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Speaker 1: You're listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast DAM

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Speaker 1: Paranormal podcast network, where we offer you podcasts of the paranormal, supernatural,

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Speaker 1: and the unexplained. Get ready now for Beyond Contact with

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Speaker 1: Captain Wrong.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and

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Speaker 2: opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions

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Speaker 2: only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast

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Speaker 2: to Coast AM, employees of premier networks, or their sponsors

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Speaker 2: and associates. We would like to encourage you to do

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Speaker 2: your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself.

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Speaker 3: Hey everyone, it's Captain Ron and each week are Beyond Contact.

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Speaker 3: We'll explore the latest news in ufology, discuss some of

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Speaker 3: the classic cases, and bring you the latest information from

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Speaker 3: the newest cases as we talked with the top experts.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to Beyond Contact. I am Captain Rona today, where

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Speaker 4: you are absolutely honored to be speaking with the acclaimed

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Speaker 4: investigative journalist mister George Knapp. George is the chief investigative

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Speaker 4: reporter for KLAS TV in Las Vegas, as well as

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Speaker 4: a weekend host on Coast to Coast AM. He's far

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Speaker 4: too humble to want to hear this, but he has

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Speaker 4: won multiple Edward R. Mureau Awards, Peabody Awards, Mark Twain Awards,

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Speaker 4: Emmy Awards, et cetera, et cetera for his incredible work

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Speaker 4: in journalism. He has graciously participated in the last couple

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Speaker 4: of contact of the desert events, and I'm very grateful

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Speaker 4: for that. His reporting on Bob Blazar in Area fifty

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Speaker 4: one broke that story wide open for all of us,

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Speaker 4: and he is with us today because he just testified

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Speaker 4: before Congress at the UAP hearings, and I thought he

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Speaker 4: was the perfect choice to do. So. Hey, George, thanks

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Speaker 4: so much for taking the time. Man.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Captain ron, I salute you. Good to talk to you, Thanks, Bud. Hey,

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Speaker 5: So this latest hearing was very interesting to me. You know,

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Speaker 5: the only frustration I felt was the limited time you

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Speaker 5: guys got. I kept feeling like, man, if they could

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Speaker 5: just give George seven or eight hours, they would really

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Speaker 5: have a different understanding of the phenomenon. What was your

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Speaker 5: takeaway from the hearing, Well, you know, we were given

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Speaker 5: the parameters going in and everyone was supposed to have

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Speaker 5: a five minute opening segment, and then there was going

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Speaker 5: to be as many questions as they wanted, and they

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Speaker 5: kept going for a couple hours. I know a lot

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Speaker 5: of people are angry because Representative Luna, the chairperson, cut

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Speaker 5: me off, but she had to. I mean, I wrote,

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Speaker 5: I'd still be talking if they had allowed me to continue.

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Speaker 5: I wrote way more content for that hearing than could

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Speaker 5: possibly fit in that timeframe. She cut me off at

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Speaker 5: about seven minutes, so allowed me to go two minutes over.

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Speaker 5: But she came back around and there were a lot

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Speaker 5: of questions related to the things that I was going

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Speaker 5: to testify to. Anyway, I didn't get everything in that

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Speaker 5: I wanted in, but I got most of it.

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Speaker 4: I was honestly very impressed with all of the questions.

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Speaker 4: People were very much more informed than I anticipated them

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Speaker 4: to be. That's what I wanted to ask you right away.

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Speaker 4: Was there something that you didn't get a chance to

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Speaker 4: get out because of the time constraints.

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Speaker 5: Well, there are a couple of things I was going

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Speaker 5: to say about disclosure. You know, I've always been a

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Speaker 5: pessimist about disclosure. The glass is not only half empty,

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Speaker 5: it's bone dry.

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Speaker 4: For me.

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Speaker 5: I think that they're never going to come clean. They're

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Speaker 5: never going to admit this stuff, because I think a

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Speaker 5: lot of them would go to prison. It's possible for that.

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Speaker 5: So I was going to propose an idea that Robert

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Speaker 5: Bigelow and I've been kicking around for controlled disclosure, a

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Speaker 5: limited sort of disclosure where the president comes forward says, look,

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Speaker 5: they're here, these craft. We've got this stuff. We've collected

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Speaker 5: it and kept it in secret for a long time.

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Speaker 5: We haven't figured out the technology. It's all real, folks.

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Speaker 5: Your suspicions are right, but we can't say more than

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Speaker 5: that because we there was a legitimate security issue. We

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Speaker 5: are in a race for this technology against the Russians

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Speaker 5: and the Chinese and maybe a couple of other nations

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Speaker 5: as well, and whoever gets that technology win. So accept

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Speaker 5: my apology. It's all been true, but we can't say

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Speaker 5: any more than that. I think, you know, the UFO

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Speaker 5: world would be dissatisfied with that. They'd be screaming and

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Speaker 5: banging on the table. But some of the possibilities would

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Speaker 5: be the scientific community, which you know has ignored the

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Speaker 5: subject because of the stigma, the perceived stigma, would realize, hey,

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Speaker 5: this is real. It's acceptable now to work on it,

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Speaker 5: and engineers would work on it. You have our best

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Speaker 5: scientists who would thus be free to go ahead and

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Speaker 5: dive in and take a look at it. You know,

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Speaker 5: our country, the secrecy is so severe. We don't have

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Speaker 5: our best and brightest scientists and engineers working on this.

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Speaker 5: There is a reverse engineering program. It's been underway for

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Speaker 5: at least seventy five years and maybe longer, and we

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Speaker 5: haven't made much progress because it's within such a small

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Speaker 5: circle of people. You can't tell anybody about it. So

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Speaker 5: I think that a limited disclosure, if it came from

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Speaker 5: this particular president, would go a long way. It would

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Speaker 5: distract away from other things that he doesn't want to

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Speaker 5: talk about anyway, I think, And that's what I was

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Speaker 5: going to pitch. I also had a couple of quotes

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Speaker 5: from Jay Stratton, who was instrumental in creating AFSAP. He

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Speaker 5: was instrumental in creating a TIP. He was the first

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Speaker 5: director of the UAP task forse even before it was

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Speaker 5: authorized by Congress. He was in charge of it. He

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Speaker 5: did great work. He has had his own personal face

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Speaker 5: to face experiences and encounters with whatever this is. And

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Speaker 5: he gave a couple of statements about look, the real

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Speaker 5: danger here is that without congressional oversight, we'll go right

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Speaker 5: back as the same people who kept this secret for

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Speaker 5: eighty years will keep it secret for another eighty years.

