1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,279 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it's Sophia and welcome back to work in progress. 2 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: I am delighted to have with us today prolific novelist 3 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: and show creator Taylor Jenkins read. Taylor's historical fiction novel, 4 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: Daisy Jones and the Six is a national and New 5 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: York Times bestseller, the winner of the two thousand nineteen 6 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: Good Read's Choice Awards for Historical Fiction, and was named 7 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: one of the best books of the year by The 8 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: Washington Post. It is being turned into a mini series 9 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: by Amazon Studios, produced by Reese Witherspoon. I devoured this book. 10 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 1: Daisy Jones and the Six is written in such incredible 11 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: detail that I kept going on Google to see if 12 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: any of the characters in the story were actually based 13 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: on real people. And I know now based on all 14 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: the articles written about the book that I am not 15 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: alone many of us were so so curious who Daisy 16 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: was bay based on. Taylor has also penned incredibly well 17 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: known novels, including The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, One 18 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 1: True Loves, Maybe In Another Life After I Do, and 19 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:15,759 Speaker 1: Forever Interrupted. And she has a new novel coming out today, 20 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: Malibu Rising. Her themes explore fame and motherhood, female strength 21 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: and ambition, love, the struggles of overcoming loss and identity. 22 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: Taylor and her husband, screenwriter and producer Alex Reid, have 23 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: also worked together, co writing and creating Hulu comedy series 24 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: Resident Advisors. On today's episode, Taylor and I got to 25 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: discuss her process, how she writes these books, where she 26 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: comes up with her twists and turns, and whether they 27 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: inspire the entire story or reveal themselves to her in 28 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: the process. We also talk about what it means to 29 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: be ambitious women. Ambition is not a dirty word, and 30 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: here we are so many of us, and I imagine 31 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: many of you at home unpacking how we can be 32 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: our biggest and brightest selves and also feel like we 33 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: are achieving our goals, both in our careers and in 34 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: our families. Taylor's vulnerability on this topic and what she's 35 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: willing to share about how she and Alex have balance 36 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: in their relationship is so incredibly poignant and I think 37 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: relevant to so many of us. I'm so grateful to 38 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: have had Taylor come and sit down with us today. 39 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: She is an incredibly busy woman spinning all of the plates, 40 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: and I know you all will be inspired and really 41 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 1: enjoy what she has to say. Thanks for joining me today. 42 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: It's really nice to see you. Oh my gosh, thank 43 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: you for having me. This is I feel like we 44 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: were supposed to have this year of like backyard wine 45 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: and playing with your kid and my dog, and like 46 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: we had a plan and then the world shut down, 47 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: and I feel like we still deserve it. I know 48 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: there are a lot of things that um that I mean, 49 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: I have like a list of things that I'm like 50 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: very eager to do once it's safe to do them. 51 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: And I feel like and is just like a an 52 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: abstract idea in my mind. Now I can't quite piece 53 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: it together what we're going through, what has happened. Wait, 54 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,519 Speaker 1: that's actually so interesting that notion, because I was saying 55 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: to you, I feel like time sort of folded in 56 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: on itself. Like if you've ever watched one of those 57 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: machines that make saltwater taffy and they go like this, 58 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 1: You know that that is the image I get when 59 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: I think about time this year, And and you saying 60 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: that it feels like an abstract idea strikes me as 61 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: so interesting because your work is taking abstractions and ideas 62 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: and making them into incredibly detailed worlds. So are you 63 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: Are you writing about this year to process it or 64 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: is it still too close to home. No, I don't 65 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: write about things that I'm going through. I think I 66 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: mostly just unload those things on my husband every night, 67 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: where I'm like, you know, I just complained and shake 68 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,839 Speaker 1: my uh fists to the world. But I think for me, 69 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: writing is very much an escape, and I want my 70 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 1: books to feel like an escape. And and it's interesting 71 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 1: because there are a lot of artists that are really 72 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: leaning into this period of time and uh finding ways 73 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: of connection through the fact that we're we've been all 74 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: very separate, and I think that's really stunning. I am like, no, 75 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: no, no no, no, this is terrible. I'm gonna go back 76 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: in my mind to some year that this wasn't happening, 77 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 1: and I'm going to live there for a little while. 78 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: And the work that I'm consuming is a lot of 79 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 1: that too, Like I'm reading books that are taking me 80 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: far away from here. And it's been my escape in 81 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: such meaningful way this past year to just be in 82 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: somebody else's story, whether it's a story that I'm writing 83 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 1: about somebody else and somewhere else, or a story that 84 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: somebody else has created that I can just lose myself in. 85 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: Mm hmm, that's cool. I've been finding and and this 86 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: is such a horrible and I'm almost ashamed to admit 87 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: this to you, but I one of the things I've 88 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: been finding that I've really been struggling with this year 89 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: is I've started a lot of books and had a 90 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: hard time finishing them. Yeah, Like there's something about and 91 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: I don't know if it was you know, attempting to 92 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 1: save America from the brink of authoritarianism, which each of 93 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: us tried to, you know, do our best, or or 94 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 1: if it's the fact that there's this pandemic and so 95 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: many people are suffering and now you see these things happening, 96 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: you know, all over the world, just devastation, you know, 97 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: from here in America to columb be a Palestine, to 98 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: Israel too. You know, the list just goes and goes 99 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: and goes. Mean, mar I mean, what is happening? And 100 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: and I'm kind of like, I don't know if it's 101 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: okay to is it in my own house and read 102 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: a book like I have this, I have this anxiety 103 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: that I'm supposed to be doing something else or reading 104 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: something else, or learning something else, and you know, if 105 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: I don't give my brain a break, it will break. 106 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: And so it's this weird I've just been having this 107 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 1: really weird time. As such a lover of books, I 108 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: have never had a year where I've started but not 109 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: finished so many of them. And so now what I'm 110 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: doing is I'm carrying the stack of all the books 111 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: I've started around with me. I feel like a kid 112 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: who's in school with you know, just like the heaviest backpack. 113 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's some sort of weird 114 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: subconscious like penance, or if I'm just really trying to 115 00:06:55,839 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: motivate myself to finish them by staring at them all day. 116 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: I will say, like, look, I think trying to focus 117 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: right now is incredibly difficult, and I think trying to 118 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: focus on things that are supposed to be for the 119 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: purpose of joy is even more difficult, because the messages 120 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: that were being sent all the time are you know, 121 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: the world so terrible, the world so terrible, and you 122 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: have an obligation to fix it. And I think that's 123 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: great that for the for the first time that I 124 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: can remember, there's a growing sentiment within our society that 125 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: we all have an obligation to, you know, roll up 126 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: our sleeves and do something about the things that are 127 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: plaguing this country or this world. I think that's great, 128 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: but it's also you know, we're all really tired, we're 129 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: all fighting more is on multiple fronts, a lot of us, 130 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: and so the idea that you're going to take time 131 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: and you're gonna focus and you're gonna read and that's 132 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: going to be a joyful experience can be tough. And 133 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: I think I think there two elements of this that 134 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: are really important. And the one is that I feel 135 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: really really strongly, and I feel so strongly that I 136 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: include my own books in this. If you're reading a 137 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: book and you don't want to finish it, you should 138 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: put it down. Like there are so many books out there, 139 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: and there's so many books that I read at the 140 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: wrong time in my life because well, I think there 141 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: are lessons to be learned from so many stories, and 142 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: you have to be at a place to receive those 143 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 1: lessons if you're I mean, I say this with The 144 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: Great Gatsby a lot. You know, we read that book. 145 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 1: Most of us in the United States read that book 146 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: is teenagers, And I think there's a lot to take 147 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: from it as a teenager. There's so much more that 148 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: I took from it as an adult of reading that book, 149 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 1: and I took something different from it at twenty four 150 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:53,599 Speaker 1: than I took from reading it this past year. Um, 151 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 1: books have to find you. Stories have to find you 152 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: at the right time. And sometimes you may pick up 153 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 1: a book and it's just the wrong time. So if 154 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: it's not calling to you, put it down, and then 155 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: that will give you the opportunity to pick it up 156 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,839 Speaker 1: when when whatever lessons that can be mine from it 157 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: are more right for you. Um. There are a lot 158 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: of books that that I am now going back and 159 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: rereading because I realize at the time I forced my 160 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: way through them. But if you force your way through 161 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: a book, like your heart is not in it and 162 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: you're not engaged with it, and it becomes a chore 163 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: and reading, you know. I mean, Look, there's a lot 164 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: of things that we should read to better ourselves, but 165 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: I think reading should be a joyful thing, and it 166 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: makes sense for a lot of people. Everything is about 167 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 1: refilling your coffers and then and then using that energy 168 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: to go do something right. So for for me, absorbing 169 00:09:55,280 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: someone else's story most of the time fills me up. 170 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: It's sort of like like I kind of feel like 171 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: there's an introvert extrovert vibe to reading a little bit, 172 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: because I'm I'm an introvert, so I really like being 173 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: with other people. But that is that is a cost 174 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: for me. That's an energy suck. And then I come 175 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 1: home and I'm by myself and I only hear my 176 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: thoughts and that's when I feel refilled, and then I 177 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: can go out and talk again. And I feel like 178 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:28,239 Speaker 1: with reading sometimes it can be, you know, the opposite 179 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: to me. Reading fills me up. Oh I'm reading someone 180 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: else's story. I'm engaged by this. This feels effortless. This 181 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: is giving me energy, and then I can go spend 182 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: that energy on something else. For a lot of people, 183 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: reading costs them energy, so they're gonna do it when 184 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: they have extra energy. And no one has extra energy. 