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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And by the time you hear this,

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Speaker 1: hopefully herschel Walker will have lost his Senate race. We

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Speaker 1: have a wild, wild show for you today. The Washington

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Speaker 1: Post Philip Bump talks to us about Trump's troubled relationship

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Speaker 1: with the Constitution. Then we'll talk to the Center for

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Speaker 1: Reproductive Rights Nancy north Up about the effect reproductive rights

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Speaker 1: had on the midterms. But first we have Doug Balloon,

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Speaker 1: not his real name, who you might know of as

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Speaker 1: Twitter's funniest barely parody account, The New York Times pitch Pot.

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Speaker 1: Welcome too, Fast Politics, New York Times Pitchpot, thank you,

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Speaker 1: thank you for having me here. We're very excited. I

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Speaker 1: told Mac Greenfield my long Sufferings Fast that we were

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Speaker 1: going to have you on the podcast, and he was like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, The New York Times pitch pot is

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Speaker 1: going to be on the podcast. We'll do my best

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Speaker 1: to live up to expectations. I guess tell us a

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Speaker 1: little bit about your story, because you weren't always the

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Speaker 1: New York Times pitch Bond. No, so I was Doug

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Speaker 1: j on Balloon Boos for a long time, and then

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Speaker 1: I sort of started to get interested in Twitter. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, like maybe not that not not very early on,

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Speaker 1: maybe two thousand fifteen or so, And uh, I didn't

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Speaker 1: like it that much at first, and then I started

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Speaker 1: to really like some of these humor accounts, like, um,

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Speaker 1: what's the guy that? The Jeff Jarvis guy, what's this? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Real Jeff Jarvis. By the way, can we just I

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Speaker 1: want to stop for a minute and explain to people

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Speaker 1: what balloon juices. Oh yeah, so Balloon Juices that. It

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Speaker 1: was a really interesting blog. I think it really is

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Speaker 1: kind of more comment er driven than anything else. This

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Speaker 1: guy John Cole started it, I don't know, two thousand

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Speaker 1: to two thousand three, and he was originally conservative and

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Speaker 1: a big supporter of the Iraq war. Well, someone has

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Speaker 1: to be hard to find someone who was a big

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Speaker 1: supporter of the Iraq war. Yes, continue sorry. Around the

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Speaker 1: time of the Terry Schiavo stuff, he started to feel

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Speaker 1: really tortured sort of about continuing to support Bush because

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Speaker 1: he thought that the Terry Skiava thing was so ridiculous,

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Speaker 1: and so he was always very good with commenters he

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Speaker 1: was a very good sense of humor, so even though

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Speaker 1: he was a conservative, he had a really mixed kind

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Speaker 1: of bag of comment or it's probably most of them

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Speaker 1: liberal actually, and a lot of them. A lot of

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Speaker 1: the you know, give and take of the blog was

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Speaker 1: people in the comments just ripping him, and I thought

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Speaker 1: it was really funny to watch, and so I came in.

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Speaker 1: I decided that what might really annoy him was if

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Speaker 1: someone just took like the dumbest writing arguments they could

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Speaker 1: and just started hrenting them, parenting them this completely since

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Speaker 1: you're away. So I did that for a while. It

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Speaker 1: became sort of a popular feature of the blog, and

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Speaker 1: then eventually I told him it was just a joke,

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Speaker 1: after he had done his full conversion to being level.

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Speaker 1: Then I was like, I don't really, there's no point

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Speaker 1: in me doing this anymore, because you know, my my work,

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Speaker 1: my work is done here. And then a little later

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Speaker 1: he asked me to join him on the blog, and

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Speaker 1: then more people joined, and it's sort of a I

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Speaker 1: guess it's a blog that is, you know, kind of

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Speaker 1: normy liberal in general and kind of you know, tough

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Speaker 1: on people and sort of really most famous for having

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Speaker 1: really brutal comments, you know, like I would write things

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Speaker 1: that I thought were okay and then the people shredd

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Speaker 1: me in the I think that's all writing. Unfortunately, the

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Speaker 1: spectually these are sort of especially it's funny because I

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Speaker 1: see people, like with a lot of Twitter followers, you know,

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Speaker 1: something fun of and people will offer a pretty mild

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Speaker 1: criticism and the replies and they'll just get so mad

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Speaker 1: about you, like that for example, oh really, you don't say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't get it, because I would write things that

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Speaker 1: people even more or less agreet with what I was saying,

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Speaker 1: and they still would just destroy me for how I

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Speaker 1: how I said it and then like the meanest possible way.

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Speaker 1: And so it was good preparation, I think for for Twitter.

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Speaker 1: And then on Twitter, I kind of I really like

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Speaker 1: these humor accounts and I really liked I really like

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Speaker 1: the Jeff Jarvis guy. Although I like Jeff Jarvis too,

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Speaker 1: I don't think the account was especially targeting him. And

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Speaker 1: I happened to have that name, and I got to

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Speaker 1: really like this account called Federalist Pitchpot, and then there

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Speaker 1: was a Reason Pitchpot, which in some ways I liked

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Speaker 1: even that or they were different. Federalist pitchpot was hard

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Speaker 1: because most of what Federalist pitch Bot was doing was taking,

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Speaker 1: which this is a valuable lesson for me I learned later,

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Speaker 1: was taking stuff, but the federal is actually sad and

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Speaker 1: kind of making it a little bit less offensive, like

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Speaker 1: Tony also making it funny, you know, and he would

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Speaker 1: have these contests like which is the real head just

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Speaker 1: a fake headline, which it would always be, which everyone

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Speaker 1: wasn't really quite as a threatening or as offensive as

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Speaker 1: the other one. And Reason Pitchbot was I thought, a

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Speaker 1: really funny take on Reason because it was again actually

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Speaker 1: not really quite as crazy as Reason is. It was

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Speaker 1: Reason as written by the idea libertarian, who is a kid,

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Speaker 1: like anineteen year old kid living in his parents basement

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Speaker 1: all day. Yeah. I just really liked them. And then

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Speaker 1: I was like, well, I always have this thing where like,

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Speaker 1: if someone does something I really like, I think maybe

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Speaker 1: maybe I could do this too, and then other people

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Speaker 1: would enjoy it. And so I've always had this fixation

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Speaker 1: with The New York Times, you and everyone else, right, well,

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Speaker 1: just the particular style of it always sticks in my head,

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Speaker 1: you know, I remember I don't know why I remember

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Speaker 1: this so well, but I think like my sophomore year

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Speaker 1: of college, they had an article about n w A.

