WEBVTT - Case Study Pt 1; What Happened That Night 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.080 If you're going to place your left hand on the 0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:08.799 Bible and raise your right hand, and please repeat after 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:13.360 me and I do solemnly swear, then titled action find 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:16.160 the defendant guilty of the prime. It makes no sense, 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:20.200 it doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must aquit. 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.239 We all took the same of office. We're all bound 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:26.480 by that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution, 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:29.360 to bear true faith in allegiance to the same that 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:32.199 you faithfully discharge the duties of our office. Do you 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:35.480 solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:37.640 to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.640 nothing but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio, 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:58.720 this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. I don't 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:01.120 even want to you see me. You know, I feel 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:04.600 very guarded about the whole situation. First of all, you 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:07.600 have to remember, for so many years, like I couldn't 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:09.679 even talk about it and not even have my child, 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:12.560 you know, I had to just kind of keep everything 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:17.120 so internalized that to some degree it's really hard to 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:21.520 talk about it. She feels like I should because I 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:24.800 don't think people realize that this could happen to them, 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:26.800 you know, because if you talk to people, they're just 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:29.200 you know, like, oh, well they must have done something, 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:32.360 you know, because that doesn't happen to normal people, Like 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:36.600 that would never happen to me. Sometimes it doesn't even 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:38.880 feel like it happened to us. It's like in another 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:43.120 dimension or something like you can't even like retreat it 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:46.480 as an actual like thing. And it's like I don't 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:50.200 know about for her, but for me after that night, 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:57.240 my whole life before then, it feels like a dream, 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:01.240 Like I can't even access the person that I was, feelings, 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:04.560 I had, the thoughts I have about really anything. It's 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:09.880 like it walked behind like do you know what I mean. 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:12.200 I don't know how to describe it anymore than that, 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:17.160 you know, something horrible happening and I'm a phone call 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:23.760 for help and I didn't receive help. Hi everyone, my 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:26.240 name is Christina and I'm the lead producer on this 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:29.760 season of Sworn. This episode is the first in a 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:33.000 three part series, a sort of culminating case study for 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:36.800 the topics we've covered so far this season of Sworn. 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:40.359 We divided most of the episodes into topics instead of cases, 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:43.160 and looked at some of the problems and technicalities and 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:45.800 the legal system, many of which come into play in 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:49.120 this case. I really encourage you to take a listen 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:51.519 through the first part of this season to learn more 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:53.959 about the factors that we'll get into in these next 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:57.600 three episodes. The reason you're hearing my voice right now 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:00.080 instead of Phil's is that Phil is actually one of 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.280 our subjects in this case. In two thousand and nine, 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:05.760 Phil took on a case that would turn into one 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.520 of the biggest and most impactful in his career as 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:12.600 a defense attorney. When we were planning this season, talking 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:16.040 about problems with the justice system, he recommended we covered 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:18.880 this case right away. But since he was so close 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.840 to it being her defense attorney, we decided I would 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:23.760 take the lead and see what I could find out 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:27.720 about how the case impacted her, her family, and Phil himself. 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:31.359 So for the next three episodes, we're going to dive 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:34.240 into the details of that case, showing you what happened 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:38.280 from start to finish. The woman feel defended graciously agreed 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:40.640 to share her story with us, but for the sake 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:44.360 of her privacy and her children's privacy, we've changed her 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:49.560 voice and removed any identifying information that was her at 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.040 the beginning of the episode, and she talked about making 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.240 a call to get help the night of the incident. 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:58.960 She called one and things started to spiral from there. 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:01.760 I'd like to play you some of that nine one 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:05.840 one call now. We've edited it for clarity and privacy, 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:08.760 but I want to warn you it's pretty graphic. I'm 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:17.400 kind of hard to listen to. I haven't argue with 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:22.320 my husband. We were in my stepson's room and he 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:24.720 was listening to me. He was like, we're doing there, 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:27.559 and we were arguing, how are you coining his gun 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:30.480 at me? I tried to push it away from him, 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:33.280 and he said, you don't want to do that. And 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:37.000 the next thing I know, then did you hear it 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:42.560 go off? What did you hear the gun go off? Husband? 