WEBVTT - Political Demonization is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:22.916 Bushkin, I'm may have Higgins and this is Solvable Interviews 0:00:22.956 --> 0:00:26.036 with the world's most innovative thinkers who are working to 0:00:26.196 --> 0:00:29.996 solve the world's biggest problems. And this is one episode 0:00:30.036 --> 0:00:32.556 I have been dying to have a listen to. We 0:00:32.716 --> 0:00:37.556 visited Switzerland for this fabulously insightful exchange between Anne Applebaum 0:00:37.556 --> 0:00:40.716 and Flavia Kleiner. Flavia is a twenty eight year old 0:00:40.716 --> 0:00:45.636 history student at the forefront of fighting right wing populism. 0:00:45.676 --> 0:00:49.236 Here's a situation in Switzerland. For more than twenty years, 0:00:49.236 --> 0:00:52.076 the country has been something of a laboratory for right 0:00:52.116 --> 0:00:56.916 wing populism. The right wing Swiss People's Party has successfully 0:00:57.036 --> 0:01:01.556 used referenda as a marketing tool for creating anti immigrant, 0:01:01.716 --> 0:01:06.276 anti EU policies. They have become the largest political force 0:01:06.356 --> 0:01:10.556 in Switzerland. Meanwhile, according to a twenty seventeen study, the 0:01:10.676 --> 0:01:14.196 number of racist incidents in Switzerland has never been higher. 0:01:14.636 --> 0:01:19.196 Flavia Kleiner has a solvable. She co founded Operation Liberal 0:01:19.356 --> 0:01:23.676 to promote a patriotic liberal political platform to directly fight 0:01:23.796 --> 0:01:29.396 back against populism. My solvable is to build a political 0:01:29.476 --> 0:01:32.956 home for people who want to defend our liberal order 0:01:33.236 --> 0:01:37.676 against writing populists in Switzerland as well as in other countries. 0:01:37.956 --> 0:01:41.596 People who are patriots as I am, and people who 0:01:41.596 --> 0:01:45.956 are cheek enough to deal with the nasty writing populists. 0:01:46.796 --> 0:01:49.796 Populist parties have tripled their vote in Europe over the 0:01:49.836 --> 0:01:53.476 past twenty years. More than a quarter of Europeans voted 0:01:53.556 --> 0:01:56.916 populists in their most recent elections, and they're even in 0:01:57.036 --> 0:02:01.156 government in eleven countries. They've been recently re elected in 0:02:01.196 --> 0:02:05.796 Australia and in the world's largest democracy, India. Why does 0:02:05.796 --> 0:02:10.276 this matter Well, Populists tend to frame politics as a 0:02:10.316 --> 0:02:15.236 battle between the virtuous ordinary masses and a corrupt elite. 0:02:15.676 --> 0:02:19.276 They insist that the will of the people must always triumph. 0:02:19.516 --> 0:02:23.076 Of course, that can be just the framing. In reality, 0:02:23.116 --> 0:02:28.276 Often populous target poor people, foreigners, women, religious groups, anybody 0:02:28.276 --> 0:02:31.276 they have a problem with. Populace then use this us 0:02:31.316 --> 0:02:35.916 against them, framing to their advantage and cause real divisions 0:02:35.956 --> 0:02:39.836 that make it harder to unify for global goals, from 0:02:39.956 --> 0:02:44.436 fighting poverty, famine and disease to banding together to face 0:02:44.676 --> 0:02:49.636 climate chaos. In American history, populous movements have regularly sprung 0:02:49.716 --> 0:02:52.396 up on both the left and the right, and they're 0:02:52.436 --> 0:02:56.516 thriving today. But back to Switzerland and our guest for 0:02:56.556 --> 0:02:59.956 this episode. It's thrilling to hear how Flavia took on 0:03:00.036 --> 0:03:04.156 the Swiss right wing machinery to take patriotism and Swiss 0:03:04.196 --> 0:03:08.276 pride those are usually used as a weapon against immigrants 0:03:08.316 --> 0:03:11.916 and argue us for a more progressive country. And she's 0:03:11.996 --> 0:03:17.716 winning too. Flavia's levity and optimism are not at all pollyannaish. 0:03:18.156 --> 0:03:20.356 She can back up her theories now in the number 0:03:20.356 --> 0:03:24.756 of victories under her belt. Flavia is making concrete changes. 