185 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: I mean that's just been Um. I certainly don't. And 186 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: so I hear I hear that a lot that like 187 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: reading is difficult, um, And I just say, like, put 188 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: those books down, stop carrying them. They'll find you at 189 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 1: some other point in your life when you're ready to 190 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: read them. You know, I really do think that, yeah, 191 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: and I have. I have certainly found that there have 192 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 1: been moments where a book hits me and I just 193 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: can't put it down, and I'll read it in a day. 194 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: And I'm also one of those people that, since I 195 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: mean it started in high school but got really obsessive 196 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: in college, every single book I have is you know, 197 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: dog eared and annotated with notes in the margins. I 198 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: can never give books to anyone because they're like, what 199 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: is what is this? Like? What is this beautiful mind 200 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: thing that you've handed to me? Um, you know, just 201 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: like Russell Crowe like pinning red and strings all over 202 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: the wall. That's it's ridiculous. So it's it is interesting, 203 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: I think too, to remember that you can be in 204 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: relationship to books. They'll find you, they'll you know, they'll 205 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: support you, and they'll wait for you. I really think 206 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: they will. And I think also like stories take so 207 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: many different forms. Now you know, It's like things get 208 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: adapted into various mediums, and you know, you'll have a 209 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: remake of something or now that here's a modern retelling 210 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: of Romeo and Juliet. You know, and you know, and 211 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: and you'll find your way into those stories at some 212 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: point if it does truly interest you, And I think, like, yeah, 213 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: having an understanding of the classics and what you know, 214 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: certainly as a writer, like what came before you. There 215 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: there are some things you just have to decide you're 216 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: gonna buckle down and read. But on a day to 217 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:30,719 Speaker 1: day basis, Like you know, I certainly write books with 218 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: the hope that it brings people joy, and not every 219 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: book is right for each person. And if it doesn't 220 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: bring you joy, you know, set yourself free and put 221 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: the book down. So I'm so curious about your story 222 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: because you know, we know you as this bestselling author 223 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:49,839 Speaker 1: who's speaking of adaptations, you know, whose work is being 224 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: adapted by you know, Racee Witherspoon and other sort of 225 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: Hollywood icons. Um, there's there's so much that you've done, 226 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: but I want to know where it began. Were you 227 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: always in relationship to books? You know, who who was 228 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: Taylor as a kid growing up in Massachusetts? Did you 229 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: know you were introverted? Then? You know, paint me a 230 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: picture of what was happening when you were I don't know, 231 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,719 Speaker 1: nine or ten. Yeah, Well, well no, I was not 232 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: in relationship with books. I'm not one of those authors 233 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: who has the very romantic story of you know, I 234 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: would I would be under the covers with a flashlight 235 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: reading a book after my parents told me to go 236 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: to bed. That was not me. Um. So I was 237 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: born in Maryland and lived there. My parents divorced when 238 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: I was very very young, and we lived in Maryland 239 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: until I was about twelve. We would go back and 240 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: forth from Maryland to Massachusetts basically, and like my mom 241 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: was mostly Massachusetts and my dad was Maryland. And and 242 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: when I turned twelve, we left Maryland just set down 243 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: finally in Massachusetts. And so that's where I feel I'm from. 244 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: That's where my formative memories really take place, and that's 245 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: where my lasting friendships are. I mean, I didn't get 246 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: into reading in any real earnest way. Like there were 247 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: a few books that meant something to me throughout my 248 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: teenage years. I got really into you know, brittlet like 249 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: Helen Fielding and Nick Hornby. And but I was watching TV. 250 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: That's that's what I was doing. That was my my 251 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: storytelling medium of choice. As I was watching I was 252 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: watching the wb Um, That's what I was doing. Um. 253 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: And so for me, it was movies and television that 254 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: we're calling to me. And I went to film school 255 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: and I distinctly remember like trying to figure out what 256 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: my major would be and going through all of the 257 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: classes and the things that would need to happen, and 258 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, it looks like a lot of 259 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: being a film major or a TV major is making 260 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: a film or making you know, a TV show. And 261 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: I'm I don't. I don't want to like direct it. Like, 262 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't want to be on set. I'm like, 263 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: I want to I want to be in the development part. 264 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: I want to be in pre production. I want to 265 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: like decide what the idea is and decide what the 266 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: story is and be a part of the casting process 267 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: and sort of create the idea and then let somebody 268 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: else go make it. So that is not what you 269 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: do in film school. So I ended up with what 270 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: was called a media studies major, which is the study 271 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: of film and television and sort of the place that 272 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: holds in society. It's more about theory. And I decided 273 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: I want to be a casting director. I was like, okay, 274 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: you know, casting director puts me in pre production. It's 275 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: a part of the process of you know, you take 276 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: this character on the page, you find the exact right 277 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: actor for it, and you make that role become three dimensional. 278 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: How does the person that you choose to play the 279 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: role change the role? How does that role then change 280 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: the star image of the person who's involved in I 281 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: was very, very interested in that, and I read a 282 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: bunch of books actually on different moments in Hollywood history 283 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: in which an actor found their sort of career making 284 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: role and how it was supposed to originally go to 285 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: somebody else. I read like this one book about that 286 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: that had like ten chapters in it of like ten movies, 287 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: and and I was like, well, this is this is it. 288 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: I want to I want to be a part of 289 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: the person that knows that you put you know, Jack 290 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: Nicholson in the shining, Like how do you know to 291 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: do that? Like that's you know. So I moved out 292 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: to Los Angeles. I think I got here like week 293 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 1: after my twenty one birthday, and I got a job 294 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 1: in casting and it was an absolute blast. It was 295 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: so much fun. But I worked in casting for about 296 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: three years, and during that period of time, I just 297 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: started to get the feeling that there was something else 298 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: long term that I wanted to do, and I had 299 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: started writing small things here and there, just like for fun, 300 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 1: just like to entertain my friends of like, oh, here's 301 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: a funny story, or stending sending a funny email or whatever. 302 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: And then I was like, well, what if I tried 303 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 1: to write? What if I what if I tried to write? 304 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: What if that's what I'm trying to do. Is like, 305 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 1: it's still part of that early process, But what if 306 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: I'm the person making up the characters. What if I'm 307 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: the person who's deciding what the story is? And I 308 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: fiddled around with like a screenplay, I like had written 309 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: a TV episode or two, and I was like, this 310 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: is now no not quite no um and then and 311 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: then I finally decided, Okay, I'm going to write a 312 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: short story. And that was it. That was when I 313 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: figured it out. And I was about twenty and that 314 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: short story ended up becoming a novel and I sent 315 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 1: it to a few friends and they sent it to 316 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: a few friends of theirs, and people were starting to 317 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: read it and they seemed to like it, and I 318 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 1: got a little bit more confident, you know, and then 319 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: it made its way into the hands of this agent 320 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: who was like, I'd like to represent you. Just try 321 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: to sell this, and I was like, okay, wow, like 322 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 1: this is happening, like you know it at all started 323 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: coming together. And then and then that book didn't sell, 324 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: but it was it was really encouraging. It was, you know, 325 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: we don't want this, but if she has something else, 326 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: we'd like to read it. And at that point I 327 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: felt really I knew. I was like, I'm ready to 328 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 1: double down on this. I have found it. This is 329 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: the thing I want to do. So I quit my job. 330 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: I wrote a book book in two months, and that 331 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: book ended up being my debut novel, Forever Rupted. And 332 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: since then this is just what I've been doing, which 333 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 1: has been incredible. Do you think, you know, when you 334 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 1: look back on childhood. I don't know why. There there's 335 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: something so nostalgic and almost romantic to me about this 336 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 1: idea of novel writing. And I think about, you know, 337 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 1: you settling in Massachusetts at twelve, and and there's all 338 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: these you know, notable writers and poets and authors that 339 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 1: are from there, Emily Dickinson and Everson and you know, 340 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 1: the list goes on. Did you have any you know, 341 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 1: sort of romanticized notions about what they did as a kid, 342 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 1: or was it so off your radar, and now you're 343 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: you're looking back going like, I don't know, maybe something's 344 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: in the water. I was like, I do not care 345 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 1: that Luisa may Alcott lived down the street. We need 346 00:19:57,440 --> 00:19:59,640 Speaker 1: to get home in time for friends. It starts at eight, 347 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 1: you know, like I was the whole idea of like, 348 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: you know, this is where the Transcendentalists lived, and I'm like, 349 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: I don't care. I really don't care. I just wasn't 350 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: engaged with it. And so that romanticism that you're talking about, 351 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: which I think you can tap into when it becomes 352 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: a nostalgia, but it becomes, oh, I what it must 353 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: have been like to grow up in Massachusetts. I now 354 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 1: feel that I feel that nostalgia for a childhood that 355 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: I didn't, you know, have because now that I'm in California, 356 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: I've written an entire book. It's called One True Loves, 357 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: and it's about how much I love New England and 358 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: just how completely mind blown and I am by what 359 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: incredible history exists in the town that I'm from, both 360 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: historical and from from a literature standpoint. Um, you know, 361 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: I'm completely smitten with all of it. Luisa may Alcott 362 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: is like I've now read and absorbed everything you possibly 363 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: can about Little Women. I've seen every adaptation. You know, 364 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: Um Dickinson, which is the show on Apple, which is 365 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: so good. I love I love it so much. And 366 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: I've said to multiple friends and be like, you gotta 367 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: watch the show Dickinson and Um, and they'd be like, Okay, 368 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: I'll check it out. And then what I realize is 369 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: I'm coming from such a biased standpoint. Emily Dickinson, the 370 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: character and this show is a young woman writer living 371 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: in Massachusetts, struggling with you know, how much of herself 372 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: she wants to put into her work and when you know, 373 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: does she want to grow bigger as a writer or 374 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: stay small? And it's like this, I might be your one. 375 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 1: Niche is very niche audience for Dickinson. But I love 376 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: all of it now because I didn't throw myself into 377 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 1: it when I was there. And so I too, am 378 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: romanticizing the notion of you know, Al Cotton and Emerson 379 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 1: and Henry David Threau and and and I'll say to me, 380 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: Walden Pond. My entire childhood was just like, come on, Mom, 381 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 1: take us to Walden Ponds. We can go swimming. I 382 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: was not engaged with, you know, the meaningfulness of the space, 383 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: you know, as it pertains to the history of American literature. 384 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: That was not did not care. I was just like, 385 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 1: it's a great place to swim. I'd love to go 386 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: with my friends. Can I please go? Mom? You know, 387 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,919 Speaker 1: it was kind of take it. It's sort of like 388 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: what you were saying about some of the great classics 389 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 1: that we grew up reading in school. They're almost wasted 390 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: on us as kids, and then you go back and 391 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: you realize how immense and sort of seismic those works are. 392 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: I think about it. I'm obsessed with christa Tippets podcast 393 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: on being and she interviewed Mary Oliver about a year 394 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: or two before Mary Oliver passed away, and she's, you know, 395 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: hands down one of my favorite writers of all time. 396 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: And Marry Oliver talks to her about her morning routine 397 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: and what her experiences in nature and this life that 398 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: she's lived, going for these walks and paying attention to 399 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,719 Speaker 1: the smells and the sounds and the animals and you know, 400 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: picking up rocks and feeling them between her fingers. And 401 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 1: I remember listening to this interview and thinking, I will 402 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: really have it figured out when I'm ninety one, like 403 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: Mary Oliver, like, that's when you really get it. When 404 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: the older you get, the more brilliant you are. And honestly, 405 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: I think the cooler you are. And I remember the 406 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: you know, the day that she passed away, and I 407 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: read the news, going back and listening to that interview 408 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: again and just thinking, I'm so glad this exists. I'm 409 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,959 Speaker 1: so glad I can listen to her speak, you know, 410 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 1: and not just read her words on the page. But 411 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,199 Speaker 1: you know, if if I had been eighteen when that 412 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: interview came out and when she passed away, I would 413 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: have been like, oh, yeah, that lady wrote some cool 414 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 1: books by, I would be out about a clue how 415 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: to feel about it. We I think we go through 416 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,199 Speaker 1: different periods of time in which we learned to appreciate 417 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: different parts of life. And there are so many things 418 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: that my perspective has changed over the years every single 419 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,880 Speaker 1: time that I engage with them, and I think it's 420 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: really really interesting. You know, I had mentioned The Great Gatsby. 