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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, you are listening to a Bonus episode of

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Speaker 1: I Saw What You Did.

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Speaker 2: My name is Millie.

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Speaker 3: To Jericho, I'm Danielle Henderson, and yes.

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Speaker 1: We are back to Bonus with you. This is gonna

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Speaker 1: be a good one, folks, because so I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you guys listened to Bonus episode number six. That

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Speaker 1: was the one where I went hard in the paint

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Speaker 1: about the Prince of Tides and people were completely shocked

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Speaker 1: that I was able to talk about that for more

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Speaker 1: than five seconds. People were like, I gotta we gotta

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Speaker 1: get Sisher premium for this shit, because by god, why

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Speaker 1: is this woman so insane?

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Speaker 3: That is my favorite fact that has come out of

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Speaker 3: episode six. Is it? Somebody send the serve you that

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Speaker 3: said I signed up for Stitcher Premium just to hear

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Speaker 3: Millie go hand on Prince.

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Speaker 2: I swear I had this. This friend of mine from.

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Speaker 1: Atlanta basically wrote me and was like, me and my

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Speaker 1: wife are slightly horrified, but we were there. We showed

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Speaker 1: up for you, but like, damn, and that's fine. I'll listen.

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Speaker 1: I'm used to it. When you love something that much,

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Speaker 1: you're like, it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 2: This is how I roll.

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Speaker 3: I feel you, and I'm about to give it right

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Speaker 3: back to you.

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Speaker 1: I was about to say, because right now this episode,

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Speaker 1: it's Danielle's turn. So the concept of it is we're

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Speaker 1: we're each taking turns. We're like I did one, we

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Speaker 1: will do these again. But now it's Danielle's turn to

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Speaker 1: talk about one movie that she just really needs to

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Speaker 1: talk about.

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Speaker 2: So why don't you set it all up for us?

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Speaker 3: Well, strap the fuck end, because I need not only

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Speaker 3: you want, I need to talk about a movie that

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Speaker 3: was released in twenty eighteen, directed by maryel Heller, and

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Speaker 3: the movie is can you ever forgive me? Nobody is

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Speaker 3: going to pay for the writer?

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Speaker 2: Leave Israel?

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Speaker 3: Right now, I'm months behind in my rent, I'm my

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Speaker 3: cat is sick. It's full on the afternoon. You go drunk.

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Speaker 3: I'm hardly drunk.

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Speaker 1: Great.

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Speaker 3: My suggestion to you is you go out there and

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Speaker 3: you find another way to make a living. Why did

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Speaker 3: I pick this movie to go hard on. It's a

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Speaker 3: relatively new film. We don't do those very often. I

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Speaker 3: can tell you that I've seen this movie I'd say

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Speaker 3: minimum twenty times since it came out. Minimum. It is

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Speaker 3: to me a feel good movie, which I know is

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Speaker 3: a very fucked up thing to say.

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Speaker 2: Now I get it. I'm about to tell you I

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Speaker 2: get it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is see simpod Yeah. Man, it's a feel

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Speaker 3: good movie to me for several reasons. But I also

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Speaker 3: just I appreciate the way that this movie was developed,

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Speaker 3: the way that it handled its subject matter, and the true,

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Speaker 3: the true comedy of it. There's some comedy in this movie.

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Speaker 3: That is, it's a drama. This is a drama, but

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Speaker 3: the comedic moments hit so hard because it's just how

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Speaker 3: people talk, and it's just these little inflections and these

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Speaker 3: little moments that had me just sucked right the fucking

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Speaker 3: I love this movie. So a little bit of backstory.

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Speaker 3: It stars Melissa McCarthy, Richard E. Grant, who was nominated

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Speaker 3: for an Academy Award and I believe a Golden Globe

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Speaker 3: as well for this movie. Dolly Wells, who's a supremely

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Speaker 3: underrated actress. She was in that movie. She's been in

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Speaker 3: several movies, but she also was in that TV show

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Speaker 3: on HBO called Doll and m which is based on

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Speaker 3: her real friendship with the actress Emily Mortimer. I believe

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Speaker 3: she co wrote the series. Fantastic actress We've also got

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Speaker 3: a nice little appearance from Jane Curtin, who I'm thrilled

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Speaker 3: to see anytime she's on screen lover. And Anna Devere Smith,

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Speaker 3: who is just one of the most stunning playwrights. If

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Speaker 3: you're not familiar with her work, I highly recommend that

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Speaker 3: you get familiar with her work. She wrote a brilliant

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Speaker 3: and beautiful play about the la Riots following the Rodney

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Speaker 3: King Verdict. She just does a lot of great work

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Speaker 3: about critical race theory in the modern era. And she's

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Speaker 3: also a great actress.

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Speaker 2: She's so good in this movie.

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Speaker 3: Ah so good, right, I just I love so much

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Speaker 3: about this film that I can barely contain it. It

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Speaker 3: was directed by maryel Heller, who first kind of came

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Speaker 3: to prominence she was an actor, but she kind of

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Speaker 3: came to prominence as a director with her film diary

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Speaker 3: Teenage Girl, which was based on an incredible graphic novel.

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Speaker 2: And great movie.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she's got and she's got a real What I

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Speaker 3: like about mariel Heller, she's got this real eye for

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Speaker 3: telling true stories about women. So you when I feel

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Speaker 3: like when I watch her films or when I watch

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Speaker 3: her work, you're not looking at this kind of, you know,

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Speaker 3: puffed up version of what people think women are like,

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Speaker 3: she's really kind of ripping something back and showing you

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Speaker 3: more of an underbelly of what I think people rarely

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Speaker 3: get to see about women on film. And I just

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Speaker 3: love her work so much, and she's just phenomenal. But

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Speaker 3: this is a movie that's based on a true story,

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Speaker 3: and it is a true story of the writer Lee Israel.

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Speaker 3: So some backstory on Lee. Lee Israel was a biographer.

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Speaker 3: She's a freelance writer in the sixties. She did a

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Speaker 3: profile of Katherine Hepburn for Esquire in nineteen sixty seven,

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Speaker 3: which is how she ended up with a personal note

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Speaker 3: from Catherine Epburn on Catherine Hepburn's stationary. And then she

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Speaker 3: did biographies of other women who again were kind of

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Speaker 3: interesting and complicated, like Dorothy Kilgallen to Lula Bankhead and

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Speaker 3: Este Lauder what happened to her? And maybe I think

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Speaker 3: part of the reason I really love this film is

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Speaker 3: that it was almost like a cautionary tale for me

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Speaker 3: personally in a way. So I just identified with so

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Speaker 3: much because she's a writer who we're not seeing in

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Speaker 3: her prime, We're not seeing someone who has a sterling

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Speaker 3: or even steady career. She is struggling, and she's a

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Speaker 3: struggling writer in New York as Lee Israel was so

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Speaker 3: Lee Israel in her late forties, you know, not really bankable,

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Speaker 3: so to speak. And truly, the thing that really gets

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Speaker 3: me about the way she was conveyed in this film

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Speaker 3: not likable. She's a real son of a bitch Le Israel,

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Speaker 3: and she says it like she wants to say it,

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Speaker 3: you know, she just she puts it out there. She

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Speaker 3: doesn't sugarcoat anything, and she's not really kind or likable

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Speaker 3: in a lot of ways. So she had this career

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Speaker 3: as a biographer, started to kind of tank, you know,

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Speaker 3: she wasn't really bankable anymore. So she started working where

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Speaker 3: she could. She took gig jobs. She was a copywriter,

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Speaker 3: she was you know again, she went back to kind

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Speaker 3: of a nine to five sort of gig and that

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Speaker 3: was hard and it wasn't really working for her. She

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Speaker 3: was in debt and she had issues. So she started

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Speaker 3: selling letters that were written by actors and stars of

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Speaker 3: the time of you know, times past, and the film

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Speaker 3: is portrayed as her first letter that she sold to

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Speaker 3: collectors was her Katherine Hepburn letter, but that gave her

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Speaker 3: the idea that she could not only sell more of

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Speaker 3: these letters, but create more of these letters. So she

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Speaker 3: started doing forgeries, and she was eventually convicted of literary

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Speaker 3: forgery in nineteen ninety two. She forged more than four

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Speaker 3: hundred letters, and not only forged them, but she started

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Speaker 3: stealing real letters from archives and libraries, so she's charged

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Speaker 3: with this class D felony. Eventually, she wrote a memoir

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Speaker 3: called Can You Ever Forgive Me, based on her experiences

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Speaker 3: before she died. Be really cool if she wrote it

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Speaker 3: after she died, though, write like a little hand from

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Speaker 3: it up.