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:46.240 He's making wise, he's making noise. Yes, I think it's 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:50.119 been more off this flood everywhere. He was trained to 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:52.400 shoot me and I was fighting with the gun and 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:54.720 he said, you didn't want to do that, and then 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:56.560 the gun went off and the next thing I know, 0:04:56.760 --> 0:05:01.720 my husband has covered its blood. So hurry, Okay. Do 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:03.720 you think this was accidentally? Do you think he essentially 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:07.039 shot himself? I don't know. I note that she was 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:13.320 angry trump the door. Oh my kissing. We were both 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:16.359 drinking and we were talking, and I was talking on 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:18.880 the phone with my friend and he was in this 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:21.520 room and he was listening. Did YouTube puns it? And 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:26.880 I can't he planing from his head, which is sleep. Hurry, 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:28.600 and they're on the way. I just need to let 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:32.360 them know what's going on. Okay. The important thing is 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:35.599 just to keep perfect. It's everywhere. And my my eleven 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:37.680 year old daughter came to the door and she said, 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:42.159 as everything okay, and I closed the door unfured with sleep. Hurry, 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:47.560 okay's on the scene right now, okay, okay. Oh do 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:53.279 you hear the ambulance coming. The ambulance is coming, bye, 0:05:53.360 --> 0:06:00.360 good bye, to bye. Class. I sat down with Phil's 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:03.000 client and two of her children in Phil's office to 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:06.479 hear about this horrific experience. You might hear some people 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:10.600 walking around in the background. One last note on privacy. 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:13.599 We've beaped out her husband's name, the man who died. 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:18.240 Is there something from the night of the incident that 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:27.599 stands out the most? Yes, was I don't know the word. 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:32.560 I don't want to say. Calm but he was very agreeable. 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:37.800 He was very just whatever, just kind of agreeable. Like, 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:40.400 for instance, I had to go to the library to 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:42.720 get their summer reading because I hadn't finished getting them 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:45.479 their summer reading and school wasn't getting ready to start, 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:46.880 and I had to go to the grocery store. So 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:48.240 I had all this stuff I had to do, and 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:50.720 I had to go and pick up my paycheck, and 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:52.840 so I was leaving the house with the kids to 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:56.000 go pick up her and stuff. And I was sitting 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:59.440 on the living room floor with the Monopoly board game out, 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:03.640 and he was making the kids complain monopoly with them, 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:06.640 which wasn't unusual except for the fact that he was 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:11.840 adamant that night one of the kids won, or more 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:17.600 likely her husband let them win. Nobody ever beat Monopoly, 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:20.920 like it was like unheard of because he cheated terribly, 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:23.840 Like he just he didn't beat your dad of Monopoly, 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:27.880 like he'd find a way to win. And so I 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:30.360 was laughing, and it was like everything was kind of cool, 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:32.880 you know, But he was just there was like a 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:37.480 just like an okay, nous, like he wasn't agitated. There 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:40.960 was like nothing weird, which was almost a little bit abnormal, 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:42.960 you know, not that he was you know, it wasn't 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:47.520 a jerk or anything, but he just wasn't very chill. 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:52.200 And then um, he came to the back door and 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:55.280 he said, can you drive me to the quick trip? 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:58.000 And I said, well, I had a glass of wine, 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:02.120 I'm not going to drive, and he's said, oh, okay, 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:06.440 and he closed the door. So then I saw the 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:09.800 headlights moving out of the driveway, which made me mad 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:12.480 because I used to repeatedly hide car keys from him 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:14.440 so that he wouldn't drink and drive because he went 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:20.120 did tend to be somewhat self destructive. And then he 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:22.280 was in the room and the door was locked because 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.160 it locked him in there, and I knocked on the 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:26.840 door and I said, do you want to come and 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:29.000 sit with me because I'm gonna go to bed soon 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:32.320 and he was like yeah, I'll be right out, and 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:34.760 I was like okay, and I went and I checked 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:38.680 my email, knocked on the door again. He unlocked the 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:42.040 door and I walked in and he was listening to 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:46.520 music and I saw the gun on the on the 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:48.839 desk and it wasn't supposed to be in the house. 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:50.840 I was like, what is that doing in the house. 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:53.640 I think I even made a joke because the reason 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:55.760 I went over to the computer was that if he 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:58.040 didn't hurry up and come outside, that I was going 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:00.679 to post songs on his YouTube that he hate it, 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:04.200 like joking around, you know. I saw the gun and 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.880 then he picked it up and he did point it 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:11.040 at me. I tried to get it away from him, 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.040 and he said, you don't want to do that now. 