1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: If you're going to place your left hand on the 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,799 Speaker 1: Bible and raise your right hand, and please repeat after 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: me and I do solemnly swear, then titled action find 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: the defendant guilty of the prime. It makes no sense, 5 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: it doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must aquit. 6 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: We all took the same of office. We're all bound 7 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: by that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution, 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: to bear true faith in allegiance to the same that 9 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: you faithfully discharge the duties of our office. Do you 10 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 12 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: nothing but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio, 13 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. I don't 14 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: even want to you see me. You know, I feel 15 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: very guarded about the whole situation. First of all, you 16 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: have to remember, for so many years, like I couldn't 17 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: even talk about it and not even have my child, 18 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: you know, I had to just kind of keep everything 19 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: so internalized that to some degree it's really hard to 20 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: talk about it. She feels like I should because I 21 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: don't think people realize that this could happen to them, 22 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: you know, because if you talk to people, they're just 23 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: you know, like, oh, well they must have done something, 24 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: you know, because that doesn't happen to normal people, Like 25 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: that would never happen to me. Sometimes it doesn't even 26 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: feel like it happened to us. It's like in another 27 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: dimension or something like you can't even like retreat it 28 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: as an actual like thing. And it's like I don't 29 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: know about for her, but for me after that night, 30 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: my whole life before then, it feels like a dream, 31 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: Like I can't even access the person that I was, feelings, 32 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: I had, the thoughts I have about really anything. It's 33 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: like it walked behind like do you know what I mean. 34 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: I don't know how to describe it anymore than that, 35 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: you know, something horrible happening and I'm a phone call 36 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: for help and I didn't receive help. Hi everyone, my 37 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: name is Christina and I'm the lead producer on this 38 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: season of Sworn. This episode is the first in a 39 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: three part series, a sort of culminating case study for 40 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: the topics we've covered so far this season of Sworn. 41 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: We divided most of the episodes into topics instead of cases, 42 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: and looked at some of the problems and technicalities and 43 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: the legal system, many of which come into play in 44 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: this case. I really encourage you to take a listen 45 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,519 Speaker 1: through the first part of this season to learn more 46 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:53,959 Speaker 1: about the factors that we'll get into in these next 47 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: three episodes. The reason you're hearing my voice right now 48 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,080 Speaker 1: instead of Phil's is that Phil is actually one of 49 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: our subjects in this case. In two thousand and nine, 50 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: Phil took on a case that would turn into one 51 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: of the biggest and most impactful in his career as 52 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: a defense attorney. When we were planning this season, talking 53 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: about problems with the justice system, he recommended we covered 54 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: this case right away. But since he was so close 55 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: to it being her defense attorney, we decided I would 56 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: take the lead and see what I could find out 57 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: about how the case impacted her, her family, and Phil himself. 58 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 1: So for the next three episodes, we're going to dive 59 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: into the details of that case, showing you what happened 60 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: from start to finish. The woman feel defended graciously agreed 61 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: to share her story with us, but for the sake 62 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: of her privacy and her children's privacy, we've changed her 63 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: voice and removed any identifying information that was her at 64 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: the beginning of the episode, and she talked about making 65 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: a call to get help the night of the incident. 66 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: She called one and things started to spiral from there. 67 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: I'd like to play you some of that nine one 68 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: one call now. We've edited it for clarity and privacy, 69 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: but I want to warn you it's pretty graphic. I'm 70 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: kind of hard to listen to. I haven't argue with 71 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: my husband. We were in my stepson's room and he 72 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: was listening to me. He was like, we're doing there, 73 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,559 Speaker 1: and we were arguing, how are you coining his gun 74 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: at me? I tried to push it away from him, 75 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: and he said, you don't want to do that. And 76 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: the next thing I know, then did you hear it 77 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: go off? What did you hear the gun go off? Husband? 