1 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: Ah beaut Force. If it doesn't work, you're just not 2 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to Software Radio, Special Operations, Military 3 00:00:25,520 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: news and straight talk with the guys and the community 4 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: soprep dot Com on Time on Target episode three d 5 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: twenty six. Jack Divine is here in studio, former acting 6 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: director and Associate director of the CIA's operations outside the US. 7 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: Over thirty years in the CIA, and the last time 8 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: we had your on was episode three oh nine. And 9 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: for those who don't know, Jack's the author of Good Hunting, 10 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: also the president and founder of the Arkham Group. My 11 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: partner and I, Stanley Arkin, and I found the the 12 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 1: the Arkham Group almost seventeen years ago. Well, it's been 13 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: business a long time. The last time you were on, 14 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: people were raving about your history and your knowledge. I mean, 15 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: thirty plus years in the CIA, there's so much to 16 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: talk about. So we had to have you back in 17 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: studio this time with Jack. We have a lot of 18 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: guys on the show who kind of work where the 19 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: rubber meets the asphalts and know those ground pounders out there. 20 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: It's kind of rare that we actually have somebody who worked, 21 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: you know, high up at the level that you did. 22 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: You know, in an organization like the CIA. So this 23 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: is really a privilege for Jack. Just everyone understands I 24 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: didn't start at the top. I started to every bottom, 25 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: and I'm glad to say that. Um. The other thing 26 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: that I think might be of interest to the listeners 27 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: is that most CIA people can't really talk there. They 28 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: worked in clandestine operations the whole time. Their assets are 29 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: still alive or the operations remains sensitive. My careers a 30 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: bit different than certainly the vast majority, and that half 31 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: of my career was in the action part. So I 32 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: certainly ran operations with paramilitary programs, but uh covert action 33 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 1: political and para military programs, and a number of things 34 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: that I touched became public. Those types of activities work 35 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: their way in the news paper. Actually when I endi 36 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 1: was in the Afghan program to drive the Russians out, 37 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: the Iran country affair, which we can you know, go 38 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: into all these different things when they become public, you're 39 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: now part of the the record, you're part of the 40 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,959 Speaker 1: history books. And Rick Ames, you know I knew and 41 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: the spy inside the c i A. I was listening 42 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: to that the previous podcast that you did before with 43 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: Ian and I mean that's just chilling. You said you 44 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: went to his wedding. Well, I did go to his wedding, um, 45 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: and you know I have um good recollection of my 46 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: early time with him. He's actually the first official in 47 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: c I A. He's two years ahead of me I 48 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: think for a year and a half in the process 49 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: of going through and his family. He was what would 50 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: call c I a brad He was father was he 51 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: was a legacy baby. He was he was a baby 52 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: of a father who was in the CIA. I'm not 53 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: sure it's like we would call a legacy. But Rick was, 54 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: you know, a staunch anti communists, believed in going against 55 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: the Russians and particularly looking for malls. I mean there's 56 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: an iron nous, of course, but as I mentioned last time, 57 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 1: he underperformed as an officer throughout his career and eventually 58 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: he fell behind its peers. You mentioned how it creates 59 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 1: a kind of resentment for the organization that they work for, 60 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: that they feel they have not been promoted as quickly 61 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: as they should have, right, and it leads to dissatisfaction, faction, 62 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: and disrunt old workers. There's a lot of disrunt old workers, 63 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: I'm sure, even in Sure operations, but they don't always 64 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: become the factors or traders. So but when you have 65 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: that laziness and you have become disenchanted with the mission 66 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: in your country, then you become very vulnerable. Frankly, on 67 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: our side of the operating table, we would look at 68 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 1: the Russians and the Chinese and think, you Uban's in 69 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: the Cold War, and we would be looking for the 70 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: same those types of characteristics, people that were disenchanted with 71 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: the system, not doing well in the system, or the 72 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: subject that prejudice within the system, and they often provided 73 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: great targets for recruitments. While we have you here, because 74 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: I've been reading your book and um you talk about 75 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: a lot of these different paramilitary actions that you had 76 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: involved meant with, and I was just wondering if I 77 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: could get you to kind of reflect on your background 78 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: and contextualize what was happening during this time period, sort 79 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: of the twilight years of the Cold War, that we 80 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 1: had a paramilitary program in Afghanistan, Angola, Central America. Could 81 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: you I mean, I think for the public, they see 82 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: this as a big proxy war between the Soviet Union 83 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: and the United States, which was true. But I was 84 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: wondering if you could kind of inform us and and 85 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: understand how these different programs related to one another, and 86 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: you know what the mentality the culture was at the time. 87 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 1: I will drift to that, but let me just start 88 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: with one thought picture. I've been thinking a great deal 89 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: about it. I'm reading Ulysses S. Grant, the number one 90 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: best seller right now, and I'm not putting a plug 91 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: in for per Se, but what I find fascinating. You 92 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: can get warned down in each of the battles, you know, 93 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 1: Vicksburg's Gettysburg, and they're all fascinating their own right. But 94 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: when you when I stood back, I realized that some 95 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 1: of Grant's real strengths was he was a quartermaster, and 96 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: I had quartermaster existing logistics. I've come to believe over 97 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: over the years of looking at operations that you know, 98 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: you need brave warriors for sure, and good weapons, but 99 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 1: the logistical support of any operation, the mechanics of it, 100 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: are terribly important. So when you look at these covert 101 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: action operations you're talking about, and when you think of Aghanistan, 102 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: I mean you're talking about thousand insurgents or fighters you 103 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: know that we were uh working with. You've got to 104 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: find weapons for it. If you have to deliver those weapons, 105 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: you have to pick the right weapons, You need medical supplies, 106 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: and you think about it, they get fed. So there 107 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: is a huge logistical trail that supports even the paramilitary operations. 108 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: So this is different than twenty special forces people jumping 109 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: in somewhere quick op and out. When you have a 110 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: sustained insurgency, the unsung heroes um and this is I 111 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: suspect true in all aspects of the military and co 112 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: redaction operations or the logistics people. I mean, things just 113 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: don't get done. So if I were called in to 114 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,559 Speaker 1: run an operation that when I said, who's my logistics chief? 