1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We are on vacation this week, but 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,399 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean we don't have an amazing show for you. 5 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: Columbia Journalism School Professor Alexander Still talk to us about 6 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: the recently deceased former Italian President Silvio Bertiscni and how 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: we can thank him for America's politics today, including trump Ism. 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: But first we have former Congressmen Monde Jones. Welcome too, 9 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: Fast Politics. 10 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 2: Your friend and mine. Mondere Jones, Mondair, do you have 11 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 2: some you want to tell me? Perhaps an announcement. 12 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 3: I do have an announcement to my district in the 13 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 3: seventeenth Congressional up in the Lower Hudson Valley to you 14 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 3: into the world, and that is I'm going to be 15 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 3: running for a term in Congress to continue the important 16 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 3: work that I started last year. 17 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 2: Yes, what does that mean exactly running? 18 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 3: I'm running. 19 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 2: He's running, folks, I am running. 20 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 3: I'm so excited to be continuing the fight to serve 21 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 3: the people who raised me in Rockland, Westchester, Huttnam and 22 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 3: Dutchess Counties and to Lower costs for working families, to 23 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 3: save democracy itself from this Republican fascist takeover of our country, 24 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 3: to make sure that we get weapons of war off 25 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 3: the streets, and yes, to protect basic freedoms like the 26 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 3: freedom to have an abortion. All of these things are 27 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 3: at risk because of what we are seeing come out 28 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 3: of Washington, particularly the House representatives, and what will likely 29 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 3: happen with the Republican presidential nomination. 30 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: So you were in Congress before explain to us a 31 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: little bit about New York had a radical redistricting, eleventh 32 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: hour redistricting, and you kind of let the other guy 33 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: run talk to us a little bit about that. 34 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 3: Last year was a nightmare. I never imagined waking up 35 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 3: and seeing a redistricting process and political machinations come out 36 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 3: of Washington that resulted in my congressional district up in 37 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 3: the seventeenth being torn apart and being faced with the 38 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 3: prospect of running against a member of my own party 39 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 3: and a colleague in Congress. In that moment, we were 40 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 3: facing a nearly unprecedented assault on democracy by Republicans in 41 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 3: Congress and nationally, we were looking at the freedom to 42 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 3: have an abortion that was on its way to being 43 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 3: taken away. We had seen the draft opinion in DBBS. 44 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 3: We had seen so much coming from the Republican Party 45 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 3: that I did not want to make it less likely 46 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 3: that my constituent would continue to be represented by someone 47 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 3: who cared about democracy, by someone who would fight to 48 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 3: protect the freedom to have an abortion, by someone who 49 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 3: would continue to fight for working people like the family 50 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 3: I grew up in. And so rather than having bruising 51 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 3: primary with the chair of the D trible seat, I 52 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 3: decided to maximize the likely that my constituents, but can 53 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 3: you can you continue to be well represented, And as 54 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 3: a result ran in a different district, and that chair. 55 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 2: Of the D triple c actually lost. 56 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 3: He lost anyway, by eighteen hundred and twenty votes to 57 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 3: a career political operative who will tell you anything you 58 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 3: want to hear, but who will do anything that Kevin 59 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 3: McCarthy and the extreme MAGA Republicans in Congress tell him 60 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 3: to do. And that person's name is Mike Laalt. 61 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: I think it's important to pause for a minute. Democrats 62 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: lost a lot of seats in New York State, perhaps 63 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: because of the ghost of Andrew Cuomo and his non 64 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: partisan redistricting which he set up in twenty twelve, kicked 65 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: the can down the road a decade, and then we 66 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: found ourselves in the middle of a non partisan redistricting nightmare, 67 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: and his obsession was holding onto power in a theoretically 68 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: nonpartisan but really republican way. Democrats lost a bunch of 69 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: seats to Republicans, ultimately causing them to lose the House. 70 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: A lot of these candidates ran as not MAGA. They 71 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: ran as sort of quote unquote normal Republicans. But it 72 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: turns out it doesn't matter at all. They still vote 73 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: with Kevin McCarthy. 74 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 3: They vote with Kevin McCarthy and with the extreme mag 75 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 3: Republicans in Congress. They are indistinguishable from that cohort when 76 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 3: you look at their voting record. So let's run the team, right. 77 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 3: So the first legislative vote that Mike Waller took was 78 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 3: to repeal provisions of the Inflation Reduction Act. Specifically, he 79 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 3: voted to gut the irs so that billionaire corporations and 80 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 3: very wealthy people could more easily cheat on their tax right. 