Speaker 1: Pushkin, and I'm going in I have a question for you.
Speaker 1: I still want to want it. It's not that I
Speaker 1: don't want her. I do intellectually, but I don't know
Speaker 1: if I'm just having trouble getting myself excited about sex
Speaker 1: and my partner wants to have it and it's making
Speaker 1: both of us sad. Yes, this question, it is the question, right,
Speaker 1: It's the question I get from people in long term
Speaker 1: relationships of any structure. And the answer is, there's nothing wrong.
Speaker 1: If you want to want your partner. You want your partner,
Speaker 1: You're all set. Everything you need now is just knowing
Speaker 1: how to get from wanting your partner to a context
Speaker 1: where sexy times seems like the best idea you could
Speaker 1: be having right now. And I have some science that
Speaker 1: will help with that. I'm Emmilinagaski and this is the
Speaker 1: Come as you Are podcast where our I answer questions
Speaker 1: about sex with science. In this episode, I'm going to
Speaker 1: explain another mind blowing fundamental lesson in the science of
Speaker 1: sex desire. What even is it? How does it actually work?
Speaker 1: Why does it sometimes change? And why does it sometimes
Speaker 1: feel like we lose touch with it? It turns out
Speaker 1: the narrative we've been sold from TV and movies where
Speaker 1: two people are suddenly struck with a spontaneous and simultaneous
Speaker 1: desire for sex out of the blue. It doesn't usually
Speaker 1: work that way, particularly in a long term relationships. I mean, yes,
Speaker 1: it absolutely is one of the normal, healthy ways to
Speaker 1: sperience sexual desire. But there is another very common way
Speaker 1: to experience desire that we don't usually see in the media.
Speaker 1: It's called responsive desire. And when I describe how it
Speaker 1: works in relationships, it might sound really familiar. Let's get
Speaker 1: into the science of how and when we feel sexual
Speaker 1: desire and when we don't. I'm answering a listener question
Speaker 1: today and as always bringing me today's listener question is
Speaker 1: my producer, mo Hi, mo Hey, Emily. How are you doing?
Speaker 1: How's it going? I'm doing great? How are you you know?
Speaker 1: I'm doing all right. How are you feeling now that
Speaker 1: the show is out in the world where a few
Speaker 1: episodes in? How does it feel? You know? It's when
Speaker 1: you write a book, like you spend all this time
Speaker 1: by yourself with your editor, just like writing a book,
Speaker 1: and then it's out there and people can read it,
Speaker 1: and that's sort of it. But with a podcast. You
Speaker 1: put it out there and people can respond, and then
Speaker 1: you make some more podcasts and people can respond. So
Speaker 1: it's a dynamic and I'm enjoying that. Yeah, it's like
Speaker 1: more of a conversation with the listeners. Yeah, it reminds
Speaker 1: me of when I wrote a blog. I often say
Speaker 1: we're like in the blog spot era of podcasting, like
Speaker 1: we're in such a wild West era that it feels
Speaker 1: like we're in blog spotting. Yeah. Well, so I chose
Speaker 1: today's question because we've gotten a lot of questions like
Speaker 1: this one, and basically I'm calling it that I want
Speaker 1: to want it question, Like, ah, I wish that I
Speaker 1: had more desire for my partner. I really love being
Speaker 1: in the relationship. I'm happy with them. I want to
Speaker 1: be with them long term, but right I just don't
Speaker 1: want it like I used to. And that is a
Speaker 1: question that I have seen come up again and again
Speaker 1: in the listener mailbox. So I wanted to get your
Speaker 1: take on this one, like really early on in this series,
Speaker 1: because whether someone's experiencing it right now or not, it
Speaker 1: is the kind of question that I think a lot
Speaker 1: of us who are in long term sexual romantic relationships
Speaker 1: will encounter yes, any relationship that lasts long enough, you're
Speaker 1: going to experience this. Okay, So are you ready to
Speaker 1: hear the full question? Yes, Hi, Emily. My name is Taylor.
Speaker 1: I use they then pronouns, and I have a question
Speaker 1: about sex, drive or libido. So I have this incredible,
Speaker 1: beautiful girlfriend, and when we first met, we had this
Speaker 1: extreme sexual attraction. We wanted to have sex all the time.
Speaker 1: We couldn't keep our hands off each other. But since
Speaker 1: we moved in together this year, I'm just wanting sex less.
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is. I know my feelings
Speaker 1: for her haven't changed. I still feel attracted to her,
Speaker 1: so that's not the problem. Maybe it's that I'm stressed
Speaker 1: out about money and my job, but I still want
Speaker 1: to want it. It's not that I don't want her.
Speaker 1: I do intellectually, but I don't know if I'm just
Speaker 1: having trouble getting mysel excited about sex and my partner
Speaker 1: wants to have it and it's making both of us sad.