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Speaker 1: I remember saying things like Mr Cubes, you know, gretty

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Speaker 1: lyrics and stuff like my roommate and I just thought

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Speaker 1: it was the funniest thing. The whole way was written

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Speaker 1: with Mr Cube and Mr Dre and the gritty lyrics

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Speaker 1: and all, you know, all these sort of New York

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Speaker 1: Times tropes. And I don't know why, just after that

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Speaker 1: I got into this thing of trying to talk like

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Speaker 1: the New York Times all the time with with my

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Speaker 1: roommate who also also did it, and uh yeah. So

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Speaker 1: then I was like, what could I do that would

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Speaker 1: be kind of funny, like a pitchpot. And then I thought,

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Speaker 1: I know what I'll do. I'll do New York Times

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Speaker 1: pitch bot. And I started doing it and it wasn't

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Speaker 1: very you know, people didn't get like a great reception

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Speaker 1: at first. But then a conservative journalist that I keep

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Speaker 1: in touch with were both really big Rolling Stones fans,

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Speaker 1: and we kind of bonded over that was thing saying

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Speaker 1: this is a great bit. You were born to do this,

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Speaker 1: you gotta keep doing this. So I was like, all right,

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Speaker 1: maybe I'll try to actually devote a little bit of

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Speaker 1: energy to this. Then I did a tweet about this

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Speaker 1: is like March maybe, I did a tweet about you know,

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Speaker 1: those sources close to Jared and Ivanka kind of tweets, right,

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Speaker 1: and it blew up and I got a lot of followers,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, this is great. That's and

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Speaker 1: that's when I started to really good into it. And

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Speaker 1: also I was very lucky in that I got I

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Speaker 1: have really good repliers, right, right, replies were great, and

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Speaker 1: that's what kind of keeps it going. Well, that's what

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Speaker 1: why the internet is great, right, is because you meet

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Speaker 1: great people who are really smart, and then that's really interesting. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So you're born of the time of the Iraq War, right,

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Speaker 1: that's when you got into this, which was in many

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Speaker 1: ways a simpler time, right and a less deranged Republican Party.

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Speaker 1: I mean, have you been surprised to watch the change there?

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Speaker 1: You mean becoming more deranged? Yes, more deranged? Not really, No,

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Speaker 1: it's about what really I think that's the thing is

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Speaker 1: that for people like me who were well, I mean

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Speaker 1: not just that I didn't actually spend that much time

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Speaker 1: reading crazy right wing stuff myself on the internet, but

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Speaker 1: I follow a couple of guys I followed. Steve am

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Speaker 1: Is one of them, not particularly popular blog. I think

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Speaker 1: Oliver Willis is another one, and maybe and there was

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Speaker 1: a couple of others too, mostly smaller blogs. They're like

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Speaker 1: would really spend time watching Fox News, and not even

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Speaker 1: just watching Fox News. I think Fox News wasn't really

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Speaker 1: it was a little bit behind the curve, I think

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Speaker 1: in terms of being totally crazy. But um, these sort

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Speaker 1: of reading crazy right wing blogs and stuff, and uh

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Speaker 1: I read their stuff, and I started to realize there

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Speaker 1: really is this thing going on in the party where

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Speaker 1: you know, you have the leaders like Mitt and McCain

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Speaker 1: and Buscheur's to all to some extent terrible, maybe Romney

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Speaker 1: less than the others. A lot of what they're actually

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Speaker 1: doing is trying to keep the really you know, the

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Speaker 1: really loony stuff, trying to kind of tamp it down,

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Speaker 1: you know, either to win elections or because I just

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Speaker 1: disagree with it, I don't know. And uh, reading this

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Speaker 1: these blogs, I started realized that's really the dynamic and

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Speaker 1: eventually the lid is probably gonna blow, you know. So

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Speaker 1: I didn't think that Trump was gonna win the primary,

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Speaker 1: but I wasn't that surprised that he did, you know, um,

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Speaker 1: and I really think that a lot of the media,

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Speaker 1: almost all the mainstream media, they really had their head

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Speaker 1: in the sand about what was going on the Republican Party, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, look at you know, all these people that

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Speaker 1: you probably know from being a Polard who were former Republicans.

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Speaker 1: They all say that about themselves, right, they all say,

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Speaker 1: I really had except the once they didn't. They did

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Speaker 1: see it coming. I didn't really know. I didn't really

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Speaker 1: know what was going on, right, They didn't realize that

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Speaker 1: it could get so much worse than it did. But

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Speaker 1: I know, I'm not I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised

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Speaker 1: at all. Right, all right, so let me ask you

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Speaker 1: right now, what's happening? I mean, what do you think

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Speaker 1: it feels like there's a readjustment in the Republican Party

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Speaker 1: right now? I'm not saying it's better. Does it feel

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Speaker 1: to you like there's something happening now? Trump is sort

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Speaker 1: of going against Trump? Yeah? I think so. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: I think that it's really hard to say because at

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Speaker 1: the elite level, definitely, Yeah, But I don't really know

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Speaker 1: what's going to go on with the rank and file.

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Speaker 1: So I'll tell you what I think is that there

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Speaker 1: is a little bit of a movement against him right now.

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Speaker 1: But he's not campaigning, he's not on Twitter, he's not

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Speaker 1: doing all the stuff that he's good at. Number one,

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Speaker 1: number two. I think their plan, right, I think the

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Speaker 1: plan to have him not be the nominee in four

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Speaker 1: involves getting behind someone who's a lot like him, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if it was like, we're gonna rally behind

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Speaker 1: Mitt Romney and or or even Marc Arubia, who I like,

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Speaker 1: but he's not like Trump, it would be different. They're not.

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Speaker 1: They're rallying behind the Santis, who is really a lot

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Speaker 1: like Trump. I think so in that sense, I don't

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Speaker 1: think there really is that much of a change. Now

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Speaker 1: do people at the times? Do they find you adorable

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Speaker 1: or do they find you annoying? So I think it varies.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting. So what's his name? Jonathan Martin one time

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Speaker 1: showed up. This is a really phn of them, but

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Speaker 1: this was the highlight William like career. I had this

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Speaker 1: bit I did where a guy from I had this

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Speaker 1: thing once when I asked people to tell me good

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Speaker 1: local stuff, you know, to help me with the diner

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Speaker 1: Safari tweets, and one brought this really great thing about

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Speaker 1: in this Indiana diner, everyone has three questions, and how's

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Speaker 1: the bread of tender loin? Second is house is the

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Speaker 1: quarry hiring? And the third is like, do you really

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Speaker 1: think that Don McNeil was the victim of the Wolke

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Speaker 1: mob or something? And so I started to do this

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Speaker 1: one all the time, and I don't do it that often.

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Speaker 1: It's not quite as easy as some of the other templates,

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Speaker 1: but I do it. And I did one, and Jonathan Martin,

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Speaker 1: clearly must have hated my account for years, showed up

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Speaker 1: and blocked quoted me and said, I guarantee they don't

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Speaker 1: call it bread a tender loin, and try harder. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was a highlight for me because they do call

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Speaker 1: it bread a tenderline. Is the whole thing was based

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Speaker 1: on a guy who lives in Indiana, you know. And

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Speaker 1: then million people showed up in their replies and said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they do actually call it creddit enderline in parts of Indiana.

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Speaker 1: And so clearly he hated the account. Yeah, clearly it

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Speaker 1: clearly it got under his But he was really one

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Speaker 1: of the ones. I'm really aiming it at too. I

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Speaker 1: really don't like his reporting, and I really don't like

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Speaker 1: the New York Times political reporting in general. I heard

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Speaker 1: though that I have a reader who has a friend

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Speaker 1: who's on the who's on the editorial board, and he

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Speaker 1: said his friend loves the account and actually want wanted me.

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna tell you the guy's name, I obviously,

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Speaker 1: but he wanted me to to start to do a

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Speaker 1: couple where I made fun of him by name, but

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Speaker 1: actually I liked all his writings, so I couldn't figure

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Speaker 1: out a way to do it. That's amazing. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's the thing that I think is interesting about the

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Speaker 1: New York Times pitch pot is it struck me that

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Speaker 1: you started going for the editorial writers, but you moved

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Speaker 1: to the political car and that that actually, ultimately that

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Speaker 1: the editorial pieces were not in your mind, is problematic

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Speaker 1: as the straight political coverage. Is that true? Right? While

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Speaker 1: there's two things right, One is that I think they're

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Speaker 1: political coverage is worse. I think that they're I started

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Speaker 1: to read their editorials and they're not that bad and

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Speaker 1: to me in a lot of ways, yeah, relative to

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Speaker 1: political reporting. Also, though, I will say, part of it

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Speaker 1: is that his opinion writing goes. I started to find

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Speaker 1: all these ridiculous sub stack people to be so much worse. Well,

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Speaker 1: now I sort of felt like, which would I'd rather do?