81 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 3: Then had the nerve a few months later to complain 82 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 3: about the deficit after having just voted for a policy 83 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 3: that would have reduced the revenue that the US government 84 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 3: receives and, by the way, in the process of taking 85 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 3: us to the brink of default as a nation on 86 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 3: our debt, voted for a bill that would cut services 87 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 3: to veterans and reduce funding for law enforcement in the 88 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 3: midst of our nation's uniquely American gun violence epidemic. He 89 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 3: voted a few weeks ago to overturn the ATF rule 90 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 3: on gun braces, which would make us less safe from 91 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 3: gun violence, in particular from mass shootings. He continues to 92 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 3: oppose the freedom of women to have an abortion. He 93 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 3: opposes a ban on AR fifteen's and other assault weapons 94 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 3: weapons of war that have no business being in the 95 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 3: hands of civilians, but wants to talk about crime. I'm 96 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 3: happy to talk about crime, Miley. I relish the opportunity. 97 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: To talk about public safety in this I mean, the 98 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: incredible thing about the crime situation is that we have 99 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: a quote unquote democratic mayor. But that is really just 100 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: in quotes who is obsessed with making the case that 101 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: there's a terrible crime wife. But murders are down, and 102 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: a lot of these crimes are actually flat. I mean, 103 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 1: you may have complains, but that's what it is. 104 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 3: Well, Look, I want to be clear. New Yorkers deserve 105 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 3: to feel and to actually be safe, and it's why 106 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 3: I have consistently voted for historic levels of police funding 107 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 3: every time I've gotten the chance in the United States Congress. 108 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 2: In fact, last. 109 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 3: Fall, I was the deciding vote on a rule that 110 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 3: then resulted in six police funding bills getting a vote 111 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 3: on the House floor, and I voted for every last 112 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 3: one of them. It's also not lost on me that 113 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 3: the Lower Hudson Valley is one of the safest places 114 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:36,919 Speaker 3: in America when you look at the US News and 115 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 3: World Report rankings from a year or two ago. Rockland 116 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 3: County third safist county in America, west Chester County fourbe 117 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 3: safist county in America, Putnam County twelfth safist county in America. 118 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 3: And at some point we had to have a discussion 119 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 3: about how the Republican description of the Hudson Valley as 120 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 3: this crime ridden health gape is an affront to the 121 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 3: important work that law enforcement officers every single day to 122 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 3: keep us safe. They're doing an outstanding job and we 123 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 3: have to continue to support them, and so I just 124 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 3: want to make clear my position on that. Well. 125 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: I think it's really important that we talk about this, 126 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: because this is not with Republicans, just like with the border, 127 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: this is not about keeping people safe. If this is 128 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: about finding an issue to get the base excited. 129 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 3: Right, I mean, God forbid, Republicans have to run on 130 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 3: their record on the economy. I mean Joe Biden, for 131 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 3: all of the criticisms that people may have about his age, 132 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 3: perhaps in the minds of many voters, is someone who 133 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 3: has presided over and has a record that he can 134 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 3: take credit for of creating the most jobs, many millions 135 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 3: of jobs in his first term, which is not even 136 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 3: complete yet of any president in modern history, if not 137 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 3: in the history of this great nation. You know, we 138 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 3: have lowered the cost of prescription drugs so that by 139 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 3: the year twenty twenty five, people on Medicare like my 140 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 3: grandmother will not have to pay more than two thousand 141 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 3: dollars annually for prescription drugs. And we have seen incrementally 142 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 3: the effects of that legislation, known as the Inflation Reduction Act, 143 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 3: in that in January of this year. For example, as 144 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 3: of January of this year, no person on Medicare is 145 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 3: paying more than thirty five dollars monthly for the cost 146 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 3: of insulent This is a president that has, you know, 147 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 3: along with Democrats in Congress like myself, who I actually 148 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,679 Speaker 3: negotiate a passage of the infrastructure law, brought the party 149 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 3: together in that moment. He passed the largest infrastructure bill 150 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 3: in generations, which has brought and will be bringing billions 151 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 3: of dollars to New York State alone to repair our 152 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 3: crumbling roads and bridges, and to complete the Gateway project, 153 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 3: for example, which is of great interest to my constituents 154 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 3: in the Hudson Valley. He passed a Respect for Marriage Act, 155 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 3: which made strides and ensuring marriage equality is the law 156 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 3: of the land. You know, this is a president who, 157 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 3: along with Democrats like myself, helped keep small businesses open 158 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 3: through our expansion of the paycheck protection program at the 159 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 3: height of the COVID nineteenth pandemic, and so much more. 160 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 3: You can tell I'm really passionate about this stuff. 161 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I think it's really important that you know, 162 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: I continually think that Biden has really been underestimated and 163 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: underappreciated for many of the things he's done, including his 164 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 1: really liberal policies. I mean, he was not my pick 165 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen, but he has ultimately passed a lot 166 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: of really liberal legislation, and I think, you know, we're 167 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: seeing right now Republicans trying desperately because they see the 168 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: writing on the wall and they know Trump is going 169 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: to be the twenty twenty candidate, or at least they're 170 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: pretty sure, which we all are, you know, are trying 171 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: to get other people to run to the left of 172 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,439 Speaker 1: Biden because they know that Biden. You know, Biden reads 173 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: like a normal Democrat, standard Democrat, but he has actually 174 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,119 Speaker 1: done a lot of really progressive legislation. 