Speaker 1: Of the law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies. These episodes are based on. These are our stories, done.
Speaker 1: Done, Yay, that's messed up. An SVU podcast. My name
Speaker 1: is Lisa Traeger and my name is Kara Klank. You
Speaker 1: guys know what we do here. We talk about an
Speaker 1: episode of SVU the True crimits based on and we
Speaker 1: interview an amazing guest from the episode.
Speaker 3: But first we chitchat a little bit.
Speaker 1: And you know, I am currently experiencing my second bout
Speaker 1: of COVID. Yay, But I am honestly relieved that it's
Speaker 1: happening now before we go back out on the road again,
Speaker 1: because then I'll be like super immune and I'm not
Speaker 1: really missing anything super important that I had to cancel
Speaker 1: this week.
Speaker 3: That's kind of good, that's kind of it.
Speaker 2: And one of our friends had to cancel his Halloween
Speaker 2: party he got COVID. And my other friend yesterday said
Speaker 2: it's about to be another wave, and I wonder.
Speaker 1: If I'm one of the first surfers on the wave.
Speaker 1: Man and I didn't get to go trigger treating with
Speaker 1: my kids. But I did get to take them out
Speaker 1: like the whole weekend in to a lot of Halloween stuff.
Speaker 1: I just didn't get to take them trigger treating, which
Speaker 1: Jared sent me some videos and it was cute. They
Speaker 1: are negative, so hopefully they'll stay negative because they just
Speaker 1: got vaccinated and I'm hoping that it's like more strong
Speaker 1: in them or something.
Speaker 3: But I'm staying away from them.
Speaker 1: But speaking of our tour, I will be COVID free
Speaker 1: and ready to embrace all of you. And this episode
Speaker 1: comes out on the fifteenth of November, which means tonight
Speaker 1: we will be in Indianapolis. Don't miss us Indy and
Speaker 1: tomorrow night in the sixteenth and Columbus, the seventeenth in Cleveland,
Speaker 1: the eighteenth in Detroit. The nineteenth will be in Detroit
Speaker 1: doing stand up. Come see us at both, and then
Speaker 1: the twentieth will be in Madison doing our podcast, and
Speaker 1: then the twenty first. I believe you can catch Lisa
Speaker 1: in Madison doing stand up.
Speaker 2: I think the twenty second, but they refuse to put
Speaker 2: it on their website, so I don't know what's happening.
Speaker 2: So TBD on that because you can't buy it. I
Speaker 2: don't think you can even buy tickets to that, Like,
Speaker 2: I don't know why they're doing this to me, but
Speaker 2: it is fine. But also in terms of Halloween, it
Speaker 2: seemed like, I guess people did stuff last year, but
Speaker 2: it really seemed huge this year, like everyone's stories, the
Speaker 2: blocks like the people trigger treated on were packed, everyone's
Speaker 2: costumes and then somewhat Dave Mazzoni posts like the celebrities
Speaker 2: spent money this year.
Speaker 1: Yeah, heiny Kloom's party was back in effact after two
Speaker 1: years off. I think it's just like the covidun Ironically,
Speaker 1: for me, it was like a COVID bounce back Halloween,
Speaker 1: and I feel like everybody was really doing it up.
Speaker 3: And I'm just like fun Halloween positive.
Speaker 2: My favorite one that I saw I didn't see in person, sadly,
Speaker 2: I only saw it online, but a group of people
Speaker 2: dressed up like paparazzi, and then they were running around
Speaker 2: the city like West Village, going Whinny the Pooh, Whinny
Speaker 2: the Poo, and then.
Speaker 1: Like asking questions and are you wearing whinny well?
Speaker 2: And someone said that there was a Patrick and SpongeBob
Speaker 2: like covering their eyes and like pretending to get away
Speaker 2: from the paparazzi and I saw Jesus Christ once, so
Speaker 2: that I think that was like, it's cool to see
Speaker 2: people be so clever, Like I saw a group of
Speaker 2: people be car car washed and they were just like
Speaker 2: spinning around, Like I just love this holiday. I love
Speaker 2: seeing everyone's creativity. I was just a pumpkin this year,
Speaker 2: a casual, just a casual night at the cellar.
Speaker 1: I went to one party with Jared and we just
Speaker 1: wore our peanut butter and jelly costumes from last year
Speaker 1: because we just did not get it together. Normally, I
Speaker 1: love to be something that people are talking about, Like
Speaker 1: last year, Jared and I went as the people from
Speaker 1: Lula Row documentary. The year before I went as one
Speaker 1: of the people from the Vow docuseries. So I really
Speaker 1: do try to like be on the pulse. But this
Speaker 1: year I just couldn't get it together. And I felt
Speaker 1: like all anyone was talking about was Kanye and I
Speaker 1: was like, I just I can't, I can't think of
Speaker 1: I loved Benny Drama. Benito Skinner and his friends were
Speaker 1: like the Britney Spears wedding photo that was so great.
Speaker 2: He's a genius of our time. And then also him
Speaker 2: and his boyfriend were Anamorphs.
Speaker 1: Do you know that book series? No? Is that how
Speaker 1: you say it? Casey Anamorphs?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they were like a lizard man and a
Speaker 2: horse girl and they did full shoots and like pose,
Speaker 2: I mean, just I love it. I love it. I'd
Speaker 2: like to go all out, but like Kara said, this
Speaker 2: was not the year, and I was happy to be
Speaker 2: a pumpkin.
Speaker 1: And you can tell the people that are really into
Speaker 1: it because they have multiple costumes, like Shay Coule did
Speaker 1: that hilarious Patrick thing one night where she was Patrick
Speaker 1: Starr from SpongeBob in drag, which was hilarious, and then
Speaker 1: she was this amazing yellow Mighty morphin Power Ranger Halloween.
Speaker 1: So people that have like two amazing costs. Well, and
Speaker 1: she was the scream Mask last night, Yes she did.
Speaker 1: I saw that too, Like she was a coarse drag.
Speaker 3: Queens are gonna do it.
Speaker 1: And I love seeing all the little kids and what
Speaker 1: they ask for.
Speaker 2: One of the girls I follow on socials from my
Speaker 2: salondes her son asked to be Halloween decorations, which I
Speaker 2: think is so cute.
Speaker 1: I mean, of course, this is so funny because this
Speaker 1: episode's coming out mid November. Everyone's gonna be like, why
Speaker 1: are you guys talking about Halloween? But we are in
Speaker 1: the time machine as usual. By the time you listen
Speaker 1: to this, my COVID will be long gone, Thank fucking god.
Speaker 2: Well, I also wanted to say I did see Moona again,
Speaker 2: and one of our listeners was there and she said
Speaker 2: that she found out about the concert from me on
Speaker 2: this podcast.
Speaker 1: It was me.
Speaker 2: She didn't know that they were going to be in
Speaker 2: La and then so I was so glad and the
Speaker 2: will turn small.
Speaker 3: So I feel like I ran into a lot of people.
Speaker 2: A lot of celebs were there, Chris since Stewart, Haley Keoko.
Speaker 2: I mean it was a star studded lesbian affair. And
Speaker 2: say Muna posted they'd be They're going to be opening
Speaker 2: for Taylor Swift for a few shows. And so one
Speaker 2: of the Muna girls their girlfriend dresses Heather not Heather Barlow,
Speaker 2: Lisa Barlow, Lisa Barlow, Lisa Barlow.
Speaker 1: There were a lot of Renas this year too. Did
Speaker 1: you see that was on eminem Renna. Yeah, there were
Speaker 1: so many Rennas also, Taylor Swift. I just read and
Speaker 1: I know this is again we're in the time machine.
Speaker 1: This is late, but has ten of the top ten
Speaker 1: on the Billboard Hot one hundred. The top ten are
Speaker 1: her songs, and it's the first. I think it's like
Speaker 1: the first time in history a man has not been
Speaker 1: in the top ten.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, she kicked everybody's ass out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm happy for Taylor. She's obviously skilled, she obviously
Speaker 2: a songwriter. But to me, and I've seen her in concert,
Speaker 2: I get the album, I do it, I'm in it.
Speaker 1: She's average.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Like I'm with Theretha Franklin, where it's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: her gowns are nice.
Speaker 1: Like beautiful gowns, beautiful gowns. I mean it's just like.
Speaker 2: The voice is whatever, the dances what you know, it's
Speaker 2: just kind.
Speaker 1: Of whatever but really cool and it's all petty. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I think that's what so many people like because
Speaker 1: they're like, I'm whatever too, That's what it is.
Speaker 2: Because I think it was Sandra burnher and Watch What
Speaker 2: Happens Live, who is just what did she say about Taylor?
Speaker 2: Where it's like she needs to go live a life
Speaker 2: so she actually has things to write about, Like how
Speaker 2: is she writing all of these songs?
Speaker 1: She doesn't do anything, and that's why Jaren used to
Speaker 1: have a whole joke about that, how Taylor Swift is
Speaker 1: like that twenty three year old girl who's like not
Speaker 1: had any experiences complaining to you about like how Starbucks
Speaker 1: didn't make their coffee the right way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly what she's like, where it's like leave
Speaker 2: me alone the press, and then it's like intricate little
Speaker 2: clues within all the songs that have to do with
Speaker 2: Kim Kardashi, you know, like it's all about her.
Speaker 1: Like she wants relief from the strap.
Speaker 2: But then everything is like a little puzzle of like
Speaker 2: pettiness with these little arguments, and it's like, I don't know,
Speaker 2: maybe it's your fault. Maybe Taylor needs to come on enemies. Also,
Speaker 2: I do want her to listen to this podcast. And
Speaker 2: now I'm spiraling that I've called her average on this
Speaker 2: show because she loves us views, she loves true crime.
Speaker 2: I obviously am obsessed, but it is like, all right, yeah,
Speaker 2: I get all the ten songs.
Speaker 1: Cool. Maybe it's because everyone thought she was an arian princess.
Speaker 1: I only brought it up because I thought it was
Speaker 1: cool she kicked all the men off.
Speaker 2: I thought's why I brought it up. Yeah, but like
Speaker 2: why hasn't Gaga done that? Like I just don't get it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm just confused. Why is it these fans? Because I
Speaker 2: know someone that like for their comedy albums, they at
Speaker 2: all times have their YouTube and albums playing on mute
Speaker 2: in the background of their computer at all times, so
Speaker 2: then there's residuals and you get views. So I know
Speaker 2: people that do all that stuff, and maybe these fans
Speaker 2: are doing it. I'm just confused how she's overpowered everyone
Speaker 2: one without being more talented than everyone, right, yeah.
Speaker 1: But it's like how we know people in comedy who
Speaker 1: have just figured out the formula? Do you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? It can be a formula. She's figured out
Speaker 1: the formula, and what is that? Well, the well, first
Speaker 1: of all, she has mass appeal. Gaga is very very talented.
Speaker 1: But I don't know housewives in Minnesota or what or
Speaker 1: like Iowa might not be like be a little bit like, oh,
Speaker 1: she's a little too much for me. But Taylor is
Speaker 1: like perfectly palatable for everyone. Adult, yes, children, little kids,
Speaker 1: like you know, teens. Taylor's got the whole thing covered, yeah, country, yeah,
Speaker 1: all of it. It's sort of like how Adele is
Speaker 1: a huge superstar, hugely famous, but her music appeals to it.
Speaker 1: I mean a hugely talented Excuse me, is what I
Speaker 1: meant to say. But like, her music just appeals to
Speaker 1: so many different people, So I think that's It's like
Speaker 1: Drake has hit nine out of the top ten I
Speaker 1: was reading in this article, out of the top ten,
Speaker 1: but but Justin Bieber kept a song in the top
Speaker 1: ten that prevented him from getting this whole full record
Speaker 1: like what Taylor has, and like what with Drake. It's like,
Speaker 1: my mom's not listening to Drake, but my mom would
Speaker 1: probably would listen to Adele or probably Taylor Swift. You know.
Speaker 2: It's yeah now, and we talk about how she's a badass,
Speaker 2: you know, like I do like that she you know,
Speaker 2: Scooter Braun tried to fuck her and she was like,
Speaker 2: not today, bitch, I'm gonna You're not gonna make a
Speaker 2: dime off of me.
Speaker 1: And I do like that.
Speaker 2: But I always say about her, she's like, when you're
Speaker 2: a perpetual, it's the woman who cried wolf when everything's
Speaker 2: an issue. When there really is this big thing with
Speaker 2: Scooter Braun, everyone's already annoyed with you, you know, what
Speaker 2: I mean, but I've seen her in I mean, she
Speaker 2: gets my money, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But I also and I love to
Speaker 1: have her on the pod, love to talk about her
Speaker 1: cat named Olivia Benson.
Speaker 2: And what also bothered me is like in her documentary,
Speaker 2: she it was just seems stage to me. It's like, oh,
Speaker 2: now you're gonna say who you vote for, Like now
Speaker 2: you're gonna fucking be into gay people. Like she is
Speaker 2: so fucked to me because of that, Like I don't
Speaker 2: think Trump would have won if Taylor Swift fucking said
Speaker 2: fuck him.
Speaker 3: I really don't like when she said she was voting
Speaker 3: and stuff.
Speaker 2: I think it was like tens of thousands of people
Speaker 2: registered to vote because of her, you know, but it
Speaker 2: was just too late. Like it's just you know, she's
Speaker 2: she's not ahead of the curve, she's always behind it,
Speaker 2: I think where it's like she wasn't political in any
Speaker 2: way until it was like you're fucked if you're not,
Speaker 2: like you have to say he's bad. But it was
Speaker 2: too late, bitch, the election already happened, you know, Like yeah,
Speaker 2: it's kind of like that.
Speaker 1: It's like you could have been pro gay people. How
Speaker 1: do you be pro like you could have had gay
Speaker 1: people's backs over a decade ago, but you waited until
Speaker 1: it was like, oh, now I'm gonna till drag Race
Speaker 1: won nine Emmys and now you're gonna be like.
Speaker 2: I support gay people. It's just it's kind of it's
Speaker 2: funny to me. And that's the thing.
Speaker 1: It's like there's a little bit of I guess they're
Speaker 1: all phony and bad, but then people aren't, Like she
Speaker 1: did the doctorate at the NYU, and everyone's like, you're
Speaker 1: not a doctor, And it's like celebrities always do this,
Speaker 1: Like why are you mad that she's doing it? Like
Speaker 1: somebody's always do the speeches, So it's weird. There's something
Speaker 1: in her that really you're either fully obsessed, like I've
Speaker 1: never seen people obsessed over a person before, or it's like,
Speaker 1: but I love to hate or hate to love her,
Speaker 1: it's not a full time thing for me. You're right
Speaker 1: in the middle, baby, I just I don't even know
Speaker 1: if it's in the middle, but it's just And I
Speaker 1: don't know if you saw like this latest video she
Speaker 1: fully copied like a young musician's video, like frame for frame.
Speaker 1: I watched both of them side by side.
Speaker 2: Wait, which video the newest one antihroo Yeah, where it's
Speaker 2: like two of them, Like this younger musician posted her
Speaker 2: video and it is like truly almost.
Speaker 1: From Okay, we got to wrap it up so I
Speaker 1: can go watch this. I love watching side by side
Speaker 1: copycat shit, Wait, did I want to talk about the
Speaker 1: Iowa thing? Like? I don't even know? I mean, we
Speaker 1: have to wrap it up because we got to get
Speaker 1: into our episode. We got a good one today. But
Speaker 1: Lisa did send me, and a lot of you have
Speaker 1: sent me, actually sent us through our Instagram, which I
Speaker 1: mostly checked this article about this guy in Iowa who
Speaker 1: died like nine years ago, and his daughter is coming
Speaker 1: forward saying he was a serial killer and she helped
Speaker 1: him bury all these bodies.