Speaker 1: So I don't know what's wrong with me? Is there
Speaker 1: something I can do about it? Thanks? Oh, Taylor, there's
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with you, and yes there is things you
Speaker 1: can do about it. This is a perfect question. Honestly,
Speaker 1: the book I'm working on right now about sex and
Speaker 1: long term relationships was born out of me having the
Speaker 1: same experience. Really, yeah, you're this is very much on
Speaker 1: the top of your mind. Absolutely. I think about it
Speaker 1: all the time, and I have done a lot of
Speaker 1: work to understand what people can do when they find
Speaker 1: themselves in this situation in order to make their sex
Speaker 1: lives still just as delightful as when they were super
Speaker 1: hot and heavy horny for each other. So in our
Speaker 1: second episode, Emily, you talked about the science of horniness,
Speaker 1: and you talked about the dual control model, which is
Speaker 1: like the one oh one of how sexual response works.
Speaker 1: We have the breaks and the accelerator and those all
Speaker 1: come together in a unique way inside all of us
Speaker 1: to form our sexual response. But today we're talking about
Speaker 1: the experience of desire. Can you talk about the difference
Speaker 1: between horniness and desire? Like, why do you think of
Speaker 1: these as separate categories and what's the difference? Well, ultimately,
Speaker 1: any question about sexual response is a question about the
Speaker 1: dual control model. But when researchers and therapists study and
Speaker 1: talk about sexual response, they break it down into four pieces.
Speaker 1: One is the arousal piece, which is the activation of
Speaker 1: your brain's accelerator and the deactivation of the breaks, which
Speaker 1: in turn results in the activation of the body. Right,
Speaker 1: that's the arousal process. There's orgasm, which is the specific
Speaker 1: experience of releasing all the tension in your body that's
Speaker 1: been generated by that arousal. There's pleasure, which is the
Speaker 1: foundation of everything. It's your brain's interpretation of your body
Speaker 1: sensations as positive. Right. So tickling the one we talk
Speaker 1: about all the time. Pleasure is when tickling feels good
Speaker 1: versus if someone tickles you and it doesn't feel good.
Speaker 1: It's the same sensation, but it doesn't feel good because
Speaker 1: the context is different. That's the science of the pleasure part.
Speaker 1: And then there's desire. So where pleasure is about liking
Speaker 1: a sensation, desire is about wanting those sensations. So all
Speaker 1: four pieces arousal, orgasm, pleasure, desire, these are all parts
Speaker 1: of the sexual response. And you know what the one
Speaker 1: people worry about the most desire. It is the number
Speaker 1: one reason why couples seek sex therapy is for a
Speaker 1: desire differential or a change in desire. Interesting, So, what
Speaker 1: science do we need to understand about desire. To answer
Speaker 1: Taylor's question, Okay, so the story we are usually told
Speaker 1: about desire, The way I thought desire worked until I
Speaker 1: got to grad school is that it just arrives out
Speaker 1: of the blue, spontaneous. Here walking down the street, and
Speaker 1: suddenly you just are interested in sex, or you're thinking
Speaker 1: about sex and you would like to have some sex,
Speaker 1: and you go home to your partner and you really
Speaker 1: hope that your partner also is interested in some sex.
Speaker 1: Right now, that's spontaneous desire. It is absolutely one of
Speaker 1: the normal, healthy ways to experience desire. And there is
Speaker 1: another normal, healthy way to experience desire. It's called responsive desire.
Speaker 1: Where that spontaneous desire emerges in anticipation of the pleasure
Speaker 1: of sex. Responsive desire emerges in response to the pleasure
Speaker 1: of sex. So instead of it being just like, out
Speaker 1: of the blue, woo, I would like sex now, it's
Speaker 1: that you show up regardless of how you feel in
Speaker 1: the moment. There's a quick analogy that I learned from
Speaker 1: a sex therapist named Christine Hyde. She talking to her clients, says,
Speaker 1: if you imagine your best friend invite you to a party,
Speaker 1: of course you say yes because it's your best friend
Speaker 1: and a party. But you know, as that data approaches,
Speaker 1: you start going, I don't know how to find childcare.
Speaker 1: Traffic is going to be heavy. I'm not really going
Speaker 1: to want to put on my party clothes at the
Speaker 1: end of a long week. But you know what you
Speaker 1: said you would go, So you put on your party clothes,
Speaker 1: you drive through the traffic, and you show up to
Speaker 1: the party. And what happens then a lot of the
Speaker 1: time you have fun at the party right, And if
Speaker 1: you are having fun at the party, you are doing
Speaker 1: it right. That's responsive desire and it's normal, and that
Speaker 1: is the way a lot of couples and long term
Speaker 1: relationships structure their whole sex lives. Most of the time,
Speaker 1: you were not doing it wrong if that's how you're
Speaker 1: doing it, as long as you like what is happening.