175 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 3: You know, I don't even think of it as progressive 176 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 3: legislation or liberal legislation. I think of it as legislation 177 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 3: for working people. When you do the poling, this stuff's 178 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 3: extremely popular, including Republicans. Do you remember, I think it 179 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 3: was sometime last year Congressman Byron Donald's Republican down in Florida, 180 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 3: and I think maybe some other people were present at 181 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 3: this private fundraiser and they got caught on the hot 182 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 3: mic talking about how, you know, if you start giving 183 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 3: the American people these policies, that they're going to start 184 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 3: voting Democratic because they're so popular. That's why you hear 185 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 3: these sort of manufactured, factually incorrect stories about new York 186 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 3: City trying to ban pizza ovens and nonsense like that, 187 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 3: because I don't want to talk about the bread and 188 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 3: butter issues. 189 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 2: That people care about. 190 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 3: People care about how did not put food on the 191 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 3: table for their families. And I know this intimately because 192 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 3: I grew up poor in Rockland County and my mom 193 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 3: worked multiple jobs to provide for our family, and because 194 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 3: the economy wasn't working to the point where she could 195 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 3: just work one job and have that be enough. And 196 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:52,719 Speaker 3: of course she got help raising me from my grandparents. 197 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 3: My grandfather was a janitor and my grandmother clean homes, 198 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,319 Speaker 3: and because childcare was so expensive. 199 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 2: From which it still is, if not worse now, Yeah, 200 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 2: go on, yeah. 201 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 3: You know often times I had to go to work 202 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 3: with her, and then, through the grace of God in 203 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 3: an entire community in Rockley County that raised me, made 204 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 3: it all the way to the halls of Congress, where 205 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 3: I got to represent the same people whose homes I 206 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 3: watched my grandmother crane growing up. But you know, no 207 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 3: one should have to go through what I went through 208 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 3: as a child. This is an economy that can work 209 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 3: for everybody, and I want to continue that fight, not 210 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 3: not give tax breaks to billionaires and billion dollar corporations 211 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 3: and try to play this sort of rhetorical jiu jitsu 212 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 3: where you know, Mike Lawler, the incumbent Republican, is saying 213 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 3: he wants to do something about the salt cap, that 214 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 3: ten thousand dollars limitation on the state and local tax deduction, 215 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 3: and not even acknowledge that it was Republicans in December 216 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 3: twenty seventeen. That's part of the first Trump tax scamp, right, 217 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 3: that that put that cap into place which crush families here, 218 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:48,439 Speaker 3: and that's in Balley, right. 219 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,599 Speaker 1: I want to talk about that salt tax for a 220 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 1: minute because it's such a favorite topic of mine and 221 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: Jesse so loves it when I talk about it. But 222 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,959 Speaker 1: you know that was ultimately the goal with the salt 223 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: deduction was that in a state where you had higher 224 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 1: local and state taxes, those taxes were usually used to 225 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: buttress schools, and you know they were used to create 226 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: a better quality of life for the people in blue states, right, 227 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 1: So you had higher state taxes because that money went 228 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: to public schools and went to services for people. And 229 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: in states like Texas where you didn't have state and 230 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,959 Speaker 1: local income tax, that was because they didn't give a 231 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: fuck about children or public schools or anything like that. 232 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,079 Speaker 1: So the idea was to punish those blue states by 233 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 1: raising their taxes. 234 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 3: Ad I'm proud to live in a state and in 235 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 3: a community where government invests in infrastructure and in great 236 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 3: public schools. You know, we've still got work to do 237 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 3: with some of our school systems, but you know, here 238 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 3: in Nuts and Valley, we've generally got great public school 239 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 3: and that's because we invest in creating great public schools. 240 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 3: I wish more communities had the resources to do that. 241 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 3: But we should not be punished by Mitch Vaccano and 242 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 3: other Republicans in Congress because of who we vote for 243 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 3: for president. And it is exactly what Republicans like Mike 244 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 3: Lawa did back in December twenty seventeen, and so he 245 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 3: doesn't get to run away from that record of his party. 246 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do think that it's really important when 247 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: we talk about, you know, the way the government is 248 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: supposed to work is that we are supposed to be 249 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: represented no matter who we voted for, no matter the 250 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: color of the state, a blue state, a red state. 251 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: The president is a president for everyone. What was interesting 252 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: about Donald Trump is that he had no interest in 253 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: growing the electorate, which is why he didn't get reelected, 254 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 1: and he just wanted to deliver for red states. 