Speaker 3: Wild.
Speaker 2: I don't want to be like, why didn't you come over?
Speaker 2: You know, she was obviously scared. How long has this
Speaker 2: guy been dead for?
Speaker 1: That's what I was saying. I want to eat to
Speaker 1: fifty people he's killed, yeah, like and mostly sex workers,
Speaker 1: and he she was obviously extremely scared, and she said
Speaker 1: her and her siblings were all forced to do it.
Speaker 1: But then it's like he did die in twenty thirteen,
Speaker 1: and it's twenty twenty two. So I am like wondering
Speaker 1: where the you know, where the confession was a few
Speaker 1: years ago. But I know, well, we'll see, We'll definitely see.
Speaker 1: But yeah, we'll see that chorus because this is definitely
Speaker 1: going to get made into a Netflix show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but also when, yeah, when anything happens now too,
Speaker 2: I'm like, can this please be an SVO Why isn't
Speaker 2: this an SVIO? Like now I'm at this place?
Speaker 3: They did they dig up the bodies though, Like are
Speaker 3: the bodies there?
Speaker 1: Not that I know of? I mean maybe because that
Speaker 1: might be maybe it'll be not taking so long?
Speaker 3: Why is that taking so long?
Speaker 1: Come on?
Speaker 3: This wasn't people? People doesn't?
Speaker 2: Oh my god, did you watch the first episode of
Speaker 2: White Lotus?
Speaker 3: Not yet?
Speaker 1: Not yet.
Speaker 3: Now I'm gonna have plenty of time.
Speaker 1: My schedule has been cleared from COVID, so maybe i'll
Speaker 1: go watch it right now.
Speaker 2: I was like, jam the fucking introthy, I mean, our girl,
Speaker 2: Meghan Faihie slays, She's so good.
Speaker 1: It's so good. Okay, great, I'm gonna go watch it.
Speaker 1: All right, let's get let's get going with it. Don't
Speaker 1: skip the intro. Watch the fucking credits. I know, oh,
Speaker 1: I always do. I love the song, but I love
Speaker 1: the song. Okay, good is it the same song? I
Speaker 1: don't remember last song, but it's really cool. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: the song from the first one was like haunting. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was like, I was like, and I order oh,
Speaker 1: I ordered sushi. I mean it was like a big
Speaker 1: event in my heart. Were having a time. I saw
Speaker 1: on Instagram it looked like really fun, I having COVID. Okay, helloney,
Speaker 1: sorry to be a bummer, but this is a great episode.
Speaker 3: Guys, stay fucking tuned.
Speaker 1: And give it up for Kara, you know, push them
Speaker 1: through COVID to do this.
Speaker 3: I love to push through here.
Speaker 1: I am okay.
Speaker 3: Today is the day for some harm.
Speaker 1: It is season nine, episode five, and Tamaratuni is the thumbnail,
Speaker 1: so you know this is gonna be a good episode.
Speaker 3: It starts out with like a young one.
Speaker 1: I think I know exactly where she is in Central Park,
Speaker 1: Like she's it's sort of I don't know, I can't
Speaker 1: even describe what area it is. But she's like walking
Speaker 1: down these stairs at night. She's looking all around. It
Speaker 1: looks very spooky. She looks scared. She has a reason
Speaker 1: to be scared because out of nowhere, a masked man
Speaker 1: comes flying out, covers her mouth, pins her up against
Speaker 1: a wall, rips her shirt and pulls her underwear off,
Speaker 1: and she screams for help, and then the guy just
Speaker 1: takes a knife out and stabs her. He takes her
Speaker 1: purse and runs and she's just like left lying. And
Speaker 1: then there's like really really upsetting time laps footage. This
Speaker 1: is like what your nightmare is if you get attacked,
Speaker 1: is that you're just gonna be there with no help
Speaker 1: for a long time.
Speaker 3: And that is what happens. They like time lapse to
Speaker 3: the morning and.
Speaker 1: Then like you see people like quickly running by, blah
Speaker 1: blah blah, and then you see like the next thing
Speaker 1: you see is Tamratuni aka Melinda Warner bent over the body,
Speaker 1: kind of assessing the situation. Finn shows up at the
Speaker 1: scene to meet his partner Chester Lake. I don't know
Speaker 1: if we've talked about him enough, Lisa, what's your feeling
Speaker 1: on Lake. I've never loved him. I know some of
Speaker 1: our listeners are horny for him. Yeah, I wouldn't say love.
Speaker 1: I don't love, but I don't hate. He's not a
Speaker 1: who's the one I hate the curly hair bitch. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like Beck, I hate you know what I mean. Chester.
Speaker 2: It's just like I don't think he'll be here for long.
Speaker 2: You don't really spark joy and and I don't like that.
Speaker 1: He's like I never sleep. My family built the whole city.
Speaker 1: I know every train stop, every boat, every build, and
Speaker 1: it's like take a nap, Like I don't. I don't
Speaker 1: like all.
Speaker 2: These special powers he has, but I don't hate him.
Speaker 2: And he is passionate about his.
Speaker 1: Work obviously, Yeah, for some reason, like his deadpan like delivery,
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's just like doesn't do it for it.
Speaker 1: I had a hard time latching onto him. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: even its signature when he's like laying on the bed
Speaker 1: and he's like what what would I do? Like he's annoying.
Speaker 1: He's annoying.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would hate to work with him.
Speaker 1: He would be someone backstage doing breathing exercises, drinking tea
Speaker 1: with honey, and it's like I don't want you around me. Ben.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, Finn can handle it because he's
Speaker 1: been with Munch for so long and he's like I
Speaker 1: can handle a little bit of annoyance, Like so Finn
Speaker 1: probably like, lets it roll water off a duck's back
Speaker 1: Jinx Monsoon style.
Speaker 3: But you know, I feel like, so now.
Speaker 1: We've we're getting all the exposition, white female, mid twenties.
Speaker 3: They're running a rape kit.
Speaker 1: They found her library card and her name is Kate Simes.
Speaker 1: Warner then explains the sad part that this woman bled
Speaker 1: out really slowly, and Lake is like, wow, she could
Speaker 1: have been saved, and it's like, yeah, well there's kind
Speaker 1: of a reason why you're not supposed to walk alone
Speaker 1: in Central Park. I'm not victim blaming, I'm not, but
Speaker 1: don't walk alone in Central Park if you live in
Speaker 1: New York.
Speaker 2: No, this is a good reminder since say I am
Speaker 2: in New York while we're talking about this, and who
Speaker 2: knows what would have happened tonight.
Speaker 3: But now I won't go to the park.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Lake goes to maybe touch her, and Warner's like
Speaker 1: back up and shows that she has this lesion on
Speaker 1: her arm and she'll let us know what it is
Speaker 1: once she figures out what the hell it is.
Speaker 3: And then we're at the credits.
Speaker 2: And the lesion looks wild where it's like it would
Speaker 2: like it could be Heroin, but they would know right
Speaker 2: away if it was so it's not so, then it's like, Okay,
Speaker 2: what the fuck is it?
Speaker 1: And it was like it was it was weird.
Speaker 3: It was weird, not great, not a great looking lesion.
Speaker 1: So then at the morgue, Benson and Stabler are with
Speaker 1: the victim's mother to ida the body. She is obviously
Speaker 1: very upset, saying her daughter knew not to be in
Speaker 1: the park late at night. She gives her a photo
Speaker 1: of Kate, and Kate has like long blonde hair and
Speaker 1: looks absolutely nothing like the woman that we just saw
Speaker 1: get stabbed in the park and lives like wow, that's
Speaker 1: a pretty drastic like change, was like someone on her
Speaker 1: ass or what's going on? And then she's like Jackie
Speaker 1: Solomon one of her students, she was a college counselor
Speaker 1: at the Heller School.
Speaker 3: Kate was so they said Jackie's.
Speaker 1: Dad made a scene and all about attack Kate, and
Speaker 1: they started getting hang up calls and stablers like Walt,
Speaker 1: what did she what did she do? Like, what's the
Speaker 1: situation with this uh, with this student? And then we
Speaker 1: got to one of the wildest music videos we've seen
Speaker 1: on lainer SVU, a music video for the song Come
Speaker 1: On Mister Terrorist, which is a bunch of white girls
Speaker 1: in a rock band called seventy two Virgins, and they're
Speaker 1: singing this like very offensive song about you know, terrorists.
Speaker 3: Like there is a pussy ryot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's they're definitely trying to be like high
Speaker 1: school pussy riot and Finn and Lake are watching it
Speaker 1: in the office of the headmistress at the Heller School
Speaker 1: when we pull out, and she's in a tough position
Speaker 1: because even though the song is offensive, Jackie the girl
Speaker 1: did lose an aunt on nine to eleven, so I
Speaker 1: guess they decided like not to punish her when they
Speaker 1: found out that she was did this music video. But
Speaker 1: Kate Simes found it so offensive that she wrote letters
Speaker 1: to all the colleges that Jackie applied to. That's going
Speaker 1: that's taken the extra step to be you know, I
Speaker 1: really hate Ricky Gervais, but I recently saw a quote
Speaker 1: of his and it was like, how arrogant to think
Speaker 1: you're going to go through life without hearing anything that
Speaker 1: you don't like or that's not offensive to you. It's like,
Speaker 1: so this girl doesn't get to go to college because
Speaker 1: as a teenager she decided to make a I guess
Speaker 1: racist videos do suck.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know what my point is.
Speaker 2: But to write to colleges is like aren't you young?
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Well, but then we do go meet the girl and
Speaker 1: she's a lot. So now we're at the Solomon household
Speaker 1: and the dad is like a full cartoon character of
Speaker 1: a New York person, Like he's just like, you know,
Speaker 1: how much money I donated at school, Like he's really
Speaker 1: like New Yorky. And then Jackie is like, what about
Speaker 1: my free speech? That bitch tried to tank my college applications,
Speaker 1: so like, you know, you're getting some entitlement. It's giving entitlement,
Speaker 1: it's giving young prep school girl.
Speaker 3: The dad is like.
Speaker 1: Shut up, Jackie shouldn't have made that video in the
Speaker 1: first place. So he's definitely like thinks his daughter's like
Speaker 1: a dumb bitch, but also is like, you know, this
Speaker 1: woman shouldn't have meddled in her life and calling all
Speaker 1: these colleges, and the Jackie's like the Kuran says men
Speaker 1: can abuse women physically and berbally and Finn's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's also like so much garbage in the Bible, like
Speaker 1: have you read it.
Speaker 3: And then the.
Speaker 1: Dad's like, we had to take classes at the New
Speaker 1: York Tolerance Centa.
Speaker 3: Like everything is so funny to me in this scene.
Speaker 2: And Jay, you even spelled it for all of us,
Speaker 2: so everyone knows Kara spelled New York New And then
Speaker 2: why a w K hollows d A h l E
Speaker 2: r A ncee.
Speaker 1: But why aren't they read underlined? You clicked ignored, didn't you.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know whether or not I
Speaker 1: never clicked the door. That's a great question. I think
Speaker 1: Google Docs knows when I'm trying to do an affected
Speaker 1: accent in my writing, so they allow it. So Jackie
Speaker 1: like says to the dad, I told you threatening missus
Speaker 1: Simes was a bad idea, and so and the dad's
Speaker 1: like half a million bucks to get into the Ivy League.
Speaker 3: You'd be mad too.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, wow, this is like Operation Varsity Blues
Speaker 1: over here. This man is like trying really hard to
Speaker 1: get his daughter into It's like, wow, you could just
Speaker 1: study and do well.
Speaker 2: It's weird that you went to Varsity Blues and not
Speaker 2: the scandal with Becky from Full House. That's what it is.
Speaker 2: It's called Operation Varsity blues. Oh, I thought of the
Speaker 2: James Vanderbek movie and I.
Speaker 1: Was no, no, no, nothing to do. You're right, you're right.
Speaker 1: But that's what they named the operation. No, I know,
Speaker 1: it's very felicity Huffman. It's very ampt Becky, like I
Speaker 1: think they were trashed in Texas playing football.
Speaker 3: I'm like, what are you talking about?
Speaker 1: No, yeah, it is we I don't really know why
Speaker 1: they call it that, why they called the operation that,
Speaker 1: because it's like, that isn't what operation. I'm on the
Speaker 1: rowing team, Like that's the best part operation rowing team photoshop.
Speaker 1: So yeah, So basically they're admitting that they hassled Kate
Speaker 1: Simes a little bit. But Jackie's like, my dad doesn't
Speaker 1: have the balls to kill anyone, and the dad's like,
Speaker 1: she's got a point, I don't. And yeah, so he's like,
Speaker 1: call the tolerance center. I've got an e mom, a
Speaker 1: rabbi at, a priest who can vouch for my whereabouts.
Speaker 1: But the thing is, it's like she was murdered at midnight.
Speaker 1: Were you at tolerance class at midnight? But whatever, you know,
Speaker 1: I love to find the holes. So then Finn obviously
Speaker 1: gets the warners got something call and they head over
Speaker 1: to Warner's lab to find out that the lesion is
Speaker 1: cutaneous dishmaniasis, which is essentially like a parasite and is
Speaker 1: carried by the female sandfly. So in the whole country
Speaker 1: of the US, there's only like fifty cases a year,
Speaker 1: and they're mostly contracted abroad. The incubation periods like three
Speaker 1: to four weeks. So she bets that Kate was out
Speaker 1: of the country sometime in the last month, and the
Speaker 1: highest incidence of this parasite is with people traveling to
Speaker 1: and from the Middle East. So they start digging into
Speaker 1: some account forensic accounting and like you know, checking out
Speaker 1: her cards and everything. No flight's on her card, but
Speaker 1: a big withdrawal from her savings three weeks ago. Munch
Speaker 1: digs up some footage from the port authority that shows
Speaker 1: Kate at JFK going through the international terminal again, long
Speaker 1: blonde hair, looking nothing like the girl we saw get murdered.
Speaker 1: And then Stabler, of course, is like, I got a
Speaker 1: friend at the Joint Terrorism Task Force who can help
Speaker 1: me out, Like, so we go to him because like,
Speaker 1: basically they find her at the terminal, but they're like,
Speaker 1: where was she going? So the Joint Task Force guys,
Speaker 1: like she was going JFK to Istanbul and it was
Speaker 1: hard to spot her in the footage in we are
Speaker 1: but Kre Turkey because she had cut and dyed her hair.
Speaker 1: And then this guy magically finds these photos of Kate
Speaker 1: crossing over the border into Iraq, even though she has
Speaker 1: full like face covering and head covering. Like, so, I
Speaker 1: don't know how they just found her, but apparently a
Speaker 1: twenty something white woman with no ties to the Arab
Speaker 1: community didn't set off any alarm bells. But now they're curious, like,
Speaker 1: why the hell was she in Iraq? So, no, that
Speaker 1: seems more curious. Yeah, that seems strange. Yeah, it's like
Speaker 1: if you have family or you married, you married in Iraqi,
Speaker 1: that makes like a lot more sense, Like who is
Speaker 1: this woman? So they go in, they talk to the
Speaker 1: mom again and she's like, I have no idea why
Speaker 1: she would be in the Middle East. She told me
Speaker 1: she was doing a habitat for humanity situation in New Orleans.
