1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Internet hate Machine. I'm Bridget and I'm joined 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: with my producer Sophie, and we are also so thrilled 3 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: to have our very first guest in the studio with us. 4 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: I am joined by the lovely Joel Monique. Joel, thank 5 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: you so much for being here, Hi, Bridget, what's up? 6 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me so Joel. I have to 7 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: start by saying, like, you're a pretty prolific Twitter user. 8 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: What has that been like for you as a black 9 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: woman with a pretty visible public profile on Twitter. I 10 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: really liked Twitter up until recently. Now it's causing me 11 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: headaches because I have to leave it. And I realized 12 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: that what I really like about it was the fact 13 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: that it's just words. How do you think about my image? 14 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to tell you where I've been, Like, 15 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 1: I could just be like I really love this TV 16 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: show or the song rocks or sucks or whatever. You 17 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: can just so easily to share an opinion and it 18 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: can live there and you can respond or not respond, 19 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: and it's been great. And I mean, yes, there have 20 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: always been assholes on Twitter, but my black fingers are strong. 21 00:00:57,760 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: I'm not you know. I know. Maggie was like let 22 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: him talk, and I'm like, I can't. I'm not as 23 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: strong as you my knees nor my emotions. Apparently I 24 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: can't deal with people being mean, and so I just 25 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: blocked heavy and it's been a pretty smooth journey. And 26 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: now man, I'm on not Mams Sabertooth. I know it's Masthodon, Mastodon. 27 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: There it is. I got me one of those don't 28 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: know how to use it yet. I presumeed my TikTok 29 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: name ages ago have never posted anything. So now I'm 30 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,119 Speaker 1: just lurking in there, like do I want to come 31 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 1: to this space? How life? You know? On camera? All 32 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: that much? That frequently you know? And so I just 33 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know what I'm gonna do when 34 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: the trolls take over, but I do, like if I'm 35 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: looking for silver linings. Elon must downfall on this. He 36 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: spent so much money and people, really I can tell 37 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: because my follower account drops every day by like way 38 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: too many of you. I haven't posted anything controversial or like, 39 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: no strong opinions as of late, and so I can 40 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: tell people are like and it's done. The worst part 41 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: those I have a black Lady professional group chat on 42 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: there that has been life saving, got me a lot 43 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: of jobs, got me through a lot of crap, like 44 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: has really helped solidify my career. And that check mark, 45 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: you know, when I first got it, I was freelance 46 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: and it really boosted my profile and gave me a 47 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: lot of access that I didn't have previously. I do 48 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: worry about what's going to happen. You know, we're trying 49 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: to as a group or tegure out like where do 50 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: we go next, and we're just not quite sure what's 51 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: going to have that same kind of connection. So it's 52 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: been a whild ride on Twitter. That's such a good 53 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 1: point that you make about the access, particularly for folks 54 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: and industries that are more traditionally marginalized. It's different for 55 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: us to build up a platform, and it just has 56 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: the stakes are different. And you know, I'm also verified 57 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: on Twitter, and I do think that it's gotten me 58 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: into spaces and gotten me access that I don't think 59 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: I would have otherwise. And so like, if you're an 60 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: editor and I tweet something I've gotten the d M 61 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 1: that's like, oh, do you want to turn this into 62 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: a piece for us? And I would be lying if 63 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: I said that I wasn't going to miss that, But 64 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: you're right, like, who who wants to be on a 65 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: platform that is run by someone who has made it 66 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: clear that they don't really care about the safety of 67 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: the folks who are showing up on a platform like Twitter. 68 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: I knew it was over when he was like, I'm 69 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: going to charge for verification. I was like, well, then 70 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: that defeats the point of verification, Like the check mark 71 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: was there solely. I know a lot of people think 72 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: it was like for a cloud that came with it, 73 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: But the initial thing was like this famous person that 74 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: you think you're talking to, that's actually them If they 75 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: have the check mark, no check mark, you don't know 76 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: who you're talking to. And I wonder like, if I 77 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: set up on account it's called like the Rock, can 78 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: I verify it? And then people think they're talking to 79 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: Dwayne the Rock Johnson, Like there's what value is there 80 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: in that check mark except that and and and the 81 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: cloud that came with it before. Now that you can 82 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: purchase it, I don't think companies or celebrities or anybody 83 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: who was following you because you had that check mark 84 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: is going to continue that behavior. I don't think people 85 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: are going to get booked jobs because they have the 86 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: checkmark once you can pay for it. When the when 87 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: the actual like transition happens and it's and you are 88 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: paying for it, I can't wait to find out who 89 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: actually is paying for it. That will that will because 90 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 1: it was again, unless if I was still freelanced, I 91 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 1: might because without the profile I have now, I think 92 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: I would still consider it because it did, like I said, 93 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: coming so many jobs when I first got it, and 94 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: so I do feel bad for those people who are 95 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: like sort of on the cusp of having like a 96 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: well known career. That checkmark really sort of verifies a 97 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 1: lot for you. But yeah, as of now, like it 98 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: would be weird again unless people really feel the need 99 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: to try to verify, like yes, you're talking to me, 100 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 1: you know. I saw some actor the other day was 101 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: posting about how they don't like social media, but when 102 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 1: it first started, they got concerned messages from parents saying, 103 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: why are you talking to my fifteen year old child, 104 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 1: and they were like, I'm not, and so that caused 105 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: it a whole downward spiral for them. And it's like, yeah, 106 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: to your you know, bridge, and I just don't think 107 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: they care about safety that's clearly not an issue, and 108 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: there's so much danger online. We we've been known. We 109 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: grew up in the early odds. I remember early Internet 110 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: safety danger lessons and news reports, and so it's it's 111 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: weird to me that that's suddenly not a concern. So 112 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: I that's right. That you're talking about is actor Robert 113 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: Kazinski talking about, you know, what verification has meant for 114 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: him and his career as an actor. And I'm so 115 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: glad that you bring all of this up because it 116 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: really dovetails exactly into what I want to talk about today, 117 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: which is that's sort of dirty, messy business of people 118 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: being able to impersonate others on Twitter and the incredibly 119 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: high stakes that it comes with your experiences of maybe 120 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: wanting to leave the platform. Really set us up nicely 121 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: into that conversation because we know that Twitter has not 122 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 1: always banned the most secure platform, has not always delivered 123 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: a very secure experience for its users, and now with 124 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 1: Elon Musk at the helme, I think it's poised to 125 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,359 Speaker 1: only get worse. And f y I we're recording this 126 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: on a Friday. My understanding is Twitter is planning on 127 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 1: rolling out this new pay to be verified system on Monday, 128 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: so in just a couple of days, the same day 129 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: or like just days before firing half their staff and 130 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: a day before a fucking election. So I'm I'm very concerned, 131 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: and I think that my concerns have real historical precedent, 132 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: which I want to get into right now. So, a 133 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 1: classic bad actor tactic is pretending to be somebody that 134 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: you're not on social media, specifically to create confusion and 135 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: to stabilize online spaces. Right, Like, this is probably not 136 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: a surprise to you, Joel, This is like something we 137 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: all have mainly know, right, yes, And I think something 138 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: that really just burns me up about this is that 139 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,559 Speaker 1: it's very much unknown tactic. Right. The leadership at social 140 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: media platforms like Twitter and Facebook have been made well 141 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: aware that this is a tactic that bad actors used 142 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: to threaten the security of their platforms, but they have 143 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: really done fuck all to prevent it from happening, and, 144 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: in the case of Twitter, or maybe making it easier 145 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: to happen, which is a real head scratcher. So another 146 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: classic bad act or tactic is inflaming existing tensions around 147 