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Speaker 1: Make fun of Tom Friedman for some kind of stupid

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Speaker 1: but probably not that wrong pro free trade piece, you know,

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Speaker 1: the fun of Glenn Greenwald for some insane thing about

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Speaker 1: Ukrainian Nazis with bio all this whole thing, I don't

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Speaker 1: know why this drugs me so much, This whole thing

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Speaker 1: of all these people with no training of medical traine

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Speaker 1: any of any kind, talking about why they think the

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Speaker 1: lab leak is real, Like it's just so ridiculous to me,

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Speaker 1: you know, and it's much more I mean, who do

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Speaker 1: I really I really don't like saying Nick Christoph or

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Speaker 1: Brett Stevens, but but they don't do things that are

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Speaker 1: quite that stupid to me, you know. And so I

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Speaker 1: sort of lost interest a little bit in the editorial

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Speaker 1: board when the when I was confronted with this, the

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Speaker 1: insanity of the substract bros. Is the problem with normal,

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Speaker 1: normal political reporting. And I don't want to call anyone

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Speaker 1: out because this is a problem. I think it's more

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Speaker 1: of a mainstream media problem and less of a New

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Speaker 1: York Times problem. But because the New York Times is

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Speaker 1: the most famous, they get most of the gruff. Do

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Speaker 1: you think that part of it is that there is

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Speaker 1: this inherent bias against appearing liberal, which helps elevate the

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Speaker 1: far right in a way. Yeah, I think definitely. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think they're obsessed with not appearing and I think

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Speaker 1: it has I think it it works in various ways, right,

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Speaker 1: One is that they elevate conservative voices. I think the

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Speaker 1: other is that they do believe that the things they

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Speaker 1: conservatives saying are stupid and they can't really relate to

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Speaker 1: them at all, and so they don't hold conservative arguments

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Speaker 1: to a high standard, you know. I mean like if

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Speaker 1: some liberals, like if some liberal happened to be saying

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Speaker 1: crazy stuff about the border, not that the liberal would

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Speaker 1: they'd say, well, actually, statistically blah blah blah. Also, they're

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Speaker 1: only coming here for jobs, so if you just had

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Speaker 1: to stop the employee, you know, they pick it that,

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Speaker 1: they pick at the argument. They don't do that with

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Speaker 1: conservative arguments. They're just like they just they just sort

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Speaker 1: of repeat them, you know. Right. Part of it is

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Speaker 1: because they don't even they think that they're probably so

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Speaker 1: stupid that there's no point in trying to pick at them,

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Speaker 1: and so they don't take conservative arguments seriously, and that

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Speaker 1: actually leads in a weird way to them just repeating them. No, No,

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Speaker 1: I think that's right. I mean, is it's weirdly a

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Speaker 1: function of being liberal causes these straight reporters to come

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Speaker 1: off as more conservative. Yeah. Yeah, And I also don't

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Speaker 1: think that they're that. I mean, I think that they're

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Speaker 1: very culturally liberal, you know, like they watch white Lotus

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Speaker 1: and they like to eat proving food and stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: you know, but they're not exactly but I don't think

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Speaker 1: we care that much about about working people, you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean necessarily, and so I think they're very conscious

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Speaker 1: of being culturally liberal people, you know, from the Selachord

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Speaker 1: or blah blah blah, And so that makes them take

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Speaker 1: a funny attitude I think towards towards sort of what

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Speaker 1: they think of as heartly and conservatives, right right. I

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Speaker 1: mean fundamentally, what you're discussing is a kind of fatis

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Speaker 1: ization of the heartland. Yeah, it can go in different directions.

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Speaker 1: I think, like I don't really mind the ones where

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Speaker 1: they go I don't really mind them if they sort

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Speaker 1: of treat that people with some kind of respect, Like

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Speaker 1: if they go and they go around and they eat

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Speaker 1: the local specialties and say they're good or something like that.

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Speaker 1: I like that kind of thing. But what I don't

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Speaker 1: like is a lot of it just sounds like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, these idiots in this healthscape, the stupid things

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Speaker 1: that they're saying, you know, and yet somehow the fact

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Speaker 1: that these idiots in this healthscape are saying stupid things

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Speaker 1: really reflects a failure of democrats to get to them.

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Speaker 1: That's sort of the vibe that I get from a

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Speaker 1: lot of it, and I think it's it's very bad,

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Speaker 1: I think in a lot of different ways. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: very interesting. I think that this idea of like this

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Speaker 1: kind of inability to connect with the with the fantasy

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Speaker 1: because it's not even real, right, with the fantasy of

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Speaker 1: quote unquote regular Joe's is um super interesting and problematic

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Speaker 1: for probably all of us. Right, I mean, you're a

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Speaker 1: math professor, right, Yeah, But I lived in fly Over Country.

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Speaker 1: I live in I mean, you know, I grew up

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Speaker 1: in a very rayal area. I wouldn't say that I

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Speaker 1: totally you know, I mean, I I am an upper

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Speaker 1: middle class person living in a very liberal neighborhood and

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Speaker 1: so on. But I don't think that people who live

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Speaker 1: in areas outside of outside of the coasts really do

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Speaker 1: have quite a strange disconnect with people in fly Over

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Speaker 1: Country because we live there ourselves and probviously were economically

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Speaker 1: and culturally different than some of the people that live nearbias.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, we drive through their neighborhood sometimes we you know,

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Speaker 1: see see I see, I see the kind of people

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Speaker 1: that in our time seems to you know, mock or

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Speaker 1: or elevate depending how you look at it, all the

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Speaker 1: time in my regular life. And so I think there's

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Speaker 1: a geographic It's not just a cultural class issue. It's

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Speaker 1: a geographic And this is something, by the way, I

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Speaker 1: know a lot of local reporters, not just here, but

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Speaker 1: actually various ones, like from Ohio told me they like

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Speaker 1: the account stuff, and I talked to them, and I

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Speaker 1: think they they're journalists too, very good journalists, honestly, and

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Speaker 1: I think that if they wrote these articles instead, they

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Speaker 1: would be much better articles. Thank you so much, New

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Speaker 1: York Times, pitch Pot. I hope you'll come back. I'd

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Speaker 1: love to. Philip Bump is a national columnist for The

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Speaker 1: Washington Post. Welcome to Fast Politics, Philip Bump, Thank you

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Speaker 1: very much. So I wanted to talk to you about

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Speaker 1: the Constitution. Sure, great McCarthy decides he's going to start

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Speaker 1: Congress when and if he becomes speaker with the reading

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Speaker 1: of the Constitution, then this weekend, Donald Trump, there were

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Speaker 1: a lot of crazy truth this weekend, but one of

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Speaker 1: them called for a set aside of the Constitution. Can

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Speaker 1: we talk about that? Yeah, no, absolutely, And he then

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Speaker 1: tried to sort of backtrack and say, well, I mean

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Speaker 1: the whole constant, you know, I mean the way that

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Speaker 1: he does things, but yes, just the parts he doesn't like.

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Speaker 1: He called the termination of all rules, regulations, the articles,

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Speaker 1: even though it is found in this Constitution. There is

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Speaker 1: no world in which Trump has ever sort of held

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Speaker 1: responsible for what he says. Yeah, I mean that's I mean.

