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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.

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Speaker 2: In the last hours.

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Speaker 3: We are learning more and more about the Brian Coburger prosecution.

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Speaker 3: As all of you legal eagles know now, Coburger will

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Speaker 3: face trial and the murders of four beautiful University Idaho students.

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Speaker 3: I had the opportunity to meet alone with the mom

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Speaker 3: of Ethan Chapin. Her resiliency is amazing after what all

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Speaker 3: she and the other victims families have been through, and

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Speaker 3: on the footsteps of that meeting that I will never forget.

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Speaker 3: We are learning more and more about the crime scene,

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Speaker 3: and I only wonder if all the parents are privy

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Speaker 3: to very very disturbing information that we are learning. For instance,

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Speaker 3: allegations that one of the victims was essentially trapped and

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Speaker 3: couldn't get away that many believe Maddie Madison Mogan was

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Speaker 3: the intended victim. Why this as the court is actually

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Speaker 3: considering a closed courtroom for various hearings where no one

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Speaker 3: can be present, which is contrary to everything that the

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Speaker 3: justice system stands for open courtrooms. That there may very

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Speaker 3: well not be cameras in the courtroom so we can't

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Speaker 3: see what's happening as the case unfolds. And of course,

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Speaker 3: as you know, the defense has withdrawn the demand for

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Speaker 3: speedy trial. This case on hold for indefinitely as the

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Speaker 3: question looms, is Brian Coburger actually an incel and involuntary

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Speaker 3: celibate leading to intense hatred of women? I mean, see Grace,

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Speaker 3: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us

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Speaker 3: here at Fox Nation. In series XEM one eleven, take

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Speaker 3: a listen to Christy and Steve Gonsalvus on forty eight hours.

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Speaker 4: The bed was up against the wall, headboard was touching

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Speaker 4: the wall, and the left side of the bed was

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Speaker 4: touching the wall. And we believe that Maddy was on

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Speaker 4: the outside and Keithley was on the inside.

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Speaker 5: According to coroner Mabbitt, the killer's first victim was Mattie,

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Speaker 5: says Steve, and then from Mattie he moved on.

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Speaker 6: To your daughter.

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Speaker 5: You believe she had awakened at that point.

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Speaker 7: Yes, yeah, there's evidence a show that she awake and

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Speaker 7: didn't try to get out.

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Speaker 6: Of that situation.

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Speaker 4: The way the bed was set up is a I

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Speaker 4: was trapped.

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Speaker 8: She was trapped.

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Speaker 1: Oh my stars.

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Speaker 3: When I'm hearing this, I'm just imagining based on what

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Speaker 3: the gonsovices are saying and they are privy to information

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Speaker 3: to which we don't have access. They believe their daughter

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Speaker 3: was trapped, that Coburger did not anticipate Maddie Mogan having

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Speaker 3: anyone else in the room. Is that what they're saying?

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Speaker 3: With me an all star panel to make sense of

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Speaker 3: what we are learning? First of all, to Rachel Silkey,

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Speaker 3: breaking news reporter for the Washington Examiner. Rachel, thank you

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Speaker 3: for being with us. What is he saying? What is

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Speaker 3: mister Gonsovist saying?

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Speaker 9: Well, he's thinking that there is evidence that maybe his

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Speaker 9: daughter's best friend was the target, and that his daughter

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Speaker 9: just was an unfortunate victim of a horrible crime, and

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Speaker 9: that it's possible that he only wanted to kill one person,

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Speaker 9: and just the way events unfolded, he ended.

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Speaker 2: Up killing for I'm not sure that.

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Speaker 3: I could buy into his theory that one of the

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Speaker 3: girls was the intended victim and that finding two girls

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Speaker 3: in one room made him think he had to kill

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Speaker 3: the other person, which would have been killing. But then

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Speaker 3: why go on to other rooms and kill more people?

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Speaker 2: With me? As I said, an All Star panel right now.

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Speaker 3: To Professor Forensics Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath

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Speaker 3: My feet on Amazon and starting a hit series Body

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Speaker 3: Bags with Joe Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan joining us. Joe Scott explained to me.

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Speaker 3: The significance of the furniture possibly being moved one bed

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Speaker 3: pushed away. The bed was set up according to mister

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Speaker 3: consolvice trapping his daughter.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, the bed is essentially cornered, if you will, so

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Speaker 6: you've got one. If you imagine the right, if you're

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Speaker 6: laying on the bed, right over your right shoulder, that

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Speaker 6: corner of the bed would be pressed against the wall.