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: groups of people who are traditionally marginalized, right and so 148 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: that is a common day. Yeah, who who would have 149 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: guessed it right, that that would be a common tactic 150 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: to distabilized communities. So what happened around End Father's Day, 151 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: around we don't want to talk about today? That's like 152 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:36,239 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why I think it's so important 153 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: because it utilized both of those tactics to hijack and 154 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: exploit conversations around feminism, race, and gender online. And it's 155 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: really concerning because you know, it's concerning that our social 156 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: media platforms are so easily gamified in this way and 157 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: that social media platforms aren't really doing anything to prevent it. 158 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: So let's talk about End Father's Day. To really understand 159 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: what the fun was going on with End Father's Day, 160 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: you really need to understand what Fortune was calling Operation Lollipop, 161 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: and essentially Operations Lollipop was this campaign to create fake 162 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: activist causes on social media. Basically, people on Fortune, trolls, 163 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: bad actors, whatever you want to call them, would pose 164 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: as feminists of color, so like black feminists, brown feminists, etcetera, 165 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: and essentially try to get people to agree with these 166 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: bogus campaigns. They would start and just generally try to 167 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: seed conflict with one another. The whole point is to 168 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:40,599 Speaker 1: create confusion inflame tensions, generally to make feminists look like 169 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 1: a bunch of you know, crazy man haters whose causes 170 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: have no merit and who can't even agree with one another. 171 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: This is so wild when you see it happen just 172 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: organically on your timeline, where you'll be like, so, here's 173 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 1: a picture of you know, some as a black woman, 174 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: sometimes a black man using way too much like currently 175 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: popular and the guy's black lingo, where you're like, they're like, yeah, 176 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: no cap. You be like, I don't know if the 177 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 1: situation necessarily calls for a no cap and yeah, And 178 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,079 Speaker 1: then you go on their page and they follow a 179 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: bunch of people, but maybe only have like a handful 180 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: of followers. Most of their tweets are retweets. It's they 181 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: become easier to spot the more you come across them organically. 182 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: But it's very strange to be like this is this 183 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: like internet black face, and it's annoying and upsetting and 184 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: again ruining these spaces that have you know, I know 185 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: some people don't agree with the idea that there's community 186 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: on these spaces, but I just think that for somebody 187 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: who has found a great group of friends that I 188 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: meet with regularly. I r L who you know again 189 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: uses a space and platforms for for job opportunities, Like 190 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 1: it does feel communal to me, and it does feel 191 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: almost it's just invasive. It's invasive to have people come 192 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 1: into those communities and try to erect them in that way. 193 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: The reason why these bad actors pretending to be black 194 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: women were exposed, it's exactly what you just picked up 195 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: on when they use language where you're like, I don't 196 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: know if a black person would actually say no cab 197 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: in this situation. I don't know that a black person 198 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: would actually say, you know, as a black I think 199 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: Trump is lit little things where you're like, my spidy 200 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: since it's tingling, I don't know if you're a black 201 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: woman like you say you are Twitter user like five 202 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: five six seven. And I think this is one of 203 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: the reasons why I am always kind of screaming from 204 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: the rooftops that this kind of disinformation and media manipulation 205 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: is a clear racial and gender justice issue because bad 206 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:57,559 Speaker 1: actors and trolls know that exploiting and inflaming these legitimate 207 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: like tensions and trigger points per particularly between marginalized groups 208 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: can really work because it does tap into these like 209 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: legitimate traumas and baggage and anxieties that we do have. 210 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: You know, the experience of being a black woman, or 211 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: a queer person, or a trans person, or really any 212 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: kind of marginalized identity in the United States is often 213 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: marked with these very real historical traumas and baggage. And 214 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: so people who are interested in using the Internet to 215 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: spread chaos target marginalized people, and they do it by 216 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,439 Speaker 1: tapping into these existing traumas. And you know, a good 217 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: example is like, as we approach the midterm elections, the 218 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: kind of disinformation that we're seeing around the election is 219 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: really meant to dissuade people of color from voting. You know, 220 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: they tend to do this via things like fogus images 221 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: purporting to show ice making arrests of undocumented people at 222 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: polling places, or you know, images warning that, oh, you know, 223 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: when you go to vote, they're gonna be checking if 224 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: you have outstanding warrants when you do try to vote, right, 225 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: These lies that are clearly meant to tap into very 226 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: real fears and anxieties that black and brown folks have 227 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: around being criminalized in the United States. So it plays 228 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 1: on these like real traumas that we have in ways 229 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: that exploit these things, these like tensions that we carry 230 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: around just by virtue of being a marginalized person in 231 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: the United States. Yeah, it's sinister when you essentially try 232 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: to brainwash someone into acting in their own disinterest, right, 233 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: particularly when we're talking about voting, This idea of if 234 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: you exercise, you're right, there's a threat there and you 235 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: should avoid that threa at all costs. It's it's really cruel. 236 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: And the craziest thing is like when we see a 237 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 1: lot of like who is participating in these acts, Like 238 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: it's either very young kids who've been indoctrinated over many 239 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 1: years YouTube fix your system, or like old people who 240 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: again have been indoctrinated mostly by Fox News slash Fox 241 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: News to feel it's and that sort of gets really 242 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: under my skin, to this idea of either people who 243 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: should know better or people who never had a chance 244 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: to learn better doing so much damage. You know, I'm 245 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: really glad that you framed it that way. It's sometimes 246 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: difficult for me, but I always try to remember that, 247 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: like it's not necessarily the individual, it's like systems and 248 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: institutions that are getting rich and profiting off of, you know, 249 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: misleading individuals in this way. It can be hard to 250 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: remember that when I'm like, why can't you just not 251 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: fall for this? But you're exactly right that sum is 252 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: a very effective tool that is being wielded expertly right now. 253 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: It's hard because you do you do. Your instinct is 254 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,839 Speaker 1: to just get angry about it. You know, I am 255 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: angry about it, But at the same time, I know 256 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: my anger can't resolve the issue. And so my hope 257 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: is that more white mothers, if we're just being very 258 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: honest about it, are figuring out ways to talk to 259 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,319 Speaker 1: their young sons about how to better navigate the internet, 260 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: are making sure they're putting up roadblocks and interventions where necessary. 261 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 1: You know, I think that's the only way we can 262 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: hope to really get ahead of this, because it seems 263 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: to be a wave that isn't stopping anytime soon. Unfortunately. 264 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: I think that you are correct. Um So, when we 265 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: look at end Father's Day and the kind of tensions 266 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: and traumas historically that that campaign really tapped into, it's 267 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: this clear wedge between black women and white women. And 268 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: on the one hand, I kind of get it. You know, 269 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: for a very long time, black feminists have not always 270 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: felt meaningfully represented or centered by white feminists. If you 271 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: look at early the early Suffragette movement, for instance, they 272 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,479 Speaker 1: left black women's voting rights out of their advocacy altogether 273 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: as a strategic turn. It's not your turn, they said, 274 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: we're not for women, we are for white women, exactly right. 