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Speaker 1: I was actually, uh, something that I'm sort of working

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Speaker 1: on today is all the times that people said, okay,

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Speaker 1: this is it that Donald Trump's gone too far? I

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Speaker 1: mean the point that we've had two in the past

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Speaker 1: three weeks, right, I mean, like, yeah, I mean this

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Speaker 1: is someone who obviously, since July, the Republican Party has

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Speaker 1: been hoping he'll just sort of go away, uh, and

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Speaker 1: not really interested in sort of tackling the problem themselves.

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Speaker 1: I I at one point in time analogized it to

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Speaker 1: the TV show Holders, in which the Republican Party just

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Speaker 1: sort of let their house fill up with garbage and

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Speaker 1: someone had to come in and be like, hey, guys,

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Speaker 1: your house is full of garbage, and you're like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but we just, you know, we sort of make do

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Speaker 1: and we just sort of live with this household of

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Speaker 1: the garbage. But you know, it seems very clear that

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Speaker 1: they're not going to actually tackle the problem themselves. So

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Speaker 1: let's go further with this, because it's strange. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it seems to me like there was a scandal which

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Speaker 1: was Trump having dinner with Kanye and a white nationalist right,

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Speaker 1: so that the scandal was like, oh my god, Trump

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Speaker 1: had dinner with Nick quinte Is while Kanye was in

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Speaker 1: the middle of an anti Semitic tear which has continued

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Speaker 1: un debated. And then that scandal was interrupted by another scandal,

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Speaker 1: which was this weekend Trump saying that whatever, you know,

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Speaker 1: throwing with the constitution. I mean, do you find this

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Speaker 1: to be I mean, this reminds me of the Trump

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Speaker 1: administration a little bit. Yeah, No, I think that's right

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Speaker 1: where you sort of had them sort of stacking on

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Speaker 1: top of each other. I do think that one of

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Speaker 1: the things we've been seeing, and I think Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: is is very attuned to this. One of the things

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Speaker 1: we're seeing is we are actually getting I think, people

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Speaker 1: being more willing to more quickly step up and say

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Speaker 1: things that are critical of Trump. Again, it's often kind

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Speaker 1: of passive or want and you know, it's not necessarily

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Speaker 1: the sort of, you know, vociferous denunciation that you would

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Speaker 1: hope for if you have a former president who's saying

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Speaker 1: that the Constitution should be set aside so that he

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Speaker 1: can be reinstalled into into the presidency. But you are

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Speaker 1: seeing it, and I think that Republican Party is slowly

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Speaker 1: coming to terms with the fact that maybe they're actually

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Speaker 1: getting to the point where Donald Trump might be fitted

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Speaker 1: from the scene where you know, we're starting to see

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Speaker 1: polling where Donald Trump isn't really doing that well against

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Speaker 1: potential other candidates. He still got a path to the nomination, certainly,

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Speaker 1: but I think the Republicans and Trump are very aware

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Speaker 1: that this is not what it was, and it may

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Speaker 1: not even be what it was, right, I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: the big question part of his the way he sort

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Speaker 1: of was able to win the nomination was to be

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Speaker 1: a kind of joke, right, and to ride that free

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Speaker 1: media into the White House. I mean, don't you think

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Speaker 1: there was a sense of that? Yeah, I mean I

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Speaker 1: think that there certainly was. It was the case that

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump attracted a lot of attention because he was

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Speaker 1: a novelty. But I really think that the the way

428
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 1: in which Donald Trump won the presidency or won the

429
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 1: nomination was that he basically just parroted back the nonsense

430
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 1: that he heard in conservative media to a base to

431
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 1: consume that media. You know, mainstream Republicans weren't saying the

432
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 1: things that that you saw him right bark, because there

433
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,479
Speaker 1: were nonsense and lies, you know, and and dishonest you know,

434
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 1: and you are things that that were mentioned by Shawan

435
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 1: Handyon Fox News. Mainstream Republicans were happy to have those

436
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 1: people be their allies, but they weren't necessarily saying that

437
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 1: things about immigration that you would see in the far

438
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 1: right conservative media. Donald Trump said it, and so that's

439
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 1: how he got the reputation among Republicans as being a

440
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 1: truth teller, because he just said the nonsense that was

441
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 1: be he himself was picking up out a conservative media

442
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 1: and feeding and back to Republicans. So yeah, I mean,

443
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: I do think that obviously he benefited from this sort

444
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 1: of novelty status in sixteen, but I really think his

445
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 1: success originated, and people forget this to some extent, it

446
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 1: started with the blowback from his speech, his announcement speech

447
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 1: in June, when he got into that giant fight with Univision,

448
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 1: he got into giant fight with Macy's, and that drew

449
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,199
Speaker 1: a ton of attention to his rhetoric on immigration, and

450
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,159
Speaker 1: a lot of Republican parts are like, oh, yeah, this

451
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 1: guy is finally saying the things in immigration that I

452
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: want people to say because they've been seeing the Fox

453
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 1: News And I think I think that was the primary

454
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: thing that that sort of gave him the momentum that

455
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,120
Speaker 1: he needed to win. Yeah, No, I think that's that's right.

456
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 1: So this time around, he doesn't have that advantage. I mean,

457
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 1: do you think that's true or now he does not

458
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 1: have the distinct advantage of being the only guy who's

459
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 1: going to say the nonsense and far right media since

460
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 1: a lot of Republicans say that nonsense, including Rohanda santiss.

461
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 1: He does, however, have the advantage of having a much

462
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 1: more robust constituency that he did at the outset, and

463
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,919
Speaker 1: so he ends up sort of in the same place

464
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,959
Speaker 1: where in he had this core base of people who

465
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 1: really supported him, largely because of the factor that I

466
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: was just describing. Now he still has that base. It's

467
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 1: not a majority of the party necessarily, and you know,

468
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 1: obviously a majority of the party views him positively, but

469
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: I think that it is not necessarily a majority of

470
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,159
Speaker 1: the party that wants to see him win again in

471
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: four based on polling. But again, depending what field looks like,

472
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 1: he may not need a majority disupport him at this

473
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: point and work again, win the nomination right because of

474
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,199
Speaker 1: the electoral college, No, just the nomination because of the

475
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 1: way that the primary process works, and then just wait

476
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 1: until everyone else has sort of winnowed out, and then

477
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 1: he becomes sort of a you know, he wins enough

478
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: when you take all the states for delegates and he's

479
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: back in the back in the driversy. That sounds just great.

480
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 1: So I want to talk to you now about if

481
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: you were online this weekend, or maybe you had a life.

482
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 1: I was online this weekend, So I was able to

483
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 1: absorb the Twitter files, which was this weird, which was

484
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: this weird I don't even know what it was. It

485
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: was Elon Musk, you know, giving us the real truth

486
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 1: through mad to hee be. But basically the net net

487
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: of it, which is the story you just wrote, was

488
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: that Hunter Biden's that the suppression of this New York

489
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: Post story about Hunter Biden's lap top may have cost

490
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: Donald Trump the election discuss. Yeah, so I think there's

491
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 1: two components here. There is the component that Elon Musk

492
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 1: is focused on, which is this idea that Twitter behaved

493
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 1: with a heavy hand that sort of reveals the way

494
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 1: that tech is out to get the right right. You know.