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Speaker 2: I mean, do it in a second click click click.

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Speaker 3: If I'm still writing after I die, I want you

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Speaker 3: to genuinely put me in some kind of soul rocket

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Speaker 3: and just shoot me into the sun like I'm do

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Speaker 3: no more work, no more work.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, that would be you would be in

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Speaker 1: hell maybe, who knows.

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Speaker 3: Well, if I'm still working from beyond the grave, I'm

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Speaker 3: in hell for sure.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, So that's what this movie is based on.

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Speaker 3: And Melissa McCarthy plays Lee Israel, and it tells a

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Speaker 3: story of these forgeries, how they began, and also she

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Speaker 3: had an accomplice. She had an accomplice, this friend named

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Speaker 3: Jack Hawk, who was played by Richard E. Grant in

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Speaker 3: the film. And what a character he was in this movie.

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Speaker 3: I think he deserved every award nomination he received. So

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Speaker 3: beyond being this story of this complicated woman who's kind

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Speaker 3: of struggling, it's also a really interesting story of friendship.

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Speaker 3: To me, like something I've never seen on screen before.

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Speaker 3: Now that I've given some background about the real woman,

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Speaker 3: I think we're going to stick more with the film

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Speaker 3: because that's what we're here to talk about.

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Speaker 1: Well, I was going to ask you, I mean, maybe

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Speaker 1: you don't even know. I don't want to set you

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Speaker 1: up for something that you maybe couldn't answer for me

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Speaker 1: because i'd actually never heard of Lea's reel at all.

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Speaker 1: First of all, I want to say, for the record,

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Speaker 1: this is a first watch for me, and I was

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Speaker 1: totally I went and totally blind.

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Speaker 2: I really didn't know what the story was about.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know Lea Israel at all, and it's fascinating

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Speaker 1: because she was sort of you know, she seemed to

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Speaker 1: have done a lot of biographies about classic film stars,

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Speaker 1: so it's weird that I didn't even know her from

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Speaker 1: any of that. I just didn't know her at all,

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Speaker 1: and so I was I had to do like a

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Speaker 1: I fell into a hole afterwards, Yeah, trying to like

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Speaker 1: look her up and kind of figure out what she

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Speaker 1: was about.

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Speaker 2: So do you know like much about her?

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Speaker 1: I mean, is basically what was was she like accurately

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Speaker 1: portrayed in this in terms of like, she obviously did crimes, right,

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Speaker 1: but she also was like she lived in New York

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Speaker 1: and she drank a lot according to the story. So

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Speaker 1: I wasn't sure if all that kind of tracked. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you know about her a lot.

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Speaker 3: I'm just curious, well to mine. And again I found

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Speaker 3: out about her when this movie was announced, So I

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Speaker 3: didn't know about her either. And I think it's because

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Speaker 3: she was disgraced. You know, she was really disgraced, as

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Speaker 3: you know, from the literary community and from most of

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Speaker 3: the communities that she was in. But she nobody wanted

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Speaker 3: anything to do with her really, So from my knowledge

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Speaker 3: of reading about how the film was developed, it's pretty

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Speaker 3: close to how she was as a person. And there's

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Speaker 3: some you know, some videos you can find and interviews

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Speaker 3: and things like that that she did on the news

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Speaker 3: and all that kind of stuff. So the details I'm

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Speaker 3: not sure of, Like I don't know if she actually

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Speaker 3: had a cat that was sick, you know, but from

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Speaker 3: the personality point of view and how she was, I

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Speaker 3: think they probably they stayed pretty true too.

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Speaker 2: It got it interesting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And this is and again, this is a film

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Speaker 3: that had a bunch of of stumbles, Like it had

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Speaker 3: one big stumbling block, which is that the movie was

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Speaker 3: originally slated to have Nicole Holliff Center direct it and

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Speaker 3: Julianne Moore star in it. Oh wow, Yeah, and then

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Speaker 3: it fell apart. And the only thing I was able

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Speaker 3: to find out is that it fell apart because of

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Speaker 3: like the creative differences. I don't know who had the

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Speaker 3: difference is, I don't know what the differences were. But

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Speaker 3: the movie did not end up being released with Nicole

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Speaker 3: Holliff Center directing and Julianne Moore starring. So when maryel

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Speaker 3: Heller took the helm, she wanted to keep a lot

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Speaker 3: of the script that Nicole Halliff Center had written, so

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Speaker 3: that's why she's credited as a writer. And then Melissa

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Speaker 3: McCarthy was the one who said I'm interested in this,

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Speaker 3: and I read one article on screen Rant Daily where

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Speaker 3: maryel Heller was talking about how this was actually a

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Speaker 3: big risk for Melissa McCarthy. She usually plays a very

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Speaker 3: comedic actress. She's, you know, kind of a pratfall kind

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Speaker 3: of actress in a way, even though she doesn't really

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Speaker 3: fall down the lot, but like in that genre, like

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Speaker 3: she's the comedic relief, and so this was a big dramatic,

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Speaker 3: meaty role for her. And I love Julianne Moore more

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Speaker 3: than I can even express right now on this particular pod,

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Speaker 3: but I think she was the that Melissa McCarthy was

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Speaker 3: the exact right person to play this role.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was curious about that after you said it,

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Speaker 1: because now I think, having seen it, I don't see

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Speaker 1: julian more playing Lee Israel. I mean, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what the real Lee Israel looks like. But for me,

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Speaker 1: I did enjoy because, first of all, I think Melissa McCarthy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I like when she has dramatic roles, and

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Speaker 1: you're right, she doesn't play them often, and she also

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Speaker 1: is that type of actress too. We kind of talked

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Speaker 1: about this a little bit when we talked about like

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Speaker 1: Betty Davis in Baby Jane, Melissa McCarthy is not afraid

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Speaker 1: to look dowdy or old, or she's not afraid to

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Speaker 1: like not wear makeup or anything like that, And I think, like,

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Speaker 1: I love that about her, Like I love that that

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Speaker 1: she can really like reach into like a real person's

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Speaker 1: life and be and look like a real person and

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Speaker 1: not this like movie star trying to look like a

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Speaker 1: real person, because you so often see that in movies,

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Speaker 1: especially movies like this, where it's like, oh, you have

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Speaker 1: this like beautiful young actress playing like a lonely writer

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Speaker 1: and she's beautiful and young.

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Speaker 3: All she has to do is take off her glasses

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Speaker 3: and she's a model. And guess what, when I take

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Speaker 3: off my glasses, I'm still a goblin.