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.120 I think the police tried to turn that into like 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:19.760 a threatening thing, but it was more like a you 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:23.000 don't want to piss me off kind of a tone 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:26.520 to it, and I let go. I sat down on 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:29.120 what I remember to be a table like, and I 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:33.400 remember sitting down and I remember covering my face because 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:35.280 I was like, oh God, he's going to kill me, 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.880 because I thought I had set him off to that point. 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:42.760 I heard a clicking noise and I moved my hands 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:46.920 and he had the gun pointed to his head. So 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:49.520 I jumped up and I tried to pull it away 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:55.400 from him, and I heard a pop. I didn't even 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:59.199 realize what had happened at first. I tried to pick 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:02.079 him up and he didn't move, and then I was 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:05.080 pulling on his arm and there was blood, and apparently 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:08.800 my screaming is what woke up some if not all 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:11.559 of them, I don't really know. And I remember running 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:13.880 around the house trying to find a phone and I 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:18.079 called nine one. She she came in at some point 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:20.640 and I told her to go away and everybody to 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:22.880 stay out because they didn't want them to see their father. 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:25.000 They told me they were going to take me to 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:28.880 the hospital. They took him. Finally they came. I felt 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.680 like an eternity, and they told me that they were 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.480 going to take me to the hospital. Then they took 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:36.520 me in a police car and they took me to 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:38.640 the station, which I didn't understand that. They told me 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:41.920 they would take me the hospital after and then they 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:47.360 wanted to talk to me, and um It had some 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:51.880 issues with the law throughout his life, and he always 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:56.240 told me never to talk to the police, and so honestly, 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:59.480 I was afraid that he was going to get in trouble. 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:03.800 So when they asked me what happened, I was like, well, 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:06.679 it's not gonna want me to talk to them, you know. 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:10.480 Do you remember what kind of questions the police ask you. 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:14.200 I don't remember a lot of questions. I remember asking 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:18.760 them questions more. I remember asking them where was when 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:22.480 they were going to take me, but I don't really 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:24.600 remember a lot of questions. But I also told them 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:28.120 I didn't want to answer any questions because in that 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:31.720 light of that situation, what could I tell the police 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.120 that could harm my husband? Because for all I knew 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:36.960 he was coming home in a wheelchair. I have no 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:42.000 idea at this point the extent of how my husband is. 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:46.720 I know nothing, And so I was like, I really 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:49.520 feel like I shouldn't talk to you, and I think 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:52.200 I may have said without a lawyer or something like that, 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:53.880 and really what I wanted to talk to was my 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:58.920 father in law. That made them angry. And then they left, 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:02.560 and then they came back and they told me that 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:06.880 it was gone, and then they told me that they 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:11.800 were going to arrest me, and they well, they took 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:15.640 a bunch of naked pictures of me first, which was bizarre, 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:18.880 which I can't even remember if that was first or after, 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:22.520 but they did take pictures of me, and I didn't understand. 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:27.360 I didn't understand like I thought I was supposed to 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:30.680 go to the hospital. Everything just kind of happened, and 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:35.400 then they took me into this room, and I just 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:38.360 don't even like the whole thing feels like a dream state. 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:40.520 I don't even know what time of day it was, 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:47.120 Like the whole day is just like bizarre fog. I 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:49.800 just feel like I was in shock, Like I don't 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:53.720 even feel like like you don't feel your legs. You're 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:56.720 walking and you're just like in sounds feel like they're 0:12:56.760 --> 0:13:01.160 in another world, like it's not real, Like you can't 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:07.319 even wrap your brain around what's happening. I think they 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:09.720 said something like you're under arrest, and I think I 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:15.520 said for what, and they said murder. I mean, when 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:17.800 they came and said that they were charging me like 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:20.120 that was so shocking to me because I had been 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:22.800 trying to save him for the minute. I tried to 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:27.560 take the gun from him. From years before, I have 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:31.319 hit the gun from him, I hit car keys from him. 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:35.400 I poured five dollars worth of pharmaceuticals down my garbage disposal. 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:39.960 I poured bottles of jim Beam off my patio. I mean, 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:43.920 I spent years keeping this man alive. For that and 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:47.800 for me, that's what I did. And then calling with 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:51.719 an ambulance, I thought they were going to come and 0:13:51.800 --> 0:14:00.720 help him. I just doubted that I was there. I 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:04.680 was there, and I wasn't going to leave him, didn't. 