78 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: He's making wise, he's making noise. Yes, I think it's 79 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:50,119 Speaker 1: been more off this flood everywhere. He was trained to 80 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: shoot me and I was fighting with the gun and 81 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:54,720 Speaker 1: he said, you didn't want to do that, and then 82 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: the gun went off and the next thing I know, 83 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 1: my husband has covered its blood. So hurry, Okay. Do 84 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: you think this was accidentally? Do you think he essentially 85 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 1: shot himself? I don't know. I note that she was 86 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: angry trump the door. Oh my kissing. We were both 87 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 1: drinking and we were talking, and I was talking on 88 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: the phone with my friend and he was in this 89 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: room and he was listening. Did YouTube puns it? And 90 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: I can't he planing from his head, which is sleep. Hurry, 91 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: and they're on the way. I just need to let 92 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: them know what's going on. Okay. The important thing is 93 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 1: just to keep perfect. It's everywhere. And my my eleven 94 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: year old daughter came to the door and she said, 95 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 1: as everything okay, and I closed the door unfured with sleep. Hurry, 96 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: okay's on the scene right now, okay, okay. Oh do 97 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: you hear the ambulance coming. The ambulance is coming, bye, 98 00:05:53,360 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: good bye, to bye. Class. I sat down with Phil's 99 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: client and two of her children in Phil's office to 100 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 1: hear about this horrific experience. You might hear some people 101 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 1: walking around in the background. One last note on privacy. 102 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: We've beaped out her husband's name, the man who died. 103 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: Is there something from the night of the incident that 104 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 1: stands out the most? Yes, was I don't know the word. 105 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: I don't want to say. Calm but he was very agreeable. 106 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: He was very just whatever, just kind of agreeable. Like, 107 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: for instance, I had to go to the library to 108 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 1: get their summer reading because I hadn't finished getting them 109 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 1: their summer reading and school wasn't getting ready to start, 110 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: and I had to go to the grocery store. So 111 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: I had all this stuff I had to do, and 112 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: I had to go and pick up my paycheck, and 113 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: so I was leaving the house with the kids to 114 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: go pick up her and stuff. And I was sitting 115 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: on the living room floor with the Monopoly board game out, 116 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: and he was making the kids complain monopoly with them, 117 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: which wasn't unusual except for the fact that he was 118 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: adamant that night one of the kids won, or more 119 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: likely her husband let them win. Nobody ever beat Monopoly, 120 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: like it was like unheard of because he cheated terribly, 121 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: Like he just he didn't beat your dad of Monopoly, 122 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: like he'd find a way to win. And so I 123 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: was laughing, and it was like everything was kind of cool, 124 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: you know, But he was just there was like a 125 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: just like an okay, nous, like he wasn't agitated. There 126 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: was like nothing weird, which was almost a little bit abnormal, 127 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: you know, not that he was you know, it wasn't 128 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: a jerk or anything, but he just wasn't very chill. 129 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: And then um, he came to the back door and 130 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: he said, can you drive me to the quick trip? 131 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: And I said, well, I had a glass of wine, 132 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: I'm not going to drive, and he's said, oh, okay, 133 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: and he closed the door. So then I saw the 134 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: headlights moving out of the driveway, which made me mad 135 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: because I used to repeatedly hide car keys from him 136 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: so that he wouldn't drink and drive because he went 137 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: did tend to be somewhat self destructive. And then he 138 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: was in the room and the door was locked because 139 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: it locked him in there, and I knocked on the 140 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: door and I said, do you want to come and 141 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: sit with me because I'm gonna go to bed soon 142 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: and he was like yeah, I'll be right out, and 143 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: I was like okay, and I went and I checked 144 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: my email, knocked on the door again. He unlocked the 145 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: door and I walked in and he was listening to 146 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: music and I saw the gun on the on the 147 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:48,839 Speaker 1: desk and it wasn't supposed to be in the house. 148 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: I was like, what is that doing in the house. 