421 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: Every time I read it, I get something different from it. 422 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: And I don't think that's just because it's a layered book, 423 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: although it is. I think it's because I'm changing, and 424 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 1: I can see how I'm changing when I re engage 425 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: with this work. And I feel that way about about 426 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: Mad Men too. It's I don't I've probably rewatched that 427 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: show more than any show, um, other than like a comedy, 428 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 1: Like I mean, I've I've rewatched Friends more than any 429 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: other show on the planet or the Office. But but 430 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: when we're talking about drama and like really engaging with 431 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 1: the work, and every single time I watched Mad Men, 432 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: I have a different opinion of Don Draper, and it's 433 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: a nuanced different opinion because in general I'm like, he's 434 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: a bad dude, but you know, my understanding of him 435 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 1: as a complete person, my understanding of Joan, of Peggy. 436 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 1: It's always changing because I'm changing, because my opinions on 437 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 1: the way that men should treat women are always changing. 438 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: They're becoming more and more nuanced. I'm understanding the world 439 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: more and stories I think help me to see that change. 440 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: I mean, there are you know, Mary Oliver is a 441 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 1: great example poetry in general. I just was not as 442 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: a teenager, even in my early twenties, I just was 443 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: not ready to do the work of engaging with text 444 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: that had you know, as good poetry often does so 445 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: much complexity to it. It really had to be a 446 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: spectacular poem to grab me. And now I'm much older, 447 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: I'm much more curious about the world. I'm like, I'll 448 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: sit and really engage with something in a way that 449 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: I'm going to get more from it and get a 450 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 1: different thing from it now than I would have. Then 451 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: I love that. And I like what you just said 452 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 1: about this revisitation, which sounds like it requires some consistency 453 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: to analyze roles and treatment and perspectives, by the way, 454 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 1: because it's very easy to you know, look at a 455 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: Don Draper and just say he's a bad guy, and 456 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: you're not wrong. But in my mind, there's this both 457 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: and where you can say, yes he is. And what 458 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 1: has this you know, historical white heteronormative patriarchy done for men, 459 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: because it's not good for them either, you know, as 460 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: much as women can say the patriarchy is bad for us, 461 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 1: it's actually really bad for men. That I say this, 462 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: I can't tell you how. I mean, multiple times a 463 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: day I say, in my house, patriarchy hurts everybody, and 464 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: and half the time at this point with my husband 465 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 1: and I has become a joke that I'm always saying it. 466 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 1: But but the thing is that it's like one person true, 467 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 1: It's true. The gender expectations hurt every single person every 468 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: single time you don't exactly match up to some imaginary 469 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: idea that the patriarchy has put forth. And so it 470 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: doesn't just hurt me as a woman who's expected to 471 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 1: have less ambition or you know whatever. Thousand ways I 472 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 1: get engaged with that, you know issue, it's also like, 473 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 1: you know, straight men, gay man, queer chake it from 474 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 1: its most like extreme example of just how is it 475 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,479 Speaker 1: hurting straight men? Like how much time do you have? 476 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: The expectation on what straight men are supposed to do, 477 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: what they're supposed to enjoy, what they're supposed to be 478 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 1: good at, is all fake, it's all it's all completely 479 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 1: made up. You know, every stay at home dad can 480 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: tell you that. Yeah. Well, and it's so interesting to 481 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: me too, because we societally there is this you know, 482 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: boys don't cry ship right, you know this tough en up, 483 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 1: be a man, grow a pair or whatever whatever, And 484 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: and then I look at men who don't know how 485 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: to feel or express their feelings. The only you know, 486 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: quote correct avenue they've ever been given for their feelings 487 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: is anger. And then it's like, well, no wonder they're 488 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 1: punching the ship out of each other all the time. 489 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: And also no wonder when and four women has been 490 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: sexually assaulted by the time she's twenty two years old, Like, yeah, 491 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 1: this is bad for all of us. Yes, we put 492 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 1: absolutely no emphasis until now, and I do think these 493 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: things are changing with younger boys. But until now, we 494 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: put absolutely no emphasis on teaching men how to deal 495 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: with their emotions. And and men are just as emotional 496 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: as women. It's you know, we we are human beings. 497 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: Things are happening to us every second of the day. 498 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: To think that we don't feel immensely all day long 499 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: about every aspect of what's happening to us is is ridiculous. 500 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: Reduces are not only our capacity for feelings, which, for 501 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: whatever reason, when we talk about feelings and emotions, everyone 502 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: always thinks you mean sensitivity, crying, sadness, whatever. But if 503 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: you don't have room for things on the sad end 504 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: of the feeling spectrum, you don't have as much room 505 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: for joy and happiness either. And so exploring these exploring 506 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: the potential for permission to be whole feeling human beings 507 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: is the thing I'm most interested in, and honestly, that's 508 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: what always brings me back to story and character, because 509 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: whether it's a television show or a film or a novel, 510 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: sometimes the modeling of feeling and experience that can be 511 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: shown by a character, an imperfect character or a great character, 512 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: you know, whether we're talking about the evils of Don 513 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: Draper or like you know, the adorable ridiculousness of Ross 514 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: on Friends. It's important for people to say, oh, maybe 515 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: I could do that, or maybe I shouldn't do that, 516 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: whatever it might and I and I get excited about 517 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: what the sort of loftiest possibility of character representation is 518 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: or can be. I mean, that is what I spend 519 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: all day every day thinking about. I I really, you know, 520 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 1: character is hugely important to me. I put it at 521 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: the center of everything that I write, as a lot 522 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: of writers do. And I'm always thinking about when I'm 523 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: creating a character, what am I putting forward? Who am 524 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: I signaling into the world, Oh I see you, you know? 525 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: Or how can this character in some way challenge the 526 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: status quo? And I think my job is to be 527 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: really lofty about it. My job is to take it 528 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: really seriously and to get really in the weeds with it, 529 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: and to imagine that it has incredible importance within my work, 530 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: and then and to be able to understand that my 531 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: work in particular probably doesn't have huge importance globally. And 532 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: so it's like for me, I'm making it, you know, 533 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: my driving force and everything that I'm doing, and then 534 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: allowing the books to go out there and take different 535 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: forms and some people engage with that part and some 536 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: people won't. And to have it be important to me 537 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: but not expect that my work be that important to 538 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: other people is sort of where I'm at with it. 539 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: But the characters that I have seen in books, in 540 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: television and movies that have made me feel less alone 541 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: or given me another way to be has had a massive, 542 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: massive impact. And I think it's it weighs both big 543 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: and small, because it could be huge things where you know, 544 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: you have like a certain storyline that hits home for 545 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: me and then I'm feeling like, oh, I'm not alone, 546 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 1: somebody else has this problem or you know whatever. But 547 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: it can also be something as simple as we're seeing 548 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: a lot of women on television now who just dressed 549 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: in like jeans and a T shirt. And it just 550 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: didn't used to be that way. Like when I was 551 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: in high school, like everybody at least looked cute. You 552 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: had to if you were a girl, you had to 553 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: at least try to look cute. You're wearing makeup, you're 554 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: you know. And now it's like there are women on 555 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: TV that are like half slobs, and I'm just loving it. 556 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: I'm like, I finally see myself. Like my my husband 557 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: and I have been joking because we're watching Mayor of 558 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: Eastown and Kate. It's yeah, and Kate Winslet. You know, 559 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: she's dressed just sort of like not focused on what 560 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: she looks like, just trying to get her job done, 561 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: the sort of like hardened detective. She literally is wearing 562 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: outfits that I own. Like my husband paused to TV 563 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: and was like, you own that shirt, and I was like, 564 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 1: I know. And the point of this show is that 565 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: she's like not glamorous beautiful Kate Winslet. So I'm a 566 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: little bit insulted that you noticed that, but like, yes, 567 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: like I now I feel seen. Now, I feel a 568 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: little bit less crazy. I too dressed like a slob. 569 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 1: Kate Winslett. You know, like it's like, that's um powerful 570 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: to me, and I think that's happening on all levels 571 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: with character all the time, and that's the stuff that 572 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: I'm consumed with during every single phase of what I'm writing. 573 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: And something I find really interesting. And you've mentioned him. 574 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: And I'm always very remiss to talk to women about 575 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: their husbands because I feel like we we get asked 576 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: the bullshit questions of like, oh, you're in a relationship, 577 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: how do you balance having a career with a person 578 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: who loves you? And it's like, how does he do it? 579 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: I don't know, but I what I love about the 580 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: way that you've spoken about Alex is the reality that 581 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: you've highlighted and you said something earlier. You know, you 582 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: wrote this first novel and it didn't sell, but everyone 583 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: said we want to read the next one, and you 584 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: mentioned that. Then you quit your job and you sat 585 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: down and you very quickly turned out your next book, 586 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: and that is a feat in and of itself, and 587 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: I really want to talk to you about your process. 588 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: But what I find so interesting is that in articles 589 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: where you've detailed your history, you've said it meant so 590 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,760 Speaker 1: much to me, and I'm paraphrasing here, but you essentially 591 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: said that it meant so much to you is in 592 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 1: yourself that your husband said, I really believe in you, 593 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 1: and all I'll take the reins and all sort of 594 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: suck it up and run our household while you do 595 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: nothing but righte this next book. And and you said 596 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 1: something that I love that Alex is your muse. And 597 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 1: you you write about how we don't often use the 598 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: word muse when we talk about men. It's it's a 599 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: narrative that's ascribed to women who are inspiring, who who 600 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: are sidelined to give men glory. And here was your 601 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: husband being like, yeah, I'll just pick up all this 602 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: ship so you can, you know, live your dream. And 603 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: you really flipped a narrative. You know, historically all of 604 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: these male writers, you know, famous writers have relied on 605 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:03,240 Speaker 1: their spouses at times. Fitzgerald stolen pages of their spouses 606 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 1: journals for their own books. And and and here you were 607 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 1: being like, yeah, you do it like you be, Mr Mom, 608 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 1: I'm going to write this book. So how I don't know, 609 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: how how do you how do you find that in 610 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,240 Speaker 1: a relationship? And I don't even know if I actually 611 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:21,759 Speaker 1: have a question. I guess what I'm really saying is 612 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: thank you for being honest about that, and also for 613 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: modeling that it's possible, because I feel like so many 614 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,760 Speaker 1: people don't talk about how they actually in a real, 615 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: you know, working family, do share labor and and it's 616 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 1: a lovely thing as a woman to hear you say, yeah, 617 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: my husband like took over all of this labor so 618 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: I could go and do this work. And I was like, 619 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: yeah it did I have those two Yeah, I mean 620 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,879 Speaker 1: he did, and he continues to. And here's the thing. 