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Speaker 1: So I'm glad that you said that she actually, for you,

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Speaker 1: was the perfect person to play it, because perfect. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: after you said Julian Moore, I was like literally like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I could see that, but I

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Speaker 1: can't see it.

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Speaker 3: And the only way I could see it was with like,

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Speaker 3: you know, like a horrible fat suit or something that

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Speaker 3: is just so actively not making her the real person.

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Speaker 3: You know, I think it would it would take too

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Speaker 3: much artifice to make her real and that just feels

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Speaker 3: like a backwards way way into it. But Melissa McCarthy

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Speaker 3: again stunning woman, beautiful and also willing to go here

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Speaker 3: with the prosthetics and the wigs and everything, and just yeah,

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Speaker 3: just beautiful portrayal of a real person. And that is

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Speaker 3: something that I think is is the primary reason why

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Speaker 3: I like this movie. The movie itself, it's kind of ugly,

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Speaker 3: it's grim. It's a grim fucking movie. And there are

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Speaker 3: a few points that I'm going to hit upon, as

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Speaker 3: you know, the distinctive reasons why I love the ugliness

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Speaker 3: and the griminess of this film. But starting first and

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Speaker 3: foremost with this apartment. It is a terrible but well

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Speaker 3: lived in New York City apartment, and everyone tries to

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Speaker 3: capture that on screen, and I don't think anyone's done

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Speaker 3: it as well as they've done it in this film.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was to me really cozy in good and

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Speaker 1: bad ways, don't get me wrong, but like definitely what

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Speaker 1: I would see, you know, as a writer's place, Like

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Speaker 1: it's just kind of like their little bunker with books

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Speaker 1: going to the ceiling and you know, just that kind

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Speaker 1: of like lived in a little dark.

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Speaker 2: I loved the apartment. I don't you know.

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Speaker 1: I don't like eventually what you find out about the apartment.

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Speaker 1: It hasn't been cleaned in a long time, but a

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Speaker 1: looks alone, it felt very cozy to me.

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Speaker 3: And there are moments like there's this one moment where

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Speaker 3: Lee Israel Mussa McCarthys le Israel reaches up to get

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Speaker 3: a box and she kind of pulls from a tall

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Speaker 3: shelf to get some paper and all these papers start

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Speaker 3: fluttering down. And I don't know why that stands out

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Speaker 3: to me as such a distinctive moment, because I think

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Speaker 3: it's because it just feels so real when you live

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Speaker 3: in an apartment for fifteen years in New York and

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Speaker 3: you're just trying to find a place to just fucking

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Speaker 3: put something that's where it's gonna end up, and you're

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Speaker 3: gonna remember that it's there because you can't help it.

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Speaker 3: You look at it every day, and it's those kinds

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Speaker 3: of moves that I just really appreciated, And also just

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Speaker 3: again right off the bat first, you know, first or

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Speaker 3: second scene, you're looking at her having bugs like flies

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Speaker 3: on dead flies on her PI and she just wipes

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Speaker 3: them off and turns it over and goes to sleep.

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Speaker 3: And I'm like, this telegraphs again so much to me

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Speaker 3: about who this person is and how lived in that

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Speaker 3: apartment is with them in it, like what they've adapted

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Speaker 3: as the attitude of living in a space like that,

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Speaker 3: which is, oh, well, fuck it, I got to go

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Speaker 3: to sleep anyway. And you know, we see later in

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Speaker 3: the movie that she asks her super for an exterminator,

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Speaker 3: but because she's behind in her rent, he doesn't even

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Speaker 3: answer her, and so she's just living in this filth

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Speaker 3: and it kind of squalor, and then trying to create

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Speaker 3: in that, and trying to keep her career going in that,

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Speaker 3: and trying to come up with a new idea for

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Speaker 3: a book, and trying to get her agent to pay

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Speaker 3: attention to her. That to me is again primary reason

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Speaker 3: why I really love this film. Those moments.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you just said a mouthful, because honestly, that was

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Speaker 1: my favorite part of this movie was the tiny little moments,

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Speaker 1: like the production design moments that informed you so much

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Speaker 1: about who this person is. Like at the beginning of

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Speaker 1: the movie, there's this scene where Lee goes to her agent,

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Speaker 1: her book agent or her book publisher and goes to

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Speaker 1: this like literary party or whatever, and there's a moment

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Speaker 1: where she goes into the guest bathroom and she pulls

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Speaker 1: back this like I guess it's like a drawer or

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Speaker 1: curtain or like a cabinet, and there's like dozens of

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Speaker 1: half used rolls of toilet paper, meaning like a toilet

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Speaker 1: paper roll like right before it ends, right like about

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Speaker 1: halfway finished or less, and they're just stacked in the

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Speaker 1: in the cabinets. And and essentially, like Lee goes to

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Speaker 1: her publisher or whoever the character her agent and it's like,

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Speaker 1: why do you have like all these like little half

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Speaker 1: used rolls of toilet paper in your cabinet? And she

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, because I want the guests to be

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Speaker 1: able to use a new role. And the weirdest part

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Speaker 1: about that is that I just literally went to a

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Speaker 1: house within the past month where I saw the same thing.

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Speaker 2: No, and I couldn't.

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Speaker 1: And I could not understand why. I was like puzzled,

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Speaker 1: like and I wasn't snooping, Don't get me wrong, I was.

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Speaker 1: It was basically on a shelf, like a visible shelf,

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Speaker 1: and there was a bunch of like half used rolls

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Speaker 1: of toilet paper stacked up, and I was like, what

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Speaker 1: the hell is that about Like.

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Speaker 2: That's so weird to me.

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Speaker 3: It's like psychosis.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: And then after I saw this, I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's the reason. And then I'm like, wow, that says

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Speaker 1: a lot about It really says Okay, it says a

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Speaker 1: lot about her agent, but it says more about Lee

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Speaker 1: and sort of like why she would find that weird. Like,

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Speaker 1: so you're basically in the scene going, Lee is not

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Speaker 1: that person. She is not this person who cares enough

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Speaker 1: to fucking start a new role for guests at a

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Speaker 1: book party.

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Speaker 3: She's exactly person right. She does not care about comfort

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Speaker 3: for herself or others.

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Speaker 1: I love that stuff, and I was happening all throughout

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Speaker 1: the movie and it was It's great.

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Speaker 3: Loved it completely, and I think in the same vein

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Speaker 3: the thing. The other moment that I really need to

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Speaker 3: talk about with this film is how before Lee discovers forgery,

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Speaker 3: she is charting, because again this is set in nineteen

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Speaker 3: ninety one, and she is charting bags and bags and

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Speaker 3: bags full of books two bookstores to sell them in

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Speaker 3: order to get cash to live. And just you know

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Speaker 3: that kind of ironic shift of a writer who's selling

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Speaker 3: books so they can live, coupled with the absolute, that

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Speaker 3: bone crushing misery that only cities can provide, where they

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Speaker 3: make every single thing you have to do as difficult

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Speaker 3: as possible. So she goes in to sell these books.

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Speaker 3: They only want two of the books, and they're only

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Speaker 3: going to give her two dollars for those books, and

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Speaker 3: then they expect to just take the rest of the

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Speaker 3: books back, and she's like, please, I carded these here.

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Speaker 3: I don't want them in my house. You didn't even

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Speaker 3: have to pay me for them, just take them. And

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00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 3: that kind of again, those those built in miseries that

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Speaker 3: are so specific to not just a type of city,

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Speaker 3: but a class of person living in that city. Like

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Speaker 3: I was that person. I remember selling CDs, I remember

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Speaker 3: selling books. I remember having to bring my personal belonging

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Speaker 3: somewhere with the hopes that I could leave feeling lighter

393
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Speaker 3: in more ways than one. Yeah, I love those moments.