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:11.920 They took him from me, dine alone. We died without 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:22.360 me and I wasn't there, and just everything from them 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:24.680 from the day I met him un till the day 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:32.840 I lost him, I was keeping him alive. Like it 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:39.920 was just like what, like are you insane? And like 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:44.320 you can see in that situation when somebody says, what happened, 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:48.520 like so many things happened, You're like, I can't really 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:53.680 answer that question. I guess from what I understand from 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:57.240 what Phil told me that I was giving conflicting answers 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:00.520 and that I was standing and I was sitting where 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:03.120 he was sitting or he was standing, and we were fighting, 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:06.040 but we weren't fighting. Well, like all of those things 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:08.720 are true. And then it was like somehow, and I 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:11.600 know this is sound weird, but it's almost like didn't 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:14.400 matter any more. It was more like a witch hunt 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:18.040 for me. They took me and I think they were 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:21.600 laughing at me that if I remember correctly, because they 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:27.040 had me in like paper suits and stuff because they 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:30.640 had taken all my clothes. But I'm just talking about 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:33.520 the police station, like I said, it's like pretty voggy. 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.960 I had no shoes, and I remember standing outside of 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:40.560 the police car barefoot when they were bringing me to 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:43.320 the jail. And then they took me in and then they, 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:45.800 I guess what they called process me. They put me 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:47.640 in a room and I think I called my father 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:49.920 in law and I couldn't call my dad because he 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:54.080 was a long distance. They took me to the infirmary 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.640 and they put me in a room and it was flooded, 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:00.520 because I guess that then, I'm guessing that the inmates 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:02.520 do it, but I don't know. But they stuffed the 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:05.760 toilets until they overflow, and then they give you a 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:09.600 pad to sleep on, and they put you in a 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:12.600 sort of straight jacket sort of thing. It's like a 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.720 padded thing that you can wear. I was told later 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:18.840 at some point it was suicide watch. I mean there 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:22.360 was a girl in there that was singing to her baby. 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:26.720 I mean it was what I would imagine a psych 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:30.000 word when would be like. Then they took me out 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:32.480 of there, and then they took me and they put 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:36.720 me in the regular what they called general population. The 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:39.400 girls were really nice to me in there. I was, 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.400 you know, not never been to jail before. I didn't 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:44.320 know what they were going to be like, and I 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:46.880 pretty much just went in my cot They were just 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:49.880 really they were really nice to me. They were I mean, 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:53.200 I can't say anything. I guess I should say that 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:57.040 the experience was horrifying. The experience of losing my family 0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:01.440 was horrifying. Jail was were They were nice women. A 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.000 lot of them were broken women that had been through 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:07.919 some I'm sure difficult trials in their life, you know, 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:11.080 but they were they were trained to me. My dad 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:12.879 came and asked me what to do, and I said 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:16.239 to make sure that they were safe. And then he 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:18.400 sent me a couple of lawyers, and I chose Phil. 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:21.600 I think I understand that it was over twenty one 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:25.239 days that I was in jail. I think that's what 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:40.880 they told me. I can't I can't remember. I'm sorry. 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:48.480 Like I mentioned, Phil was brought on as her defense 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:51.800 attorney early on, while she was still in jail. In 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.359 a series of interviews, I sat down with him and 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:56.919 his staff to find out what her case looked like 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:00.360 from the professionals point of view. We were all own 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:03.280 problems and short on time, and we needed to go 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:05.160 ahead and get her into court. We needed to get 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:07.840 a hearing, uh an evidentury hearing. We needed to find 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:12.120 out why the police we're saying that she was guilty 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:15.359 of murder, so we needed to test their evidence, if 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:18.280 you will. We needed to get our heads wrapped around 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:19.800 what the hell is going over their case? Why did 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:22.399 they charge her with murder so quickly? We had to 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:24.320 file motions to get her into court. We also were 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:26.199 interested in trying to get her out on bail, and 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:28.359 we knew going into this that was a long shot. 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:30.720 Quite frankly, I was not expecting to ever get her out, 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:35.080 at least not on bond, but we did. In my opinion, 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:41.960 they charged her so quickly because they misinterpreted the evidence 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:45.280 that they found at the scene. You have two people 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:48.159 and there's some type of an altercation and there's a 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:53.080 gun involved. One person gets shot and dies. Police sometimes 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:56.520 jump to conclusions and they get tunnel vision, and I 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:58.280 think that's what they did here. They looked at this 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:00.640 and they said, well, you know there was a gun, 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:04.600 somebody's dead, and you know she's alive. Well, she must 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:07.520 have killed him. This happened in close quarters, right, and 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:11.399 she's not who you might expect would prevail in a 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:15.359 physical altercation against him, and they I think misinterpreted the 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:17.480 crime scene a little bit and felt like they were 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:21.320 not close enough together when this altercation took place, that 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:24.040 maybe she had to be sort of across the room. 