115 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: You know I want to get the best one. We 116 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: can make this this happen. So the beauty of the 117 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:07,239 Speaker 1: Afghan program, coming to your point, was you really looked 118 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: at a little over a hundred American officers involved in 119 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: the entire operation, and that is amazingly small numbers. So 120 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: you have to leverage that we had allies in the 121 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: case of the Pakistani's that certainly were involved, but it 122 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: had a low footprint, rooms it certainly hit the papers. 123 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: It wasn't a clandestine war, was more of a even 124 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,439 Speaker 1: that was stretching at right when you're harming people and 125 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: it stinger missiles against thinner and thinner, But it wasn't 126 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: a direct US US Russian confrontation. You avoided that and 127 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: you again tried to keep it from becoming a Them 128 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 1: on US direct military confrontation. And there's much to be 129 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: said for it. And I worry when we go into 130 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: countries and we build permanent bases and occupying Syria for instance, Well, 131 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I think even if we go close to home, 132 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: when we think of Afghanistan and more moderate times, I 133 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: think our special forces in the CIA teams are on 134 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: the ground early that brought down the Taliban did a 135 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: great job with a very small footprint. But once we 136 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: decided to stay, then I think all that infrastructure has 137 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: to go in. And whether you want to make the 138 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: government have a better judicial system, voting system, you get 139 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: into all of the dynamics of government building and you 140 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: try and overlay it on a different culture, You're you're 141 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: biting off something much bigger than a you know, a 142 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: strategic and tactical military operation. So I'm not a nation builder. 143 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: As we discussed before, there was a point in time 144 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: when I was working in Afghani War with Charlie Wilson. 145 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: I dabbled with that as being maybe a possible the 146 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: thing that maybe we should have stayed behind and done more. 147 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: But as time was going by, I really feel that, um, 148 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: you should do everything you can to be a permanent, occupying, 149 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: buying force. And I think listened to one of West 150 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 1: Points generals the other day. So one of the early 151 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: adages that is drilled into West Point is is, you know, 152 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: never invade Russian to winter. I get that went asked 153 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: Napoleon and Hitler and Hitler and the other one. And 154 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: never invade Africa Hindistan period. You know. Now, I think 155 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: we did an absolutely right thing going in and taking 156 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: down the Taliban. Uh. It's it's the occupying part that's 157 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: definitely building. It seems we're not good at that. I 158 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: don't think anybody is. I mean, I think, you know, 159 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: it's hard to see where that has worked out. I 160 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: would say one thing that was but I think it's 161 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: a very unique situation. Is but Arthur's efforts in Japan, yes, 162 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: and ours and UH and the Marshall Plan in Western 163 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: Europe are real models of success. But you know, there 164 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 1: were sophisticated societies. Um, you know, it was they had 165 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: a history of the institutions of government, and they had 166 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: and a very clear, certainly in Western Europe idea about 167 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: governments and republicanism, and you know you had democratic governments 168 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: and then you had fascism and you know, so there's 169 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: there was a history. When you go into what we 170 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: used to call the Third World. You know, you're talking 171 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:44,719 Speaker 1: still today in Afghanistan tribalism, and when we leave, um, 172 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: I mean, there would be not unsurprising to find out 173 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: that everything drifts back into sort of tribal tribal setting, 174 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: which gave special forces a leg up in the confrontation 175 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 1: that your higher tribes, you know, fight other tribes and 176 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 1: that's manageable. But if you decided to say were afterwards decaid, look, 177 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: we're going to convert it into a democratic society. We're 178 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: going to vote on this and these are going to 179 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: be the principles, then immediately you get into fights. There was, Um. 180 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 1: You know, something I wanted to ask you because I 181 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: think people are fairly familiar with the special forces role 182 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: in the Afghan the invasion after nine eleven, but less 183 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 1: people are familiar, I think, with a special forces role 184 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: during your time when we were supplying stingers to the 185 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: Musha Hadeen. I was wondering if you could speak one 186 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: of the things that happened or I mean, and you're 187 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: much more expert on this. The history of the special forces, 188 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: I mean too many. In many ways, OSS during World 189 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 1: War Two was special forces focused, but much of that 190 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: paramilitary effort after the end of World War Two resided 191 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: in c I A. The U. S. Military was still 192 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: largely true national army on army UH. And the way 193 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 1: the CIA handled it certainly up until UM modern times 194 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: being let's say in the nineteen nineties, uh, maybe even 195 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 1: there when we put it in the first of Rock 196 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: War UM, the CIA had a paramilitary division and it 197 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: was usually UH, folks who had served in you know, 198 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 1: special in the Green Berets in Vietnam and and so on. 199 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,959 Speaker 1: And we'd had a skeleton force. And then when something 200 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: would happen and we would ramp it up, we would 201 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: succumb to the UM to the agency a hundred young 202 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: twenty year old just out of training, top notch soldiers 203 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: that could be put into civilian clothes and put into 204 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: the paramilitary setting. But I think when we got into 205 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: such bigger operations, and it became actually a major way 206 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: of fighting wars. And in this century then the military 207 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: shifted very heavily towards special forces, so the CIA retained 208 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: its element. But again I do think it's built largely 209 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: around uh secundating people to it on a short term basis, 210 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: and then keeping the infrastructure. I've used the term erroneously. 211 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: I've been corrected. Sheep dipping is it's not. It's not 212 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: that you're placing them under CIA cover. It's not like 213 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: that that type of thing. There they are being seconded. 214 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: As you say, it's a little bit different. It is. 215 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: But I will just tell you it was fascinating to 216 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: see the soldier assigned to the US with a crew 217 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: cut and three weeks later, well this is let me 218 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: tell you a true story. Actually it was a medic 219 00:14:53,800 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: from the Armed Forces, and again he had tight and um. 220 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: I didn't see him for a couple of months, and 221 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: then I went out to the border of Paka in 222 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: Pakistan and Afghanistan and one of the Moostine fellas came 223 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: over to me beard and they started. It turned out, 224 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: you know, it was dressed like the beard I walked like, 225 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: hadn't showered or a week or whatever, you know. So 226 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: um and in those days, uh, it seemed to me 227 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: that the the soldiers enjoyed that role should be not permanently, 228 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: but I do think they took to it naturally. I mean, 229 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: that's a quintessential special Forces mission that everybody holps they 230 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: get to do. If you know, you wear a green beret, 231 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: that's what you want to dress up like the locals. 