1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:22,916 Speaker 1: Bushkin, I'm may have Higgins and this is Solvable Interviews 2 00:00:22,956 --> 00:00:26,036 Speaker 1: with the world's most innovative thinkers who are working to 3 00:00:26,196 --> 00:00:29,996 Speaker 1: solve the world's biggest problems. And this is one episode 4 00:00:30,036 --> 00:00:32,556 Speaker 1: I have been dying to have a listen to. We 5 00:00:32,716 --> 00:00:37,556 Speaker 1: visited Switzerland for this fabulously insightful exchange between Anne Applebaum 6 00:00:37,556 --> 00:00:40,716 Speaker 1: and Flavia Kleiner. Flavia is a twenty eight year old 7 00:00:40,716 --> 00:00:45,636 Speaker 1: history student at the forefront of fighting right wing populism. 8 00:00:45,676 --> 00:00:49,236 Speaker 1: Here's a situation in Switzerland. For more than twenty years, 9 00:00:49,236 --> 00:00:52,076 Speaker 1: the country has been something of a laboratory for right 10 00:00:52,116 --> 00:00:56,916 Speaker 1: wing populism. The right wing Swiss People's Party has successfully 11 00:00:57,036 --> 00:01:01,556 Speaker 1: used referenda as a marketing tool for creating anti immigrant, 12 00:01:01,716 --> 00:01:06,276 Speaker 1: anti EU policies. They have become the largest political force 13 00:01:06,356 --> 00:01:10,556 Speaker 1: in Switzerland. Meanwhile, according to a twenty seventeen study, the 14 00:01:10,676 --> 00:01:14,196 Speaker 1: number of racist incidents in Switzerland has never been higher. 15 00:01:14,636 --> 00:01:19,196 Speaker 1: Flavia Kleiner has a solvable. She co founded Operation Liberal 16 00:01:19,356 --> 00:01:23,676 Speaker 1: to promote a patriotic liberal political platform to directly fight 17 00:01:23,796 --> 00:01:29,396 Speaker 1: back against populism. My solvable is to build a political 18 00:01:29,476 --> 00:01:32,956 Speaker 1: home for people who want to defend our liberal order 19 00:01:33,236 --> 00:01:37,676 Speaker 1: against writing populists in Switzerland as well as in other countries. 20 00:01:37,956 --> 00:01:41,596 Speaker 1: People who are patriots as I am, and people who 21 00:01:41,596 --> 00:01:45,956 Speaker 1: are cheek enough to deal with the nasty writing populists. 22 00:01:46,796 --> 00:01:49,796 Speaker 1: Populist parties have tripled their vote in Europe over the 23 00:01:49,836 --> 00:01:53,476 Speaker 1: past twenty years. More than a quarter of Europeans voted 24 00:01:53,556 --> 00:01:56,916 Speaker 1: populists in their most recent elections, and they're even in 25 00:01:57,036 --> 00:02:01,156 Speaker 1: government in eleven countries. They've been recently re elected in 26 00:02:01,196 --> 00:02:05,796 Speaker 1: Australia and in the world's largest democracy, India. Why does 27 00:02:05,796 --> 00:02:10,276 Speaker 1: this matter Well, Populists tend to frame politics as a 28 00:02:10,316 --> 00:02:15,236 Speaker 1: battle between the virtuous ordinary masses and a corrupt elite. 29 00:02:15,676 --> 00:02:19,276 Speaker 1: They insist that the will of the people must always triumph. 30 00:02:19,516 --> 00:02:23,076 Speaker 1: Of course, that can be just the framing. In reality, 31 00:02:23,116 --> 00:02:28,276 Speaker 1: Often populous target poor people, foreigners, women, religious groups, anybody 32 00:02:28,276 --> 00:02:31,276 Speaker 1: they have a problem with. Populace then use this us 33 00:02:31,316 --> 00:02:35,916 Speaker 1: against them, framing to their advantage and cause real divisions 34 00:02:35,956 --> 00:02:39,836 Speaker 1: that make it harder to unify for global goals, from 35 00:02:39,956 --> 00:02:44,436 Speaker 1: fighting poverty, famine and disease to banding together to face 36 00:02:44,676 --> 00:02:49,636 Speaker 1: climate chaos. In American history, populous movements have regularly sprung 37 00:02:49,716 --> 00:02:52,396 Speaker 1: up on both the left and the right, and they're 38 00:02:52,436 --> 00:02:56,516 Speaker 1: thriving today. But back to Switzerland and our guest for 39 00:02:56,556 --> 00:02:59,956 Speaker 1: this episode. It's thrilling to hear how Flavia took on 40 00:03:00,036 --> 00:03:04,156 Speaker 1: the Swiss right wing machinery to take patriotism and Swiss 41 00:03:04,196 --> 00:03:08,276 Speaker 1: pride those are usually used as a weapon against immigrants 42 00:03:08,316 --> 00:03:11,916 Speaker 1: and argue us for a more progressive country. And she's 43 00:03:11,996 --> 00:03:17,716 Speaker 1: winning too. Flavia's levity and optimism are not at all pollyannaish. 44 00:03:18,156 --> 00:03:20,356 Speaker 1: She can back up her theories now in the number 45 00:03:20,356 --> 00:03:24,756 Speaker 1: of victories under her belt. Flavia is making concrete changes. 