Speaker 1: And she's like, well, Kate did study Arabic in college.
Speaker 1: And they're like, oh, maybe she got recruited by the government.
Speaker 1: And she's like, how who has the time between her
Speaker 1: job and her volunteer work at the refugee center, and
Speaker 1: it's like, what refugee center, ma'am, Like when they said
Speaker 1: Middle East, this all should have come to you, But
Speaker 1: I mean it comes to her eventually. And now she
Speaker 1: did just lose her daughter an acquire crime, of course,
Speaker 1: but I'd be wanting to connect some dots if it
Speaker 1: were me, you know what. So now we're at this
Speaker 1: refugee center and it's where refugees are seeking asylum. Kate
Speaker 1: was up a translator for them, using her Arabic. This
Speaker 1: woman is in one of the most classic walking talks ever.
Speaker 1: I mean, she is just like walking through a room
Speaker 1: packed with refugees, still talking, picking up papers, handing people things.
Speaker 1: Benson is stabler want to see Kate's files, And at
Speaker 1: first the boss is like, why so you can harass
Speaker 1: her clients, and then she's like, okay, wait, I do
Speaker 1: want to find out what happened to Kate. And she
Speaker 1: admits that Kate had everything on her computer, which was
Speaker 1: intriguing stolen in a break in two days earlier, even
Speaker 1: though nothing else was stolen from the center, So something's
Speaker 1: up here. On Monday, some guy called the center desperate
Speaker 1: to talk to Kate. So Stabler calls up you know whoever,
Speaker 1: the magic Tech people and says, dump all the phones
Speaker 1: to this sent all the phone calls to the center,
Speaker 1: and they obviously have tracked it down. Into the next scene,
Speaker 1: we are at an apartment. A woman in a hijab
Speaker 1: answers and she's like, we're looking for It's sorry, it's
Speaker 1: Benson a Stabler, And they're like, we're looking for Harun,
Speaker 1: a boss. And the woman says, I'm Haroun's wife. And
Speaker 1: Haroun is dead, done done, Like that's you know, a shock.
Speaker 1: He died the same night as Kate, allegedly of a
Speaker 1: heart attack while driving his cab. And his wife is
Speaker 1: not buying it. She's like, he was murdered one hundred
Speaker 1: percent by your government.
Speaker 2: This is yeah, but the government is like bad at
Speaker 2: their job here, because it's like, you're only going to
Speaker 2: steal the one laptop, like make it take a few
Speaker 2: extra things, yeah, confuse the case.
Speaker 3: You're going to kill both of them on the same day.
Speaker 1: What are you doing? I know, yeah, you're right. It's
Speaker 1: like making it too easy to piece together. So basically
Speaker 1: we're talking to Haroun's widow and she's like wed for
Speaker 1: two years. We risk our lives to help the US
Speaker 1: government in the first Golf War. That's how we got
Speaker 1: a is here. And then after nine to eleven everything changed.
Speaker 1: They handcuffed he Run, they took him away. He lost
Speaker 1: fifty pounds in this camp. They broke his body and
Speaker 1: crushed his soul, she says. On Monday, she said Harun
Speaker 1: was very nervous that he had to go meet someone,
Speaker 1: and she thought that when she got him back from
Speaker 1: the camp they would be able to start over. But
Speaker 1: then they found him and killed him. She's obviously very distraught.
Speaker 1: So now we are with our Queen Melinda Warner looking
Speaker 1: at her Run's body. There are no scars or visible
Speaker 1: wounds really except ligature marks around the wrist. And the
Speaker 1: guy had torn rotator cuffs and advanced congestive heart failure.
Speaker 1: All of this is consistent with military torture. These are
Speaker 1: like stress positions, like that he was in like with
Speaker 1: the like your arms pinned back behind you. And she
Speaker 1: has a diagram that she points to very quickly, and
Speaker 1: she checks his stomach and he had wish now ski ulcers,
Speaker 1: which are a sign of hypothermia. So ice ba are
Speaker 1: also another part of torture, and so she says, if
Speaker 1: he was in a nice bath, the stress may have
Speaker 1: killed him. And then they're trying to connect Herun to
Speaker 1: Kate and Melinda's like, oh, maybe they were lovers and
Speaker 1: stablers like or terrorists, Like, you know, Stabler's always going
Speaker 1: to kind of go a little bit Republican with it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: do you think Stabler got vexed? He probably is, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a great fucking question. He seems like the kind
Speaker 1: of guy that would be like, I'm with my union,
Speaker 1: needs to stand up for me and my rights. So,
Speaker 1: you know, liv comes back from a phone call, and
Speaker 1: as always such a funny plot device in this show
Speaker 1: that it's always like, what's next up? Someone just got
Speaker 1: a phone call, here's the next stop. And they found
Speaker 1: Harun's cab with a business card in it for doctor
Speaker 1: Kelly Alvin at the Mercy Hospital Clinic for Survivors of Torture.
Speaker 1: Now we're watching a video of hern talking to doctor
Speaker 1: Alvin and Kate is right next to him as his translator,
Speaker 1: So we're putting this together. That's how they know each other,
Speaker 1: translating for him, and they're talking to doctor Alvin live
Speaker 1: and the actor is named Jennifer van Dijk, and I
Speaker 1: thought for sure I knew her. And she's just been
Speaker 1: on Lawn Order like ten times across all four franchises,
Speaker 1: so that's how I've seen her face.
Speaker 3: And hern story is like terrible.
Speaker 1: He talks about how they questioned him for twenty hours
Speaker 1: a day, made him stand naked in front of female soldiers,
Speaker 1: let him around on a leash, like all these like
Speaker 1: harrowing torture tactics. Haroun was keeping a journal and Kate
Speaker 1: wanted him to go public with it, and she was
Speaker 1: typing it all up on her computer at work, which
Speaker 1: explains why it got snatched. And they go back to
Speaker 1: the tape and they watch a piece of it where
Speaker 1: Haroun says he was grabbing a coffee at a diner
Speaker 1: on the West Side when he saw his torturer. So
Speaker 1: now they do this thing where they're like, Okay, there's
Speaker 1: three hundred diners on the west Side, but luckily annoying
Speaker 1: Lake knows where all the crews hang out by ethnicity. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is what I mean. He has this like knowledge
Speaker 1: where I'm like, I don't buy it, bro't, but yeah,
Speaker 1: you were sleep so I gotta nowhere to get a
Speaker 1: good poached egg like you would be if I met
Speaker 1: you on a blind date. I would like leave after
Speaker 1: the first drink. Yes, it's getting late. Diners are not
Speaker 1: where you go for poached eggs.
Speaker 2: Sorry, A twenty four hour diner is not the poached
Speaker 2: egg place.
Speaker 1: Right, it's over easy, but you don't go poach at
Speaker 1: so true. So he knows that, like, basically where the
Speaker 1: like I don't know where all the different guys hang out.
Speaker 1: And he knows that the she Heights hang out in
Speaker 1: morning Side Heights and there's eight or nine diners on
Speaker 1: the west side of morning Side Heights. So like they
Speaker 1: basically divide it up and they all go to different diners.
Speaker 1: And then Lake finds the diner and this guy is
Speaker 1: like perfect. He remembers every single damn thing that happened
Speaker 1: at this at this breakfast. He's like, yeah, I remember
Speaker 1: this guy. He was sitting here eat his breakfast. Then
Speaker 1: he saw this couple. He got white as a sheet.
Speaker 1: He puked all over my counter, left me with the
Speaker 1: mess to clean up. He knew like everything pulls the
Speaker 1: receipts and uh. He says that the couple he was
Speaker 1: staring at the lady was a doctor and came up
Speaker 1: and offered to help them, but the husband that she
Speaker 1: was with got all nervous and pulled her away, and
Speaker 1: then the cabby took off harun obviously. So basically the
Speaker 1: theory that they're working over right there on the spot
Speaker 1: is this guy didn't want his story getting out. After
Speaker 1: he tortures her room to keep him quiet, he dies
Speaker 1: and then he ends up killing Kate to keep her quiet.
Speaker 1: So they find a receipt for the breakfast and the
Speaker 1: person that paid for it is doctor Faith Sutton. To
Speaker 1: breakfast twelve bucks a great price. Oh yeah, I thought,
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, yeah.
Speaker 3: Years ago. Yeah, diners are not that cheap anymore.
Speaker 2: Well, so not to blast them, but you know when
Speaker 2: Williamsbury kellogg Diner, fun place I love the waffle fries
Speaker 2: and a girl cheese, they charged nine to ninety nine
Speaker 2: for five mazzarella six.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's not okay, no no no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: no no no, not in my New York, I don't think.
Speaker 1: So they go to question doctor Sutton, who play who
Speaker 1: is played by Elizabeth McGovern very. I mean, to me,
Speaker 1: she's like an actress from my childhood. She was in
Speaker 1: she's having day because I don't know who the fuck
Speaker 1: she is. You don't know where she is. Of course
Speaker 1: she's played a pivotal role in your life. Yes, No,
Speaker 1: because I remember there was Elizabeth Perkins and Elizabeth McGovern
Speaker 1: when I was growing up, and Elizabeth Perkins is like
Speaker 1: the woman from Big and like from Weeds, and then
Speaker 1: this Elizabeth is from She's having a Baby and Handmaid's
Speaker 1: Tale and Downton Abbey, so I would stay Downton Abbey
Speaker 1: of course. So she's Cornl Crawley on Downton Abbey, which
Speaker 1: is like her most American. No, she's American in the
Speaker 1: show too. Oh okay, and she's American. Yeah. So she
Speaker 1: says the man she was with wasn't her husband. It
Speaker 1: was her old army buddy named George Tomford, which is
Speaker 1: tom Ford as a last name, and I kind of
Speaker 1: think that's funny. Anyway, a cop in New Jersey takes
Speaker 1: Vincent and Stabler to George Tomford's house. They find the
Speaker 1: door open, the house has been completely cleared, and this
Speaker 1: cop is like, oh, I know the Tomford's great guy.
Speaker 3: Like our kids play Little League together.
Speaker 1: So it's like he's very shocked that, like the family's
Speaker 1: up and moved out in the middle of the night,
Speaker 1: Like this is sketchy. It's not like, oh yeah, they
Speaker 1: had their house on the market for months. So now
Speaker 1: the Army says he was Special Forces. He had a
Speaker 1: purple heart, a bronze star. He left the Army in
Speaker 1: ninety eight and he has become an employee of Helios
Speaker 1: Defense Industries, which is a British mercenary outfit.
Speaker 3: Helios.
Speaker 1: Basically what happens is they think is Helios has sent
Speaker 1: Tomford after Harun. Then after he dies, he kills Kate
Speaker 1: to cover his tracks. And so they go and they
Speaker 1: speak to Jack Rexton, who is the head of Helios
Speaker 1: in New York, and he is a very weird British man,
Speaker 1: like he has a very like that Britishy villain accent,
Speaker 1: and he initially is like, I Will, Will, I can't
Speaker 1: handle a Tom Finds file. And then he's like, okay,
Speaker 1: actually you can have it. So he they look through
Speaker 1: his file and he's got ten letters of reprimand in
Speaker 1: his file, like sessive force and threatening prisoners with rape
Speaker 1: and murder. Like he does not seem like a good guy,
Speaker 1: and he's listed as a behavioral science consultant, even though
Speaker 1: he has zero training as a behavioral scientist. And the
Speaker 1: connection with doctor Sutton is that she was a member
Speaker 1: of Tomford's interrogation team in Massoul. So they go speak
Speaker 1: to her and she's like, it's not torture. We use
Speaker 1: stressor's tailored to certain vulnerabilities to help us gather information.
Speaker 1: I would hardly call that torture. She's very chill for
Speaker 1: what's going on here. She's acting like this is all
Speaker 1: a huge misunderstanding. Yeah, so she doesn't really think this
Speaker 1: is torture. And when they ask her if she recognizes Harun,
Speaker 1: she's like, oh, yeah, that's the guy that barfed, Like
Speaker 1: she doesn't recognize him in any other capacity. Well, she's
Speaker 1: a lying bitch, that's what she is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like if you don't think you did anything wrong,
Speaker 2: why wouldn't you say like, oh, yeah, I interrogated him,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? And like I thought you
Speaker 2: didn't do anything. I thought you didn't torture. So what's the.
Speaker 1: Problem, right, I didn't really even catch that she's fully
Speaker 1: lying here. That's true, Like unless she's tortured so many
Speaker 1: guys that she couldn't possibly tell them apart and like
Speaker 1: remember each one of them, Like who knows?
Speaker 3: But that's not a good excuse either.
Speaker 1: She says her work in Iraq was lawful, humane, and
Speaker 1: imperative to US intelligence. Okay, so now we see through
Speaker 1: the window that who's watching her being interrogated is Warner
Speaker 1: and Huang, and that is not a matchup. You see
Speaker 1: that much. I was excited to see this duo sparring
Speaker 1: it up. Huang doesn't think that this woman was directly
Speaker 1: involved in any torture, but Melinda is not buying it.
Speaker 1: She's like, hello, hippocratic oath, like first do no harm?
Speaker 3: Like what's what?
Speaker 1: Like this doctor is completely going against everything that you
Speaker 1: know the medical profession stands for. And Huang is like, well,
Speaker 1: when I trick people into, you know, confessing or telling
Speaker 1: me something about themselves, I'm using my psychological interrogation skills.
Speaker 1: I'm definitely doing some harm, but it's for the greater good.
Speaker 1: And then Melinda's like, yo, peep the optopsy, it's not good,
Speaker 1: Like nothing is that's happened to this man is good.
Speaker 1: So now back in doctor Sutton's interrogation, Olivia is like,
Speaker 1: so did Tomford learn how to kill with one stab?
Speaker 1: To the Heart and the Army or did you teach
Speaker 1: him that kind of anatomy lesson? And then in walks
Speaker 1: Stephen Weber, the guy from Wings. He's been on three
Speaker 1: svus as attorney Matthew Brayden, that's who he is here.
Speaker 1: And he shows up to be her lawyer with Novak
Speaker 1: right behind, and she's like interviews. It's like Gary Cooper, right,
Speaker 1: but younger a little bit yeah, and a little bit
Speaker 1: more handsome, like he was on a show Wings for
Speaker 1: a really long time? Was that about the air Force?
Speaker 1: The airport? It was about an airport. I believe it
Speaker 1: was about an airport in Nantucket. I think that's what
Speaker 1: Wings is about about, like a tiny airport. He calls
Speaker 1: them out to try for like like all their tactics.
Speaker 1: He's like, you're questioning her without counsel, you're blocking her
Speaker 1: path to the door. You put her in this chair
Speaker 1: with a short legs at wobble so she can't get comfortable.
Speaker 3: It's very like who's torturing who?
Speaker 1: But it's like, no, trying to make somebody uncomfortable is
Speaker 1: a little bit different than like tying their hands behind
Speaker 1: their back for like a weekend.
Speaker 3: So now who's paying.
Speaker 1: For braid It's funny, what'd you do this weekend? Oh,
Speaker 1: you know, just hang in, But they really are so
Speaker 1: they want to know who's paying for Braiden, because you
Speaker 1: get the feeling that he's kind of like a high
Speaker 1: priced attorney, and Daddy Craigan is like, my money's on helios.
Speaker 1: They also bought Tomford and his whole family first class
Speaker 1: flights to Bahrain, which coincidentally does not have an extradition
Speaker 1: treaty with the US, so we're not getting him back.