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Speaker 5: Unless we force their hand and make them cough up

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Speaker 5: some information or at least admit there's something really to it,

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Speaker 5: they won't do it. And that's what I really wanted

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Speaker 5: to get across. But I'll tell you Ron, that committee,

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Speaker 5: the task force was very impressive to me in that

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Speaker 5: Number one, they really knew their stuff, they had good questions,

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Speaker 5: they weren't messing around. All of them or their staffs

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Speaker 5: had done homework on this. And number two, it was bipartisan.

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Speaker 5: You have far left Democrats and far right Republicans who

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Speaker 5: got along and were able to ask questions and be

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Speaker 5: on the same page on any topic. These days, it's amazing.

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Speaker 5: But it really was maybe the only issue on which

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Speaker 5: members of Congress have bipartisan agreement that it's legit and

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Speaker 5: just should be investigated agreed.

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Speaker 4: Number Three, I would add that everybody took it hell serious.

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Speaker 4: There was no dismissive, derogatory, nothing. Yeah, So that was

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Speaker 4: interesting and I would be very satisfied if we got

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Speaker 4: that limited disclosure like that. I think everybody in the

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Speaker 4: community would feel validated. And again, as soon as you

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Speaker 4: said that, I immediately thought, well, this would make it

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Speaker 4: okay for scientists to look at it, and that's what

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Speaker 4: I want.

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Speaker 5: Biglow was really interested in many of the people who

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Speaker 5: work with him, and the time is right because there

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Speaker 5: are a lot of people around Trump who are definitely

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Speaker 5: interested in this. His Secretary of State, former senator has

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Speaker 5: made many public statements, his Director of the CIA has

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Speaker 5: made statements about the reality of this and the technology,

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Speaker 5: and I think the time is right for some progress

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Speaker 5: to be made there.

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Speaker 4: Not to mention his son, yeah, exactly. In your testimony,

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Speaker 4: you recounted an account from a Russian ICBM base where

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Speaker 4: a UFO took control of their launch systems, which is

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Speaker 4: very similar to the nuclear witnesses that we have such

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Speaker 4: as Bob Sallas, Robert Jacobs and others. Do you think

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Speaker 4: this is a good approach to get Congress members on

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Speaker 4: board because it's sort of safe and everyone should be

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Speaker 4: concerned about this.

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Speaker 5: Right, absolutely, I mean that was the point of sharing

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Speaker 5: that story. It was October nineteen eighty two that ICBM

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Speaker 5: base was in Ukraine. The missiles were ready and pointed

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Speaker 5: and targeted at US. If they were fired, world War

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Speaker 5: II would start and we'd all be going. So this

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Speaker 5: UFO appears over that base. It splits apart, it merges

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Speaker 5: back together, It performs in incredible maneuvers. This one on

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Speaker 5: for a couple of hours, and we know about it

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Speaker 5: because these documents are brought back from Russia. All of

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Speaker 5: the witness statements are Russian officers at this key base,

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Speaker 5: and they all describe what had happened. After being up

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Speaker 5: there for a couple of hours. Suddenly the launch control

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Speaker 5: system inside this base lights up, lights up a big display.

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Speaker 5: Something entered the launch control codes a specific codes in

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Speaker 5: a specific sequence. The missile fired up and they were

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Speaker 5: ready to go. The Russians are frantic trying to shut

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Speaker 5: this thing down. They couldn't do it. I mean, we

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Speaker 5: are moments away from global catastrophe. The UFO suddenly goes poof,

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Speaker 5: It's gone. The launch control system goes back to normal,

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Speaker 5: the missiles disarmed. Basically, they essentially stop their launch control

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Speaker 5: sequence and Ministry Defense sends a team in. They take

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Speaker 5: this stuff apart. They can't figure out what had caused

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Speaker 5: it until they realized the UFO caused it, and it

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Speaker 5: was sending a message. These might be your most powerful weapons,

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Speaker 5: but they don't impress us all that much. It's sort

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Speaker 5: of similar to what's happened here what they call the

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Speaker 5: Northern tiercases. One base after another visited by UFOs, and

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Speaker 5: the missiles there were taken off line. They weren't fired up,

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Speaker 5: ready to go. They were taken off line, so if

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Speaker 5: there had been an emergency or a conflict, we couldn't

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Speaker 5: have used them. So, you know, Bob Sallas, Bob Jacobs,

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Speaker 5: those guys, I mentioned them in my testimony because they

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Speaker 5: are true Americans. They heeded the call that came forward

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Speaker 5: to Arrow, told them what they know and what they

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Speaker 5: had seen and experienced, and they were dismissed like their nutcases.

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Speaker 5: And it's an insult to those kind of guys who

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Speaker 5: had legitimate careers, served their country admirably, and they get

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Speaker 5: left out of the room by Arrow, which is supposed

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Speaker 5: to be investigating this stuff and taking it seriously.

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Speaker 4: And these are bright guys working on nuclear bases. I mean,

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Speaker 4: it's not like these are clowns. It's a shame, you know.

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Speaker 4: I found it interesting that Chief Wiggins told of an

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Speaker 4: account right off the coast of southern California, which you

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Speaker 4: yourself had been investigating on your documentary series. Seems to

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Speaker 4: be something happening in that area. And even TikTok was

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Speaker 4: sort of near there, right, So there's a lot of

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Speaker 4: activity in that area.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know what it is exactly, but I mean,

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Speaker 5: you talk to any of these military guys, the Navy

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Speaker 5: guys in particular, who are out there and stationed in

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Speaker 5: that general area off southern California and Mexico, and they

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Speaker 5: see this stuff on a regular basis. Tictac was two

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Speaker 5: thousand and four. This incident the Chief Wiggins shared with us.

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Speaker 5: He was on the ship USS Jackson, and they had

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Speaker 5: four tic TACs four one the first one that they

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Speaker 5: saw on their radar system and then he saw it

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Speaker 5: with its eyes, and then he went back into the

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Speaker 5: radar the central control system, and there were four of

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Speaker 5: these objects and they left all together. There were four

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Speaker 5: different points of lights, but it was like they were

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Speaker 5: one object when it departed, and it was instantaneous. That's

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Speaker 5: not our technology. What are they doing out there? What

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Speaker 5: is it that they're interested and why are they showing

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Speaker 5: themselves Because clearly, if they didn't want us to see them,

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Speaker 5: we wouldn't see them.

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Speaker 4: That's right. We're going to take a break there, George.