0:03:24.836 --> 0:03:27.996 So listen out for her advice around social media and 0:03:28.116 --> 0:03:32.156 framing and language. Okay, so let's take a listen to 0:03:32.196 --> 0:03:42.436 Anne and Flavia and I'll see you on the other side. Flay, 0:03:42.556 --> 0:03:46.836 you a few years ago identified what you felt to 0:03:46.916 --> 0:03:50.956 be a very deep problem in your country. Can you 0:03:50.996 --> 0:03:54.596 describe what it is and how did you first recognize it? 0:03:55.196 --> 0:03:59.156 So actually goes back to well by Data Firth. Nearly 0:03:59.236 --> 0:04:02.356 it was a ninety two there was a vote on 0:04:02.476 --> 0:04:07.156 Switzerland joining or not joining European Commercial Area or economic 0:04:07.356 --> 0:04:11.596 European Economic Area. The EA and the Swiss refused that, 0:04:12.276 --> 0:04:16.596 and that was actually the starting point of incredible career 0:04:16.876 --> 0:04:20.996 of a party called the Swiss People's Party here, which 0:04:21.316 --> 0:04:24.796 is which happened to turn from a really conservative party 0:04:25.196 --> 0:04:30.356 into a rather writing populist party as well. And Christophe Blojo, 0:04:30.516 --> 0:04:35.196 he is the leader, the well known personality of this party. 0:04:35.316 --> 0:04:38.916 There's a saying that he has tailor made suits but 0:04:39.036 --> 0:04:41.676 which actually don't really fit on the shoulder, so he 0:04:41.716 --> 0:04:44.636 would pretend to be one of you know, the people, 0:04:44.876 --> 0:04:47.516 but actually he's a billionaire. He's super rich, one of 0:04:47.516 --> 0:04:50.596 the richest people in Switzerland. He runs this party and 0:04:50.716 --> 0:04:54.676 he finances this party mostly and so that was basically 0:04:54.716 --> 0:04:58.436 the start of this career of the party. So the 0:04:58.556 --> 0:05:02.276 problem you identified is the problem of Swiss populism. You 0:05:02.396 --> 0:05:05.396 identified a particular event and it was the referendum on 0:05:05.476 --> 0:05:09.476 mass migration. Can you explain what's the significance of randoms 0:05:09.516 --> 0:05:12.076 in Switzerland and why this one in particular affected you. 0:05:12.276 --> 0:05:16.956 The SPALPE came up with what we call a popular initiative, 0:05:17.236 --> 0:05:21.716 which is a direct democratic proposal to the Swiss people 0:05:21.996 --> 0:05:25.196 that we vote on and it means that you need 0:05:25.316 --> 0:05:30.756 to collect one hundred thousand signatures on a specific legal text, 0:05:31.236 --> 0:05:35.596 which then, if it is accepted, is being introduced into 0:05:35.796 --> 0:05:38.996 our constitution. So it's such just some law. You know, 0:05:39.156 --> 0:05:43.636 it's changing our constitution. So the writing populists as well 0:05:43.676 --> 0:05:48.036 as other parties misuse this tool today as a marketing 0:05:48.076 --> 0:05:51.596 tool for their issues. They come up with this just 0:05:51.756 --> 0:05:55.516 right before election so they can campaign on a specific issue. 0:05:55.756 --> 0:05:58.836 But the originally this right was given to minorities which 0:05:58.836 --> 0:06:02.756 would never be represented in Parliament, and through this initiative 0:06:02.836 --> 0:06:06.076 they could introduce law and come up with issues which 0:06:06.116 --> 0:06:09.716 matter to them. And so that particular event was in 0:06:09.876 --> 0:06:13.116 February twenty fourteen, but we voted on the so called 0:06:13.156 --> 0:06:17.036 mass immigration initiative. Already from the name, you can see 0:06:17.076 --> 0:06:20.596 that it comes up. It brings up a certain framing 0:06:20.996 --> 0:06:24.676 and the ESPAPE wanted to limit the number of people 0:06:24.756 --> 0:06:29.316 coming to Switzerland in the free movement of People agreement 0:06:29.516 --> 0:06:33.036 that we have with the European Union. Switzerland is not 0:06:33.116 --> 0:06:35.396 a member of the European Union, but we have bilateral 0:06:35.436 --> 0:06:38.276 treaties and the asphape is that there's just too many 0:06:38.276 --> 0:06:42.316 people coming to Switzerland every year. And they won, yeah, 0:06:42.556 --> 0:06:45.436 by a really close marching of fifty point three percent. 0:06:45.556 --> 0:06:48.436 It was only twenty thousand votes which made the difference. 