275 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: And so when you look a little further in time, 276 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: you know white feminists writing about things like being stuck 277 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: at home with domestic duties, they weren't really talking to 278 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: Black women. They were not centering our lived experience in 279 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: their in their advocacy. In that way, this reminds me 280 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: of the Health when if for listeners, if you don't 281 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: know anything about the help or how it was crafted. Uh, 282 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: a guy, a white man from the South, was essentially 283 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: writing and from the perspective of his childhood maids. And 284 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: when you go into a larger cinematic history and you 285 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: understand birth of a nation and how a lot of 286 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: that was sort of you know, the guy who crafted 287 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: that was so proud of it. He invited again a 288 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: childhood made who taking care of him, who was not 289 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: taking care of his son uh and she she left 290 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: service after that. She said you were a racist and 291 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: this is ridiculous and I'm going to bounce. But yeah, 292 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: this idea that there's so much space available and so 293 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: much um I want to say, like bad blood, but 294 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: definitely four hundred years of oppression and discord that we 295 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: have to advocate. It's a it's an easy place to 296 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: spark a fire, exactly that right, and so these tensions 297 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: are very much still with us today. Author of Mickey Kendall, 298 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: who wrote an excellent book called Hood Feminism, which you 299 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: should definitely get if you have not read it. I 300 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: love it. It's one of my favorite books. Basically, her 301 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: book is all about the ways that white feminism have 302 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: left the most marginalized women behind in their causes. Here's 303 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: Mickey Kendall speaking to now This News about her work 304 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: with hood feminism. Hood feminism is about survival because for 305 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: those who are facing all of these issues from gun 306 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: violence the housing, their first concern has to be staying 307 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: alive long enough to fight for their rights. The movement 308 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: has to do a better job of addressing displacement and 309 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: hunger if it expects support for reproductive justice marches or 310 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: for electing the first woman to be president of the 311 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: United States. It's hard to believe that women will be 312 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: better leaders when the feminist women you've seen gaining power 313 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: not only don't help you, but are likely to actively 314 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: participate in harmony. Okay, I think that gives a good 315 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: sense of it. But Nickey, yes, So Mickey Kendall started 316 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: the hashtag. Hashtag solidarity is for white women to really 317 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: have a real conversation about the ways that feminists, white 318 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 1: feminist namely had really failed Black women. And a great 319 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: example of this is that a sensibly feminist organizations and 320 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: outlets continue to have a relationship with a white male 321 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: writer named Hugo Schweizer. You don't know who that is. 322 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: Hugo Schweiser is a passage or was a Pacadya City 323 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: College professor of history and gender studies, a blogger, and 324 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: a self described male feminist who wrote about feminism. I know, like, 325 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: is there anything more of a warning than someone who 326 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 1: was a self proclaimed male feminist? Right? Uh? And he 327 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: really like he had that's at this time he did 328 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: have a like pretty big footprint on online feminist basis. 329 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: He wrote about feminism for places like The Atlantic and 330 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: Jez bell Um and some other like feminist sites in 331 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: the sort of ecosystem of online feminism back in the 332 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: two fourteen era. Here's a little taste of Hugo speaking 333 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 1: at a slot walk in l A. For too long, 334 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,719 Speaker 1: there's been division in the feminist community over the issues 335 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: of sexuality and sex work, and that's one of the 336 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: things we are here to end today. So I wrote 337 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: a little speech, and I can't read a speech. Um, 338 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: I have to say, it is very difficult to stand 339 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: up here as a man after the stories that you've 340 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: just heard and that I've heard as well. The fact 341 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: is that we've heard a series of very personal, very powerful, 342 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: very painful accounts of sexual violence, and in every one 343 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: of those cases, the violence was committed by men against women. 344 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: And while it is true that men can also be 345 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 1: the victims of sexual violence, and while it is true 346 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: that in a few cases women can be the perpetrators 347 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 1: of sexual violence, there is no question that the vast 348 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 1: majority of sexual violence is men assaulting women. And part 349 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: of the reason why we allow that to continue, and 350 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: part of the reason why the words slut continues to 351 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 1: have its enormous power in our lives, is because of 352 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,360 Speaker 1: a myth we believe in and a myth we need 353 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: to march against today. It's a myth I call the 354 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 1: myth of male weakness. All right, I think you get 355 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: the idea there. So you know something to know about 356 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: Hugo Schweizer is that he his thing was kind of 357 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: being this sort of reformed bad boy, like bad boy 358 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: turned feminist. He wrote, really, yeah, so that was what 359 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 1: like that? That was his like being that I would 360 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 1: say allowed him to kind of grow in his public profile. 361 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: He wrote very openly about how when he was struggling 362 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: with addiction issues, he tried to murder his girlfriend by 363 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: turning on the gas stove in their apartment. And he 364 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 1: also wrote about having sexual flings with his female students 365 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: when he was a professor. So it's interesting that he 366 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 1: would get up on a stage at a slut walk 367 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: and talk about like man, this man of male weakness, 368 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: blah blah blah. Here's the other thing. If you are 369 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: coming to a marginalized community and you are not actively 370 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: a member of that marginalized community, and then you speak 371 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: on behalf of that marginalized community, you have not fully 372 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: done your work or your research, Like there's that time 373 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 1: should have been given to an actual woman, like any 374 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: woman with any kind of sense could have taken that 375 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: spot and done what you did in much much better. Uh. 376 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 1: That is foolish and ridiculous. Yes, absolutely, And you know 377 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,959 Speaker 1: who didn't let any of that ship slide? Black women? 378 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: They were no. Black women have been calling this guy 379 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: out for a very long time, and he was really 380 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 1: able to use this behavior test a mass power at 381 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 1: a public profile in online feminist spaces for a long time. 382 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: When black women would speak up against him, he would 383 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: like attack them pretty pretty horribly on social media. And 384 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: despite all this, he was able to really remain this 385 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: kind of feminist darling writing for you know, ostensibly feminist 386 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: outlets like jez Bell that had this large white woman 387 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: readership and writership. He ended up having this public meltdown 388 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: on Twitter in which he all but admitted all of 389 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 1: this behavior. He talked about how he didn't really have 390 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 1: the educational credentials to be teaching a class on feminism 391 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: at the college level, and yet he did it anyway. 392 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: He talked about how he had been trashing black women 393 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: and he kind of apologized for it and all of that. 394 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:42,719 Speaker 1: So all of these things that black women had been 395 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: accusing him of this whole time and basically have been 396 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: had been going ignored, he admitted in a meltdown on Twitter. 397 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: But it seems like when he admitted all this in 398 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: his meltdown, but the white feminists and the websites who 399 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: who were frequented by those white feminist they didn't really 400 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: take ownership of what they had done to allow him 401 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 1: to build such a platform in these online feminist spaces. 402 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,959 Speaker 1: You know, they weren't really denouncing him like you might 403 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: have expected them too. And they certainly were not, you know, 404 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 1: seeking solidarity or trying to make amends with the women 405 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: that he pretty clearly the black women that he pretty 406 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: clearly harmed. I think there was just this general sense 407 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: of of no accountability and to really move forward, they 408 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: gotta have accountability. And so Mickey Kendall spelled it out 409 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: really well on a piece that she wrote for The Guardian. 410 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: Folks should really read the whole things. It's a great piece, 411 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: but here's a little snippet. She writes, it appeared that 412 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: these feminists were once again dismissing women of color in 413 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: favor of a brand of solidarity that centers on the 414 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: safety and comfort of white women. For it to be 415 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: at the expanse of people who were doing the same 416 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 1: work was exceptionally aggravating. Admittedly, this is not a new problem. 417 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: White feminism has argued that gender should trump race since 418 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: its inception. That rhetoric not only erases the experiences of 419 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: women of color, but also alienates many from a movement 420 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: that claims to want equality for all. This is especially 421 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: clear when posts and articles about racism and feminism from 422 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 1: five years ago involved some of the very same players. 