232 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: And well, you'll say't been today. People have seen some 233 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: of the modern movies out the clips of our troops 234 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: riding the horses up in them mean really real warriors, 235 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: you know, back to the days of Kinks, Kang, you know, 236 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: but they were really good. One of the things that 237 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: I was thinking of in terms of this tribalism. I 238 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: remember the first time Charlie Wilson and I went out 239 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: to meet with the tribes. And Charlie had been out 240 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: there before and I was new, newly assigned when we 241 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: built a task force, but we had been operating out 242 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: there for almost ten years. And I turned to Charlie 243 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: and I said, jeez, you know, you could cut the 244 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: tension in this room with the knife. I mean, it's uh, 245 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: it's palpable and he said, well, Jackie should have been here. 246 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: Last year we had a disarm each one of the tribes, 247 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: so they didn't go at it. Now there, this is 248 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: our team for our boys. So so, but there's a 249 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: lesson in it. I mean, there are you know and 250 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: again you you all have dealt with the tribal situation 251 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: in real life. But if you go into an environment, 252 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: don't realize that it's tribals. You don't understand the politics 253 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: of the room. And and consequently, if talking about political action, 254 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: you have to realize I have to mobilize and bring 255 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: them into one united group. I mean, look at the 256 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: United States, it's hard to get a consensus even among 257 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 1: people with almost similar background. So what do you I 258 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: mean you said you're not really about nation building in 259 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 1: that sense. I mean, what do you think more of 260 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: people like Jim Gant, the Special Forces officer who said, look, 261 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: we gotta go and engage each tribe independently of one another, 262 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: entreated as a sort of loose confederation of tribal states 263 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: rather than a nation state as we commonly think of it. Well, actually, 264 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: I think that's what our Special Forces CIA people did 265 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: in Afghanistan bringing down to Taliban. They went in, took 266 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: the difference the Morthern Alliance, you know, and it's like 267 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: it worked temporarily anyway, And well, I think it is 268 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: about temporary that's the kase. Then we should be out, 269 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: and then we should be out, And that's what I've 270 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: been saying for a long time. But it's um, you know, 271 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: you have to live with the consequences of getting out. 272 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: You're a lot of political because who lost Afghanistan? Right, Well, 273 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: so our objective was really to get the al Qaeda 274 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: and been Laddin. It wasn't to remake the Taliban because frankly, 275 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: that was not a strategic enemy of the United States. 276 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: It just wasn't all that important to take on to 277 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: have our military there on a permanent No one cared 278 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: about Afghanistan really, So it was to settle the score 279 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: very frankly for nine eleven. And we we as a country, 280 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: certainly wiped out three fourths of the al Qaeda. It's 281 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 1: probably even hired today al Qaeda element that were around 282 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: in the day of the nine eleven So I mean 283 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: retributions there, uh, and ever since we've been running them 284 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: into the ground. Well what do you say then, to 285 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: the critics who would say that in the nineteen eighties 286 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: we supported these mujadine who ended up becoming Islamists, and 287 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: that it spiraled into the Taliban. They ended up hosting 288 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 1: al Qaeda in their country. Are there some possibilities we 289 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: just can't foresee? Or is this the cost of doing 290 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: business and taking down a player like the Soviet Union? Oh? 291 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: I think again. I think you have to think, and 292 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: I think it was a really good common of yours, Jack, 293 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: temporary and perman. You have to decide going in, you know, 294 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 1: Colin Pale, You know when the great generals saying, look, strategy, 295 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: you ever have an next it? But you're gonna own 296 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: this thing. You know, you broke it your body, so 297 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: you have to have a day after. And there's one 298 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: of the troubles today. Not to get off a message here, 299 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: but you know there's a school of thought. It's peering 300 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: in the newspaper and we need to give a run 301 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: in North Korea. Bloody knows, get their attention now. The 302 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: only thing I can say these are people never been 303 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 1: in a fight. I mean, you get somebody to face 304 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: your bloody knows, you better have thought about what's the 305 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: next move? You know, what help does this end? You know. 306 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 1: So I'm not a big proponent of you know, I 307 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: think you have to have a full game, man when 308 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 1: you go into these things. So let me dissect a 309 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: little bit the afghan experience, because that criticism does certainly 310 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: come out. But you know, Afghanistan was deeply fundamentalist in 311 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: the Islamic world before and after after we were we 312 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: were there. Um, what's really important for people understand is 313 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: the US support to Mostine did not involve the Arabs. 314 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: There was There wasn't any of the Saudies. It wasn't 315 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 1: any of the al Qaeda. Alright, Charlie Wilson's war will 316 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: give you like a different prob Yeah, I will tell 317 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:44,919 Speaker 1: you that the the there was For example, in Ben 318 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: Laddin's case, there's no documented indications that we ever received 319 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: anything from it. And I talked to mill Bardens, you 320 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 1: know well identified as and have written a book on 321 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: the subject as well, that there might have been two 322 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,439 Speaker 1: reports of some minor event that he was involved in. 323 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: He was nobody in a truck or something. Well, I 324 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:07,439 Speaker 1: don't know if it was that. I don't want to 325 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to speak authoritatively, but it 326 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: was not a major thing. You compared it to the 327 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: he wasn't alying to the men's are you thinking of him? 328 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: Was sued and now there's a real warrior. So what 329 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 1: his involvement was at the margins? People don't realize that 330 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: even and this is again in the public domain. Half 331 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 1: of the funding for this operation came from Saudi Arabia. 