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Speaker 3: Just nailed those moments.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there was There was so much of this and

396
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Speaker 1: it just was really kind of like, you know, it

397
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Speaker 1: all contributed to the personality of who Lee was, and

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Speaker 1: her character is so fascinating to me because Okay, I

399
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Speaker 1: want to go back to you talking about how this

400
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Speaker 1: was a feel good movie.

401
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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, because.

402
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Speaker 1: People are going to be like, what, But honestly, I

403
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,400
Speaker 1: get you because for me, I think that the thing

404
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Speaker 1: that I loved that this was about a queer woman

405
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Speaker 1: writer in a time in New York in the early

406
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Speaker 1: nineties where gays and lesbians were not today, and I

407
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Speaker 1: think that was such an important part of the story

408
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Speaker 1: for me. It was just knowing that about them and

409
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Speaker 1: knowing that this is taking place and it's sort of like,

410
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Speaker 1: you know, the HIV AIDS era in New York, And

411
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Speaker 1: I don't know, I just think that setting it in that.

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Speaker 2: World made me like the movie a lot.

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Speaker 3: More absolutely, And I think, I don't know if it's

414
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,679
Speaker 3: the same way for you, but I felt like the

415
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Speaker 3: importance of that for me is that we were looking

416
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Speaker 3: at two people who are outliers because of their queerness,

417
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Speaker 3: but then they are also outliers within the queer community.

418
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Speaker 3: So they are not fitting in in any way that

419
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Speaker 3: they are told they need to fit in in some

420
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Speaker 3: ways are resisting it. And I think it's to find

421
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 3: your tribe without that community, that instant community that you

422
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 3: don't fit into, it takes a little bit more effort,

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Speaker 3: and I think that's why their friendship was a little

424
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Speaker 3: bit more vibrant to me because they were making an

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Speaker 3: effort to be in each other's lives, right.

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Speaker 1: But also too to that point, it's clear that Lee

427
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Speaker 1: is an introvert, right and Jack isn't. Jack is like

428
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Speaker 1: way more in the mix, and you know, he has

429
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Speaker 1: you know, many dates, and he kind of goes out,

430
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Speaker 1: he likes to go dancing, and she's.

431
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Speaker 2: The total opposite.

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Speaker 1: And so it's nice to see these two different energies

433
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Speaker 1: kind of come together because you're right there, like there

434
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Speaker 1: isn't monolithic queerness or monolithic gayness. That to me was

435
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 1: important to see the sort of the two different energies

436
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 1: of their friendship kind of come together, you.

437
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:54,399
Speaker 3: Know, completely. And those introverted moments were so important and

438
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 3: so poignant as well, like that one scene where Lee

439
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 3: is sitting on the couch watching an older film. You

440
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 3: might know the film, I didn't, but she's watching this

441
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:03,679
Speaker 3: older film.

442
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 2: Yeah I thought I did, but I was like, I

443
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 2: don't think I know this one.

444
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 3: But she's talking along with this movie. And I love

445
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 3: that moment so much. Of someone who is an introvert

446
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 3: and gets her joy from watching something that is comfortable

447
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 3: for her. That is outside of the norm of what

448
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 3: other people are watching. She's not watching friends, she's not

449
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 3: watching anything like that. She's watching an old movie that

450
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 3: she can quote verbatim because it is important to her life.

451
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 3: That moment killed me, like those moments kill me in

452
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 3: these small, heartbreaking ways. But just weighs it again like this.

453
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 3: To me, it's this movie is an incredible character study.

454
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh absolutely. I mean it's not lost on me

455
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 1: that she's like an old movie head. It really is,

456
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: because a lot of what people love about old movies

457
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: is glamour, is excitement, is a sort of different way

458
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: of life that they don't have. I mean, shit, if

459
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 1: you want to get down to brass tacks, that's what

460
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 1: I love about old movies. That's why I you know,

461
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: I think most people that like movies and are really

462
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 1: passionate about them love the escapism of them, you know.

463
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 1: And so that in all these little moments kind of

464
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 1: really came together and just sort of crystallized who the

465
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 1: Lee character was.

466
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 2: And then you.

467
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: See sort of her potential flirtation with the bookshop woman,

468
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: and that I don't know if that part was a

469
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: part that you were really gonna talk about, because I

470
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 1: was like yeah, that to me was like one of

471
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: the real estates ever, Like I was just like wow, okay,

472
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 1: like definitely, yeah, stunning.

473
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 3: And its accuracy, and it's true. I love that whole

474
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 3: relationship because I think from the beginning, you've got someone

475
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 3: who won does not know. Lee Israel in this film,

476
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 3: when flirting with this character does not know that she's

477
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 3: being flirted, Like she just does not even conter that

478
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 3: someone is flirting with her, that Anna is flirting with her.

479
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 3: And I love that that She's just kind of like, well,

480
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,719
Speaker 3: here I am selling my books, selling my letters. And

481
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 3: then when she does catch on, like Anna just gave

482
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 3: me her number, like I should do something about this.

483
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 3: They go on the most awkward date of all time

484
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 3: where at the end she just kind of leaves, and

485
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 3: it's so fucking real because it's like there's no big

486
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 3: send off, there's no passionate kiss, there's no any it's

487
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,440
Speaker 3: just like, this was an awkward date. I don't know

488
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 3: what to do. I'm going home and she does.

489
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 2: There's that moment where.

490
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: Where Lee's like, well, I need a drinking buddy, and

491
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 1: Anna just basically like shuts the menu and is like, well, yep,

492
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: that's what I'm working with, Like, I didn't say this

493
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: right at all, and I was just like, it's so

494
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: funny because I've been both.

495
00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 2: But I've been the.

496
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 1: Absolutely clueless person who's on a date with somebody who

497
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 1: is showing that they like me and that I'm like,

498
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 1: don't know what to say and just flub it epically.

499
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: But then I've been the other person. I've been the

500
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: Anna character where somebody just says the one thing that

501
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: you like, don't want to hear, and it just kills

502
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: the vibe.

503
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 3: It's so bad that and especially because you can tell

504
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 3: that Anna's the kind of character who has a really

505
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 3: hard time opening up in that way and connecting. And

506
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 3: so when she says because she's inging towards it, she

507
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 3: you know, Anna is not, you know, the polar opposite

508
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 3: of Lee. They're actually very compatible, but she's inging towards

509
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 3: this notion of I like you, I like you, I

510
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 3: like you and her the thing that she says is

511
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 3: when Lee says, you know, I like being alone, and

512
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 3: Anna says, well, you don't like being alone all the time,

513
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 3: like you're here with me right now, and then that's

514
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 3: when Lee says, well, I always need a drinking buddy.

515
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 3: That is the most painful scene I never experienced in

516
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 3: the theater. I sank into my chair, sank when I

517
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 3: saw that scene, like fucking hell. But this is also

518
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 3: this other, this unforeseen layer as well, where Lee was

519
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 3: falling for someone that she was actively scamming. Yeah, so

520
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 3: she's creating her own complications here about that, And that also,

521
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 3: to me was translated beautifully in that moment and in

522
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 3: that date where it's like, you don't really know, is

523
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 3: Lee pulling back because she's just not a romantic person

524
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 3: and doesn't want to invite this, especially once we get

525
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 3: to know more about her ex and her relationship with

526
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 3: her ex. Or is she truly just afraid to engage

527
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 3: further with Anna in a deeper level because she's scamming

528
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 3: her constantly, selling her forgeries constantly.