Speaker 1: And basically, Novak's kind of like, well, there's not much
Speaker 1: to be done here, and Melinda's like, why not try
Speaker 1: doctor Sutton. Her interrogation techniques caused Tarun's death and probably
Speaker 1: the death of many more people, and if he died
Speaker 1: in New York City, then there's jurisdiction and any reasonable
Speaker 1: doc could have foreseen that her tactics would lead to
Speaker 1: death and that they're or if there's a case for
Speaker 1: criminally negligent homicide.
Speaker 3: Warner is really invested here.
Speaker 1: She's like very grossed out by like this woman's tactics
Speaker 1: and wants to see this one through because I don't
Speaker 1: think that's my favorite. I like when any of the detectives, lawyers.
Speaker 2: And now here Melinda get invested when they really care
Speaker 2: about a case.
Speaker 1: I like that she's putting all her money in this
Speaker 1: to the stock of this case. She is invested. So
Speaker 1: they go to talk to doctor Alvin again at the
Speaker 1: torture clinic and she explains that after nine and eleven,
Speaker 1: doctors started using medical records to target physical and emotional
Speaker 1: weaknesses and they called it torture light. And then you
Speaker 1: go into She's like, let me just show you some
Speaker 1: of the people that's like elestra. It's like you get diarrhea,
Speaker 1: yea torture light. It's like as okay. So they go
Speaker 1: into inside. You laughed. It didn't work. At first, you
Speaker 1: were kind of silent, and I was like, that's humiliating.
Speaker 1: I didn't get what you were saying. And then I
Speaker 1: got because it doesn't make sense, all right. So we
Speaker 1: go into this montage of people speaking in their mother
Speaker 1: tongues with subtitles explaining how they were tortured, like had
Speaker 1: they were blasted with ac pumped with water until they
Speaker 1: pissed themselves, like starve, humiliated, fed pork when it was
Speaker 1: against the religion. They have nightmares, pain lifelong injuries like,
Speaker 1: and that's kind of all they need to hear.
Speaker 3: So Benson and Stabler go and arrest doctor Sutton.
Speaker 1: Bail is set at a half a mill, not a
Speaker 1: low bail, and although they don't seem to act like
Speaker 1: there's gonna be an problem paying it, and Stephen Weber
Speaker 1: aka Bryden, the Attorney, delivers a motion to dismiss, saying
Speaker 1: it's out of jurisdiction since the torture took place in
Speaker 1: I Rock, not in New York.
Speaker 3: And then our.
Speaker 1: Favorite judge, Louise Lewis Lois Louis Lois Preston. She takes
Speaker 1: Novak's argument into consideration that this is continuous jurisdiction since
Speaker 1: the tactics were taught in New York and that the
Speaker 1: victim then died in New York, it's continuous jurisdiction. So
Speaker 1: Brayden tries to sass Novak, and he's like, you know,
Speaker 1: he's kind of like, look at you on your high horse.
Speaker 1: Like his it doesn't it doesn't even work as a joke.
Speaker 1: He's like, how do you walk down these steps while
Speaker 1: you're on your high horse? It's like horses know how
Speaker 1: to walk on steps anyway? Or do they don't.
Speaker 3: They can't walk down steps.
Speaker 1: Remember I told a story about Retta and how I
Speaker 1: was doing this horse and they like forced the horse
Speaker 1: and then the horse wouldn't leave the stage because it
Speaker 1: was scared of going downstairs. Okay, that was standing. I
Speaker 1: don't think it made a lot of sense. He's like, hey,
Speaker 1: you walking down those stairs on that high horse, or
Speaker 1: it didn't. It wasn't making a lot of sense. I
Speaker 1: just don't like his attitude towards our our Casey Novak. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he's sassing her and she goes did you know
Speaker 1: that support for the US presence in Iraq dropped fifty
Speaker 1: percent after Abu grab pictures came out and Branden like
Speaker 1: shows Novak up picture of this little girl, and we
Speaker 1: basically find out that Braden used to be a cop,
Speaker 1: and he explains that this little girl was buried alive
Speaker 1: in Brooklyn. The purp would not confess for like forty
Speaker 1: eight hours, and then this guy had his partner leave
Speaker 1: the room and broke the guy's arm in three places.
Speaker 1: He confessed where the girl was, They found her, and
Speaker 1: now she's alive. And so his argument is like, isn't
Speaker 1: it cool how torture is cool and works, and Casey's like,
Speaker 1: you could have been wrong, you know, so and he's like,
Speaker 1: but I wasn't, you know. So he basically gets a
Speaker 1: call at the same moment that he's talking to Casey
Speaker 1: that Judge Preston is going for the continuous jurisdiction argument,
Speaker 1: So they're going to trial baby, and they are in trial.
Speaker 1: Next scene showing portions of Harun's video detailing his torture.
Speaker 1: Doctor Warner is on the stand and she's explaining that
Speaker 1: Haroun died of hypothermically induced cardiac arrhythmia and he had
Speaker 1: no prior history of heart disease. So then Braiden goes
Speaker 1: to cross examine Melinda and is like, can you definitively.
Speaker 3: Say that these practice has caused this death? And she can't.
Speaker 1: You know, It's kind of like what they were saying
Speaker 1: before in Loophole, like I can't definitively say that this
Speaker 1: poison gave all these people these illnesses, but like it's
Speaker 1: pretty likely you just cannot definitively say it. So anyway,
Speaker 1: that's like the ending of Melinda's testimony, Like she's like,
Speaker 1: you can't say that, I can't say that, but she
Speaker 1: looks pissed because she's very positive that this is what
Speaker 1: caused it. Doctor Sutton is on the stand now and
Speaker 1: she said she's been questioning terrorist suspects since nine to eleven.
Speaker 1: And they show a picture of this terrorist who led
Speaker 1: an anti American Chite militia and they interrogated him and
Speaker 1: they found all these musicians, so wow, interrogation works. And
Speaker 1: then she reveals that Helios later questioned his cousin, this terrorist,
Speaker 1: and his cousin was Haruna Boss. Everyone in the courtroom gasps.
Speaker 1: Order in the court like, this man being cousins with
Speaker 1: this terrorist makes him an automatic terrorist to everybody in
Speaker 1: this courtroom.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a cousin, even'n to in year Like,
Speaker 2: what does a cousin mean?
Speaker 3: Nothing?
Speaker 1: Yeah, my cousin is a psycho. She blocked me on
Speaker 1: Facebook and votes for Trump. We're not together on anything,
Speaker 1: you know. So doctor Sutton is maintaining that beating, electric shock, waterboarding,
Speaker 1: none of that was part of it of what they
Speaker 1: did for these interrogations, and she said that's why I'm there.
Speaker 1: A physician is there to stop things from getting out
Speaker 1: of hand. And Novak's like, oh, pardon me, weren't there
Speaker 1: doctors at Abu Grabe and she shows a picture of
Speaker 1: a man wearing a hood with his hands tied behind
Speaker 1: his back, like at a ninety degree angle from his back,
Speaker 1: you know, like a stress position for sure. And she's like,
Speaker 1: is this part of what you do? And she's like, yes,
Speaker 1: it is. She admits that it is, and she admits
Speaker 1: that they stay in that position sometimes for twenty four
Speaker 1: to forty eight hours, but doesn't know about lasting harm
Speaker 1: because the follow up is done by camp physicians. And
Speaker 1: Novak's like, well, let me tell you about the lasting harm.
Speaker 1: A fifth of the detainees who died in New York
Speaker 1: US custody were young men with no his of heart issues,
Speaker 1: and you had no suspicion that your methods could lead
Speaker 1: to death. And then doctor Sutton launches straight into a
Speaker 1: speech that my only my dad could love.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I was about to say, it's like you're
Speaker 2: trying to be whoopier and artily, but you ain't shit bitch,
Speaker 2: you know not, Elizabeth McGovern, no shade, But we don't
Speaker 2: care about what you're saying. You're not touching me or
Speaker 2: my soul, and I will not care my speech along,
Speaker 2: even though you think you're being powerful.
Speaker 1: Exactly, and she's like, miss Novak, how would you protect
Speaker 1: our country? I have a son in Iraq? How would
Speaker 1: you protect him? You think asking nicely is going to
Speaker 1: get them to tell us when they're flying the next
Speaker 1: set of plane into our buildings, and it's like, wow,
Speaker 1: they're just like so pulling on nine to eleven so
Speaker 1: hard in this episode. And it is an episode from
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, right right, let me look, no,
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, so I guess it's five years
Speaker 1: after nine to eleven, so or six years, so they're
Speaker 1: still they're still hitting it pretty hard with getting people
Speaker 1: to feel, you know, sort of pulled in two directions
Speaker 1: about night eleven and then she so she's going on
Speaker 1: her little rampage. Judge Lois Preston is like, bitch, shut
Speaker 1: the fuck up, stopped yelling. And then in the middle
Speaker 1: of all this, the adjuror has a heart attack. It's
Speaker 1: so wild. This old man's like ugh, and then just
Speaker 1: keels over. Sutton and Warner start working together to help him.
Speaker 1: They're like doing chest compressions, Warner's doing mouth to fucking mouth.
Speaker 3: It's wild.
Speaker 1: So obviously, once the person that's on trial is a
Speaker 1: hero in the middle of the trial.
Speaker 3: It cannot go on. It's declared a mistrial.
Speaker 1: She's on the cover of like, you know, the New
Speaker 1: York Ledger as like the hero of the situation. Bryden
Speaker 1: is there just like smugging it up to Stabler. He's
Speaker 1: like in the precinct, He's like, your whole job is
Speaker 1: about coercion? Are you telling me you've never laid hands?
Speaker 1: And Stabler, in a rare moment of self awareness and maturity, goes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I have, and nine times out of ten it was counterproductive.
Speaker 1: I'm not proud of it. That's a shock. You wouldn't
Speaker 1: know it by looking at a jacket. You wouldn't know it.
Speaker 1: So then Melinda blows in with a little bit of
Speaker 1: good news that she reported doctor Sutton to the Medical
Speaker 1: Board and that they're going to review the status of
Speaker 1: her medical license. At the Medical Board review, she's saying
Speaker 1: medical ethics didn't apply because there was no doctor patient relationship.
Speaker 1: I was a scientific consultant. And they're kind of like,
Speaker 1: are you saying what happens in Iraq stays in Iraq?
Speaker 1: Like it's just not, it's just not. You can't be like,
Speaker 1: I'm not a doctor here, like in this specific moment,
Speaker 1: I don't have to be a doctor because these aren't
Speaker 1: my like actual patients, and I'm just a consultant, like
Speaker 1: a drop irresponsibility.
Speaker 2: I hope in my lifetime that what happens in Vegas
Speaker 2: stays in Vegas, disappears like the bomb, Like I just like,
Speaker 2: I can't, I can't.
Speaker 3: I mean the phrase the bomb.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like we don't hear that anymore, you know, Yeah,
Speaker 2: why you do.
Speaker 3: From really dorky people, but they're trying to be funny.
Speaker 1: Yeah, people will be like, oh I still hear people
Speaker 1: be like that's the bomb dot com. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: get stop stop. I just hate the what happens in
Speaker 1: a lot? Yeah really, I go, yeah, it's not good.
Speaker 1: So basically, right after this medical board review, Warner's walking
Speaker 1: out and doctor Sutton is right behind her, and she's like,
Speaker 1: are you happy? A temporary suspension can still ruin a career?
Speaker 1: So this bitch just got temporary suspended and she's like,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say I'm pleased, And the doctor Sutton is like,
Speaker 1: this country is at war and I've got the skills
Speaker 1: to contribute to that fight. And she's like, you took
Speaker 1: an oath you don't get to take a time out
Speaker 1: because we're at war.
Speaker 3: The Oath was written for times like these.
Speaker 1: Mike drop, that's a wrap on Doctor Warner and that
Speaker 1: is Dick Wolf Baby.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is, like that's the whole. That's what
Speaker 2: integrity is. Like, that's what's hard. It's like, what are
Speaker 2: you doing when no one's looking? Or when you don't
Speaker 2: want to follow the rules? You know, like that is
Speaker 2: the point? Easy to be a good person when ship's chill?
Speaker 1: Yeah, or are you gonna are you gonna share your
Speaker 1: food when it's wartime?
Speaker 3: Okay, totally thank you for that.
Speaker 2: And you know, I'll take us along on the on
Speaker 2: the real crime soon. I mean when we get back
Speaker 2: from the break soon soon. Who know who's to say when?
Speaker 2: So this is obviously my favorite. I love when they
Speaker 2: say not the crime, not this, but I love when
Speaker 2: they say the crime in the episode when they reference it.
Speaker 1: Whatever.
Speaker 2: This is more of a not a theory, but it's
Speaker 2: Abu Grabe, so it's not just one specific thing. It's
Speaker 2: kind of like a moment in time. I also did
Speaker 2: not know the difference between going Tanamo Bay and Abu Grabe,
Speaker 2: So I am.
Speaker 3: Really happy that we get to.
Speaker 1: Do this episode again shining for that Pulitzer Prize. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: sometimes listen. So you know I have a New York
Speaker 1: Times subscription now and the New Yorker I am you know, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't. I there's got to be a
Speaker 1: website where it tells you everything you're subscribing to, right,
Speaker 1: I need help.
Speaker 3: It's like, I don't need. I don't need.
Speaker 1: It's too many subscriptions. Okay, So what was tough about
Speaker 1: this was for pages. It was like opinion pieces.
Speaker 2: It was really hard in the beginning of my research
Speaker 2: to find facts and like what really happened because everyone
Speaker 2: just had so many opinions and editorials. So it was
Speaker 2: like dozens of editorials before I was even able to
Speaker 2: find some stuff. There's like a Susan Sontad piece and
Speaker 2: I was like, I don't need this, even though she's
Speaker 2: cool or whatever. And then I went to YouTube to say,
Speaker 2: maybe i'll you know, maybe there'll be something on YouTube.
Speaker 2: And the first thing that was there was an Abu
Speaker 2: Grab the musical, and then it was Fox News. So
Speaker 2: I was like, what the fuck am I gonna do? Like,
Speaker 2: where am I going to find stuff?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: So that's like that, that's what was hard. It was
Speaker 1: like the lasting ghosts, and.
Speaker 2: Then it was like people that were guilty confessing and
Speaker 2: I'm like, what the fuck? So yeah, so the New
Speaker 2: Yorker is where it really happened, and I did feel
Speaker 2: like Elwood's okay, So now we will begin. Abu Gray
Speaker 2: Prison was a US Army detention center for captured Iraqis
Speaker 2: from two thousand and three to two thousand and six.
Speaker 2: It was twenty miles west of Baghdad, and it's one
Speaker 2: of the world's most notorious prisons, and it was filled
Speaker 2: with torture, weekly executions, and vile living conditions. And so
Speaker 2: there's also like no accurate count that's possible to say
Speaker 2: how many people were there, but The New Yorker said
Speaker 2: fifty thousand men and women were jailed there at one time,
Speaker 2: But then CNN wrote that it's at the height there
Speaker 2: was only thirty eight hundred detainees, so.
Speaker 1: Maybe it was like maybe that was like the maximum
Speaker 1: people they had at one time, but fifty thousand rotated
Speaker 1: through there.
Speaker 2: Listen, this is why we're a duo, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean, This is why we're a duo. So eventually,
Speaker 2: after all of this eleven soldiers were convicted of crimes
Speaker 2: relating to Abu Grab and seven of them were from Maryland,
Speaker 2: so they were all good buds. They were all from
Speaker 2: the three hundred and seventy second Military Police Company. A
Speaker 2: number of other service people were not charged, but they
Speaker 2: did get in trouble whatever that means, like, I don't
Speaker 2: know if they just got spanked or something by the.