423 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: When I launched the hashtag solidarity as for white women, 424 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 1: I thought it would largely be a discussion between people 425 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: impacted by the latest bout of problematic behavior from mainstream 426 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 1: white feminists. It was intended to be a Twitter shorthand 427 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: for how often feminists of color are told that the 428 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: racism they experience isn't a feminist issue. The first few 429 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 1: tweets reflect the deeply personal impact of such a long 430 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: running structural issue. And damn that that bit really speaks 431 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: to me, because I totally get at this tension in 432 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: this fracture that she is naming and exposing here. Yeah, 433 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: and this is what we used to sit at intersectionality, right, 434 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,639 Speaker 1: It's it's weird because sometimes as black women will or 435 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: you know, as a queer black woman, I'll get the 436 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: same question from black men, like you're gonna put your 437 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: gender or your queerness ahead of your race, which is 438 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: a ridiculous question no matter who it's asked by, because 439 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: we don't get to choose any of it. None of 440 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,360 Speaker 1: it is a decision, none of it can come one 441 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 1: before the other, or like it's all equal. It's always present, 442 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: and that's it's infuriating to have to sometimes link up 443 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: with people who are not um understanding that intersectionality in 444 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: an effort to make things better for you know, a 445 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: community that you're a part of. It's a lot of work. 446 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: It's why we're all tired. I would also say, if 447 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: you're a white feminist in any of this, is you know, 448 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 1: ringing out for you to borrow a quote from a 449 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 1: show that has some of its own feminist issues, but 450 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: you know, desire to be free and not make a 451 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: window in the wall of your own prison. Okay, it's 452 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: really weird to me anyway to rely on a van 453 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:10,199 Speaker 1: to to speak up for your woman community. That's it's 454 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: how did he get on stage? It's very confusing to me. 455 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: It is confusing and honestly, I mean like I had 456 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: to give like major, major props and shouts to Mickey 457 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: Kendall because she was doing the work of exposing these 458 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: fair the same kinds of very real, deep fractures between 459 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 1: black feminists and white feminists that you were just talking about. 460 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: And I need to be like super clear here, Mickey 461 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: Kendall was doing this like important, necessary work of bringing 462 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 1: these tough conversations to the forefront. And it is a 463 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: shame that Twitter as a platform failed Kendall and all 464 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: of these other women who really needed to have this 465 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,959 Speaker 1: conversation failed them all by failing to provide a safe, 466 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: secure platform to have this conversation about these very real 467 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 1: fractures and how they show up in our communities. Right. 468 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,679 Speaker 1: I also think that white feminists really should have done 469 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: a better job of digging into this conversation and taking accountability. 470 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: And it might have they done that, it might not 471 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,360 Speaker 1: have been left this like open wound for bad actors 472 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: to swoop in and exploit. But that is a common 473 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: tactic of bad actors, trolls, extremists whoever, when conversations require 474 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: a little bit of like thoughtfulness or new ones, or 475 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: are just tough conversations to have, so folks don't really 476 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: have them. You can met that these trolls will step 477 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: in and hijack that conversation and exploit it for their 478 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,919 Speaker 1: own means. In this case, their means we're making feminists 479 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: all look bad, and this is the backdrop against which 480 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: Fortune starts their end Father's Day campaign. So basically, trolls 481 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: on board Chane decide they want to pose as black 482 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: feminists and start the hashtag and Father's Day to make 483 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: it seem like black feminists and feminists more generally are 484 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: actually calling to an end to the holiday Father's Day. 485 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: The hashtag Solidarity is for White Women exposed all of 486 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: these rightly raw feelings and tensions between black and white feminists, 487 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 1: which we know are the perfect conditions for bad actors 488 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: to swoop in and inflame those very real, pre existing 489 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 1: tensions within a community. Their goal is to undermine solidarity 490 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: so that when those tensions are exposed like they were 491 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: with Solidarity Is for White Women, bad actors want to 492 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: deepen and exploit those tensions because what they really want 493 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: is chaos. They want people being distrustful of one another, 494 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,880 Speaker 1: people not being able to reach common ground, or move 495 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,439 Speaker 1: forward on any of those big issues that caused those tensions. 496 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: That's the goal. You know, if black women are appearing 497 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: to get on board with a hashtag as silly and 498 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 1: stupid as end Father's Day, maybe some of the white 499 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 1: women looking on are like, well, that's ridiculous, and they 500 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: they start thinking that some of the issues that these 501 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: black feminists are raising are also kind of ridiculous, and 502 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: maybe they start thinking that these black women are not 503 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: worth taking seriously and are not worth meaningfully centering in 504 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: their movement and in their activism. So you can really 505 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: see how bad actors can destabilize a whole community or 506 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: a whole movement through these tensions. So trolls on for 507 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 1: Chane decide that they're going to pose as black feminists 508 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: and try to start the end Father's Day hashtag to 509 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 1: make it look as though black feminists are actually genuinely 510 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: calling for an end to the holiday Father's Day. On June, 511 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: a Furtune user posts this to Fortune. Almost all cases 512 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: of domestic violence, domestic rave, child abuse, adultery, and discontent 513 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: in the home are caused by men i e. Fathers. 514 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: A holiday that celebrates this is another symptom in the 515 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: disease known as patriarchy, and it has no place in 516 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: a progressive society. This is a holiday celebrating misogyny, demanding 517 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: appreciation and gifts for doing what a father should be 518 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: doing anyway, especially when in almost all cases domestic abuse 519 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,239 Speaker 1: stem from the father. Fathers all over the country are 520 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: refusing to pay alimony or child support, which should not 521 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: be celebrated and rewarded, but it should be shamed fathers. 522 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: They should not be about celebrating the role of fathers 523 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,239 Speaker 1: in the family, but about correcting it. It should not 524 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: be celebrated in its current in its present form, we 525 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: are calling on all feminists and social justice warriors to 526 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: join us in a campaign to redefine this disgustingly misogynistic 527 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: holiday and Father's Day in its present form, if not entirely, 528 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: we will be descending on Twitter and Tumblr to get 529 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: this message out that the patriarchal holiday has no place 530 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: in our society. So that's all bullshit, right Like, this 531 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: was them, This was them trying to feed their fake campaign, 532 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: right Like, Like that is definitely not I mean, and 533 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: you could probably almost tell from the way that they've 534 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: written it it's not It's not commentary written in seriousness. 535 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: They're trying to mess with feminists and disrupt online feminist spaces. 536 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: I mean, there's zero logic and it all the idea 537 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: that because there is domestic abuse, then there are no 538 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: good fathers is such a wild and congruent leap that 539 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: it's it's wild that and it took off at all 540 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: even within this zone like group, Like, I don't know, 541 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: you think they want to think these things out a 542 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: little bit more and make um stick, you would think, 543 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: but but but I do think like you're onto something. 544 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: I think the reason why these fake campaigns can kind 545 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: of like have a little bit of stickiness even when 546 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: they're so ridiculous on their face, is because they tend 547 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,959 Speaker 1: to follow this like very specific cycle who have these 548 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: accounts using abbey images of black women purporting to be 549 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: black women tweeting about this campaign, and then real social 550 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: media users start reacting to the hashtag, giving it more 551 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: reach and more visibility and helping it grow. Side note, 552 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: this is a great reason not to engage with hashtags 553 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: that you see popping up on Twitter that might look 554 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: a little bit sass. Another good example would be the 555 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,719 Speaker 1: the Twitter trend hashtag hut for amber that was a 556 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: top trend earlier this year that was purporting to call 557 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: for Amber Heard supporters to self harm in the aftermath 558 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: of the verdict in the defamation trial that she had 559 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: against Johnny Depp or john against her happening. Oh my god. 560 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: So these trends can be like harmful. And what what 561 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: sometimes happens is that people who either are skeptical of 562 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,959 Speaker 1: them or know that they're fake, will tweet using the hashtag, 563 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: calling it out or being like can you believe this? 564 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: And they might think that they're actually, you know, shedding 565 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: light on it, but by engaging with it, they're actually 566 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: just helping it grow. So whenever you see one of 567 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: those hashtags that you're like, this seems us, do not 568 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: engage with it, because nine times out of ten you're 569 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,719 Speaker 1: just helping it get more visibility and helping it spread 570 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: to more people. So the next part of that cycle 571 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: is that it gets picked up in the pressed. In 572 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: this case, first it was smaller right wing blogs like 573 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: The Daily Caller who wrote about it, and then it 574 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: actually made its way to Fox News and they had 575 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: this to say about it. Let's start out as a joke, 576 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: but the hashtag end Father's Day is picking up steam 577 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: with feminists online and with others in social media. Tweets 578 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: like end Father's Day because it's a celebration of patriarchy 579 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: and oppression have been popping up all over the place. 