255 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 2: And this is sort of a vestige of that. 256 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 4: It is a vessage of that. 257 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 3: And this guy is now likely to be the Republican 258 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 3: nominated for president next year. And I want people well 259 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 3: to really sit with that, because I know that there 260 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 3: is concern over the president running for reelection. But as 261 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 3: he has said, I think quite effectively, do not compare 262 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 3: me to the perfect, compare me to the alternative. And 263 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 3: I think that's right. This is a district here in 264 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 3: the Lower Hudsond Valley that Joe Biden defeated Donald Trump 265 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 3: been by ten points. If we are not flipping seats 266 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 3: that Joe Biden won by ten points, then we are 267 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 3: simply not taking back the majority of the House of Representatives. 268 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 3: Of those eighteen House districts that Biden won, this is 269 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 3: his fifth largest margin of victory, so it is literally 270 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 3: the fifth vote required to take back the House of 271 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 3: Representatives so that we can finally pass voting rights and 272 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 3: other democracy reform legislation, so that we can pass legislation 273 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 3: to codify Roby Wade, so that we can pass legislation 274 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 3: to increase the federal menmum wage, which hasn't changed since 275 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 3: two thousand and nine, and it is an abomination at 276 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 3: the current level. So that we can continue to lower 277 00:14:57,520 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 3: the costs of prescription drugs, not just for people on men, 278 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 3: but for people throughout our economy and throughout our society. 279 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 3: Bees and so many other issues are what's at stake. 280 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 3: And it's not lost on me that Donald Trump is 281 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 3: even more dangerous than he was the first time that 282 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 3: people chose Joe Biden over Donald Trump, that you know, 283 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 3: this guy is going to pardon the insurrectionists that nearly 284 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 3: took my life in the lives of hundreds of other 285 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 3: members of Congress on January sixth, But he has just 286 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 3: been criminally indicted for the second time for doing what 287 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 3: I think few people had imagined, which was stealing and 288 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 3: then sharing national security secrets that cut our service members 289 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 3: and the nation at risk. 290 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: Yes, and also it was funny because we're only two 291 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: indictments in. 292 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 2: I mean, there's still the fake the summer is not over. 293 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: There is still the fake electorate indictment, which is coming 294 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: down the. 295 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 3: Pike it is, and then there's the January sixth investigation. 296 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 3: After Donald Trump was indicted for the second time this year, 297 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 3: time by the Department of Justice, Mike Lawler told the 298 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 3: press that the FBI and the DOJ were politicized. He 299 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 3: made that statement without any evidence, And I got to 300 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 3: tell you, I just never imagined waking up one day 301 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 3: and seeing my member of Congress now in this district 302 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 3: participate in the assault on the rule of law in 303 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 3: this country, especially coming from a guy who belongs to 304 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 3: a party that claims to care about the rule of law, 305 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 3: and the assault on our institution, which is an assault 306 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 3: on democracy itself. 307 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 2: By the way, Yes, absolutely true. 308 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: So just give us the two seconds here you have 309 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: a primary, when is it? 310 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 2: Give us the sort of the TLDR. 311 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 3: I've got a little bit of a primary that will 312 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 3: be decided by June of next year in New York State. 313 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 3: One of my opponents is the younger sister of the 314 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 3: governor of the state of Michigan. I have great respect 315 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 3: for anyone who would run against me in the primary, 316 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 3: and so look forward to a robust exchange of ideas, 317 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 3: and frankly, I look forward to campaigning on my record 318 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 3: of accomplishment of delivering actual results for people in the 319 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 3: Lower Hudson Valley these past two years. I am optimistic 320 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 3: based on the energy on the ground, people urging me 321 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 3: to run, urging me to restore the leadership that this 322 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 3: district deserves, and candidly moldy a lot of people who 323 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 3: were just really hurt by the unfair way in which 324 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 3: people in our district were treated last year, both by 325 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 3: National Democrats and yes by the acting Supreme Court judge 326 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,479 Speaker 3: up in Stuben County who redrew the congressional district and 327 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 3: cause a lot of damage frankly to the interests of 328 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 3: the people here. And so I'm looking forward to making 329 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 3: right to addressing that injustice and continuing to deliver for 330 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 3: my constituents, who again I just love so much and 331 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 3: who took me from poverty, me to the halls of Congress. 332 00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 3: The bond that I have is one that I cherished 333 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 3: with these people. So please, if you care about saving 334 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 3: our democracy and protecting basic freedoms and continuing to lower 335 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 3: costs for working people and getting weapons of war off 336 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 3: our streets, go to Monderefourcongress dot com and smash it. 337 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 2: Dony Bud Thank you so much, Monde. I hope you'll 338 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 2: come back. Of course, I'll come back. 339 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 3: I mean, there's gonna be a lot happening in these 340 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 3: next sixteen months, and it's important to continue this discussion. 