529
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard to say, because I you know, there

530
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 1: is that element to it. And this is what really

531
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: stresses me out about like scam.

532
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 2: Stories and like scam movies, is.

533
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: The anxiety of being found out.

534
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 2: A bit of getting busted.

535
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 1: And there's I don't know, just a lot of a

536
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: lot of points in the film where obviously like it's

537
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: at a certain point she's getting away with it.

538
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 2: She's getting away with it.

539
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 1: Then she goes to meet with that one guy in

540
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: you know, the blondehaired guy, and he kind of gives

541
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,719
Speaker 1: with that split second extra look that's like, you know,

542
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: some people may not be you know, doing the right thing,

543
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: and it kind of lets a dangle for a brief moment.

544
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: She's like that moment of where she's realizing, oh, maybe

545
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: somebody's onto me now, I mean, honestly, like that type

546
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: of situation is so stressful. I mean honest I think

547
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: it's just kind of a primal fear thing of like.

548
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 3: And it's it's exacerbated by the fact that she was

549
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 3: gaining confidence. You could see her gaining confidence in her

550
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 3: ability to do this, this work, like this is what

551
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 3: she came to see as her purpose. And so as

552
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 3: you see in the film, she's going around, you know,

553
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,239
Speaker 3: it's kind of timidly for selling letters and can't she

554
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 3: cannot believe it's working, and then very quickly becomes like

555
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 3: a virtuoso in forgery and it's just slamming stuff on

556
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 3: the counter, like yep, you're gonna want to buy this

557
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 3: for a thousand bucks and look at this one and

558
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 3: it's truly shocking in a beautiful way to see her

559
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 3: crestfallen and when she starts to realize that people are

560
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 3: onto her, and how she becomes so much more of

561
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 3: an interior character again after that moment. So to see

562
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 3: someone who doesn't have a lot of confidence outwardly gain

563
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 3: confidence and then lose it, I think is just again

564
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 3: that ebb and flow of this film. Those are the

565
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 3: moments that kill me. I really want to talk about

566
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 3: in terms of her being a virtuoso, the methods that

567
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 3: she used to create these these letters. So it started

568
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 3: out with just trial and error, and she tried to

569
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 3: freehand signatures that didn't work, turned her TV on its

570
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 3: side and used it as a light box and started

571
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 3: copying the signatures directly. She bought different typewriters for different writers.

572
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 3: She would put paper in the oven to age it

573
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 3: and bake it. I mean, this was truly a lot

574
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 3: of effort that she went through to affect this lie. Yeah,

575
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 3: I just love seeing it. I love that those moments

576
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 3: where you're getting to see not just the fact that

577
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 3: she's written it or typed it or done it, that

578
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 3: she's putting such tremendous effort into it. More so than

579
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 3: her own work, because she's starting to become known for

580
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 3: the letters, even though they don't know that they're faked.

581
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 3: So there's this one point where she's talking to Jack,

582
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 3: and this is after she's not just forging signatures or

583
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 3: you know, kind of adding one or two. She's writing

584
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 3: entire new letters, like all the letters are fake from

585
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 3: time to bottom. And she says to Jack at one point,

586
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 3: I'm a better Dorothy Parker than Dorothy Parker because people

587
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 3: are like quoting her and they can't believe these letters

588
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 3: that she's finding, you know, quote unquote. So the heartbreak

589
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 3: of that for me as a writer in seeing that

590
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 3: she's doing her best work and will never be recognized

591
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 3: for it. She is quite eloquent and quite funny and

592
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 3: will never be recognized for it, not in a positive way,

593
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 3: and so all the effort that she's putting in is

594
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 3: lost because of the of what she's doing.

595
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 2: Right, heartbreak it is.

596
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: I want to step out of the plot and just

597
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: ask you a general question about letters. Ye Okay, there's

598
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: so much in this movie that references like the market

599
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: for these letters right about, like you know, somebody like

600
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: paying wanting to pay like two hundred dollars for a letter,

601
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: nineteen hundred dollars for a letter, and then.

602
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 2: The there's that whole like I don't.

603
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: Know if it's a convention or like a like a

604
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: ahll of letter writing market where a bunch of people

605
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: are like selling letters of famous people to each other.

606
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 2: Now.

607
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: I kept thinking about this as I was going through this,

608
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: because I was like, no disrespectfull the Israel because she

609
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 1: did make bank on.

610
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 3: What she did. Right.

611
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: However, would I ever buy a letter from a famous

612
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: person that was written to somebody else that I don't know?

613
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 3: For me?

614
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: I feel like, I don't know unless they wrote it

615
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: to me, right, that's something that I would treasure and keep.

616
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: But I can't imagine like buying a letter that has

617
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: nothing to do with me. It's just sort of like, Okay,

618
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: Truman Capodi wrote this letter to somebody that I don't

619
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: know from, and I'm going to spend two thousand.

620
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 2: Dollars on it. I don't know. Maybe that's just me.

621
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 3: I am right there with you. I think it is

622
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 3: one of those strange collectible markets that has popped up

623
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 3: over time and out of intense out of the intensity

624
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 3: of love for something that somebody had or a person

625
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 3: or you know, that's it sprang up around that. I'm

626
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 3: not that person. I don't put a lot of stock

627
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 3: in items that don't directly have anything to do with me.

628
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 3: But personal letters to me feel so different. Yeah, it

629
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 3: feels like such a different thing to be excited about.

630
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 3: And I think that if the letters are revealing, then

631
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 3: somebody will write about it, you know, like we found

632
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 3: this letter and she says, you know, she dated five

633
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 3: guys at once, Like somebody would write about that. But

634
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 3: it is it's a strange market. I agree basically that

635
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 3: it's a strange market, and it really just speaks to

636
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 3: how arbitrary it is because the pricing ranged so much

637
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 3: depending on who wrote the letter. And again, for something

638
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 3: that's not personal, I just don't understand how you put

639
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 3: a price on that.

640
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, because that was another fascinating thing about the movie

641
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: was that when she was going to these sellers and

642
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 1: they were kind of discussing the metrics that they would

643
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: judge a higher price letter versus a not so high

644
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: high price letter, and it was basically like, whoever it was,

645
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: one of the characters basically says, oh, yeah, they don't

646
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,879
Speaker 1: really a lot of times if these letters don't say

647
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 1: anything interesting that They're just like, hey, what's up, how

648
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 1: you doing?

649
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 2: Okay, bye, And it.

650
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 1: Would be more money if they said something like meteor juicier, right,

651
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,280
Speaker 1: And that's what I was thinking too, because I was like, Okay,

652
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,720
Speaker 1: if I was reading a letter from you know, Catherine

653
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,800
Speaker 1: Hepburn to Spencer Tracy that was basically like, Yo, what's up, honey,

654
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: better be naked when I get home or something, you know, like,

655
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: I would maybe buy that letter because I know both

656
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 1: parties involved and I can understand the history of it.

657
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: Like if I saw a letter from Dorothy Parker to

658
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 1: like fucking Robert Benschley or whoever from the Algonquin round table,

659
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 1: maybe I would pay for a letter, knowing that the

660
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 1: two people were very famous and they had the letter

661
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 1: was an exchange of their friendship. But if it was

662
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 1: like Dorothy Parker writing to her great aunt, right and

663
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: saying really much an oven? Why would I own that

664
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: and frame it? I don't know, that's just me. I'm

665
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 1: maybe I'm stupid and ignorant, So I'm with you.