46 00:03:24,836 --> 00:03:27,996 Speaker 1: So listen out for her advice around social media and 47 00:03:28,116 --> 00:03:32,156 Speaker 1: framing and language. Okay, so let's take a listen to 48 00:03:32,196 --> 00:03:42,436 Speaker 1: Anne and Flavia and I'll see you on the other side. Flay, 49 00:03:42,556 --> 00:03:46,836 Speaker 1: you a few years ago identified what you felt to 50 00:03:46,916 --> 00:03:50,956 Speaker 1: be a very deep problem in your country. Can you 51 00:03:50,996 --> 00:03:54,596 Speaker 1: describe what it is and how did you first recognize it? 52 00:03:55,196 --> 00:03:59,156 Speaker 1: So actually goes back to well by Data Firth. Nearly 53 00:03:59,236 --> 00:04:02,356 Speaker 1: it was a ninety two there was a vote on 54 00:04:02,476 --> 00:04:07,156 Speaker 1: Switzerland joining or not joining European Commercial Area or economic 55 00:04:07,356 --> 00:04:11,596 Speaker 1: European Economic Area. The EA and the Swiss refused that, 56 00:04:12,276 --> 00:04:16,596 Speaker 1: and that was actually the starting point of incredible career 57 00:04:16,876 --> 00:04:20,996 Speaker 1: of a party called the Swiss People's Party here, which 58 00:04:21,316 --> 00:04:24,796 Speaker 1: is which happened to turn from a really conservative party 59 00:04:25,196 --> 00:04:30,356 Speaker 1: into a rather writing populist party as well. And Christophe Blojo, 60 00:04:30,516 --> 00:04:35,196 Speaker 1: he is the leader, the well known personality of this party. 61 00:04:35,316 --> 00:04:38,916 Speaker 1: There's a saying that he has tailor made suits but 62 00:04:39,036 --> 00:04:41,676 Speaker 1: which actually don't really fit on the shoulder, so he 63 00:04:41,716 --> 00:04:44,636 Speaker 1: would pretend to be one of you know, the people, 64 00:04:44,876 --> 00:04:47,516 Speaker 1: but actually he's a billionaire. He's super rich, one of 65 00:04:47,516 --> 00:04:50,596 Speaker 1: the richest people in Switzerland. He runs this party and 66 00:04:50,716 --> 00:04:54,676 Speaker 1: he finances this party mostly and so that was basically 67 00:04:54,716 --> 00:04:58,436 Speaker 1: the start of this career of the party. So the 68 00:04:58,556 --> 00:05:02,276 Speaker 1: problem you identified is the problem of Swiss populism. You 69 00:05:02,396 --> 00:05:05,396 Speaker 1: identified a particular event and it was the referendum on 70 00:05:05,476 --> 00:05:09,476 Speaker 1: mass migration. Can you explain what's the significance of randoms 71 00:05:09,516 --> 00:05:12,076 Speaker 1: in Switzerland and why this one in particular affected you. 72 00:05:12,276 --> 00:05:16,956 Speaker 1: The SPALPE came up with what we call a popular initiative, 73 00:05:17,236 --> 00:05:21,716 Speaker 1: which is a direct democratic proposal to the Swiss people 74 00:05:21,996 --> 00:05:25,196 Speaker 1: that we vote on and it means that you need 75 00:05:25,316 --> 00:05:30,756 Speaker 1: to collect one hundred thousand signatures on a specific legal text, 76 00:05:31,236 --> 00:05:35,596 Speaker 1: which then, if it is accepted, is being introduced into 77 00:05:35,796 --> 00:05:38,996 Speaker 1: our constitution. So it's such just some law. You know, 78 00:05:39,156 --> 00:05:43,636 Speaker 1: it's changing our constitution. So the writing populists as well 79 00:05:43,676 --> 00:05:48,036 Speaker 1: as other parties misuse this tool today as a marketing 80 00:05:48,076 --> 00:05:51,596 Speaker 1: tool for their issues. They come up with this just 81 00:05:51,756 --> 00:05:55,516 Speaker 1: right before election so they can campaign on a specific issue. 82 00:05:55,756 --> 00:05:58,836 Speaker 1: But the originally this right was given to minorities which 83 00:05:58,836 --> 00:06:02,756 Speaker 1: would never be represented in Parliament, and through this initiative 84 00:06:02,836 --> 00:06:06,076 Speaker 1: they could introduce law and come up with issues which 85 00:06:06,116 --> 00:06:09,716 Speaker 1: matter to them. And so that particular event was in 86 00:06:09,876 --> 00:06:13,116 Speaker 1: February twenty fourteen, but we voted on the so called 87 00:06:13,156 --> 00:06:17,036 Speaker 1: mass immigration initiative. Already from the name, you can see 88 00:06:17,076 --> 00:06:20,596 Speaker 1: that it comes up. It brings up a certain framing 89 00:06:20,996 --> 00:06:24,676 Speaker 1: and the ESPAPE wanted to limit the number of people 90 00:06:24,756 --> 00:06:29,316 Speaker 1: coming to Switzerland in the free movement of People agreement 91 00:06:29,516 --> 00:06:33,036 Speaker 1: that we have with the European Union. Switzerland is not 92 00:06:33,116 --> 00:06:35,396 Speaker 1: a member of the European Union, but we have bilateral 93 00:06:35,436 --> 00:06:38,276 Speaker 1: treaties and the asphape is that there's just too many 94 00:06:38,276 --> 00:06:42,316 Speaker 1: people coming to Switzerland every year. And they won, yeah, 95 00:06:42,556 --> 00:06:45,436 Speaker 1: by a really close marching of fifty point three percent. 96 00:06:45,556 --> 00:06:48,436 Speaker 1: It was only twenty thousand votes which made the difference. 97 00:06:48,556 --> 00:06:50,956 Speaker 1: And so you said to yourself, how do we stop this, 98 00:06:51,116 --> 00:06:53,276 Speaker 1: and then you went through a process of trying to think, 99 00:06:53,596 --> 00:06:56,116 Speaker 1: how do we push back against this kind of language. Yeah, 100 00:06:56,156 --> 00:06:59,476 Speaker 1: the thing was, we didn't actually recognize ourselves in the 101 00:06:59,516 --> 00:07:02,596 Speaker 1: country that we grew up in because we saw Switzerland 102 00:07:02,596 --> 00:07:07,996 Speaker 1: as a cosmopol international country, open and so on, and 103 00:07:08,356 --> 00:07:10,996 Speaker 1: nobody really expected this to happen. It was like our 104 00:07:11,116 --> 00:07:13,756 Speaker 1: Brexit moment. You know what, we said, Okay, that's not 105 00:07:13,796 --> 00:07:15,756 Speaker 1: the country that we want to live in. We want 106 00:07:15,756 --> 00:07:17,916 Speaker 1: to change this. We want to have a brighter future 107 00:07:18,196 --> 00:07:20,916 Speaker 1: and a brighter vision for what twitterland it can be. 108 00:07:21,436 --> 00:07:25,476 Speaker 1: But the populist argument had already infected all the other parties. 