0:06:48.556 --> 0:06:50.956 And so you said to yourself, how do we stop this, 0:06:51.116 --> 0:06:53.276 and then you went through a process of trying to think, 0:06:53.596 --> 0:06:56.116 how do we push back against this kind of language. Yeah, 0:06:56.156 --> 0:06:59.476 the thing was, we didn't actually recognize ourselves in the 0:06:59.516 --> 0:07:02.596 country that we grew up in because we saw Switzerland 0:07:02.596 --> 0:07:07.996 as a cosmopol international country, open and so on, and 0:07:08.356 --> 0:07:10.996 nobody really expected this to happen. It was like our 0:07:11.116 --> 0:07:13.756 Brexit moment. You know what, we said, Okay, that's not 0:07:13.796 --> 0:07:15.756 the country that we want to live in. We want 0:07:15.756 --> 0:07:17.916 to change this. We want to have a brighter future 0:07:18.196 --> 0:07:20.916 and a brighter vision for what twitterland it can be. 0:07:21.436 --> 0:07:25.476 But the populist argument had already infected all the other parties. 0:07:25.476 --> 0:07:28.396 In other words, everybody began saying and so it's on, Well, actually, 0:07:28.476 --> 0:07:30.396 maybe it's true, maybe there are too many people here, 0:07:30.476 --> 0:07:34.036 Maybe we need stronger borders, maybe we need greater sovereignty. 0:07:34.196 --> 0:07:36.236 So how do you how do you push back against 0:07:36.236 --> 0:07:39.556 that kind of you know, this change of social mood. Basically, 0:07:39.596 --> 0:07:42.876 what we saw is that we want to promote Switzerland 0:07:43.196 --> 0:07:45.996 regarding to the future. We said, Switzerland is the land 0:07:45.996 --> 0:07:49.036 of opportunity of the twenty first century. We're not a 0:07:49.196 --> 0:07:52.636 kind of open air museum where nothing should ever change 0:07:52.716 --> 0:07:54.516 and that's also the country we want to live in 0:07:54.516 --> 0:07:56.876 in two thousand and fifty. We're actually looking forward to 0:07:56.916 --> 0:07:59.956 the r two thousand and fifty. So you began reframing 0:07:59.956 --> 0:08:03.036 the conversation. But actually you said to me earlier you 0:08:03.036 --> 0:08:05.676 you thought first about creating a political party, and then 0:08:05.676 --> 0:08:07.796 you decided that wasn't the way to go, right. So 0:08:07.876 --> 0:08:10.236 for us, I mean, of course, we were super disappointed 0:08:10.236 --> 0:08:13.036 about all the other parties. We just overtook the narration 0:08:13.116 --> 0:08:15.436 of the SPA pay of there are too many people 0:08:15.436 --> 0:08:19.036 in our trains, there are too many people renting apartments here. 0:08:19.276 --> 0:08:21.916 First we thought, okay, we have to just make a 0:08:21.916 --> 0:08:25.116 new party, because we don't we cannot identify with any 0:08:25.156 --> 0:08:27.916 other we don't have a political home. But then we 0:08:28.036 --> 0:08:30.356 realized that in the Swiss political system it doesn't really 0:08:30.396 --> 0:08:32.516 make sense to create a new party. But instead we 0:08:32.636 --> 0:08:39.116 decided to create an overpartisan movement, which actually goes against 0:08:39.156 --> 0:08:43.596 this tendency of polarization. But we wanted to unite the 0:08:43.836 --> 0:08:47.916 progressive liberal minds in this country, and also we wanted 0:08:47.956 --> 0:08:51.076 to link us somehow back to the tradition of eighteen 0:08:51.156 --> 0:08:54.556 forty eight, which was the foundation of the liberal stat 0:08:54.596 --> 0:08:59.196 of Switzerland. And we introduced ourselves with our manifesto as 0:08:59.236 --> 0:09:02.276 the children of eighteen forty eight, so trying to link 0:09:02.556 --> 0:09:04.956 these liberal ideas back to the past. So they're party 0:09:04.956 --> 0:09:06.876 of Swiss history, and they don't seem like some kind 0:09:06.876 --> 0:09:09.716 of foreign import. No. Absolutely, and even more, it was 0:09:09.716 --> 0:09:14.196 a really patriotic but emancipated, patriotic understanding of where we 0:09:14.236 --> 0:09:17.356 come from. The founding fathers of our country were the 0:09:17.436 --> 0:09:21.276 Liberals in eighteen forty eight, and we totally identify with 0:09:21.756 --> 0:09:25.516 their mindset of what it means to be a modern Switzerland. 