580 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: Let's bring in Susan Patton, a k a. The Princeton Mom. 581 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: She gave notoriety for imploring young women to lock down 582 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 1: their future husbands while still in college. Remember this we 583 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: talked about this morning should be here Like some of 584 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: these tweets, here is from Tasha. She wrote, and everyone 585 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: knows we only need mothers. Why do we even need 586 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: Father's Day? Fathers are useless? Hashtag and oh come on 587 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: you more? Is this nasty feminist rhetoric that they're not 588 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: just interested in ending Father's Day of interesting ending men? 589 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: That's really what they want. It's absurd for them to 590 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: say that Father's Day is a creation of male oppression. 591 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: It's ridiculous. But why is for women? I mean, there's 592 00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: a reason that there are more women living in poverty 593 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: now than it ain's time in my lifetime. Because there 594 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: if you, I mean, when you rush men, you hurt 595 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: women without a doubt. And we're obviously not talking about 596 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 1: celebrating the deadbeat dads are celebrating the men who abandoned 597 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: the family. We're talking about men who love their children, 598 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: who provide for their family, right. I think you get 599 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: the idea hate these people so many thoughts, Like first 600 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: of all, both of the tweets they pulled had egg abbeys, 601 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: which people get a life. One of them, I don't 602 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: remember the name, but it definitely started ana something and 603 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: it felt like somebody pulling a joke, which is nuts. 604 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: And the other thing, it's like I want to be like, gosh, 605 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: I wish Bill Hooks were alive and willing to go 606 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: on these shows. Should you give me like that's actually true. 607 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: When you crush men, you do her women, but not 608 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: for the reasons you're thinking. It's not about providing financially 609 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: for people that we're emotionally hurting men and we could 610 00:33:55,600 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: be doing better as a community, as a society. Ridiculous 611 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: and Joel very good eye because the the Twitter, the 612 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: tweet that they showed belonged to Twitter USERNA can't stop 613 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: who if you go to that Twitter profile now, oh wait, 614 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: you can't because it's been suspended because it was a 615 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: fake account. They showed someone who is a known troll 616 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: impersonating a black woman to create chaos and confusion on 617 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: social media platforms. They showed that tweet not knowing or 618 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: maybe I'm not even gonna say not knowing, not caring 619 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: to check to see whether or not that was an 620 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: actual person espousing their actual views to showing show and 621 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 1: pop up. I wonder if there's because some of these 622 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 1: people actually went to journalism school, and you wonder if 623 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: there's any like moment where there's just like deep regret 624 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: or concern or like they have to know that the 625 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: rest of the journalism community is just like beside themselves, 626 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: like what are you doing? Your one job is to 627 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: research and report facts, you fools? I mean, who has 628 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 1: who has time for deep regret when there's money to 629 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:12,399 Speaker 1: be made? And you know what's interesting and I feel 630 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: like I should should really know is that I'm talking 631 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: about how this campaign was like sort of successful, but 632 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: I mean successful. You know, every person that I talked 633 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 1: to in my research, who was every black woman who 634 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: was involved in all of this, They really make it 635 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: clear that it was really people who were predisposed to 636 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 1: be suspicious of black women and feminists in general who 637 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: fell for this. So it wasn't not. Like when I 638 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: say it was effective, I mean effective specifically among people 639 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: who don't like black women are feminists and also have 640 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: platforms like thoughts News, And I I don't think that black 641 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: women because we're you know, we're a skeptical bunch. We're 642 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: like a like a we're you know, where we do 643 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: our due diligence as black women, we weren't the ones 644 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 1: who were being fooled. And I actually don't think this 645 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: campaign was necessarily meant to target us. I think this 646 00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 1: campaign was meant to trick people like the folks at 647 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 1: bots News into amplifying it. So in that way it 648 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:05,399 Speaker 1: was successful. I don't mean to say that like black 649 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,399 Speaker 1: black women didn't fall for this, No, and we went 650 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: like the black community has some of those active fathers 651 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 1: as far as like directly direct involvement with children on 652 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: a day to day basis in America anyway, Like the 653 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 1: statistics are very clear, So it's always funky and pretty 654 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: noticeable when someone's like black dads are not around and 655 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,880 Speaker 1: be like boo, sir, no, this is not the eighties. 656 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: And we're very aware of what's happening in our own 657 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: communities because we're part of them fools exactly and what 658 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: you just said, like like if if a black person, 659 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 1: if somebody who says they are a black person says 660 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: certain things on social media and then this makes you 661 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,399 Speaker 1: kind of scratched your head and say are you really black? 662 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: Because I don't know that a black person would really 663 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: say that. That is exactly what kind of undid this 664 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: troll and Father's Day campaign. You know, if you've ever 665 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: seen somebody on social media pretending to be a black woman, 666 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,239 Speaker 1: some ms will say things that are just off, well, 667 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: let's same things that just like don't make sense. Um. 668 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: In an interview that I did with Twitter user Safika Hudson, 669 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: she says that the big giveaway is how often these 670 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 1: people pretending to be black women bungled the linguistic construction 671 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,240 Speaker 1: that we call the habitual be I see you nodding. 672 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 1: Are you familiar with the habitual will be? Yes? Yeah. 673 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: My My favorite little truism about the habitual will be 674 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 1: is that some linguists were doing studies on children and 675 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: they showed a bunch of white children a picture of 676 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: Cookie Monster and a picture of Oscar the Grouch, and 677 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,760 Speaker 1: they and Oscar was eating cookies and cookie Monster wasn't 678 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,359 Speaker 1: and so they asked who is eating cookies? And they 679 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: were like cookie monster. Even though that wasn't correct. They 680 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: showed black children the same question, and they asked who 681 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: is eating cookies and they were like Oscar the Grouch 682 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: And they were like, but who be eating cookies? And 683 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: they were like, oh, cookie monster. Of course, like they know. 684 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: And so all of these little nuances of black lived 685 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 1: experience and black identity. You really can't think that if 686 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,919 Speaker 1: you have no proximity with blackness, and you really don't 687 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: know what you're talking about. And so all of these 688 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,800 Speaker 1: black women were ended up reporting to Twitter that people 689 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: were pretending to be black feminists and using the platform 690 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,880 Speaker 1: to try to so discord and confusion. But Twitter pretty 691 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,360 Speaker 1: much didn't do anything. They were like okay and like 692 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 1: took no action. And so Shafika Hudson created a hashtag 693 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,839 Speaker 1: called hashtag your slip is Showing to help weed out 694 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 1: these trolls pretending to be black women. Um, Joel, where 695 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 1: are you from? Geographically? Are you from the South? I'm 696 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: from Chicago. Okay, does the phrase your slip is Showing? 