666
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 3: I think it is a very niche market for a

667
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 3: reason because it is only interesting to certain people, and

668
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 3: only they can tell you why it's interesting to them.

669
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 3: There's no like universal like, yes, letters are interesting. And

670
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 3: as somebody who you know, I still write letters. I'd

671
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 3: be fucking horrified if somebody decided to sell one of

672
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 3: my letters that I wrote a personal letter to a friend.

673
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 3: I would be horrified if any of that shit ever

674
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 3: came out and saw the light of a day. Like,

675
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 3: it's not for you, it's for them. That's that's the

676
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,359
Speaker 3: beauty of the relationship, is that I'm writing this for them.

677
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 3: But I think that maybe that's part of it, is

678
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 3: that in a time where letters were more common. Yes,

679
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 3: maybe that was part of the draw, is like, you know,

680
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 3: these are famous people. We know they're writing letters because

681
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 3: it's how you communicate. It's kind of like how like

682
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 3: you know people hack emails and hack the cloud. Now,

683
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 3: maybe that was part of the draw, is like we

684
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 3: want to get this glimpse into their personal life because

685
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 3: back in the day, you only knew a celebrity from

686
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 3: the thing they were famous for.

687
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, and just the idea of the authentication process too,

688
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 1: because obviously she got busted after the Noel Coward thing

689
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 1: where basically she writes this fake letter where he is

690
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: talking very free and easy about the fact that he's gay,

691
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 1: and somebody authenticated it and said, no, he would actually

692
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: not talk about that because he was closeted, and that

693
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 1: essentially starts this chain of events that where she gets caught.

694
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 2: And so I just think that's interesting.

695
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about that world, so I'm just

696
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:44,399
Speaker 1: I was very fascinated by that part.

697
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 3: There's actually, and I don't remember the name of it,

698
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 3: maybe Alex, I don't know if you can look it up.

699
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 3: There is a documentary about bookstores that came out recently,

700
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 3: like within the last two years, and I watched it

701
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 3: and it does kind of explain a little bit, not

702
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 3: necessarily about letters, but it does explain a little bit

703
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:05,280
Speaker 3: about the world of collectors and people who specifically collect books,

704
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 3: because books are wild, Like there are books that are

705
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 3: you know, the cover is made out of human skin.

706
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 3: You know, there's like, you know, a book where it's

707
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 3: like only one edition was ever made. That I can

708
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 3: understand a little bit where you're kind of on the

709
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 3: hunt for something unique. But you're right, like the letters is,

710
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 3: it's a strange and personal thing to collect, and I

711
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 3: think that to me would have been the primary signal

712
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 3: that these were forgeries. I say, as someone you know

713
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 3: in hindsight who knows this story. But the fact that

714
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 3: she had so many of them that she was willing

715
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 3: to sell, yes, thank you. The documentary is called The Booksellers,

716
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 3: And the fact that she had so many of them

717
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 3: I thought should have tipped someone off long before she

718
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,399
Speaker 3: was actually caught. But it's an interesting world. It's an

719
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 3: intricate world, and I think it's it's again. The thing

720
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 3: that we're looking at in this film is someone who

721
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 3: is turning to a life of crime as a way

722
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 3: to survive. She's staying connected to the thing that she's

723
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:06,720
Speaker 3: passionate about. She's still keeping herself in this literary world,

724
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 3: just not in the way that she wants. And I

725
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 3: just loved it. I love this movie. I could watch

726
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 3: it over and over and over again.

727
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, obviously I haven't even asked you about

728
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:23,800
Speaker 1: the cat. I mean, I just that whole Oh gosh.

729
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 3: The heartbreak of this cat. So this is a cat

730
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 3: that's twelve years old. You know. Lee Israel in the

731
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 3: film has this very old cat. And part of the

732
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 3: reason that also sets her off on this journey is

733
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 3: that her cat gets sick and she takes it to

734
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 3: the vet and they say, we cannot treat your cat.

735
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 3: And because you have a bill, an outstanding bill with us,

736
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 3: and the bill is for eighty two dollars and she

737
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 3: doesn't have they're asking her to pay for half of

738
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 3: it before they can see your cat. And she does

739
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 3: not have forty one dollars. And if you have ever

740
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 3: been there in your life, you know the pain of that,

741
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 3: even if it's not related to a pet, just the

742
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 3: abject pain of no longer being able to care for

743
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,800
Speaker 3: even the most basic things. Because again, she had a

744
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 3: pretty great career for a while, and I'm sure that

745
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 3: when she was getting book advances, and you know, she

746
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 3: didn't take this cat thinking there's going to be a

747
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:17,879
Speaker 3: day that comes when I'm not going to be able

748
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 3: to take care of this thing. So it compounds her

749
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 3: own misery that her cat is also ill and that

750
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,919
Speaker 3: she can't care for the cat, just the notion that, again,

751
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 3: this is someone who on the on the outside does

752
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 3: not appear to be a terribly caring person, but has

753
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 3: given all of her love and care to this pet.

754
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 3: And it's it's devastating. It's devastating to watch that she's

755
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 3: putting all of her love and care into an ailing pet.

756
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, gosh, who hasn't been there? Who you know?

757
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: Honestly, there are so many moments of this movie, these

758
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 1: little moments that really connected me to her, and it

759
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: was definitely the pets. It was heartbreaking, you know, to

760
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: watch her kind of plead with the veterinarian assistant, like

761
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:14,240
Speaker 1: my cat is sick and no, I don't have forty

762
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 1: one dollars, I have fourteen dollars. Like it was sad

763
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,959
Speaker 1: because it's like that desperation of just wanting to take

764
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: care of this thing that has that is this is

765
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 1: very pure and doesn't want anything from anybody, and that

766
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 1: you are bonded so closely with that animal was so sad.

767
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:35,879
Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean there's just.

768
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 1: Like these these tiny moments where you really got the

769
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 1: scope of sort of her inner life, of Lee's in

770
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 1: her life, and it was anytime they would talk about

771
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 1: her pet, when they would talk about her apartment, when

772
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: they would kind of talk about her as a writer

773
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 1: and how she felt like that that one scene very

774
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 1: early on in the movie where she basically goes to

775
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: her agent and is like, I need a book deal, Like, yeah,

776
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 1: come on I Did X, Y and Z, And her

777
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: agent is basically telling her, like the writing is on

778
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: the wall, like you can no longer write these like

779
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:20,720
Speaker 1: biographies of like these fuddy duddies celebrities, these old celebrities.

780
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 2: That no one gives a shit about anymore.

781
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 1: And I mean, I won't talk about this too much,

782
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:31,240
Speaker 1: but I'm like, I understand the pain of appreciating something

783
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:36,359
Speaker 1: that the modern world does not value, okay, and just

784
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: being like not able to understand sort of like why

785
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 1: can I be a writer? It's because everything that I'm

786
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 1: interested in is not syllable right completely.

787
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 3: And her agent tells her that flat out nobody knows

788
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 3: who the Israel is because you have buried yourself behind

789
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 3: your subject. And so she tells her at one point,

790
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 3: you know, if you really want to make it as

791
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 3: a writer, and if you want to make money, you

792
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 3: have to either become a different person, or you have

793
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 3: to find your own voice and write about things in

794
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 3: your own voice, not about other people, but about the

795
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 3: things that you know will help you stand out. And

796
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:22,240
Speaker 3: it's brutal because I feel like there's no we're watching

797
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 3: this woman out of time kind of who you know,

798
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 3: there's no value in what she has to offer, but

799
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 3: she also can't and won't and really shouldn't have to

800
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:35,280
Speaker 3: change that in order to survive. And it's again these movies,

801
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 3: any movie where someone is falling through the cracks, I'm

802
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 3: instantly there like that. I don't know why I gravitate

803
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,879
Speaker 3: to those kinds of films, but I love it. I

804
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 3: love looking at through this movie in particular, these types

805
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 3: of people and types of jobs and types of skills

806
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,479
Speaker 3: that we just let fall by the wayside and kind

807
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 3: of do not care what happens to the person at all.