0:09:25.596 --> 0:09:28.596 But then, how did you actually change people's minds? How 0:09:28.596 --> 0:09:31.156 did you begin arguing this? I mean, you're a group 0:09:31.196 --> 0:09:35.356 of students at the university. You know what were actually 0:09:35.356 --> 0:09:37.796 the tools that you used? Now I jumped forward to 0:09:38.396 --> 0:09:42.276 October twenty fifteen, That was like one and a half 0:09:42.356 --> 0:09:45.716 year after the whole thing happened, and we launched our organization, 0:09:45.796 --> 0:09:49.636 our movement. We had elections in Switzerland in two fifteen, 0:09:49.876 --> 0:09:52.876 and that was a moment where again the SFLP, the 0:09:52.956 --> 0:09:56.916 writing puppetists, became the strongest party in Switzerland with twenty 0:09:56.956 --> 0:10:01.356 nine percent, okay, twenty nine percent of our parliament. And 0:10:01.396 --> 0:10:03.916 so again the other party said, oh, come on, which 0:10:03.996 --> 0:10:07.396 is we can't you know, we have nothing to help 0:10:07.516 --> 0:10:11.756 us against the Superstruc party. And then only one month 0:10:11.796 --> 0:10:16.356 after the government said okay, guys, in three months time, 0:10:16.516 --> 0:10:20.196 we're going to vote on the so called expulsion of 0:10:20.236 --> 0:10:23.876 criminal foreigners initiative. That was an initiative which wanted to 0:10:23.916 --> 0:10:28.116 expel criminal foreigners even for minor infrictions of law, for 0:10:28.196 --> 0:10:32.476 example driving two times too fast within ten years, which 0:10:32.676 --> 0:10:35.356 actually happens to everyone, you know. The other party said, 0:10:35.396 --> 0:10:39.276 oh no, come on, this is again about criminals and 0:10:39.316 --> 0:10:43.796 then foreigners, and it's driven by the Svapai is popular initiative. 0:10:44.116 --> 0:10:47.476 We have no chance. Rather we hide and let it 0:10:47.596 --> 0:10:50.516 just pass instead of you know, losing again energy and 0:10:50.596 --> 0:10:53.356 time and any way, we just lost the elections. That 0:10:53.556 --> 0:10:55.836 was a moment where we somehow came up and said, okay, 0:10:56.396 --> 0:10:58.356 we don't want to live in a country where there's 0:10:58.396 --> 0:11:01.236 a kind of too tire legal system. You have to 0:11:01.316 --> 0:11:04.476 know that in Switzerland, twenty five percent of the population 0:11:04.636 --> 0:11:08.156 don't have a Swiss passport. They might live here for generations. 0:11:08.476 --> 0:11:10.476 They don't have a genuine link to the country that 0:11:10.596 --> 0:11:14.276 they come from, but they would have been maybe victims 0:11:14.396 --> 0:11:18.276 of that new law introduced into our constitution. So that 0:11:18.436 --> 0:11:20.716 was a moment where we somehow stood up and said, Okay, 0:11:21.636 --> 0:11:24.516 we don't We're definitely not gonna make the gift to 0:11:24.636 --> 0:11:28.796 the writing populace and defend criminal foreigners because then you 0:11:28.836 --> 0:11:32.356 would anyway lose. So we realized that if we want 0:11:32.396 --> 0:11:36.596 to convince the conservative majority in Switzerland, we need to 0:11:36.676 --> 0:11:40.036 speak about something that matters to them as well, because 0:11:40.036 --> 0:11:43.596 it's so super easy what the writing populace wanted to do. 0:11:43.756 --> 0:11:45.796 They wanted to ask the people and take, guys, this 0:11:46.036 --> 0:11:48.996 is your chance to expel criminal foreigners from that country. 0:11:49.516 --> 0:11:51.196 Why don't you just say yes? And who's going to 0:11:51.236 --> 0:11:53.916 disagree with? All right? And so we said instead, guys, 0:11:54.396 --> 0:11:58.716 this is actually going against the fundamental principles of our constitution, 0:11:59.076 --> 0:12:03.516 against rule of law, against principle of proportionality, which is 0:12:03.556 --> 0:12:06.916 super important to judges, because actually this law wanted to 0:12:07.636 --> 0:12:11.796 limit and restrict the ability ability of judges to actually 0:12:11.876 --> 0:12:15.596 look at the individual case and instead introduce a kind 0:12:15.596 --> 0:12:19.036 of automatism to our legal system. I think that was 0:12:19.116 --> 0:12:23.756 crucial because we decided that we somehow want to conquer 0:12:24.196 --> 0:12:28.916 the sovereignty of interpretation from the Writing Populists over their 0:12:28.996 --> 0:12:32.196 initiative through this, and that was actually the biggest compliment 0:12:32.276 --> 0:12:35.156 that the party leader of the Writing Populists made me 0:12:35.596 --> 0:12:38.236 was when he said after the election, after the whole campaign, 0:12:38.276 --> 0:12:40.516 he said, I didn't know what happened, but at sometimes, 0:12:40.676 --> 0:12:42.756 at some point we only spoke about rule of law, 0:12:42.876 --> 0:12:45.876 and that was actually framing big success right that we had. 0:12:46.116 --> 0:12:49.036 So you reframed the idea. But then what were the 0:12:49.116 --> 0:12:52.196 tactics that you used. The most important tactics, I think 0:12:52.316 --> 0:12:55.316 is really to find a popular language to what I 0:12:55.476 --> 0:13:00.116 just described, which seems really abstract of course argument, we 0:13:00.276 --> 0:13:04.876 managed to translate it into a narrative, something tangible to people. 0:13:05.236 --> 0:13:08.236 And what we did is actually we spoke about Mother Helvetia. 0:13:08.436 --> 0:13:11.996 She's like gegorical figure which represents all these Swiss values 0:13:12.076 --> 0:13:14.036 you find you find there on our coins and so on, 0:13:14.596 --> 0:13:18.196 and this Swiss referred to her. She's the emancipated figure 0:13:18.276 --> 0:13:22.036 which represents the values of eighteen forty eight, so the 0:13:22.196 --> 0:13:26.556 liberal institutions, and we said she would be smashed by 0:13:26.756 --> 0:13:32.156 what we translated as a metaphor at this initiative, she 0:13:32.236 --> 0:13:35.196 will be smashed by a wrecking ball. This statue of 0:13:35.436 --> 0:13:38.916 modern healthbates that will be wrecked. And you did memes 0:13:38.956 --> 0:13:42.436 of that, yeah, exactly, and the video and so on afterwards. 0:13:42.596 --> 0:13:45.596 That's a special group or entity of volunteers we have. 0:13:45.756 --> 0:13:50.036 They're called online warriors. They basically are really active on 0:13:50.196 --> 0:13:54.636 social media and they're basically fighting back trolls and like 0:13:54.836 --> 0:13:58.276 fake news which are spread online. They actually go there 0:13:58.356 --> 0:14:01.636 and engage the trolls into a debate, and they do 0:14:01.756 --> 0:14:06.036 it under their personal private account as citizens online with 0:14:06.196 --> 0:14:08.996 their real names, right, they debate there and what we 0:14:09.196 --> 0:14:12.276 see actually and that's the fantastic effect of it, that 0:14:12.436 --> 0:14:16.196 we can actually change debates online and that we can 0:14:16.356 --> 0:14:19.876 effect also the level of you know, factfulness and so on. 0:14:19.996 --> 0:14:22.836 So that's a really that's a really important change that 0:14:22.916 --> 0:14:25.276 we can see. I really think you can be popular 0:14:25.356 --> 0:14:29.436 without being populistic, you know, and you can actually you 0:14:29.556 --> 0:14:32.156 need to find ways in this media society that we 0:14:32.236 --> 0:14:35.116 live in. You need to find ways to say things easier. 0:14:35.356 --> 0:14:38.116 To give you another example, if we can pain we 0:14:38.316 --> 0:14:40.916 don't need to go to the noyetichal Titung, which is 0:14:40.956 --> 0:14:45.636 like the liberal leading newspaper that any anyway people read 0:14:45.676 --> 0:14:48.396 too who are convinced already you know, but we need 0:14:48.476 --> 0:14:51.116 to go to the Tantic Minutant twenty minutes, which is 0:14:51.156 --> 0:14:54.156 a newspaper that people read every day a quarter of 0:14:54.236 --> 0:14:57.156 the Swiss population when they commute. If you get to 0:14:57.276 --> 0:15:00.316 this newspaper, which is really short, really easy, and so on, 0:15:00.836 --> 0:15:02.956 you need to be able to say your message in 0:15:03.116 --> 0:15:07.156 one picture and five words. That's all you get, one picture, 0:15:07.396 --> 0:15:09.756 five words. Can you give me an example the campaign 0:15:09.836 --> 0:15:13.196 that you won, because you've now won several campaigns, several 0:15:13.236 --> 0:15:16.036 referendum campaigns, right, so the one I was mentioning about 0:15:16.036 --> 0:15:19.316 the expulsion of criminal foreigners, that was really unexpected because 