Speaker 3: Military, but pretty chill.
Speaker 2: So the regime collapsed in Iraq April two thousand and
Speaker 2: three ish, and so then there's this huge prison and
Speaker 2: it was deserted and stripped of everything that could be removed,
Speaker 2: and then coalition authorities had the floors tiled, the cells
Speaker 2: cleaned and repaired and added toilet showers, a new medical center,
Speaker 2: and just really HGTV the shit out of this US
Speaker 2: military prison.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: They took it from gross prison to sexy prison, and
Speaker 2: by the fall it was filled with several thousand people,
Speaker 2: and a lot of them were just civilians that were
Speaker 2: randomly picked up by military sweeps. And these several thousand
Speaker 2: people were put into three loose categories. So there's common criminals,
Speaker 2: then there's security detainees, and these are people that are
Speaker 2: suspected of crimes against the coalition and a small number
Speaker 2: of suspected quote unquote high value leaders of the insurgency
Speaker 2: against coalition forces.
Speaker 1: So you know who was in charge? How did this
Speaker 1: all get going?
Speaker 2: So June two thousand and three, Janie Karpinski, she was
Speaker 2: an Army Reserve bridgidier.
Speaker 3: This is what I mean. These words are out of control.
Speaker 2: She was a general and she was named the commander
Speaker 2: of the eight hundredth Military Police Bridge and put in
Speaker 2: charge of military prisons in Iraq. And she was the
Speaker 2: only female commander in the war zone. But she was
Speaker 2: like super experienced in tons of other things, but had
Speaker 2: never run a prison system before. So it's like she
Speaker 2: had all these credits but for other shits. So the
Speaker 2: fact that she was put in charge of this makes
Speaker 2: no fucking sense. July two thousand and three, Amnesty International
Speaker 2: criticized the US military of subjecting Iraqi prisoners to cruel, inhumane,
Speaker 2: and degrading conditions. So this chick, Janis she wanted to
Speaker 2: be a soldier since she was five and is like
Speaker 2: a business consultant in civilian life. So she is a
Speaker 2: deranged sociopath. Okay, So she was in operations and intelligence
Speaker 2: officer and served in Special Forces, and now she's in
Speaker 2: charge of three large jails, eight battalions and thirty four
Speaker 2: hundred Army reservists who like her.
Speaker 3: And they also had no training in handling prisoners.
Speaker 1: So it was just a who's who of clueless people
Speaker 1: in this person and the group that they had brought
Speaker 1: in arrived Iraq to do routine traffic and police duties
Speaker 1: in the spring, and then by October they were ordered
Speaker 1: to prison guard duty. So these are people that were
Speaker 1: just going to do chill stuff and they're yeah, it's
Speaker 1: just no one was really prepped for what this job was.
Speaker 1: And she was quoted once in the Saint Petersburg Times
Speaker 1: what is that? But she said, Oh, the Iraqi inmates
Speaker 1: love it here, and the conditions are better than their
Speaker 1: own lives, and actually I'm quite concerned they would never
Speaker 1: want to leave. See sociopath. This is a this is
Speaker 1: not a normal moment. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Ugh, I just oh, yeah, the rakis love it here.
Speaker 3: I just loving it. Yeah, it's like a resort.
Speaker 2: One report indicated that she would sign orders calling for
Speaker 2: changes to ship, but then never followed up and no
Speaker 2: one carried out orders, and there were just tons of
Speaker 2: security issues, escapees, incidents that led to killings and wounding
Speaker 2: of inmates.
Speaker 3: It was just kind of a free for all.
Speaker 2: And if she was there, she could have maybe ensued
Speaker 2: day to day procedures were being followed and that could
Speaker 2: have led to like many less cases of abuse. But
Speaker 2: she did not do that, and a month after that
Speaker 2: interview when she said that wild thing about them loving
Speaker 2: the jail, she was formally admonished, suspended, and there was
Speaker 2: a giant investigation into the Army's prison system that was
Speaker 2: authorized by Lieutenant General Ricardo S. Sanchez, who was a
Speaker 2: senior commander in Iraq. Another character in this is Major
Speaker 2: General Jeffrey D.
Speaker 3: Miller.
Speaker 1: I know it's Jeffrey, but if you're gonna spell it
Speaker 1: like that, I'm gonna call you Jeoffrey.
Speaker 2: And he arrives my birthday August thirty first, two thousand
Speaker 2: and three, and until September ninth, he leads a survey
Speaker 2: team on intelligence, interrogation and detention operations in Iraq. So
Speaker 2: immediately following that, military intelligence officers ask for control of
Speaker 2: Tiers one A and one B for interrogation of high
Speaker 2: value detainees.
Speaker 1: Now, I don't know what these tiers.
Speaker 2: Mean, but this guy comes and gives a presentation and
Speaker 2: then they asked to control these tiers. Okay, m hm,
Speaker 2: well maybe we'll learn about the tears later, we will, okay.
Speaker 2: So then there's this fifty three page report that's obtained
Speaker 2: by the New Yorker and it was not meant for
Speaker 2: public release.
Speaker 1: So that's like a huge thing.
Speaker 2: And that was completed February two thousand and four, and
Speaker 2: the conclusions of this report were obviously not good, or
Speaker 2: we would not know about this case and all those photos.
Speaker 2: So specifically, between October and December two thousand and three,
Speaker 2: there was a bunch of instances of sadistic, blatant and
Speaker 2: wanton criminal abuses at Abu Grabe. And those are all
Speaker 2: words that I use normally in my life.
Speaker 1: Because I okay, so the word is wanton because when
Speaker 1: you say wanton, it sounds like a Chinese soup. I know,
Speaker 1: now I want Chinese food.
Speaker 2: So far, and then all these fucked up things were
Speaker 2: done by the soldiers of that three hundred and seventy
Speaker 2: second Military Police Company that I had mentioned before, and
Speaker 2: by members of the American intelligence community, and these people
Speaker 2: reported to the Kurpinski brigade headquarters to that woman. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and there was a new policy issued in October that
Speaker 2: was directly from this Miller visit. So then Major General
Speaker 2: Donald J. Rider, he's an Army Provost Marshall. He assesses
Speaker 2: detention and corrections operations in Iraq. So all these other
Speaker 2: battalions take over. There's just a lot of like power exchanging,
Speaker 2: and no one actually knows what's going on, and everyone's
Speaker 2: just fighting over a control over these tiers, Tiers one
Speaker 2: A and one B, and everyone wants.
Speaker 1: At it, okay, because these probably have the guys that
Speaker 1: are like the most involved and like probably the most
Speaker 1: likely to have like high level information and stuff. And
Speaker 1: that's the thing.
Speaker 2: So these military guys are really just playing role playing games,
Speaker 2: like Jared, does you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: And it's like, why it would just.
Speaker 2: Be more fun if they found dungeons and dragons instead
Speaker 2: of the military.
Speaker 3: It would have just been better for society.
Speaker 2: I just hate that these people's like fun in games
Speaker 2: is true murder and torture.
Speaker 1: I just I don't understand it.
Speaker 2: But so some of the things that were found that
Speaker 2: was happening with all of this was they were breaking
Speaker 2: chemical lights and pouring phosphoric liquids on detainees. They were
Speaker 2: pouring cold water on naked detainees. They were taking away
Speaker 2: their mattresses, sheets, clothing, beating people with broom handles and chairs,
Speaker 2: threatening rape, letting a loose police guard, stitch up an
Speaker 2: injured person who was slammed against a wall, sodomizing people
Speaker 2: with chemical lights and broomstick, using military working dogs as
Speaker 2: psychological torture, like the threat and fear of the dogs
Speaker 2: was like really fucking people up. Also releasing the dogs
Speaker 2: into rooms of people, So that's super bad, like turning
Speaker 2: dogs against prisoners of war. And a retired major who's
Speaker 2: the commandment commandant? So this retired is that what it is?
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ? Okay, So a retired major who is the commandant?
Speaker 2: They're retired. Maybe I shouldn't read The New Yorker anymore,
Speaker 2: Like I don't know if I can handle these words.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I have to cancel them. Where
Speaker 2: the fuck's my tope bag? Okay, a retired major. Basically
Speaker 2: he's the commandant of the Army's Military Police School, and
Speaker 2: during his twenty eight year career, he said that this
Speaker 2: is so fucked up and this would never be tolerated.
Speaker 2: So this is a guy who's been working in like
Speaker 2: the army military for twenty eight years. He's seen some
Speaker 2: bad stuff, and for him to say like, oh, I've
Speaker 2: never seen anything.
Speaker 3: Like this, that's not really good.
Speaker 2: And then obviously, you know, one of the famous photos
Speaker 2: we all probably know is the hooded photos, and it's
Speaker 2: a man on a box and if he fell off
Speaker 2: the box, he was told he would be electrocuted.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Also, Abu Grab was filled beyond capacity and the guard
Speaker 2: force was like super undermanned and really short of resources.
Speaker 2: There was a large discrepancy between the actual number of
Speaker 2: prisoners and the number of like officially recorded people, and
Speaker 2: because of this, there was lack of proper screening. So
Speaker 2: a bunch of innocent Iraqis were just chilling in there
Speaker 2: and no one was like organizing people in any good way.
Speaker 2: So this big report, it was called the Tabuga Report,
Speaker 2: and it was for the name of the hotshot military guy,
Speaker 2: and he said that Janis was just never around these
Speaker 2: prisons that she was supposed to be running at all,
Speaker 2: and that kind of led to a lot of the chaos.
Speaker 2: But then he also called her emotional and now I'm like,
Speaker 2: go fuck yourself, how dare you? But he was just
Speaker 2: really annoyed with her that she would not admit to
Speaker 2: the lack of leadership and that that led to a
Speaker 2: lot of these problems. So she was annoying, but you know,
Speaker 2: don't call her emotional. There was a ton of evidence
Speaker 2: to support all of these allegations, and obviously, hello, there
Speaker 2: was photographic evidence. You can't really escape that a photograph
Speaker 2: what is a thousand words. So a lot of other
Speaker 2: photos got major attention. They were like a gi taunting
Speaker 2: naked Iraqi prisoners who were forced into humiliating poses. There's
Speaker 2: the one of a private with a cigarette hanging from
Speaker 2: her mouth doing a thumbs up while pointing to the
Speaker 2: naked genitals of a detainee who's forced to masturbate with
Speaker 2: a sam bag over his head.
Speaker 1: There's one so there's someone with.
Speaker 2: A bulcut like holding a leash, and then there's a
Speaker 2: naked detainee on the ground like being leashed. And the
Speaker 2: photos are really disturbing to look at. They do make
Speaker 2: me really uncomfortable and upset because it's just people abusing
Speaker 2: power authority. It's like the Stanford Experiment stuff where it's
Speaker 2: like a true or Lord of the Flies, when like
Speaker 2: disgusting bad behavior comes out of humans and it's just really,
Speaker 2: I don't know, I've really had some emotions looking at
Speaker 2: these photos.
Speaker 1: I feel like I remember, yeah, I thought I remember
Speaker 1: looking seeing one where they were forced to do like
Speaker 1: a pyramid naked or something. Yeah.
Speaker 2: The pyramid one we will is definitely oh and you're
Speaker 2: gonna get to it, okay. Yeah, that one is strange
Speaker 2: because it's also like the glee and uncare, like these
Speaker 2: soldiers are treating these people like not human beings at all.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like it it makes you feel like they're children.
Speaker 1: Like when you see a pyramid, You're like, oh, this
Speaker 1: will be funny. Let's have them do a pyramid, like
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's they are, That's the thing.
Speaker 2: A bunch of them are what eighteen to twenty two
Speaker 2: year olds, right like the military. Yeah, and the person
Speaker 2: that was holding the leash is an Army PFC Lyndy R.
Speaker 2: England and she was eventually charged with thirteen counts of
Speaker 2: misconduct in the case, but she said that she was
Speaker 2: told to take pictures by her superior so the photos
Speaker 2: could be used to frighten and demoralize other prisoners.
Speaker 1: So I don't know.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's the whole thing with military and cops stuff,
Speaker 2: where it's like I gotta follow orders, so you know,
Speaker 2: it's real.
Speaker 1: That's why they don't want you going to school. They
Speaker 1: want you to fucking join in. Uh.
Speaker 2: There is one photo where two of the soldiers are
Speaker 2: arm in arm thumbs up, and behind them is the
Speaker 2: group of the seven naked iraqis forced into a pyramid,
Speaker 2: and that one was definitely very well known, and they
Speaker 2: would pose the naked men so it look like they
Speaker 2: were sucking each other's dicks.
Speaker 1: There's also they found.
Speaker 2: A room that was just splattered with blood, so then
Speaker 2: there was like a bloodied body wrapped in cellophane and
Speaker 2: packed in ice that was just like lying around that
Speaker 2: no one was taking care of post death in any way,
Speaker 2: just like a fucking dead body and ice. So the
Speaker 2: vibe seems like that was all routine and this wasn't
Speaker 2: just a one night thing for like a soldier's birthday
Speaker 2: party and they got drunk and put them all in
Speaker 2: a naked pyramid. You know, this was how they treated
Speaker 2: prisoners pretty often. And you know, other stuff went down,
Speaker 2: punching slapping, kicking, jumping on their naked feet. And it
Speaker 2: says a male MP guard was having sex with a
Speaker 2: female detainee.
Speaker 3: But that's rape.
Speaker 2: So it's weird that CNN would write sex Army police
Speaker 2: for raping prisoners.
Speaker 1: This one guy, yes, CNN, this one guy.
Speaker 2: Sergeant Frederick once punched a detainee in the chest so
Speaker 2: hard that the detainee almost went into cardiac arrest. And
Speaker 2: then in November there was some escapees and commotion around town.
Speaker 2: Two weeks after that, a man named Colonel Thomas and poppus.
Speaker 2: He then became like the commander of Abu Grabe and
Speaker 2: he made the military intelligence responsible for the military police
Speaker 2: units conducting detainee operations. And then November twenty fourth there's
Speaker 2: a ride and shooting of twelve detainees and there was
Speaker 2: three deaths and nine military police were also wounded.
Speaker 3: But you know you wouin Semmu lose him.
Speaker 2: So also in November a detainee dies during an interrogation,
Speaker 2: and then December there's another shooting.
Speaker 1: Like this is so much stuff.
Speaker 2: So in January two thousand and four, there launches in
Speaker 2: a giant army investigation into all the reports of abuse
Speaker 2: that are happening.
Speaker 1: And basically we find out.
Speaker 2: That a sergeant Joseph Darby, he found it a real struggle.
Speaker 3: It was scary for him. He didn't you know, he was.
Speaker 2: Really conflicted, but he did report the abuse, and he
Speaker 2: did it anonymously at first, and then it was all
Speaker 2: figured out, so there was a whistleblower and then there
Speaker 2: was like a giant, giant investigation that happened, and he
Speaker 2: found a cd ROM of Iraqi prisoners being abused. And
Speaker 2: I know that's a serious statement, but saying cd RAM,
Speaker 2: that's the first time I've said that in fifteen years.
Speaker 2: I miss the disc though. I like feeling like Sandra
Speaker 2: Bullock in the net.
Speaker 1: You know. I loved putting a little disk in the
Speaker 1: laptop and printing it out fast. I like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: making burning CDs.
Speaker 3: I liked that too. I still have all my CDs,
Speaker 3: but I have them.