808
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 3: It does break me down, but it's all inspiring in

809
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 3: a different way.

810
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.

811
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 1: And you know, the best part that happens after that

812
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 1: moment at her editor her agent's office, is where she's

813
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: basically going off on Tom Clancy and she's.

814
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 2: Basically like, how does this guy get millions of dollars?

815
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: And he's like a fucking joke, And you know, the

816
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 1: Jane Curtin.

817
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 2: Character is like he plays the game.

818
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,240
Speaker 1: And I just kept thinking about that in a modern

819
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: context as a writer. I mean, maybe you can speak

820
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,320
Speaker 1: more to this than I can, but like it's almost

821
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: like Lee's problem, that essential problem, which is that she

822
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 1: just wants to write. She wants to write about subjects

823
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 1: and not about herself, and she wants to just do

824
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 1: this for the rest of her life. It almost like

825
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 1: that that simple request is almost unheard of these days

826
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 1: because so much of being a writer is about like

827
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 1: being a personality and being a brand and being on

828
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: social media.

829
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 2: I mean, I just thought she if she could not

830
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 2: cut it in ninety one, no man.

831
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 3: Not now, Oh no, she'd be able to cut it down.

832
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 3: And that is it is something that makes maybe that's

833
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 3: why identify with this movie so much. Yeah, so much,

834
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:13,800
Speaker 3: because it does make me feel out of place sometimes

835
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 3: because I'm very much that person where I thought, you know,

836
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 3: I think to myself, I did not become a writer

837
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 3: so that I could be out in front of a

838
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 3: camera or be seen, or be a personality or be

839
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 3: any of that. Like I enjoy being behind the scenes.

840
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 3: I enjoy this being the way that I communicate. And

841
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 3: I don't want to do the other stuff. I don't

842
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 3: want to have to, you know, start the accounts and

843
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 3: do the interviews and do all that. I don't want

844
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 3: to play the game sometimes, and at my core I

845
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 3: never want to play the game. But as a realistic person.

846
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 3: I know that I have to give a little bit

847
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 3: for That doesn't mean I'm not proud of the work

848
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 3: I do and I don't want to promote it or

849
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 3: support it, but I don't think that should be my

850
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 3: job as the person who writes it.

851
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean, honestly, like it seems to me

852
00:45:57,920 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: like a lot of creative people, not just writers, but

853
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: a lot creative people are not you know, that they

854
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: are more kind of inward and less sort of like, oh,

855
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 1: I just want to be a performer. You know a

856
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,439
Speaker 1: lot of times people who write, and you know, people

857
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: who do things behind the scenes like it that way,

858
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 1: and they don't want to be in front of the

859
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,359
Speaker 1: camera speaking on behalf of the things that they do.

860
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:24,280
Speaker 1: They just want to write it and get it done.

861
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: That's that to me was interesting. That was a huge

862
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 1: part of the movie for me.

863
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, because it's the great the greatest fallacy of

864
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 3: the modern age is that everyone wants to be famous.

865
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 3: And that's not true. It's not true. Some people just

866
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 3: want to survive, and some people just want to get

867
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 3: by doing the thing that they love. Not everyone wants

868
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 3: to be famous, Not everyone wants to be seen. Not

869
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 3: every everybody wants to or needs to be in front

870
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 3: of a camera to have their lives validated from the

871
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 3: outside in. And I think when you take an introvert

872
00:46:56,040 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 3: who's probably more prone to that method of thinking, it

873
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 3: is the most disastrous thing you can introduce to their life.

874
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 3: The fact that they have to be so they have

875
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 3: to act in a way that is so antithetical to

876
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 3: who they are as a person in order to do

877
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:13,760
Speaker 3: the thing that they want to do that is soul crushing.

878
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:14,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

879
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 1: And just to have that option presented to her where

880
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 1: it was like you either have to be a completely

881
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 1: different person.

882
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:24,800
Speaker 2: It's like not possible, not possible.

883
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 1: Why is that even you can't even bring it up

884
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 1: if you wanted to, like in this case.

885
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 3: And she's in early forties at this point, Like even

886
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 3: if she wanted to change, there's no change, Like you

887
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 3: are set in in so many of your ways. The

888
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 3: shifts that you can make at that point are not

889
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 3: personality bending.

890
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that was the big to me, one of

891
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: the best scenes and the reason why I love the

892
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: scene with her and her ex when they meet up

893
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: and they talk, was that that was the first moment

894
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: that Lee was basically like, you're the only person that

895
00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 1: really knows me, and I'm the least guarded around you,

896
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 1: and I'm struggling and I just need to have some

897
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 1: kind of access to you right now to kind of

898
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 1: go through what I'm going through. And the ex is

899
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: basically like, it's not my job anymore, like you're no

900
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 1: longer my business. But I could completely understand that, and

901
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: her in that moment for the lead character, she was like,

902
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 1: I need to like be in a comfort zone if possible,

903
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 1: you know.

904
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 3: And she doesn't trust a lot of people. She doesn't

905
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 3: let a lot of people in, she doesn't have that

906
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 3: relationship with a lot of people, and it's just again

907
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 3: another layer of heartbreak to see her trying to tangibly

908
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 3: get something from someone that they're no longer willing to

909
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 3: give because it is a job. And that's something that

910
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,279
Speaker 3: I love about that scene as well, is that her

911
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 3: ex gives her the business. And this is the character

912
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:53,799
Speaker 3: that Anna Devere Smith plays, Elaine, and she tells her

913
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:57,359
Speaker 3: about herself like you were really fucking hard to live

914
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 3: with and she feels you're not having that job, And

915
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 3: it's heartbreaking on both sides because I feel like, God,

916
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 3: how miserable for Lee to hear that that she was

917
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 3: a project for someone that was difficult to complete, but

918
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 3: also how miserable to say that to someone. To really

919
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 3: drive home the point of why you can't be there

920
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,879
Speaker 3: for them anymore is that they are too much for you.

921
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's so much like It's interesting.

922
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:25,359
Speaker 1: I keep going back to this idea of it being

923
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 1: a feel good movie, and I think the reason why

924
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: for me.

925
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 2: Is that I feel like this is one.

926
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 1: Of the most I don't know accurate is the word,

927
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,240
Speaker 1: but this is one of the most the truest, most

928
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 1: honest portrayals of like loneliness, Yes, that I think I've

929
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 1: seen in film, Honestly, Like I was really like taken

930
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 1: aback by just the trueness of it. And for some

931
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 1: reason that sort of feels comforting. And I don't really

932
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 1: know why that is. I think it's because you're always

933
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,399
Speaker 1: in your own loneliness and you always convince that you're

934
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 1: the only person that feels this way, and so when

935
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: you see it in a story or like in a movie,

936
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 1: or in a language that's not yours, that it was

937
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 1: told to you in a song or something like that,

938
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 1: it is like kind of this the feeling is the confirmation,

939
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 1: you know, And I think that's why this movie I

940
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 1: think is as good as it is, but also the

941
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 1: reason why it might maybe be feel good.

942
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 3: I don't know where.