332 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 1: So the United States and Saudi Arabia contributed to the 333 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: equally to the funding of the of the operation. But 334 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: the there was independent funding from the Arab States through 335 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: Arab fighters. Okay, So the Mujadine were Afghans, and I 336 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:57,719 Speaker 1: don't remember dealing with and certainly any reporting saying that 337 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: we were supporting Arab fighters. So this is a So 338 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 1: this is a big distinction. Even when you get to 339 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 1: the Taliban. The Taliban wasn't you know, specifically targeting against 340 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 1: the United States. They're foolish effort. It is because of 341 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: a marital relationship. As I remember, there were a safe 342 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: haven for for Blan, but Ben Laddin left afghanistands after 343 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 1: the rushers and he went to the Sudan. So he 344 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: came back only if it was driven out. So when 345 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union left, when it fell apart, al Qaeda, 346 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 1: the terrorist group, so it was not there. So it's 347 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 1: hard to draw a direct line and say, oh, the 348 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: US government created this, but I do think um, and 349 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: this is where again the bloody knows that you need 350 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: to think about to degree that it's humanly possible unintended consequences, 351 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: to know the future, and you have to decide, well, 352 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: are we going to stay and are we going to 353 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: make it a democratic country. So we made a different 354 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: decision this time. And as I said at the beginning, 355 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: I wanted to make the same kind of decision that's 356 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: been made in Afghanistan to build the nation building. But 357 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: after about fifteen years of reflecting, looking back after Charlie 358 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,919 Speaker 1: Wilson and I were wrong, that it was right to 359 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: get out and move on to other targets and then 360 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: be prepared with the flexible special forces and they come 361 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: back if need be. We actually said that on the 362 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 1: last show. How it's courageous to come out there and say, yes, 363 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: I was wrong, but it's gonna be a hard thing 364 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 1: to say when people's lives are at stake. Well, I 365 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: think that's one of the difficulties of talking about anything 366 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 1: that relates to Afghanistan. And I rock today. It's not 367 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,239 Speaker 1: just that their lives are a stake and many other 368 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: places where we don't be up special for us, but 369 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: it's also all of those that have paid such a 370 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: dear price for UM, you know, for running down al 371 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 1: Qaeda and for UM beading down to the Palaban. I 372 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: mean there there is a real loss in human life, 373 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: and there's been real loss of UH treasure, treasure. So 374 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: when one evaluates, there's an old adage, you know you 375 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,479 Speaker 1: either learn from history, you know you don't. We're going 376 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:21,199 Speaker 1: to repeat it and UM and I think everyone reads it, 377 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: but it doesn't apply to mayor it doesn't apply in 378 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: this case. And I worry that some of the lessons 379 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: that we've learned more recently in Afghanistan and Iraq, we 380 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: may we may not be paying full attention to those 381 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: as we decide what we're going to do in North 382 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: Korea and the UH in Iran. I hope that you're 383 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: all enjoying this interview with Jack. Divine loved having Jack 384 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 1: in studio, But UM just wanted to tell all of 385 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: you about Bio Wave, who is new to the show, 386 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: and they're great. Wouldn't it be great to feel pain 387 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 1: free like you used to feel. Biowave is the non 388 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: opioid effective way to block chronic or acute pain at 389 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: the push of a button. V v A recognized v 390 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: A prescribed, f DA cleared and made in America. 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Well, I was 409 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: wondering if I could just draw you back a little 410 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: bit in um because you headed up the director of Operations, 411 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: you're probably uniquely qualified to comment on this. The c 412 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: I a there at that time global fight against what 413 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: I guess we could call international communism all across the world. 414 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: And and I was wondering if you co comment on 415 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: the strategy and how these different programs fit together in 416 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 1: part of a strategy, if that's something you could talk about. 417 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting because I'm writing to it now 418 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 1: and maybe really so, maybe we'll get to this the 419 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 1: next year or whatever, God willing. But I mean, when 420 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 1: you go back to the roots of the struggle, uh, 421 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: you know with the Communists, remember they were ally in 422 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: World War Two. I mean we literally fought side by 423 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: I was supplied Russia. Lust I think that my last 424 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: recollection is eleven million people. It's like fifty divisions of soldiers. 425 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:13,239 Speaker 1: It's unreal, it's it's it's an incredible amount. And the 426 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,640 Speaker 1: fact that they would keep the Germans engaged in the east, 427 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 1: allowed us to pound the way on on the western side. 428 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: Having said that once once there was out of the way, 429 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: and look that one was a small percentage of American 430 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: population may have been hoodwinked by, but most most of 431 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: the people in the know understood that. You know, this 432 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: was not an idealistic, reform democratic group, but we did 433 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 1: look the other way on a lot of things they 434 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: were doing, including in the espionage areas. I'm going back 435 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: and reading history, um, and this is something that some 436 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 1: of your readers may I've read about. But you know, 437 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:02,120 Speaker 1: Whitty Grew Chambers was a communist in the United States, um, 438 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 1: and a really top end journalist. But he switched signs 439 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,120 Speaker 1: and reported it to the I think was Assistant Secretary 440 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 1: of State at the time. I wrote a memo about 441 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: Wittiger Chambers identifying other spies and they ignored it. And 442 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: this was in the end, near the end of the 443 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: World War two, because they ignored it because the Russians 444 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: were ally okay. So, um, there was an intent to 445 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: try and get along with Russia during that period. Now, 446 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: General Patton, who I think you know has carved his 447 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: own place in history, was anti communist starting in nineteen 448 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: forty or maybe even he was born, so he was 449 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: early on it. But finally in forty seven, Winston Churchill 450 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: makes the famous Iron Curtain and the Berlin Wall goes up. 451 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: In the sixty one I believe it's later, but later, 452 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: But what happens is there's also the famous long letter 453 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: written by George Kennan, and he was in the embassy 454 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: in Moscow at the time, and it talked about the 455 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: need for a containment strategy and people have been fighting 456 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: over this ever since. And that was Harry Truman, who 457 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: was president, was the first president to really put on 458 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: breass knuckles to deal with the Russians, because by forty 459 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: seven it was clear they were in for a territorial 460 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: grab and we were going to go to the tow. 461 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: So the strategy was basically the contain Russia everywhere or 462 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: every every place, and it actually worked us. I mean 463 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: part of what we were doing and the things I 464 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: was involved then, I mean, in many ways, the Afcan 465 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: War was not. I mean, we drove them out, but 466 00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: it's hard to find anybody that I knew then that 467 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 1: thought we were we're going to drive him out. It 468 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: was to contain them, maybe lock them in, let them 469 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: not take over a country if you can stop it. 470 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: I mean, even actions like the Vietnam War. Well, there 471 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: was all part of that through in the Domino theory 472 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: and russ and I was a young person and it 473 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: all made sense. But I think I would modify, uh, 474 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: some of that today. But when do you think Vietnam 475 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: should have been a little white footprint covert action program 476 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: and not the deployment of tens of thousands of American troops. Well, 477 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: I think, you know, with the advantage of hindsight. Of course, 478 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: you know there's a lot of military oases that served 479 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: and so on. It didn't work out so well, right, 480 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: But I understand how we got in it. It was 481 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: my generation that felt containment. If we lose Vietnam. There 482 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: are others who felt that we didn't do enough. Okay, 483 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: so you're gonna have historians work on it, but you 484 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: do get to My core of view is that the 485 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: locals cannot take the eight to the enemy with what 486 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: we can supply and support material weapons. If they're not 487 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: committed or capable, then I don't think we try to 488 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,239 Speaker 1: force feed them. So then we let them go and 489 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: we move and find another partner, another partners when you 490 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: try and support them. That I would do it forever. 