697 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: Does this mean anything to you? Yes, my folks did 698 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: come up from the Mississippi mind half feeling yes and 699 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 1: heard it as a child in church because I did 700 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,799 Speaker 1: wear a slip under my dress in church because I 701 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: went to a Southern Baptist exactly. So if a black 702 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 1: Southern lady tells you, oh, your slip is showing, basically 703 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 1: what she's telling you is that you don't look as 704 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: put together as you think that you do. And that 705 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: is why Shefika Hudson used that phrase to weed out 706 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: these people posing as black women, right, like, you think 707 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 1: that you're coming off as a black woman, but actually 708 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: your hashtag, your slip is showing. She created a list 709 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: of Twitter users pretending to be black women, and some 710 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 1: of them were really really obvious, Like one of them 711 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 1: they they're avy image was of like well known black 712 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,879 Speaker 1: podcaster Heaven negat To so like someone that people know, 713 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,359 Speaker 1: just like really stupid. And I think, to me, the 714 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 1: fact that a regular Twitter user like Safika had to 715 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,400 Speaker 1: take it upon herself to do this work like creating 716 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 1: a hashtag, creating a whole list that she added to 717 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,320 Speaker 1: doing that labor of making Twitter a safer platform, despite 718 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 1: the fact that like she didn't work at Twitter, she 719 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 1: was doing it completely unpaid at a time when she 720 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 1: was actually between jobs. It says a lot to me 721 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: about the way that platforms like Twitter operate. You know, 722 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 1: shouldn't tech leaders at places like Twitter want their platforms 723 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 1: to be more secure. Shouldn't they be interested in not 724 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 1: having their platforms be places where bad actors can completely 725 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: hijack conversations? You know, it should not be up to 726 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 1: just regular black women like Shafika Hudson to do the 727 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 1: work of making Twitter safer. Yet time and time again 728 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,959 Speaker 1: that labor, which is often unpaid and often dangerous work 729 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,920 Speaker 1: falls on the shoulders of just regular black women because 730 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 1: the powers that be do nothing when we are harmed. Yeah, 731 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:50,280 Speaker 1: it's absolutely shouldn't be anybody outside of getting a Twitter 732 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: paycheck responsibility to keep its users safe. That's foolish. But 733 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: capitalism being what it is is and these social media 734 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,360 Speaker 1: spaces making money the way they do. I mean, even YouTube, 735 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 1: which has a pretty good system of like, here's how 736 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 1: we make money, here's how we pay out the users 737 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: who create content for us, still understands at the end 738 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 1: of the day, it's down to videos watched and ads consumed. 739 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 1: And because of that, I have no interest in people's 740 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: safety Because this sort of unrelegated wild West of post 741 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: what you want. Let's create a lot of hate, which 742 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 1: is going to hopefully create more comments. I mean, it's 743 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 1: it's weird because we're sort of seeing Netflix happ into 744 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 1: this too, where they create these shows that are like 745 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: mildly devised. If you think, like an Emily in Paris, right, 746 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,399 Speaker 1: Emily in Paris has a pretty sackcast, but it didn't 747 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 1: cause that much to make. It's easy and fast to make, 748 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:50,400 Speaker 1: so I can turn that out. And if you hate it, 749 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,440 Speaker 1: all the better because when you hate watch it. At 750 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,400 Speaker 1: least you're tweeting about it. At least you're giving that 751 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 1: show promotion. At least you're watching it. At least you're 752 00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,240 Speaker 1: spending more time on Netflix. And I think we're seeing 753 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,000 Speaker 1: this throughout our internet landscape. You know, we're still in 754 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,360 Speaker 1: the infancy of the internet, uh just by you know, 755 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 1: a lot of us grew up with me. I had 756 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,960 Speaker 1: the Internet since I was like four or five. I 757 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 1: don't really recall a time without their being Internet access 758 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 1: available to me. And because of that, I think, to 759 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 1: a our degree, because our government has not stepped in 760 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: and decided to make any rules or structures or has 761 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,120 Speaker 1: made very limited rules and structures for how the Internet 762 00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 1: is to be used. I think we're just going to 763 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 1: keep conceiving these things until something like that, until there's 764 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,760 Speaker 1: actual laws passed, because it's financially uh, people are financially 765 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:37,279 Speaker 1: behooved to continue to allow this kind of negative reactions 766 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,240 Speaker 1: and interactions. I could not have put that better myself, 767 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,040 Speaker 1: and I think that at this point what we we 768 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,200 Speaker 1: really the first step is we need to acknowledge the 769 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 1: way that this kind of hate as an engagement strategy 770 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:55,440 Speaker 1: on social media platforms, one typically targets people who are 771 00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:59,800 Speaker 1: traditionally marginalized and to just keeps us all locked into 772 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 1: this same toxic engagement system of hate. The studies are 773 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 1: super clear that people who use social media are not happier. 774 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,400 Speaker 1: It makes us all unhappy, and that social media algorithms 775 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:17,440 Speaker 1: by design amplify content that makes us angrier, more polarized, 776 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,839 Speaker 1: more divided, and less less informed. And so it's not 777 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,040 Speaker 1: doing any of us any good. But I'll tell you 778 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 1: what it is doing. It is lining a lot of 779 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,600 Speaker 1: people's pockets. And I don't want to create I don't 780 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,440 Speaker 1: want us to have an Internet ecosystem and landscape where 781 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,799 Speaker 1: it's a marketplace for our pain, right, Like, I don't 782 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,480 Speaker 1: want our negative experiences to just be lining the pockets 783 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,200 Speaker 1: of some asshole tech leader somewhere. We deserve so much better. 784 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 1: And the people, the young people who come behind us, 785 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,239 Speaker 1: the next generation, they don't deserve to have, you know, 786 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 1: their negative experiences be weaponized and marketed and profited from 787 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:55,880 Speaker 1: in this callous way. Like, we really need to think 788 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 1: about what kind of Internet landscape we want to have. 789 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 1: Do we want to have one that makes us more 790 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,520 Speaker 1: informed and more thoughtful or one that allows people like 791 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,560 Speaker 1: Elon Musk to add another fucking comma to their paycheck. 792 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 1: You know, I would argue, it's it's not that. Yeah, 793 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:18,400 Speaker 1: it's hard too, because as much as I know I 794 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,520 Speaker 1: should be avoiding the negative, you know, like on the 795 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,880 Speaker 1: day that we're recording this, Drake dropped his new album 796 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 1: late last night, I think earlier this morning, and so 797 00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 1: it has been a wave of black women being like 798 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,840 Speaker 1: not you, going after Serena and Megan in the same 799 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,440 Speaker 1: album You Fool, And it's hard not to instantly be like, 800 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,920 Speaker 1: what's happening? Like gz Jake out here, Slandering black women 801 00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,920 Speaker 1: is number one? Like holding down fan base? What is 802 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: going on. You're like, you're probably just telling my voice, 803 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,799 Speaker 1: like there's an actively engaging aspect about that, but I do. 804 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: But you're right when we continue to modify our own English. Really, 805 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,920 Speaker 1: I mean even you can go pandemic days when we 806 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,440 Speaker 1: were starting to see the beginnings of an uprising, uh 807 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,239 Speaker 1: and at the very least activation of a lot of 808 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,160 Speaker 1: black people in America. I mean, there's a time that's 809 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,120 Speaker 1: pretty much all we or It felt like all we 810 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,080 Speaker 1: were talking about was like black liberation in America and 811 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:20,320 Speaker 1: the struggles to find it. It was dark and a challenge. 812 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,640 Speaker 1: And I don't know the Internet as a tool, as 813 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:25,800 Speaker 1: a mother would say, and you can use a tool 814 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:27,880 Speaker 1: to help build something great and you can use a 815 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:32,360 Speaker 1: tool to destroy. And I think we are struggling to 816 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:36,880 Speaker 1: find a good balance between those two positions, just like snap. 817 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:38,920 Speaker 1: So give it up for Joel's mom first of all, 818 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,680 Speaker 1: because I had someone them. But I think you know, 819 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,680 Speaker 1: I was reading the Drake stuff before I hopped out, 820 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:49,400 Speaker 1: and I think it really shows that attacking black women 821 00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,719 Speaker 1: will always have an audience. If you trash black women 822 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,280 Speaker 1: on the Internet, that will always be a winning engagement strategy. 823 00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,400 Speaker 1: And I think it's hell to engage because we have 824 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 1: to protect our cells. As you've just perfectly laid out, 825 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,080 Speaker 1: we feel compelled to because if we don't know one 826 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:09,239 Speaker 1: else is going to do it. Yeah, exactly, And yeah, 827 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,040 Speaker 1: I think that we need to be honest about the 828 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:15,239 Speaker 1: ways that massage, noire and and hate against the black 829 00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:19,279 Speaker 1: women has propped up our Internet landscape and really been 830 00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 1: a feature, not a bug, that is at the heart 831 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:26,040 Speaker 1: of engagement strategies for so many Internet platforms, and we're 832 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,239 Speaker 1: not even being honest about it. Like you see it, 833 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,280 Speaker 1: I see it. I feel it when I'm on the Internet. 