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Speaker 2: Right, Say that again very slowly so we can all envision.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, sure, sure, no problem. So if you're laying in

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Speaker 6: your own bed at home, just imagine you're laying in

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Speaker 6: your bed and if you imagine over your right shoulder,

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Speaker 6: the head of the bed is cornered in the right

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Speaker 6: corner of the room. Okay. That what happens is that

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Speaker 6: creates a barrier where you have a wall immediate to

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Speaker 6: your right. Then you'll have the wall behind your head.

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Speaker 6: So there's only two ways to actually escape out of

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Speaker 6: that bed. Either you go over the foot of the bed,

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Speaker 6: which I believe is adjacent to the doorway, or or

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Speaker 6: you go off of the left side of the bed.

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Speaker 6: And if there is unfortunately in this case, what they

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Speaker 6: are saying, at least allegedly is that you have one

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Speaker 6: victim that is to cease to the left or the

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Speaker 6: outer aspect of the bed.

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Speaker 10: Uh.

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Speaker 6: And if you have some savage that is on top

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Speaker 6: of you in this environment, he's pressing you down. He

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Speaker 6: may be leaning over the body of an individual that's

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Speaker 6: already deceased, and he's attacking you. There's no where to go, Nancy.

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Speaker 11: Uh.

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Speaker 6: These are they're they're not big, robust, muscular women. These

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Speaker 6: are you know, kind of diminutive ladies that are in

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Speaker 6: this bed. The attacker is probably rather large. Uh. And

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Speaker 6: he's wielding a knife. And just imagine the thing that's

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Speaker 6: always come to mind with me with this knife attack

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Speaker 6: is almost like a classic sewing machine where the needle

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Speaker 6: goes up and down, up and down. And this this

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Speaker 6: is what you have where you have this attack that's

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Speaker 6: going on simultaneously between the two individuals. You're gonna have

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Speaker 6: somebody in this particular case, well refer who referred to

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Speaker 6: as Kayley, She's gonna have an awareness that she's being attacked. Nancy.

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Speaker 6: Her paint centers are firing. She's trying to get away. Maybe,

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Speaker 6: and this is only a maybe, she has this awareness

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Speaker 6: that evidence is is perhaps that she's raising her arms

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Speaker 6: up to try to get away, to find him off,

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Speaker 6: and I would imagine she has some pretty ghastly defensive angers.

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Speaker 3: I want to hear that sound again, if you don't mind, Jackie.

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Speaker 3: This is mister and missus Goldsalves. This is of course

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Speaker 3: Keale Gondsoalve is his parents speaking to forty eight hours

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Speaker 3: and I want to take in everything they're saying.

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Speaker 4: Listen, the bed was up against the wall, edboard was

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Speaker 4: touching the wall, and the left side of the bed

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Speaker 4: was touching the wall. And we believe that Maddie was

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Speaker 4: on the outside and Kelley was on the inside.

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Speaker 5: According to Corener Mabbitt, the killer's first victim was Mattie,

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Speaker 5: says Steve, and then from Mattie he moved on.

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Speaker 6: To your daughter.

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Speaker 5: You believe she had awakened at that point, yes.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, there's evidence to show that she awake and didn't

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Speaker 7: try to get out.

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Speaker 6: Of that situation.

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Speaker 4: The way the bed was set up is what I

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Speaker 4: was trapped.

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Speaker 2: She was trapped.

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Speaker 3: Maddie is being identified by Corner Mabbott as the first victim.

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Speaker 3: When there are multiple stabbings of multiple victims, it's very

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Speaker 3: hard to determine based on the injuries to the bodies alone,

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Speaker 3: who's the first victim chronologically With me Cheryl McCollum joining us,

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Speaker 3: founder director of the Cold Case Research Institute, you can

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Speaker 3: find her at coldcasecrimes dot org. For expert and host

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Speaker 3: of a new hit series, Zone seven podcast, Cheryl, there

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Speaker 3: are extrinsic ways, not just the injuries to the body,

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Speaker 3: not just those injuries themselves, to determine his common sensical

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Speaker 3: who was the first victim?

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Speaker 2: Explained well, Number.

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Speaker 12: One, it was her bedroom that he enterchurched.

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Speaker 3: That's assuming he knew and had identified who would be

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Speaker 3: his first victim and knew which one was their bedroom.

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Speaker 12: Correct. But again, when you've got somebody that enters on

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Speaker 12: the second floor and goes to the third floor first,

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Speaker 12: that was his target. He went where he wanted to

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Speaker 12: go first for a reason, that's the order he chose.

