker 1: racist because I have this black friend, right, And then

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Speaker 1: all the black folks so looking at you, like, cis

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Speaker 1: you friends with her? Like?

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Speaker 2: What?

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Speaker 1: Like? Why? Like you know she's racist? Why are you

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Speaker 1: friends with her? Not realizing that sometimes there's a lot

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Speaker 1: more layers tied into why you may be associating with

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Speaker 1: this particular white woman. Right. She may be married to

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Speaker 1: the family, it may be a work requirement. You know,

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Speaker 1: there may be a host of reasons why you are

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Speaker 1: associated with this particular white woman, and now you are

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Speaker 1: expected to be her token friend, and you have to

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Speaker 1: figure out what does it mean for you, what is

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Speaker 1: your reasoning, What is the advantage for you to maintain

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Speaker 1: this friendship with this white woman? Right? And I would

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Speaker 1: also like to point us to Rachel Cargel. We have

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Speaker 1: had Rachel on the show once before, and I think

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Speaker 1: that Rachel, if you follow her on Instagram, Rachel gives

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Speaker 1: lots of deep information around, specifically for white women to

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Speaker 1: understand how they can be problematic and ways in which

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Speaker 1: they can fix so correct their problematic behavior when it

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Speaker 1: comes to interacting with black women, because I think the

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Speaker 1: reality is is that, like we said, these relationships are complex, right,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I'm sure we're going to have some

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Speaker 1: listener out there that's going to say, but my white friend,

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Speaker 1: and it very well may be true that there are

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Speaker 1: very well intentioned and well meaning white women in the world, right.

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Speaker 1: I know some in my own life, right, But that

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Speaker 1: does not make them immune from messing up. That does

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Speaker 1: not make them immune from stereotyping you, putting you into

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Speaker 1: a position, a difficult position where you have to call

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Speaker 1: them out, putting you into positions where you have to

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Speaker 1: carry an extra emotional burden and do emotional labor to

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Speaker 1: correct the relationship. It doesn't prevent any of that from happening,

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Speaker 1: and they could still be a three out of four

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Speaker 1: good relationship. So I do want to make that clear

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Speaker 1: that we're not saying that all white women are bad.

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Speaker 1: What we're saying is that inherent in this white supremacist,

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Speaker 1: patriarchal society, there are a lot of negative consequences for

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Speaker 1: black women and more benefit for white women when we

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Speaker 1: have these interracial friendships.

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Speaker 2: Dom you hit the nail on the head and I

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Speaker 2: was going to say something, and I think it totally

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Speaker 2: escapes me at the moment, but it made me think about, oh,

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Speaker 2: I was going to say. How Twenty twenty I think

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Speaker 2: was a wake up call for a lot of people

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Speaker 2: when it comes to where they stood with the white

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Speaker 2: people that are in their lives. And like you said,

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Speaker 2: tapping into it if you're a white woman listening, like

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Speaker 2: tapping into Rachel's resources would be great because she does

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Speaker 2: this is her life's work, Like she does this work

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Speaker 2: where she teaches you all how to be allies. I

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Speaker 2: think for us as black women, I mean, I just yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think just protecting ourselves is really important too, because

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Speaker 2: I know for me, there were a lot of times

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Speaker 2: where if I was friends with the white person, I'm like, well,

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Speaker 2: how do they see you? Like? Am I just their

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Speaker 2: black friend? Because I'm friend your friend because of who

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Speaker 2: you are, how you show up, or because of the

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Speaker 2: colonalities that we have. But I never want to be

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Speaker 2: like the token black you know what I mean, That's

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Speaker 2: just not what I'm signing up for. So I think

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Speaker 2: understanding and having open conversations around how you navigate your friendship.