491 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 1: Looking that's what we were doing Afghanistan, That's what I 492 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: would do in other parts of the world. You know, 493 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: you can't make people turn into democracy, can't make them 494 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: be fighters. And this is why these training experiences that 495 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: we've had in a Rock and looks like we've actually 496 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: made some real progress in both the Rock and Afghanistan. 497 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: But certainly for the first ten years we put a 498 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: lot of money in and got very little out of 499 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: it in terms of real combatants. That were because they 500 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: were taking the money because it was a way a 501 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: way of earning money. But when the shots were fired, 502 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 1: they were gone because they didn't believe in it. So 503 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: I think we have to be very cautious when we 504 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: this side. We are going to interfere, interfere. Now I'm 505 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: an interventionist, okay and internationalist interventionist, but I really suggest 506 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: that before you do that, you have really taken a 507 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: set of rules. And this is where the last show 508 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: we talked about, you know, just war, what are the 509 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: conditions and what are the conditions when you support when 510 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: do you get in the war. And I think that 511 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 1: thoughtful process has to go into But part of it 512 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: is what's the prospects of being successful? You know, you're 513 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: really in the theory of just war. You don't take 514 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: on an enemy unless you think there's a good prospect 515 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: of winning. You don't go. You're not going to have 516 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: a more lives loss than you save. Um, well, could 517 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: you could you talk to that a little bit in 518 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: terms of some of these actions, um like Angola, Afghanistan, 519 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: I think went over to the other side. But that aspect, 520 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: or the idea that it's not so much about victory, 521 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: it's about denying the enemy, the Soviets in this case, 522 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: an easy victory. Well, I think that's I think that's 523 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: true today. I mean, if if I looked at whenever, 524 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be careful. We don't jump ahead. I think 525 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: we're headed to Cold War two. Really well, I think 526 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: we keep if we keep on the path we are today. 527 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: When I say we, I'm talking in Russia, United States 528 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: and frankly, uh, you know, not being um well, I 529 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: am stunchly pro American. But what I'm going to say is, 530 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: no matter how I cut it, I mean I see 531 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: the culprit on this one largely in the hands of 532 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 1: the Russians from the nature of the relationship. I mean, 533 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: mingling in our political process is a new ball game, 534 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: and that's got to be straightened out or we are 535 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: going to be counterpunching and that then leads to more 536 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: and so you know, you can drift into adversarial relationships. 537 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 1: Is it a new ball game? Because you know, we've 538 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: had people on the show before who have said we 539 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: interfere with elections all the time. I mean you have 540 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 1: the background to know is that means that's true. They'll 541 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: say that the problem was being lived when you have 542 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: a microphone and maybe I fit in this catti. Right. Look, uh, 543 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: I clearly was involved in interventions, right, But there was 544 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: what I described as the Moscow rules. Now, if you 545 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 1: get five Russian KGB guys and five of the CIA 546 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: k U CIA people, you know they make them up 547 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: with a different set, all right, But the general principle 548 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: was we're going to play within certain parameters in this 549 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: game or we'll get out of hand. So we weren't 550 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 1: kidnapping Russians, they weren't kidnapping us. We were not h 551 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 1: counterfeiting their money. They were in counterfeiting ours. Because the 552 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 1: economic stability of the world would be impacted upon it. 553 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: I can think of no case after the say the 554 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties where we interfered into the internal process of 555 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: the democratic process in in the Soviet Union. In the 556 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: United States, there was the Communist Party, right, but this 557 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,320 Speaker 1: was sort of something that was had its roots and 558 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,479 Speaker 1: what was in our country we allowed to be part 559 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 1: of a legitimate democratic process. Now many of us were suspicious, 560 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,280 Speaker 1: but the head of the Communist Party was a KGB agent. 561 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,240 Speaker 1: But that died a long time ago, right, But where 562 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: someone where you can find the footprint of Russians meddling 563 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,879 Speaker 1: in internal U S elections or we interfered in their 564 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 1: system where the president Nited States science say what they 565 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,360 Speaker 1: call a covert action order saying look, we're going to 566 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 1: go in there and fiddle. I will just tell you 567 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 1: during my van my my long experience to see it's 568 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: not just when I was in charge of worldwide operations, 569 00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 1: but all of my readings of cases in the past, 570 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 1: why we played in the rest of the world hardball. 571 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 1: We were not operating inside each other's countries. We're operating 572 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: to get spies, but we weren't doing covert action it's 573 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: very dangerous for both parties to be involved in that. 574 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: So this is a real different thing today that we're 575 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 1: looking at. We're in the rules. Well, I think the 576 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: rules were broken and now they need to be re established. 577 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: We need to have an understanding. I'm hopeful that the 578 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 1: right people are having this and it's not done in 579 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: the public forum. It's in the back room. How between 580 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: intelligence officers with their leadership supproval saying, look, is this 581 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: how we are going to play this or are we 582 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,360 Speaker 1: going to have some ground rules? And our position should 583 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 1: be you don't medal in u S elections. If you're 584 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: going to medal, then were you need to understand? We're 585 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 1: going to respond? How would you assess modern Russia? And 586 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: I mean do they have an end game or are 587 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 1: they just playing this day today? Well, yeah, it's a 588 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: big question. The first thing is I think people have 589 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,320 Speaker 1: to realize it's a small economy compared to very small 590 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,279 Speaker 1: It doesn't have the force that it had in the 591 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,760 Speaker 1: heyday of this, the Soviet Union and small population growth. 