WEBVTT - Does micromanaging actually work? 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.360 Hey everyone, Manny here before we get to today's episode, 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:05.920 I wanted to bring your attention to the no such 0:00:06.040 --> 0:00:09.960 thing listener survey. By filling out this survey, you will 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:12.879 help us make this show better. You hear from us 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:15.600 all the time, but now it's time to hear from you. 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:17.600 Is it the case that we talk too much and 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:20.400 you want to hear more from experts? Or do you 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:23.680 think shockingly that we don't talk enough. Are the episodes 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:27.360 too short or are they too long? Please consider filling 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:30.400 out this survey and helping us make this show just 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:32.480 a little bit better, even though that's a little hard 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:35.120 to do because the show is already fantastic. You can 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:38.199 find the listener survey in the show notes for this 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:42.760 episode and in our newsletter at no such thing dot show. 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:57.520 Enjoy today's episode, gas, I'm Manny, I'm Noah. 0:00:57.600 --> 0:00:59.480 This is Devin and this is no such thing. 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.400 The show resettle our dumb arguments and yours by actually 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:06.640 doing the research this week. Does micromanaging actually work? 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:14.200 I know there's no no such thing, no such thank. 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:17.200 Such, thank. 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:29.200 Touch, thank touch, thank so. We got a question from 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:34.600 a listener on management styles asking about micromanaging versus quote 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:37.960 unquote free range, which gets better results. We're going to 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:40.319 talk about that and a few other work related topics 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:43.760 and questions, but let's start with our own histories. How 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:48.440 do you boys feel about micromanaging slash management styles? And 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:53.360 you know we're sitting here with a manager ourselves, Devin, Devin, 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:56.280 you are a manager to both of us in different capacities, 0:01:56.760 --> 0:01:57.960 wanting you talk a little bit about that. 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:01.280 Yeah, I guess I did manage you, or attempted to. 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:04.040 Let's say, yeah, what. 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:05.640 Is my management style? 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:08.639 I would say, well, I I guess you guys can 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:10.480 fact check me on this, but I would like to 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:15.400 think that I don't micromanage people. I try to manage 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:16.959 people the way I like to be managed, and I 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:20.399 really hate being micromanaged. Yeah, in my mind, if you're 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:22.880 going to micromanage me, why don't you just do the job, 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:24.880 Like I don't need to just be doing extra stuff 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:28.440 at work just to stay busy. So in the situations 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:31.240 that I have been in with managers who micromanage me, 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:34.280 I often just say, well, instead of you know, both 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:36.919 of us watching this video leaving notes, how about you. 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:40.080 Just watched the video notes and I'll just do something else. 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:44.720 So Yeah, my style is like you sure to set 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.320 someone up, you give them what they need to do 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:49.280 to job, and then you check in. 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:51.559 I feel like it's been mostly successful. 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:55.880 There are instances where you get someone who takes advantage 0:02:56.080 --> 0:03:00.360 of someone who's not micromanaging and then doesn't really do anything. Yeah, 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:02.840 but I think those people are few and far between, 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:06.160 And I don't think micromanaging a person who doesn't really 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:11.640 do their work is helpful either, because you're just taking 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:13.800 the time that you would be doing something else to 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:15.480 basically do the job as well. 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:16.799 So I feel like. 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:18.200 If you have people on your team who you feel 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:20.119 like you need the micro manage, you need to get 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:23.440 them off of your team because like you're just wasting 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:26.040 your time by doing double the work. 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:26.840 Yeah. 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:29.360 To me, it's always just like we need expectations to 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:32.560 be clear, whether that's deadlines or how things should be 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:34.760 when it's when a deadline does come or something, Because 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:38.240 I think someone who's maybe doesn't have a lot of 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:39.760 work experience might just show up and be like, I 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:42.080 have no idea what I'm doing, and then if their 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:44.920 manager is not telling them, then they're like, well what 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:45.720 am I supposed to do? 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:46.200 You know? 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:49.080 So they need that handholding, but hopefully that's only a 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:51.280 temporary thing and then they're on their own. 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:52.680 That's a really good point. 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:54.160 If you're not going to micro manage, you got to 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:57.680 really set expectations because lines and what's expected of people. 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:00.640 Because then as a freelancer more recently, I've had jobs 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:03.480 where I I'm on call or something and then it's 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:05.480 like I'm kind of just waiting for stuff and it's like, 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:07.680 all right, I know this thing ultimately has to be 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:09.760 due on Friday, but like do you want to see 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:12.560 something before then, or like you know, and it's just 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:14.160 on me to send it, and like I'll get it 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:15.720 done and send it just so it's off my plate. 