621 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 1: When I talk about Alex in terms of my career, 622 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: I feel conflict it for a different reason than you 623 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,359 Speaker 1: feel conflicted in asking the question, even though your your 624 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,239 Speaker 1: conflict and asking the question, I get to But I 625 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: think there are a lot of women who are married 626 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,879 Speaker 1: to men who do support their careers and do pick 627 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: up the slack. I think there's a lot of women 628 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,879 Speaker 1: who are married to men who don't. And I want 629 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: to talk about how my marriage works because for the 630 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: same reason that we were just talking about before. You know, 631 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: when you see something modeled, when you see somebody say 632 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,280 Speaker 1: this is how my marriage works, it makes it hopefully 633 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: easier for another woman to say this is how I 634 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: would like my marriage to work. I distinctly remember being 635 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:45,920 Speaker 1: a teenager and there was a sitcom on that you know, 636 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: it's like shlubby guy married to supermodel whatever and yeah, 637 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: and the premise of the episode was something about like, oh, 638 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 1: this beautiful woman like has a dumb hairstyle and he 639 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: doesn't like it, and all of his friends are like, dude, 640 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 1: you gotta tell her, you know, she looks terrible. Like 641 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,720 Speaker 1: I couldn't deal with that. And I was just watching 642 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: the show and I'm like, I'm never getting married, that 643 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: was my thought. I was like, I'm never doing this. 644 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: I'm never engaging with this, Like I don't want to 645 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: be treated like that. If those are my options, if 646 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 1: that's how men are, like, I just I don't. I 647 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 1: don't want it. And and that is how marriage is 648 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: so often portrayed, or had been portrayed up until a 649 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 1: certain point in my life, was like men are in 650 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 1: charge and women are supposed to be beautiful, and you 651 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: can just speak that disrespectfully about the person that you're 652 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: supposed to love, you know. And I just was like yeah, 653 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,439 Speaker 1: and I was just like I'm not doing it. And 654 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: so it was really powerful to me to see that 655 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 1: there's a massive difference between how marriages are portrayed on 656 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: television and if they're really like and I think there 657 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 1: are a lot of men who do step up. The 658 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,359 Speaker 1: reason I feel conflicted, coming background to this long way 659 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 1: of explaining it, is that there are a lot of 660 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: women who don't have what I have and it's not 661 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 1: their fault, and it's not because they chose poor la 662 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: or it's not because it's just because the system is 663 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: messed up. And so look, I want other women to 664 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: know that my husband paid the bills for two months 665 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 1: so that I could write my first book. He then 666 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: worked on ideas with me. He reads every single one 667 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,240 Speaker 1: of my books. He gives me notes on them. And 668 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: when we had a kid, for the majority of our relationship, 669 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,799 Speaker 1: Alex made more money than I did. And then we 670 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: had a kid and it threw everything. Alex as a screenwriter, 671 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:44,479 Speaker 1: and so we both have demanding jobs and now there's 672 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: a kid involved, and the question of who's going to 673 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: do what came up very quickly, and basically, by the 674 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: time my kid was a year old, I started being 675 00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: the breadwinner and making more money, and Alex was immediately 676 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: on board and said your career is the one that 677 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: we should be focused on. And he would take on 678 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,839 Speaker 1: more than of the childcare in order to give me 679 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:22,439 Speaker 1: the time to do my work. So when I'm out 680 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: on a book tour and I'm gone for three weeks, 681 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: he's taking care of everything, and he's and he it's 682 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 1: not being treated like he's babysitting or he's pitching in. 683 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: It's like he's her father and my husband is the 684 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,800 Speaker 1: one who makes sure that things don't fall through the cracks. 685 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 1: And look, it's a really complicated thing when we talk 686 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 1: about the patriarchy. The patriarchy hurts everyone. This is an 687 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,399 Speaker 1: example of I'm often going, am I not doing enough? 688 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,399 Speaker 1: You know, Like, shouldn't I be doing more? I'm the mom. 689 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,359 Speaker 1: Doesn't that mean I need to be doing most of 690 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,319 Speaker 1: the child care? You know? And my husband's like, I 691 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 1: enjoy it. I like being with her kid, I love 692 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 1: taking her to the park, I love hanging out with her. 693 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,359 Speaker 1: And so I'm beating myself up for not doing more, 694 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: you know. And there's a world where Alex could beat 695 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 1: himself up because I'm bringing in more money, and it's 696 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: like whatever, this idea of how marriage is supposed to 697 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,440 Speaker 1: work our doesn't work that way. It just doesn't. And 698 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 1: if I if I wanted to compare myself to that standard, 699 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 1: we would be failing. But we're thriving. So you know, 700 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, like that's so interesting because when you say, well, 701 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: you know, I could beat myself up about time and 702 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: he could beat himself about resources. And I'm like, but 703 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: isn't it crazy that we've been all of us have 704 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:45,360 Speaker 1: been essentially trained or cultured to beat ourselves up for 705 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: what's going great. Guys are nailing it. You're nailing it. 706 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:52,840 Speaker 1: And that's that's exactly it. And the thing that I 707 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: have decided in my head, which I think is sort 708 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 1: of funny, but when I get in my space of like, 709 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,359 Speaker 1: oh am I working too much? Or is am I 710 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: asking Alex to do too much? Or whatever, I just 711 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,799 Speaker 1: change the words in my head for a moment and 712 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,240 Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, I'm the dad and Alex is the mom. 713 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: Are we meeting those expectations? And it's like, oh my god, 714 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 1: if if what I am as a dad, I'm the 715 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,680 Speaker 1: world's best dad, Like I'm such a good debt. If 716 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: I'm comparing myself to like an eighties dad, like I'm 717 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 1: such a good dad, you know. It's like you know, 718 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,640 Speaker 1: and so it gives me a moment of like, Okay, 719 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,400 Speaker 1: so these are just made up words. Like the point 720 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: is like is my child taking care of is? Does 721 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 1: she feel loved? Does she have time with both her parents? Like? 722 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: And yes, you know? And like can we pay our bills? 723 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,759 Speaker 1: Are we both fulfilled? Yes? And the times in which 724 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 1: I feel insecure about it are the times in which 725 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,040 Speaker 1: the idea of should gets into my head. A woman 726 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,400 Speaker 1: should inherently be these things. It's still a voice in 727 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 1: my head and when I have to battle, and it's 728 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 1: not something that comes out passively, it has to be excised. 729 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:06,600 Speaker 1: And so that is like I having a kid made 730 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,440 Speaker 1: it much worse for me because I think as a woman, 731 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 1: I had so many messages about motherhood just just in 732 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 1: me that had been there, you know, that that society 733 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,759 Speaker 1: had been putting there since day one. And it's been 734 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,640 Speaker 1: a process of removing those. But talking to other women 735 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,600 Speaker 1: helps because you realize, like, oh, you also your your 736 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:32,759 Speaker 1: marriage also a function like that. Oh, there's actually a 737 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 1: lot of marriages that functioned like that. It's not that different, 738 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,239 Speaker 1: but we just never talked about that. I I want 739 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: to ask a question that I imagine many of our 740 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 1: listeners at home are wondering, which is, you know, your 741 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 1: first novel didn't sell. I imagine that was really hard. 742 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,400 Speaker 1: How did you get over that? How did you motivate 743 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 1: yourself to start over? And how did you not take 744 00:42:55,760 --> 00:43:01,160 Speaker 1: that criticism and internalize it? Or maybe it wasn't even criticism, 745 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,759 Speaker 1: by the way, but generally it feels like it is 746 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,319 Speaker 1: when someone says no, So how do you metabolize that 747 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:11,520 Speaker 1: event and then become, you know, a New York Times 748 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,479 Speaker 1: bestseller and and be nailing it? How does it work? 749 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:18,359 Speaker 1: You know? I'm actually really glad you've asked this question 750 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:22,160 Speaker 1: because it I really have a very concrete and specific 751 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: answer for this. And I realized, this is a story 752 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,799 Speaker 1: that I've never really told anybody. So my first book 753 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,400 Speaker 1: didn't sell. I was disappointed. And look, every time you 754 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 1: get a forwarded email that's like thanks so much for 755 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:39,319 Speaker 1: sending us this. You know, ultimately, this story just felt 756 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,000 Speaker 1: a little trite or you know whatever, it's like, oh, okay, 757 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:47,480 Speaker 1: you know, but when it ends with you know, we'd 758 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,440 Speaker 1: like to see something else, It's like, okay, you know what, 759 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,400 Speaker 1: like get up, move on, you know, and so I 760 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,719 Speaker 1: wrote this book, which became Forever Interrupted, and I had 761 00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:58,840 Speaker 1: this agent who was the agent who had read my 762 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,200 Speaker 1: first book and offered me representation. I had never searched 763 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 1: for anybody. It was like, this woman just appeared in 764 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,239 Speaker 1: my life, and I was I couldn't believe I was 765 00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: that lucky. So I write this book, Forever Interrupted. And 766 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:15,600 Speaker 1: the premise of Forever Interrupted was a lot different than 767 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 1: than the first book that I've written. The first book 768 00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:19,319 Speaker 1: that I've written was basically it was written from the 769 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,080 Speaker 1: point of view of this young man and he's in 770 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,360 Speaker 1: love with his best friend and how's he going to 771 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:29,240 Speaker 1: tell her? And then you know, chaos and sues. And 772 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: then I was like, well, the next thing that I 773 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:34,120 Speaker 1: want to write is about a young woman who elopes 774 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,000 Speaker 1: with her husband. My husband and I hit eloped, and 775 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 1: so I really wanted to write about that rush of 776 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:44,400 Speaker 1: like meeting to someone and knowing, you know, I wanted 777 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: to write that, but I wanted to write a tragedy. 778 00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:51,319 Speaker 1: And so I was like, so totally different than my life, 779 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,360 Speaker 1: but also a little bit. I went through a period 780 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,880 Speaker 1: of time long story short, where I was so happy 781 00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:58,880 Speaker 1: with my husband that I was convinced something terrible was 782 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 1: about to happen, because how could I possibly be this happy? 783 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,640 Speaker 1: That really cuts that speaks to me. I'm like, oh yeah, 784 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 1: deep anxiety, yep, I know what that is. Yeah. So 785 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,239 Speaker 1: I so I exercised that by writing this book, where 786 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,400 Speaker 1: basically it's called Forever Interrupted. She meets this guy they elope, 787 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:15,359 Speaker 1: love of her life, but then he dies in an 788 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 1: accident about nine days after they elope, and so she 789 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,960 Speaker 1: has to deal with a number of things, but one 790 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:24,600 Speaker 1: of them being her mother in law that she's never 791 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,759 Speaker 1: met before. And so I wrote that book. I sent 792 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: it to my agent. She didn't like it, and she 793 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,760 Speaker 1: gave me a round of notes. I took those notes 794 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,440 Speaker 1: to the best that I could. She gave me another 795 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:44,600 Speaker 1: round of notes, and and basically her feeling was I 796 00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:46,840 Speaker 1: think it was more like I'm not saying it's a 797 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,840 Speaker 1: page one rewrite, but was kind of, you know, the vibe. 798 00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:53,759 Speaker 1: And she didn't like what I was doing. She she 799 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,279 Speaker 1: wasn't into it. I was. I was just devastated. She 800 00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 1: wasn't going to take it out on submission unless it 801 00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,799 Speaker 1: was something she was passionate about what she should absolutely do, 802 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,400 Speaker 1: Like that's no question she should not do something. She 803 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 1: didn't believe it, and I did believe in it. And 804 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,960 Speaker 1: then I had this this other person who was kind 805 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:17,200 Speaker 1: of like a manager in my career, and I was like, well, 806 00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:18,880 Speaker 1: did you like it? And she was like, I didn't 807 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:24,920 Speaker 1: finish it, and I was like, oh God, and I 808 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,520 Speaker 1: just kept going like I think this book is good, 809 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:35,680 Speaker 1: but nobody likes it. And I distinctly remember I got 810 00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:40,280 Speaker 1: in the shower, I was bawling my eyes out. I 811 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,480 Speaker 1: wrapped myself in a towel, put my hair in his towel. 