149 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: I think I even made a joke because the reason 150 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: I went over to the computer was that if he 151 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: didn't hurry up and come outside, that I was going 152 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 1: to post songs on his YouTube that he hate it, 153 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: like joking around, you know. I saw the gun and 154 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: then he picked it up and he did point it 155 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: at me. I tried to get it away from him, 156 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: and he said, you don't want to do that now. 157 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: I think the police tried to turn that into like 158 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: a threatening thing, but it was more like a you 159 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: don't want to piss me off kind of a tone 160 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: to it, and I let go. I sat down on 161 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: what I remember to be a table like, and I 162 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: remember sitting down and I remember covering my face because 163 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: I was like, oh God, he's going to kill me, 164 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: because I thought I had set him off to that point. 165 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: I heard a clicking noise and I moved my hands 166 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: and he had the gun pointed to his head. So 167 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: I jumped up and I tried to pull it away 168 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: from him, and I heard a pop. I didn't even 169 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,199 Speaker 1: realize what had happened at first. I tried to pick 170 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 1: him up and he didn't move, and then I was 171 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: pulling on his arm and there was blood, and apparently 172 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: my screaming is what woke up some if not all 173 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 1: of them, I don't really know. And I remember running 174 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: around the house trying to find a phone and I 175 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 1: called nine one. She she came in at some point 176 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: and I told her to go away and everybody to 177 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: stay out because they didn't want them to see their father. 178 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: They told me they were going to take me to 179 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: the hospital. They took him. Finally they came. I felt 180 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: like an eternity, and they told me that they were 181 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: going to take me to the hospital. Then they took 182 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: me in a police car and they took me to 183 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: the station, which I didn't understand that. They told me 184 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: they would take me the hospital after and then they 185 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: wanted to talk to me, and um It had some 186 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: issues with the law throughout his life, and he always 187 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: told me never to talk to the police, and so honestly, 188 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: I was afraid that he was going to get in trouble. 189 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: So when they asked me what happened, I was like, well, 190 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 1: it's not gonna want me to talk to them, you know. 191 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: Do you remember what kind of questions the police ask you. 192 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: I don't remember a lot of questions. I remember asking 193 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: them questions more. I remember asking them where was when 194 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: they were going to take me, but I don't really 195 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: remember a lot of questions. But I also told them 196 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: I didn't want to answer any questions because in that 197 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: light of that situation, what could I tell the police 198 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: that could harm my husband? Because for all I knew 199 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: he was coming home in a wheelchair. I have no 200 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: idea at this point the extent of how my husband is. 201 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: I know nothing, And so I was like, I really 202 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: feel like I shouldn't talk to you, and I think 203 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: I may have said without a lawyer or something like that, 204 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: and really what I wanted to talk to was my 205 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: father in law. That made them angry. And then they left, 206 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: and then they came back and they told me that 207 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: it was gone, and then they told me that they 208 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: were going to arrest me, and they well, they took 209 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: a bunch of naked pictures of me first, which was bizarre, 210 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: which I can't even remember if that was first or after, 211 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: but they did take pictures of me, and I didn't understand. 212 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: I didn't understand like I thought I was supposed to 213 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 1: go to the hospital. Everything just kind of happened, and 214 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: then they took me into this room, and I just 215 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: don't even like the whole thing feels like a dream state. 216 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: I don't even know what time of day it was, 217 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: Like the whole day is just like bizarre fog. I 218 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: just feel like I was in shock, Like I don't 219 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: even feel like like you don't feel your legs. You're 220 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: walking and you're just like in sounds feel like they're 221 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: in another world, like it's not real, Like you can't 222 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 1: even wrap your brain around what's happening. I think they 223 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: said something like you're under arrest, and I think I 224 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: said for what, and they said murder. I mean, when 225 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: they came and said that they were charging me like 226 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: that was so shocking to me because I had been 227 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: trying to save him for the minute. I tried to 228 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: take the gun from him. From years before, I have 229 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 1: hit the gun from him, I hit car keys from him. 230 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: I poured five dollars worth of pharmaceuticals down my garbage disposal. 