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Speaker 12: The other thing is she's probably not going to have

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Speaker 12: any defensive wounds because she was asleep, whereas you know

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Speaker 12: Kaylee would probably have some because she did wake up.

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Speaker 12: But there's another factor not just the wall where the

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Speaker 12: bed was up against the wall. But keep in mind

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Speaker 12: she was under covers, so if he put his knees

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Speaker 12: on that bed at all, those covers also helped trap her.

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Speaker 12: So there would be injuries to the sheets, to the comforter,

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Speaker 12: to her you know, pajamas in some way. So those

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Speaker 12: are the kind of things we're looking for that he

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Speaker 12: enters the home on the second floor, goes up the stairs.

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Speaker 12: There's no reason if he's just entering that house to

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Speaker 12: kill people, then he would go up those stairs. That

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Speaker 12: to me is for a target. He enters her room first,

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Speaker 12: that's the target.

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Speaker 1: Prime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 3: To you, Joe Scott Morgan, I agree with everything Cheryl

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Speaker 3: McCollum has just said. The medical examiner in the corner

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Speaker 3: has stated to him is clear Mattie was the first victim.

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking in addition to what Cheryl said, that we

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Speaker 3: see other clues such as, let's hypothesize if Mattie was

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Speaker 3: the first victim, that would make Kelly Glensavas the second victim.

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Speaker 3: They were in the same bed together, their DNA could

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Speaker 3: be on the knife as it stabbed the other victims,

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Speaker 3: so that would indicate they were stabbed first, their DNA

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Speaker 3: on that knife would absolutely be transferred to victims three

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Speaker 3: and four, and of course that's Xana Crenodle and Ethan

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Speaker 3: Chapin wait. I had another thought. I wanted to run

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Speaker 3: by you, yes, ma'am. Of course, the other two victims

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Speaker 3: could very well still be asleep. They may not have

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Speaker 3: heard the first two victims be killed. There may not

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Speaker 3: have been any crying or screaming because it was at night.

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Speaker 3: Everybody was sleepy in bed. But thinking of the order

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Speaker 3: of the victims. Also, where was the knife found Joe

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Speaker 3: Scott under which victim.

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Speaker 6: Well, sheath was found I think adjacent to Maddie's leg

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Speaker 6: in the bed, so that would put the sheath itself

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Speaker 6: at the foot of the.

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Speaker 2: Bed when it was first unsheathed. Maybe yeah.

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Speaker 6: And you know that's my big contention here, Nancy. I

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Speaker 6: bought one of these knives, just FYI in one of

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Speaker 6: these cave are USMC combat and eyes. I bought it.

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Speaker 6: I just I wanted to feel what it felt like,

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Speaker 6: to see what the ability are, what the potential might be.

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Speaker 6: And you know, everybody goes on and on about the

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Speaker 6: snap and about the DNA and what was really fascinating

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Speaker 6: to me, Nancy was the fact that this seems kind

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Speaker 6: of gigantic and belt loop on it, and I'm thinking,

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Speaker 6: why the heck are you holding a knife sheet? Why

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Speaker 6: is it? If you're being so very careful? First off,

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Speaker 6: did you forget your belt when you walked out of

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Speaker 6: the house. Are you wearing clothing perhaps that doesn't have

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Speaker 6: belt loose, like I don't know, a jump suit, you know,

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Speaker 6: like if you go buy at a big box store

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Speaker 6: just to throw on over your clothing. Remember what we're hearing,

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Speaker 6: we've heard dark clothing. That has been repeated. But why

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Speaker 6: would you just leave the knife sheet there on the bed?

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Speaker 6: You've gone to all of this trouble, as Mac and mentioned,

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Speaker 6: to creep up to that third story, you know, under

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Speaker 6: the cover of darkness here you've waited for the lights

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Speaker 6: to go out, and then dramatically you go to the

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Speaker 6: end of the bed and you know, unsheath this knife

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Speaker 6: and then drop it and leave it behind. Why don't

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Speaker 6: you have the same fastintee?

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Speaker 3: Well, I wonder if when he sat down wearing the

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Speaker 3: knife sheath, if he had it misplaced on his belt,

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Speaker 3: it would have you know, come forward when you have

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Speaker 3: a knife sheath on and the wrong it's going to

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Speaker 3: be in the right place on your belt. If you

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Speaker 3: have it, for instance, right in front of you and

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Speaker 3: you sit down, it's going to poke straight out.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 6: No, no, no, no, no.