812 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,880 Speaker 1: I lay down on my bed and I was like, 813 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,040 Speaker 1: do I just give up? Because the only agent that 814 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:50,640 Speaker 1: I have is not going to go out with this book. 815 00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:55,719 Speaker 1: And I'm getting messages that maybe what I think is 816 00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,200 Speaker 1: good is not good. I've already failed once, and I 817 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:01,840 Speaker 1: just so when I was a kid, I was really 818 00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:06,360 Speaker 1: really obsessed with um Lucille Ball. I watched I Love 819 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:10,360 Speaker 1: Lucy all the time, and I got just really like 820 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,879 Speaker 1: I read every single biography and autobiography. There was like, 821 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:16,440 Speaker 1: you know, other kids were like playing in the pool 822 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,360 Speaker 1: and I was like reading Lucille Ball's autobiography. It was 823 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:22,560 Speaker 1: just obsessed with her, and as not a book reader 824 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:24,440 Speaker 1: that was huge that like that, but like I was 825 00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:28,160 Speaker 1: that dedicated to that. And when Lucy, I don't know 826 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,359 Speaker 1: how old she was, but it was before she broke 827 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:35,279 Speaker 1: into Hollywood. She was in an acting school and I 828 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:40,239 Speaker 1: believe one of her classmates was Betty Davis. And the 829 00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,360 Speaker 1: teacher at the acting school writes home to her mom, 830 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:50,320 Speaker 1: I think and says, I cannot keep taking your money. 831 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:55,800 Speaker 1: Lucille has no talent and is never going to get anywhere. 832 00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,400 Speaker 1: And Lucy had to decide, you know, what to do, 833 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:06,399 Speaker 1: and she, if my memory is correct, she thought about 834 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,560 Speaker 1: giving up, and then she decided that person didn't know 835 00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,319 Speaker 1: what they were talking about, and she found, you know, 836 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,319 Speaker 1: another acting school to go to and eventually signed with 837 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:20,080 Speaker 1: r KO and and you know, after that, you know, 838 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,240 Speaker 1: in her in her forties, late thirties and early forties, 839 00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,680 Speaker 1: became who we know as you know as Lucy Ricardo basically. 840 00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:29,879 Speaker 1: And I'm laying in my bed that day, and I'm 841 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,880 Speaker 1: in a towel and I'm sobbing, and I'm just going, 842 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:39,240 Speaker 1: you know, what would Lucy do? And Lucy, I knew 843 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:46,080 Speaker 1: Lucy would have would have found another agent, and so 844 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,680 Speaker 1: I thought, well, can I do that or am I 845 00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:54,600 Speaker 1: ready to just let this dream go? And I just said, well, 846 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:58,080 Speaker 1: I gotta I still have it in me right now 847 00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,239 Speaker 1: to do to do what See would have done. And 848 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:03,879 Speaker 1: so I parted ways with that agent, I parted ways 849 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:07,040 Speaker 1: with the manager. I went on blind submission to like 850 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:11,400 Speaker 1: thirty different agents and found one who understood what I 851 00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:15,040 Speaker 1: was trying to do, and within a year sold Forever 852 00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,640 Speaker 1: Interrupted to Simon and Schuster. And I think back on 853 00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:20,359 Speaker 1: that moment all the time, because it was a huge 854 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,040 Speaker 1: turning point for me, and I could have made either decision. 855 00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:24,719 Speaker 1: It really felt like I was on a fence and 856 00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:26,600 Speaker 1: it was like I was being tipped one way or 857 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,800 Speaker 1: the other, and I just happened. I just luckily tipped myself, 858 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,600 Speaker 1: you know, in what hindsight feels like the right the 859 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:39,239 Speaker 1: right direction. But I have found immense I guess fortune 860 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:42,839 Speaker 1: in betting on myself. And I think failing doesn't mean 861 00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,600 Speaker 1: that you can't just double down. I think I have 862 00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:47,279 Speaker 1: a good sense of my gut of when something is 863 00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:51,160 Speaker 1: good or if it's not, and believing in yourself and 864 00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:55,879 Speaker 1: having that gut sense means you can weather. You can 865 00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,560 Speaker 1: get knocked down a few times, and it's a little 866 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,880 Speaker 1: bit easier to get up. If you're not sure if 867 00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:02,760 Speaker 1: you're good, then yeah, you might stay on the ground. 868 00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:04,600 Speaker 1: And I think I think that's the thing that's gotten 869 00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:06,839 Speaker 1: me through is a confidence of like, no, this is good. 870 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:08,680 Speaker 1: I do things and they're bad sometimes and I can 871 00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:11,520 Speaker 1: read them be like, oh that was bad. But you know, 872 00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,080 Speaker 1: it's having that confidence of like this one's good, I 873 00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:18,160 Speaker 1: could do this. But I think that's important too, is 874 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,440 Speaker 1: when you're honest with yourself and you know when you're like, 875 00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,000 Speaker 1: I could have done that better well, And you have 876 00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,360 Speaker 1: to have confidence in order to be okay, to admit 877 00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,800 Speaker 1: to yourself that somebody's bad, right, Like it's it's really 878 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,520 Speaker 1: if you're desperately struggling to prove to yourself that you belong, 879 00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:38,040 Speaker 1: that you're good, that you're worthy, then you don't have 880 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,960 Speaker 1: any room to be bad. The more successful I get, 881 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:43,960 Speaker 1: the easier it is for me to talk about the 882 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,280 Speaker 1: times I failed, the things I've done that we're bad. 883 00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,960 Speaker 1: I can see my work with greater with greater clarity 884 00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:56,600 Speaker 1: because I don't feel desperate to know that I'm good. 885 00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:00,040 Speaker 1: I feel the confidence. It's a quiet, passive calm. But 886 00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,319 Speaker 1: in so there's some there's some worth in what I'm 887 00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,799 Speaker 1: doing to somebody. So the trick and if I could 888 00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:07,680 Speaker 1: go back in time, I feel like it's what I 889 00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:10,080 Speaker 1: would hope to teach myself, and it's what I'm trying 890 00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:15,640 Speaker 1: to teach my daughter is to have that confidence before 891 00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:19,480 Speaker 1: you've had the validation. And and that's the thing that 892 00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,000 Speaker 1: I didn't have, and it would be disingenuous for me 893 00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:24,239 Speaker 1: to say that I did. But it is with my 894 00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:26,960 Speaker 1: daughter where I'm really trying to instill with her the 895 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:31,240 Speaker 1: sense of confidence, not just because I'm saying good job 896 00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:34,200 Speaker 1: on this, you know, handwriting, you know which it's it's 897 00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,040 Speaker 1: it's it's a hard thing to instill in somebody, but 898 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,359 Speaker 1: I think I think for her will pay dividends if 899 00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,960 Speaker 1: I could, if I can figure it out. Yeah, for sure, 900 00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:50,320 Speaker 1: for sure. I think a permission to fail is required 901 00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:54,200 Speaker 1: to succeed. And you know, that's something I've really been 902 00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:58,720 Speaker 1: trying to give myself because I wasn't. I wasn't raised 903 00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:01,000 Speaker 1: with that. No, I mean I don't think any of 904 00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:02,960 Speaker 1: us were, right. I mean it's like now, I think 905 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,480 Speaker 1: it's a much newer moment, you know, in our in 906 00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:08,680 Speaker 1: our generation, and we go, okay, we got to break 907 00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:11,920 Speaker 1: the cycle of perfectionism because it doesn't exist. So really, 908 00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:16,359 Speaker 1: the the net result of quote perfectionism is just more 909 00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:18,960 Speaker 1: and more self loathing. Yeah, we don't want to give 910 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:21,400 Speaker 1: that to our kids, so what are we gonna do? Well? 911 00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:24,600 Speaker 1: The the movement now, which is has just been life 912 00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,279 Speaker 1: changing for me, and in a way, you know, as 913 00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:29,120 Speaker 1: a parent, it feels a little bit like, well, it's 914 00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:31,680 Speaker 1: too late for me, but you can save yourself. Kid. 915 00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,680 Speaker 1: Is like, you know, you praise the effort, not the result, 916 00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:39,560 Speaker 1: you know, to me, if somebody says, hey, Taylor, I 917 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:43,439 Speaker 1: know you tried really really hard on this, but it's 918 00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:49,120 Speaker 1: not that good dagger to my heart, right right into 919 00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,239 Speaker 1: my soul. If somebody was like, Taylor, I don't think 920 00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,600 Speaker 1: you worked on this for one second and it's brilliant, 921 00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:56,600 Speaker 1: I would be like, oh, I'm a genius, you know, 922 00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:01,600 Speaker 1: Like and how terrible. Like we we have been taught 923 00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,719 Speaker 1: that to be perfect, it has to come naturally to us. 924 00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,239 Speaker 1: It has to be effortless, it has to be you know, 925 00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,680 Speaker 1: when it is absurd, it's totally absurd. And also it's 926 00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:14,520 Speaker 1: like there are moment like I'm such a tryer like that, 927 00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:18,240 Speaker 1: even the Taylor Swift song of like this is me trying. 928 00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:21,600 Speaker 1: Like I'm just trying all the time. I'm just trying. 929 00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:23,719 Speaker 1: I'm trying to be a good mom, and I'm trying 930 00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:25,279 Speaker 1: to be a better writer, I'm trying to be a 931 00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:27,920 Speaker 1: good friend. It's just like so much effort that I'm 932 00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:31,560 Speaker 1: putting into all of it. I'm trying, and like the 933 00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,359 Speaker 1: fact that things are supposed to look effortless is like, oh, 934 00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:36,839 Speaker 1: God's on top of all this trying, I also have 935 00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:38,719 Speaker 1: to try and make it look like I didn't try. 936 00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:44,560 Speaker 1: It's like no, and so what what freedom to just 937 00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,960 Speaker 1: be able to say I'm trying and what I'm proud 938 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:51,080 Speaker 1: of is that I'm trying. And if I fail, or 939 00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:53,160 Speaker 1: if it's not good or it's not good enough for me, 940 00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,200 Speaker 1: or I want to do better, that's just another opportunity 941 00:53:56,280 --> 00:54:01,160 Speaker 1: to try to enjoy the journey of the effort and 942 00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:04,600 Speaker 1: not just you know the pad on the head. Yeah, 943 00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:10,280 Speaker 1: to enjoy the journey of the effort feels really important. 944 00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,959 Speaker 1: That feels like an unlocking of something. If we could 945 00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:18,520 Speaker 1: all accept that and give ourselves that permission. And I 946 00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:21,279 Speaker 1: will say, you know, being an author one of the 947 00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:25,080 Speaker 1: things that is a luxury, I guess I would say, 948 00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:29,040 Speaker 1: is that all of my or most of my trying happens. 949 00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:32,759 Speaker 1: It's just me and nobody can see it, you know. 950 00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:35,600 Speaker 1: So nobody can see you know, nobody reads my first draft. 951 00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:38,799 Speaker 1: They don't know how bad it is. Yeah, yeah, and 952 00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:42,560 Speaker 1: so you know, there is some peace in that trying. 953 00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:46,439 Speaker 1: I don't feel pressure in that, and so my relationship 954 00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:50,720 Speaker 1: with my books is finding. I'm just having fun. I'm enjoying. 955 00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:54,400 Speaker 1: It's really hard work, but it's work that I love doing, 956 00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:58,960 Speaker 1: and it's something I look forward to because I don't 957 00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,759 Speaker 1: feel the need to. There's no performance aspect of it. 958 00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:04,200 Speaker 1: No one can see it. So it can be an 959 00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:07,960 Speaker 1: absolutely terrible first draft where my publisher would, if they 960 00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:09,560 Speaker 1: ever saw it, would come in and take away my 961 00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:11,480 Speaker 1: book deal. They based so horrified. You know, it's like 962 00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,040 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. Nobody's gonna know. I 963 00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,120 Speaker 1: can't tell you, like I'll go through and just be 964 00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:20,239 Speaker 1: like like I'll write a first draft and it's very 965 00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:22,799 Speaker 1: like I'm just letting the words flow, and is this 966 00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,080 Speaker 1: a bad analogy? I don't just put it in there. 967 00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:27,520 Speaker 1: We'll figure out something later, you know, like this metaphor 968 00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:29,200 Speaker 1: is probably stupid, but just put it in so I 969 00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:31,319 Speaker 1: don't forget it, you know, and then I'll go back 970 00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,640 Speaker 1: and read it and they'll be like, my god, this 971 00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:39,960 Speaker 1: is complete garbage. I mean, it's like it's it's it's mundane, 972 00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:44,280 Speaker 1: it's cliche, it's you know, I'm writing a book now. 973 00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,279 Speaker 1: On the first draft was like make here for dating 974 00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:50,000 Speaker 1: a movie star who's like very clearly bred pitt And 975 00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:52,640 Speaker 1: I was like, this is so stupid, Like why did 976 00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:56,359 Speaker 1: I do that? This is embarrassing, But like but like 977 00:55:57,000 --> 00:55:59,640 Speaker 1: it was fun to write at the time, you know, 978 00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:01,920 Speaker 1: and you're like, all right, I got that out. Now 979 00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:04,800 Speaker 1: I gotta scrap it and then go write something of quality. 980 00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,920 Speaker 1: Um interesting, because you can just race it. I'm fine 981 00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:12,720 Speaker 1: with me being bad myself. It's just when other people 982 00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:14,560 Speaker 1: see it that I start it starts to feel a 983 00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:18,040 Speaker 1: little bit crippling. Um well, and that is a thing 984 00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:21,160 Speaker 1: to your point about you know, we're both storytellers, but 985 00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:27,880 Speaker 1: an actor has to care about material enough to fail 986 00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:30,840 Speaker 1: in front of other people to eventually find the success. 