231 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: I poured bottles of jim Beam off my patio. I mean, 232 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: I spent years keeping this man alive. For that and 233 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: for me, that's what I did. And then calling with 234 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,719 Speaker 1: an ambulance, I thought they were going to come and 235 00:13:51,800 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: help him. I just doubted that I was there. I 236 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: was there, and I wasn't going to leave him, didn't. 237 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: They took him from me, dine alone. We died without 238 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: me and I wasn't there, and just everything from them 239 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: from the day I met him un till the day 240 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: I lost him, I was keeping him alive. Like it 241 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: was just like what, like are you insane? And like 242 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: you can see in that situation when somebody says, what happened, 243 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: like so many things happened, You're like, I can't really 244 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: answer that question. I guess from what I understand from 245 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: what Phil told me that I was giving conflicting answers 246 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: and that I was standing and I was sitting where 247 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: he was sitting or he was standing, and we were fighting, 248 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: but we weren't fighting. Well, like all of those things 249 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: are true. And then it was like somehow, and I 250 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: know this is sound weird, but it's almost like didn't 251 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: matter any more. It was more like a witch hunt 252 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: for me. They took me and I think they were 253 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: laughing at me that if I remember correctly, because they 254 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: had me in like paper suits and stuff because they 255 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: had taken all my clothes. But I'm just talking about 256 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: the police station, like I said, it's like pretty voggy. 257 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: I had no shoes, and I remember standing outside of 258 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: the police car barefoot when they were bringing me to 259 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: the jail. And then they took me in and then they, 260 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: I guess what they called process me. They put me 261 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: in a room and I think I called my father 262 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: in law and I couldn't call my dad because he 263 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: was a long distance. They took me to the infirmary 264 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: and they put me in a room and it was flooded, 265 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: because I guess that then, I'm guessing that the inmates 266 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: do it, but I don't know. But they stuffed the 267 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: toilets until they overflow, and then they give you a 268 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: pad to sleep on, and they put you in a 269 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: sort of straight jacket sort of thing. It's like a 270 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: padded thing that you can wear. I was told later 271 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: at some point it was suicide watch. I mean there 272 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: was a girl in there that was singing to her baby. 273 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: I mean it was what I would imagine a psych 274 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: word when would be like. Then they took me out 275 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: of there, and then they took me and they put 276 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: me in the regular what they called general population. The 277 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: girls were really nice to me in there. I was, 278 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: you know, not never been to jail before. I didn't 279 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: know what they were going to be like, and I 280 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: pretty much just went in my cot They were just 281 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: really they were really nice to me. They were I mean, 282 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: I can't say anything. I guess I should say that 283 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: the experience was horrifying. The experience of losing my family 284 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: was horrifying. Jail was were They were nice women. A 285 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: lot of them were broken women that had been through 286 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: some I'm sure difficult trials in their life, you know, 287 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: but they were they were trained to me. My dad 288 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: came and asked me what to do, and I said 289 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,239 Speaker 1: to make sure that they were safe. And then he 290 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 1: sent me a couple of lawyers, and I chose Phil. 291 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: I think I understand that it was over twenty one 292 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,239 Speaker 1: days that I was in jail. I think that's what 293 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 1: they told me. I can't I can't remember. I'm sorry. 