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Speaker 9: It's not a clip.

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Speaker 6: It's this is something that a leather loop that you

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Speaker 6: run your belt through. This thing is robust, Nancy. This

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Speaker 6: thing is made for combat. Marines are issued these things.

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Speaker 6: There are a lot of Marine buddies that still have

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Speaker 6: theirs that they were issued these, and these things are robust.

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Speaker 6: They're meant to go into jungle environments.

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Speaker 3: You're right, why did he take off the knife sheath?

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Speaker 3: And it is knife sheath, not the knife itself. I

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Speaker 3: was thinking knife earlier. It's the knife sheath left behind

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Speaker 3: with Coburger's DNA on the snap take to listen to

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Speaker 3: more of what mister and missus Gonsolvas have to say

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Speaker 3: to forty eight hours.

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Speaker 7: He had to know when people are coming, people are going.

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Speaker 4: I think that he at least had opened that door,

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Speaker 4: went in, tested the waters, looked around.

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Speaker 5: Steve says, the coroner told him the killer's rampage started

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Speaker 5: on the third floor, where both Maddie and Kaylee had

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Speaker 5: their bedrooms. Christy thinks he wasn't expecting to find the

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Speaker 5: two friends together in the same bed.

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Speaker 4: I do think that his planine awry. I do think that,

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Speaker 4: you know, he intended to kill one and killed four.

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Speaker 3: Let's think about that, Rachel Schilkey joining me from the

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Speaker 3: Washington Examiner. Isn't it correct that Kela Gonsolvis already had

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Speaker 3: a job and she had come back that weekend to

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Speaker 3: show her former roommates her new car.

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Speaker 9: Yes, that's true. I remember. That was One of the

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Speaker 9: things that shocked me and saddened me about this chase

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Speaker 9: is that she wasn't even supposed to be there. I

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Speaker 9: think her name was still on the leave. I think

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Speaker 9: goes details are a little fissue, but her name was there

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Speaker 9: so she could come and go from the house if

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Speaker 9: she pleased. But she was already gone. You know, she

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Speaker 9: had things going on. She just came back to see

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Speaker 9: her best friend and never got to leave, which is

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Speaker 9: so incredibly sad.

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Speaker 3: Yes, well, put Rachel Shilkey, I want to hear that

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Speaker 3: one more time. What the gold solvices are saying about

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Speaker 3: the order of their murders.

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Speaker 2: Does it matter?

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Speaker 3: Yes, actually it does. When this finally goes to trial.

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Speaker 7: Listen, he had to know when people are coming, people

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Speaker 7: are going.

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Speaker 4: I think that he at least had opened that door,

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Speaker 4: went in, tested the waters, looked around.

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Speaker 5: Steve says the coroner told him the killers rampage started

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Speaker 5: on the third floor, where both Maddie and Kaylee had

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Speaker 5: their bedrooms. Christy thinks he wasn't expecting to find the

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Speaker 5: two friends together in the same.

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Speaker 4: Bed I do think that his Planlin awry. I do

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Speaker 4: think that you know he and need to kill one

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Speaker 4: and killed four.

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Speaker 2: Okay, does that make sense?

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Speaker 3: Part of that I agree with, But why would you

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Speaker 3: go on to kill two more people that had not

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Speaker 3: been alerted to your presence. Tara Malik is joining US

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Speaker 3: attorney co owner of Smith and Malik, former state and

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Speaker 3: federal prosecutor at Smith Mallick dot com. Tara, thank you

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Speaker 3: for being with us. What would be the rationale of

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Speaker 3: killing two other people that were not alerted to your presence?

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Speaker 8: Well, we simply just don't know enough yet. I mean,

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Speaker 8: they may have been alerted to the presence. He may

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Speaker 8: have gone on some sort of killing spree. You know,

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Speaker 8: he's got these two people that are in his clutches.

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Speaker 12: He may have.

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Speaker 8: Gotten some sort of weird adrenaline rush or you know,

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Speaker 8: high off of taking these two lives and moved on

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Speaker 8: to other people in the house. I mean, if you're

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Speaker 8: a killer who's going into a house and perhaps you're

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Speaker 8: caught off guard by the fact that there's more than

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Speaker 8: one person, you may have had one person as a

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Speaker 8: target in mind. You may start panicking and being worried

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Speaker 8: about the fact that you're going to have witnesses, other

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Speaker 8: witnesses who may be present in this house that you

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Speaker 8: weren't expecting, and maybe you're intended to get rid of

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Speaker 8: those and really try and get away from this situation

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Speaker 8: without leaving a trace. And if Coburger is and was

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Speaker 8: the killer, and if he's the type of person who

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Speaker 8: was obsessed with evidence and committing the perfect type of crime,

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Speaker 8: that may be been a thought that was running through

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Speaker 8: his head.