987 00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:33,759 Speaker 1: You know, I will never forget I worked on this 988 00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:37,160 Speaker 1: project that Charlie's Thearren produced, and so imagine trying to 989 00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:40,640 Speaker 1: keep your cool around that she's perfect. I'm like, there's 990 00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:44,120 Speaker 1: no such thing as perfection except maybe Charlie. And we 991 00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:47,480 Speaker 1: were sitting around talking one night and she told me 992 00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:51,719 Speaker 1: a story about working with this incredibly famous actor, like 993 00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:53,759 Speaker 1: probably one of the top five greatest actors of all time. 994 00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:55,000 Speaker 1: And I'm not going to say who it is because 995 00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:57,000 Speaker 1: it's her story and I don't know if I'm supposed 996 00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:58,680 Speaker 1: to repeated or not, but I'm going to tell you 997 00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:01,520 Speaker 1: the point, which is she was talking about being on 998 00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:03,360 Speaker 1: this movie with him, and you know, sort of in 999 00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:05,040 Speaker 1: the same way that I was feeling around her, just 1000 00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:09,520 Speaker 1: like shaky knees being in front of an icon, and 1001 00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:12,400 Speaker 1: she said, you know, when we start this major scene 1002 00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:17,160 Speaker 1: and she's like and he's bad, like not not good, 1003 00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:20,800 Speaker 1: like terrible bad, bad bad, and she couldn't believe it. 1004 00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:22,320 Speaker 1: And she was like, oh my god, you know, maybe 1005 00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:23,920 Speaker 1: he's just lost it. Maybe he's been doing it for 1006 00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:26,360 Speaker 1: so long he's lost it. And then they do another 1007 00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:30,840 Speaker 1: take and it's also really bad, but really different, and 1008 00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:35,720 Speaker 1: she's going, what is happening here? Like what am I watching? 1009 00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:38,120 Speaker 1: She says, and then they queue up the third take 1010 00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:45,560 Speaker 1: and he is fucking brilliant, and she's like what just happened, 1011 00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:48,160 Speaker 1: and then make you up a fourth take and she 1012 00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:51,520 Speaker 1: says it's unbelievable, but so different from the one before. 1013 00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:54,240 Speaker 1: And then they're like, oh, we think we got it. 1014 00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:57,640 Speaker 1: And she's kind of looking at him and he's, you know, 1015 00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:00,600 Speaker 1: a legend, so he knows and he looks at her 1016 00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,440 Speaker 1: and he just says, you gotta put it all out there, 1017 00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:05,080 Speaker 1: even if it's terrible, because if you don't do the 1018 00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:08,440 Speaker 1: terrible thing, you won't do the amazing thing. And she 1019 00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:11,680 Speaker 1: said it completely changed her philosophy on acting, and I thought, 1020 00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:18,840 Speaker 1: what a terrifying thing to go so, you know, for 1021 00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:21,640 Speaker 1: lack of a better term, like balls out just in 1022 00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:24,560 Speaker 1: trying something so you can be like, oh, no, that 1023 00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:26,560 Speaker 1: was horrible. I'm actually gonna do the opposite of that, 1024 00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:29,160 Speaker 1: and it's going to be incredible. What I mean, the 1025 00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:35,360 Speaker 1: confidence that that requires just truly knocks me down. It 1026 00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:39,560 Speaker 1: It reminds me of what we can strive for. And 1027 00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:42,120 Speaker 1: and hearing you essentially talk about your process of that 1028 00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:43,720 Speaker 1: as a writer, I'm like, well, of course you've written 1029 00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:46,960 Speaker 1: all these books I'm obsessed with and and I do 1030 00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:49,120 Speaker 1: want to just say I hate to ever look at time, 1031 00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:50,880 Speaker 1: but you you do have a lot going on, and 1032 00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:52,920 Speaker 1: you are launching a book, and you do have a 1033 00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:55,360 Speaker 1: child in a you know life, and so I know 1034 00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:57,480 Speaker 1: we're running out of times, So I'm gonna blast through 1035 00:58:57,520 --> 00:58:59,200 Speaker 1: a little bit of what I was meaning to talk 1036 00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:01,920 Speaker 1: about for so much longer. But you know, you became 1037 00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:04,440 Speaker 1: a household name speaking of books that you've written that 1038 00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:07,480 Speaker 1: you've left it all on the table for with Daisy 1039 00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:10,320 Speaker 1: Jones and the six I mean New York Times bestseller, 1040 00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:13,840 Speaker 1: everyone lost their minds. It's you know, described from the 1041 00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,120 Speaker 1: website as quote. I love to read a quote and 1042 00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:17,800 Speaker 1: makes you feel like I'm bragging about the people who 1043 00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:20,560 Speaker 1: come on my show. Um. It's a gripping novel about 1044 00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:23,240 Speaker 1: the whirlwind rise of an iconic nine seventies rock group 1045 00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:25,760 Speaker 1: and their beautiful lead singer, revealing the mystery behind their 1046 00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:29,680 Speaker 1: infamous breakup. And people went ballistic over this book. Everyone 1047 00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:31,280 Speaker 1: was like, oh, this is a biography. Who's it about? 1048 00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:34,320 Speaker 1: Everyone thought it was about Fleetwood Mac. Then people realized 1049 00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:36,560 Speaker 1: it was fiction, and then people were like, maybe it 1050 00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:40,960 Speaker 1: was inspired by Fleetwood Mac or or who who knows? 1051 00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:44,680 Speaker 1: But and this is the book that, as we mentioned earlier, 1052 00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:47,640 Speaker 1: we Witherspoon is adapting you're making it into a mini 1053 00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:53,120 Speaker 1: series for Amazon. I mean, so cool. I wonder about 1054 00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:58,040 Speaker 1: that experience for you as a writer. You know, you 1055 00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:02,360 Speaker 1: you're you're selling work, and this book just hits the 1056 01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:05,400 Speaker 1: zeitgeist and everybody's talking about it and everybody's trying to 1057 01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:07,040 Speaker 1: solve it, which I kind of also feel like it 1058 01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:08,720 Speaker 1: must be so fun because they're like, I didn't mean 1059 01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:12,000 Speaker 1: to make it a mystery, but it is um And 1060 01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:13,960 Speaker 1: and then you know, you get a call from Reese, 1061 01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:19,440 Speaker 1: another icon, and I feel like, as an observer and 1062 01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:23,560 Speaker 1: a fan of yours, that there must be something in 1063 01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:26,160 Speaker 1: the magic of it, because the themes feel true for 1064 01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:30,560 Speaker 1: everyone in its specificity, it is also interestingly universal. And 1065 01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:34,280 Speaker 1: you're talking about female strength and contemporary obsession with celebrity 1066 01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:38,200 Speaker 1: and and there was a quote in the Irish Times 1067 01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,120 Speaker 1: and I love how much they write about you. They like, 1068 01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:42,720 Speaker 1: they really their articles are so great, and they said 1069 01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:45,360 Speaker 1: that it isn't just an exercise in nine seventies nostalgia. 1070 01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:48,760 Speaker 1: It has plenty to say that's relevant today about women's lives, 1071 01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:53,080 Speaker 1: strength and ambitions, art, addiction, love, infidelity, and the choices 1072 01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:59,640 Speaker 1: we make around motherhood and relationships. And yes, as a 1073 01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:03,200 Speaker 1: reader or I'm like, that's exactly it, That's exactly it. 1074 01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:08,840 Speaker 1: This concept of time and identity is just so fascinating. 1075 01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:10,760 Speaker 1: And obviously we talked about time this year kind of 1076 01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:16,000 Speaker 1: being Taffy. I wonder what inspired you to jump into 1077 01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:20,200 Speaker 1: that time? What what made you want to examine that? 1078 01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:22,080 Speaker 1: And then of course I want to ask about time 1079 01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:25,480 Speaker 1: with your new book too. Yeah, I mean for me, 1080 01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:28,240 Speaker 1: for any book that I'm writing lately, it's really about 1081 01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:30,520 Speaker 1: where do I want to go? Where don I want 1082 01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:34,560 Speaker 1: to go in my mind? Because my my logic is 1083 01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:36,439 Speaker 1: if I want to go there, then I think other 1084 01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:39,320 Speaker 1: people might want to go there too, And and so 1085 01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:41,840 Speaker 1: it's a too, It's sort of a two pronged approach. 1086 01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:43,240 Speaker 1: It's like, well, where do I want to go? Where 1087 01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:44,640 Speaker 1: do I want to spend time? Where don want to 1088 01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:46,960 Speaker 1: escape to? Where do I want to engage with the 1089 01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:51,880 Speaker 1: nostalgia and romanticism of because it's not real? But where 1090 01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:54,200 Speaker 1: do I want to go? And then it becomes what 1091 01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:57,000 Speaker 1: story do I want to tell when I'm there? And 1092 01:01:57,280 --> 01:01:59,600 Speaker 1: with Daisy Jones, you know, look we can go back 1093 01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:01,640 Speaker 1: to the set and D's and have fun and be 1094 01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:06,400 Speaker 1: in this world of of like you know, Stevie Nick's 1095 01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:12,280 Speaker 1: adjacent and and the cool clothes and and the good music, 1096 01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:16,240 Speaker 1: and you know, but while we're here, what are we 1097 01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:20,200 Speaker 1: talking about? And for me, never say never. There are 1098 01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:22,160 Speaker 1: a number of things I can't predict. But I don't 1099 01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:26,080 Speaker 1: see myself anytime soon not writing about what it means 1100 01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:30,360 Speaker 1: to be a woman in the space whatever space it 1101 01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:32,960 Speaker 1: is that I'm choosing to write about. So what So 1102 01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:35,160 Speaker 1: what does it mean to be a woman in rock? 1103 01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:36,960 Speaker 1: What does it mean to be a woman in this 1104 01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:41,400 Speaker 1: male dominated space? That's very gate kept. I don't know 1105 01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:43,680 Speaker 1: if you can put gate keeping in the past tense, 1106 01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:46,680 Speaker 1: but we'll say gate kept. Who were the women that thrive? 1107 01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:51,760 Speaker 1: How do they navigate that world? And then I'm writing 1108 01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:55,600 Speaker 1: this book, you know it was I guess twenty twenty 1109 01:02:55,960 --> 01:03:00,400 Speaker 1: seventeen when I wrote it. It's a totally irround elevant 1110 01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:03,240 Speaker 1: ride to go on unless it is also about what 1111 01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:05,959 Speaker 1: it means to be a woman today. And and look, 1112 01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:07,760 Speaker 1: there is the world a lot different than it was 1113 01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:10,160 Speaker 1: in the seventies. Yeah, but the world is also a 1114 01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:12,479 Speaker 1: lot the same. And I think a lot of things 1115 01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:16,680 Speaker 1: that used to be overt are sort of now subtextual. 1116 01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:20,760 Speaker 1: Things get pressed down, and we've we've said as a society, oh, 1117 01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:22,600 Speaker 1: we don't do that anymore, we don't do that anymore. 1118 01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:25,000 Speaker 1: But really we've just pushed them down and made them 1119 01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:27,160 Speaker 1: insidious and made it so we can't see them. But 1120 01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:30,200 Speaker 1: they're still happening. And so it's like when Daisy is 1121 01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:33,080 Speaker 1: talking about, like, you know, what she's wearing and how 1122 01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:35,480 Speaker 1: much skin she's showing in the way that she's being 1123 01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:37,320 Speaker 1: treated as a result of that, It's like, Yeah, it 1124 01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:39,800 Speaker 1: was different in the seventies. Fashion was different in the seventies. 1125 01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:43,400 Speaker 1: Are women still treat still treated like that today? Yeah? 1126 01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:46,360 Speaker 1: And it just takes a different form, you know. I 1127 01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:50,000 Speaker 1: mean the patritarchy in general, it's a hydra. It has 1128 01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:52,600 Speaker 1: many heads, and we think we're cutting off heads, but 1129 01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:56,560 Speaker 1: I but they just take a different form. We're still 1130 01:03:56,560 --> 01:04:00,400 Speaker 1: trying to control the way that people behave, the things 1131 01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:02,560 Speaker 1: that they're allowed to love, the things that they're about 1132 01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:06,160 Speaker 1: to feel about themselves. And we're doing it at every angle, 1133 01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:08,640 Speaker 1: not just two women. We're doing it to man, We're 1134 01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:10,080 Speaker 1: doing it to queer people, were doing it to people 1135 01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:12,080 Speaker 1: of color, and then intersections of those groups. It's happening 1136 01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:15,880 Speaker 1: to everybody, and so that's Daisy Jones. To me, was 1137 01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:19,080 Speaker 1: an opportunity to talk about what it maybe what it 1138 01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:20,720 Speaker 1: meant to be a woman in rock in the seventies. 1139 01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:24,880 Speaker 1: But if that doesn't have after effects, that doesn't feel 1140 01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:28,360 Speaker 1: like it's still vibrates today, then then then why are 1141 01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:30,880 Speaker 1: you reading the book that Then it's just you know, 1142 01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:33,320 Speaker 1: kind of a still it's a fun ride to go on, 1143 01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:36,640 Speaker 1: but but it's not saying anything. And I think, you know, 1144 01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:38,920 Speaker 1: with Evelyn Hugo, the book that came before that, it's 1145 01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:43,080 Speaker 1: the same thing. And now with Malibu Rising, I wanted 1146 01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:46,080 Speaker 1: to go to eighties Malibu. Let's go to the beach, 1147 01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:48,240 Speaker 1: Let's have a beach party, you know, like let's hang 1148 01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:51,160 Speaker 1: out with a bunch of super cool surfers, you know, 1149 01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:55,080 Speaker 1: and like Nina Reeva is a supermodel, and like, I 1150 01:04:55,160 --> 01:04:57,600 Speaker 1: want to talk about objectification. I want to I want 1151 01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:00,960 Speaker 1: to talk about how it must feel to have your 1152 01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:04,120 Speaker 1: body feel to other people like they're allowed to touch it, 1153 01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:06,800 Speaker 1: that they're allowed, that they have some ownership over it. 1154 01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:09,320 Speaker 1: Because yeah, in the eighties it was really overt and 1155 01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:13,680 Speaker 1: really intense. But you know that is still happening all 1156 01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:17,400 Speaker 1: the time right now, all the time, and especially to women, 1157 01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:19,280 Speaker 1: you know, to the point of your character women in 1158 01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:21,840 Speaker 1: the public eye. I mean, I can't tell you the 1159 01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:25,840 Speaker 1: number of times, and I know people don't. I mean, 1160 01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:29,360 Speaker 1: I guess I shouldn't generalize. Sometimes they do, but more 1161 01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:32,840 Speaker 1: often than not, people don't mean to be intrusive or abusive. 