495
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: I think it's certainly is clear that there is cause

496
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 1: to have a debate over whether or not Twitter acted

497
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: properly when it when it, you know, muffled this New

498
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: York Post story. But I don't think that what is

499
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: revealed by the Twitter files supports Musk's argument that the

500
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: right is being unfairly censored. But then, because this is

501
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: inherently not something that's terribly important, you know, I mean

502
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 1: the idea that Twitter, which you know, a small fraction

503
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 1: of Americans use for a brief period of time kept

504
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: people from sharing the story that's not hugely consequential in

505
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: the grand scheme of things. It doesn't have First Amendment implications,

506
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 1: as a lot of people sort of insist that it does,

507
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: and so it has become this sort of mantra on

508
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: the right that this was a thing that kept from winning,

509
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 1: which by itself is just nonsensical based on everything we

510
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: know about about why Donald Trump lost in But this

511
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: is elevated of the course of the past two days

512
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 1: because it is a way of making it seem as

513
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: though the Twitter files are more important than they are.

514
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,239
Speaker 1: I liked the the Elon tweet where he said this

515
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: is a violation of the First Amendment, and then the

516
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: sort of like his Internet support system. You know, all

517
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: of the Twitter people who are like Elon fans uh

518
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,479
Speaker 1: said yes, and violation of the First Amendment is you know,

519
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 1: akin to treason, and I think you can violate people's amendments.

520
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: It's okay. The dialogue here has been pretty deranged, right.

521
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: It's sort of fascinating because all the people, all the

522
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: people who are now saying, yeah, this doesn't really tell

523
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 1: us anything new, are the exact same people who two

524
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: months ago were like, Yeah, your new verification scheme is

525
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: going to backfire and blow up in your face, right, Like,

526
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 1: there are a lot of people who know how Twitter

527
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 1: works and what it does and what it's done in

528
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,880
Speaker 1: the past, and who understand it way better than does

529
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: Elon Musk. Elon Musk has been very effective at building

530
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that Twitter is good

531
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: at is allowing people to exist within echo chambers. And

532
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: what Elon Musk has done since he took ownership of

533
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 1: Twitter as he's really he has both pushed away people

534
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: who are you know, skeptical of him, and he has

535
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: embraced people who adore him. And so he's just sort

536
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: of increased the volume of people who can participate in

537
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: these echo chambers. And so I think, you know, the

538
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: response to these Twitter files as being way over the top,

539
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 1: just really really way over the top and insisting that

540
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: there was some massive discovery here. I think that that's

541
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: particularly noxious on Twitter simply because Elon Musk is involved,

542
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: and he has done such a good job of inflating

543
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: the universe of people who agree with him on the

544
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 1: social media platform. Yeah, I mean that is what's so incredible. Yeah,

545
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: it does seem like the discourse has gotten stupider, which

546
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: I never thought possible. Sure, it's an achievement in its

547
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: own right. Absolutely, Yeah. Do you think there'll be another

548
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: Twitter file? But because we were promised more Twitter files?

549
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: Yeah we were. I mean, I I would love to

550
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: have been inside Matt Taieb's brain as he is reading

551
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: this stuff, because I like to think that he still

552
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: recognizes when nonsense is nonsense. You know, maybe that's just

553
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: me being overly optimistic. I like to think that he

554
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: sort of read this stuff. I was like, well, there's

555
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: not a lot here, but I'll do my best, right,

556
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: And so I'm curious. I don't know who is responsible

557
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: for the second cash of Twitter files, and maybe Bari Weiss,

558
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: and I like to think that she's currently you know,

559
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: if she is the person who's sort of doing the

560
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: second review, that she is currently in the same position

561
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: just being like, Okay, how do I milk this and

562
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: the attention that it's going to give me? Well, at

563
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: the same time recognizing me there's probably not a lot here.

564
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: Who knows. I may be proven wrong, maybe there's some

565
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 1: bombshell in there. I'm sort of skepticled there will I

566
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: thought it was sort of interesting that it was like

567
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:58,239
Speaker 1: people were so agitated about it and so excited, and

568
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: it was like a conviction that there was something in there.

569
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: But if you read it, you're like, and especially when

570
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: you if you look at the tweets and you see

571
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: where they matched to their you know, these inappropriate pictures

572
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: of hundre Biden, which in themselves, I mean, it's not

573
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: it doesn't really you know, yeah, I mean it's it

574
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: very much is in keeping with this recent pattern we've

575
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: seen in which, you know, it used to be the

576
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: right will get worked up over when they managed to

577
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: own the Libs, and then it's sort of evolved, and

578
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: I think it's sort of a turning point here was

579
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: that the Santists Martha has been here in Nantucketria, which

580
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: island it was when he sent the immigrants there. Martha's

581
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: when you're not nntectic because a lot of Republican donors

582
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: live on Nantucket. Very good, okay, but the response from

583
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: the island was sort of like, Okay, you're welcome, and

584
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: you know, we'll deal with you. And but it was

585
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: still treated like this massive own on the Libs. And

586
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: I think that we're sort of in the same territory

587
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: here where it this is just because it has been

588
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: presented as being a known on the libs by people

589
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: who wanted to be known on the libs. Then everyone's saying,

590
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 1: how we in the libs, even though the libs are like,

591
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: well not really, yeah, not very own. Do you think

592
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: it's true that there's this idea that Elan is sort

593
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: of rediscovering all the things that Twitter has discovered, So like,

594
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: he had this verification system and then there were all

595
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: these fakes, so now he has this new verification which

596
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: is like different color badges, or maybe he's not going

597
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: to do it at all, and then you know, he

598
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: had this you know, he didn't want to have content moderation,

599
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: but then you know, he brought Kanye back, but then

600
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: he had to ban Kanye again. I mean, do you

601
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: think he's sort of relearning everything that they have learned

602
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: in the early days of Twitter? Well, I hope he is, honestly,

603
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: you know, there definitely is sort of an ontogeny recapitulates

604
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: bylogeny vibe to this whole thing in which he's sort

605
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: of re going through all these evolutionary steps that already existed.

606
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: I think fundamentally Elon Musk is a person who has

607
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: taught himself that he knows better than everyone, and so

608
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: he came in to Twitter and had this sense that

609
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: they must be doing everything wrong and stupidly and he

610
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: could fix it. And now he's just sort of very

611
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: gradually coming back to where they were. You know, I mean, honestly,

612
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: it's the world's most suspensive done and grew experiment. Right.

613
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: He got to the top of that first hill and

614
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: was very confident, knew everything about it, and now he's

615
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: heading backed down and you know, maybe eventually he'll he'll

616
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: rise back up and expertise, but you know, he just

617
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: he just he just fundamentally didn't understand what the platform

618
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: was for and about. And he really really believed this

619
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: nonsense about conservative voices being shut out on fairly and

620
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: so on and so forth, and that's driven a lot

621
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: of his decisions since. Yeah, it's amazing stuff. So you

622
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: talked about this Georgia runoff and the idea that early

623
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 1: voting isn't as diagnostic as perhaps many in politics treated

624
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: to be. Can you talk about that, because it's like

625
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: early voting isn't diagnostic and pulling isn't right. So basically,

626
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: we have nothing to go on. Well, pulling is a

627
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: little more so, because at least you're you know, you're

628
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 1: you're able to wait things appropriately and you know how

629
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: people are saying they're going to vote. The challenge with

630
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: early voting is that in Georgia in particular, one of

631
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: the things that we've seen in the past couple of

632
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: cycles is absolutely was the case in Georgia and elsewhere

633
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: that if you looked at the mail ballot, if mail

634
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: ballot was really really big, that was really really good

635
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: for Democrats, because Democrats are voting big by mail, especially

636
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: at the height of the pandemic in twenty. But what

637
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: we also learned in twenty is that it was hard

638
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: then to engage what election is will look like. And

639
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: of course early voting tells us one thing, election day

640
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: tells us something else, and we don't know anything about

641
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: election day tell election day. And so when I went

642
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: back and looked at the numbers from the run off

643
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: in one involving our fail Warnock, and then the numbers

644
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: from last month's general election in Georgia, and really what

645
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: we see is, yeah, I mean, we should expect Warnock

646
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: to win the early vote by double digits and we

647
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: should expect hershell Walker to win election day by double digits.