109 00:07:25,476 --> 00:07:28,396 Speaker 1: In other words, everybody began saying and so it's on, Well, actually, 110 00:07:28,476 --> 00:07:30,396 Speaker 1: maybe it's true, maybe there are too many people here, 111 00:07:30,476 --> 00:07:34,036 Speaker 1: Maybe we need stronger borders, maybe we need greater sovereignty. 112 00:07:34,196 --> 00:07:36,236 Speaker 1: So how do you how do you push back against 113 00:07:36,236 --> 00:07:39,556 Speaker 1: that kind of you know, this change of social mood. Basically, 114 00:07:39,596 --> 00:07:42,876 Speaker 1: what we saw is that we want to promote Switzerland 115 00:07:43,196 --> 00:07:45,996 Speaker 1: regarding to the future. We said, Switzerland is the land 116 00:07:45,996 --> 00:07:49,036 Speaker 1: of opportunity of the twenty first century. We're not a 117 00:07:49,196 --> 00:07:52,636 Speaker 1: kind of open air museum where nothing should ever change 118 00:07:52,716 --> 00:07:54,516 Speaker 1: and that's also the country we want to live in 119 00:07:54,516 --> 00:07:56,876 Speaker 1: in two thousand and fifty. We're actually looking forward to 120 00:07:56,916 --> 00:07:59,956 Speaker 1: the r two thousand and fifty. So you began reframing 121 00:07:59,956 --> 00:08:03,036 Speaker 1: the conversation. But actually you said to me earlier you 122 00:08:03,036 --> 00:08:05,676 Speaker 1: you thought first about creating a political party, and then 123 00:08:05,676 --> 00:08:07,796 Speaker 1: you decided that wasn't the way to go, right. So 124 00:08:07,876 --> 00:08:10,236 Speaker 1: for us, I mean, of course, we were super disappointed 125 00:08:10,236 --> 00:08:13,036 Speaker 1: about all the other parties. We just overtook the narration 126 00:08:13,116 --> 00:08:15,436 Speaker 1: of the SPA pay of there are too many people 127 00:08:15,436 --> 00:08:19,036 Speaker 1: in our trains, there are too many people renting apartments here. 128 00:08:19,276 --> 00:08:21,916 Speaker 1: First we thought, okay, we have to just make a 129 00:08:21,916 --> 00:08:25,116 Speaker 1: new party, because we don't we cannot identify with any 130 00:08:25,156 --> 00:08:27,916 Speaker 1: other we don't have a political home. But then we 131 00:08:28,036 --> 00:08:30,356 Speaker 1: realized that in the Swiss political system it doesn't really 132 00:08:30,396 --> 00:08:32,516 Speaker 1: make sense to create a new party. But instead we 133 00:08:32,636 --> 00:08:39,116 Speaker 1: decided to create an overpartisan movement, which actually goes against 134 00:08:39,156 --> 00:08:43,596 Speaker 1: this tendency of polarization. But we wanted to unite the 135 00:08:43,836 --> 00:08:47,916 Speaker 1: progressive liberal minds in this country, and also we wanted 136 00:08:47,956 --> 00:08:51,076 Speaker 1: to link us somehow back to the tradition of eighteen 137 00:08:51,156 --> 00:08:54,556 Speaker 1: forty eight, which was the foundation of the liberal stat 138 00:08:54,596 --> 00:08:59,196 Speaker 1: of Switzerland. And we introduced ourselves with our manifesto as 139 00:08:59,236 --> 00:09:02,276 Speaker 1: the children of eighteen forty eight, so trying to link 140 00:09:02,556 --> 00:09:04,956 Speaker 1: these liberal ideas back to the past. So they're party 141 00:09:04,956 --> 00:09:06,876 Speaker 1: of Swiss history, and they don't seem like some kind 142 00:09:06,876 --> 00:09:09,716 Speaker 1: of foreign import. No. Absolutely, and even more, it was 143 00:09:09,716 --> 00:09:14,196 Speaker 1: a really patriotic but emancipated, patriotic understanding of where we 144 00:09:14,236 --> 00:09:17,356 Speaker 1: come from. The founding fathers of our country were the 145 00:09:17,436 --> 00:09:21,276 Speaker 1: Liberals in eighteen forty eight, and we totally identify with 146 00:09:21,756 --> 00:09:25,516 Speaker 1: their mindset of what it means to be a modern Switzerland. 147 00:09:25,596 --> 00:09:28,596 Speaker 1: But then, how did you actually change people's minds? How 148 00:09:28,596 --> 00:09:31,156 Speaker 1: did you begin arguing this? I mean, you're a group 149 00:09:31,196 --> 00:09:35,356 Speaker 1: of students at the university. You know what were actually 150 00:09:35,356 --> 00:09:37,796 Speaker 1: the tools that you used? Now I jumped forward to 151 00:09:38,396 --> 00:09:42,276 Speaker 1: October twenty fifteen, That was like one and a half 152 00:09:42,356 --> 00:09:45,716 Speaker 1: year after the whole thing happened, and we launched our organization, 153 00:09:45,796 --> 00:09:49,636 Speaker 1: our movement. We had elections in Switzerland in two fifteen, 154 00:09:49,876 --> 00:09:52,876 Speaker 1: and that was a moment where again the SFLP, the 155 00:09:52,956 --> 00:09:56,916 Speaker 1: writing puppetists, became the strongest party in Switzerland with twenty 156 00:09:56,956 --> 00:10:01,356 Speaker 1: nine percent, okay, twenty nine percent of our parliament. And 157 00:10:01,396 --> 00:10:03,916 Speaker 1: so again the other party said, oh, come on, which 158 00:10:03,996 --> 00:10:07,396 Speaker 1: is we can't you know, we have nothing to help 159 00:10:07,516 --> 00:10:11,756 Speaker 1: us against the Superstruc party. And then only one month 160 00:10:11,796 --> 00:10:16,356 Speaker 1: after the government said okay, guys, in three months time, 161 00:10:16,516 --> 00:10:20,196 Speaker 1: we're going to vote on the so called expulsion of 162 00:10:20,236 --> 00:10:23,876 Speaker 1: criminal foreigners initiative. That was an initiative which wanted to 163 00:10:23,916 --> 00:10:28,116 Speaker 1: expel criminal foreigners even for minor infrictions of law, for 164 00:10:28,196 --> 00:10:32,476 Speaker 1: example driving two times too fast within ten years, which 165 00:10:32,676 --> 00:10:35,356 Speaker 1: actually happens to everyone, you know. The other party said, 166 00:10:35,396 --> 00:10:39,276 Speaker 1: oh no, come on, this is again about criminals and 167 00:10:39,316 --> 00:10:43,796 Speaker 1: then foreigners, and it's driven by the Svapai is popular initiative. 168 00:10:44,116 --> 00:10:47,476 Speaker 1: We have no chance. Rather we hide and let it 169 00:10:47,596 --> 00:10:50,516 Speaker 1: just pass instead of you know, losing again energy and 170 00:10:50,596 --> 00:10:53,356 Speaker 1: time and any way, we just lost the elections. That 171 00:10:53,556 --> 00:10:55,836 Speaker 1: was a moment where we somehow came up and said, okay, 172 00:10:56,396 --> 00:10:58,356 Speaker 1: we don't want to live in a country where there's 173 00:10:58,396 --> 00:11:01,236 Speaker 1: a kind of too tire legal system. You have to 174 00:11:01,316 --> 00:11:04,476 Speaker 1: know that in Switzerland, twenty five percent of the population 175 00:11:04,636 --> 00:11:08,156 Speaker 1: don't have a Swiss passport. They might live here for generations. 176 00:11:08,476 --> 00:11:10,476 Speaker 1: They don't have a genuine link to the country that 177 00:11:10,596 --> 00:11:14,276 Speaker 1: they come from, but they would have been maybe victims 178 00:11:14,396 --> 00:11:18,276 Speaker 1: of that new law introduced into our constitution. So that 179 00:11:18,436 --> 00:11:20,716 Speaker 1: was a moment where we somehow stood up and said, Okay, 180 00:11:21,636 --> 00:11:24,516 Speaker 1: we don't We're definitely not gonna make the gift to 181 00:11:24,636 --> 00:11:28,796 Speaker 1: the writing populace and defend criminal foreigners because then you 182 00:11:28,836 --> 00:11:32,356 Speaker 1: would anyway lose. So we realized that if we want 183 00:11:32,396 --> 00:11:36,596 Speaker 1: to convince the conservative majority in Switzerland, we need to 184 00:11:36,676 --> 00:11:40,036 Speaker 1: speak about something that matters to them as well, because 185 00:11:40,036 --> 00:11:43,596 Speaker 1: it's so super easy what the writing populace wanted to do. 186 00:11:43,756 --> 00:11:45,796 Speaker 1: They wanted to ask the people and take, guys, this 187 00:11:46,036 --> 00:11:48,996 Speaker 1: is your chance to expel criminal foreigners from that country. 188 00:11:49,516 --> 00:11:51,196 Speaker 1: Why don't you just say yes? And who's going to 189 00:11:51,236 --> 00:11:53,916 Speaker 1: disagree with? All right? And so we said instead, guys, 190 00:11:54,396 --> 00:11:58,716 Speaker 1: this is actually going against the fundamental principles of our constitution, 191 00:11:59,076 --> 00:12:03,516 Speaker 1: against rule of law, against principle of proportionality, which is 192 00:12:03,556 --> 00:12:06,916 Speaker 1: super important to judges, because actually this law wanted to 193 00:12:07,636 --> 00:12:11,796 Speaker 1: limit and restrict the ability ability of judges to actually 194 00:12:11,876 --> 00:12:15,596 Speaker 1: look at the individual case and instead introduce a kind 195 00:12:15,596 --> 00:12:19,036 Speaker 1: of automatism to our legal system. I think that was 196 00:12:19,116 --> 00:12:23,756 Speaker 1: crucial because we decided that we somehow want to conquer 197 00:12:24,196 --> 00:12:28,916 Speaker 1: the sovereignty of interpretation from the Writing Populists over their 198 00:12:28,996 --> 00:12:32,196 Speaker 1: initiative through this, and that was actually the biggest compliment 199 00:12:32,276 --> 00:12:35,156 Speaker 1: that the party leader of the Writing Populists made me 200 00:12:35,596 --> 00:12:38,236 Speaker 1: was when he said after the election, after the whole campaign, 201 00:12:38,276 --> 00:12:40,516 Speaker 1: he said, I didn't know what happened, but at sometimes, 202 00:12:40,676 --> 00:12:42,756 Speaker 1: at some point we only spoke about rule of law, 203 00:12:42,876 --> 00:12:45,876 Speaker 1: and that was actually framing big success right that we had. 204 00:12:46,116 --> 00:12:49,036 Speaker 1: So you reframed the idea. But then what were the 205 00:12:49,116 --> 00:12:52,196 Speaker 1: tactics that you used. The most important tactics, I think 206 00:12:52,316 --> 00:12:55,316 Speaker 1: is really to find a popular language to what I 207 00:12:55,476 --> 00:13:00,116 Speaker 1: just described, which seems really abstract of course argument, we 208 00:13:00,276 --> 00:13:04,876 Speaker 1: managed to translate it into a narrative, something tangible to people. 209 00:13:05,236 --> 00:13:08,236 Speaker 1: And what we did is actually we spoke about Mother Helvetia. 