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Speaker 3: Let me ask you this, guys. Tara Malik is a

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Speaker 3: veteran trial lawyer. Does it make a difference? And I

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Speaker 3: believe it does. And I've got a reason for saying

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Speaker 3: that that you are able to tell a jury the

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Speaker 3: chronological order.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I think it does make a difference. I mean,

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Speaker 8: when you're presenting a case to a jury, they even

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Speaker 8: though one of the elements isn't the chronological order of

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Speaker 8: what occur the jury, the jury is going to want

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Speaker 8: you to paint a picture for them of what occurred,

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Speaker 8: when and where. They're going to want those types of answers.

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Speaker 8: This presentation of evidence has to make sense to this jury.

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Speaker 8: You're trying to convince them beyond a reasonable doubt that

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Speaker 8: this person has committed the crime here, and so you're

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Speaker 8: going to have to track this person's movement throughout this house.

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Speaker 8: You're going to have to track the evidence throughout this

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Speaker 8: house and paint that picture for them as gruesome as

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Speaker 8: it may be here. So for all of those reasons,

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Speaker 8: I think it's very essential for this jury to understand

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Speaker 8: whatever jury's picked for this trial, to understand what occurred

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Speaker 8: in exactly what order it occurred in and when. When

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Speaker 8: you're tracing kind of the forensic evidence and details of it,

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Speaker 8: you know you've got you've got a witness, a roommate

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Speaker 8: who was not killed, and they're going to be part

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Speaker 8: of this story as well, and they're going to be

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Speaker 8: presenting what they saw purportedly in this house too.

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Speaker 2: So when you're explaining this to a jury.

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Speaker 3: You have to have your story down and it has

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Speaker 3: to coincide with the physical evidence or the defense will

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Speaker 3: tear it up when they get the witness on cross examined.

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Speaker 2: The witnesses on cross examination.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Carla Manley joining US clinical psychologist and author of

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Speaker 3: Dates Smart at doctor Carlamanley dot com, Doctor Carla, many

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Speaker 3: people believe that there's a certain order and a certain

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Speaker 3: method that Coburger had to the murder's weigh in.

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Speaker 11: Absolutely, and it makes sense when you look at someone

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Speaker 11: like mister Coberger who has in cell tendencies where there

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Speaker 11: is underlying misogyny, and one would imagine and this is

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Speaker 11: the part that gets my stomach when I think about

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Speaker 11: this individual that calculating cold, merciless elements, it's obvious be

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Speaker 11: present where there are strong not diagnosing him, but strong,

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Speaker 11: clearly strong antisocial tendencies. We can see that moving from

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Speaker 11: the intended victim and then another and then another. That

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Speaker 11: is part of that mindset, that pervasive mindset that arises

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Speaker 11: from him wanting to have control of some sort over

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Speaker 11: his environment. And if indeed he is an in cell

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Speaker 11: feeling rejected, feeling unwanted, and that rage that can come

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Speaker 11: with that in cell personality type. It is actually terrifying

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Speaker 11: and so unfortunate pretty young women.

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Speaker 3: The disturbing theory of the existence of a quote kill

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Speaker 3: kit kill kit has reared its ugly head. Take a

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Speaker 3: list an hour, cut five five, four gonsolvices.

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Speaker 2: Again. He was there to kill. He came in with

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Speaker 2: a kit. I believe he had to kill kid.

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Speaker 5: And you believe that everything right down to the implement

359
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Speaker 5: of destruction, this large marine knife, that was all planned.

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Speaker 2: All planned. This is inhumane.

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Speaker 7: You wouldn't do these type of things to any living creature,

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Speaker 7: let alone an innocent human being.

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Speaker 3: We've heard of kill kits before. Take a list now,

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Speaker 3: cut seventeen B from ABC. We're talking about a prolific

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Speaker 3: serial killer, Istoriel Keys, who had kill kits hidden all

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Speaker 3: over the country.

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Speaker 10: And he told agents something they'd never heard before, that

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Speaker 10: he left kill kits or caches buried in several states

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Speaker 10: filled with everything he'd need to commit a murder. They

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Speaker 10: were in waterproof containers or five gallon buckets and included

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Speaker 10: guns and different things he could use to dispose of bodies.