943
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 1: It's, you know, but for me, that's kind of how

944
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 1: it felt, which I was like, Wow, it's getting to

945
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: these really dark moments and that is sort of comforting

946
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 1: to me for some reason.

947
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 3: I completely agree, and I agree that the thing that

948
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 3: makes it feel like a feel good movie to me

949
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 3: is that you're seeing loneliness validated but also told in

950
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 3: a true way, and that is something I'm not used,

951
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 3: not accustomed to seeing. And I wouldn't even say that

952
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 3: my life is as lonely or as die as you know,

953
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:05,800
Speaker 3: Lee Israel in this film, but there's so many different

954
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:08,800
Speaker 3: levels of loneliness that they portray or that Mariel Heller

955
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:12,759
Speaker 3: portrays that. I feel like it's easy to find yourself

956
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,799
Speaker 3: in moments where you have felt that at some point,

957
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 3: and it is really powerful to know in that subversive,

958
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 3: kind of inadvertent way that you're alone, but you're being seen.

959
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,399
Speaker 3: And that's kind of all anyone wants, even if you're

960
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 3: especially if you're an introvert, like okay, you see me,

961
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 3: but you're not going to like fuck with me too much.

962
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 3: But I feel great that you know what I'm going

963
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 3: through or that you can see how I am or

964
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 3: why I am the way I am. And yeah, it

965
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 3: feels it feels powerful, I think. And it's also you know,

966
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 3: I joke about it being a cautionary tale because I'm

967
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,399
Speaker 3: a writer, but I think that there What feels good

968
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 3: to me also is seeing all the ways that this

969
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 3: writer was willing, the lengths that she was willing to

970
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 3: go to to kind of engage with her craft is

971
00:51:57,560 --> 00:51:59,399
Speaker 3: what makes it feel like a good, feel good movie

972
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 3: to me. As well. Well, it doesn't work out at

973
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 3: all and she does something highly illegal, but just seeing

974
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:10,280
Speaker 3: the passion, seeing passion come out of a passionless person

975
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 3: makes me feel good.

976
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, because at the end of the day, she did

977
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 1: have I mean she had.

978
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 2: This movie is about friendship. She had a friendship.

979
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,879
Speaker 1: She obviously had love in her life with her animals,

980
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 1: so it was that kind of thing.

981
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 2: Whereas as much as it.

982
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 1: Was grim and dreary and lowly in many parts of

983
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: this movie, there was these bright moments for her. And

984
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 1: I think too, like you just said, I mean, she

985
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: didn't give up on herself. I mean basically that was

986
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 1: the thing. She didn't give up. She basically just like

987
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: took a different road. But you know, she's like a try.

988
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 1: She needed to survive, and she survived, right.

989
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 3: And I like what you're saying there about her not

990
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:56,319
Speaker 3: giving up on herself, because that's something that also is

991
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 3: very easy to pick up on in this film that

992
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 3: I also please love. She likes herself just the way

993
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:05,839
Speaker 3: she is. Yeah, she's not trying. It's not that even

994
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 3: that she can't change. She doesn't want to change. She

995
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:12,280
Speaker 3: likes herself, as cerbic as she is, as off putting

996
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 3: as she is, she likes herself. And you don't get

997
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 3: that narrative with women who don't fit in the norm

998
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 3: very often. It's usually like I need to change something

999
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 3: so I can fit in, or you know, I like myself,

1000
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,799
Speaker 3: but I'm condemned to a life of weirdness and loneliness

1001
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,359
Speaker 3: and a castle because of it. I like that she's

1002
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 3: just plopped in the middle of the biggest city on Earth,

1003
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 3: or one of the biggest cities on Earth, and she's like,

1004
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 3: fuck you deal with it. I like myself the way

1005
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:40,760
Speaker 3: I am. You know, when she quits that job, early

1006
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 3: in the in the film, and again small moments that

1007
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 3: matter a lot to me. She dumps out the ice

1008
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 3: of her glass. She downs her glass of whiskey, dumps

1009
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 3: the ice, and then puts the glass in her bag

1010
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,400
Speaker 3: like she's leaving nothing. She will not let any of

1011
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 3: these people take anything from her.

1012
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 2: I love that.

1013
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 3: I love that so much.

1014
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 1: Man.

1015
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 3: And she likes herself like she's cool with who she is,

1016
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:09,239
Speaker 3: even though it is detrimental to how she lives. Yes,

1017
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:12,319
Speaker 3: I love this movie. I could talk about it for

1018
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 3: another hour.

1019
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 2: You're You're more than welcome to by the way, But I'm.

1020
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 3: Just saying that, like, I'm so glad we got to

1021
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 3: talk about it. I'm so glad you got to see it. Yeah,

1022
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 3: because I know that you did tell me that you'd

1023
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 3: never seen it before. And I'm glad that you saw

1024
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 3: it and liked it because I had a feeling it

1025
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 3: would be right up your alley.

1026
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:33,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, really liked it a lot. I liked everything about it,

1027
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:35,960
Speaker 1: just like the story. I liked it was based on

1028
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 1: a real person. I like the people in it. I

1029
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 1: liked the vibe. I liked you know, the hair, the clothes.

1030
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 3: The nineties of it all.

1031
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,400
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, it was. It was great. I loved that

1032
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 1: it was about, you know, a gay writer. I love

1033
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 1: that it took place in New York. I mean, there's

1034
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 1: just everything. It hit on a lot of different levels

1035
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 1: for me.

1036
00:54:57,520 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 3: So thank you, of course, thank you for letting me

1037
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 3: talk about it. This is wonderful.

1038
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 1: Listen anytime you know that this is what we do

1039
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:07,959
Speaker 1: on this podcast. You listen to me talk for over

1040
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 1: seventy minutes about goddamn Barberstreis, and so anytime you want

1041
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 1: to do it, just let me know.

1042
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 3: Thanks friend, Well, thanks for listening to our bonus.

1043
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 1: Yes, thank you so much to all of the people

1044
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 1: who have signed up.

1045
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:26,280
Speaker 2: First at your premium.

1046
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 1: If you want to buy some merch from us, we're

1047
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 1: at the exactly right store. We've got T shirts, mugs, sweatpants, everything,

1048
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:39,280
Speaker 1: lots of different sizes.

1049
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:41,840
Speaker 2: And then I don't know. Social media.

1050
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, find us on Twitter and Instagram, find us on

1051
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 3: our email. If you want to write to us, you

1052
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 3: can write to us at I saw add pot at

1053
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:54,919
Speaker 3: gmail dot com. We love hearing from you. And yeah,

1054
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:57,440
Speaker 3: watch this film, get get into it. Get pick one

1055
00:55:57,480 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 3: movie that you're just like, I love this movie so much,

1056
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 3: watch it again. Just give yourself a day or two

1057
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 3: to really get into it, spend some time with it.

1058
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:14,919
Speaker 2: Awesome. Thanks everybody, until next time. Bye.

1059
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 3: This has been an exactly right production. Our producers Alexis Aamressi,

1060
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 3: Our engineers Annalise Nelson. Our theme songs by Tom bry Foegel,

1061
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:26,839
Speaker 3: artwork by Garrett Ross. Our executive producers are Georgia hart Stark,

1062
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:30,120
Speaker 3: Karen Till, Gareth and Danielle Kramer. Follow us on Instagram

1063
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 3: and Twitter at I saw pod email us at I

1064
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 3: saw you did pod at Gmail and please don't forget

1065
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 3: to listen, subscribe, leave us a review on Apple Podcast, Stitcher,

1066
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 3: or wherever you listen