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:18.279 But it's like yeah, sometimes a little bit like am 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:21.320 I doing enough for you? Or it's sometimes more helpful 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:23.599 for there to be some middle ground of like Okay, 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:26.599 let's get one cut on this stay and then something 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:30.200 else the next day a milestone and yeah exactly, versus 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:32.600 like it's really annoying though when it's someone every two 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:33.839 hours being like, hey, do you think you'll have this 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:35.160 edit done? And it's like no, it's going to take 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.960 four hours just to export it, so you know, or whatever. 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:40.800 So we should note too that like we've always been 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:43.440 working in media, Yeah, there might be some fields where 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:46.440 micromanaging might be more required if you're I don't know, 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:50.360 a nuclear plant or something, throwing that up as an example. Yeah, 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:54.920 we are in media, and Devin had always to me anyway, 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:56.880 or both of us, I imagine, been kind of a 0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:00.839 bigger picture manager, like you know, think about this over 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:04.400 the course of these few months, versus being in every edit. 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:07.080 That's true, doing this, this and this. However, you know, 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:09.880 there were other times when Devon wasn't our boss exactly, 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:11.520 and someone else would come in and there was a 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:15.640 lot more micromanaging, and that does make the work experience 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:20.480 more strenuous, I think, especially because Devin was our manager 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:24.440 and we were also friends or like you know, or 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:26.440 I at least liked each other on the very beginning, 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:29.480 and then other people will come in and you're just like, actually, 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:32.279 I can hear that from Devin, but hearing the same 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:34.400 exact thing from you is much worse because I don't 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:35.080 like you as much. 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:40.240 Also, I say bias not only in being friends, but 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.520 I know Devin can like. So we're editing videos I 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:46.560 know Devin has edited, and you can do it. I've 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:50.200 had managers who, as far as I know, haven't edited videos, 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:54.280 so they're coming to me with notes or feedback, which 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:55.960 sometimes is valid. You don't need to be a video 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:59.320 editor to say this video looks horrible, right, obviously, but 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:03.240 the spectations are maybe misaligned with the reality of the 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:05.760 footage in what we have and the time and all this, 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:08.000 and it's like, Okay, Devin's not going to give notes 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:11.120 that are insane because he knows that's going to take 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:15.040 way more work or whatever, versus other times, I've had 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:17.680 managers who feel like they're leaving notes because they need 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:21.040 to say something to say they did something. Yeah, yeah. 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:22.960 Otherwise it's like I could have just sent this to 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:26.160 your boss ahead of you, and you know, we don't 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:28.560 need to exist. So it's the middle manager issue. 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:32.039 And there are some people who are good at managing 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:34.919 and some people I just aren't. Like I was in 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:38.839 charge of someone at Business Insider once and I realized 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:40.680 how bad I was at being a manager. 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:43.039 Yeah, Like they just kept away. 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:47.040 They just kept asking me, like, you know, what should 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:49.040 I do today? Or like what do you think about this? 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:50.840 What do you think about this? I'm like, just you 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:53.960 I don't know, use your brain. Get like I'm busy, 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:56.680 Like I've really got other shit to work on, and 0:06:56.720 --> 0:07:00.080 that's terrible, Like you're not, that's not, that's not. I 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.480 immediately realize, oh, I should not be managing anyone because yeah, 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:05.080 this is not a good dynamic. 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:08.040 Like, but I guess what do you guys think as 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:12.520 far as if we're doing micromanaging versus free range? What 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:15.760 do you think is more productive? And I guess this 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:18.840 could be twofold for you for an employee and as 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:22.000 a manager or a company side, what do you think 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:23.800 actually would get better results? 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:28.520 I think free range with clear expectations, in clear goals. 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:33.040 Because I've been micromanaged, I've been with managers who are 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:36.040 more free range. I guess there's no advantages to me 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:40.680 of being micromanaged. There are sometimes advantages to the free 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:45.400 range thing, but free range with no clear goals or 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:48.600 expectations it's also very annoying. 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:50.360 Yeah, you're kind of set up to film, yeah. 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:52.560 Because then you're just doing stuff in a bubble and 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:55.040 then you're manager who hasn't been around for a month 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:56.800 shows up and it's like, this is not what I 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:59.120 wanted you to do, and it's like, well, you gave 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:00.720 me no goals expectations. 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:03.040 Yeah, yeah at all, So like here's just what we've 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:03.520 been doing. 