341 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: Alexandra Still is a professor at the Columbia Journalism School. 342 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics. 343 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,479 Speaker 4: Alexandra, Hi, thanks for having me. 344 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 2: Very excited to have you. 345 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: One of the many smart things you've written recently is 346 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: a really interesting idea that, in fact, for Thosconi walked 347 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: so that Trump could run. 348 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean I think that what I was 349 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 4: down intriguing about Billisconi. When he first kind of came 350 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 4: on the scene, A lot of people kind of just 351 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 4: missed him as a kind of comical figure. You know, 352 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 4: he'd been a cruoner on a cruise ship when he 353 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 4: was a student. He was kind of loud and vulgar. 354 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 4: He seemed like a product of a certain kind of 355 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 4: corrupt Italian culture. And what I think I noticed early 356 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 4: on was that he was also an extremely innovative and 357 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 4: whether you like it or not, had pioneered a new 358 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 4: kind of politics. That he was sort of like the 359 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 4: first postmodern politician. He understood that we had moved out 360 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 4: of an era of arty politics, ideology, class based politics 361 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 4: in which people voted their economic class, and that Berlo 362 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 4: Sconi had innovated a kind of inter class appeal. He 363 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 4: was a billionaire populist. 364 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: Tell our listeners a little bit about Italy when Berlasconi came. 365 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,120 Speaker 2: To power, what it looked like and how he did it. 366 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 4: Sure, I wonder if I could just take one step 367 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 4: back before even more. 368 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 2: That's great? 369 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, which is you know? Bert was going? He made 370 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 4: his first fortune in real estate and then quickly moved 371 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 4: into television. There was no such thing as private TV 372 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 4: before the mid nineteen seventies. Early it was the monopoly 373 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 4: of the Italian state TV known as RYE, and the 374 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 4: Italian High Court had ruled that there could be private TV, 375 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,719 Speaker 4: but on a limited basis, purely on a only local broadcasts. 376 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 4: Berl's going. He saw an opportunity, jumped into it, brought 377 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 4: up a lot of local stations, and then, in typical 378 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 4: Ball was Going to Eat Fashion, skirted the rules by 379 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 4: broadcasting the same program like three seconds apart, claiming that 380 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 4: they were local, but then selling advertising nationally. So he 381 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 4: quickly gained an advantage over his competitors and became the 382 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 4: biggest figure in private TV. Brought up his two biggest competitors, 383 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 4: and by the early nineteen eighties had literally a monopoly 384 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 4: of private TV, ninety percent of the market of private 385 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 4: television and a kind of what was known as a 386 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 4: duopoly with the three state TV channels and his three 387 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 4: private channels having like a ninety percent of audience share 388 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 4: in the country. So that was the first really big 389 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 4: thing that he did. And in order to establish private TV, 390 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 4: he changed the culture of Italy and that what I 391 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 4: think is so interesting about Berlosconi is that he changed 392 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 4: the culture of the country and that culture then elected 393 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 4: him as a politician. And what I mean by that 394 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:40,439 Speaker 4: is that the world before Berlosconi in Italy was a 395 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 4: kind of austere and moralistic. It was dominated by the 396 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 4: Catholic Church and the Communist Party, both of you which 397 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,199 Speaker 4: were kind of moralistic in their own different ways. You couldn't, 398 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 4: literally for a long time, even advertise dog food on 399 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 4: the state TV because it was considered to be a 400 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 4: moral and Berlosconi instead realized, I'm going to make this 401 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 4: private TV thing where anything goes. All I care about 402 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 4: is audience and advertising. I'm going to get the cheesiest, 403 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 4: most popular programs. I don't work educating the public, and 404 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 4: I need to create a world of desire in which 405 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 4: a new Italians learned to long for things they didn't 406 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 4: even know they wanted before and them you know, so 407 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 4: I have you know, programs like Dallas and Dynasty which 408 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 4: create an atmosphere of luxury and wealth and material well being. 409 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 4: And then my my viewers are going to want those things. 410 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 4: So my advertisers are earned going to pay me a 411 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 4: lot of money in order to advertise their products. So 412 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 4: we created this kind of materialistic culture, which followed a 413 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 4: long period during the Cold War of ideological struggle between 414 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 4: left and right. There was you know, terrible terrorism in 415 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 4: Italy during the nineteen seventies, and it's Goni promised a 416 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 4: post ideological world, a world in which let's not worry 417 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 4: about you know, all this politics stuff. Let's have a 418 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 4: good time, Let's have on looking at scantily cloud women 419 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 4: and you know, watching cheesy programs and watching Baywatch. And 420 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 4: so he offered a different kind of society in which 421 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 4: you didn't have to be ashamed of being rich or 422 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 4: wanting to be rich, and that's a very important predicate 423 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 4: to his political large. So then what happens is that 424 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 4: in the early nineties, the political system that had sustained 425 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 4: Berlosconi and protected his monopoly began to crumble. There was 426 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 4: this big corruption investigation on his operation Clean Hands, which 427 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,400 Speaker 4: start two and suddenly left him without his political protectors. 