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Speaker 10: His strategy to grab people in remote locations like parks, campgrounds,

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Speaker 10: even cemeteries. You might I get exactly what you're a

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Speaker 10: non mescal juice film in a matter of speaking.

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Speaker 6: But there's also no wis is really deals.

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Speaker 3: Around, not just Israel keys, not potentially just Brian Koberger

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Speaker 3: that has kill kits. I'm sure you all have heard

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Speaker 3: of BTK buying torture kill Dennis Raider, the dogcatcher killer,

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Speaker 3: who's responsible for so many murders and we're still attributing

380
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Speaker 3: murders to him. Take a listen hour cut four nine B.

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Speaker 3: This is his daughter speaking to Fox.

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Speaker 13: He had hit kits, and so we're seeing with Rex

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Speaker 13: Huerman like handcuffs. My father had like fannyback fanny packs

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Speaker 13: with like handcuffs and rope ties like bondage scare bandanas.

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Speaker 13: In hindsight, I actually did see my father's hit kit

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Speaker 13: from the eighty five murder down the street. It was

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Speaker 13: a bowling bag.

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Speaker 2: It was like he didn't bowl, and.

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Speaker 13: So that was weird in hindsight, But at the time,

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Speaker 13: my dad.

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Speaker 2: Just had a lot of weird oddity bags of grab.

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Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace too.

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Speaker 3: Cheryl McCollum, cole Case Investigative Research Director, Cheryl what is

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Speaker 3: a kill kit?

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Speaker 12: It's a kid. Well, the person is prepared to do

396
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Speaker 12: what he thinks needs to be done. At a murdercine,

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Speaker 12: it's going to have a weapon and may have something

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Speaker 12: to bind or hold the victim in place. It's going

399
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Speaker 12: to have maybe a tart, a shovel, anything they want

400
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Speaker 12: from A to B to commit this crime. There's no

401
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Speaker 12: question that Coburger came kill ready. He had a mask,

402
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Speaker 12: a hat, dark clothing, a knife, and a sheep. When

403
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Speaker 12: they serve the search ward on his parents house, he

404
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 12: had knives at a glock and again this black face

405
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Speaker 12: mask and black gloves. He had these things. So he

406
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Speaker 12: absolutely planned this and executed it with this kill kit.

407
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Speaker 3: What about it, Joe Scott kit, We've seen it, we've

408
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Speaker 3: heard of it. What would Coburger have had in such

409
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Speaker 3: a kill kit if it did exist?

410
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Speaker 6: If it did exist? My thought, and this is the

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Speaker 6: big thing because people keep talking about DNA and all

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Speaker 6: these sorts of things. What I would be very interested in, Nancy,

413
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Speaker 6: is were there any kind of barriers, like clothing barriers

414
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 6: he would have had in there to change to change with,

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Speaker 6: something to put distance like garbage bags, for instance. If

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Speaker 6: you're trying to do a quick change because I can

417
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Speaker 6: tell you this and forgive me, because this is absolutely

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Speaker 6: the stuff of nightmares. What was perpetrated within that environment,

419
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Speaker 6: and it has been alluded to, is an absolute and

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Speaker 6: total bloodbath. There is no way, and I mean no

421
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Speaker 6: one under God's green earth that someone could have exited

422
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Speaker 6: that dwelling without having been just effuse with blood period

423
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Speaker 6: in the story, they would have had it all over them,

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Speaker 6: because can't be in this close a contact with living

425
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Speaker 6: victims where they are fighting against you. You're saving them repeatedly,

426
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 6: over and over and over again, and then you're going

427
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Speaker 6: to walk through the house down into that next landing

428
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Speaker 6: area and repeat this again. Because those injuries on Xana

429
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Speaker 6: and Ethan had reportedly been as equally as savage, so

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Speaker 6: it I'm not going to say it's like taking a

431
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 6: bucket of paint dumping it on yourself, but you're gonna

432
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Speaker 6: have blood on you. What's happened to all that blood

433
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Speaker 6: and what happened to everything that was on him? Did

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Speaker 6: he have the ability to change clothes just outside the house.

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Speaker 3: The idea of a kill kit is absolutely going to

436
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Speaker 3: go to any type of premeditation. Of course, simply walking

437
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Speaker 3: into the home with the knife sheet shows premeditation. Premeditation,

438
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 3: of course, can be formed in the twin lego n

439
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 3: I just like that it's not some long drawn out plan.

440
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 3: But apparently here there was a long drawn out plan premeditation.