834 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:36,919 Speaker 1: I cannot help myself but to engage when a black 835 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,400 Speaker 1: woman is being smeared in this way. And I know 836 00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:43,160 Speaker 1: that I am just a cog in this hate cycle, 837 00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 1: this Internet hate machine that tells me that I have 838 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:50,400 Speaker 1: to vocally support this black woman. But that's just another 839 00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:54,080 Speaker 1: engagement point that it's helping to amplify an ugly toxic 840 00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,520 Speaker 1: conversation that I know to humanize as us. It's like, 841 00:46:57,560 --> 00:46:59,840 Speaker 1: we are so locked into this fucked up cycle. I 842 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:04,160 Speaker 1: ate it, and why I think we're all about to 843 00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 1: figure out how we get off of it, just by 844 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,040 Speaker 1: virtue of a new owner, which is sort of crazy 845 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,040 Speaker 1: to think about, Like we maybe all should have made 846 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,160 Speaker 1: this move much earlier, but it was hard. It's hard 847 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,319 Speaker 1: to leave Twitter. There's a lot of comfort and a 848 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:20,160 Speaker 1: lot of support there as almost as much as there is. Hey, 849 00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:22,879 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be really interested to see where black women 850 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,840 Speaker 1: as a community, specifically this this corner of black women 851 00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,439 Speaker 1: wind up. Yeah, I'd be tumbler. And it's it's sad 852 00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,560 Speaker 1: because like black women and black people more broadly, like, 853 00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:36,520 Speaker 1: we make these platforms. Nobody was sucking showing up on 854 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:40,200 Speaker 1: Twitter before Black Twitter, Like, we made these platforms cool 855 00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:44,279 Speaker 1: places to be and it amazing exactly, and here we 856 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,279 Speaker 1: are feeling like we need but we're being pushed off 857 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,200 Speaker 1: of these platforms. So so so let's talk about Elon Musk 858 00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:52,279 Speaker 1: and his ownership of Twitter, because I feel like it 859 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,360 Speaker 1: just feels so this conversation we're having feel so timely. 860 00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,600 Speaker 1: You know, we're talking about this against the backdrop of 861 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,920 Speaker 1: Elon Musk taking over Twitter and talking about making users 862 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:05,239 Speaker 1: pay for verification. As we've talked about. I feel like 863 00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,640 Speaker 1: so much in this episode. Having a blue check mark 864 00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,040 Speaker 1: is not just a vanity thing. You know, it started 865 00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,880 Speaker 1: as a way to help users identify people that that 866 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,920 Speaker 1: they actually were who they say they are. And this 867 00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:18,239 Speaker 1: is an extra level of security for people who were 868 00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,240 Speaker 1: at risk of being impers stated online. And we already 869 00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,239 Speaker 1: know from all the stuff I've talked about in this 870 00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:27,319 Speaker 1: episode that marginalized people are particularly at risk for being 871 00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:29,839 Speaker 1: impers stated online. We already know that this is a 872 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,799 Speaker 1: thing that is used to create chaos on the part 873 00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,440 Speaker 1: of bad actors. And so you know, I got verified 874 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,680 Speaker 1: on Twitter not because I'm like so great or this 875 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,040 Speaker 1: and that. It was because in twenty sixteen, somebody was 876 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:43,640 Speaker 1: using my picture, like a terrible picture of me from 877 00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,840 Speaker 1: LinkedIn to create a Twitter account essentially to like shoot 878 00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,360 Speaker 1: on Hillary Clinton. Not that I was something like huge 879 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,240 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton like person, but like clearly they just wanted 880 00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:55,920 Speaker 1: an image of a black woman who would say things 881 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,000 Speaker 1: about Hillary Clinton. Right, And so we already know this 882 00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:02,120 Speaker 1: is a huge issue on Twitter, and it kind of 883 00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,400 Speaker 1: seems like a bad idea to overhaul this one tool 884 00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,560 Speaker 1: that we have to combat it via verification. And it 885 00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,520 Speaker 1: also seems like a really bad idea to do this 886 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:15,560 Speaker 1: when you've like gutted your staff days away from an election, 887 00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:18,440 Speaker 1: the staff whose job it is to make the platform 888 00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:21,800 Speaker 1: a little bit safer. Um. You mentioned the Twitter thread 889 00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,520 Speaker 1: by the actor Robert Kazynski earlier, and I really really 890 00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:30,120 Speaker 1: appreciated um what he had to say. He writes years ago, 891 00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,640 Speaker 1: before verified accounts were a thing. Back when I was 892 00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:36,200 Speaker 1: on East Enders, I was contacted multiple times by parents 893 00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:40,120 Speaker 1: of children who had been conversing with me online. Eleven 894 00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,239 Speaker 1: and fifteen year old children who had been talking with 895 00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,399 Speaker 1: the fake me. I was informed that one of these 896 00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,040 Speaker 1: children went missing. I didn't have social media at the time. 897 00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:49,800 Speaker 1: I didn't understand it. It's a horror show. For years, 898 00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,440 Speaker 1: people pushed for some way to root out the fakes. 899 00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:54,720 Speaker 1: There was a phase, if you remember, of people posting 900 00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,359 Speaker 1: images of themselves with their U r L. I did 901 00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,600 Speaker 1: that on every side. I could find Facebook, my Space, 902 00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:02,799 Speaker 1: b boot anything. I felt powerless to stop people using 903 00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:05,480 Speaker 1: my face and name a scam or groom people. That's 904 00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:07,960 Speaker 1: why verification came to be, because it was important to 905 00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,839 Speaker 1: protect people. It wasn't for cloud or for leveraging money 906 00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:15,200 Speaker 1: from a platform. It was to protect people from utter scumbags. 907 00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:17,840 Speaker 1: I think that perhaps in the age of social media, 908 00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,800 Speaker 1: there are some CEOs who may have forgotten the importance 909 00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:24,440 Speaker 1: of protecting people or having trustworthy sources. I don't tweet much. 910 00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:26,480 Speaker 1: I'm scared of the Internet. I struggle with a lot 911 00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:28,520 Speaker 1: of things in life. But this account exists so that 912 00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:32,160 Speaker 1: fake accounts can't. If Elon Musks removes that simple ability 913 00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:35,120 Speaker 1: to protect people, to protect children with verification, then this 914 00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:37,480 Speaker 1: company is dead in the water. I don't know if 915 00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:39,439 Speaker 1: it's been expressed to him. I doubt he will see 916 00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:41,800 Speaker 1: this thread, but I hope someone is explaining to Elon 917 00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,759 Speaker 1: Musk the actual dangers to children and the vulnerable and 918 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,200 Speaker 1: why removing that protection is an action that will lead 919 00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:51,160 Speaker 1: directly to children being endangered. Verification is a public service. 920 00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,920 Speaker 1: It is a good deed performed by companies who contribute 921 00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:56,400 Speaker 1: very little good to the world. In my opinion, we 922 00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,600 Speaker 1: should be making easier, clearer paths to verification for everyone, 923 00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:03,160 Speaker 1: not making it harder. It is their responsibility, not a 924 00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:08,040 Speaker 1: business model, and I really identified with that because it 925 00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,360 Speaker 1: shouldn't be a business model. It should be a base 926 00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:14,799 Speaker 1: responsibility for you know, one of our largest communication platforms 927 00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:18,359 Speaker 1: in the fucking world. And what's worse, you know, as 928 00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,359 Speaker 1: we're about to have an election, one that you know 929 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,399 Speaker 1: officials have already warned, is an election where we could 930 00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:29,160 Speaker 1: see political violence, violence at the polls, blowing up verification 931 00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,319 Speaker 1: and having users be able to pay eight dollars to 932 00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:35,080 Speaker 1: be verified after gutting half of your staff. I think 933 00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:37,359 Speaker 1: it could create a disaster in terms of people being 934 00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:41,359 Speaker 1: able to depend on our communications platform to get information 935 00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:44,839 Speaker 1: about the election. Uh. And I would just also just add, like, 936 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,880 Speaker 1: I think that bad actors are going to continue using 937 00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:53,560 Speaker 1: this as a tactic, you know, impersonating people, gamifying platforms 938 00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:57,080 Speaker 1: via importonation. And I also think that, like we know 939 00:51:57,160 --> 00:52:02,040 Speaker 1: that folks can really steer and dominate and hijack national conversations. 940 00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:05,080 Speaker 1: You know, if you look back at amidst the mobilizations 941 00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:08,560 Speaker 1: for Racial justice and Twitter announced that a fake account 942 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,840 Speaker 1: at antifa underscore US that was yeah, that was called 943 00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:16,040 Speaker 1: for violence was actually run by the white supremacist group 944 00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:20,120 Speaker 1: Is it identity Europa? Is how you say it? I 945 00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:23,920 Speaker 1: think I think it's Europa who cares. It's one of 946 00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:26,480 Speaker 1: the most active white supremacist groups in the US. From 947 00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:31,160 Speaker 1: nineteen and so this was during the height of like protests. 948 00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:35,840 Speaker 1: Intention This account tweeted Alert Tonight's Tonight Comrades, Tonight, we 949 00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:39,160 Speaker 1: say funk the city, we move into residential areas, the 950 00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,600 Speaker 1: white hoods, and we take what's ours hashtag black Lives 951 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:47,480 Speaker 1: Matter hashtagu America and Twitter has confirmed that this was 952 00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:50,200 Speaker 1: not the only account that they booted off of the 953 00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:55,200 Speaker 1: platform for impersonating racial justice like demonstrators. Uh. Donald Trump 954 00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:59,320 Speaker 1: Junior tweeted absolutely insane with a screenshot at that tweet. 