Speaker 1: Of course you do. Now it's just chords everywhere. Mac
Speaker 1: keeps taking away holes constantly, like toggles all the time.
Speaker 1: It's just like dongle, doggles, dingles, dingles.
Speaker 2: Okay, so right away, Philibaum, this guy is suspended as commander,
Speaker 2: and like mentioned earlier, Karpinski is given a memorandum of
Speaker 2: admonishment and some guy we haven't really talked about, but
Speaker 2: Captain Donald J. Reese is suspended and he was the
Speaker 2: commander of the three hundred and seventy second little group.
Speaker 2: There was an Article thirty two hearing, whatever the fuck
Speaker 2: that is. No, it's a hearing to get evidence and
Speaker 2: witnesses to talk, but most of them invoke their Fifth
Speaker 2: Amendment rights. One of the mill Terry defense attorneys was like, hey,
Speaker 2: they were carrying out orders from their bosses. You really
Speaker 2: think a group of kids from rural Virginia decided to
Speaker 2: do this on their own?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, yes, I know, what are you at?
Speaker 3: Definitely see that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, hazing's a thing like people do wild stuff as teens.
Speaker 1: But you know, we obviously don't believe this, but this
Speaker 1: is a good legal trick of course, Like you would
Speaker 1: want this to be your lawyer. And the defense attorney
Speaker 1: for Frederick, Captain Robert Schuck, is like, okay, I mean
Speaker 1: the army is attempting to have six soldiers atoned for
Speaker 1: its sins. Like come on, bro, you think these fucking
Speaker 1: idiots were masterminds, but the photos just like you're bad people,
Speaker 1: You're smiling. You're not, you're smiling with your thumbs up,
Speaker 1: like there's I just can't imagine. I don't know any
Speaker 1: of these people, but I can't imagine this woman that's
Speaker 1: barely at the jail is like strip them naked, pile
Speaker 1: them up, take pics. Like I just don't see that happening.
Speaker 1: I could see them her saying, just get the information,
Speaker 1: do whatever you have to do. Yeah, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And so this Frederick guy, and you know, he seemed
Speaker 2: to cause a lot of issues inside, but he said
Speaker 2: that the military intelligence teams, which included CIA officers and
Speaker 2: linguists and interrogation specialists from private defense contractors, were the
Speaker 2: dominant force inside ABU GRAB. So he's passing the buck
Speaker 2: onto these secret private defense contractors, which I kind of
Speaker 2: believe too. I'm sure they were involved. I don't understand
Speaker 2: how that's even legal. I don't understand how you have
Speaker 2: private defense companies. It is so strange to me. So
Speaker 2: now this is where we join the SV world finally, Okay,
Speaker 2: with the private defense contractors. So Frederick said that military
Speaker 2: intelligence officers or they're called m's were encouraging them and
Speaker 2: saying great job. So then there's a man named Eric Fair.
Speaker 2: Are we all paying attention? Please do not leave a
Speaker 2: bad review. I am trying my best. So a man
Speaker 2: named Eric Fair was an interrogator at Abu Grab and
Speaker 2: he wrote a memoir Consequence, and he said that he
Speaker 2: what he did as an interrogator at Abu Grab was torture.
Speaker 2: He straight up was like I was committing torture there.
Speaker 2: He said, there's no such thing as enhanced interrogation or
Speaker 2: torture light that it just means torture. He said he
Speaker 2: practiced techniques that were considered legal by the US government,
Speaker 2: but that it still really weighs on his conscience.
Speaker 1: Did I say conscience right? Mm hmm, okay, great.
Speaker 2: He said he used stress positions and sleep deprivation and
Speaker 2: stress positions are meant to exhaust someone, so like hold
Speaker 2: these books with your arms out to your sides and
Speaker 2: then you achieve.
Speaker 1: Like muscle failure. For these people, and they.
Speaker 2: Would handcuff them to sell walls in a position where
Speaker 2: their hands were placed down between their legs and then
Speaker 2: their hands were handcuffed behind back, behind them, so like
Speaker 2: you can you can't sit down or rest. So there
Speaker 2: was a lot of forced standing, no sleep, arrest and that's.
Speaker 1: Like to shock the system.
Speaker 2: And this guy he admits to not only hurting people physically,
Speaker 2: but that they destroyed people emotionally. So Eric Fair was
Speaker 2: someone that served in the military and was a police
Speaker 2: officer and then was employed by a private company under
Speaker 2: contract to the military, so he kind of has perspectives
Speaker 2: of all the different units going into play, and he
Speaker 2: confessed to all of this stuff. Another connection to the
Speaker 2: SVU episode is that a man died in their custody
Speaker 2: in November two thousand and three from stressing him out
Speaker 2: so bad under questioning, and this is, yeah, this is
Speaker 2: the person. They put his body in a body bag,
Speaker 2: packed him in ice for like twenty four hours in
Speaker 2: the shower. But it's like, they don't have respect for
Speaker 2: these people alive, so why would they have respect for
Speaker 2: these people while they're dead. The next day, medics came
Speaker 2: and put his body on a stretcher, placed a fake
Speaker 2: IV in his arm, and took him away. This dead
Speaker 2: man was never entered into the prison's innate control system,
Speaker 2: so it could have been an innocent person. So, like
Speaker 2: I mentioned in January, there was that complaint that happened,
Speaker 2: and then the report and investigation that happened was the
Speaker 2: Major General Antonio M. Taguba and this formal investigation that
Speaker 2: was done on March third, two thousand and four, and
Speaker 2: then March twentieth, charges were filed against six soldiers and
Speaker 2: we talked about that hearing earlier with Franklin and the crew.
Speaker 3: But so there were six soldiers there and.
Speaker 2: General Taguba, even though he was pissed at the people
Speaker 2: acting out orders, he did have the harshest words to
Speaker 2: the MII officers and private contractors.
Speaker 3: He was like, fuck all.
Speaker 2: Of you, and you should have all been reprimanded and
Speaker 2: relieved of duties and go fuck yourself for ordering military
Speaker 2: policemen who were not trained in interrogation techniques to facilitate
Speaker 2: interrogations by setting up conditions that were not authorized and
Speaker 2: not in accordance with army regulations.
Speaker 3: Bitch.
Speaker 2: So the story breaks on CBS's sixty Minutes too and
Speaker 2: shows photos of the prisoner abuse at Abu Gray Prison.
Speaker 1: And that's like that was the biggest thing.
Speaker 2: So after the story broke on CBS, the Pentagon announced
Speaker 2: some guy, Major General Jeoffrey Miller, will be the new
Speaker 2: head of the Iraqi prison system, and it's like just.
Speaker 1: Don't have a prison there. It doesn't see, it doesn't
Speaker 1: matter who's in charge. It seems like you're all fucking
Speaker 1: failing and pieces of shit.
Speaker 2: And he was the commander at Guantanamo's Bay Detention Center, which,
Speaker 2: like I said earlier, are two different things.
Speaker 3: Who knew I think a lot of people.
Speaker 2: So then again international attention and anger, and President Bush
Speaker 2: was like, oh, come on, bro, these are the actions
Speaker 2: of a few. They don't reflect all of us or
Speaker 2: the conduct of the military as a whole. And it's
Speaker 2: like this excuses always used, and it is never trap.
Speaker 2: It's never true. But you know, it's like high levels
Speaker 2: of leadership did nothing and they all failed, and then
Speaker 2: all the like poor lower class people got in trouble.
Speaker 2: So Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, he testified at a congressional hearing
Speaker 2: on prison abuse in May of two thousand and four,
Speaker 2: and then a seventh soldier was charged. So he said
Speaker 2: that the Pentagon said that everything was complying with the
Speaker 2: Geneva Conventions. So that's that Abu Grabe was a place
Speaker 2: where the Geneva Conventions were routinely violated, though, and the
Speaker 2: day to day management of the prisoners were relinquished to
Speaker 2: Army military intelligence units and civilian contract employees, and that
Speaker 2: interrogating prisoners and getting intelligence was the top priority of
Speaker 2: that place, and that included intimidation and torture. So I
Speaker 2: don't know if he's committing perjury or if they're all lying,
Speaker 2: or what happens.
Speaker 1: It's just it's too much.
Speaker 2: So Rumsfeld, after this, he goes and visits the jail,
Speaker 2: and then he goes, oh, yeah, these people will be punished,
Speaker 2: and all these soldiers will get punished, So Grain or
Speaker 2: Frederick Davis, they all get in trouble. Specialist Jeremy C.
Speaker 2: Sivets is sentenced to one year in prison for his
Speaker 2: role in abusing Iraqis. At the prison, he pled guilty
Speaker 2: and agreed to testify against six other accused Americans. This guy,
Speaker 2: Willie Jay Rowell, he served for thirty six years as
Speaker 2: a CID agent, said that using force or humiliation is
Speaker 2: actually counterintuitive, okay, Stabler, because these people will tell you
Speaker 2: what you want to hear, truth or no truth. So
Speaker 2: if you're beating the shit out of someone, you're not
Speaker 2: getting righteous information. You know, they're just trying to stop
Speaker 2: the torture, So it doesn't actually work.
Speaker 3: So what the fuck.
Speaker 2: It also is fucked because they had civilians in there
Speaker 2: forever without charges being brought to them, so they couldn't
Speaker 2: appeal or do anything because they were in there for nothing,
Speaker 2: and which is very very American and obviously our current
Speaker 2: bail system what's happening in Rikers and everything is very
Speaker 2: much that. So it's innocent people should not be sitting
Speaker 2: in jail. Sorry, is that controversial?
Speaker 1: No? No great, no cost sign cost sign. I'm almost done, okay.
Speaker 2: So May twenty first, two thousand and four, is when
Speaker 2: the US releases four hundred and fifty four detainees from
Speaker 2: Abu Gray Prison. On the twenty fourth, another twenty fourth
Speaker 2: prisoners leave, and I wonder if everyone around the office
Speaker 2: was like, oh my god, twenty four people on the
Speaker 2: twenty fourth, or if they didn't pay attention. But I'm
Speaker 2: sure someone had to mention it in the office, right, Okay,
Speaker 2: so that more people plead guilty, you know, Rick pleads
Speaker 2: guilty to charges of abuse. An Army g guy named
Speaker 2: Arman J. Cruz Junior pleads guilty. Just everyone from this
Speaker 2: three hundred and seventy second group, they all did stuff,
Speaker 2: and they all they all pled guilty, and I can't
Speaker 2: name every soldier that got in trouble. You can tell
Speaker 2: that this case has broken me, but just know there's
Speaker 2: a lot of them.
Speaker 1: So Rumsfeld, our guy Rumsfeld.
Speaker 2: He went on Larry King in February two thousand and five,
Speaker 2: and he says he would have offered to resign, but
Speaker 2: Bush asked him to stay best friends forever.
Speaker 1: Rumsfeld and Bush definitely have a little necklace that's a
Speaker 1: heart broken in half, and they each wear one.
Speaker 2: Taguba, who like broke this story is not regarded as
Speaker 2: a hero in some circles in the Pentagon, but go
Speaker 2: fuck them. And they don't like when their shit goes public.
Speaker 2: But you did something bad and we deserve to fucking
Speaker 2: know that. Why won't this story end? So September one,
Speaker 2: two thousand and six, control of Abu Grabe is handed
Speaker 2: over to the Iraqis, and then two thousand and eight,
Speaker 2: a bunch of former detainees file a lawsuit against CACI
Speaker 2: Premier Technology, the contractor that's supplied the army with interrogators.
Speaker 2: Two thousand and nine, it reopens after major renovations, which
Speaker 2: include a new gym and barber shop and so, but
Speaker 2: that just might be pr for the jail. It's now
Speaker 2: a Bagdad Central Prison and I don't know if yeah,
Speaker 2: but there's a gym. And then in twenty fourteen the
Speaker 2: prison is closed for security reasons and I'm done.
Speaker 3: Not another word. Let's go to the interview.
Speaker 1: Thank you for doing all that work, Lisa. It was
Speaker 1: worth it. And I knew a little bit about Abu Grabe.
Speaker 1: Now I know a lot and our guest is worth
Speaker 1: the wait, So stick around. Okay, guys, our guest today
Speaker 1: has perfected the role of handsome asshole. You might recognize
Speaker 1: him from TV shows like Wings and Chicago med or
Speaker 1: as Jack Torrens from the TV mini series of Stephen
Speaker 1: King's The Shining, but you know him today as the
Speaker 1: smarmi attorney named Matthew Brayden. Guys, please check out our
Speaker 1: I think life changing chat with Stephen Weber. Stephen Webber
Speaker 1: so excited. You're a GAT. You're a true GAT. We
Speaker 1: were very mind when you agree. Yes, we were literally
Speaker 1: like our thumbs were cramping scrolling your IMDb.
Speaker 3: You have been working and working.
Speaker 1: You are a worker.
Speaker 4: I'm at the get portion of my career, which is
Speaker 4: as your as the sun is setting. Then you get mercy. Mercy,
Speaker 4: little gigs and it's really sweet because if I was
Speaker 4: at the height, I would not be sitting here with you.
Speaker 4: When you are at your height, because you're on the
Speaker 4: way up, you will not be sitting here with the
Speaker 4: likes of me and.
Speaker 1: Death lesson number one ladies. So you're saying back in
Speaker 1: your Wings days, you wouldn't even given us the time
Speaker 1: of day, like this would be.
Speaker 4: No Wings days. I wouldn't have gone online. Wait a second,
Speaker 4: there was no one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was no online. And we're assuming though you
Speaker 1: did not audition for this, this was an offer only
Speaker 1: correct for you. Yeah here, Yeah, that's for you.
Speaker 4: Oh that's right, No, that's right, that's right. I forgot.
Speaker 4: In fact, I went back and I and I watched
Speaker 4: that episode. Okay, yeah, well.
Speaker 2: I watched all of yours because I mean, this one's
Speaker 2: very fun but then ludicrous and method man, that's pretty cool.
Speaker 4: Yeah, how about that? And of course at the time,
Speaker 4: I was like, who are these guys? Who are they?
Speaker 4: Who are they?
Speaker 2: You know, no idea, but this was exciting. So they
Speaker 2: called you and they're like, we need you to at
Speaker 2: that point.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I forget what year was, but I think it
Speaker 4: was post Wings, So I had a kind of a
Speaker 4: name that that was known, you know, a minor celebrity,
Speaker 4: and so yeah, I mean I was a guest star
Speaker 4: that they offered it to, and then I did it
Speaker 4: and again rewatching it, I was kind of surprised at
Speaker 4: how good I was, and because I don't like watching myself,
Speaker 4: I was like, oh, okay, I kind of I did
Speaker 4: it right, and everybody was good. I mean, it was
Speaker 4: really well. It was an interesting episode, especially given that
Speaker 4: the era and their their attempt to kind of go
Speaker 4: on a fairly go deep on a fairly complex issue.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, for sure, I mean a lot like you know,
Speaker 1: our podcast investigates like the true crimes that things are
Speaker 1: based up, but when they tackle like a major political thing,
Speaker 1: it does feel like more ambitious. You know.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, we research the true crimes, and I think
Speaker 2: researching Abu Gray really took a lot out of me.
Speaker 2: I was like, that was so much reading. I haven't
Speaker 2: read that much him forever.
Speaker 1: But you you're like born and raised New York, right,
Speaker 1: So were you like, oh, I'm finally doing law and Order.
Speaker 1: Was it kind of like a box you had to
Speaker 1: check off or what?