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Speaker 4: We come back. We're going to ask you about the

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Speaker 4: possible benefits of passing one of these whistleblower protection bills

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Speaker 4: or the UAP Disclosure Act itself. You're listening to Beyond

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Speaker 4: Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal

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Speaker 4: podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact, Captain Ron

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Speaker 4: speaking with George Nap. George, what are your thoughts on

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Speaker 4: a whistleblower protection bill? I know they're talking about introducing one.

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Speaker 4: If we get something past the truly protected whistleblowers, do

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Speaker 4: you think we'd see a flood of people come forward.

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Speaker 5: I would hope. So, you know, Tim Burchett, Congressman Burchett,

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Speaker 5: who is a very savvy guy on this committee and

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Speaker 5: this task course, has introduced such legislation. I think there's

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Speaker 5: a Senate equivalent, and there's hope that it would be

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Speaker 5: attached to the larger UAP bill. And it's needed because

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Speaker 5: there are people, I mean, I'm in touch with them

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Speaker 5: on a regular basis, Jeremy Corbell as well, guys who

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Speaker 5: would like to tell a story but are scared legitimately scared.

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Speaker 5: These three who came forward, the three service members who testified.

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Speaker 5: It's brave. It's a daunting thing to appear before Congress,

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Speaker 5: swear an oath. The whole world is watching. You don't

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Speaker 5: know what you're going to be asked, TV cameras from

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Speaker 5: all over media, all over the world. It's a daunting thing.

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Speaker 5: It takes bravery come forward, especially because there is a

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Speaker 5: strong possibility that you will pay for coming forward and

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Speaker 5: telling this story, and a couple of them already had.

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Speaker 5: We didn't hear the full story from Dylan Borland that

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Speaker 5: will be coming out though soon. There's some limits on

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Speaker 5: what he can legally say. He'd like to say more,

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Speaker 5: but he worries that he's going to be targeted for

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Speaker 5: prosecution or something worse. Matt Brown is the guy who

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Speaker 5: was sitting behind us at the hearing. He was also

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Speaker 5: offered as a possible witness, and maybe we'll be will

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Speaker 5: be a witness and testify in a future hearing. He's

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Speaker 5: the guy who came up with the Immaculate Constellation documents

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Speaker 5: a couple of months ago that Jeremy and I put

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Speaker 5: out on a podcast. He described to us extra legal

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Speaker 5: things that happened to him and other witnesses who want

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Speaker 5: to come forward as whistleblowers. They get break ins in

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Speaker 5: their homes. There are a lot of games. Their phones

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Speaker 5: are tapped. At his home, there was a break in.

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Speaker 5: They got IDs and stuff out of his wallet and

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Speaker 5: his wife's wallet and put him across the couch and

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Speaker 5: left them there. They took his grandfather's ashes, his urn

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Speaker 5: and dumped it out by the garbage. I mean, it's

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Speaker 5: a message, It's an intimidation message. David Grush has had

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Speaker 5: those kinds of things as far back as Bob Lazar.

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Speaker 5: They would break into his house, move things around, write

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Speaker 5: things on the chuck board where he in his laboratory,

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Speaker 5: and just mess with him, call and make threats, all

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Speaker 5: kinds of extra legal things that I don't think even

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Speaker 5: a Whistleblower Protection Act could change, because whoever's doing this stuff,

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Speaker 5: whoever is trying to shut these people up, threatening their lives,

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Speaker 5: it's working outside the legal system. It's already illegal. So

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Speaker 5: I don't know that that would stop. But at least

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Speaker 5: Congress would be making a statement that we value that

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Speaker 5: kind of testimony. We want to protect you. Come on in.

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Speaker 5: We'd like to hear more of it. It's a good

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Speaker 5: step in the right direction, I think, agreed.

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Speaker 4: What about this UAP Disclosure Act itself. You know, as

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Speaker 4: amazing as that act sounds to me, and Danny's all

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Speaker 4: excited about it and he thinks it can really do

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Speaker 4: some great things. I fear even if we get that

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Speaker 4: act passd I'm afraid that there'll be a little benefit because,

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Speaker 4: how you aptly pointed out in your testimony at the hearing,

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Speaker 4: these legacy protectors are farming this et tech out to

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Speaker 4: private companies like Lockheed and raytheon and whatever right now.

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Speaker 4: So that's outside of congressional oversight. So we really probably

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Speaker 4: couldn't get much coverage from Congress anyway, right.

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Speaker 5: I think there are ways that this could be tracked

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Speaker 5: down even if it has been taken outside the government,

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Speaker 5: which I'm absolutely sure that it has. These companies, these contracts,

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Speaker 5: big defense contractors, aerospace companies have done for decades what

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Speaker 5: we ask them to do. And I know I've been

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Speaker 5: one of those who've been critical of the Lockheeds of

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Speaker 5: the world on the assumption that they've been hiding this

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Speaker 5: big dark secret for so long. But that's what they

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Speaker 5: were asked to do by government, and they've done a

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Speaker 5: good job of it. I mean, I don't know how

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Speaker 5: much progress they've made on the technology. They have done

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Speaker 5: exactly what we've asked, you know. I'm not sure that

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Speaker 5: they would be willing to give this stuff up after

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Speaker 5: spending all these decades trying to figure it out. I

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Speaker 5: don't know if they've been paid for it, but to

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Speaker 5: ask them just hand it over and face possible prosecution

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Speaker 5: if they do not cooperate is a big ask. I'd

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Speaker 5: like to see some way that the Lockheeds of the

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Speaker 5: world could be given an off rame. As I said,

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Speaker 5: I think they've done the job we ask them to do.

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Speaker 5: I don't think we they should be castigated for it.

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Speaker 5: But there has to be a way that there's a

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Speaker 5: benefit for them in coming forward with this information and

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Speaker 5: with the technology and it just admitting it to someone

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Speaker 5: within the government. I think there are ways to track

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Speaker 5: this down, maybe financial audits of where money has changed

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Speaker 5: hands for what program. I suspect there was a congressional

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Speaker 5: investigator that I interacted with back in the nineties who

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Speaker 5: thought that that was the case, that tens of millions,

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Speaker 5: maybe tens of billions of dollars had been funneled away

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Speaker 5: from legitimate national security programs into this kind of research

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Speaker 5: to keep it alive without congressional approval, without anyone's approval.

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Speaker 5: And he told me back then, look when this comes out,

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Speaker 5: people are going to go to prison. He never found it.