428 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 4: And by nineteen ninety three these people were going to prison, 429 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 4: fleeing the country community side, and he realized, holy shit, 430 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 4: if I don't do something fast, I'm going to go 431 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,239 Speaker 4: the way of these people, and so, you know what, 432 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 4: I'm going to actually take over the political system. He 433 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 4: did something that nobody thought was possible. One thing you 434 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 4: have to credit Berlosconi with is with extraordinary audacity and guts, 435 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 4: and so he basically turned what was then already the 436 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 4: largest or the second largest private company in the country 437 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 4: into a political war machine. All parts of the company, 438 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 4: from the ad salesman to the people who sold mutual 439 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 4: for auds, to the executives and the TV company all 440 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 4: are working towards the aim of electing Berlisconi and his 441 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 4: newly formed party. 442 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 2: Really sounds like Trump and then it works. 443 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 4: I mean it was. It was like Trump on steroids 444 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 4: in a sense. It was, you know, as if you 445 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 4: had somehow married Trump and the Murdoch Empire. And created 446 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 4: hybrid figure you'd have Berlosconi. So one of the other 447 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 4: things he did, which is very much should seem very 448 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 4: familiar to American listeners, is that his media, before the 449 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 4: creation of Fox News, created a hyperpowers and type of media. 450 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 4: His three TV networks, his magazine group, his ropers all 451 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 4: began flooding the zone with pro berliscone stuff and attacking 452 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 4: anyone that dared to attack or criticize him. 453 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 2: It's like Ruper Murdoch a little bit. 454 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, very much, very much, and it was very clear. 455 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,360 Speaker 4: I mean, they are one of the people who participated 456 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,679 Speaker 4: in these meetings and published a book in which he 457 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 4: recorded some of the conversations, and Bertolosconi said, we have 458 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,199 Speaker 4: to sing in chorus so that the people who attack 459 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 4: us are then hit with concentrated fire and they will stop. 460 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 4: That's sort of what happened. Anytime you raise your head 461 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 4: and criticize Berolosconi, you could count on, you know, scurless 462 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 4: stories appearing about you, fake scandals, everything to kind of 463 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 4: distract people from what was happening with Bertolosconi. So that 464 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 4: ended up being a very successful model. He gets into 465 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 4: power in nineteen ninety four and then things get very 466 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 4: bumpy because a thing that is, in a sense, it's 467 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 4: not unlike Trump. Trump came in promising that he was 468 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 4: going to be the defender of the working class, and 469 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 4: he was going to stand up for the forgotten people 470 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 4: who didn't get represented from the coastal elites, et cetera, 471 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 4: et cetera. And then, of course, the one economic program 472 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 4: he actually passes is a big tax cut that goes 473 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 4: largely to the very rich. Brosconi did the same thing, 474 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 4: and he promised to be an economic miracle worker. He 475 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 4: was going to be the Italian Margaret Thatcher who was 476 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 4: going to cut bureaucracy at ape and liberate the economic 477 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,199 Speaker 4: engine of the country. And he didn't do any of 478 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 4: that because he wasn't really interested in the boring, difficult 479 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 4: work of government, and what he really cared about was 480 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 4: protecting his media empire from regulation and staying out of 481 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 4: prison and keeping associates up right. 482 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 2: Like Trump very much. 483 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 4: It's kind of a remarkable It does sort of make 484 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 4: you realize that there's something in this particular moment of history. 485 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 4: It produces these kinds of figures and then makes this 486 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 4: a kind of winning formula. What he has or had 487 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 4: that is also very much like Trump, is this ability 488 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 4: to appeal to people who are in a very different 489 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 4: economic class from him. So or working people who in 490 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 4: Italy used to vote for the Italian Communist Party are 491 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 4: suddenly voting for Bill Sconi. Why because he seems authentic? 492 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 4: Theyn't They know that his policies may not really align 493 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 4: with their interests, but you know, they find his personality appealing, 494 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 4: the fact that he is tells off color jokes, and 495 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 4: like Trump, yeah, very much. It's this idea in which 496 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 4: you replace programs with authenticity. So you're not buying a 497 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:42,959 Speaker 4: political program, you are buying a personality, and authenticity has 498 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 4: become the value that you prize the most, rather than 499 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 4: let's say, ideological consistency or a program that makes sense 500 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 4: to you. 501 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 2: This it's incredible. I mean why I read that piece. 502 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: And you know, I grew up spending a lot of 503 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 1: time in Italy because my mother had an Italian boyfriend 504 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: who I think boyfriend is a generous term for what 505 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: this relationship was, and so we spent a lot of 506 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 1: time there and I grew up during the eighties and nineties, 507 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: so Berlusconi was the guy, and my mother always hated 508 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: him because she thought he was a fascist. But they 509 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 1: had a very similar you know, they were both very 510 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: into sex. They were both very into dirtiness and naughtiness 511 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: and whatever, and and you know, he got involved with 512 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: a lot of scroll as people, et cetera, et cetera, 513 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 1: and he did really he went into office, and like Trump, 514 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: he had lots of trials. 