0:15:19.356 --> 0:15:22.276 we turned from sixty six percent in the first polls 0:15:22.316 --> 0:15:25.436 who were in favor of this initiative, we turn it 0:15:25.516 --> 0:15:29.236 into sixty percent refusing it. And that was a super 0:15:29.356 --> 0:15:32.996 important moment in Switzerland. I remember that they after the 0:15:33.436 --> 0:15:35.716 vote when I walked through Swiss streets and you could 0:15:35.756 --> 0:15:39.116 really feel how people felt relieved that that was for 0:15:39.236 --> 0:15:42.316 the first time that the seventy percent that don't vote 0:15:42.316 --> 0:15:45.556 the SALPA and that didn't vote the SPA four months 0:15:45.596 --> 0:15:48.756 before in the elections, that they realized that they're actually 0:15:48.796 --> 0:15:52.516 the big majority. Right that even though the writing puppeties 0:15:52.636 --> 0:15:57.556 managed to dominate the public discourse for years with their initiatives, 0:15:57.836 --> 0:16:01.596 with their propaganda, I must say, by setting the themes 0:16:01.676 --> 0:16:03.996 that all the other parties need to discuss about. Because 0:16:04.036 --> 0:16:07.716 they're just the richest party, and because they're the best 0:16:07.876 --> 0:16:10.196 organized party, we must and because they are the ones 0:16:10.236 --> 0:16:12.996 who know how to communicate in media society. All of 0:16:13.036 --> 0:16:16.116 a sudden, that was someone who could counter this, and 0:16:16.276 --> 0:16:18.596 we felt that we are the seventy percent. And that 0:16:18.756 --> 0:16:21.996 was such an important moment in Switzerland where we managed 0:16:21.996 --> 0:16:27.076 to break this sovereignty of interpretation over what Switzerland is 0:16:27.116 --> 0:16:30.276 and what Switzerland could be. Is there a longer term goal? 0:16:30.436 --> 0:16:33.356 Is that right now you're fighting referendum by referendum, but 0:16:33.516 --> 0:16:36.116 what happens next? So definitely that's only the first step. 0:16:36.316 --> 0:16:39.236 You know, that's important to know about Switzerland. When you 0:16:39.316 --> 0:16:42.876 win referend us, then you gain street credibility. You're the 0:16:42.956 --> 0:16:46.916 one who manages to convince the majority of the Swiss 0:16:47.436 --> 0:16:50.996 and so through this you gain a certain importance in 0:16:51.076 --> 0:16:54.716 the public discourse. But of course there we still didn't 0:16:54.756 --> 0:16:57.956 actually affect elections, because that's where laws are made in 0:16:58.036 --> 0:16:59.956 the parliament, that's where we see that we still need 0:16:59.996 --> 0:17:03.716 to improve our influence so that because by now we 0:17:03.836 --> 0:17:07.076 only always get in in the last possible moment, you know, 0:17:07.236 --> 0:17:13.036 to somehow prevent wits learn from accepting some initiative. But 0:17:13.196 --> 0:17:15.156 what we actually want is to go over from this 0:17:15.356 --> 0:17:18.716 reactive mode into a more active mode. It comes down 0:17:18.756 --> 0:17:21.076 to this one thing that I would say, how do 0:17:21.196 --> 0:17:25.676 we manage that people see the real need of institutions 0:17:25.796 --> 0:17:29.116 that guarantee their freedom. How do we make sure that 0:17:29.596 --> 0:17:33.156 hope is an emotion just as strong as fear, Because 0:17:33.236 --> 0:17:35.316 that's what I see is the biggest problem these days, 0:17:35.396 --> 0:17:38.556 that of course fear is a super powerful tool, but 0:17:38.836 --> 0:17:41.156 what we need and that's there was always a challenge 0:17:41.196 --> 0:17:43.556 to the roles. The future is unknown, So how can 0:17:43.676 --> 0:17:46.796 we promise a vision or like a future where people 0:17:46.916 --> 0:17:50.076 understand where they want to go to where they feel 0:17:50.116 --> 0:17:53.236 at home. Because that was always, you know, part of 0:17:53.316 --> 0:17:59.316 the emancipational process, that there was something tangible close by, 0:17:59.876 --> 0:18:03.796 something which seemed to be an improvement of the actual situation. 