Speaker 4: Well? Yeah, look, the thing about being a New York
Speaker 4: actors that when there's you know, you have Broadway and
Speaker 4: you have local productions, and you have the great you
Speaker 4: know in the history especially of television, and so to
Speaker 4: work in your hometown is really exciting and you know,
Speaker 4: you feel like you're part of a community or the
Speaker 4: canon of New York based productions. And yeah, and being
Speaker 4: on Law and Order was a great box to check
Speaker 4: off because there are so many great New York actors
Speaker 4: that have worked on that show. It's like a it's
Speaker 4: a it's the well from which that show draws its
Speaker 4: its talent, you know, it's the pool. And just to
Speaker 4: be part of that was great.
Speaker 1: You shot on the courtroom steps.
Speaker 2: How is it like shooting amongst you know, the people
Speaker 2: of New York, the.
Speaker 4: People of New York.
Speaker 1: Uh they animals?
Speaker 4: No, no, no, they weren't. No. I think I think
Speaker 4: it's as enjoyable to watch, for the most part, to
Speaker 4: watch productions being filmed on the streets of New York
Speaker 4: as it just to film them. And in a way, uh,
Speaker 4: I feel like the New Yorkers are allowing you to
Speaker 4: do it. And so uh even in the moment they're there,
Speaker 4: they could heckle you, they could disrupt, they could kill you,
Speaker 4: but they choose, they choose not to do any of
Speaker 4: those things, and they kind of, you know, enjoy it.
Speaker 4: And it's part of what makes New York really fun.
Speaker 4: And it's it's part of what makes being a New
Speaker 4: Yorker kind of cool, that that it's a it's a
Speaker 4: place where people come to to shoot, you know, famous
Speaker 4: and iconic stuff. Yeah, those those court those court steps
Speaker 4: or courthouse steps are are iconic. You know, it's like
Speaker 4: the It's the equivalent of the zebra crossing in Abbey Road,
Speaker 4: you know, with the Beatles working out. You know, how
Speaker 4: many people, how many people have recreated various law and
Speaker 4: order descents and a sense of those steps.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I recently took a picture in Central Park where a
Speaker 2: lot of dead bodies are found, and I did lay
Speaker 2: down on the ground and then I was like, oh, fuck.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think we're done here today. Really great talking
Speaker 4: to you? That's dark?
Speaker 1: Can I ask because I looked up your Wikipedia and
Speaker 1: I know Wikipedia is not always accurate, but it says
Speaker 1: that your mom was a performer and your dad was
Speaker 1: a manager of comedians. So were you like, I'm just like,
Speaker 1: this is my only choice. I'm destined for this life,
Speaker 1: or like what you know, because you went to the
Speaker 1: high school performing arts, you must have known at a
Speaker 1: young age this is like what you were going to do.
Speaker 4: I guess I must have unconsciously, but it was never
Speaker 4: anything that was declared out loud. You know. Another torture
Speaker 4: metaphor analogy is that you know, I was on this
Speaker 4: stream and I just was carried along by these currents,
Speaker 4: and I just found myself doing this, gravitating towards it.
Speaker 4: It wasn't a show business house, despite those kind of
Speaker 4: bona fides. But yeah, my mom was a nightclub singer
Speaker 4: in the fifties when it was really super cool, and
Speaker 4: my dad was an agent and manager, and it was
Speaker 4: less cool in some ways. It was like a lower
Speaker 4: tier rat pack type of thing, not as low as
Speaker 4: Broadway Danny Rose, but not as elevated as the rat pack,
Speaker 4: somewhere somewhere in between. And it was very instructive and
Speaker 4: not unattractive. I mean, it was really kind of compelling,
Speaker 4: and so yeah, I guess I found myself in this area.
Speaker 4: But it wasn't you know, foretold or preordained or any
Speaker 4: of those things. Just kind of found myself doing it.
Speaker 2: Do you ever run into people you went to high
Speaker 2: school with on jobs?
Speaker 4: Well, once in a while. You know, the thing about
Speaker 4: going to acting school is that there's a huge attrition rate.
Speaker 4: Even people who are incredibly talented. After a while get
Speaker 4: buffeted and beaten up by the business or they just think,
Speaker 4: you know what, I don't want to hear no a
Speaker 4: billion times in a year. I really can't. I'm going
Speaker 4: to find something that it makes me happier. Really, But
Speaker 4: to answer your question, I do, and have over the years,
Speaker 4: cross paths with people who I went to high school with.
Speaker 4: You know who did I go to school with? I'm well,
Speaker 4: like Wesley Snipes actually went to Performing Arts and Ving
Speaker 4: Raims went to performing arts when he was just a
Speaker 4: skinny guy. Yeah, the behemoth he is now. And so
Speaker 4: once in a while I see those guys. And it
Speaker 4: was really in college. I went to a place called
Speaker 4: Sunny Purchase, Sunny being State University of New York, and
Speaker 4: like Stanley Tucci went there, and Edie Falco and a
Speaker 4: bunch of other great actors and directors. So once in
Speaker 4: a while, you know, once in a while we cross paths.
Speaker 4: It's pretty interesting.
Speaker 1: That's great. Well, let's like, let's get into this episode.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you just recently rewatched it, like tell us
Speaker 1: a little bit more like this was a cool character.
Speaker 1: You were this like kind of you know, handsome jerk
Speaker 1: that comes in like he knows everything right. And then
Speaker 1: you do three episodes and then I'm assuming your schedule
Speaker 1: just got too busy because you seem like someone they
Speaker 1: would have called back for like more episodes. And now
Speaker 1: you're back in the Dick Wolf universe on Chicago med.
Speaker 1: So you know, I'm from Skokie. I don't know if
Speaker 1: you ventured up north.
Speaker 4: Yeah, not yet, not yet.
Speaker 1: I haven't good beta in If you want some Faloffel.
Speaker 4: All right, I'm there, I'll go tonight. Well, yeah I did.
Speaker 4: I was on that show three times, that's right. I
Speaker 4: think it was an interesting character and a character that
Speaker 4: I've I've played a lot, you know, kind of the
Speaker 4: the the jerk, the you know, authoritarian douchebag, and I
Speaker 4: played him a lot. But as I say, when revisiting
Speaker 4: that particular episode, I was taken with kind of how
Speaker 4: slick and well written the character was, and also that
Speaker 4: I did a decent job, and as did everybody. You know,
Speaker 4: it's such a It's such a good kind of economic show.
Speaker 4: I mean, they know exactly what to do, how to
Speaker 4: do it, They hit all the right notes, and it's
Speaker 4: so such a compelling formula. I think I think they
Speaker 4: brought me back as many times as a character as
Speaker 4: a guest character gets brought back. I mean, I'm sure
Speaker 4: there are exceptions to that rule, but threes three is
Speaker 4: pretty good.
Speaker 1: I feel like you could come back anytime.
Speaker 4: Well, maybe it'd be great, be hilarious if I came
Speaker 4: back as that character, even though I'm in the Wolf universe. Now,
Speaker 4: what if I played that guy, you know, and still
Speaker 4: played the guy on on Chicago Med?
Speaker 1: Why not on Chicago Met? Are you a doctor?
Speaker 3: What are what is your part on Chicago Met?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Chicago Mad? Yeah, I'm a an ex naval surgeon who's
Speaker 4: now at this hospital, Gaffney Hospital. And he's a mess,
Speaker 4: this guy, and he's a total mess.
Speaker 1: Well, they've done Chicago PD crossovers, and I don't put
Speaker 1: it past them to have like one of their detectives,
Speaker 1: I don't know, get hurt in Chicago and have a
Speaker 1: crossover with Med. That would be fun.
Speaker 2: This might be too detailed of a question, since you
Speaker 2: filmed a while ago. Are they like, the suits look
Speaker 2: very expensive? Do you know if they are expensive?
Speaker 4: Well, look, I think the clothing budget for certain characters
Speaker 4: is pretty good. They this isn't a series that scrimps. Yeah,
Speaker 4: they they they pay everything they need, They pay top
Speaker 4: dollar for their clothing. They don't, they don't go on
Speaker 4: the cheap. I really can't remember.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of times we talked to female actors,
Speaker 1: They're like, oh, yes, it was this brand, it was
Speaker 1: this brand, like they remember their was better.
Speaker 4: But well, again, as a younger guy, I really didn't
Speaker 4: care about that stuff. And I should have because right
Speaker 4: now the fact is I'm on this show. All I
Speaker 4: wear are scrubs. Yeah, and now I'd love to wear
Speaker 4: some fancy, cool suit that I would try to buy
Speaker 4: at a discount or even steal. I stole a suit once.
Speaker 2: A yeah, well on America's Next Time Model, I learned
Speaker 2: you have to ask and then maybe if you could
Speaker 2: buy it and then off a set.
Speaker 1: But I have stolen shoes before.
Speaker 4: If if I guess I really did like something, they
Speaker 4: they would probably try to get a discount for me.
Speaker 4: But I don't. While while that's my ulterior motive, I
Speaker 4: don't come right out and say, hey, can I pay
Speaker 4: less for the suit? I say, I really like this suit.
Speaker 4: Is there a way for me to purchase it? And
Speaker 4: if they are, if they like me and I'm incredibly likable,
Speaker 4: they'll say, you know, we'll make a little deal. But once,
Speaker 4: I actually did a miniseries a long time ago where
Speaker 4: I played John F. Kennedy and I stole a suit.
Speaker 4: And the joke was on me because the suit I stole,
Speaker 4: which I thought looked so great, was cut to be
Speaker 4: like a suit from nineteen forty six. So while it
Speaker 4: had broad shoulders and really big lapels and it looked great,
Speaker 4: in the context of this mini series, I could wear
Speaker 4: it on the street because I'd look like something from
Speaker 4: Guys and Dolls.
Speaker 3: You know, Well, how was so in this episode?
Speaker 1: You represent Elizabeth McGovern's character, and she's an actress I've
Speaker 1: been watching my entire life as well.
Speaker 3: How was working with her?
Speaker 4: She was great? I mean she terrible, mean to everybody.
Speaker 4: She would kick the craft service people. She was fantastic.
Speaker 4: And the thing is that obviously she hadn't done Doubt
Speaker 4: n Abbey at this point, and so she was I
Speaker 4: think in a period where she was in a way
Speaker 4: coasting between gigs, which is what happens to actors of
Speaker 4: all stripes. You know, she'd done rag Time, and she'd had,
Speaker 4: you know, really cool success and was very well known,
Speaker 4: and you take a little path toward that takes you
Speaker 4: to Law and Order, that takes you to other TV shows,
Speaker 4: and you're you're you know what I mean, you're you know,
Speaker 4: you're not a kind of superstar trajectory, and then you
Speaker 4: you kind of level off and then you you meander
Speaker 4: and then it was interestingly enough, you know, twenty plus
Speaker 4: years later that she got on Dalton Abbey and really
Speaker 4: kind of hit this amazing note with that great show,
Speaker 4: playing that beautiful character. So you know, she's a wonderful,
Speaker 4: really interesting actor, really interesting portrayal. Right, you know, you
Speaker 4: don't you kind of don't see it coming. And then
Speaker 4: she defends herself in a way that you didn't that
Speaker 4: I didn't see coming either. It's really really fascinating.
Speaker 2: I also felt like you had a lot of chemistry
Speaker 2: with Diane Neal, who plays Casey Novak.
Speaker 3: The lawyer. That's why I thought they might keep you around.
Speaker 1: You guys had a it seems like you had es.
Speaker 4: Well That's interesting to say that because we stayed friendly
Speaker 4: years after that show. And I remember even during the shoot,
Speaker 4: we discovered that we had the same sense of humor.
Speaker 4: And she's really twisted and funny and yeah, you know,
Speaker 4: would probably lie down in Central Park where people were killed.
Speaker 1: You know, that type of thing she's been.
Speaker 4: Well, there you go, So then you know what I'm
Speaker 4: talking about. So we hit it off like crazy. Yeah,
Speaker 4: but who knows, you know, there's like I said, there
Speaker 4: are a lot of moving parts and uh, and I
Speaker 4: realized at the end of the day that the actors
Speaker 4: are most actors are kind of disposable, you know, We're
Speaker 4: just part of the machine. And I've learned after decades
Speaker 4: now that if a good job comes along, like the
Speaker 4: one I'm currently on, hop on. You know, it's like
Speaker 4: the carnival cruise. You hop on, you've done your uniform,
Speaker 4: you do your thing, and then say thank you, be grateful,
Speaker 4: and then get out trying not to be a jerk.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, what, like you've worked on so many sets?
Speaker 2: How is it like joining a show and then piecing
Speaker 2: out like is there.
Speaker 1: A rhythm to it? You know what I mean? When
Speaker 1: has you been a regular on so many where you're
Speaker 1: there for many like seasons, and then you're do some
Speaker 1: where you're just in and out.
Speaker 4: So right now I sort of have it down, and
Speaker 4: it's it's never not exciting, it's never not a little
Speaker 4: anxiety producing. But I literally, just the other day I
Speaker 4: was working with a young actor who'd done some theater
Speaker 4: but had not done any TV, and he I saw it.
Speaker 4: I saw him kind of be lost for a second
Speaker 4: and not freaking out lost, but he didn't know why.
Speaker 4: For instance, people were putting down tape at your feet,
Speaker 4: and he didn't know what the protocol was in terms
Speaker 4: of rehearsing and then leaving the set and having people
Speaker 4: light it and focus and everything. And I was there
Speaker 4: to do four at least, I hope what I'd wished
Speaker 4: somebody had done for me, which was say, basically literally
Speaker 4: and figurably, put my hand on his shoulder and say, ah, okay,
Speaker 4: so are you okay? He said, well, no, not really,
Speaker 4: and then we had a kind of discussion. So it's
Speaker 4: always it's always a little daunting to come on to
Speaker 4: a new set and it's exciting, But like I say,
Speaker 4: now I'm fairly relaxed. I've gotten to the point where
Speaker 4: I usually know somebody on the set. If they're not
Speaker 4: in the cast, they're in the crew, somebody I've worked with,
Speaker 4: and that's always always good. But look, nobody's forced to
Speaker 4: work in this industry. It's always exciting. It's always a
Speaker 4: privilege to do it. Even if you have a small part,
Speaker 4: or even if you're at a hard job on the crew,
Speaker 4: you know, like shoveling crap, it's still kind of cool
Speaker 4: and exciting. And you never know, like in five years
Speaker 4: I'll be begging one of these people for a job,
Speaker 4: So it tays to be nice.
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, You're you're there. Doesn't look like
Speaker 1: there's that many gaps on your IMDb, like you have
Speaker 1: a You've done a lot, and I want, I do
Speaker 1: need to point out one of your favorite roles of
Speaker 1: mine is that my daughter loves the show Puppy Dog Pals,
Speaker 1: and I was really excited to see that you have
Speaker 1: voiced many, many characters on songs, the whole thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: oh my god. The theme song of that show gets
Speaker 1: so stuck in your head. It's like one of these
Speaker 1: little kid earwarm songs, but it's not connected to puppytrol
Speaker 1: or pop.
Speaker 3: No, it's not connected to pap Patrol.
Speaker 1: The puppy dog pills are their own thing. But you
Speaker 1: have done a bunch of voiceover, but you've also done
Speaker 1: like movies, TV, like you've been in a scripted podcast, theater, musicals,
Speaker 1: like do you have, like anything, what's on your career
Speaker 1: bucket lists that you like haven't done yet? Or are
Speaker 1: there like roles dream roles that you've always wanted to
Speaker 1: play either on the stage or the screen or Yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean a lot of the the roles and there
Speaker 4: weren't really that many that I had wanted to play.