294 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: Like I mentioned, Phil was brought on as her defense 295 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: attorney early on, while she was still in jail. In 296 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: a series of interviews, I sat down with him and 297 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 1: his staff to find out what her case looked like 298 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,360 Speaker 1: from the professionals point of view. We were all own 299 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: problems and short on time, and we needed to go 300 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: ahead and get her into court. We needed to get 301 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: a hearing, uh an evidentury hearing. We needed to find 302 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 1: out why the police we're saying that she was guilty 303 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: of murder, so we needed to test their evidence, if 304 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: you will. We needed to get our heads wrapped around 305 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: what the hell is going over their case? Why did 306 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 1: they charge her with murder so quickly? We had to 307 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: file motions to get her into court. We also were 308 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:26,199 Speaker 1: interested in trying to get her out on bail, and 309 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: we knew going into this that was a long shot. 310 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: Quite frankly, I was not expecting to ever get her out, 311 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: at least not on bond, but we did. In my opinion, 312 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: they charged her so quickly because they misinterpreted the evidence 313 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: that they found at the scene. You have two people 314 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 1: and there's some type of an altercation and there's a 315 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: gun involved. One person gets shot and dies. Police sometimes 316 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: jump to conclusions and they get tunnel vision, and I 317 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: think that's what they did here. They looked at this 318 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 1: and they said, well, you know there was a gun, 319 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: somebody's dead, and you know she's alive. Well, she must 320 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: have killed him. This happened in close quarters, right, and 321 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: she's not who you might expect would prevail in a 322 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: physical altercation against him, and they I think misinterpreted the 323 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: crime scene a little bit and felt like they were 324 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: not close enough together when this altercation took place, that 325 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: maybe she had to be sort of across the room. 326 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: But there was an initial police and e m S 327 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: response that came in pretty quickly and changed some things around. 328 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: By the time investigators got there to really try to 329 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: truly process the scene, the gun that was involved had 330 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: been moved, of course, there was nobody. He had gone 331 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: off to the hospital for emergency room treatment, and so 332 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: the scene had been manipulated, not not in any malicious way, 333 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: but it had been changed. It was not the way 334 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: that it existed, you know, when it was just her there, 335 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 1: when she's on the phone with nine one one. It 336 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: was changed. So I think they misinterpreted things. They jumped 337 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: to some conclusions, I think, and then they built their 338 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: case around their misperceptions. I think that's the most charitable 339 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: way I could put it. They had a victim and 340 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: there was a gunshot entry wound on his left palm. 341 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: There was an exit wound out the back of his 342 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: left hand, something you should ask Chris Robinson about. You 343 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,199 Speaker 1: might remember Chris Robinson from our earlier episode this season 344 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: on bite marks and forensic science. In that episode, he 345 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,360 Speaker 1: went into the details of his work as a forensic consultant, 346 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: including analyzing ballistics and gunshot residue, both of which come 347 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 1: up in this case. So when Phil started assembling the defense, 348 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: he brought Chris on to evaluate the crime scene and 349 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: help determine whether or not his client's story of struggle 350 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 1: and self defense was likely or even possible. I believe 351 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: the question was the way that the individual was shot, 352 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: how close the range of fire was, the angle of 353 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: trajectory through the body of the bullet. I believe it 354 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: went through his hand and then into his face. So 355 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 1: as it went through his hand, there was stippling on 356 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: the hand a little bit, which is the bruising of 357 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 1: the skin about the unburned gunpowder particles, and then he 358 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 1: went through the hand and as it fragmented, that was 359 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,719 Speaker 1: stippling all over his face. Some of that was pseudo 360 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: stippling from the bones that went through the hand. Some 361 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: of that could have been powder because it was very 362 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: close to his face at the time, but the pictures 363 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 1: he was right there. It was eviden I said that 364 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: the gun is is up against the handles as you 365 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: see it right through the hand, and and Philip was 366 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: He's looked at me and he's like, are you serious, 367 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: it's right there. Look, it's just still a tear. Stell 368 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: eight is the star shaped pattern. It's just a star 369 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 1: shaped pattern from the contact type of gunshot wing that's 370 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: caused by gas pressure. Bullets don't rip bullets punched holes. 