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Speaker 5: This Congress has not found it yet. But they got

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Speaker 5: to figure out a way to give an incentive to

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Speaker 5: the companies have been holding this stuff to go ahead

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Speaker 5: and cough it up, or at least acknowledge they've got it.

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Speaker 5: I think that they would like the help. I anticipate

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Speaker 5: that they would appreciate some assistance on figuring this out.

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Speaker 5: That's what I testified to with permission from people I'm

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Speaker 5: close to, is that there was an effort during the

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Speaker 5: offset program that was based here in Las Vegas, the

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Speaker 5: DIA investigation, to change hands with some of that material

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Speaker 5: that Lockheed agreed to hand it over. There's another side

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Speaker 5: to that agreement with the BASS and as AT people.

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Speaker 5: There's another side to that deal that has not been

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Speaker 5: made public that I can't share, but there was something

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Speaker 5: in it for both of them, and I think we

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Speaker 5: got to figure out a way to have something in

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Speaker 5: it for both sides if we're going to expect these

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Speaker 5: big conglomerates to God just.

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Speaker 4: Turn it over, of course, and that's fair. You know.

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Speaker 4: One of the central points you've said that what's been

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Speaker 4: documented in government, military and intelligence agency records often contradicts

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Speaker 4: the public narrative that UAPs are nothing, it's just misidentification.

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Speaker 4: Could these bills possibly help us to get at least

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Speaker 4: some more of that documentation out?

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Speaker 5: I think so. Here's the thing, and I said it

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Speaker 5: in the testimony and I've said it before. What hooked

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Speaker 5: me on the subject was not aliens at Area fifty

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Speaker 5: one or alien technology. It was the paper trail. As

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Speaker 5: a journalist, I can't go out in the desert and

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Speaker 5: find aliens or flying saucers, although I've done that hundreds

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Speaker 5: of times unsuccessfully. But if paper trail that exists, I

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Speaker 5: could track that. And that's what hooked me, because it

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Speaker 5: is very clear that what the Department of Defense now

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Speaker 5: the Department of War, the CIA, and other agencies say

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Speaker 5: in public, there's nothing to it. It's not a threat,

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Speaker 5: we have it under control. Don't worry your pretty little

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Speaker 5: head in looking at UFOs. Just move along, folks. Nothing

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Speaker 5: to see here. Is completely contrary to what they said

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Speaker 5: to each other behind closed doors. Before FOYA existed, for

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Speaker 5: the Freedom of Information Act was the law of the land,

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Speaker 5: they would very candidly express, Hey, this stuff is real,

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Speaker 5: it's from somewhere else. It's not us, it's not Russians.

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Speaker 5: Where's it from. We think it might be from outer space,

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Speaker 5: extraterrestrial And they would say that candidly to each other.

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Speaker 5: At the same time they were saying that to each other,

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Speaker 5: they told the public something completely different. As I found out,

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Speaker 5: that's exactly what they did in Russia too, and are

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Speaker 5: still doing lying to the public about something that they

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Speaker 5: say behind the scenes. Now, after FOYA became the law

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Speaker 5: of the land, they got a lot better at hiding stuff.

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Speaker 5: They no longer wrote these kind of candid statements, clear

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Speaker 5: statements that this stuff is real, it's from somewhere else.

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Speaker 5: They couched it in weasel words and wouldn't give it away.

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Speaker 5: So the more recent documents are probably going to be

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Speaker 5: harder to get anything good out of. But there's a

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Speaker 5: giant storehouse of previous documentation, assuming that hasn't been destroyed yet.

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Speaker 5: That paint's a very clear picture. It's real, it's not us.

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Speaker 5: We need to get on it.

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Speaker 4: They feel somehow to me one step ahead all the time.

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Speaker 4: You know, this brings me to another frustrating thing for

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Speaker 4: me personally. George's what about how even in this specific hearing,

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Speaker 4: Dylan Borland and I think someone else also expressed how

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Speaker 4: they can't talk about these things in an open session.

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Speaker 4: They would say, I'll talk to you in a private

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Speaker 4: skiff to discuss these matters. But then they point out

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Speaker 4: that the congress members themselves don't have the clearances to

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Speaker 4: even go to the skiff to hear that information. How

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Speaker 4: do they even know what to ask?

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Speaker 5: It is frustrating, but it's the system we've set up,

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Speaker 5: and somebody like Dylan who has quite a story to

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Speaker 5: tell beyond what he could tell there. Dylan has been

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Speaker 5: through the Ringer, He's been through the ICIG, he's been

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Speaker 5: to Arrow, He's been in these closed door skiffs type

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Speaker 5: meetings where he reveals this stuff, and he's worried they're

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Speaker 5: coming after him. He has a good reason to be worried.

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Speaker 5: I'll tell you a story that didn't come out of

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Speaker 5: that hearing. Jeremy has been talking to Dylan longer than

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Speaker 5: I have, but I've been talking to him for a

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Speaker 5: couple of years we went back to see him after

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Speaker 5: the last hearing. The previous hearing in twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 5: we went to go meet with Dylan and we went

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Speaker 5: to a secret location. We didn't tell anybody where it

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Speaker 5: was going to be. We met him in a public

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Speaker 5: park south of Washington, d C. Not even in the

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Speaker 5: DC area, and we're going to meet him in this

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Speaker 5: park early in the morning. We pulled him this park.

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Speaker 5: Dylan's the only person there, but there's a vehicle. There's

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Speaker 5: a big black jeep blacked out windows sitting there and

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Speaker 5: I'm just looking at and I go, you know, I

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Speaker 5: don't feel comfortable sitting here. This bothers me. Let's go

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Speaker 5: somewhere else. We drove about fifteen miles away. We found

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Speaker 5: a little eatery that we're going to have a bite at.

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Speaker 5: We parked two blocks around a corner from that restaurant,

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Speaker 5: and then we went in and had a talk and

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Speaker 5: what we thought was a secure place. We come out

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Speaker 5: an hour and a half later, there's that same damn

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Speaker 5: vehicle parked right up against our bunk, our bumper of

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Speaker 5: our car. It was making it very obvious to us. Then, yeah,

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Speaker 5: you're being followed.

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Speaker 4: How do you like Uh wow, that is incredible. You're

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Speaker 4: listening to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to

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Speaker 4: Coast AM Paranormal podcast network. We are back on Beyond

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Speaker 4: Contact speaking with mister George Knapp. George, I also find

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Speaker 4: how strange all of this works. Like we have these

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Speaker 4: guys like luel A Zondo who will say I can't

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Speaker 4: say that in a public forum. I can talk, and

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Speaker 4: then sometimes he kind of does say certain things. Then

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Speaker 4: you get a guy like hell put Off who's been

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Speaker 4: pretty silent on this issue his whole life. Then suddenly

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Speaker 4: he shows up on Rogan and says, actually flat out says,

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Speaker 4: the US has covered more than ten craft of unknown origin.