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:07.480 But yeah, you know, I also hate managers that are 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:10.080 just micromanaging and looking over your shoulder because it's like 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:12.040 you put me in this position for a reason. Yeah, 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:14.880 like let me do the job, give me some room 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:18.160 to sort of figure it this out. So yeah, I 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:22.280 would prefer free range with clear expectations and clear goals 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:25.560 and like regular check ins. Yeah you know once a week. 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:27.560 Yeah that's enough. 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:31.080 It's kind of a happy medium between yeah, the two styles. 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:33.160 Yeah, if I'm going you know, if I'm not doing 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:35.719 what you expect in that week, let's talk about it then. 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:39.240 But like every like you're saying these hourly daily check ins, 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:42.199 it's just like it's unnecessary. It doesn't give people enough 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:44.640 time to like figure stuff out, and like you got 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:47.440 to break some stuff and like do some things that 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:49.440 don't work to figure out what does work. 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:54.880 Well said spoken like a true middle manager, I guess 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:58.600 before we give artics to it, Like Devin, it's interesting thinking, 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:03.040 as you know, because even middle managers say they have 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:06.360 I mean, I manage a team too at BI, and 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:09.760 it's really frustrating because when you're the middle manager, you 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:12.520 don't have the power to do anything. So all you're 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:15.280 doing is filtering down what's being passed to you. So 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:16.760 they say, oh, we want more of this sort of thing, 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:18.959 then you have to do that, and then the people 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:20.520 below you are like, well, I don't really like that, 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:23.839 and you're your hands are tied because you don't even 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:26.040 you don't have power to decide really what you're doing. 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:28.920 You're just you're basically just a spokesperson, yeah, the messenger. 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:32.520 And it's like incredibly frustrating because no matter what you do, 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:35.120 it's like your boss is probably getting stuff from someone 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:37.960 way above them and you know that, and it's just 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:41.080 like there's not the transparency of just like hey, this 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:44.839 is no one wants to do this. Someone thinks it's 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:47.199 a good idea and that might not even correlate to 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:50.760 numbers or anything. Yeah, so it's to me, I mean, 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:53.439 that's almost a worse I feel like it's almost worse 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:56.480 to be micromanaged, say, but as a middle manager than 0:09:56.600 --> 0:10:01.200 this as the lower level employee. Yeah, where it's like 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:06.080 you can't do anything except maybe micromanager check in and 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:07.400 do annoying things like that. 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:11.800 It's like, so much of middle management is like like 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:15.040 kind of being like a like a hostage negotiator to 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:17.920 some degree, right of like, all right, nobody wants to 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:20.240 be doing this, all right, the people in charge, here's 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:23.080 what they want. How do I communicate this to the 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:25.079 people who are actually doing the work in a way 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:28.640 that makes them not want to kill themselves? Yeah, exactly, 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:31.040 short of do to work in a way, and then 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:34.840 how do I communicate their concerns to upper management in 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:35.280 a way. 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:36.360 That they're going to be receptive. 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:38.640 Yeah, So it's a lot of Yeah, a lot of 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:42.920 middle management is just like playing politics, and I think 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:45.720 people deal with that in different ways. Like you were saying, Man, 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:49.000 I think some people, when they get that pressure from 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:52.120 upper management, they the way they deal with it is 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:55.280 like by micromanaging and being super in the weeds. 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:55.760 Yeah. 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:59.000 Many Where do you fall on the micromanaging to free 0:10:59.080 --> 0:10:59.960 range continuum? 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:00.559 Yeah? 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:03.480 My, I guess you know. My only kind of intrude 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:08.000 to this conversation is that one time I managed someone 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:11.559 and I was in favor of a kind of a hands. 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:15.640 Off like I'm not doing this, I'm not really managing 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:16.640 figure it out. 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:19.800 You're technically under me, but you just go do your 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:20.160 own thing. 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:24.480 Well, I guess you know obviously without getting into details, 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:29.640 you feel like that hurt your employees though, oh yeah, yeah, 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:31.760 like I so you think, I mean you think really 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:33.480 probably a medium happy. 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:35.679 Medium would be good. A medium would be good. And 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:38.480 at the time I was like, I then told my 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:41.040 manager at the time, like, I'm not this isn't for 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:43.559 me and it's actually bad for the intern. 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:44.120 Yeah. 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:47.840 So then we fixed that situation yet. 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:59.160 Eliminated that position. We got a solution, You're gone. I 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:00.040 think we basically all like. 