210 00:13:08,436 --> 00:13:11,996 Speaker 1: She's like gegorical figure which represents all these Swiss values 211 00:13:12,076 --> 00:13:14,036 Speaker 1: you find you find there on our coins and so on, 212 00:13:14,596 --> 00:13:18,196 Speaker 1: and this Swiss referred to her. She's the emancipated figure 213 00:13:18,276 --> 00:13:22,036 Speaker 1: which represents the values of eighteen forty eight, so the 214 00:13:22,196 --> 00:13:26,556 Speaker 1: liberal institutions, and we said she would be smashed by 215 00:13:26,756 --> 00:13:32,156 Speaker 1: what we translated as a metaphor at this initiative, she 216 00:13:32,236 --> 00:13:35,196 Speaker 1: will be smashed by a wrecking ball. This statue of 217 00:13:35,436 --> 00:13:38,916 Speaker 1: modern healthbates that will be wrecked. And you did memes 218 00:13:38,956 --> 00:13:42,436 Speaker 1: of that, yeah, exactly, and the video and so on afterwards. 219 00:13:42,596 --> 00:13:45,596 Speaker 1: That's a special group or entity of volunteers we have. 220 00:13:45,756 --> 00:13:50,036 Speaker 1: They're called online warriors. They basically are really active on 221 00:13:50,196 --> 00:13:54,636 Speaker 1: social media and they're basically fighting back trolls and like 222 00:13:54,836 --> 00:13:58,276 Speaker 1: fake news which are spread online. They actually go there 223 00:13:58,356 --> 00:14:01,636 Speaker 1: and engage the trolls into a debate, and they do 224 00:14:01,756 --> 00:14:06,036 Speaker 1: it under their personal private account as citizens online with 225 00:14:06,196 --> 00:14:08,996 Speaker 1: their real names, right, they debate there and what we 226 00:14:09,196 --> 00:14:12,276 Speaker 1: see actually and that's the fantastic effect of it, that 227 00:14:12,436 --> 00:14:16,196 Speaker 1: we can actually change debates online and that we can 228 00:14:16,356 --> 00:14:19,876 Speaker 1: effect also the level of you know, factfulness and so on. 229 00:14:19,996 --> 00:14:22,836 Speaker 1: So that's a really that's a really important change that 230 00:14:22,916 --> 00:14:25,276 Speaker 1: we can see. I really think you can be popular 231 00:14:25,356 --> 00:14:29,436 Speaker 1: without being populistic, you know, and you can actually you 232 00:14:29,556 --> 00:14:32,156 Speaker 1: need to find ways in this media society that we 233 00:14:32,236 --> 00:14:35,116 Speaker 1: live in. You need to find ways to say things easier. 234 00:14:35,356 --> 00:14:38,116 Speaker 1: To give you another example, if we can pain we 235 00:14:38,316 --> 00:14:40,916 Speaker 1: don't need to go to the noyetichal Titung, which is 236 00:14:40,956 --> 00:14:45,636 Speaker 1: like the liberal leading newspaper that any anyway people read 237 00:14:45,676 --> 00:14:48,396 Speaker 1: too who are convinced already you know, but we need 238 00:14:48,476 --> 00:14:51,116 Speaker 1: to go to the Tantic Minutant twenty minutes, which is 239 00:14:51,156 --> 00:14:54,156 Speaker 1: a newspaper that people read every day a quarter of 240 00:14:54,236 --> 00:14:57,156 Speaker 1: the Swiss population when they commute. If you get to 241 00:14:57,276 --> 00:15:00,316 Speaker 1: this newspaper, which is really short, really easy, and so on, 242 00:15:00,836 --> 00:15:02,956 Speaker 1: you need to be able to say your message in 243 00:15:03,116 --> 00:15:07,156 Speaker 1: one picture and five words. That's all you get, one picture, 244 00:15:07,396 --> 00:15:09,756 Speaker 1: five words. Can you give me an example the campaign 245 00:15:09,836 --> 00:15:13,196 Speaker 1: that you won, because you've now won several campaigns, several 246 00:15:13,236 --> 00:15:16,036 Speaker 1: referendum campaigns, right, so the one I was mentioning about 247 00:15:16,036 --> 00:15:19,316 Speaker 1: the expulsion of criminal foreigners, that was really unexpected because 248 00:15:19,356 --> 00:15:22,276 Speaker 1: we turned from sixty six percent in the first polls 249 00:15:22,316 --> 00:15:25,436 Speaker 1: who were in favor of this initiative, we turn it 250 00:15:25,516 --> 00:15:29,236 Speaker 1: into sixty percent refusing it. And that was a super 251 00:15:29,356 --> 00:15:32,996 Speaker 1: important moment in Switzerland. I remember that they after the 252 00:15:33,436 --> 00:15:35,716 Speaker 1: vote when I walked through Swiss streets and you could 253 00:15:35,756 --> 00:15:39,116 Speaker 1: really feel how people felt relieved that that was for 254 00:15:39,236 --> 00:15:42,316 Speaker 1: the first time that the seventy percent that don't vote 255 00:15:42,316 --> 00:15:45,556 Speaker 1: the SALPA and that didn't vote the SPA four months 256 00:15:45,596 --> 00:15:48,756 Speaker 1: before in the elections, that they realized that they're actually 257 00:15:48,796 --> 00:15:52,516 Speaker 1: the big majority. Right that even though the writing puppeties 258 00:15:52,636 --> 00:15:57,556 Speaker 1: managed to dominate the public discourse for years with their initiatives, 259 00:15:57,836 --> 00:16:01,596 Speaker 1: with their propaganda, I must say, by setting the themes 260 00:16:01,676 --> 00:16:03,996 Speaker 1: that all the other parties need to discuss about. Because 261 00:16:04,036 --> 00:16:07,716 Speaker 1: they're just the richest party, and because they're the best 262 00:16:07,876 --> 00:16:10,196 Speaker 1: organized party, we must and because they are the ones 263 00:16:10,236 --> 00:16:12,996 Speaker 