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Speaker 2: This is kind of random down. But one thing I

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Speaker 2: noticed was I was going on like a staff outing

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Speaker 2: with some white colleagues years ago, and I remember walking

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Speaker 2: around and I was just like, damn, this is so

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Speaker 2: weird to say, but like I felt in a way

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Speaker 2: that I felt safe with them because I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I know that the cops they're not gonna pop off

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Speaker 2: and act a certain way because I'm a white people

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Speaker 2: and they all play that. The cops, they just they

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Speaker 2: know how to behave when it comes to white folks,

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Speaker 2: white folks with guns, white folks in general. But if

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Speaker 2: you're black, it's like, oh you can you can get

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Speaker 2: killed for doing nothing, for breathing, you know. And so

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Speaker 2: I thought about that and just how it's just so

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Speaker 2: bizarre how the treatment across the spectrum between white people

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Speaker 2: and black people is. And so when you when you

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Speaker 2: add the friendship, it just reminds me of what Savannah

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Speaker 2: said in her quote, how their behavior can be so detrimental,

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Speaker 2: which is why this conversation needs to be had around

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Speaker 2: the complexities in the relationship, because there's so much more

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Speaker 2: at stake, Like it's so risky, you know, like a

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Speaker 2: white person calling the cops on you could be it

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Speaker 2: could be the end, you know, Yeah, And it's just

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Speaker 2: it's so important to just understand that and think about

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Speaker 2: how to protect ourselves.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I completely agree with you that it is important

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Speaker 1: for us to have that level of awareness, and but

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Speaker 1: I think also more importantly recognizing that we are enough.

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Speaker 1: Right however we show up, we are enough. And I

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Speaker 1: think knowing that piece, knowing that we are enough, recognizing

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Speaker 1: how much they like to emulate us, right, should be

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Speaker 1: proof enough if we if we're looking, if we're in

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Speaker 1: that space where we're needing validation from white folks, right,

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Speaker 1: because I want us to all be in that space

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Speaker 1: where we don't need their validation, where we just know

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Speaker 1: flat out on our own. I wake up in the morning,

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Speaker 1: I'm a black woman. I am enough, point blank period period.

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Speaker 2: Pooh, okay, go. I'm a question for you. Do you

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Speaker 2: think that if you have a white friend, do you

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Speaker 2: think that you all like it is a necessity just

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Speaker 2: for you personally? And I know you can't speak for everyone,

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Speaker 2: but do you believe that it's imperative that you all

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Speaker 2: speak about race if you all are friends, Like if

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Speaker 2: you and a white woman are friends.

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Speaker 1: Hell, yeah, that shit's gonna come up, it has to

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Speaker 1: and if it doesn't, because as a black woman, I'm

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Speaker 1: always thinking about it. Right, you have you.

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Speaker 2: Have to be like what you mean, like, that's we

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Speaker 2: got we call outside we black first. That's just right.

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Speaker 2: That's how the world sees this. I feel like that's

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Speaker 2: how we've been conditioned to be right.

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Speaker 1: And so if I have a white friend and they

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Speaker 1: don't want to talk about race, like if they find

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Speaker 1: ways to avoided and they find they're uncomfortable being the

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Speaker 1: first person to bring it up, that person can no

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Speaker 1: longer be my friend because I don't trust them. I

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Speaker 1: won't feel safe with them, because what that says to

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Speaker 1: me is that if I have to be the one

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Speaker 1: to always bring it up and either they try to

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Speaker 1: avoid it or change the subject like they're not willing

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Speaker 1: to engage, then what that says to me is that

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Speaker 1: chances are one they're saying some racist shit behind my back. Two,

431
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: if some shit goes down, they really not gonna have

432
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: my back, Like they probably gonna be the first person

433
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: to throw me under the bus to protect their own selves. Right,

434
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: that's not somebody that's a friend. So I will say

435
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: that the white women that I do have in my life.

436
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: We have had to have some difficult conversations around race.

437
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: Not saying that those conversations completely resolve things, but the

438
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: conversations had to be had, yep. And if they aren't

439
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: willing to engage in the conversation, then yeah, no you can't. Sorry,

440
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: you can't rock with doctor Dom. Sorry.