648
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: And the question is, just you know what happens when

649
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: he subtracted one number from the other. And so saying

650
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: that Warnock is doing well in early voting, yeah, he

651
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: better read right, and there's no evation he's not. But

652
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: that doesn't tell us that he's gonna win lose, right, Interesting,

653
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: But then at least the midterms will be over, thank god. Indeed,

654
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: Philip talk to us about you are baby boomer buck? Sure?

655
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: So I have book coming out in January called The Aftermath,

656
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:13,879
Speaker 1: The Last Days of the Baby Boom and the Future

657
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: of Powered American. Essentially, what it does is it looks

658
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 1: at both the scale of the Baby Boom, which I

659
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 1: think a lot of people sort of under recognized, just

660
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 1: this massive, massive shift to the American economy and American

661
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: politics that last this day. But what it means as

662
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,359
Speaker 1: the baby boom starts to fade, as baby Boomers dying

663
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 1: as millennials and gen Z sort of assents I'm gen

664
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 1: x or I always leave us out intentionally because no

665
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 1: one cares about us. A good pluses. But so the

666
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 1: book is sort of an exploration what happens with politics,

667
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: what happens with the economy, what happens with culture, and

668
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: what can we not foresee happening? And of course it's

669
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: got a lot of data, lot of data analysis and

670
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: and hopefully helps shed some light on this very weird moment,

671
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: which I think is really heavily driven by generational shift

672
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: that overlaps with racial shifts and all sorts of other factors.

673
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: So interesting. Thank you so much for joining us. I

674
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: hope you'll come back in January. Anytime you want me.

675
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 1: I'm happy to Nancy Northup is the president of the

676
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: Center for Reproductive Rights. Welcome too fast politics, Nancy Northup,

677
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: it's great to be here. Molly, We're so excited to

678
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 1: have you. You are the head of the Center for

679
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: Reproductive Rights. Can you give us just a quick sort

680
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: of TikTok of what is happening right now and reproductive rights? Yeah,

681
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,399
Speaker 1: and let me just start by saying that the Center

682
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: Reproductive Rights, you know, we're lawyers, were human rights advocates.

683
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,240
Speaker 1: We work here in the United States but also around

684
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 1: the world to ensure the reproductive rights are protected in

685
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 1: laws fundamental human rights. We argued the Jobs case in

686
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. It's been a harrowing several months, but

687
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 1: you know, we haven't missed a beat. We have been

688
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 1: back at it, filing cases in state court, pivoting from

689
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 1: federal court to state court against the trigger bands and

690
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: the attempts to resurrect long enjoined meaning blocked cree row

691
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: abortion bands, as well as you know, moving forward on

692
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 1: the whole new era of states protecting this right in

693
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: their state constitutions, which is an exciting, exciting frontier. So,

694
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 1: you know, my bottom line and thinking about the Dobs cases,

695
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,280
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court and all the folks that were behind

696
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 1: having Rover verse are going to rue the day that

697
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 1: they did, because we're going to make sure that we

698
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: end up with stronger protections for access to abortion care

699
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: and the whole range of reproductive healthcare that we had

700
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: under the crumbling regime of Rowe freed up. This is

701
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: great to hear, and I love your attitude. Let's talk

702
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,919
Speaker 1: about what the mid terms look like for choice. Yeah. Well,

703
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that you know was

704
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:48,280
Speaker 1: so important was to see how these ballot initiatives played out,

705
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 1: which you know got some but not a ton of

706
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: attention before the mid terms, but abortion was literally on

707
00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 1: the ballot in five states, with Vermont and Michigan and

708
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: California asking the voters to put protection for reproductive rights

709
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 1: into their state constitutions. And then in Kentucky fighting a

710
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: ballot initiative that was designed to make sure that their

711
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: constitution did not protect abortion rights, and a Montana initiative

712
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,320
Speaker 1: it was all about stigmatizing abortion, kind of a trial

713
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: balloon to see if they could go for banning it

714
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: in their state constitution. Everything of one of those the

715
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 1: attempts to restrict abortion rights defeated in Kentucky and Montana

716
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 1: and Michigan, California, Vermont enshrined in their state constitutions and

717
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: maybe not surprising in California and Vermont, but a big,

718
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,919
Speaker 1: big deal in the state of Michigan. And before that

719
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: even you had the state of Kansas. Absolutely and there

720
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:57,280
Speaker 1: were so many doubters about the state of Kansas before

721
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,720
Speaker 1: the vote, thinking there was no path to victory. Kansas

722
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,479
Speaker 1: voters proved otherwise. And you know what people often don't

723
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 1: focus on. They focus on the politics of like did

724
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: these prevailer get defeated? And again we're now six referendum

725
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: since Dubbs, and everything of one of them has broken

726
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: four abortion rights. The setup Reprotective Rights one the case

727
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: that established the constitutional right to abortion in the state

728
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: of Kansas several years ago. And it's really strong protection.

729
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: I mean, even when it came down, it protected the

730
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 1: right to abortion Kansas, stronger than the federal constitutional right

731
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: at the time and so stronger today. It's a very

732
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 1: strong right. And the people in Kansas said, hell, no,

733
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: we don't want our rights taken away. So you're a

734
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: fancy lawyer who did law review and who rights and things.

735
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 1: And I'm curious to know, besides leading this organization, I'm

736
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: curious to know, is there a world in which we

737
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,919
Speaker 1: American women can have a protection that protects us now

738
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 1: nationally our choice? I mean, is that possible? Or is

739
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: the end of jobs really the end of national abortion rights? Oh?

740
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,720
Speaker 1: It absolutely is not. I Mean one of the things

741
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,839
Speaker 1: that people are waking up to is the fact that

742
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: Congress has the power to address the abortion access crisis.

743
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 1: And the Women's Health Protection Act was introduced a decade

744
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: ago in the US Congress because we could see even

745
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 1: during President Obama's administration, and Ginsburg is still on the

746
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 1: Supreme Court, Kennedy still in Supreme Court. We could see

747
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 1: what was happening at the state level. I mean at

748
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: the time, it felt a lot like you know, crying

749
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 1: in the wilderness right to get people to listen a

750
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,359
Speaker 1: decade ago, but it was clear. So the Women's Health

751
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 1: Protection Act introduced a decade ago and building support, and

752
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: what it does is guarantee our right to receive abortion

753
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 1: services and a right to provide abortion services free from

754
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: bans and you know, medically unnecessary restrictions and all the

755
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 1: things that have been piling on and piling on for

756
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 1: years even before the Court reverse jobs. So the Whim's

757
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 1: Health Protection Act would re establish the right to abortion

758
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: in every state. And it passed the House of Representatives

759
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:27,240
Speaker 1: twice in the past year, and it got to forty

760
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 1: nine votes in the Senate when the Senate voted on

761
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 1: it right after the leaked opinion came down. So you know,

762
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: it is going to be important for even as we

763
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,439
Speaker 1: fight these state battles, and it's important that these state

764
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 1: constitutional rights get developed in court and through ballid initiatives,

765
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 1: but ultimately, ultimately there's got to be federal legislation to

766
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 1: ensure this right across the country. Do you think not

767
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 1: having passed the E r A was a mistake that

768
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 1: sort of opened the door to some of this or

769
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 1: do you think it didn't have anything to do with us.