1: who know how to communicate in media society. All of 264 00:16:13,036 --> 00:16:16,116 Speaker 1: a sudden, that was someone who could counter this, and 265 00:16:16,276 --> 00:16:18,596 Speaker 1: we felt that we are the seventy percent. And that 266 00:16:18,756 --> 00:16:21,996 Speaker 1: was such an important moment in Switzerland where we managed 267 00:16:21,996 --> 00:16:27,076 Speaker 1: to break this sovereignty of interpretation over what Switzerland is 268 00:16:27,116 --> 00:16:30,276 Speaker 1: and what Switzerland could be. Is there a longer term goal? 269 00:16:30,436 --> 00:16:33,356 Speaker 1: Is that right now you're fighting referendum by referendum, but 270 00:16:33,516 --> 00:16:36,116 Speaker 1: what happens next? So definitely that's only the first step. 271 00:16:36,316 --> 00:16:39,236 Speaker 1: You know, that's important to know about Switzerland. When you 272 00:16:39,316 --> 00:16:42,876 Speaker 1: win referend us, then you gain street credibility. You're the 273 00:16:42,956 --> 00:16:46,916 Speaker 1: one who manages to convince the majority of the Swiss 274 00:16:47,436 --> 00:16:50,996 Speaker 1: and so through this you gain a certain importance in 275 00:16:51,076 --> 00:16:54,716 Speaker 1: the public discourse. But of course there we still didn't 276 00:16:54,756 --> 00:16:57,956 Speaker 1: actually affect elections, because that's where laws are made in 277 00:16:58,036 --> 00:16:59,956 Speaker 1: the parliament, that's where we see that we still need 278 00:16:59,996 --> 00:17:03,716 Speaker 1: to improve our influence so that because by now we 279 00:17:03,836 --> 00:17:07,076 Speaker 1: only always get in in the last possible moment, you know, 280 00:17:07,236 --> 00:17:13,036 Speaker 1: to somehow prevent wits learn from accepting some initiative. But 281 00:17:13,196 --> 00:17:15,156 Speaker 1: what we actually want is to go over from this 282 00:17:15,356 --> 00:17:18,716 Speaker 1: reactive mode into a more active mode. It comes down 283 00:17:18,756 --> 00:17:21,076 Speaker 1: to this one thing that I would say, how do 284 00:17:21,196 --> 00:17:25,676 Speaker 1: we manage that people see the real need of institutions 285 00:17:25,796 --> 00:17:29,116 Speaker 1: that guarantee their freedom. How do we make sure that 286 00:17:29,596 --> 00:17:33,156 Speaker 1: hope is an emotion just as strong as fear, Because 287 00:17:33,236 --> 00:17:35,316 Speaker 1: that's what I see is the biggest problem these days, 288 00:17:35,396 --> 00:17:38,556 Speaker 1: that of course fear is a super powerful tool, but 289 00:17:38,836 --> 00:17:41,156 Speaker 1: what we need and that's there was always a challenge 290 00:17:41,196 --> 00:17:43,556 Speaker 1: to the roles. The future is unknown, So how can 291 00:17:43,676 --> 00:17:46,796 Speaker 1: we promise a vision or like a future where people 292 00:17:46,916 --> 00:17:50,076 Speaker 1: understand where they want to go to where they feel 293 00:17:50,116 --> 00:17:53,236 Speaker 1: at home. Because that was always, you know, part of 294 00:17:53,316 --> 00:17:59,316 Speaker 1: the emancipational process, that there was something tangible close by, 295 00:17:59,876 --> 00:18:03,796 Speaker 1: something which seemed to be an improvement of the actual situation. 296 00:18:04,316 --> 00:18:07,636 Speaker 1: And in a globalized world now where many values seem 297 00:18:07,716 --> 00:18:10,996 Speaker 1: under pressure, I see that people aren't that sure whether 298 00:18:11,116 --> 00:18:14,836 Speaker 1: the future will be brighter or will be more positive 299 00:18:14,956 --> 00:18:17,716 Speaker 1: than it is today, and that's that's what I mean 300 00:18:17,796 --> 00:18:20,796 Speaker 1: also by the mood or like the atmosphere that I 301 00:18:20,956 --> 00:18:24,316 Speaker 1: want to touch her to change here in Switzerland, that 302 00:18:24,636 --> 00:18:29,116 Speaker 1: people somehow are confident about the future bringing them a 303 00:18:29,236 --> 00:18:31,556 Speaker 1: better life, that they're looking forward to the year twenty 304 00:18:31,716 --> 00:18:34,076 Speaker 1: and fifty where they want to live with their families 305 00:18:34,156 --> 00:18:38,036 Speaker 1: and good jobs in this country. How can this model 306 00:18:38,836 --> 00:18:41,996 Speaker 1: help others? And you know, you've you've created a movement 307 00:18:42,036 --> 00:18:45,036 Speaker 1: inside Switzerland. It's got it deals with a very specific 308 00:18:45,876 --> 00:18:49,116 Speaker 1: form of Swiss politics, namely these referenda that you have periodically, 309 00:18:49,196 --> 00:18:52,316 Speaker 1: and you've you've organized yourself around these referenda. But do 310 00:18:52,356 --> 00:18:54,556 Speaker 1: you think there's a way that your way of thinking, 311 00:18:54,636 --> 00:18:57,396 Speaker 1: in your way of operating could work in other places? 