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.920 Can I provide a counterpoint? And I just thought of 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:07.199 just in this moment case a real one. 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:13.960 I do wonder at times if younger or more entry 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:17.319 level people suffer from the more free. 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:19.559 Range form of management. 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:22.720 In a lot of places that I've been at, the 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:28.280 people who, like you know, younger people who are just 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:31.520 have more of that quote unquote entrepreneurial spirit of just 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:33.760 like I'll figure it out, I'll look it up myself, 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:38.319 like I'll just get yeah exactly, who just need sort 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:41.840 of less handholding tend to perform well because managers often 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:44.600 don't have time to like sit down with someone and 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:48.200 like coach they actually teach them. So it's basically like 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:50.719 entry level people are basically just kind of doing the 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:52.760 job that everyone else at the company is doing, but 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:57.800 they're just paid less or less experienced versus, you know. 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:00.560 And I think in an ideal world, that person is 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:04.880 being coached more. They're you know, they're getting more sort 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:09.600 of like hands on feedback, and there is more of 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.760 a like easing you into the job. Yeah, Like that's 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:15.680 not really how work works nowadays. It's like you sign up, 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:17.760 you got the job. Congrats, You're gonna do the job 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:19.840 everyone else is doing. You're just gonna get paid less, 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:22.600 and sure you won't be as good at it. But 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:26.560 I think the people who I've seen suffer from that 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:32.400 lack of micro managing are those younger people who don't 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:35.920 quite have you know, they're just like not naturally good 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.440 at the thing or they need more like step by 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:41.559 step directions on how to do those things, and those 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:44.360 people tend to not last at the companies that I've 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:44.679 been at. 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:47.280 Yeah, so we'll hear all about this and hopefully get 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:50.600 some answers when we talk to Eric Baker, a Harvard 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:54.040 lecturer who specialized in the history of labor and management 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:55.080 after the break. 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:06.640 All right, fellas, I need you to help me with 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:08.640 a problem that I got. You know, usually we're the 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:11.120 ones helping other people with their problems. But I'm about 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:13.520 to go abroad and I'm going to watch met games. Noah, 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:14.400 how can I watch them? 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:15.000 That's a tough one. 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:17.239 Maybe get a really large telescope. 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:19.240 I don't think that's the best way to do it, Manny, 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:21.080 Do you have any solutions on how I can watch 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:21.960 Mets games abroad? 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:25.480 I think I've got a slightly more practical solution for you, Devin. 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:29.280 If you use Nord VPN, you'll be able to change 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:32.480 the location of your laptop's IP address and watch the 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:34.160 content with no problem. 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:37.000 What about my privacy online? I'm worried someone's watching me. 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:38.920 First of all, no one is watching you, Noah. 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:42.800 But in case someone was watching you, NordVPN provides you 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:47.640 with privacy online, leaving no digital footprint by hiding your 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:51.200 IP address. It's like wearing an invisibility cloak while you're 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:51.960 surfing the web. 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.360 Sounds comfy, So, Manny, I've heard about these VPNs and 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:56.720 how they're super slipt. 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.680 How do I make sure my internet is not throttling. 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:02.360 If you want to use a VPN without slowing down 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:04.880 your Internet, Devin, You're going to want to use NordVPN 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:08.000 because whenever I use it, I don't see any buffering 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:11.280 or lagging while I'm streaming my favorite content. 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:13.480 How do I get NordVPN, Devin? 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:16.200 If you or our listeners want to get the best 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:19.880 discount off of your NordVPN plan, go to NordVPN dot 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:23.840 com slash nst. Our link will also give you four 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:27.000 extra months on the two year plan, and there's no 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:30.200 risk because Nord has a thirty day money back guarantee. 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:33.520 The link is in the show notes. That's NordVPN dot 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:35.120 com slash nst. 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.640 We're back. I'm Manny, I'm Noah Devon, and we are 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:45.920 joined by Eric Baker. Eric, why don't you introduce yourself? 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:49.880 Hi all, I'm Eric Kammer, raider and historian and an 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:53.200 editor at The Drift magazine. A book called Make Your 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:56.800 Own Job, How the Entrepreneurial Work Ethic Exhausted America, which 0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:00.520 is about how our culture work came to be so toxic. 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:03.480 Our main question that we're talking about is how efficient 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:07.680 various management styles are talking about micromanaging versus free range, that. 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:08.160 Sort of thing. 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:10.880 But first, can you explain kind of how the basic 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:14.160 kind of standard corporate office structure came to be as 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:14.640 we know it. 