592 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 1: Low population growth dependent on a single product, you know, 593 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: so you know, if as long as it stays under 594 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:34,919 Speaker 1: seventy boer barrel, there there's real limitations there and the 595 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 1: economic condition average Russian is the terraining. But before it 596 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 1: has political impact that has the ty quite a bit. 597 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: So going toe to toe with the United States. I 598 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: mean again it sounds jingoistic here, but you know there's 599 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: no force in you Fellows, in your audience or the 600 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 1: cutting in. No, there's no force in the world that 601 00:37:54,960 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 1: can match US forces. And either it's training capabilities, technical 602 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: war material, amount of budget time. And now we have 603 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: an extremely experienced of armed force has been fighting for 604 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: fifteen years in real combat activities. So when you put that, 605 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: I mean there's no military force Chinese, Russians, take your 606 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 1: pick that can go toe the toe. Now, the nuclear problem, 607 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: it creates a dimension that while you could have a 608 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,360 Speaker 1: nucletar world, we to be even. But on the ground, um, 609 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:37,800 Speaker 1: there's no there's for me, there's no uncertain outcome. Having 610 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 1: said that, we have when we look at the Putin government. Um, 611 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: I was hoping when the wall came down, Actually was 612 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 1: I need to clarify that the wall came down an 613 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: eighty nine, but the Soviet Union didn't fall apart until 614 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: ninety one. I happened to be in Russia two months before, 615 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,320 Speaker 1: and there's no correlation, I would add, But but the 616 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 1: point is I was hoping at that point we would 617 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,840 Speaker 1: there be a real push to bring Russia into the West, 618 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 1: and that's like bring them into the global system. I 619 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: think NATO and I think they rightful belonged to Europe. 620 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I think the Europeans are probably should be 621 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 1: part of that system. And for whatever set of reasons 622 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: or psychological and economic that we didn't that didn't happen. 623 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: That was the thoughts as the big new Brazynski and others, 624 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,720 Speaker 1: at least what they publicly stated, But it didn't happen. Okay, 625 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 1: So I mean there were modest changes, but over time 626 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: as the economy collapsed, you ruther Russians, we're going to 627 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 1: go back through. They don't have a history of democracy, 628 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,840 Speaker 1: I mean these ours and their parliaments, but you know, 629 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 1: their their experience of democracy is very limited. So and 630 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 1: they do have a lot of experience and hardship, which 631 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 1: is important when you think about what can they stand right. 632 00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: But as a consequence, it became about Mother Russia and 633 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: and Putin represents the national interests of Mother Russia and 634 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 1: many of the things that he's doing, whether it's Ukine, 635 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:12,240 Speaker 1: the Crimea um are all rooted and protecting the interest 636 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: of of Russia. There's no communism, there's no ideology here. 637 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,719 Speaker 1: Then that makes it a you know, so they're not 638 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,319 Speaker 1: trying to spread centralized economies in Eastern Europe like they were, 639 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: you know, fifty years ago. But what I do say, 640 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: which is you know, and uh, you know, if you 641 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: were in his shoes, maybe you feel differently about it. 642 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: But you know, they moved into Syria to a great effect. 643 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:37,920 Speaker 1: And other words, they now have a position in the 644 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,160 Speaker 1: Middle East. They have developed a relationship with the Iran 645 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 1: Because of some of the vacuum in in the Middle East, 646 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:50,760 Speaker 1: they moved into Ukraine, Crimea. The pieces on the border 647 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 1: are working well. However, now we're starting to see dabbling 648 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 1: in the elections and other places, and I really question 649 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:05,279 Speaker 1: whether or not h One has to remember Prutin is 650 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:10,320 Speaker 1: a product of Eastern Germany KGB. He wasn't in London 651 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 1: and Paris and Washington. He thinks like Marcus Wolf, the 652 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 1: old East German spy in black colors, and they were 653 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 1: surveilling everyone. And I don't think he was exaggerating in 654 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 1: one and one iota when he said, you know, it 655 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: was a crushing blow the collapse of the Soviet Union, 656 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: or they might not be a communist at heart, but 657 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,880 Speaker 1: but he's also a case here that the service collapsed, 658 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: the whole world that he lived in collapse, so he's 659 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:42,320 Speaker 1: trying to reconstitute it without communism. So now it's this dabbling, 660 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:47,239 Speaker 1: the kind of Cold War dabbling, meddling, you know, and uh, 661 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,720 Speaker 1: you know there's there's science that you know in Europe 662 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,080 Speaker 1: and in Latin America, you know they're dabbling again, and 663 00:41:54,200 --> 00:42:00,920 Speaker 1: uh with Venezuela Mexico some of the election active it's like, 664 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,920 Speaker 1: what what is this? Are we really going to try 665 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: and replicate the Cold War? I've been there. I know 666 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:13,320 Speaker 1: that I've seen this before, and you know it's um 667 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:18,919 Speaker 1: it's a self reinforcing dynamic, so that you know, they 668 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:20,640 Speaker 1: do it, we do it next thing. You know, you're 669 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,840 Speaker 1: going toe to toe everywhere. And if that's what he wants, 670 00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,480 Speaker 1: he better look at the mayor realized he's working off 671 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:31,360 Speaker 1: a very small platform compared to the US. There's a 672 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,800 Speaker 1: writer on the site who said on a previous show 673 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:38,279 Speaker 1: something of the effect of that. The reason that that 674 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,319 Speaker 1: um Russia medaled in the elections had very little to 675 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,320 Speaker 1: do with getting Trump elected and was more about making 676 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,719 Speaker 1: it so that the American public loses faith in the 677 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,759 Speaker 1: electoral system, loses faith in a republican form of democracy. 678 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,600 Speaker 1: I just want to hear your take, because his feeling 679 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,239 Speaker 1: was if Trump gets elected, big deal. We have four 680 00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 1: years at the very most eight years have changed. That's 681 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,640 Speaker 1: not a it's not a big endgame. See. I don't 682 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,680 Speaker 1: think there is a big strategy here. Now. There is 683 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 1: a school of thought that's been well publicized the United 684 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 1: States that he's trying to destabilize the West. If so, 685 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 1: he's not a chess player, He's not even a checkers player, 686 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 1: because if you go back and read history, a destabilized 687 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,320 Speaker 1: Europe is about the last thing that any sensible russition 688 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,279 Speaker 1: wants to wants to see. I'm gonna tell you an 689 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:30,000 Speaker 1: operational story that when I was in Chile, when I 690 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 1: first got there, Um, I moved into the house and 691 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:38,440 Speaker 1: there were cats all over the neighborhood. Why are there 692 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 1: so many cats in this neighborhood? So I go in 693 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 1: the office and then talked to the staff and I said, look, 694 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 1: why are all these cats in this a pekindo area? 695 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:49,520 Speaker 1: Where I am. And they said, wow, that's They all 696 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:51,800 Speaker 1: broke up laughing. Well, that was one of our great ops. 697 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,400 Speaker 1: Last month. We put an ad in the newspaper and 698 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,919 Speaker 1: we said, you know, if you have a straight cat, 699 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 1: bring it to the Russian embassy. Get to pass. So 700 00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,280 Speaker 1: what did every composing to do? He took the cat, 701 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,319 Speaker 1: went the door, knocked in, the door dropped. Then I 702 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 1: was a young kid. I went back to my destiny. 