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Speaker 4: Doctor James Lkatski told you that he can say we

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Speaker 4: recovered a craft, but he couldn't say much else, and

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Speaker 4: that they told him it was okay to say that.

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Speaker 4: How does all this happen?

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Speaker 5: I don't know exactly what the rules are. I can

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Speaker 5: tell you this, I've heard those stories from those guys

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Speaker 5: for a long time. Was not allowed to say it

431
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 5: or report it.

432
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 4: See you're not allowed to say it. They're not allowed

433
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 4: to say it.

434
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,440
Speaker 5: Nobody's allowed us because a promise I made I made

435
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,880
Speaker 5: a promise to his sources. It's a different kind of restriction.

436
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:30,679
Speaker 5: You know, you're sure. You make a promise, you've got

437
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,119
Speaker 5: to keep it. If I violated that confidence, I'd be

438
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,200
Speaker 5: out of business. You know, nobody's share that with you again.

439
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 5: People like Dylan Borland, they're trying to navigate this as

440
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,879
Speaker 5: carefully as they can. They've been threatened, they've been intimidated,

441
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 5: they've been warned you better be careful. They've shared what

442
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 5: they can in skiffs and in certain situations. But there's

443
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,800
Speaker 5: a lot more they'd like to say. I don't blame

444
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,360
Speaker 5: them for being careful. Now. Why how putoff could then

445
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 5: say that on Joe Rogan? He just might be the

446
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,399
Speaker 5: power of Rogan to overcome all resistance, I guess, But

447
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,479
Speaker 5: he did. You know, I know that there are people

448
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 5: like those guys, deep insiders, who spent their whole careers

449
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 5: working on this stuff, who would like to say things,

450
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,440
Speaker 5: would like to say more. Hall surprised me last year

451
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 5: when he came forward with an admission that he'd been

452
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 5: part of a secret study. A bunch of braining acts

453
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 5: like him were brought together. I think back in the

454
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 5: Bush administration, put in a room given access to all

455
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 5: kinds of information, and given the assignment, is disclosure a

456
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 5: good idea? Should we disclose now? Hypothetical exercise? Well that

457
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 5: a lot of the people who were there were predisposed

458
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 5: to say, yes, yeah, we should. The public has a

459
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 5: right to know. But as they sat there for a

460
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 5: couple of days and kicked around the evidence and evaluated

461
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,640
Speaker 5: what the social impact would be, how our institutions were

462
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 5: to react by the end of that exercise, after a

463
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 5: couple of days, they came the conclusion, no, it's not

464
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 5: a good idea because there would be repercussions. There would

465
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 5: be disruptions of social institutions. People think they're ready for it.

466
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 5: We can handle it, we can handle the truth. Well,

467
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 5: are you sure, because what is the truth?

468
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 4: Yeah? We don't know what the truth is that we're

469
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:03,880
Speaker 4: saying we're ready for.

470
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean, you know, I can think of some

471
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 5: pretty dark scenarios that I don't think the majority people

472
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 5: would be ready for, even diehard UFO folks. You know.

473
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 5: I'll also say this, I've been at this for thirty

474
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 5: eight years, and I've been lucky to attach myself and

475
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 5: get to know the smartest people who've worked the longest

476
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 5: on the inside on this issue, I don't know a

477
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,959
Speaker 5: single person who can say for sure what it is,

478
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 5: what is the truth? I don't know anybody who knows

479
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 5: it ets, time travelers, interdimensionals, crypto terrestrials, all of the above.

480
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 4: I don't know even some of the alleged witnesses and

481
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 4: people whose claim contact EAT they've had contact experiences off.

482
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 4: Even someone as famous as Whitley says, I don't know

483
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 4: what it is. He calls them the visitors because he

484
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 4: doesn't have a name for it.

485
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 5: You know.

486
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 4: Another aspect of the hearing I really enjoyed was how

487
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 4: several people went at ARROW, including Representative Luna, who went

488
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 4: so far as to call Sean Kirkpatrick a documented liar

489
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 4: and bring into question with the purpose that he was

490
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 4: even at ARROW four. I've always personally felt that Arrow

491
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 4: was not gathering information to share it with the public

492
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 4: or with Congress, but rather just to see what we knew.

493
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 4: What do you think?

494
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 5: It certainly appears that Arrow is little more than a

495
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 5: counterintelligence program. I mean, I'm sure that there has people there,

496
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 5: including the current director Kozlowski, who do want some answers,

497
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 5: who would like to do an honest investigation but that

498
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 5: organization has been so tainted by the stinch left behind

499
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 5: by Sean Kirkpatrick. You know, honest witnesses like Bob Salas,

500
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 5: like Bob Jacobs, people like that that came forward, gave

501
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 5: their story and then they were dismissed as liars or

502
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:41,120
Speaker 5: fanciful storytellers or grifters, dismissed outright. I don't know anybody

503
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 5: whose story was taken seriously. I can't imagine a whistleblower

504
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,679
Speaker 5: or witness ever going to Arrow again, which is a shame, because,

505
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 5: as I said, I think there are people there who'd

506
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 5: like to be doing it. It looks like they were

507
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 5: seeing who would come forward, how much they'd tell, and

508
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 5: now we know who these people are and where they

509
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 5: are because they didn't act on any of that information.

510
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 4: That's exactly what it seems like, and it makes me

511
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 4: sick to my stomach. It was Grunge sign and Blue

512
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 4: Book all over again. Luna's flat out said she'd subpoena Kirkpatrick.

513
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 4: Do you think she would? But the question does I

514
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 4: fear that, As you pointed out, George, these guys can

515
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 4: lie to protect their classification anyway.

516
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 5: I think she has a hankering to do exactly that.

517
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 5: I don't know if she'll be given subpoena power or

518
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 5: not by the Oversight Committee chairman or not, but I

519
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,919
Speaker 5: think she had a right to be tipped off at Kirkpatrick.

520
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 5: He comes out with this juvenile statement before the hearing,

521
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 5: just as soon as the witness names are announced, where

522
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 5: he attacks her, He attacks the committee, the task force.