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:27.280 But there was an initial police and e m S 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:30.760 response that came in pretty quickly and changed some things around. 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:34.240 By the time investigators got there to really try to 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:38.040 truly process the scene, the gun that was involved had 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:41.480 been moved, of course, there was nobody. He had gone 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:45.439 off to the hospital for emergency room treatment, and so 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:50.200 the scene had been manipulated, not not in any malicious way, 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:51.960 but it had been changed. It was not the way 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:55.720 that it existed, you know, when it was just her there, 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:58.159 when she's on the phone with nine one one. It 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:01.280 was changed. So I think they misinterpreted things. They jumped 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:05.320 to some conclusions, I think, and then they built their 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:11.600 case around their misperceptions. I think that's the most charitable 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:15.320 way I could put it. They had a victim and 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:21.320 there was a gunshot entry wound on his left palm. 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:24.520 There was an exit wound out the back of his 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:31.760 left hand, something you should ask Chris Robinson about. You 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:35.199 might remember Chris Robinson from our earlier episode this season 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:39.359 on bite marks and forensic science. In that episode, he 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:42.360 went into the details of his work as a forensic consultant, 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:46.800 including analyzing ballistics and gunshot residue, both of which come 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:50.400 up in this case. So when Phil started assembling the defense, 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:54.000 he brought Chris on to evaluate the crime scene and 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:57.560 help determine whether or not his client's story of struggle 0:20:57.760 --> 0:21:02.920 and self defense was likely or even possible. I believe 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:06.200 the question was the way that the individual was shot, 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:10.000 how close the range of fire was, the angle of 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:13.320 trajectory through the body of the bullet. I believe it 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:17.800 went through his hand and then into his face. So 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:21.919 as it went through his hand, there was stippling on 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:24.600 the hand a little bit, which is the bruising of 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:27.680 the skin about the unburned gunpowder particles, and then he 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:31.119 went through the hand and as it fragmented, that was 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:34.719 stippling all over his face. Some of that was pseudo 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:37.960 stippling from the bones that went through the hand. Some 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:40.040 of that could have been powder because it was very 0:21:40.040 --> 0:21:44.320 close to his face at the time, but the pictures 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:46.679 he was right there. It was eviden I said that 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:49.040 the gun is is up against the handles as you 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:51.840 see it right through the hand, and and Philip was 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:55.080 He's looked at me and he's like, are you serious, 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:58.960 it's right there. Look, it's just still a tear. Stell 0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:02.800 eight is the star shaped pattern. It's just a star 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:07.160 shaped pattern from the contact type of gunshot wing that's 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:12.040 caused by gas pressure. Bullets don't rip bullets punched holes. 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:16.280 When you see stella tearing, that's an indication that most 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:18.840 likely it was a contact shot, which means the muzzle 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:23.159 of the gun was directly up against the hand the skin. 0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:26.280 It was an interesting case. The end of the day. 0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:31.560 Bill's question was, do you think it could have been 0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:34.200 an accident? Well, absolutely, if you're strugging over the weapon. 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:38.400 You see, we showed that his hand was was right 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:41.240 on the gun, very close to the gun, and that 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:44.520 there could have definitely been a struggle over the gun. 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:47.920 We ran through it several dozen times. But he said, 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:50.880 show me how how does the hand get in front 0:22:50.880 --> 0:22:53.879 of his face like it was? How does all this happens? It? Well, 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:56.680 it broke the bombs as it went through and then 0:22:56.720 --> 0:22:59.440 the it went into the face and the face had 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:02.359 he was severe trauma. But she could tell all these things, 0:23:03.359 --> 0:23:06.720 and the more went over it, Philip was like, totally, 0:23:06.960 --> 0:23:09.040 I mean, I can totally see where it was a 0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:14.640 self defense kind of issue. The medical examiner told prosecutors 0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:17.600 that Phil's client had to have been far away and 0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:20.800 shot her husband from across the room. But what Chris 0:23:20.840 --> 0:23:25.120 found was the exact opposite the stippling pattern, meaning how 0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:27.679 the gunshot residue hit his body, as well as the 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:30.480 star shaped bullet entry wound proved that it was a 0:23:30.520 --> 0:23:34.000 shot where the gun was pressed against the skin. This 0:23:34.040 --> 0:23:36.600 describes what Phil's client told police and the nine one 0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:40.320 one operator. She and her husband struggled up close before 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:50.000 the gun went off. The bottom line is that there 0:23:50.080 --> 0:23:53.199 was a struggle for control of a gun. So she 0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:57.160 walks in the room where he was and there's this gun, 0:23:57.240 --> 0:24:00.000 and you know, she's not a gun person, doesn't like gun. 0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:02.919