1162 01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:36,600 Speaker 1: But the number of times I have met someone who 1163 01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:41,400 Speaker 1: would describe themselves as you know, a quote fan who 1164 01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:47,040 Speaker 1: has touched me without asking. I had someone literally reach out, 1165 01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:49,280 Speaker 1: grabbed my face and run their fingers through my hair 1166 01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:53,120 Speaker 1: the way your spouse is supposed to. And this was 1167 01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:56,560 Speaker 1: a person who had never seen up until three seconds 1168 01:05:56,560 --> 01:06:00,080 Speaker 1: before this happened. I mean, and I and I know 1169 01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:04,200 Speaker 1: that that is proximal to what a character like this one. 1170 01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:07,720 Speaker 1: You know, someone who's defined as a model, who's essentially 1171 01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:11,520 Speaker 1: defined as a live mannequin who we project all of 1172 01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:16,600 Speaker 1: our ideas and fantasies onto. As an actor, people see 1173 01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:19,600 Speaker 1: you move and speak and in relationship. Granted they're made up, 1174 01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:23,400 Speaker 1: but they still know you're a person in some way. 1175 01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:30,439 Speaker 1: And so I'm so fascinated by this idea of how 1176 01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:33,440 Speaker 1: we com modify people and how we then tell them 1177 01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:37,040 Speaker 1: they should like it. Oh yeah, well it's really interesting 1178 01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:41,120 Speaker 1: to me. So you're your themes about women and how 1179 01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:45,080 Speaker 1: in a way there admonished for their success, you know, 1180 01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:47,680 Speaker 1: whether it's Daisy Jones talking about her identity and people 1181 01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:49,720 Speaker 1: essentially saying like you're a rock star, get over it. 1182 01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:53,600 Speaker 1: And there's always some version of that. So there's there's 1183 01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:56,800 Speaker 1: the identity vertical that I love about your work. There 1184 01:06:56,880 --> 01:07:00,880 Speaker 1: is this bucket about time and and you know you 1185 01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:04,320 Speaker 1: mentioned the Seven Husbands of Evil and Hugo. That novel 1186 01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:07,720 Speaker 1: goes back and forth between decades and past and current 1187 01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:10,960 Speaker 1: time and then and then in this new book, Malibi Rising, 1188 01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:12,560 Speaker 1: which we're beginning to talk about, which, by the way, 1189 01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:15,040 Speaker 1: came out today, so if you all have not pre 1190 01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:18,680 Speaker 1: ordered it, you absolutely should be ordering it today because 1191 01:07:18,720 --> 01:07:20,720 Speaker 1: I was very lucky my friend Taylor sent me an 1192 01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:25,120 Speaker 1: advanced copy which I got to devour um. But this 1193 01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:30,040 Speaker 1: book literally goes hour by hour, and there's something about 1194 01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:33,800 Speaker 1: that structure of time that makes me feel so stressed 1195 01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:37,200 Speaker 1: but excited. Glenn and Doyle uses that term skuided where 1196 01:07:37,240 --> 01:07:39,120 Speaker 1: she's like, I'm scared and excited all at once. And 1197 01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:44,080 Speaker 1: that's how I felt, uh going through this, and I 1198 01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:48,840 Speaker 1: I'm really really curious about some things. Again, Um, not 1199 01:07:48,880 --> 01:07:51,280 Speaker 1: to sound like I have just been keeping lists, but 1200 01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:54,800 Speaker 1: I sort of have. On your work, there are these 1201 01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:59,960 Speaker 1: mentions that feel like easter eggs for fans of your 1202 01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:04,160 Speaker 1: previous books, references back to Evelyn Hugo. You know, you 1203 01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:09,120 Speaker 1: mentioned Celia St. James and and Mick Reeva, and there 1204 01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:11,200 Speaker 1: are all these rumors that your books are based on 1205 01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:13,680 Speaker 1: real people. And I know we're not going to talk 1206 01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:15,600 Speaker 1: about that with previous books. What do we get to 1207 01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:17,439 Speaker 1: talk about it with this book at all? You know, 1208 01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:21,519 Speaker 1: you know, it's funny. This book is sort of like, 1209 01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:27,440 Speaker 1: because I'm a few into this pattern, now I understood 1210 01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:32,360 Speaker 1: where the interest would be and so it's actually about 1211 01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:35,120 Speaker 1: no one in particular, but was way more fun to 1212 01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:39,000 Speaker 1: play with in terms of where it exists. So, so, 1213 01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:42,240 Speaker 1: for instance, like the book is about the Reeva family. 1214 01:08:42,280 --> 01:08:45,439 Speaker 1: It's four siblings, they're all surfers, are living in Malibu, 1215 01:08:46,400 --> 01:08:49,760 Speaker 1: they're abandoned by their famous father, Mick Reeva. And Mick 1216 01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:53,920 Speaker 1: Reva is Evelyn Hugo's third husband. So Mick Reeva exists 1217 01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:57,240 Speaker 1: in Evelyn Hugo. He's mentioned in a scene in Daisy Jones. 1218 01:08:57,280 --> 01:09:00,519 Speaker 1: And now we're getting the story of his family and 1219 01:09:01,360 --> 01:09:05,280 Speaker 1: the Reva kids were now all adults. They're throwing their 1220 01:09:05,320 --> 01:09:08,400 Speaker 1: annual Reva party. It's like the Hollywood Party to end 1221 01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:11,160 Speaker 1: all parties, the party everybody you know wants to be 1222 01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:15,000 Speaker 1: seen at. And there's a lot of celebrities that are 1223 01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:16,920 Speaker 1: gonna come. And so so I was like, well, the 1224 01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:19,640 Speaker 1: first thing is that I've created a world of all 1225 01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:22,400 Speaker 1: these fake celebrities. And I'm not gonna do double work. 1226 01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:25,040 Speaker 1: If I already have all these other fake celebrities that 1227 01:09:25,080 --> 01:09:26,960 Speaker 1: I can put at this party, let me use some 1228 01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:29,320 Speaker 1: of them. It's kind of you know, and so and 1229 01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:31,800 Speaker 1: so you'll see, you know, people that that have read 1230 01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:34,960 Speaker 1: Evelyn Hugo and Daisy Jones with a with a keen, 1231 01:09:35,120 --> 01:09:38,000 Speaker 1: I will pick up on certain characters that are mentioned 1232 01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:39,960 Speaker 1: that are you know, I wouldn't. Some of them aren't 1233 01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:43,000 Speaker 1: even like tertiary characters. And Evelyn Hugo, it's like we're 1234 01:09:43,040 --> 01:09:45,160 Speaker 1: talking like really far down the list, but you can 1235 01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:49,000 Speaker 1: piece it together the connections that are here. But the 1236 01:09:49,080 --> 01:09:51,080 Speaker 1: other thing that I did with this book that I've 1237 01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:55,400 Speaker 1: never done before, or I approached it differently, even if 1238 01:09:55,439 --> 01:09:58,280 Speaker 1: the result is the same, is that you know, like 1239 01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:01,040 Speaker 1: you're saying the story goes our or by hour. So 1240 01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:04,800 Speaker 1: we started seven am, and we see the day leading 1241 01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:08,000 Speaker 1: up to the Reva party, and then the Reva party starts, 1242 01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:10,320 Speaker 1: and we see the twelve hours after, and then you know, 1243 01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:13,040 Speaker 1: we come the story ends at the next day at 1244 01:10:13,080 --> 01:10:16,479 Speaker 1: the same time, and once you get to the party. 1245 01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:21,040 Speaker 1: I started to write these little character profiles where it's like, well, 1246 01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:23,600 Speaker 1: who's showing up at this party? Who are the Hollywood 1247 01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:27,760 Speaker 1: people that are gonna come, And so you have characters 1248 01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:31,080 Speaker 1: that I made up that are if you go through it. 1249 01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:33,120 Speaker 1: I think it is a fun little game of being 1250 01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:36,240 Speaker 1: able to see if like, okay, you know, think this 1251 01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:40,479 Speaker 1: is one character, Tuesday Hendrix, and and she's a young 1252 01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:43,800 Speaker 1: sort of ingenue. She's already won an oscar, she's had 1253 01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:48,240 Speaker 1: a runaway bride situation, she's got a drug problem. And 1254 01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:51,040 Speaker 1: so it's like you can you can go through the 1255 01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:54,920 Speaker 1: list of like early eighties actresses that were like just 1256 01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:58,439 Speaker 1: becoming famous at that time, and I think piece together, 1257 01:10:58,600 --> 01:11:00,679 Speaker 1: like oh, this might be a little bit of this 1258 01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:02,200 Speaker 1: one and a little bit of that one and a 1259 01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:05,080 Speaker 1: little bit of that one. More like there's there's some 1260 01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:08,760 Speaker 1: other people, like there's a screenwriter and you can start 1261 01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:12,400 Speaker 1: to piece that together or um, these two actors that 1262 01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:18,040 Speaker 1: show up, and I think they all have different fields, 1263 01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:21,960 Speaker 1: but I think it can be a fun game to 1264 01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:24,880 Speaker 1: pull back and and be like, oh, who could this be? 1265 01:11:25,479 --> 01:11:29,800 Speaker 1: And not there's not a single one that is one 1266 01:11:29,840 --> 01:11:33,080 Speaker 1: particular person. They're all kind of an amalgamation the same 1267 01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:35,280 Speaker 1: way like Daisy Jones is like is a Fleetwood Mac? 1268 01:11:35,400 --> 01:11:39,040 Speaker 1: Yes and no. It's also like like Heart and Abba 1269 01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:42,640 Speaker 1: and the Eagles and whatever. You can get into some 1270 01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:45,960 Speaker 1: fun like Bratt Packers with this one. I love that. 1271 01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:49,479 Speaker 1: I really love that. Something I'm really curious about as well. 1272 01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:53,080 Speaker 1: Speaking of Easter eggs um, because we went down a 1273 01:11:53,080 --> 01:11:56,560 Speaker 1: deep hole over here when we got our advanced copy. 1274 01:11:57,320 --> 01:12:00,200 Speaker 1: The address of the house is a real address, so 1275 01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:03,879 Speaker 1: and we Google earthed it and it's between two homes 1276 01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:08,920 Speaker 1: and it's just this land and we can't find any 1277 01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:12,680 Speaker 1: information about it. So how did you land on it? 1278 01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:15,920 Speaker 1: And is there a story behind it that you know 1279 01:12:16,120 --> 01:12:19,400 Speaker 1: that now? I wanted that there's there is a story 1280 01:12:19,439 --> 01:12:21,800 Speaker 1: behind it all. It's not that interesting. What it is 1281 01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:24,040 Speaker 1: is that I went to Point Doom and I drove 1282 01:12:24,080 --> 01:12:27,120 Speaker 1: around Point Doom and I figured out, okay, this is 1283 01:12:27,120 --> 01:12:29,000 Speaker 1: where Nina's house would be if I wanted to be 1284 01:12:29,040 --> 01:12:30,599 Speaker 1: on the edge of the cliff. I wanted to have, 1285 01:12:31,160 --> 01:12:34,439 Speaker 1: you know, some access to these surf spots, you know. 1286 01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:36,599 Speaker 1: So it's like, she's gonna live on cliff Side Drive 1287 01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:39,439 Speaker 1: that I know. And then it's it's like, okay, so 1288 01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:42,240 Speaker 1: now that I know what street she lives on, where 1289 01:12:42,280 --> 01:12:44,559 Speaker 1: on the street would she live? What do the address 1290 01:12:44,640 --> 01:12:46,120 Speaker 1: is there look like? So it's like, oh, they're all 1291 01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:48,960 Speaker 1: in the like twenty two thousands, like their long addresses. 1292 01:12:49,320 --> 01:12:52,000 Speaker 1: So I think I pulled one there was a real 1293 01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:55,639 Speaker 1: home and just put it in there. And then during 1294 01:12:55,680 --> 01:12:59,639 Speaker 1: the copy edits, the editor was like, you cannot take 1295 01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:02,200 Speaker 1: some home addressed, and it was like, that makes sense, 1296 01:13:02,360 --> 01:13:07,440 Speaker 1: that makes sense. I can't do that, And so I 1297 01:13:07,479 --> 01:13:10,120 Speaker 1: came up with an address it's not technically anybody's house, 1298 01:13:10,840 --> 01:13:14,360 Speaker 1: and and so what what the result is? It is 1299 01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:18,000 Speaker 1: a fictional place, but it is on a real street 1300 01:13:18,240 --> 01:13:21,640 Speaker 1: and could happen. And look, all of the houses on 1301 01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:25,840 Speaker 1: the cliff Side Drive have gates and you can't see 1302 01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:28,439 Speaker 1: the cliff from the street, so it's not going to 1303 01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:31,439 Speaker 1: be a super fun drive if someone's curious. It was 1304 01:13:31,479 --> 01:13:33,519 Speaker 1: fun for me is like the person writing it to 1305 01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:36,719 Speaker 1: figure it out. But yeah, it's like it's like having 1306 01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:39,760 Speaker 1: a you know, when somebody's phone numbers is like three 1307 01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:42,760 Speaker 1: one oh five, five five, you know, one to one two, 1308 01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:45,439 Speaker 1: it's like it's it's not real, but it looks real. 1309 01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:48,080 Speaker 1: That's very kind of you. I I think, you know, 1310 01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:51,479 Speaker 1: there's some families still in Wilmington's who like come out 1311 01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:54,000 Speaker 1: of their houses in the morning and there's fans of 1312 01:13:54,040 --> 01:13:57,120 Speaker 1: my first show is taking photos and they're just like, 1313 01:13:57,120 --> 01:14:00,040 Speaker 1: why did we ever rent our houses to the A 1314 01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:02,200 Speaker 1: TV show? You know, they're so mad about it. I 1315 01:14:02,200 --> 01:14:04,280 Speaker 1: feel like we just all feel so guilty. We're like 1316 01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:06,559 Speaker 1: we didn't know either. We're so sorry we should have 1317 01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:09,800 Speaker 1: just built um. So it's nice of you to not 1318 01:14:10,040 --> 01:14:14,200 Speaker 1: send people to startle, you know, young families on their 1319 01:14:14,240 --> 01:14:17,200 Speaker 1: front line. I do feel like people in Wilbington probably 1320 01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:19,800 Speaker 1: are inundated with that on such a regular basis still 1321 01:14:19,840 --> 01:14:23,519 Speaker 1: today that it might be like a drop in the bucket. Yeah. Yeah, 1322 01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:26,040 Speaker 1: I mean it's like, on the one hand, I so 1323 01:14:26,280 --> 01:14:30,120 Speaker 1: cherish that people love our show and the world we 1324 01:14:30,200 --> 01:14:33,040 Speaker 1: built like that. It means so much. And on the 1325 01:14:33,040 --> 01:14:35,840 Speaker 1: other hand, just I'm so sorry to the people who 1326 01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:38,479 Speaker 1: actually live in those houses. I'm like, we had no idea, 1327 01:14:38,560 --> 01:14:43,080 Speaker 1: we didn't know. We can't make it stop. We're we apologize. Um. 1328 01:14:43,120 --> 01:14:44,960 Speaker 1: And it's funny because I think that's part of it too, 1329 01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:49,360 Speaker 1: you know, being an actor. When I watch uh TV 1330 01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:52,160 Speaker 1: or films, my other friends who are actors make fun 1331 01:14:52,160 --> 01:14:54,439 Speaker 1: of me. My my girlfriend s, guy p Marshall, who's 1332 01:14:54,479 --> 01:14:58,400 Speaker 1: phenomenal who I just did this pilot with, UM. Well, 1333 01:14:58,400 --> 01:15:00,400 Speaker 1: when we watch TV together, she's like, my god, you 1334 01:15:00,439 --> 01:15:03,760 Speaker 1: really feel everything, you really think it's real. And I'm like, 1335 01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:06,479 Speaker 1: I know, I don't know why I'm supposed to know better, 1336 01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:09,240 Speaker 1: and I'm jumpy and I'm like screaming if it's a 1337 01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:12,599 Speaker 1: scary thing, I really get lost in it. But the 1338 01:15:12,640 --> 01:15:15,240 Speaker 1: thing that I always noticed that most people don't is 1339 01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:19,679 Speaker 1: when there's like really bad background work happening, Like when 1340 01:15:19,760 --> 01:15:21,840 Speaker 1: someone and I it's it's and I don't mean to 1341 01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:23,920 Speaker 1: be critical. It's like probably someone's first day and they've 1342 01:15:23,920 --> 01:15:27,320 Speaker 1: been told like react and laugh, but don't make any sound. 