371 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: When you see stella tearing, that's an indication that most 372 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: likely it was a contact shot, which means the muzzle 373 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 1: of the gun was directly up against the hand the skin. 374 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: It was an interesting case. The end of the day. 375 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: Bill's question was, do you think it could have been 376 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: an accident? Well, absolutely, if you're strugging over the weapon. 377 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:38,400 Speaker 1: You see, we showed that his hand was was right 378 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: on the gun, very close to the gun, and that 379 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: there could have definitely been a struggle over the gun. 380 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 1: We ran through it several dozen times. But he said, 381 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,880 Speaker 1: show me how how does the hand get in front 382 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 1: of his face like it was? How does all this happens? It? Well, 383 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: it broke the bombs as it went through and then 384 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 1: the it went into the face and the face had 385 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: he was severe trauma. But she could tell all these things, 386 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: and the more went over it, Philip was like, totally, 387 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I can totally see where it was a 388 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: self defense kind of issue. The medical examiner told prosecutors 389 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: that Phil's client had to have been far away and 390 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: shot her husband from across the room. But what Chris 391 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 1: found was the exact opposite the stippling pattern, meaning how 392 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,679 Speaker 1: the gunshot residue hit his body, as well as the 393 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: star shaped bullet entry wound proved that it was a 394 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: shot where the gun was pressed against the skin. This 395 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: describes what Phil's client told police and the nine one 396 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: one operator. She and her husband struggled up close before 397 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: the gun went off. The bottom line is that there 398 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 1: was a struggle for control of a gun. So she 399 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 1: walks in the room where he was and there's this gun, 400 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: and you know, she's not a gun person, doesn't like gun. 401 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,919 Speaker 1: In fact, took a long time for me to be 402 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: able to even try to reconstruct this using an unloaded weapon, 403 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: and we did that eventually. We we talked about it 404 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 1: with Chris, and Chris and I were able to piece 405 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: it all together. Once we got some photographs and some 406 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: other evidence from the prosecutors, we were able to try 407 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: to go in and test what she said on the 408 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 1: nine one one call. Could these things have actually happened? 409 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: If he's right handed and he's holding a gun and 410 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: they're fighting over control of it, Is it possible for 411 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: what she said to the nine one one operator you know, 412 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: to have happened, and lo and behold it was in fact, 413 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: if if you're holding this particular gun and it was 414 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 1: a glaw and you've got your finger on the trigger 415 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: and the person that you're pointing it at reaches out, 416 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: which would be the natural thing to do is to 417 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: reach out and sort of push it back or whatever. 418 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: I remember back in my days in the police academy, 419 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: we actually trained for how do you what do you 420 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: do as somebody's close to you and they in a 421 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: gun at you. Well, one of the first things that 422 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: you can do, if it's your revolver, you just take 423 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 1: your your hand and you clamp down over the top 424 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: of the gun and you grab the cylinder of the 425 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 1: revolver and they can't pull the trigger and it won't fire. 426 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,199 Speaker 1: So that's what you do with the revolver. But with 427 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: an automatic weapon or in this case, a semi automatic handgun, 428 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: the best thing to do defensively is to grab the 429 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: end of the weapon, the barrel, the business in and 430 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: point it in another direction so that if they do 431 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: pull the trigger, it's not coming right at you. That's 432 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: sort of the instinctual thing that somebody's going to do. 433 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: They're gonna grab the end of that weapon and they're 434 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: gonna try to push one way or the other. And 435 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: if the person who's holding that gun, if their finger 436 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,719 Speaker 1: is on the trigger, unless they move their finger out 437 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: of the trigger, if you rotate the business into that 438 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: gun just a few degrees either side, left or right, 439 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: the finger is going to contract and your hand is 440 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: gonna cause your your trigger, your trigger finger basically to 441 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: pull the trigger, even though it's an involuntary movement. Chris 442 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: and I went through this, and we we tested this scenario, 443 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: and we never practiced this with a live round, of course, 444 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: but using an unloaded glock, you can do it. I've 445 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: got one here, and you can hear the click if 446 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,239 Speaker 1: you want to hear it, so you can hear it's 447 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 1: it's a real gun. It's unloaded, there's nothing in the chamber. 