703 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:13,279 Speaker 1: What is going on here? This is not operations, This 704 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:18,200 Speaker 1: is not thoughtful strategic What this do? What is this? 705 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,000 Speaker 1: You know? And this is a problem you see over 706 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,479 Speaker 1: and over again intelligent world. But it's probably also true 707 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,320 Speaker 1: in the armed forces, and that you have a tool 708 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 1: and you're just dying to use it. And I think 709 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:36,320 Speaker 1: there's some degree. You know, Hillary Clinton was annoying put 710 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:38,720 Speaker 1: and they thought, well, I give her a little jab 711 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:40,719 Speaker 1: in the side, you know, we'll just do it. They 712 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,000 Speaker 1: never dreamed. I think that Trump is going to be 713 00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,839 Speaker 1: elected in this thing. It is a small time operation. 714 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,759 Speaker 1: A couple hundred thousand people will come in with statistics 715 00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:54,520 Speaker 1: of held impact that just a little there. I've been 716 00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:56,600 Speaker 1: around big operation. If you really wanted to state in 717 00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,000 Speaker 1: the United States, it's not two hundred thousand. I'm sorry. 718 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:00,840 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, don't go into my office and 719 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:02,759 Speaker 1: say I'm going to destabilize the West and I got 720 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,160 Speaker 1: two hundred thousand dollars to throw it into it. So 721 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 1: what And this goes really to the very beginning of 722 00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:12,520 Speaker 1: our show about not thinking through unintended consequences. So now 723 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,960 Speaker 1: it had no real fact, no state went you know, 724 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: it's like and what you have done is you've extended extensions. 725 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:22,960 Speaker 1: You made it possible to have a president of the 726 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:27,200 Speaker 1: United States say let's sit down and really warm this up, 727 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,400 Speaker 1: even though there was I personally believed that was as 728 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:35,719 Speaker 1: long every day. So their actions is dropping cats in 729 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:40,279 Speaker 1: front of the White House has created a huge problem 730 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,840 Speaker 1: that I think is totally out of sync with a 731 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,239 Speaker 1: strategic mode. I don't know, I'm not sure they can 732 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,719 Speaker 1: see how they get themselves out of it. That they're 733 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:51,879 Speaker 1: in over their head in a sense. Well, I think 734 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:53,960 Speaker 1: they've gotten in and then questions how to get out, 735 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:55,880 Speaker 1: and I think they're getting out is as they said, Oh, 736 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,239 Speaker 1: they'll have to be private discussions. What are the ground 737 00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:02,000 Speaker 1: rules in this new age of social media? And are 738 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,160 Speaker 1: we going to play games? And is that is that? 739 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,040 Speaker 1: Is that what this is all about? Or are we 740 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,919 Speaker 1: going to try and do some you know, smart things 741 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,239 Speaker 1: together and whether we work out arrangements in Iran or 742 00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,920 Speaker 1: Syria and do some heavy lifting, or are we going 743 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,879 Speaker 1: to drop cats all over the place. Did you have 744 00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,800 Speaker 1: any concerns or do you have any concerns about antagonism 745 00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,160 Speaker 1: between the CIA and the Trump administration. I mean a 746 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,319 Speaker 1: lot of noise has been made about that, you know. 747 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:33,400 Speaker 1: I've been asked several times by that. I mean, I 748 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,160 Speaker 1: think people forget it was the first place he visited, 749 00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,880 Speaker 1: and I think that's partly because I think he was 750 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,080 Speaker 1: at the school. I thought that this is an important element. 751 00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:48,520 Speaker 1: You want to send a message um the CIA. People 752 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:54,280 Speaker 1: need to realize it's blessed in this regard. When someone 753 00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,640 Speaker 1: is elected president and if someone's a name the DC, 754 00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,480 Speaker 1: the Director of Central Intelligence, they don't show up at 755 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,120 Speaker 1: CIA with a hundred political pointees. The most I've seen 756 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,799 Speaker 1: is four or five. It will be the General Council's 757 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:10,719 Speaker 1: chief of staff. The CIA is run by career professionals. Now, 758 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:12,280 Speaker 1: I have a lot of time, a lot of respect 759 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 1: for State Department. I know it's getting beaten around the 760 00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:19,560 Speaker 1: years lately. But the difference with state is there are 761 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:23,720 Speaker 1: hundreds of important positions that are filled by political people. 762 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:28,000 Speaker 1: The FBI is very much like the CIA. It's run 763 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,760 Speaker 1: by professionals. So when you talk at the professional cadre, 764 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,520 Speaker 1: what do they want? They want strong leaders to effective leadership. 765 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,120 Speaker 1: Tell me what you want. I'm going to get it done. 766 00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,320 Speaker 1: And if you looked at c I A. I ronestly 767 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,200 Speaker 1: believe you would find it. It's a replica of America's 768 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:49,799 Speaker 1: political orientation, which is republican democrat, right maybe two two 769 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,759 Speaker 1: percent up or down right. So and you don't bring 770 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,319 Speaker 1: it into the office. It's not political, it's unprofessional to 771 00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,799 Speaker 1: bring in your office. So today, um, and I hope 772 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,440 Speaker 1: it's the same that the word rank and file. And 773 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:06,319 Speaker 1: let let me get on with the job. You politicians, 774 00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,480 Speaker 1: you decide what it is you want done. Presidents been elected, 775 00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:11,560 Speaker 1: this is what you want done, We'll get it done. 776 00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:16,480 Speaker 1: I would. I think the problems are now that you 777 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,799 Speaker 1: have sort of politics at the top of some of 778 00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,520 Speaker 1: these agencies, both the FBI and CIA, where you have 779 00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:24,919 Speaker 1: statements back and forth that I don't think you're doing 780 00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:30,680 Speaker 1: anybody any good. I think the heads of those agencies uh, 781 00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:35,120 Speaker 1: you know, need need to stay out of the political 782 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,359 Speaker 1: phray as much as humanly possible. The FBI is going 783 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,800 Speaker 1: to a really rough time, no question about it, UM, 784 00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,080 Speaker 1: And I hope these investigations get over and you can 785 00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:49,280 Speaker 1: get back to the it's it's real missions. But it's 786 00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:51,600 Speaker 1: the morale. I can't think it's very It can't be 787 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:53,880 Speaker 1: very good right now. See I has gone through this 788 00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:58,399 Speaker 1: where it becomes the sort of gets beat up after 789 00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,480 Speaker 1: a covert action operation was wrong even though the political 790 00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:06,480 Speaker 1: forces are signed up to it. So UM, I I 791 00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:10,720 Speaker 1: don't I think it's probably overstated. And it's a difference 792 00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:14,279 Speaker 1: between the workforce and what I would call and the 793 00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:18,680 Speaker 1: most senior management and those we need we need to see, 794 00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,680 Speaker 1: I we need the FBI. Most people aren't in office 795 00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:26,319 Speaker 1: a long time, even when they're anti long for anti military, 796 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,800 Speaker 1: When they come into those jobs, they realize, look, you 797 00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:32,480 Speaker 1: really you want you want this world of function, you 798 00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,799 Speaker 1: really if you're gonna play in this world game with 799 00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:39,319 Speaker 1: other big states, you better have all the tools of 800 00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:44,200 Speaker 1: tradecraft and have a workforce. But politicization is really something 801 00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:51,360 Speaker 1: that um is destructive and actually one of the things interesting. 