1343 01:15:27,560 --> 01:15:29,479 Speaker 1: So I'll see someone in the back of a show 1344 01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:34,320 Speaker 1: just doing something ridiculous and that that nobody caught and said, 1345 01:15:34,360 --> 01:15:36,040 Speaker 1: like tone it down a little, you gotta make it 1346 01:15:36,080 --> 01:15:39,320 Speaker 1: more natural. And I'm always like, that's hilarious to me, 1347 01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:42,400 Speaker 1: Like that's a funny strigg for me as a you know, 1348 01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:46,719 Speaker 1: an actor and a director. I wonder, do you pick 1349 01:15:46,800 --> 01:15:49,519 Speaker 1: upart books when you read them because you know how 1350 01:15:49,520 --> 01:15:52,080 Speaker 1: to write them, because you you know what it means 1351 01:15:52,120 --> 01:15:54,640 Speaker 1: to layer in structure in detail? Do you do you 1352 01:15:54,720 --> 01:15:57,599 Speaker 1: see twists coming ahead of time? Or can you get 1353 01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:00,280 Speaker 1: lost in it? I can get I can definitely get 1354 01:16:00,280 --> 01:16:03,120 Speaker 1: lost in it, and definitely things that are other genres, 1355 01:16:03,160 --> 01:16:06,400 Speaker 1: like I love to read thrillers and stuff like that 1356 01:16:06,439 --> 01:16:08,280 Speaker 1: because it's so it's just not what I do, and 1357 01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:11,040 Speaker 1: so it feels much more like a vacation. I will 1358 01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:15,280 Speaker 1: say something that has started to happen that is a bummer, 1359 01:16:15,320 --> 01:16:16,720 Speaker 1: and I wish I could turn off of my brain 1360 01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:20,240 Speaker 1: is on a sentence level, I'll read things and and 1361 01:16:20,280 --> 01:16:23,679 Speaker 1: I will be like, why would you execute that like that? 1362 01:16:24,320 --> 01:16:26,519 Speaker 1: And then and then and then once I'm asking the question, 1363 01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:28,599 Speaker 1: I'm like, either this is a bad sentence or you've 1364 01:16:28,600 --> 01:16:31,559 Speaker 1: written it this way for a reason. And if it's 1365 01:16:31,560 --> 01:16:33,880 Speaker 1: for a reason, then in a couple of pages, this 1366 01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:36,920 Speaker 1: is about to happen. And and so it's it's kind 1367 01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:40,719 Speaker 1: of like it's it's more it's on a smaller level 1368 01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:43,160 Speaker 1: than like, oh well, I bet it's actually you know, 1369 01:16:43,200 --> 01:16:44,479 Speaker 1: I think it's going to be the husband, but it 1370 01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:46,360 Speaker 1: turns out it's the grandma. You know. It's like, I'm 1371 01:16:46,400 --> 01:16:51,080 Speaker 1: not engaging that way, but on a sentence level, I 1372 01:16:51,200 --> 01:16:57,280 Speaker 1: do feel voice and and decisions of you know, where 1373 01:16:57,320 --> 01:16:59,600 Speaker 1: you're drawing my eye and why you're describing something the 1374 01:16:59,640 --> 01:17:01,200 Speaker 1: way that you are. I mean, those are things that 1375 01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:05,800 Speaker 1: you you do start to sense. But that's really interesting. 1376 01:17:06,040 --> 01:17:08,240 Speaker 1: The converse is also true, which is like maybe I'm 1377 01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:09,960 Speaker 1: reading a book and I start to see something like 1378 01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:11,840 Speaker 1: that and I'm like, well why, and then it and 1379 01:17:11,880 --> 01:17:14,840 Speaker 1: then it sort of undermines it. But because I know 1380 01:17:14,880 --> 01:17:16,920 Speaker 1: how hard it is to do certain things, because I 1381 01:17:16,960 --> 01:17:20,920 Speaker 1: know how hard it is to execute certain relationships or 1382 01:17:21,760 --> 01:17:26,360 Speaker 1: intensity or whatever, when I come across a writer who 1383 01:17:26,520 --> 01:17:35,000 Speaker 1: is just phenomenal, the admiration I have becomes so much 1384 01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:39,559 Speaker 1: more intense and heartfelt. I you know, it's like you 1385 01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:44,360 Speaker 1: read somebody like Sally Rooney, and I know how hard 1386 01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:47,920 Speaker 1: it is to do what she does and to make 1387 01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:53,720 Speaker 1: it look so sparse and held back. I know as 1388 01:17:53,800 --> 01:17:56,880 Speaker 1: someone who is not a writer who is restrained. I 1389 01:17:56,920 --> 01:17:59,639 Speaker 1: don't think. I don't think like it's it's just not 1390 01:18:00,040 --> 01:18:02,920 Speaker 1: my style. It's like my style is like throw it 1391 01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:05,760 Speaker 1: all in there and tell you everything you know, and 1392 01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:09,160 Speaker 1: it's like, okay, So I'm really curious about this because 1393 01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:13,360 Speaker 1: that that leads me to my next question, because I 1394 01:18:13,439 --> 01:18:16,479 Speaker 1: don't see what you see when I read a book, 1395 01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:19,599 Speaker 1: but I think so much about as a storyteller, how 1396 01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:21,320 Speaker 1: did they come up with us? How did this person 1397 01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:23,360 Speaker 1: write this? And where did this idea come from? And 1398 01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:25,559 Speaker 1: when you say you like to throw it all out there, 1399 01:18:25,640 --> 01:18:28,799 Speaker 1: I'm like, okay. So every one of your book has 1400 01:18:28,840 --> 01:18:32,240 Speaker 1: a major twist in it or twists to them. What 1401 01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:36,479 Speaker 1: is the writing process for that? Do you do you 1402 01:18:36,560 --> 01:18:40,040 Speaker 1: start with an ending or like a gotcha moment or 1403 01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:42,760 Speaker 1: a big twist, and then do you work backwards to 1404 01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:46,600 Speaker 1: kind of reverse engineer or do things reveal themselves to 1405 01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:50,160 Speaker 1: you as you're writing or is it a mixture of both. 1406 01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:53,080 Speaker 1: It's what it is is that I know the story 1407 01:18:53,120 --> 01:18:54,919 Speaker 1: that I want to tell, like I know the premise, 1408 01:18:55,000 --> 01:18:57,760 Speaker 1: I know where I want to put my characters, and 1409 01:18:58,200 --> 01:19:01,280 Speaker 1: I know how it ends. I have to know how 1410 01:19:01,320 --> 01:19:03,480 Speaker 1: it ends. If I don't know how it ends personally, 1411 01:19:03,800 --> 01:19:06,800 Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm writing toward. I don't know 1412 01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:10,679 Speaker 1: what what's the payoff of all of this. And so 1413 01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:16,559 Speaker 1: with specifically with Evelyn Hugo, I was like, you know, 1414 01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:19,280 Speaker 1: I'm going to write a story and she's chosen, you know, 1415 01:19:19,360 --> 01:19:22,200 Speaker 1: she chooses Evelyn Hugo, chooses this rookie reporter and gives 1416 01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:25,360 Speaker 1: her her life story and why because she's got a 1417 01:19:25,439 --> 01:19:28,200 Speaker 1: secret reason for doing it, And there was no way 1418 01:19:28,200 --> 01:19:30,760 Speaker 1: I could write that without knowing what the secret reason was. 1419 01:19:30,840 --> 01:19:33,400 Speaker 1: Like I was like, I can't leave that for later 1420 01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:37,520 Speaker 1: to try to figure out. I have to do that now. So, um, 1421 01:19:37,560 --> 01:19:39,920 Speaker 1: you know, with Daisy Jones it was the same thing, 1422 01:19:40,040 --> 01:19:42,120 Speaker 1: and with Malibu, I don't know that there's a twist, 1423 01:19:42,120 --> 01:19:45,960 Speaker 1: but there is a very surprising thing that happens, and 1424 01:19:46,400 --> 01:19:49,240 Speaker 1: for me, that was built into the premise of it. 1425 01:19:49,360 --> 01:19:54,439 Speaker 1: And I think, you know what what the difference is 1426 01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:57,320 Speaker 1: between my style and somebody like Sally Rudey, and why 1427 01:19:57,360 --> 01:20:01,240 Speaker 1: I admire her so much is because for me, I 1428 01:20:01,400 --> 01:20:03,439 Speaker 1: know how it starts and I know how it ends, 1429 01:20:03,479 --> 01:20:06,439 Speaker 1: and I'm you know, going on that journey sort of 1430 01:20:06,560 --> 01:20:10,679 Speaker 1: the first time around. But I have this in terms 1431 01:20:10,680 --> 01:20:13,920 Speaker 1: of my narrative voice. Something that I'm always feeling which 1432 01:20:13,960 --> 01:20:19,120 Speaker 1: thriller writers often um have to get out of themselves 1433 01:20:19,120 --> 01:20:23,320 Speaker 1: if they have it, is I feel like with my 1434 01:20:23,400 --> 01:20:24,960 Speaker 1: relationship with the reader, I need to give you as 1435 01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:29,840 Speaker 1: much information as I have. So I was like withholding 1436 01:20:29,920 --> 01:20:34,720 Speaker 1: information from the reader is not something that I it 1437 01:20:34,800 --> 01:20:38,479 Speaker 1: comes naturally to me. And and controlling when you get 1438 01:20:38,520 --> 01:20:42,960 Speaker 1: a piece of information or dangling or teasing that there's 1439 01:20:43,000 --> 01:20:46,120 Speaker 1: something you don't know is like no, no, no, I wanna. 1440 01:20:46,240 --> 01:20:48,240 Speaker 1: I want to tell you everything. I've got it all 1441 01:20:48,240 --> 01:20:50,680 Speaker 1: planned out here. We go a lot, a lot of 1442 01:20:50,680 --> 01:20:53,639 Speaker 1: the work I have to do in later edits is like, 1443 01:20:54,479 --> 01:20:57,120 Speaker 1: you know all in chapter two, be like this wouldn't 1444 01:20:57,200 --> 01:20:59,160 Speaker 1: end well, but blah blah blah, and then it's like 1445 01:20:59,240 --> 01:21:02,479 Speaker 1: take that out so I don't let the reader go 1446 01:21:02,520 --> 01:21:05,040 Speaker 1: on the journey. But I feel very much like I 1447 01:21:05,120 --> 01:21:07,160 Speaker 1: know what it is, so you need to know. And 1448 01:21:07,760 --> 01:21:13,280 Speaker 1: and so that's why uh, Sally Rooney is in full 1449 01:21:13,320 --> 01:21:17,320 Speaker 1: control on a sentence level of everything that you know 1450 01:21:17,600 --> 01:21:22,120 Speaker 1: she has. She manages a sparseness, a restrainedness, like uh, 1451 01:21:22,200 --> 01:21:27,280 Speaker 1: a detached nous that ends up only heightening the intimacy 1452 01:21:27,320 --> 01:21:30,840 Speaker 1: of the work. It's so impressive to me. And I 1453 01:21:30,880 --> 01:21:34,360 Speaker 1: feel this way about celesting two for for different reasons, 1454 01:21:34,479 --> 01:21:36,320 Speaker 1: or and patch it where it's like I just I 1455 01:21:36,360 --> 01:21:39,880 Speaker 1: read their work and it's like I can learn so 1456 01:21:39,960 --> 01:21:42,720 Speaker 1: much from this because it's so different than how I 1457 01:21:42,760 --> 01:21:46,759 Speaker 1: would tell this story, and I admire it so much. 1458 01:21:48,200 --> 01:21:50,960 Speaker 1: I love that. I would love to know, actually, of 1459 01:21:51,040 --> 01:21:53,120 Speaker 1: the of you know, the three women you just mentioned, 1460 01:21:53,120 --> 01:21:55,679 Speaker 1: I'd love to know what your favorite piece of their 1461 01:21:55,720 --> 01:21:59,000 Speaker 1: writing is so we can include. Yeah, well the notes 1462 01:21:59,080 --> 01:22:02,120 Speaker 1: for the show. Well, I um, I mean Sally Rooney, 1463 01:22:02,200 --> 01:22:05,200 Speaker 1: I really loved Normal People. I I it's funny because 1464 01:22:05,200 --> 01:22:07,000 Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, she said tow out her 1465 01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:08,759 Speaker 1: thirds coming out this year, I think in the Fault, 1466 01:22:08,760 --> 01:22:12,520 Speaker 1: which I'm really excited about, but Normal People just swept 1467 01:22:13,479 --> 01:22:16,320 Speaker 1: me up. And I was fortunate enough that the timing 1468 01:22:16,320 --> 01:22:18,280 Speaker 1: of when I read it was like I think then 1469 01:22:18,280 --> 01:22:20,040 Speaker 1: it was like a month or two later that the 1470 01:22:20,040 --> 01:22:22,200 Speaker 1: show came out, and the show was like just as 1471 01:22:22,240 --> 01:22:24,320 Speaker 1: good as the book, and it was like, oh, I 1472 01:22:24,400 --> 01:22:27,360 Speaker 1: just it was just delicious. The whole thing's just delicious. 1473 01:22:27,760 --> 01:22:29,760 Speaker 1: You just got to be in the world. Yeah, and 1474 01:22:29,840 --> 01:22:32,360 Speaker 1: being lost in a world is like we were talking 1475 01:22:32,400 --> 01:22:34,959 Speaker 1: about at the top. It's like, it's how I refilled myself. 1476 01:22:35,040 --> 01:22:37,639 Speaker 1: It's such a gift to be able to lose myself 1477 01:22:37,640 --> 01:22:41,840 Speaker 1: in that celesting. I mean again to great books out. 1478 01:22:41,880 --> 01:22:44,519 Speaker 1: I loved her first one, which you know, Little Fires 1479 01:22:44,520 --> 01:22:46,760 Speaker 1: Everywhere obviously blew up and it was so big. Her 1480 01:22:46,800 --> 01:22:48,720 Speaker 1: first one was also really good. It's called Everything. I 1481 01:22:48,760 --> 01:22:51,760 Speaker 1: never told you a lot of people read that one too. 1482 01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:54,280 Speaker 1: But but if there are people that like Little Fires 1483 01:22:54,360 --> 01:22:57,320 Speaker 1: going back and reading that one, it's so good. And Patchett, 1484 01:22:57,360 --> 01:23:01,400 Speaker 1: I'll read anything that she writes. And and I mean 1485 01:23:01,479 --> 01:23:03,559 Speaker 1: just you know, the first book of hers I read 1486 01:23:03,640 --> 01:23:08,040 Speaker 1: was Patron Patron Saint of Liars, and I just loved it. 1487 01:23:08,560 --> 01:23:11,880 Speaker 1: But I will say her latest one, in the Dutch House, 1488 01:23:13,240 --> 01:23:15,360 Speaker 1: I couldn't put it down. I couldn't put it down. 1489 01:23:15,400 --> 01:23:18,880 Speaker 1: It has more like fairy tale vibes. It's very it's 1490 01:23:18,920 --> 01:23:22,599 Speaker 1: sort of like heightened and but I just I just 1491 01:23:22,680 --> 01:23:25,200 Speaker 1: loved it. And I think she's so I mean talk 1492 01:23:25,240 --> 01:23:29,680 Speaker 1: about like on a sentence level, what she's able to do, 1493 01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:36,080 Speaker 1: uh and convey is just she's just a mega, mega talent. Yeah, 1494 01:23:36,080 --> 01:23:39,559 Speaker 1: she's incredible. So when you think about the writers you 1495 01:23:39,600 --> 01:23:43,280 Speaker 1: love to read, and then you you think about all 1496 01:23:43,320 --> 01:23:46,479 Speaker 1: the people who love reading your writing. Is there something 1497 01:23:46,479 --> 01:23:53,200 Speaker 1: that you hope your reader's, your audience takes from your work. Yeah. 1498 01:23:53,240 --> 01:23:56,960 Speaker 1: I mean I'm always trying to operate on on two levels, 1499 01:23:57,080 --> 01:23:59,080 Speaker 1: and the one that is the most important to me 1500 01:23:59,160 --> 01:24:01,400 Speaker 1: at this given more one is I think the world 1501 01:24:01,520 --> 01:24:04,080 Speaker 1: is just a really tough place. I think that the 1502 01:24:04,160 --> 01:24:07,519 Speaker 1: stresses of the world are immense. I feel like the 1503 01:24:07,560 --> 01:24:12,479 Speaker 1: past year, I don't know, I can't speak for everyone, 1504 01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:15,160 Speaker 1: but I do feel like I've grown like a crust 1505 01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:20,679 Speaker 1: of of just like like tiredness, and I would love 1506 01:24:20,920 --> 01:24:27,160 Speaker 1: for my work to um to give someone enough joy 1507 01:24:27,439 --> 01:24:30,080 Speaker 1: that it might be part of the breaking of that crust. 1508 01:24:30,360 --> 01:24:31,720 Speaker 1: I just want to I just want people to have 1509 01:24:31,760 --> 01:24:33,040 Speaker 1: a good time. I want them to be able to 1510 01:24:33,080 --> 01:24:35,400 Speaker 1: lose themselves in something to you know, if if if 1511 01:24:35,479 --> 01:24:38,479 Speaker 1: you're stuck somewhere and you can't get to the beach 1512 01:24:38,520 --> 01:24:41,280 Speaker 1: and you can't travel, it's like, open up this book 1513 01:24:41,320 --> 01:24:43,360 Speaker 1: and like, I hope that it feels like you're in 1514 01:24:43,360 --> 01:24:46,240 Speaker 1: the water. I hope it feels that you're in Malibu, 1515 01:24:46,360 --> 01:24:48,200 Speaker 1: which is my favorite place to be. Like, I just 1516 01:24:48,240 --> 01:24:50,479 Speaker 1: want to take you there, and that's a level of 1517 01:24:50,520 --> 01:24:52,760 Speaker 1: always functioning at. But I think just because of the 1518 01:24:52,760 --> 01:24:54,760 Speaker 1: way the world is, that's the most important to me 1519 01:24:54,840 --> 01:24:57,519 Speaker 1: right now. And and you know, the other thing is 1520 01:24:57,520 --> 01:24:59,759 Speaker 1: is this is a book about a lot of specific stuff, 1521 01:24:59,800 --> 01:25:01,360 Speaker 1: and it has a lot of things to say and 1522 01:25:01,400 --> 01:25:03,080 Speaker 1: things that I've wanted to say for a long time. 1523 01:25:03,120 --> 01:25:07,400 Speaker 1: And I hope that there are certain readers. I don't 1524 01:25:07,439 --> 01:25:10,040 Speaker 1: want to give anything away or too much of the 1525 01:25:10,040 --> 01:25:11,680 Speaker 1: themes of what it's about, but it's but it is 1526 01:25:11,760 --> 01:25:15,360 Speaker 1: very much about parents and children and what our parents, 1527 01:25:16,479 --> 01:25:18,719 Speaker 1: what parents owe to their children, both from the level 1528 01:25:18,800 --> 01:25:22,840 Speaker 1: of you know, for me, what did my parents give 1529 01:25:22,880 --> 01:25:24,120 Speaker 1: to me and what do I want to give to 1530 01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:27,439 Speaker 1: my child? And there's a passage towards the end of 1531 01:25:27,439 --> 01:25:32,000 Speaker 1: the book that that sort of directly talks about that 1532 01:25:32,120 --> 01:25:34,920 Speaker 1: question of what we bring forward and what we leave 1533 01:25:34,960 --> 01:25:38,280 Speaker 1: behind from the generations that have come before us. And 1534 01:25:39,160 --> 01:25:43,040 Speaker 1: I think I was writing this book with very specific 1535 01:25:43,040 --> 01:25:46,840 Speaker 1: people in mind, and those people are people who are 1536 01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:50,599 Speaker 1: asking themselves that question and it being okay to leave 1537 01:25:50,680 --> 01:25:54,280 Speaker 1: a lot of what has come before you behind in 1538 01:25:54,360 --> 01:25:57,400 Speaker 1: order to form something new. And so I hope that 1539 01:25:57,439 --> 01:25:59,360 Speaker 1: people engage with an on that level too. I hope 1540 01:25:59,360 --> 01:26:01,280 Speaker 1: that it finds a way to the people that I 1541 01:26:01,280 --> 01:26:05,080 Speaker 1: wrote it for. Um. But I just want people to 1542 01:26:05,120 --> 01:26:10,280 Speaker 1: have fun mm hm. We deserve that we do we do, 1543 01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:15,880 Speaker 1: especially after such an unfun period of time. Yeah, people, 1544 01:26:16,120 --> 01:26:19,960 Speaker 1: people need some joy. Well, my friend, I'm gonna ask 1545 01:26:20,000 --> 01:26:22,080 Speaker 1: you my favorite question to ask everyone who comes on 1546 01:26:22,080 --> 01:26:24,920 Speaker 1: the show, what do you feel like? And it could 1547 01:26:24,960 --> 01:26:30,400 Speaker 1: be you know, personal, professional, anything. What do you feel 1548 01:26:30,439 --> 01:26:32,440 Speaker 1: like in your life is still a work in progress. 1549 01:26:33,040 --> 01:26:38,040 Speaker 1: Balance and I knew that, but Covid really showed it 1550 01:26:38,080 --> 01:26:41,799 Speaker 1: to me. And so because of that, I think after 1551 01:26:42,080 --> 01:26:45,480 Speaker 1: I finished the book that I'm currently working on, I'm 1552 01:26:45,479 --> 01:26:48,960 Speaker 1: going to take some time off. And I think I 1553 01:26:49,000 --> 01:26:51,200 Speaker 1: think that's and I've told a few of my friends 1554 01:26:51,240 --> 01:26:52,880 Speaker 1: that and they've all laughed at me and they've been like, 1555 01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:54,800 Speaker 1: I've heard that before and then you never do it. 1556 01:26:54,880 --> 01:26:58,400 Speaker 1: But I think that just shows me even more that 1557 01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:01,240 Speaker 1: it is something that I have been rying to work 1558 01:27:01,280 --> 01:27:05,599 Speaker 1: on for years and not done. And so my grandmother 1559 01:27:05,640 --> 01:27:09,600 Speaker 1: always used to say whenever I would call her, and 1560 01:27:09,640 --> 01:27:12,439 Speaker 1: I would say what I was called her, Grammy, but 1561 01:27:12,439 --> 01:27:14,240 Speaker 1: but I would be like, Grammy, I just did this thing. 1562 01:27:14,320 --> 01:27:18,040 Speaker 1: I got you know, published here, or I got this 1563 01:27:18,080 --> 01:27:20,479 Speaker 1: new job or some something that I wanted her to 1564 01:27:20,479 --> 01:27:22,280 Speaker 1: be proud of, and she would say, you know, very 1565 01:27:22,400 --> 01:27:23,920 Speaker 1: very proud of you. I'm always proud of you. But 1566 01:27:24,240 --> 01:27:26,600 Speaker 1: are you stopping to smell the roses? That was the 1567 01:27:26,600 --> 01:27:29,559 Speaker 1: thing that she would always say to me, And the 1568 01:27:29,600 --> 01:27:34,080 Speaker 1: answer was always no, you know, And so I'm going 1569 01:27:34,160 --> 01:27:37,439 Speaker 1: to change that. That's the thing that I think, that's 1570 01:27:37,439 --> 01:27:39,160 Speaker 1: the work in progress for me. And that's when I'm 1571 01:27:39,280 --> 01:27:43,040 Speaker 1: very very serious about changing. Mm hmm. I like that. 1572 01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:46,720 Speaker 1: It feels like very good advice. Thank you. Yeah, well, 1573 01:27:46,760 --> 01:27:48,720 Speaker 1: we can all stop to smell the roses more. So 1574 01:27:49,200 --> 01:27:52,080 Speaker 1: I'm gonna that's what I'm gonna try to do. Man. 1575 01:27:52,680 --> 01:27:53,120 Speaker 1: Awesome