955 00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,560 Speaker 1: Just remember what Antifa really is a terrorist organization. They're 956 00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:07,400 Speaker 1: not even pretending anymore. And this was the same I 957 00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,200 Speaker 1: think that's like the same day that Trump basically blamed 958 00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:15,440 Speaker 1: Antifa scare quotes for violence that you know, for like 959 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,919 Speaker 1: violence during protests, and you know, I just think back 960 00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:21,319 Speaker 1: to that, and I think, how long did we have 961 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:25,400 Speaker 1: to endure this ridiculous news cycle about like law and 962 00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:31,399 Speaker 1: or violence and like, it is very concerning that extremists 963 00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:34,759 Speaker 1: are successfully able to dominate the national dialogue of like 964 00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:39,120 Speaker 1: what our convert what the conversation is, Uh, just by 965 00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,680 Speaker 1: using these tactics on Twitter that Twitter is aware of. 966 00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,600 Speaker 1: I would say that are if bad actors can hijack 967 00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:48,480 Speaker 1: our communication platforms in that way, these platforms are not 968 00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:51,000 Speaker 1: secure and they're not safe, and they're not really serving us. 969 00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:56,040 Speaker 1: It was super crazy. So like, historically this is the call, right, 970 00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,719 Speaker 1: Like they clearly know their audience, which is like, how 971 00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:04,600 Speaker 1: do scare white people? You know, no person of color 972 00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,200 Speaker 1: is using the term white hood. First of all, unless 973 00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,960 Speaker 1: we're referring to KKK members like, oh, this is the 974 00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:13,000 Speaker 1: white hood. I was like, are you out of your mind? 975 00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:16,360 Speaker 1: The second of all, we understand clearly as as black 976 00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:20,399 Speaker 1: people in America that white people have this natural fear 977 00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:24,520 Speaker 1: that white that black people are going to retaliate and 978 00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:26,960 Speaker 1: create like white slavery. It's a it's a narrative. We've 979 00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:30,680 Speaker 1: heard a lot. It's how a lot of lynchings take place. 980 00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:33,040 Speaker 1: I mean, we can look as far back as him 981 00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:35,520 Speaker 1: until and the fact that he whistled at a white woman, 982 00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:37,759 Speaker 1: and that was considered a threat because the twelve year 983 00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,480 Speaker 1: old boy whistled, whistled a thing we know didn't happen 984 00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,280 Speaker 1: at a white woman. And so for them to tap 985 00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:45,799 Speaker 1: all the way back into that fear even today on 986 00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:48,000 Speaker 1: social media, to say, hey, they're going to come into 987 00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:52,879 Speaker 1: your neighborhoods and like shake things up, it's it's frustrating 988 00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:58,000 Speaker 1: and kind of horrifying to still think about just your 989 00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:02,640 Speaker 1: your blackness, just your presence being a threat. And again, 990 00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,600 Speaker 1: you know, as we've been articulating throughout the episode, every 991 00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:09,239 Speaker 1: time that's stated, it's it causes us to have to 992 00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:12,960 Speaker 1: be extra defensive, extra alert for ourselves and for our 993 00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,160 Speaker 1: direct community, because we don't know who's going to take again, 994 00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:19,000 Speaker 1: just our presence as a threat and then act on 995 00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:22,160 Speaker 1: that threat. Exactly. I think it was Tony Morrison who 996 00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,759 Speaker 1: said that the business of racism is like creating a 997 00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,279 Speaker 1: situation where you can't get anything done because you're so 998 00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,400 Speaker 1: busy defending yourself and defending your blackness and defend like 999 00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:34,560 Speaker 1: showing up defensive, but you then can't do the good 1000 00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:36,319 Speaker 1: work that you want to do. You can't put your 1001 00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:39,000 Speaker 1: your energy towards something else. And I think that's exactly 1002 00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:43,280 Speaker 1: what is happening here, that these bad actors and trolls 1003 00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,640 Speaker 1: and extremists are able to create the conditions where folks 1004 00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:49,040 Speaker 1: like you and me, just like regular black folks, are 1005 00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,319 Speaker 1: put in a situation where we have to constantly be 1006 00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:55,839 Speaker 1: defending ourselves against the backdrop of a complete fabrication. Right 1007 00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:59,080 Speaker 1: like a black activists didn't tweet that a white suprematist did, 1008 00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:01,680 Speaker 1: and so I'm having to offend myself against something I 1009 00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:04,920 Speaker 1: guess a caricature that a white supremacist dreamed up on 1010 00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,879 Speaker 1: my behalf that I had nothing to do with. Yeah, 1011 00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:09,719 Speaker 1: and then we see the real life percussions, not only 1012 00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:13,640 Speaker 1: so not only the emotional and mental toil online, but 1013 00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,760 Speaker 1: then you know, when we're out in the streets protesting 1014 00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:20,120 Speaker 1: for our goddamn lives, then all of a sudden again 1015 00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:22,400 Speaker 1: just our presidence of being in the street, even if 1016 00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:24,680 Speaker 1: the peaceful protests, it's abots to be the difference in 1017 00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:28,120 Speaker 1: police presence. Where I went to the women's march where 1018 00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:31,000 Speaker 1: too many people hit on that stupid pussy hat. Uh, 1019 00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:35,080 Speaker 1: the police presidence, they're soups calm, just lots of daughters 1020 00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:39,480 Speaker 1: hanging out, totally fine. Whatever. Two. If you know, if 1021 00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:42,320 Speaker 1: you were at any of the early Black Lives matters rallies, 1022 00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:45,200 Speaker 1: if you marched for George Floyd or anything like that, 1023 00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:49,120 Speaker 1: you saw us start difference and how you were just 1024 00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:52,160 Speaker 1: being treated for doing the exact same action. And I 1025 00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:54,120 Speaker 1: think a lot of it is like this year mongering 1026 00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,400 Speaker 1: that we saw on social media spilling into real life. 1027 00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,879 Speaker 1: And that is kind of my point. These are sent 1028 00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:04,040 Speaker 1: aative conversations that involve very real hot button issues that 1029 00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:07,520 Speaker 1: are super raw for many of us, and the fact 1030 00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:11,000 Speaker 1: that our social media platforms are so easily exploited and 1031 00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:15,359 Speaker 1: hijacked by extremists and bad actors to completely derail these 1032 00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:19,440 Speaker 1: conversations is a problem with very big implications. In the 1033 00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:22,800 Speaker 1: case of End Father's Day, many of the people reporting 1034 00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,440 Speaker 1: on it, you know, journalists, they talked about it like 1035 00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,920 Speaker 1: the four controls behind the hoax were just joking, you know, 1036 00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:32,720 Speaker 1: just trolling. But black feminists they knew it wasn't a 1037 00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:35,160 Speaker 1: joke because they could see what was at stake, and 1038 00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:37,680 Speaker 1: they could probably see down the line what was going 1039 00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:40,760 Speaker 1: to happen next. When it comes to online harms, it's 1040 00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:44,600 Speaker 1: always marginalized people who are harmed. First. First, it's error problem, 1041 00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:47,600 Speaker 1: and nothing is done because nobody takes black women seriously, 1042 00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:51,720 Speaker 1: and then it is everyone's problem. Back in it was 1043 00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:55,960 Speaker 1: just destabilizing black feminist online spaces through impersonating black folks 1044 00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:58,680 Speaker 1: on Twitter with hoaxes like end Father's Day, and then 1045 00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,439 Speaker 1: about a year or two later, it's gamer Gate. Then 1046 00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:05,920 Speaker 1: it was bad actors using that same tactic in an 1047 00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:10,560 Speaker 1: attempt to sway the presidential election. It's hijacking, and in 1048 00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:15,800 Speaker 1: flaming national conversations around protest, race crime, and policing. And 1049 00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:18,120 Speaker 1: by the time folks are listening to this episode, it 1050 00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:22,480 Speaker 1: will be election day. Elon Musk is blowing up verification 1051 00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:25,680 Speaker 1: on Twitter and gutting the teams that actually exist on 1052 00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:29,000 Speaker 1: the platform to try to make some kind of headway 1053 00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:34,160 Speaker 1: into making those platforms safer. So what's next? Where does 1054 00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:36,880 Speaker 1: it end? Jabel? Thank you so much for being here. 1055 00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:39,680 Speaker 1: Where can folks follow all the amazing stuff that you've 1056 00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:42,320 Speaker 1: got going on? Pretty? Thank you so much for having me. 1057 00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:44,960 Speaker 1: This is really lovely and I'm so excited about this show. 1058 00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:49,320 Speaker 1: Thank you. Folks can follow me all over the internet. Actual, Moniqu, 1059 00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:50,480 Speaker 1: I don't know if I be on Twitter anymore, so 1060 00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:53,560 Speaker 1: we're expanding on the internet as well. Anique, It's j 1061 00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,480 Speaker 1: O E L L E M O N I q 1062 00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:58,600 Speaker 1: u E. If you find me on Instagram. I got 1063 00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:01,040 Speaker 1: there too late, so there's an underscore between the two names. 1064 00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:03,600 Speaker 1: But please come come find me on all I'm on 1065 00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:07,040 Speaker 1: on on the discords, the Masodons, try Sarah tops all 1066 00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:09,400 Speaker 1: of them now, just looking for a new home. If 1067 00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:13,360 Speaker 1: you like a social media space that's mostly word based, 1068 00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:15,280 Speaker 1: hit me up and tell me about it. I'll try it. 1069 00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:18,880 Speaker 1: I am, I need the outlet. I love it. Thank 1070 00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:22,439 Speaker 1: you for being here. I think that's it. So yeah, 1071 00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:26,000 Speaker 1: I'll do this week on Internet Hate Machine. Joe will 1072 00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:30,200 Speaker 1: be appreciate you. I appreciate you, guys, so be so 1073 00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:33,120 Speaker 1: good to see your face and hopefully I'll talk to 1074 00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:35,600 Speaker 1: you you definitely about next anything you need the answer? Yes, 1075 00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:38,120 Speaker 1: all right, thank you girl. You have a good one. 1076 00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:44,320 Speaker 1: Bye guys. Internet Hate Machine is a production of Cool 1077 00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:47,160 Speaker 1: Zone Media. But more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Check 1078 00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:49,800 Speaker 1: out our website cools on media dot com, or find 1079 00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:52,280 Speaker 1: us on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 1080 00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:53,840 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.