448 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: I'm not pointing it anybody, but I'm gonna hold it 449 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: out with my arm extended like I'm pointing it at someone. 450 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: And then what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna take 451 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: my left hand, you push this barrel. What you'll hear 452 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: is and that's once I took the end of the 453 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: weapon and I basically just pushed the barrel to to 454 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: the to the side. It caused my trigger finger to click. 455 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: So we knew that it was plausible, if not probable, 456 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: that she was telling the truth. This is something that 457 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: nobody ever really thought about. They just said, well, she 458 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: said he was pointing at it himself. He was pointing 459 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 1: in at her. He was waving around. You know, she 460 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: she can't get make up her mind what the truth is, 461 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,360 Speaker 1: so she must be guilty. But the truth is all 462 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:10,199 Speaker 1: those things were probably happening. The medical examiner came up 463 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 1: with some cookie theory that she must have been across 464 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: the room because there was no stipling on his hand, 465 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: and he totally ignored the fact that it was still 466 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: eight entrance. When I knew the medical examiner's uh conclusions 467 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 1: were bullshit, and I knew I was gonna have to 468 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: prove it. But I was able to figure out that 469 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 1: he had had some problems. He was actually sanctioned by 470 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: the state his medical license. I don't think it was suspended, 471 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 1: but it I think he went into a probationary status 472 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: because he was disciplined for, you know, doing a bunch 473 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: of sloppy autopsies a number of years before this, and 474 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 1: he had entered into an agreement where they wouldn't suspend 475 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 1: his medical license, but he had to do a bunch 476 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: of autopsies under some kind of supervision and in a 477 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,719 Speaker 1: probationary sort of a status. So I knew that this 478 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: guy had problems, and I knew that I'd known it 479 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 1: about it for a long time. And when I saw 480 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 1: his bizarre conclusions, I thought to myself, you know, he 481 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,199 Speaker 1: may very well be at it again, and and I 482 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 1: need to get a sharp set of medical eyes on this. 483 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: So we we reached out to a doctor who used 484 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: to be the chief medical examiner for the state of Kentucky. 485 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,719 Speaker 1: At the end of the day, he confirmed and I'm 486 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: gonna read part of his report. He says, a tighter 487 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: press contact gunshot wound will produce the exact same skin 488 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: findings and facial markings as seen in this case. The 489 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:46,479 Speaker 1: only means to prove or disprove a tight contact wound 490 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: is a careful dissection of the deeper injuries in the 491 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: wound track. This was not done. This death is considered 492 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: by me to be an undetermined manner of death. I 493 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: favor accident as the results of a struggle between the 494 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: two people over control of the weapon. There is no 495 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: proof of homicide. This told me that all along everything 496 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: that I had thought and believed about this case, I 497 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: felt vindicated personally, but that didn't do her a hell 498 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: of a lot of good. She was still charged with murder. 499 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: I knew we were on the right path, at least 500 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: towards getting to the truth. Unfortunately, it took a long 501 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: long time and a lot of money and some good 502 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: help from from experts to to get to the truth. 503 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: We shouldn't be the ones having to prove this. The 504 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: police should have gotten this riot, but they didn't. This 505 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: is Caitlyn Phil's former are illegal. She worked with still 506 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: on all aspects of this case. I was first paralegal 507 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: for about four years. I have since moved to North 508 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: Georgia and I am no longer working in law. I'm 509 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: an optician now, but that probably doesn't matter, you know, 510 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: with this being five years ago. My mind is not 511 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: as crystal clear as when everything was happening, So I 512 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: would also just like to stay you know, I don't 513 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: want to mislead and I don't want to missay anything, 514 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: but you no, my my memories have might have changed 515 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: just a little bit. So he took on her case 516 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: a little bit before I got there, So it was 517 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: probably nine months nine to twelve months underway when I 518 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: joined Phil. You know, that was the biggest thing he 519 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: had going at the time, so I immediately was brought 520 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: to speed. It was very important. It carried a lot 521 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: of weight and at least to me, it was clear 522 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: that she did not need to be charged criminally for anything. 