0:18:04.316 --> 0:18:07.636 And in a globalized world now where many values seem 0:18:07.716 --> 0:18:10.996 under pressure, I see that people aren't that sure whether 0:18:11.116 --> 0:18:14.836 the future will be brighter or will be more positive 0:18:14.956 --> 0:18:17.716 than it is today, and that's that's what I mean 0:18:17.796 --> 0:18:20.796 also by the mood or like the atmosphere that I 0:18:20.956 --> 0:18:24.316 want to touch her to change here in Switzerland, that 0:18:24.636 --> 0:18:29.116 people somehow are confident about the future bringing them a 0:18:29.236 --> 0:18:31.556 better life, that they're looking forward to the year twenty 0:18:31.716 --> 0:18:34.076 and fifty where they want to live with their families 0:18:34.156 --> 0:18:38.036 and good jobs in this country. How can this model 0:18:38.836 --> 0:18:41.996 help others? And you know, you've you've created a movement 0:18:42.036 --> 0:18:45.036 inside Switzerland. It's got it deals with a very specific 0:18:45.876 --> 0:18:49.116 form of Swiss politics, namely these referenda that you have periodically, 0:18:49.196 --> 0:18:52.316 and you've you've organized yourself around these referenda. But do 0:18:52.356 --> 0:18:54.556 you think there's a way that your way of thinking, 0:18:54.636 --> 0:18:57.396 in your way of operating could work in other places? 0:18:57.716 --> 0:18:59.436 I think. I mean, if I look back on how 0:18:59.476 --> 0:19:02.516 we started, and you know, we were total amateurs. We 0:19:02.636 --> 0:19:05.196 had no clue about what we were actually doing right, 0:19:05.676 --> 0:19:09.356 but there was this this passion, this will of we 0:19:09.476 --> 0:19:13.396 want to tackle the problem. And that's really a question 0:19:13.436 --> 0:19:16.396 of you know, what's your attitude? You know, And here 0:19:16.436 --> 0:19:19.116 I maybe I always say you need this kind of 0:19:19.756 --> 0:19:23.316 reality distortion field of I don't know if you're fans 0:19:23.356 --> 0:19:26.436 of Star Trek, but there's a la menagerie. I mean, 0:19:26.516 --> 0:19:29.796 imagine the SPA was the strongest party in our country. 0:19:29.916 --> 0:19:32.236 That's not as it is in other countries these days. 0:19:32.356 --> 0:19:37.156 Oftentimes they are still smaller, maybe even more writing populous parties. Okay, 0:19:37.236 --> 0:19:40.876 but in Switzerland take the dominant force for the twenty 0:19:40.916 --> 0:19:42.756 five years that I grew up in. You know, I 0:19:42.836 --> 0:19:45.676 have no I don't know any other system. I don't 0:19:45.716 --> 0:19:48.116 even find it brave, but we just had to imagine 0:19:48.396 --> 0:19:51.756 a different system. You need to believe in what you 0:19:51.916 --> 0:19:54.636 do and where you want to go. And this doesn't 0:19:54.636 --> 0:19:56.716 mean that you have to believe in your own propaganda. 0:19:56.836 --> 0:19:58.876 That's the worst you can do. But you need to 0:19:58.956 --> 0:20:02.036 be really convinced by where you want to go. And 0:20:02.196 --> 0:20:05.116 that brings me back to this vision that you need 0:20:05.196 --> 0:20:07.476 for your country, where you want to go to, and 0:20:07.596 --> 0:20:11.076 I think that's really what we're lacking of in many 0:20:11.156 --> 0:20:15.756 countries that politically just don't really provide a vision where 0:20:15.796 --> 0:20:18.356 people feel that they can feel at home there. So 0:20:18.516 --> 0:20:20.276 there's a there's a kind of template. You know, this 0:20:20.436 --> 0:20:22.836 is what you do? Could you could you name five 0:20:22.996 --> 0:20:26.076 things that people wanting to create a similar kind of 0:20:26.156 --> 0:20:28.716 movement should do. What I find interesting is to think 0:20:28.756 --> 0:20:32.356 about likely and unlikely allies. You know, who is out there, 0:20:32.756 --> 0:20:34.956 who do you know, who do you don't know? And 0:20:35.116 --> 0:20:38.836 with whom could you collaborate in this mission? You know, 0:20:38.996 --> 0:20:42.876 that's a maybe an interesting statigue including allies, for example, 0:20:42.916 --> 0:20:46.916 conservative allies. Yeah, exactly, because you know, you might be 0:20:46.996 --> 0:20:50.956 surprising to some people. But get out there, talk to people, 0:20:51.396 --> 0:20:53.916 get a common understanding about what really matters you, and 0:20:53.996 --> 0:20:56.956 that when I mean what really matters to you. I 