Speaker 4: I've kind of aged out of and so I have
Speaker 4: and and what I really would like to do, I
Speaker 4: think is do some more theater in New York or
Speaker 4: Chicago for that matter, and and find a kind of
Speaker 4: I guess critical acceptance. Uh, and that that has been
Speaker 4: a little elusive.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 4: You know, I'm I'm I must be doing something right
Speaker 4: because I'm working a lot that said, I do aspire
Speaker 4: to do something that is really moving and and something
Speaker 4: that people connect with. In fact, it was my hope
Speaker 4: and still is my hope that the character that I'm
Speaker 4: currently doing on Chicago Med kind of meets those requirements
Speaker 4: to a certain degree, because he's a guy that has PTSD,
Speaker 4: He's doesn't like himself. He's the type of guy that
Speaker 4: is broken, of which you know, there are many broken
Speaker 4: and fractured men and and so I find that interesting. So,
Speaker 4: you know, if there's a role out there that is
Speaker 4: that people connect with, that's something that I aspire to.
Speaker 4: I can't be more specific than that. That's you know,
Speaker 4: I'd love to play something in the Marvel universe, but
Speaker 4: what are they going to give me? You know, I'll
Speaker 4: be like a doctor stranger's accountant.
Speaker 1: There's plenty of sure.
Speaker 2: Funny moment, we were talking to Laura Bananti and we
Speaker 2: asked her about the role and she goes, listen, I've
Speaker 2: done it. And we were like, yeah, because she did,
Speaker 2: my fair lady, And she's like, I've just kind of
Speaker 2: done it. We don't know, I don't know what to
Speaker 2: tell you.
Speaker 1: So we did love that.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, I love the way you talk
Speaker 2: about all this, but I want to know, have you
Speaker 2: ever been starstruck?
Speaker 1: Have you ever? Even though you know all these.
Speaker 4: Always always, and in fact, I always ruin any potential
Speaker 4: relationship I have with somebody who I'm a fan of
Speaker 4: you know, you think, yeah, I'm in the business too,
Speaker 4: and I can, I can. I should be able to
Speaker 4: hang out and chat with these people. It takes a
Speaker 4: great effort for me not to go, oh, you are great,
Speaker 4: and as soon as you do that, it's ruined.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Then then I'm then I'm all the way down here
Speaker 4: and they look at me like, Okay, it's one of
Speaker 4: those guys. I mean, I once, I did work one
Speaker 4: day on a film with Jeff Bridges, and I really
Speaker 4: worked hard to not be starstruck, and it paid off
Speaker 4: because he was really cool and he was everything that
Speaker 4: I wanted him to be. But I was like starstruck afterwards.
Speaker 4: Afterwards I probably had a chance to maybe reconnect with him,
Speaker 4: but I was too afraid. I was too afraid. But yeah,
Speaker 4: it happens all the time. Happens all the time. I mean,
Speaker 4: this is so amazing people. I'm more a fan than
Speaker 4: I am a peer. Yeah, how about you, I mean,
Speaker 4: don't don't you ever? I mean when you do meet
Speaker 4: other performers, that of course you do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I'm I humiliate myself in front of drag.
Speaker 2: Weeen introduced me to a drag queen and I went,
Speaker 2: I just like couldn't handle it. But anytime I, like
Speaker 2: have worked on a set, I always wait till I'm
Speaker 2: wrapped because I'm always just somewhere for a day, you know,
Speaker 2: And so I wait till the end and then I
Speaker 2: go like, it was really cool working with.
Speaker 1: You or something like that. But I try to Actually
Speaker 1: that's not true.
Speaker 2: I'm mine. Yeah, I'm always really excited. And I grew
Speaker 2: up going to the movies every week. We loved entertainment.
Speaker 2: Tonight in my house we watched the Awards shows, and
Speaker 2: so I don't actuade it, like I'm excited by all
Speaker 2: of it. And I like seeing people, even if it's
Speaker 2: just on the street or I get to meet them
Speaker 2: or with friends, like I always get really jazz.
Speaker 1: I like it.
Speaker 4: There's a party that I go to every year, and
Speaker 4: I don't go to a lot of parties. I have
Speaker 4: a very I've got a very small life, you know,
Speaker 4: And I really do and and but and I'll drop
Speaker 4: a name, you know. Sarah Silverman is a friend of mine,
Speaker 4: and she has this insane party and it's on the
Speaker 4: roof of a bill thing that she lives in. And
Speaker 4: at this party is every cool person in comedy in film,
Speaker 4: and there's some politicians there and it's not a high
Speaker 4: falutin party. It absolutely is a chill party where you know,
Speaker 4: people are eating edibles and they're having pizza and they're
Speaker 4: you know, and it's absolutely incredible. And it's the worst
Speaker 4: place for me to be because I'm invited, but I can't.
Speaker 4: I cannot comport myself. I cannot comport myself with any
Speaker 4: cool at all. It's and and so I'm paralyzed and
Speaker 4: I find.
Speaker 1: Myself because Sarah Silverman does that to me.
Speaker 2: I've been in small parties with her green room and
Speaker 2: I don't act normal, like I like, she liked one
Speaker 2: of my videos recently and I took a screenshot of it,
Speaker 2: like I try to around her boat.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's impossible. It's hard. And look, we're friends. We're
Speaker 4: friends that I can call her up or I'm friends,
Speaker 4: and I don't quite often because alluding to what I
Speaker 4: was saying before, I you know, I don't. I feel
Speaker 4: like it's it's wrong for me because I'm still too
Speaker 4: much of a fan. I still can't get over the
Speaker 4: fact that, huh, I'm sitting near to Sarah Silverman too.
Speaker 4: It's too weird. It's too weird.
Speaker 1: Well wait, I would like I would love to ask
Speaker 1: really quickly, what do you get recognized for the most?
Speaker 1: We love to ask people that. And you've done so much,
Speaker 1: so like do people know you from? I'm sure it
Speaker 1: depends on the age, like people know you from Wings
Speaker 1: or they know you from Thirteen Reasons or like what
Speaker 1: what do people what do you get the most?
Speaker 4: I would say, Uh, it's a toss up between Wings
Speaker 4: and then the Shining. I did a Shining miniseries in
Speaker 4: the nineties and uh, and then I get the occasional
Speaker 4: stray person that says, hey you, I loved you and
Speaker 4: Party Down. Party Down was a really funny show. Yes,
Speaker 4: or Thirteen Reasons Why I saw I I have crossed
Speaker 4: enough demographics that I get recognized for a lot of stuff.
Speaker 4: But I would say still mostly Wings. Oh and Psych.
Speaker 4: I did one episode of this series Psych one.
Speaker 1: People love Psych.
Speaker 4: I mean, okay, you know, I just one. I was
Speaker 4: probably twenty minutes of screen time, and I get I
Speaker 4: get deluged. Wow, relatively speaking, you know, it's not really
Speaker 4: day luge, Like one moment, I'll be talking to you
Speaker 4: in an hour from now. I'm dumpster diving so this
Speaker 4: is it's all. I have to be very philosophic about it.
Speaker 1: No, this was awesome. This was fun. As I think
Speaker 1: we this is great. But Steve, thank you even I
Speaker 1: just called you Steve like we're old friends. Steve, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for talking to us. This was amazing pleasure.
Speaker 1: That was great. He was great. Yeah, we're gonna possibly
Speaker 1: try to hang out with him in Chicago. We'll see. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: I definitely told Caro.
Speaker 2: I'm like, we are telling him where he's coming to
Speaker 2: Old Tom Pup with us. Whether he likes it or not.
Speaker 2: He is coming to our show. He's coming to West
Speaker 2: you know, the pub.
Speaker 1: Well, this episode comes out half the update people if.
Speaker 2: We'll have to tell you if we hung out or not.
Speaker 2: But I don't know. It was just fun and that's that.
Speaker 1: What are we to learn? What are we learning? What
Speaker 1: did we learn from today's episode? Lisa took us through
Speaker 1: the whole I mean I learned a lot because I
Speaker 1: didn't know a lot about Abu Grabe specifically. I mean
Speaker 1: I knew the general points, but Lisa took us through
Speaker 1: all of the finer points of the Abu Grabe travesty.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I guess it's like, uh, we've all we
Speaker 1: we learned over and over. We can't give people power
Speaker 1: over other people that way because they will abuse it,
Speaker 1: you know, the Milgram experiment. I was a sociology major,
Speaker 1: so I know all about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all about the Milgram you know. But I was
Speaker 2: so lucky because I got to like transfer, call it whatever.
Speaker 1: I didn't have to actually take statistics. I tried my
Speaker 1: way out of it, but.
Speaker 2: It's good because I was getting deep, like I couldn't
Speaker 2: pass it. It's like that's not what my brain is
Speaker 2: gonna do. I got like a C in statistics. It
Speaker 2: was just not for me, like I could not figure
Speaker 2: it out. It was like I but I had to
Speaker 2: take a math class to graduate. So that was my class,
Speaker 2: and my math major friend was like, just take it
Speaker 2: with me.
Speaker 3: I'll help you.
Speaker 1: And then of course it's like people that are good
Speaker 1: at math can't like that doesn't necessarily mean they're good
Speaker 1: at helping teach it to you.
Speaker 3: She was like, why don't you get this? And I'd
Speaker 3: be like, because I don't.
Speaker 1: She'd be like, oh, because for me, it's just obvious,
Speaker 1: and I'd be like, that's the problem. I probably shouldn't
Speaker 1: have taken a class with you. But yeah, fucking statistics.
Speaker 1: That was when I told you that. I told them
Speaker 1: I had a break down so I didn't have to
Speaker 1: do a test because I was like, this looks like
Speaker 1: I'm looking at Greek like I cannot understand. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: you love a chart.
Speaker 2: So I'm a little bit shocked. But yeah, statistics was
Speaker 2: so hard. And in Iowa was like at eight am,
Speaker 2: like there was just no way. I thank god, I
Speaker 2: dropped out. There was just no way I could do it.
Speaker 1: I love with all your transferring you somehow moved around
Speaker 1: that that's amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because I got out because I couldn't understand.
Speaker 2: I just couldn't understand it. And that's that. And like
Speaker 2: do I blame my brain, my effort or the teacher?
Speaker 2: I don't know, but either way, it was not penetrating
Speaker 2: through this membrane.
Speaker 1: Not not gonna do it. You know what, what's filled
Speaker 1: with my brain?
Speaker 2: You know, just like what outfits the Nanny War on
Speaker 2: the TV show, that's what my brain is filled with.
Speaker 3: Just with a bird print outfits. Yeah, why isn't there
Speaker 3: a fucking degree and what outfits the nanny War? Come on?
Speaker 2: Well, my favorite is when I started talking about in
Speaker 2: like moments from the Arthur TV show cartoon out one
Speaker 2: of our live shows, and no, even people that watched it,
Speaker 2: and you finally were like, no, not your.
Speaker 1: Psycho, Like, of course you watched it. Not everyone remembers,
Speaker 1: you know, you were like you never watched Arthur. I
Speaker 1: was like, yes, I did, but I'll remember it like
Speaker 1: scene for scene.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but TV free Week was a big it was
Speaker 2: a big episode. You probably just remember. Oh, you know
Speaker 2: what's also good about Halloween? They play all the Simpson's
Speaker 2: Treehouse of Horrors, oh and FXX all day and night, so.
Speaker 1: I remember that. I always remember Bart being like the
Speaker 1: Raven nevermore, never more, the Edgar Allen Poe.
Speaker 2: So we really but honestly, the Hippocratic oath means something
Speaker 2: the military is not good. Don't don't do that to people. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't know what else to say. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: and I just feel sad for Haruna boss. You know,
Speaker 2: that's that's the saddest of it all, to like escape
Speaker 2: and then be fucking face to face with your person.
Speaker 1: It's just scary. We've had a few of those, were
Speaker 1: people in SVU where they run into their old to
Speaker 1: like the very first episode of the show, isn't it
Speaker 1: the very first episode? The pilot of SVU is like
Speaker 1: like people running into their captors from another land.
Speaker 2: And I didn't listen to this and I probably won't,
Speaker 2: but thank god my friend Julia does. But I guess
Speaker 2: Rachel Maddow has a new podcast about American Nazis and
Speaker 2: like how we really protected a lot of the Nazis
Speaker 2: here throughout World War Two and that's like whoa really
Speaker 2: Yeah that they like were speech writers for a lot
Speaker 2: of the people in the government and infiltrated the government
Speaker 2: in really big ways.
Speaker 1: So there's a Rachel Maddow series on that.
Speaker 3: Damn, I gotta go check.
Speaker 1: But that kind of I started.
Speaker 2: Kind of not loving when when we were in Alabama,
Speaker 2: there's a stadium built up named after like a Nazi engineer,
Speaker 2: and it's like, yeah, can you just change it?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Really, I don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the thing.
Speaker 2: That's what's wild about all these people who want to
Speaker 2: have these Nazis on their show.
Speaker 3: Like in the future, I mean, or will be melted.
Speaker 2: But in the future it's not gonna be like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: he wasn't a Nazi, he just had Nazis on his
Speaker 2: radio show, like that's you're like, these people realize that
Speaker 2: they are gonna be remembered as Nazis or if they
Speaker 2: really just or they don't care and they are Nazis,
Speaker 2: or they don't get it, like I wonder.
Speaker 1: Yeah, huh, I don't know. My brain is mush today.
Speaker 1: I don't love COVID. I just love talking. I don't
Speaker 1: remember anything. We love doing this show and we hope
Speaker 1: you enjoyed this. Yeah, let's get into what would Sister
Speaker 1: Peg do for this? That's our weekly segment where we
Speaker 1: point you guys to an article, a book, an organization,
Speaker 1: something to give you more information about what we touched
Speaker 1: on in today's episode.
Speaker 3: And this week we wanted to point you to.
Speaker 1: A book called The Ballad of Abou Gray by Philip
Speaker 1: Gorovich and Errol Morris. And Errol Morris is like a
Speaker 1: famous documentarian who's done like The Thin Blue Line and
Speaker 1: a lot of other things. And the book is based
Speaker 1: on Errol Morris's interviews with the Americans who took the
Speaker 1: pictures and appeared in the pictures that were associated with
Speaker 1: the jail. And he's, you know, an Academy Award Woman
Speaker 1: winning filmmaker. So It's a lot of great information and
Speaker 1: you can check out the link to that in our
Speaker 1: show notes, and as always, it is saved in our
Speaker 1: Instagram stories in a highlight called WWSPD.
Speaker 2: I just saw a thing that says, every day I
Speaker 2: wake up feeling I failed sleep funny, I feel that.
Speaker 2: Next week we'll be doing Unorthodox Season nine, Episode thirteen.
Speaker 2: That's Peacock Hulu. We're obsessed with all of you. Come
Speaker 2: to our live shows. We love to meet you, and
Speaker 2: thank you so much for listening to That's Messed Up
Speaker 2: an SVU podcast.
Speaker 1: Thank you, guys, We love you. Until next week.
Speaker 2: Shall That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
Speaker 1: it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
Speaker 2: and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us
Speaker 2: personally at Kraklank and at glitter Cheese.
Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information. Thank you so much to our producer Kasey
Speaker 1: O'Brien and to our mixer John Bradley and our guest
Speaker 1: booker Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme
Speaker 1: song and Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thank you
Speaker 1: to our executive producers Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer,
Speaker 1: and everybody at Exactly Right Media Dun Dunn