523
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 5: He has a nickname Luna's Lunatics. What a thin skin

524
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 5: butt had this guy is why he's been going from

525
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 5: that job almost two years. He comes out and attacks

526
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 5: the witnesses as their fanciful storytellers and they just want

527
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 5: attention or their grifters. Not true one tiny bit for

528
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 5: these guys. They served their country admirably. They're not there

529
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,199
Speaker 5: to grift here because they were invited by Congress to

530
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 5: tell what they know. Kirkpatrick uses these names that sounds

531
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 5: like something a seventh grader would say to the kids

532
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 5: out by the tether ball court or something, and is

533
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 5: so thin skinned every time he opens his mouth. It

534
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 5: is further proof that he should never have been given

535
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 5: that job. And the terrible stain that he left on

536
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 5: Arrow might be so deep that it could never be repaired.

537
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 5: It's a shame.

538
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 4: Oh, I think I think Arrow's done. Who would go

539
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 4: to Errow now, Like you said, nobody, it's a shame.

540
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 4: So we wanted to get to what did you think

541
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 4: of the new Eric Berlasson video. I know you had

542
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 4: been familiar with that case, but now you saw the

543
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 4: video in Congress? What'd you think of that?

544
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 5: It was every bit as good as we were told

545
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 5: that it was. Jeremy and I have been told about

546
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 5: it a couple of months ago, right after it had happened,

547
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 5: and we were hoping, well, someday maybe we'll get that video.

548
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 5: Well there it was. You know, I've seen some pretty

549
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 5: reasonable explanations, not the typical debunkers who say, well it

550
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 5: looks like a hellfire missile that hit a balloon, all right,

551
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 5: So who authorized sending a hundred thousand dollars hell fire

552
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 5: missile to take out a balloon over Yemen? Number two?

553
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 5: Why did it bounce off? Now I know this. People

554
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 5: have said, oh, it's didn't really deflect. Well, I'm looking

555
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 5: at it with my own eyes. I am not an

556
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 5: image analyst. I don't work these radar platforms or sensor systems,

557
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 5: so I'm not an expert. Don't claim to be, But

558
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 5: it sure as hell look to me like that missile

559
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 5: bounced off and didn't explode, and then the four little

560
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 5: things pop out or three little things and follow along

561
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,159
Speaker 5: with this balloon. I mean I was.

562
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 4: Joking, moving at that rate of speed.

563
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, and move with them. We have been told there's

564
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 5: another five minute long video. The whole video is five

565
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 5: minutes longer, and we're told that there is a report

566
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,959
Speaker 5: that list that object as a UAP, not as a balloon.

567
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 5: I mean, what kind of balloon is that super duper secret,

568
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 5: hoothy balloon made out of titanium? A led zeppelin? You

569
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 5: know what kind of it was. I don't know what

570
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 5: the explanation is, but I know that the explanations we

571
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 5: heard so far just don't cut it.

572
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 4: Agreed, Okay. It came up in the hearing that we

573
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 4: may in fact be racing with other countries such as

574
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 4: China and Russia and others to decipher these et technologies,

575
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 4: and perhaps we don't want to reveal anything publicly to

576
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 4: reveal to them what we know. Do you think that's

577
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 4: at least in part the reason for the secrecy.

578
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 5: Absolutely, I think it is the primary reason for the

579
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 5: secrecy now and it's a reason why we haven't come

580
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 5: forward and leveled with the public. This has been told

581
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 5: to me by a lot of people on the inside.

582
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 5: There's a name that you would know who shared it

583
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 5: this way. Just you can't tell your friends without telling

584
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 5: your enemies. We don't want to admit to Russia and

585
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 5: China that we have this stuff and we're working on

586
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 5: it and racing to figure it out, although they know

587
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 5: we've got it and we know they've got it. You know,

588
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 5: I gave a couple of the names of the people

589
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 5: who now I have not been told directly face to face.

590
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 5: Senator Howry Reid, the Senate Majority Leader. Senator Howard Cannon,

591
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 5: who was a four term senator from Nevada who tried

592
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 5: with Mary Goldwater to get into Wright Patterson to see

593
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 5: the goodies. A guy named al O'Donnell who was the

594
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 5: first general manager Egen g Here in Nevada, oversaw the

595
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 5: Nevada Testing program, the atomic weapons program, and at Area

596
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 5: fifty one. All of them have told me that it's

597
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 5: real and we've got this stuff. And Red even knows

598
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 5: from briefings that he had that the Russians and Chinese

599
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 5: have it as well. Maybe the Israelis and maybe the

600
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 5: ir audiences as well. So, you know, we need to

601
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 5: be honest about it. We need to keep a lid

602
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 5: on what we want to share with the public. But

603
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 5: you can acknowledge in general what the whole world already knows,

604
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 5: certainly the Russians and Chinese know, is that we've got

605
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 5: this stuff and we're trying to figure out how to

606
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 5: reduplicate it.

607
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 4: It also came up during that that there's this issue

608
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 4: of overclassification. Do you think that that's done intentionally just

609
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 4: to further muddy the waters and make everything difficult to

610
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 4: get to absolutely?

611
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, there are so many examples of it,

612
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 5: and it's not just in UFOs. It's over classification of

613
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 5: everything because they don't want to answer questions. You know,

614
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 5: it is ridiculous that there is one person in the

615
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 5: entire United States government who is authorized as the spokesperson

616
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 5: for any of these program Graham's dealing with UFOs, one

617
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 5: woman who is a counterintelligence expert. Psychological warfare was her specialty.

618
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 5: She's the belly button through which any answers to the

619
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 5: public Eddy Foyer request must pass. It's preposterous, it's ridiculous.

620
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 4: It absolutely is. When you think of it on the face,

621
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 4: it's just crazy. When we come back, we're going to

622
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 4: ask George about the name that he gave to Representative

623
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 4: Luna when she asked the group for a name. You're

624
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 4: listening to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to

625
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 4: Coast Paranormal Podcast Network. We're back on Beyond Contact talking

626
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 4: with the great mister George Nap. George. During this hearing,

627
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 4: Representative Luna asked all of you for a name that

628
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 4: you guys could give her, and you spit out. Glenn Gaffney,

629
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,719
Speaker 4: who was the former Director of Science and Technology at

630
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 4: the CIA, what do you think I think he can

631
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 4: provide to Congress?

632
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 5: What I was told is he was a direct contact

633
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 5: and overseer with a couple of these aerospace companies about

634
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 5: the goodies, where it went, what they were doing with it.