441
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 2: No. I agree with you one hundred percent, and I'm

442
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 2: glad you said that. I agree as well. When I

443
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 2: think about the white women that I have meaningful relationships with,

444
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 2: many of them are advocates, like many of them are allies.

445
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: They are actively doing the work. And I think about Nikki,

446
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: who supports our podcast. She's a big fan, she's on Patreon,

447
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,479
Speaker 2: she supported us from like day one, and she's like

448
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 2: doing the work as an ally right, She's very aware

449
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 2: and conscious. And Nikki's going in and I'd be like, okay, girl,

450
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 2: go ahead and use your privilege. Mama, like do that thing,

451
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 2: because there are certain things that some white women can

452
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: say and do that if we do it work perceived

453
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 2: in a certain way. So I'm with you. They're definitely

454
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 2: difficult conversations that we have about race, But like you said,

455
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 2: it's so important because I think it's such a big

456
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 2: part of who we are as a blas black women.

457
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 2: I want to say in this country, but I think

458
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,239
Speaker 2: we can say in the world, because I'm sure there

459
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 2: are black women in other parts of the world as well.

460
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 2: That you're treated a certain way, and it's important for

461
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 2: your friends to be aware of that, right and to

462
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 2: know how to advocate for you, and to also be

463
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 2: empathetic about how you are positioned in society and what

464
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 2: that means and how some a statement that they might

465
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 2: make could be taken or misconstrued. Right. So I do

466
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 2: I agree with you. I think that it is important

467
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 2: as a black woman if you have white friends, white

468
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 2: women friends in particular, it is important to have conversations

469
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 2: about race.

470
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think you know, just to also add

471
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: some more layers to the conversation, thinking about skin color

472
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: and skin tone, right, and how that plays into the conversation.

473
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: Like I acknowledge that I have light skin privilege, right,

474
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: I am aware that there are instances in which my

475
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: engagement with white women may not be perceived as threatening

476
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: as some of my darker skin counterparts, right. And I'm

477
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: also aware that my light skin privilege can get me

478
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: into spaces that some of my darker skinned sisters can't

479
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: get into unfortunately, and so for me, I also think

480
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: about what my role is right in terms of advocating

481
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: and having those conversations and calling out white folks around

482
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: how they engage with black folks and particularly around skin

483
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: color and the comments that they might make. Right.

484
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yes a spot. I'm so glad you brought that up.

485
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 2: Colorism in the community and even how we have to

486
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 2: I would say that we should feel called to be

487
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 2: advocates within our community for our darker you know, brothers

488
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 2: and sisters, right, yes, honestly, can we be real though?

489
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 2: It isn't so bizarre, like okay, so having a daughter now, right,

490
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 2: having a little precious, innocent, pure, just beautiful little baby

491
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 2: who's what we call our little melanated munchkin right, seeing

492
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: her and thinking about how this world is so just

493
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 2: driven and controlled by like race and someone's the color

494
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 2: of their skin. It's so bizarre when we think about

495
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 2: this is where we are as grown adults that are

496
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 2: aware and conscious really is you know, the white people.

497
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: It's like the path to whiteness, or the proximity to whiteness,

498
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: surprisessated whiteness.

499
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 2: When you think about the paper bag test and just

500
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: to think about. Yeah, it's just so crazy, girls, it's

501
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 2: mind boggling, and I think there's a lot more conversations

502
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 2: that need to be had about this topic. I know

503
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 2: that we do have a few tips on navigating complex relationships,

504
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 2: so I think we should just dive on into those tips.

505
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: I know we're going to have another conversation, a deeper

506
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 2: conversation on the after show after this, so lady, definitely

507
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 2: join us on Patreon to tune into the after show

508
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 2: and to see the video because we go on video

509
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 2: now so we wait for every episode. So yeah, let's

510
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 2: start into the tips. Done.