312 00:18:57,716 --> 00:18:59,436 Speaker 1: I think. I mean, if I look back on how 313 00:18:59,476 --> 00:19:02,516 Speaker 1: we started, and you know, we were total amateurs. We 314 00:19:02,636 --> 00:19:05,196 Speaker 1: had no clue about what we were actually doing right, 315 00:19:05,676 --> 00:19:09,356 Speaker 1: but there was this this passion, this will of we 316 00:19:09,476 --> 00:19:13,396 Speaker 1: want to tackle the problem. And that's really a question 317 00:19:13,436 --> 00:19:16,396 Speaker 1: of you know, what's your attitude? You know, And here 318 00:19:16,436 --> 00:19:19,116 Speaker 1: I maybe I always say you need this kind of 319 00:19:19,756 --> 00:19:23,316 Speaker 1: reality distortion field of I don't know if you're fans 320 00:19:23,356 --> 00:19:26,436 Speaker 1: of Star Trek, but there's a la menagerie. I mean, 321 00:19:26,516 --> 00:19:29,796 Speaker 1: imagine the SPA was the strongest party in our country. 322 00:19:29,916 --> 00:19:32,236 Speaker 1: That's not as it is in other countries these days. 323 00:19:32,356 --> 00:19:37,156 Speaker 1: Oftentimes they are still smaller, maybe even more writing populous parties. Okay, 324 00:19:37,236 --> 00:19:40,876 Speaker 1: but in Switzerland take the dominant force for the twenty 325 00:19:40,916 --> 00:19:42,756 Speaker 1: five years that I grew up in. You know, I 326 00:19:42,836 --> 00:19:45,676 Speaker 1: have no I don't know any other system. I don't 327 00:19:45,716 --> 00:19:48,116 Speaker 1: even find it brave, but we just had to imagine 328 00:19:48,396 --> 00:19:51,756 Speaker 1: a different system. You need to believe in what you 329 00:19:51,916 --> 00:19:54,636 Speaker 1: do and where you want to go. And this doesn't 330 00:19:54,636 --> 00:19:56,716 Speaker 1: mean that you have to believe in your own propaganda. 331 00:19:56,836 --> 00:19:58,876 Speaker 1: That's the worst you can do. But you need to 332 00:19:58,956 --> 00:20:02,036 Speaker 1: be really convinced by where you want to go. And 333 00:20:02,196 --> 00:20:05,116 Speaker 1: that brings me back to this vision that you need 334 00:20:05,196 --> 00:20:07,476 Speaker 1: for your country, where you want to go to, and 335 00:20:07,596 --> 00:20:11,076 Speaker 1: I think that's really what we're lacking of in many 336 00:20:11,156 --> 00:20:15,756 Speaker 1: countries that politically just don't really provide a vision where 337 00:20:15,796 --> 00:20:18,356 Speaker 1: people feel that they can feel at home there. So 338 00:20:18,516 --> 00:20:20,276 Speaker 1: there's a there's a kind of template. You know, this 339 00:20:20,436 --> 00:20:22,836 Speaker 1: is what you do? Could you could you name five 340 00:20:22,996 --> 00:20:26,076 Speaker 1: things that people wanting to create a similar kind of 341 00:20:26,156 --> 00:20:28,716 Speaker 1: movement should do. What I find interesting is to think 342 00:20:28,756 --> 00:20:32,356 Speaker 1: about likely and unlikely allies. You know, who is out there, 343 00:20:32,756 --> 00:20:34,956 Speaker 1: who do you know, who do you don't know? And 344 00:20:35,116 --> 00:20:38,836 Speaker 1: with whom could you collaborate in this mission? You know, 345 00:20:38,996 --> 00:20:42,876 Speaker 1: that's a maybe an interesting statigue including allies, for example, 346 00:20:42,916 --> 00:20:46,916 Speaker 1: conservative allies. Yeah, exactly, because you know, you might be 347 00:20:46,996 --> 00:20:50,956 Speaker 1: surprising to some people. But get out there, talk to people, 348 00:20:51,396 --> 00:20:53,916 Speaker 1: get a common understanding about what really matters you, and 349 00:20:53,996 --> 00:20:56,956 Speaker 1: that when I mean what really matters to you. I 350 00:20:57,116 --> 00:21:01,076 Speaker 1: also want to stress the difference between civil society organizations 351 00:21:01,356 --> 00:21:07,556 Speaker 1: and their possibility to actually stress what unites us, you know, 352 00:21:08,116 --> 00:21:10,716 Speaker 1: not as much as part parties. Parties have to stress 353 00:21:10,796 --> 00:21:14,836 Speaker 1: what divides us right for their political means, So society 354 00:21:14,916 --> 00:21:18,076 Speaker 1: organization we can actually stress what unites us, what kind 355 00:21:18,116 --> 00:21:21,356 Speaker 1: of values we want to strengthen in our society, and 356 00:21:21,476 --> 00:21:25,676 Speaker 1: how we want to build a closer society in a 357 00:21:25,756 --> 00:21:28,916 Speaker 1: way less polarized about the more like the tactical side 358 00:21:28,956 --> 00:21:32,036 Speaker 1: of it. I would really, of course recommend to work 359 00:21:32,076 --> 00:21:36,716 Speaker 1: with very modern tools but also more traditional tools. Really 360 00:21:36,796 --> 00:21:40,316 Speaker 1: to go out there to together with people, to discuss 361 00:21:40,396 --> 00:21:45,636 Speaker 1: with people, to get like a real human contact, you know, 362 00:21:45,876 --> 00:21:48,756 Speaker 1: because that's what I at least is my experience. You 363 00:21:48,836 --> 00:21:53,516 Speaker 1: can have the most evil troll who you know, who 364 00:21:53,756 --> 00:21:56,596 Speaker 1: texts you on social media, but once you meet him, 365 00:21:56,836 --> 00:22:00,796 Speaker 1: usually you find the common ground and you can humanly 366 00:22:01,036 --> 00:22:04,316 Speaker 1: discuss about things. So meet people in real life. That's 367 00:22:04,356 --> 00:22:07,676 Speaker 1: another piece of advice. Yeah, what about what kinds of 368 00:22:07,796 --> 00:22:11,516 Speaker 1: tools do you use? What kinds of messaging? So of course, 369 00:22:11,636 --> 00:22:13,716 Speaker 1: I mean you always go with the newest strengths. So 370 00:22:14,036 --> 00:22:17,356 Speaker 1: if you if it is Instagram, it's Instagram. If it's Twitter, 371 00:22:17,476 --> 00:22:20,636 Speaker 1: it's Twitter, and you can The most important is that 372 00:22:20,716 --> 00:22:25,636 Speaker 1: you somehow managed to translate your complex message maybe or 373 00:22:25,796 --> 00:22:30,396 Speaker 1: argument into an understandable message so people can actually take it. 374 00:22:30,516 --> 00:22:32,676 Speaker 1: And I'm not saying this because I think people are stupid. 