802 00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,840 Speaker 1: I don't mean the ramble on. I was fascinated on 803 00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,919 Speaker 1: the Afghan program that both Republicans and Democrats were all in. Yeah, 804 00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:03,320 Speaker 1: there was I recommend when you go into combat in 805 00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:07,400 Speaker 1: any shape or form, paramilitary straight on military forces, you 806 00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:10,080 Speaker 1: know that you have a broad's consensus at home. If 807 00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:13,640 Speaker 1: you're fighting and you're politicized on an issue, it then 808 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:18,200 Speaker 1: has all this collateral damage that takes years to put 809 00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:21,160 Speaker 1: the put back together. I know you have a hard 810 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:23,480 Speaker 1: out at forty five after the hour and we're already 811 00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:24,920 Speaker 1: going a little over time. So you just want to 812 00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:26,759 Speaker 1: make sure we get all of Jack's plugs in here 813 00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:29,200 Speaker 1: once again, President of the ark And Group, which you 814 00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:32,040 Speaker 1: could visit at the ark And Group dot com. Jack 815 00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:36,520 Speaker 1: Divine is on Twitter at Jack Divine Underscore t a G. 816 00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:38,839 Speaker 1: I know that you have to get out of here. 817 00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:42,600 Speaker 1: So Jack, do you want a book? Hunting um? So 818 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:46,120 Speaker 1: I was seeing if you have one last question, let's 819 00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,200 Speaker 1: give it your best to be good. It's your best question, alright, 820 00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:52,680 Speaker 1: one one one quick question to get us at What 821 00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:56,440 Speaker 1: do you think that the CIA's appropriate engagement should be 822 00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:59,480 Speaker 1: with the American public? What should be the relationship between 823 00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:03,520 Speaker 1: the s citizen and our Central Intelligence Agency? I mean, 824 00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:06,680 Speaker 1: some people want complete secrecy. I'm sure one of the 825 00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,359 Speaker 1: it's a really great question, and I'll tell you why. 826 00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:12,000 Speaker 1: It's the one that one of the reasons why I 827 00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:18,440 Speaker 1: talked to universities and other places. It's not what's not 828 00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:25,960 Speaker 1: well understood is that um all covert action, as far 829 00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:32,680 Speaker 1: back as I can uh recall or have researched, is 830 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:36,400 Speaker 1: approved by the President United States, and in seventy three 831 00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:43,000 Speaker 1: it was by signature after the Church Commission. The point is, 832 00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:46,600 Speaker 1: the CIA should only be engaged in the action part 833 00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:52,360 Speaker 1: by the political will of this country. So if you 834 00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:57,640 Speaker 1: elected the president, you know, he becomes the driving force 835 00:51:57,719 --> 00:51:59,640 Speaker 1: in this Now you got to get money out of 836 00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:03,280 Speaker 1: kind of and and so on. Many of my colleagues 837 00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:07,080 Speaker 1: hate oversight, you know. And the truth of the matter 838 00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:09,319 Speaker 1: is who wants oversight? You know, who wants to ask 839 00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:12,000 Speaker 1: their parents that you know, whether they can go out 840 00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:15,920 Speaker 1: and use the family car or not. So the point, 841 00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:19,680 Speaker 1: the point that I'm making is I actually believe oversight 842 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,000 Speaker 1: is totally necessary. That you have to be able to 843 00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:26,719 Speaker 1: go down and brief the Congress on your actions and 844 00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:30,000 Speaker 1: get their approval. They represent the will of the people. 845 00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:35,120 Speaker 1: So the CIA's interaction with the America is through its 846 00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:41,320 Speaker 1: will as represented by the process of legislature, executive branch, 847 00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,160 Speaker 1: and mindful of the laws of this country. In the 848 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:48,400 Speaker 1: third third branch, the c I should never be involved 849 00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:52,680 Speaker 1: in domestic operations in the United States involving Americans, unless 850 00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:56,600 Speaker 1: they're either a terrorist or Russian molls or what Chinese 851 00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:00,680 Speaker 1: malls which are popular today. So my point is we 852 00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:04,759 Speaker 1: and the rules are clear that CIA cannot metal in 853 00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:08,879 Speaker 1: the political process the United States and should be put 854 00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:13,000 Speaker 1: on the carpet and disciplined if it ever wanders. As 855 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:18,560 Speaker 1: far as I know that my reading, there are only 856 00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:22,719 Speaker 1: one occasion, and this was the during the James Angleton 857 00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:27,360 Speaker 1: period chaos during the sixties where they crossed the line 858 00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:30,799 Speaker 1: is recognized. I know of no other case. And then 859 00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:34,880 Speaker 1: the only other cases where some CIA officers worked offline 860 00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:38,200 Speaker 1: with the White House, but that was not the CIA 861 00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:42,000 Speaker 1: where they did not They did not stay within the 862 00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:48,120 Speaker 1: confines of not meddling in domestic politics or working off 863 00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:53,319 Speaker 1: of a political agenda. So the lines and now the 864 00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,680 Speaker 1: lines on the FBI is quite different. Their job is 865 00:53:56,719 --> 00:54:01,080 Speaker 1: to protect us internally. So uh, my view as to 866 00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:04,680 Speaker 1: see it needs to look outward and I have the 867 00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:07,080 Speaker 1: full support of the American people. If you don't have 868 00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:10,320 Speaker 1: the support, then you probably shouldn't you know not probably 869 00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:13,560 Speaker 1: let me correct that you shouldn't be doing it, you know, 870 00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:20,480 Speaker 1: so said jack We uh just barely scratched the surface. Uh. 871 00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:22,239 Speaker 1: And I hope we can talk you into coming in 872 00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,600 Speaker 1: again sometime. Well the other it worked well last time 873 00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:29,000 Speaker 1: you called me to mean I want to come down, 874 00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:32,600 Speaker 1: you don't listen. I went down and see who these guys, 875 00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:35,880 Speaker 1: cool guys are on the other so I went up, 876 00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:37,600 Speaker 1: come down. But you know, we can handle a lot 877 00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:39,520 Speaker 1: of times it is I mean, it's a bit of 878 00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,920 Speaker 1: an encumberss and down and back, and it's like some 879 00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,400 Speaker 1: days it works and some days it doesn't. But I 880 00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:49,040 Speaker 1: do think you're doing a probably important not me, but 881 00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,680 Speaker 1: an important service out there for people listening. And thanks 882 00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:55,399 Speaker 1: again for coming in. Okay, so keep up the good 883 00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:59,879 Speaker 1: work much. We really enjoyed having Jackie's studio a lot 884 00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:03,520 Speaker 1: uh covered in this hour of SOFTWAUP Radio. As a 885 00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:05,759 Speaker 1: reminder for all of those who are listening, for a 886 00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:09,960 Speaker 1: limited time, you can receive a fifty percent discounted membership 887 00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:13,680 Speaker 1: to soft Rep TV, our channel that offers the most 888 00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:19,120 Speaker 1: exclusive shows, documentaries and interviews covering the most exciting military 889 00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:23,320 Speaker 1: content today. Soft Rep TVs premier show, Training Cell follows 890 00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:27,760 Speaker 1: former Special Operations forces as they participate in the most 891 00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:32,240 Speaker 1: advanced training in the country, everything from shooting schools, defensive driving, 892 00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:36,440 Speaker 1: jungle and winter warfare, climbing, and much more. 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That's great Club dot 910 00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:35,480 Speaker 1: us for those listening um. As we put this up, 911 00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:39,200 Speaker 1: we'll be back on Friday with a brand new episode. 912 00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,320 Speaker 1: As always, leave a review on Apple Podcasts that really 913 00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,920 Speaker 1: helps us out. Follow us at soft Rep Radio, and 914 00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:49,759 Speaker 1: we're out. You've been listening to self rep Radio. New 915 00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:53,239 Speaker 1: episodes up every Wednesday and Friday for all of the 916 00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:57,040 Speaker 1: great content from our veteran journalists. 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