511
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: So, I also want to I want to be clear

512
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: that our tips are for black women. Okay, that our

513
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: tips really are aged because our podcast is primarily for

514
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: black women. Anybody else who's not a black woman who's

515
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: listening you can derive benefit from this. But these tips

516
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 1: specifically are for our black sisters. So tip number one

517
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: is awareness. Right, So, as I mentioned before, having a

518
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: level of conscious awareness of what is happening around you,

519
00:33:54,360 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: who your friends are, and why they are your friends? Right,

520
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: Like you gotta know, I mean, in all things and Tea,

521
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: I think you were the one that like first started

522
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 1: asking like why about certain things, and I started like

523
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: marinating on that and realizing that the asking the question

524
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 1: why is so applicable to multiple areas of our lives,

525
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 1: thinking about our why and having that awareness of why

526
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: why I might be friends with this particular woman.

527
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 2: You know, like when it comes to awareness, right, that

528
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 2: is so important, Like we cannot be oblivious. We need

529
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 2: to know where people stand, and like you said, we

530
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 2: do need to have these conversations. It makes me think

531
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 2: about the mysterious death of the black woman in North

532
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 2: Georgia who was at the sleepover. But I believe it

533
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 2: was all white people. Have you heard about this.

534
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: No, but I know about North Georgia, So I'm not surprised.

535
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 2: You're not surprised, lady, if you're listening, well, obviously you're listening,

536
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 2: But lady, go tune or go look up Tamla Horsford. Okay,

537
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 2: t A M L A h O R S F

538
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 2: O R D dom. We can talk about this in

539
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 2: the after show. But yeah, she was a mom, she

540
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 2: went to this sleepover and she mysteriously died. I mean,

541
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 2: the circumstances are ridiculous. There were all there were white

542
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 2: men and white women there, and I just think about

543
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 2: dang like being aware, like and know and having conversations

544
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 2: with people where if you pick up like, listen to

545
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 2: your intuition, lady, if you pick up on some vibe

546
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 2: and you're like, uh, I don't know, it's probably coming

547
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 2: up for a reason, so I can awareness is super key.

548
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 2: Then you have boundary setting as the next tip, right,

549
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 2: boundary setting when you hear when you think about boundary

550
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,399
Speaker 2: setting and the context of this relationship, Tom, I would

551
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 2: love to hear what comes to mind for you. For me,

552
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 2: when I think about boundary setting, it means I've had

553
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 2: situations I've talked about this on the podcast, but where

554
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 2: you know, a white person might ask to, you know,

555
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 2: give me a nickname. I've had white men and women

556
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 2: do that where it's like, oh, I want to give

557
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 2: you a little rap name, and I'm like, no, because

558
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 2: you wouldn't say that. You would not say that to

559
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 2: Joe over there. No, you're not going to give me

560
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 2: a nickname and call me T dog or nothing. Great. No,

561
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 2: we're not doing that. Setting a boundary and I've had

562
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 2: to do that in the work setting as well, like

563
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 2: letting no, no, thank you, setting a boundary in regards

564
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 2: to that setting a boundary in regards to a Halloween

565
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,720
Speaker 2: cost and suggestion. I mean whatever, it might be, anything

566
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 2: that's inappropriate or that's racist that they may not they

567
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 2: may not know any micro questions like across the gamut,

568
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 2: just really being clear about boundary setting. And I hate

569
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 2: to say, I hate to say this, don but and

570
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 2: I know, yeah, I wouldn't necessarily say education per se

571
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 2: because I know there's a whole other conversation we can

572
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 2: have about educated white people. So what I'm going to

573
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 2: say is boundary setting. And I'm the kind of person

574
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 2: like you said, I'm asking why I like to also

575
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 2: give reasons on like this is why we're not going

576
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 2: to do that. So that's just my personal preference. But

577
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 2: I'm not saying to do a whole lecture and be

578
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 2: given away your insight for free. But that's what comes

579
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 2: to mind for me down what about you?

580
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: Yes, So there's a lot in terms of boundary setting.

581
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: I do think that piece around not being the educator. Right,

582
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 1: So when I think about the stuff, when I think

583
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: about the racial tensions that we were experiencing in twenty twenty,

584
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: like the height of it, and I think about how

585
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: white folks may have turned to their black friends for

586
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: education around why are black folks so upset.