523 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: I know. He was very heavily invested through work but 524 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: also emotionally, and it was a very big time in 525 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: both of our lives because he had this in front 526 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: of him where she was potentially faced with a very 527 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: I mean it was a very big charge. She could 528 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: spend her life in prison, and he was just faced 529 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: with making sure that didn't happen, because we knew that 530 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: didn't need to happen. As far as I know, I 531 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: had access to everything. If Phil had access to it, 532 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: I had access to it. So I knew she wasn't 533 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: criminally guilty because I knew about her past in her 534 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 1: relationship with him. Um, and I knew the story, and 535 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: I knew the evidence. You know, I learned so much 536 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: about stifling and how bone fragments fracture when gunshots come 537 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: in at certain angles. Every single piece of direct, circumstantial, 538 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: any type of evidence just pointed to I mean, it 539 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: wasn't her. She didn't she didn't do it. She was 540 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: sending herself. I actually was going through discovery gathering, compiling 541 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: things for Phil and stumbled upon the autopsy photos unexpectedly. 542 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: Once it was shocking, But then once I saw it, 543 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: you know, and took a second and realize, okay, this 544 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: is what I'm looking at it, really it was intriguing. 545 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: H I mean, just everything pointed to the fact that 546 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 1: she was not criminally responsible for anything. I met her 547 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: and her four children. Um, I met her parents also. 548 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I'll never forget any of them. They're really 549 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: great people there. She especially, It's just the type of 550 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: person you don't forget. I say, I had friends, you know, 551 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: I was newly out of college at the time. Now, 552 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 1: her friends asked me, how can you defend criminals, and 553 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: my mind always went to her. She isn't a criminal, 554 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 1: but she's being charge like one. And the law can 555 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: be very black and white sometimes, and you need criminal 556 00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: defense attorneys to protect people from being railroaded by the state. 557 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: People need protecting from that, and she was a perfect 558 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: example of someone who was not guilty, who could be 559 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: charged with something, but it is not guilty of a crime. 560 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: Next time on Sworn, there was a laundry list of 561 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: churches did they offered the plea? And I think that 562 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: it was volunteering manslaughter. At first I didn't want the plea. 563 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: I was like, no, I'm not taking a police I 564 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: was furious, dude that he told me about the Alfred plea. 565 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: Sworn is a production of Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio. 566 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: Our lead producer is Christina Dana. Executive producers are Payne 567 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: Lindsay and Donald Albright for Tenderfoot TV, Matt Frederick and 568 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: Alex Williams for I Heart Radio, and myself Philip Holloway. 569 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: Additional production by Trevor Young, Mason Lindsay, Mike Rooney, Jamie Albright, 570 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: and Halle Beadall. Original music and sound designed by Makeup 571 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: and vanity set. Our theme song is Blood in the 572 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: Water by Layup. Show art and design is by Trevor Eisler, 573 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: editing by Christina Dana, mixing and mastering by Mike Rooney 574 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: and Cooper Skinner. Special thanks to the team at I 575 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 1: Heart Radio from u t a or In Rosenbaum and 576 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: Grace Royer, Ryan Nord and Matthew Papa from the Nord Group, 577 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: Back Media and Marketing, and Station sixteen. I'd also like 578 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 1: to extend a very personal and special thanks to all 579 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: of our contributors and guests who have helped to make 580 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: all of these episodes possible. You can find Sworn on Facebook, Twitter, 581 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,800 Speaker 1: and Instagram at Sworn podcast and follow me your host, 582 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: Philip Halloway on Twitter at phil Holloway e s Q. 583 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: Our website is sworn podcast dot com, and you can 584 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: check out other Tenderfoot TV podcasts at www dot tenderfoot 585 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 1: dot tv. If you have questions or comments, you can 586 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: email us at Sworn at tenderfoot dot tv or leave 587 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: us a voicemail at four zero four for one zero 588 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: zero four one. As always, thanks for listening.