515 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:33,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. 516 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 4: Well, the thing you mentioned about sex, I think is 517 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 4: important because one of the things that he did, as 518 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 4: I mentioned, is that he changed the culture like you 519 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 4: would not have had you know, Nate Good or scantily 520 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 4: cloud women on Satle before Berolosconi. And so he's completely 521 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 4: unapologetic about doing that. He introduces the first nude game 522 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 4: show into Italy or the world as far as I 523 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 4: during all of his entertainment programs, even on serious subjects, 524 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 4: you'd have a woman standing there in a kind of 525 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 4: low cut dress showing her thighs, known as the velina, 526 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 4: and so that people could gawk at her while they're 527 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 4: listening to something about soccer or politics. So he introduces, 528 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 4: you know, sex and transgression becomes part of his trademark, 529 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 4: which is again very much like Trump. You know, he 530 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 4: would brag about his own sexual accomplishments, made no secret 531 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 4: of it, created you know, various scandals. You know, like 532 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 4: he's visiting an earthquake zone with an attractive female public 533 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 4: official who's like, you know, worrying about you know, people 534 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 4: who have ended up homeless, and he ends up saying, 535 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 4: you know, can I caress this woman? 536 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 2: Right? 537 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 4: Also about Claude and Kiosi, he said, so that kind 538 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 4: of thing where he's these things that sort of right 539 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 4: thinking people were appalled by. To a lot of ordinary Italians, 540 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 4: it's like, okay, yeah, he's not really a traditional politician. 541 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 4: He's somebody liked me. I might say something like that. 542 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 4: Certainly I would have fought it. And he has the 543 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 4: guts to say what other people think but don't say. 544 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 4: So that's very much part of a Trump thing. Then 545 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 4: the scandals begin to accumulate almost as soon as he 546 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 4: gets into office, because he goes into politics in part 547 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,719 Speaker 4: to head off these corruption investigations that are rising up 548 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 4: the ladder, and he knows that there are lots of 549 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 4: skeletons in his own corporate closet, and like many businesses, 550 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 4: he and his associates have had to pay bribes for years, 551 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 4: and eventually these things will be found out, and. 552 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 3: In fact they are. 553 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 4: It turns out that Berlusconi's chief lawyer has had various 554 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:49,959 Speaker 4: judges on his payroll. Hundreds of thousands of money, hundreds 555 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 4: of thousands of dollars are traveling from berlisconi corporate accounts 556 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 4: into the Swiss bank accounts of a sitting judge. Twenty 557 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 4: one billion Lira, which is about fifteen million dollars, was 558 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 4: discovered going into the account of the socialist leader Batio 559 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 4: Craxy things like that. So all that stuff is accumulating 560 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 4: even as he's trying to govern, which makes of course 561 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 4: governing impossible because he's spending all of his time putting 562 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 4: out these fires and going from crisis to crisis. So 563 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 4: he ends up his first government collapses partly because of 564 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 4: these crises. But the thing about Bosconi is that you 565 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 4: can sort of map his career in the following way. 566 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 4: When he's in power, things go badly and he governs poorly. 567 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 4: As soon as he's out of power, it's like Superman 568 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 4: regaining his hours, and then he becomes an incredibly potent 569 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 4: opposition figure fighting to get back into power. Then he 570 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 4: gets back into power, he's bored. He starts to make 571 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 4: mistakes governs poorly, they kick him out, and then he 572 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 4: goes back into opposition mode. So there are these kind 573 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 4: of alternating periods, you know, when he's in power in 574 00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 4: ninety four and then out of power until two thousand 575 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 4: and one, back in power and then again out and 576 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 4: then back in power in I think two thousand and 577 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 4: eight to twenty eleven. 578 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 2: And then he also goes to jail. 579 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 4: No, well he doesn't. He never went to jail. He 580 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 4: had many, many trials, right, Okay. One of the things 581 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 4: that's unfortunately it's a little tricky to explain, but I'll 582 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 4: keep it simple. Italy has three levels of judge of judgment, 583 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 4: so you can't be officially convicted until you've exhausted two 584 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 4: sets of appeals. So you can be convicted a trial, 585 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 4: but technically you're still not convicted until an appeals court 586 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,719 Speaker 4: has ruled on it and then the highest court has 587 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 4: signed off on that. 588 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 2: So it's hard to go to jail in Italy, is 589 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 2: what you're saying. 