587
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: Woo.

588
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 1: So, unless your job title involves being a diversity expert,

589
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 1: you can set that boundary and say, you know what,

590
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: I don't want to engage in this type of conversation

591
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 1: with you. Right. Here are some readings that you can

592
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 1: go and do, and after you've done that, then we

593
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 1: can have a conversation. But it is not my job

594
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: to educate you on this, And so I think there's

595
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: the boundary setting there. I also think from a professional stance,

596
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: there's also the boundary setting of I'm not coming in

597
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 1: to do your do this shit for free? Right, So

598
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 1: I am not gonna come in to your place of

599
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: work and be and provide a workshop and do a

600
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 1: diversity training for free, unless t you were like, you

601
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 1: know what, dom I need you to come in. My

602
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: team needs, my team needs some assistance as a favor

603
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 1: to you. Yes, I would come in and do it, right,

604
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: But Susie who works at institute Xyz who found me

605
00:38:55,680 --> 00:39:00,320
Speaker 1: on the internet, Sorry, Susie Xyz, you're gonna pay myr

606
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 1: And if you can't pay my rate, then I cannot

607
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 1: provide this workshop for you, and no I'm not giving

608
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: you sources for free either.

609
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 2: There you go. I mean that's it, point, period, period, pool.

610
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 2: And then we have one more tip, is that right?

611
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: Yes? So our final tip is having a support system, lady,

612
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 1: whether it's in a work environment or in casual friendships,

613
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: it is important for you to have sisters who look

614
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,879
Speaker 1: like you who you can go to and you can say,

615
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 1: you know what I'm having, this is what I'm experiencing.

616
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 1: How have you dealt with this? How have you navigated

617
00:39:54,360 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: this situation? Right? Because also too, I do think, and

618
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 1: this is my own personal value, I do think that

619
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:09,760
Speaker 1: it's important for us to have friends who look like us,

620
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: to have colleagues in the workplace who look like us,

621
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: because the reality is until the entire country and all

622
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 1: of the systems within this country change, Yeah, no matter

623
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: where we work, we're going to encounter systems where we

624
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 1: need other folks who look like us, who understand what

625
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:36,800
Speaker 1: we are going through.

626
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 2: There you go, spot on, you hit the down on

627
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 2: the head, lady. We appreciate you for listening. We're going

628
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 2: to head on over to Patreon and record the after show.

629
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 2: Please look up tamblor horse for it that is so important.

630
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 2: We're going to talk more about that story. Donal. I'll

631
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 2: give you the rundown on exactly what happened the devastating story,

632
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 2: but it talks about, I think, the importance of the

633
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 2: conversation that we had today. Lady, also connect with us

634
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 2: on Instagram at her Space podcast. If we get to

635
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 2: ten k followers, we'll be able to post links directly

636
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 2: in our Instagram story. So lady, if you enjoy the podcast,

637
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 2: go follow us on Instagram and drop some greenhearts on

638
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 2: our latest post and let us know that you've listened.

639
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 2: And if you are on Patreon, we'll catch you in

640
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 2: the after show you. Hey, lady, it's Terry here from

641
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 2: the Cultivating her Space podcast. I'm hosting a free podcasting

642
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 2: masterclass where I'm going to teach you how to create

643
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,280
Speaker 2: your impactful podcast and how you can generate multiple streams

644
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 2: of income. You can visit podcast with Terry dot com

645
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 2: to register for free. I hope to see you there.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us today. Please note that our show

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Speaker 1: may contain conversations about self help, advice, self empowerment, and

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Speaker 1: mental health, but is by no means meant to be

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Speaker 1: a substitute for an ongoing formal relationship with a trained

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Speaker 1: mental health provider. If you are, or someone you know

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Speaker 2: If you liked what you heard and want to keep

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Speaker 2: the conversation going, visit our website cultivatingherspace dot com and

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Speaker 2: before we meet again, repeat after me. Greatness is my birthright,

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Speaker 2: so I no longer ask for permission,