770
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: Are you talking about the r A back in the

771
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 1: early eighties, the failure of that campaign. Yes, I'm the

772
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: daughter of a feminist, so I always think about, like

773
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 1: our failure to pass that after bro and if that

774
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: might have compounded some of our troubles. Of course, I

775
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,760
Speaker 1: mean there was a whole crescendo towards you know, gender

776
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 1: equality that was coming up in the nineteen seventies, and

777
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things I did, you know,

778
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 1: in my early years, was work on the what's called

779
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 1: the r A countdown campaign when time was running out.

780
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 1: And uh, it would have been a huge difference the

781
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,839
Speaker 1: ARRA to pass. But you cannot blame that as a

782
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 1: failure of the women's movement. You have to remember what

783
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: the composition of state legislatures were right in the early

784
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties. They were predominantly male. You know, women were

785
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 1: not being elected to office then in the numbers they

786
00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: are today and even now, I mean there's nowhere near

787
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 1: gender pair in any legislative house, and certainly not in

788
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 1: the Congress. So you know, not for lack of trying,

789
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: not for lack of trying. You know, it is tough

790
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 1: to amend the Constitution. And the reality is the Republican

791
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 1: parties which did its stance on the e r A.

792
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: Can you say a little more about that. Yeah, I

793
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:22,240
Speaker 1: mean the whole story of how you know, women's rights

794
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: and reproductive rights was politicized. I mean people forget that.

795
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 1: You know, when Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford were running

796
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: against each other for president in ninety six, you know,

797
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: Gerald Ford was the pro choice candidate, and and you

798
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: know Carter was personally opposed to abortion, and so you know,

799
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 1: this had been a very strong bipartisan issue and it

800
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: still was. But the decision by the Republican Party to

801
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 1: politicize the issue of abortion rights and push back against

802
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: the e r A began, you know, with President Reagan

803
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 1: to be turning the tide. And one of the things

804
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: just to go back to the you know, ballot initiatives

805
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 1: that we've seen since the Job's case, but they make clear,

806
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: i mean, we know that the majority of the American

807
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:14,320
Speaker 1: public supports abortion rights, and what these balot initiatives making clear,

808
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 1: states including you know, Kansas and Kentucky and Montana is

809
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,839
Speaker 1: that when voters can vote on the policy preference, write

810
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: their policy preference, it's you know, we want to keep

811
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: our rights right. When it's confused with you know, candidate

812
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 1: preferences and party affiliations and so forth, because the issue

813
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: has been so politicized over the years, you know, you

814
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 1: see different outcomes in terms of who may be in

815
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: the legislatures, even though the policy preference of the voters

816
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:44,799
Speaker 1: is give us. This is to us as a clean

817
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 1: policy issue, we want our rights. And I think that's

818
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: quite an interesting place to be right now. So let's

819
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 1: just talk for another second about the mid terms. It

820
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: seems like there's a lot of sort of Monday morning

821
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: quarterbacking saying that actually Dobbs really helped Democrats. Do you

822
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 1: think that's true. There is no question that abortion rights

823
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 1: was a resounding issue with Democratic voters and independence right.

824
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 1: It was a really, really important issue. And I know

825
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 1: it was frustrating to you because you were clear about

826
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: it leading into the elections, and it was certainly you know,

827
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 1: we don't get involved in electoral politics. We're a nonprofit

828
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: organization that works on this from a policy and human

829
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 1: rights perspective. But it was certainly frustrating to me as

830
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 1: somebody who knew how important this issue is and how

831
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 1: it resonates with the American public. To hear like Dobbs,

832
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 1: you know, was nobody really cares? That was amazing exactly,

833
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 1: And certainly the voters came back and said, heck, yeah

834
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,919
Speaker 1: we care. So I think it's really really important. And

835
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 1: again I was in Michigan the night of the election

836
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,320
Speaker 1: because of the ballot initiative there, and but we saw

837
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 1: in Michigan right reversal of the majority in the Democrats

838
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 1: took the the Senate and the House in Michigan. Of

839
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 1: course the statewide offices um were won by the Democrats,

840
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: and you know that was huge. And I'm sure the

841
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: fact that the voting on the policy preference for abortion rights,

842
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: which was on the ballot, you know, made a big difference.

843
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: And then just to you know, conquetize what it means

844
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 1: for you know people, I was with our longtime client,

845
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: Renee Chilean, who runs three clinics in Michigan, the Northland

846
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,720
Speaker 1: Family Planning Centers, and you know, we all had tears

847
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: in our eyes when the ballot initiative passed amending the

848
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 1: Constitution because we have represented Renee for thirty years in

849
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 1: ten cases in Michigan, fighting against the restrictions upon restrictions

850
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: upon restrictions, and all of a sudden, now the words

851
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:56,800
Speaker 1: reproductive freedom are in the language of the Michigan Constitution,

852
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 1: and it is really clear how strongly it is going

853
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 1: to protect that right because the only thing that can

854
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:09,439
Speaker 1: be considered in legislation is the woman or pregnant person's health,

855
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 1: not these other concerns that the Supreme Court had allowed

856
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:17,359
Speaker 1: it its jurisprudence to allow restriction upon restriction, and that's

857
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 1: a big difference. I mean, those tears were in Renee's

858
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 1: eyes because it means that she can provide the healthcare

859
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 1: free of these restrictions going forward. Obviously we stell have

860
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 1: to implement the provisions in the Michigan you know, constitution,

861
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 1: but with the legislative change, that really should be a

862
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 1: path forward. I just want to get back to the

863
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: Stabs decision for a minute. Trump had said he was

864
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: putting these three Supreme Court justices on the court to

865
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: overturn Row. We almost sort of saw this coming. But

866
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 1: when the case, when the Job's case was argued, were

867
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 1: you surprised at just how zealotous. They were. Yeah. So

868
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 1: December one last year, when Julie Recommen and our litigation

869
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:05,320
Speaker 1: director argued the case, I was stunned by the questions

870
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 1: that were coming. I mean, we knew when they took

871
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 1: the case that the writing was on the wall, because

872
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: there was no reason to take a case that's so

873
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 1: clearly Mississippi's fifteen week band clearly violated O versus Wait

874
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 1: and even the ultra conservative US Court of Appeals for

875
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: Fifth Circuit had struck it down. So the law was blocked.

876
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 1: So the Supreme Court taking it meant that it was

877
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,879
Speaker 1: of a mind to do something about that. And so

878
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 1: but the questions that came during the hearing, you know,

879
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:42,479
Speaker 1: shouldn't we just be neutral? And what about the fact

880
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:47,320
Speaker 1: that you can drop off your babies at firehouses? Doesn't

881
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 1: that alleviate the you know, the burden of parenthood. Yeah,

882
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: that was an incredible, incredible question. It was an incredible question.

883
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 1: So it was clear that the die was was cast

884
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: during that December one argument. So we were prepared for it,

885
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: although we still didn't know whether the court would uphold

886
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 1: the Mississippi ban, but say they weren't reversing row versus way,

887
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 1: which it wasn't an intellectually, you know, honest possibility, but

888
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:21,280
Speaker 1: it was one that we were frankly concerned about because

889
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,280
Speaker 1: the worst of all worlds as they actually overturned Roversus

890
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: way and the public doesn't realize it. Yeah, it's so

891
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 1: interesting because it's like, that's what John Roberts want exactly.