635
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 5: He was the point of contact for CIA Science and

636
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 5: Technology on who did what without material And the reason

637
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 5: it came up was during that AFSAP program, the DIA

638
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 5: program based here in Las Vegas, Robert Bigelow went to

639
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 5: Lockheed and tried to negotiate a transfer of materials. He

640
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 5: had spent a million dollars of his own money at

641
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 5: Bigelow Aerospace to prepare his plant in the event that

642
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 5: had started to receive that kind of material and to

643
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 5: meet certain security standards that was required by the government.

644
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 5: He talked to him. He talked face to face with

645
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 5: this guy, James Ryder, a vice president of Lockheed, longtime guy,

646
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 5: highly respected, who had offered to transfer certain materials that

647
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 5: were hidden at a plant in southern California, give him

648
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 5: to Bass to Bigelow in exchange for something else that

649
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 5: I can't get into. But A he's admitting they've got it.

650
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,239
Speaker 5: B he admits that they don't exactly know what it

651
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 5: is or how it was made. More importantly, it appeared that,

652
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 5: for example, it had been made in zero gravity. Whoever

653
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 5: made this stuff did it in a place We don't

654
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 5: have any labs or factories in outer space in zero gravity,

655
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 5: but whoever made it did so. You know, that confirmed

656
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 5: to me that they do have it, they're trying to

657
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 5: figure it out, and they were willing to exchange some

658
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 5: of it for something else that Lackheed needed. What I

659
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 5: was told was that this Glenn Gaffney guy hit the

660
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 5: roof when he found out that Lockheed still had this

661
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 5: stuff and that it was willing to change hands. He

662
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 5: stopped it dead cold, and then the guy that he

663
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 5: was negotiating with, this vice president Lockheed, died and that

664
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 5: was the end of that.

665
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 4: So I thought it went Bigelow, it would just get

666
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 4: lost in there, just like it is in Lockheed, because

667
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 4: that's a private company as well.

668
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 5: Bigelow is a guy who demands results. He's not a

669
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 5: patient man. You know. They were able to put us

670
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 5: app together in an incredibly short period of time. They

671
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 5: had fifty full time investigators up and running, they got

672
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 5: their security clearances, and they got to work like that.

673
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 5: If they'd been allowed to continue beyond twenty seven months,

674
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 5: we might have a lot of answers because they created

675
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 5: the world's largest UFO database, two hundred and forty thousand

676
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 5: cases from all over the world. And if they'd allowed

677
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,720
Speaker 5: to continue, Jock Bela was going to put an AI

678
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,800
Speaker 5: component over it and be able to connect the dots

679
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 5: and all this data. They produce more than one hundred

680
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 5: highly detailed, highly technical papers, not one of which has

681
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 5: ever been released. So Bigelow is a tough guy to

682
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 5: work for. He cracks the whip, and I think if

683
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,280
Speaker 5: he'd got that material from Lockheed, we'd have some results

684
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 5: by now, we'd have some answers.

685
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 4: Man, it's a shame that didn't happen. You know, if

686
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,320
Speaker 4: tomorrow the government came clean and said, look, yes, UFOs

687
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 4: are real, and they're not from here, like you said,

688
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 4: a limited disclosure, what's the first question George Knapp would

689
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 4: ask that government.

690
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 5: Well, I'd like to know where it came from. Do

691
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 5: we have any idea where it's from, Do we have

692
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:49,280
Speaker 5: any idea who made it? And most importantly, what's their plan?

693
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 5: Are they here for good? Are they trying to connect

694
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 5: with us? Have we had communications? Do we have any idea?

695
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,240
Speaker 5: Are they a threat in a long run? My answer

696
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 5: would probably be no, But again, nobody really knows. So

697
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,439
Speaker 5: I'm really curious about who made it, where they're from,

698
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 5: and what their plan is. That's the core of this mystery.

699
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 5: And I don't expect to have an answer to any

700
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 5: of those things while I'm alive. I hope maybe younger

701
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 5: folks like you might still be around when we hear

702
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 5: some announcement. But not holding my breath.

703
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 4: I love how in your testimony you said let's just

704
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,879
Speaker 4: call them aliens as a placeholder because we don't even

705
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 4: know what we're really dealing with, which I always point

706
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 4: to and I love the way you said that to Congress.

707
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 4: Last year, you did this great six episode documentary mini

708
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 4: series called Investigation Alien on Netflix that explored why they

709
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 4: may be coming here, whatever they or it is. Do

710
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 4: you have a best guess or gut feeling as to

711
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 4: what the phenomenon might be doing here.

712
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,439
Speaker 5: I think we might be an experiment. I think they've

713
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 5: been here basically as long or longer than us. I

714
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 5: think they might have had something to do with us

715
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 5: and our evolution as.

716
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 4: A species and or seated us maybe right.

717
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, something like that. Maybe it did some genetic editing

718
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 5: along the way to give us a little boot here

719
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 5: and there. I don't know where the experiment ends. They

720
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 5: clearly seem to have an interest in us. I mean,

721
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 5: they're also interested in the planet, maybe more interested in

722
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 5: the planet, because that's the message that aliens, these beings

723
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 5: have given to people like Whitley and other contact these

724
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 5: when there is direct communication is look, quit blowing up

725
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 5: nuclear bombs and take care of your planet. I think

726
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 5: long term, they care maybe more about the planet than

727
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 5: they do us, But they're definitely interested in us. They

728
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 5: interact sometimes it's almost like parents interacting with us, and

729
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 5: we're not very good kids either. I really would like

730
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 5: to be around when those answers come in, if they

731
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,439
Speaker 5: ever do. Right now, we don't have them.

732
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 4: I just want to live that long. That's it. You

733
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 4: mentioned it's possible that this is a government siop in

734
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 4: your testimony, because they asked you that question. Do you

735
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 4: think it's maybe a combination of both a little bit

736
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 4: of a syop with genuine UFO activity happening adjacent I do?

737
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 5: I know that they play games with that mind games

738
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 5: with us. They also take credit for things that they

739
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 5: didn't really accomplish some Oh yeah, that's what that was

740
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 5: us fooling the public. Example, half of all UFO sightings

741
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 5: in the fifties and sixties were US spyplanes like the

742
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 5: U two and the SR seventy one. I'm sorry, that's ridiculous.

743
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 5: The U two Does that look like a flying saucer?

744
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 4: Does it help how many of those that we have? Yeah?

745
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 5: Yeah, they're designed not to be seen. They're flown overseas,

746
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 5: not here. I mean the idea that a U two

747
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 5: was going to land in a school yard and hover

748
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 5: over your house or.

749
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 4: Literally laughable, George, literally laughable.