590 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 4: It's hard to go to jail. But it's even worse 591 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 4: than that because all countries have something called the statute 592 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 4: of limitations, where you can't be prosecuted years and years 593 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 4: after the fact. But in almost all countries the statute 594 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 4: of limitation clock ends the moment judicial action begins, so 595 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 4: you can't draw a case out and have it thrown 596 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 4: out just because you've gone past the time limit. In Italy, 597 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 4: that's not the case, and so Bert's going with his 598 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 4: armies of lawyers and these three levels of appeal would 599 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 4: drag these cases out until the statute of limitations had 600 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 4: run and then he could say, hey, wait a second, 601 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 4: I was never convicted. 602 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 2: So he can just run out the clock on everything 603 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 2: ran out the clock. 604 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 4: And of course most Italians didn't grasp the distinction between 605 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 4: running out the clock with statute of limitation because he 606 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 4: was actually convicted numerous times at a trial level where 607 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 4: he's been on the second level of appeal, but the 608 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 4: case was then thrown out on statute of limitation grounds. 609 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 4: So there are many cases of that kind, including bribing 610 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 4: a sitting senator to get him to change his vote 611 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 4: and bring down a government to give you an idea. 612 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 4: He then is finally convicted and I think it's twenty 613 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 4: thirteen of a tax fraud case, and that case makes 614 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 4: it through all levels of judgment. He doesn't go to jail, 615 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 4: but he is prevented from holding office for I think 616 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 4: five years. That kind of puts in out of the 617 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 4: game for a good period of time. 618 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 2: Italy right now, what is happening over there. 619 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 4: Well, I think what's happening and in a sense, the 620 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 4: hangover of the Berlosconi era is that Berlosconi's lack of 621 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 4: interest in governing and incompetence meant that Italy was the 622 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 4: slowest growing country in Europe for about thirty years, and 623 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,959 Speaker 4: so the country has been doing really quite poorly since 624 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 4: the early nineteen nineties. Over a million young people have 625 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 4: left the country because they don't see a future for 626 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 4: themselves in Italy. They are living in the US and 627 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,919 Speaker 4: Canada and France, England and Germany, you name it. Those 628 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 4: who stay live with their parents until they're in their 629 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 4: thirties or forties. So there's a really bad situation, which 630 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 4: is meant that there's a lot of unhappiness and discontent 631 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 4: with the political system. That's meant that they've elected a 632 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 4: right wing government headed by Georgia Maloney together with Berlisk, 633 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 4: what remains of Belisconi's party and another conservative party. So 634 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 4: you can look at it as oh my god, the 635 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 4: post fascists are back. But I think it's perhaps more 636 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 4: useful to look at the fact that Italy is kind 637 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 4: of flailing around looking for a solution to these long, 638 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 4: very deep seated problems of huge public debt, slow economy, 639 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 4: almost non existent birth rate, you know, one point two 640 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 4: for children per woman, unhappiness of immigration, but a persistent 641 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 4: need for immigrant labor in order to make the run. 642 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 4: So they've got a whole lot of problems that they're 643 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 4: grappling with, and I don't know that they have the answers, 644 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 4: but it means at the moment that that favors a 645 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 4: right wing government and we'll see if they can do 646 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 4: something about these problems. But I think that the problems 647 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 4: are much deeper than that, and Belisconi's biggest disservice to 648 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 4: the country was failing to address all the issues that 649 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 4: he got into politics saying he wanted to address. 650 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: Maloney's government has been in for a year, Yeah, a 651 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 1: little less than a year. Is your sense that there's 652 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: anything good happening there? 653 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 4: I think it's a mixed bag. I mean, the economy 654 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 4: is growing a little bit, but whether that has to 655 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 4: do with her government or not, or just picking up. 656 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 4: These things are really hard to parse. She's taking a 657 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 4: hard line on immigration, but immigration continues as much as ever. 658 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 4: She wants to make it easier for Italians to raise families, 659 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 4: but I don't see them reversing the demographic situation anytime soon, 660 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 4: So I think it's a little bit too early to tell. 661 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 4: But the problems are deep and are not going to 662 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 4: be sort of solved by rhetorical positions. You can say 663 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 4: I won't stop immigration, but I think last year, like 664 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 4: six hundred thousand Italians died and less than four hundred 665 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,319 Speaker 4: thousand were born. So you have a deficit of two 666 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 4: hundred thousand people every year of people who are dropping 667 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 4: out of the workforce, added to the pension roles. So 668 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 4: Italy has to come to terms with the fact that 669 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 4: like it or not, it's going to become a multicultural 670 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 4: society and it's not culturally ready to do that, and 671 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 4: so that costs all kinds of problems. 672 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Alexander. I found this completely fascinating. 673 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 1: I'm so just so interesting. 674 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,840 Speaker 4: I really appreciate you, right, my pleasure. 675 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 676 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds 677 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you 678 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,399 Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend 679 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.