892
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 1: That was his opinion, which is, I'm going to uphold

893
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: the fifteen week ban, but I'm not reversing Roversus way.

894
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 1: And there's no way to do that because in all

895
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 1: the cases for fifty years from Row on, the Court

896
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 1: was clear that ultimately a state can't ban abortion pre viability,

897
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 1: and fifteen weeks is way before viability. So it was

898
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 1: over turning Row and there would have been no there

899
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 1: would have been no you know, guard rails. Everything would

900
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: have just build anyway. It would have been slightly slower,

901
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: but not too much slower because as you well know,

902
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 1: and uh, your listeners probably know, you know, Texas had

903
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: already banned abortion. In another case we argued in the

904
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: Supreme Court last year, spid Spight, after six weeks, Oklahoma

905
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 1: had banned abortion altogether because they took the vigilante law

906
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:22,800
Speaker 1: of Texas at six weeks and they said, let's just

907
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 1: make a total band in Oklahoma. So you know, already

908
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 1: the writing was on the wall, but it would have

909
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: been more confusing, you know, for the voters. And I

910
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 1: think the fact that it's just what the Court's done

911
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: with Dobbs is clear. And I think it's also very

912
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 1: very important that we not let anyone forget how outrageous

913
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 1: and wrong the DBS decision is. And so people should

914
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 1: just walk around with the following things in their brain

915
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 1: at all times, which is that what the Jobs Court

916
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: said is if you didn't have rights in eighteen sixty eight,

917
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 1: you can't have them today. And the other thing is

918
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 1: that it completely erased women and pregnant people's experiences. The

919
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 1: decision mentions legislative bodies six times, it mentions women's bodies

920
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:17,320
Speaker 1: zero times. So those are the two things. Everybody wherever

921
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 1: you go needs to talk about those two things because

922
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 1: it's absolutely outrageous. I just want to get back to

923
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 1: this idea for a minute. One of the reasons my

924
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 1: row was decided so unilaterally was because of the high

925
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 1: level of women who were dying a sceptive uterus is

926
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 1: and you know, the doctors who refused to treat miscarriages.

927
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: We're seeing that come back, right, Will you talk about that? Yes,

928
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 1: I would say where we're seeing it the most now

929
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 1: is women who are miscaring, so they are not getting

930
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 1: the standard of care in hospitals, which is to complete

931
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: a pregnancy termination if a miscarriage means that the pregnancy

932
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,760
Speaker 1: is not viable and you do not want the patient

933
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: to go into the risk of you know, sepsis and

934
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 1: infection and dying. What's different from the pre row era,

935
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 1: which is what is making this entire post offs thing different,

936
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:18,399
Speaker 1: is the availability of medication abortion right, so people are

937
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 1: not going to back alleys and having coat hanger abortions.

938
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: You know, you can selfly safely manage an abortion getting

939
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 1: from a reputable provider, pills on the internet, terminating a pregnancy,

940
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 1: and so it is actually masking how many people are

941
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: getting abortions in states where abortion is not legal, which

942
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 1: is great, it's hugely important, although no one should have

943
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 1: to be in this gray area of the law. If

944
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 1: you're a person accessing that care, and the people who

945
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 1: are helping someone you know, get that care can be

946
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: in the cross hears of the criminal laws in these

947
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 1: states and it's so partant for people to realize just

948
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: how draconian, you know, the criminal laws are right. And

949
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 1: I also think this idea that you know you have women,

950
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 1: I mean, we heard this. We've had people who run

951
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 1: abortion clinics on this podcast and they've talked about this

952
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:16,839
Speaker 1: idea now that in a lot of these states where

953
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 1: they've banned abortion, they won't treat women who are having mischaracters.

954
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,439
Speaker 1: So you really are you have women who desperately need

955
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 1: medical assistance who are not getting it because of something

956
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:28,799
Speaker 1: that doesn't even have anything to do with that. That

957
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: is absolutely correct, and it is absolutely outrageous and unacceptable,

958
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,839
Speaker 1: and it's and it puts the you know, it makes

959
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 1: the point about why you cannot use the criminal law

960
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 1: to regulate medical care in this way. You have to

961
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: be able to have providers and patients, whether they have

962
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:55,359
Speaker 1: a pregnancy that they are looking to go to term

963
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,439
Speaker 1: with or a pregnancy that they want to end, they

964
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 1: have to be able to provide standard of care. Pregnancy

965
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 1: is a high risk proposition. It is a normal process

966
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 1: of life, but it can also be life threatening. And

967
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:15,760
Speaker 1: politicians and the criminal law, you know Texas, they're enforcing

968
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 1: a you know, ninety nine year pre rod band in

969
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: the state of Texas. That cannot be hanging over the

970
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,800
Speaker 1: head of a healthcare provider when they are trying to

971
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:28,919
Speaker 1: give their patients the best care. Nancy, thank you so much.

972
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 1: I hope you will come back absolutely, thank you for

973
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 1: keeping on the issue. Thank you great, Thanks so much,

974
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:43,919
Speaker 1: Molly John Fast Jesse Cannon. When Kevin McCarthy is not

975
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:47,320
Speaker 1: having to pretend he doesn't know what Donald Trump says,

976
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 1: comes up with great policy ideas, really truly chefs. Kevin

977
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 1: McCarthy is not yet speaker, but he's hoping to be.

978
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 1: One of the things that Kevin McCarthy is doing is, uh,

979
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 1: how do you say this in ways that are not curses? Oh? Wait,

980
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 1: we can He's Marjorie Taylor Green's I want to say consigulatory,

981
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:19,280
Speaker 1: consiguliary lap lapdog bitch. Anyway, Kevin McCarthy is doing everything

982
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 1: he can to try to make the maga's vote for him.

983
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 1: One of the things he's decided that he thinks will

984
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:29,759
Speaker 1: serve him is he's going to defund the military. Yes,

985
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy, or he's called by Trump myke Kevin is

986
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 1: threatening to defund the military if the vaccine mandate is

987
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,760
Speaker 1: not lifted to fund the police. Wasn't a dog, hey man,

988
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 1: don't threaten me with a good time. This is a

989
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 1: great message for them. This is really, really is good.

990
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 1: Stuffy defund the military, Okay, So Kevin McCarthy feels it

991
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:58,320
Speaker 1: very unfair that members of the military should be vaccinated

992
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:02,479
Speaker 1: against COVID. Members the military are vaccinated against many, many,

993
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 1: many viruses and diseases that people in America aren't because

994
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 1: of the many exotic places they go. So Kevin McCarthy

995
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,839
Speaker 1: is making this COVID exception is really silly because these

996
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,319
Speaker 1: people are getting vaccinated for things that are much less

997
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 1: occurring than COVID. But Kevin McCarthy wants to take a

998
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 1: stand against vaccines. And remember anti vaxers are a rich

999
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 1: and full part of the Republican Party. And uh so,

1000
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy has decided he will defund the military unless

1001
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 1: Joe Biden removes the vaccine requirement for military servicemen. And

1002
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:44,840
Speaker 1: let's remember who's the queen of the anti vaxers in

1003
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:48,319
Speaker 1: the Republican Party as more proof of that. That's who

1004
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 1: actually runs the party, Marjorie Taylor Green, And that is

1005
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 1: our moment of gray. That's it for this episode of

1006
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:01,640
Speaker 1: Fast Politics. Tune in at every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday

1007
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 1: to your the best minds in politics makes sense of

1008
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 1: all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard, please

1009
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 1: send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

1010
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: And again, thanks for listening. H