750
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 5: They made that story up retroactively. They were like reverse

751
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 5: engineered history, and they've done that with other things that

752
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 5: I heard a story in the Wall Street Journal a

753
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 5: couple of weeks before this hearing that said that whole

754
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 5: Area fifty one thing that was made up, that was us.

755
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 5: We had an Air Force colonel who went out to

756
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 5: Rachel gave them some fake UFO photos because we wanted

757
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 5: to distract attention away from the real secret Inner A

758
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 5: fifty one, the stealth fighter. Well if that was your plan,

759
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 5: just think how that worked out. You think that because

760
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,479
Speaker 5: you plant the seed that is alien technology, that people

761
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 5: are not going to be interested in it. They're not

762
00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 5: going to be going out there. I mean, we know

763
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 5: what happen because of those stories. They came out at

764
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 5: eighty nine. Every news organization in the world has been

765
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 5: out there, tens of thousands of people out there in

766
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 5: the desert with binoculars and telescopes every single day, Congressional investigators,

767
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 5: all kinds of attention. You think the Russians stopped looking

768
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 5: at Area fifty one because we said it was alien technology,

769
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 5: or would they increase I mean whoever came up with

770
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 5: that proposal, that preposterous idea must have spent the last

771
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 5: part of their Air Force career and Antarctica or something

772
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:29,919
Speaker 5: like that because it was not a very well thought

773
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:30,319
Speaker 5: out plan.

774
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 4: Right, They did the same thing with Roswell as they

775
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 4: kept changing the story and the explanation as to what

776
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 4: happened to Roswell, they would backward engineer a dumb idea.

777
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 4: Do you have any thoughts about the way people cover

778
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 4: this topic. Yes, the giggle factor has kind of gone

779
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 4: away for the most part, which is wonderful. But now

780
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 4: we have social media and we have a thousand podcasters,

781
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 4: and oftentimes this topic seems to get very sensationalized. I

782
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 4: want to see, how does all of this sit with

783
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 4: you today.

784
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 5: Well, I'm glad that there's that kind of dialogue that

785
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 5: the public has energized. Segment of the public is energized

786
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 5: and talks about it. A lot of times. It's circular though,

787
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 5: it's the same people talking about the same stuff to

788
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,879
Speaker 5: each other. That's why this congressional hearing breaks it out

789
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 5: to a larger audience beyond just UFO world. I remember

790
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 5: when I first got involved in it. You know, there's

791
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 5: a steep learning curve ro on. You know that to

792
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,720
Speaker 5: figure all this out, to become familiar with the paper

793
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 5: trail of documents, with the key cases and good witnesses,

794
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 5: it takes time to absorb all that. You know. There

795
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,240
Speaker 5: are people who get into this field because they want attention,

796
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,879
Speaker 5: there's something missing in their lives. They make stuff up.

797
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 5: There's no standard for what a eufologist constitutes, what you

798
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 5: have to do to be qualified as being one of those.

799
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 5: You don't need a degree to be a ufologist, and

800
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 5: so a lot of people who become prominent in the

801
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 5: field really have no business being considered authorities on it

802
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,919
Speaker 5: at all. And then, in addition, the people who keep

803
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 5: this secret, who have confused the public for so long,

804
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 5: are way better at their job than people like I

805
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 5: am at mind because they know their stuff. They know

806
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 5: how to deflect attention, change the subject a dispute, or

807
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 5: put a witness in disrepute, sully their reputations. They're good

808
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 5: at it. While they are on the defensive right now,

809
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 5: they are not down and out. They're dangerous people, and

810
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 5: there's a long way to go before we can break through.

811
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 5: I do get discouraged sometimes by the enmity and nasty

812
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 5: arguments in UFO world. I am on the receiving end

813
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 5: of it every single day of my life. It does

814
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 5: get discouraging if you let it, but you know, this

815
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 5: is a noble cause. I've seen in the last year

816
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 5: and a half that the keepers of these secrets are

817
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 5: still very powerful and very committed to that secrecy. They

818
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 5: enlist major media people, they've had briefings when they're going

819
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,879
Speaker 5: to put something out, have briefings for a select group

820
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 5: of reporters who report things like they're just reprinting a

821
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 5: press release, not asking tough questions, just going along with

822
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,439
Speaker 5: the flow. People who work in national security, who cover

823
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 5: the Pentagon on the CIA every single day, they develop friendships, relationships,

824
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 5: and they do the bidding of these guys, often because

825
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 5: it's just so much easier to make fun of the

826
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 5: goofy UFO people wearing their you know, tinfoil hats and

827
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 5: goofy beanies and T shirts than it is to do

828
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 5: the hard work. I saw that personally. You know, I

829
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 5: had these stories. I was a legitimate reporter here in

830
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 5: Las Vegas. I still am, I think, and had broken

831
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,959
Speaker 5: some big stories, won a bunch of awards but once

832
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 5: I did UFO stuff, suddenly I was alone. I was crazy.

833
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,240
Speaker 5: I mean, I got more pushback from my journalism colleagues

834
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,240
Speaker 5: here in Las Vegas than ever from the UFO crazies

835
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 5: or debunkers. They could not accept the fact that this

836
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 5: supposedly respectable reporter was treating this topic seriously, and they

837
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 5: pummeled me for years. But they'd never done the work.

838
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 5: They'd never gone out and sitting in the desert. It's

839
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 5: fifty one night after night, year after year. They hadn't

840
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 5: read the books, they hadn't ooied the documents. They hadn't

841
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 5: met the witnesses or interviewed or sp spent time with them.

842
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 5: They hadn't done any of that. It's just easier to

843
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 5: make fun of it, and it's still easier to make

844
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,240
Speaker 5: fun of it. But it's changing.

845
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 4: Well, let's hope. So well. Thanks George, I appreciate you

846
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 4: taking the time today. It was very informative, and thanks

847
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 4: for all your work over the years. I mean, you've

848
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 4: done an invaluable amount of contribution to this and we

849
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 4: all appreciate it.

850
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:06,959
Speaker 5: Thanks Ron, I'll see you on the trail.

851
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 4: Absolutely. You can find George at k l a S TV.

852
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 4: In Las Vegas and on his Weaponized podcast with Jeremy Corbel,

853
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 4: and of course you can also hear him on Coast

854
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 4: to Coast AM. You can find me on Twitter and

855
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 4: Instagram at c I T D Underscore Captain Ron. Stay

856
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,720
Speaker 4: connected by checking out Contactinthethdesert dot com. Stay open minded

857
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 4: and rational as we explore the unknown right here on

858
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 4: the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network.

859
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast

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