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:17.440 Yeah, and this is a big question and a process 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:21.920 that takes a long time, so I'll try to try 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:30.560 to stick to the highlights. In general, the large corporations 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:33.360 come to start to dominate the American economy in the 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:37.520 late nineteenth century, and by the early twentieth century, you 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:39.800 could walk into the downtown of a city like New 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:42.320 York and you would start to see some office buildings 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:46.880 that are familiar to us today, cubicles, things like that. 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:50.160 Because these big corporations they need a ton of white 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:53.800 collar work to make happen. You need accountants, you need 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:57.120 people to manage all of this paper that's going back 0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:03.120 and forth, you know, transcontinental communication, lawyers, people doing advertising, 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:07.080 all this stuff, And so increasingly they get concentrated in 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:12.760 office buildings, and that leads to a demand for new 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:14.959 ideas about how to manage these workers. 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:15.440 I mean, it's. 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:18.199 Important to remember that before all this happened, before this 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:22.840 turned to corporate consolidation in the late nineteenth century, the 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:25.840 fraction of the people who were doing what we today 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:28.919 called white collar work was very very small. You know, 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:33.760 it was a predominantly agrarian society. You know, they increasingly 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:37.399 start to get people working in manufacturing industry. But you know, 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:41.680 the office kind of emerges in tandem with the emergence 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:46.680 of this new workforce who are working primarily with pander 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:50.320 bensil and paper at desks. That's kind of a novel 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:51.680 historical development. 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:56.840 So now we have all these kind of you know, 0:17:57.240 --> 0:17:59.800 pencil pushers set up. How were kind of the management 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:02.959 stuf aisles first developed and then also shared, Like how 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:04.560 do they become so widespread? 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:06.879 Well, there are a range of ideas, and you know, 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:09.320 one of the important things to remember about this history 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:12.000 is there's what people thought they were doing or what 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:15.439 experts advised managers to do, and then kind of what 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:19.600 the reality was actually on the office floor. So you know, 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.680 initially there was the kind of natural school of thought 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:25.159 is to just say, you know, oh, well, we should 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:29.000 we have these strategies and schemes that we've developed to 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:33.080 manage industrial workers in factory settings. You know, let's just 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:38.119 kind of apply that to our pencil pushers. But that 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:42.800 often proves actually much easier said than done. These are huge, 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:48.560 sprawling bureaucracies, often quite literally sprawling. You know, there's some famous, 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:52.280 famous silent film from the nineteen twenties of you know, 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:55.120 there's a shot that just you know, shows you row 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:58.199 after row a kind of almost surreal, sort of endless 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:02.600 sea of desks. You know, that's that's actually something a 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:04.800 little different than an assembly line, where you know, you 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:07.800 can line up, line everyone up, and you know, monitor 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:10.880 what everyone's doing and sort of dictate really precise steps 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:15.080 and stuff like that. So, you know, in addition to these, uh, 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:19.199 this sort of advice or kind of expert schemes for 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:22.240 for managers, there also emerges what we might call a 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:24.760 sort of self help literature, you know, how to how 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:28.159 to survive as an employee in these in these settings. 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:32.679 And you know, reading that literature really showed me how 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:35.080 many people were sort of navigating with the reality that 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:38.840 the bosses in some cases they wish that they were 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:42.200 had more clarity about what they were supposed to be doing. 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:46.120 And so there's there's really a kind of set of advice. 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:48.760 You know, this is part of the titular phrase of 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:51.119 my book Make your Own Job. You know, these people 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:54.840 sort of cast a drift in these big bureaucratic settings 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:58.119 where you know, our our image, and often what the 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.920 managers thought they were doing was this high we routinized 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:04.360 sort of systematic kind of control. But really people kind 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:06.959 of felt like it was not always obvious what they 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:09.080 were actually expected to be. 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:11.720 Doing, and would it be fair to say then that 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:14.879 kind of this idea of micromanaging in some ways evolved 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:17.159 from that, where it's like, we don't really have an 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:20.480 idea what's happening, but maybe we can check in a 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:22.560 million times a day and try to find some sort 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:24.280 of structure in this or how do you kind of 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:24.840 describe that? 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:27.560 Yeah, so in a lot of offices, for you know, 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:32.560 roughly the nineteen twenties to the nineteen seventies, there's a 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.560