441
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 3: Tara Malik, high profile lawyer. Joining of this jurisdiction is

442
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 3: really key here. Agreat or disagree?

443
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 8: Absolutely, agree, absolutely, I mean it goes to so many things.

444
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 8: But again, you know, this prosecution team is going to

445
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 8: have to pick a picture for this jury. And remember,

446
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 8: the death penalty is on the table here. The prosecution

447
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,919
Speaker 8: has indicated that they are going to be seeking the

448
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 8: death penalty, so they're going to have to be showing

449
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 8: that this was a you know, this was a crime

450
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 8: that was really over and beyond what we would even

451
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 8: consider quote unquote normal into the realm of absolutely heinous.

452
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 8: And to go in and take the lives of four

453
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 8: of them is bad enough, but to go in with

454
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 8: this idea that you're going to take multiple lives, to

455
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 8: have a plan in place, to have this intent, really

456
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 8: does catapult it into a different category of crime as well.

457
00:26:55,119 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 3: You heard doctor Carla Many earlier refer to Brian Coburger

458
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 3: as an inceel an involuntary celibate. Now we've heard that

459
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 3: many many times, that phrase a phraseology. I guess the

460
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 3: single most well known or notorious in cell would be

461
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 3: Elliott Rogers, a so called virgin killer.

462
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 2: Take list an hour, cut three B.

463
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 14: On the day of retribution, I am going to enter

464
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 14: the hottest sorority house of UCSB, and I will slaughter

465
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 14: every single spoiled, stuck up, blonde slut. I see inside there,

466
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 14: all those girls that I've desired so much. They would

467
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 14: have all rejected me and looked down upon me as

468
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 14: an inferior man if I ever made a sexual evance

469
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 14: towards them. While they throw themselves at these obnoxious brutes,

470
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 14: I'll take great pleasure in slaughtering all of you. You

471
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 14: will finally see that I am, in truth, the superior one,

472
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 14: the true alpha male. Yes, after I've annihilated every single

473
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 14: girl in the sorority house, I'll take to the streets

474
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 14: of Ela Vista and slay every single person I see there.

475
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 3: Doctor Carla Maley joining a clinical psychologist and author of

476
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 3: Date Smart, Transform Your Relationships, Love Fearlessly, Doctor Carla, what

477
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 3: is an insult?

478
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 11: An intel is a male who is involuntarily fell a

479
00:28:54,680 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 11: bit and that's the key piece. It's the involuntary aspect

480
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 11: that can make an in cell so angry and violent and.

481
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 12: Filled with rage.

482
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 11: And in fact, we sometimes talk about in cell rage,

483
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 11: and there are individuals who are in cells who even

484
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 11: claim that them being denied their sexual wants is a

485
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 11: reverse rape. And that is how distorted their thinking can

486
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 11: become because again of the feelings of rejection and not

487
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 11: getting what they want, and that pursuit of being the

488
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 11: alpha male, that man in their dreams who has every

489
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 11: woman and has all of the sorority girls, or whatever

490
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 11: it is in their mindset that they deserve. They can

491
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 11: act out in such heinous ways because they feel deprived

492
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 11: and unjustifiably so in their mind to.

493
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 3: You, Cheryl McCollum, what evidence, if any, is there that

494
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 3: Coburger in fact an involuntary celibate and in so well.

495
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 12: I think some of the friends that have come forward

496
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 12: to saying that you know, he was rejected by women.

497
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 12: He would go to bars and stare at women and

498
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 12: make inappropriate comments that even one of the managers at

499
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 12: a local.

500
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 8: Bar had to tell him, Hey, if you.

501
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 12: Are going to say weird creepy stuff to women, we

502
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 12: don't want you back in here, and Coburger, you know,

503
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 12: tried to say, hey, you've got the wrong guy, but

504
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 12: then never came back to that bar. Some people have

505
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 12: claimed that he has reached out over social media and

506
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 12: you know, hit people up on their dms and never

507
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 12: got responses. So there is some evidence that he has

508
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 12: not had a steady girlfriend. Ever, no woman has ever

509
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 12: come forward saying that she was a former girlfriend or

510
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 12: a current girlfriend. So there's evidence that he you know,

511
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 12: not by his own deteam with a loan.

512
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 3: To Rachel Shilkey joining us when they Washington Examiner or

513
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 3: agree or disagree regarding evident that Coburger is in fact

514
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 3: an in cel in voluntary celibate.