375 00:22:32,956 --> 00:22:34,796 Speaker 1: We have to do the work. We need to approach 376 00:22:34,876 --> 00:22:37,876 Speaker 1: them and to explain it, you know. So that's to 377 00:22:37,956 --> 00:22:40,476 Speaker 1: explain it in a in a fast and easy way, 378 00:22:41,036 --> 00:22:43,596 Speaker 1: in the ways that people find most accessible. So yeah, 379 00:22:43,636 --> 00:22:47,436 Speaker 1: and whatever it is, commuter tabloids, right, or Internet memes 380 00:22:47,516 --> 00:22:50,516 Speaker 1: and maybe even a fun way. Right you mentioned the memes, 381 00:22:51,196 --> 00:22:54,556 Speaker 1: the short videos something which is fun that people love 382 00:22:54,676 --> 00:22:57,076 Speaker 1: to look. I mean people love to look cat videos 383 00:22:57,156 --> 00:23:00,236 Speaker 1: so and they are only twenty seconds long, so we 384 00:23:00,556 --> 00:23:04,196 Speaker 1: you know that's so you made cat videos. We already 385 00:23:04,236 --> 00:23:08,116 Speaker 1: worked with cat videos. Yes, is there somebody who inspired you? 386 00:23:08,436 --> 00:23:11,836 Speaker 1: The most firing figures were always resistant fighters, for example, 387 00:23:12,316 --> 00:23:16,756 Speaker 1: who fought the fishist regimes in the twentieth century. That's 388 00:23:17,036 --> 00:23:19,076 Speaker 1: why I do what I do. I don't want us 389 00:23:19,116 --> 00:23:23,356 Speaker 1: to go that far, because we've seen what human beings 390 00:23:23,436 --> 00:23:26,196 Speaker 1: can do to our society. To meet starts at a 391 00:23:26,236 --> 00:23:28,916 Speaker 1: different point where we really need to figure out what 392 00:23:29,036 --> 00:23:31,396 Speaker 1: are the basic elements of a society. And to me, 393 00:23:31,516 --> 00:23:35,836 Speaker 1: this really is personal contact. This is neighborhood, this is family. 394 00:23:36,196 --> 00:23:39,796 Speaker 1: Maybe this is just some close relationship to other individuals 395 00:23:40,316 --> 00:23:43,276 Speaker 1: which are not only like minded. Maybe I think this 396 00:23:43,516 --> 00:23:46,476 Speaker 1: is something that that has changed a lot, at least 397 00:23:46,556 --> 00:23:49,916 Speaker 1: how I perceive it, and we should really make sure 398 00:23:50,116 --> 00:23:54,236 Speaker 1: that we reach out to people who have a different 399 00:23:54,836 --> 00:23:59,356 Speaker 1: mindset or different vision of the future. It's so great 400 00:23:59,396 --> 00:24:02,516 Speaker 1: to hear about that cool young historian's work. I just 401 00:24:02,556 --> 00:24:04,556 Speaker 1: don't know how she manages to be cool and young 402 00:24:04,596 --> 00:24:06,996 Speaker 1: and a historian at the same time. But I'm grateful. 403 00:24:07,756 --> 00:24:10,836 Speaker 1: Standing up and fighting back against the far right means 404 00:24:10,956 --> 00:24:13,756 Speaker 1: no more politeness. You've got to be very much on 405 00:24:13,836 --> 00:24:17,316 Speaker 1: the offensive, and you must lead the narrative. I love 406 00:24:17,356 --> 00:24:21,076 Speaker 1: that Flavia insists on Europeans being proud of and protecting 407 00:24:21,196 --> 00:24:25,036 Speaker 1: institutions that exist because of what we've learned from the past. 408 00:24:25,796 --> 00:24:28,716 Speaker 1: Many citizens don't relate to these institutions and don't often 409 00:24:28,796 --> 00:24:31,836 Speaker 1: understand what they stand for. But that brings her to 410 00:24:32,076 --> 00:24:35,356 Speaker 1: her other point that politics needs to speak directly to 411 00:24:35,516 --> 00:24:39,116 Speaker 1: people's hearts and minds. If we believe that freedom and 412 00:24:39,196 --> 00:24:42,436 Speaker 1: equal rights are necessary for society to prosper as a whole, 413 00:24:42,916 --> 00:24:45,436 Speaker 1: then we've got to say so and back it up 414 00:24:45,436 --> 00:24:48,916 Speaker 1: with action. Oh, Flavia, That quiet swis girl got me 415 00:24:48,996 --> 00:24:57,636 Speaker 1: fired right up. Solvable as a collaboration between Pushkin Industries 416 00:24:57,676 --> 00:25:01,116 Speaker 1: and the Rockefeller Foundation, with production by Talk and Blade. 417 00:25:01,556 --> 00:25:06,076 Speaker 1: Pushkin's executive producer is Mia LaBelle. Engineering by Jason Gambrel 418 00:25:06,196 --> 00:25:11,396 Speaker 1: and the great folks at GSI Studios. Original music composed 419 00:25:11,436 --> 00:25:15,156 Speaker 1: by Pascal Wise. Special thanks to Maggie Taylor, Heather Fame, 420 00:25:15,396 --> 00:25:21,436 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Carlie Migliori, Jacob Weisberg, and Malcolm Gladwell. You 421 00:25:21,556 --> 00:25:25,236 Speaker 1: can learn more about solving Today's biggest problems at Rockefeller 422 00:25:25,316 --> 00:25:31,196 Speaker 1: Foundation dot org slash Solvable. I'm Mave Higgins now go 423 00:25:31,636 --> 00:25:32,076 Speaker 1: solve it.