0:20:57.116 --> 0:21:01.076 also want to stress the difference between civil society organizations 0:21:01.356 --> 0:21:07.556 and their possibility to actually stress what unites us, you know, 0:21:08.116 --> 0:21:10.716 not as much as part parties. Parties have to stress 0:21:10.796 --> 0:21:14.836 what divides us right for their political means, So society 0:21:14.916 --> 0:21:18.076 organization we can actually stress what unites us, what kind 0:21:18.116 --> 0:21:21.356 of values we want to strengthen in our society, and 0:21:21.476 --> 0:21:25.676 how we want to build a closer society in a 0:21:25.756 --> 0:21:28.916 way less polarized about the more like the tactical side 0:21:28.956 --> 0:21:32.036 of it. I would really, of course recommend to work 0:21:32.076 --> 0:21:36.716 with very modern tools but also more traditional tools. Really 0:21:36.796 --> 0:21:40.316 to go out there to together with people, to discuss 0:21:40.396 --> 0:21:45.636 with people, to get like a real human contact, you know, 0:21:45.876 --> 0:21:48.756 because that's what I at least is my experience. You 0:21:48.836 --> 0:21:53.516 can have the most evil troll who you know, who 0:21:53.756 --> 0:21:56.596 texts you on social media, but once you meet him, 0:21:56.836 --> 0:22:00.796 usually you find the common ground and you can humanly 0:22:01.036 --> 0:22:04.316 discuss about things. So meet people in real life. That's 0:22:04.356 --> 0:22:07.676 another piece of advice. Yeah, what about what kinds of 0:22:07.796 --> 0:22:11.516 tools do you use? What kinds of messaging? So of course, 0:22:11.636 --> 0:22:13.716 I mean you always go with the newest strengths. So 0:22:14.036 --> 0:22:17.356 if you if it is Instagram, it's Instagram. If it's Twitter, 0:22:17.476 --> 0:22:20.636 it's Twitter, and you can The most important is that 0:22:20.716 --> 0:22:25.636 you somehow managed to translate your complex message maybe or 0:22:25.796 --> 0:22:30.396 argument into an understandable message so people can actually take it. 0:22:30.516 --> 0:22:32.676 And I'm not saying this because I think people are stupid. 0:22:32.956 --> 0:22:34.796 We have to do the work. We need to approach 0:22:34.876 --> 0:22:37.876 them and to explain it, you know. So that's to 0:22:37.956 --> 0:22:40.476 explain it in a in a fast and easy way, 0:22:41.036 --> 0:22:43.596 in the ways that people find most accessible. So yeah, 0:22:43.636 --> 0:22:47.436 and whatever it is, commuter tabloids, right, or Internet memes 0:22:47.516 --> 0:22:50.516 and maybe even a fun way. Right you mentioned the memes, 0:22:51.196 --> 0:22:54.556 the short videos something which is fun that people love 0:22:54.676 --> 0:22:57.076 to look. I mean people love to look cat videos 0:22:57.156 --> 0:23:00.236 so and they are only twenty seconds long, so we 0:23:00.556 --> 0:23:04.196 you know that's so you made cat videos. We already 0:23:04.236 --> 0:23:08.116 worked with cat videos. Yes, is there somebody who inspired you? 0:23:08.436 --> 0:23:11.836 The most firing figures were always resistant fighters, for example, 0:23:12.316 --> 0:23:16.756 who fought the fishist regimes in the twentieth century. That's 0:23:17.036 --> 0:23:19.076 why I do what I do. I don't want us 0:23:19.116 --> 0:23:23.356 to go that far, because we've seen what human beings 0:23:23.436 --> 0:23:26.196 can do to our society. To meet starts at a 0:23:26.236 --> 0:23:28.916 different point where we really need to figure out what 0:23:29.036 --> 0:23:31.396 are the basic elements of a society. And to me, 0:23:31.516 --> 0:23:35.836 this really is personal contact. This is neighborhood, this is family. 0:23:36.196 --> 0:23:39.796 Maybe this is just some close relationship to other individuals 0:23:40.316 --> 0:23:43.276 which are not only like minded. Maybe I think this 0:23:43.516 --> 0:23:46.476 is something that that has changed a lot, at least 0:23:46.556 --> 0:23:49.916 how I perceive it, and we should really make sure 0:23:50.116 --> 0:23:54.236 that we reach out to people who have a different 0:23:54.836 --> 0:23:59.356 mindset or different vision of the future. It's so great 0:23:59.396 --> 0:24:02.516 to hear about that cool young historian's work. I just 0:24:02.556 --> 0:24:04.556