515
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 9: I mean, I think there's evidence to point towards it,

516
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 9: and just kind of what everybody has been saying that

517
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 9: his methods of behavior, and just the interviews that people

518
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 9: have given to multiple outlets who are voluntary voluntarily come

519
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 9: forward and given this information, that is quite a heavy

520
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 9: label to give somebody if you don't have the evidence

521
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 9: to back it up.

522
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right, Rachel Schulkey, You're absolutely right.

523
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 3: There is evidence that he was removed from one particular

524
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 3: assignment and put in another where there were fewer or

525
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 3: no women. There is evidence from people that worked with

526
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 3: him when he was a teaching assistant that he was

527
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 3: very dismissive and very rude, very strict on female students,

528
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 3: and there were actually complaints. There is also claims that

529
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 3: he would stalk or harass women at bars.

530
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 2: It just goes on and on and on.

531
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 3: But you both refer to statements from friends going all

532
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 3: the way back to middle school. Take a listen to

533
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 3: this from our Fox Nation special on Brian Coburger, who

534
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 3: is the I Am blank is the title? After graduated

535
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 3: community college, Coburger moves on to to Sales University, reconnecting

536
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 3: with his childhood friend.

537
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 15: To me, personally, you really opened up more in his

538
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 15: leader college years. We're talking more than we talked in

539
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 15: high school. He called me fairly often.

540
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 3: Billa shares private messages from around this time. One of

541
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 3: the main topics of discussion women and more so.

542
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 15: I think we talked about a lot the dating scene.

543
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 15: I just got kind of really hard. You just having

544
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 15: a time. You know, I'm getting ghosted a lot. I'm

545
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 15: talking to a girl and then and wondering how watch

546
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 15: chitch takes back. Ever, within austry the guy I was

547
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 15: talking to this girl and one of this girls cue

548
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 15: and I thought we hit it often and we didn't.

549
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 15: I guess, so you mean about stuff like that? To me,

550
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 15: I think you just felt frustrated is just the biggest word.

551
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 3: Frustrated, a feeling doctor Chris Mahondi believes is common for

552
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 3: in cells guys. The theory that Brian Coburger is an

553
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 3: in cell partially originates from the fact that, according to

554
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 3: multiple sources, Coburger tried to reach his victims on social

555
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 3: media and was apparently rejected.

556
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 2: Take a listen to our cut five to six two

557
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 2: from crime Online.

558
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 16: Just two weeks before four University of Idaho students were

559
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 16: murdered last November, Brian Cooberg sent a series of messages

560
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 16: to one of the victims on Instagram. An investigator close

561
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 16: to the case tells people in Leidock, an account authorities

562
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 16: believe belonged to Brian Coberger sent a greeting to one

563
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 16: of the female victims, and when he didn't get a reply,

564
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 16: he sent several more messages to her. The source said

565
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 16: he slid into one of the girl's dms several times,

566
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 16: but she didn't respond. Basically, it was just him saying, hey,

567
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 16: how are you? But he did it again and again

568
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 16: and again and never got a reply.

569
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 3: On top of all of this happened, we are now

570
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 3: learning that the judge is trying to close the courtroom.

571
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 3: Take a listen hour cut five six y four First

572
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 3: Amendment lawyer Jack Griner at Long Crime.

573
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 17: The idea of closing the courtroom entirely that the public

574
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 17: can't come in for any purpose is separate apart from

575
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 17: having cameras in the courtroom. That there has to be

576
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 17: a compelling need for the closure, and that there are

577
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,760
Speaker 17: no less restrictive means. So it's up to the state

578
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 17: and the defense, I guess since they both want the

579
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 17: hearing closed, to come to articulate a compelling need for

580
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 17: the closure.

581
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 3: To Rachel Shilkey, is this true? We know that the

582
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 3: trial is not going forward October two. We need that

583
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 3: as soon as the speeding trial demand was withdrawn. But

584
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 3: do you believe that cameras will be banned from the

585
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 3: courtroom as well?

586
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 9: I think it's heading that way. I was listening to

587
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 9: the debate at the court hearing recently, and the jug

588
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 9: is bringing up a lot of different speculations from the

589
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 9: media and kind of saying that the media is perpetuating misinformation, disinformation,

590
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 9: so having cameras might not be helpful to the jury

591
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 9: or to the case at all, you know, I think

592
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 9: that's there's some truth to that, But also I think

593
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 9: that people have a right to see what's going on,

594
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 9: because yes, this is it hits everybody, So.

595
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,240
Speaker 2: We wait as justice unfals.

596
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: Goodbye, sir,