Speaker 1: And the caveat here is that if you show up
Speaker 1: to the party and it is not fun, there is
Speaker 1: no amount of looking forward to that party that's going
Speaker 1: to make that party worth going to. That makes a
Speaker 1: lot of sense. Also been to that party metaphorically and literally.
Speaker 1: And can you just describe how is responsive desire working
Speaker 1: in the brain, Like what is going on in the
Speaker 1: brain during responsive and spontaneous desire. Yeah, so the cool
Speaker 1: thing is the same thing is happening fundamentally in both
Speaker 1: spontaneous and responsive desire. There's very little difference. So your
Speaker 1: breaks are noticing all the good reasons not to be
Speaker 1: turned on, and they're staying on, or else they're turning
Speaker 1: off because those reasons are going away. And your accelerator
Speaker 1: is noticing all the sex related stimuli in the environment
Speaker 1: and is either sending a turn on signal or not.
Speaker 1: And as your context changes, the amount of stimulation to
Speaker 1: those brain functions changes, and at a certain point, the
Speaker 1: balance of accelerator being hit and breaks releasing crosses a
Speaker 1: threshold into your awareness of being motivated to pursue sex.
Speaker 1: Huh does that make sense. It's a simple sort of
Speaker 1: like addition subtraction problem, like turn on more of the ons,
Speaker 1: turn off more of the offs, and eventually you get
Speaker 1: to a point when you're like, oh, would be very
Speaker 1: interested in having sex. The only difference between spontaneous versus
Speaker 1: responsive desire is the point at which you get there
Speaker 1: is a lower level of stimulation for spontaneous desire. You're
Speaker 1: interested in sex before you're aware of being aroused and
Speaker 1: before you're actually in a sexy scenario. Whereas responsive desire
Speaker 1: it takes more explicit stimulation, more explicit arousal, before you
Speaker 1: have that awareness of like, oh oh yes, please this
Speaker 1: m okay. Maybe I'm like slow just to get this concept.
Speaker 1: But I need to stop for a clarification about responsive desire,
Speaker 1: because every time you're talking about it responsive desire starting
Speaker 1: in response to pleasure. I basically imagine that somebody doesn't
Speaker 1: have any desire until they actually start having sex, and
Speaker 1: then they're like, oh now I want it. Now I'm
Speaker 1: feeling into it, like now that I'm being literally genitally stimulated,
Speaker 1: now I'm feeling desire, Like that's what I hear sometimes
Speaker 1: when you're describing responsive desire. But I feel like that
Speaker 1: can't be right. Okay, yeah, no, it can't be right.
Speaker 1: And it's so important that you asked that question. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: and okay, I'm going to tell you a story about
Speaker 1: a couple that I spoke with. Both of them had PhDs.
Speaker 1: Both of them had read the book. They understood everything
Speaker 1: that I had written. Unfortunately, Okay, so it's the pandemic.
Speaker 1: They have a young child, married husband and wife two
Speaker 1: sis gender heterosexual people. And she puts the child to bed.
Speaker 1: She comes and sits down next to him on the
Speaker 1: couch and they're gonna watch something they have both read,
Speaker 1: Come as you are. He has read about responsive desire.
Speaker 1: And he literally puts his hand down her pants. Oh,
Speaker 1: when she has just finished a long day and put
Speaker 1: their child to bed, He's like right to the clit.
Speaker 1: And she's like, no, no, thank you, I don't want
Speaker 1: this right now. And he says, he says, oh gosh,
Speaker 1: he says, but you will. Oh no, okay, right, See
Speaker 1: that is my concern. Yeah. I was mortified when I
Speaker 1: heard the story, and I clarified, like, pleasure first, not
Speaker 1: just stimulation. Pleasure first. The advice is not to just
Speaker 1: like go do it. It's to create a context where
Speaker 1: it is easy for your brain to interpret these sensations
Speaker 1: as pleasurable. Create a context that makes pleasure easy, right right.
Speaker 1: So my problem in understanding this is that my definition
Speaker 1: of pleasure is so narrow that it's like clatoral stimulation.
Speaker 1: But actually I need to like build out the whole
Speaker 1: world of what could be pleasurable, including just like a
Speaker 1: good conversation, etc. Yeah. No, I will never give the
Speaker 1: advice to just do it. The advice is to create
Speaker 1: a context that makes pleasure easy. Yeah. Context, Context is
Speaker 1: one of your favorite things to talk about. I'm learning
Speaker 1: and I feel like so much of good sex is
Speaker 1: about setting the right context. Okay, I want to take
Speaker 1: a break, and when we get back, I want to
Speaker 1: talk about how Taylor and all of us can make
Speaker 1: contexts in our lives that make pleasure easy. So, Emily,
Speaker 1: we are talking today about a I want to want
Speaker 1: my partner question about a desire differential between a couple
Speaker 1: that seems to be really happy, really in love, they
Speaker 1: want to be together for a long time, but they're
Speaker 1: experiencing a change in the frequency of their sex. Yeah,
Speaker 1: where Taylor, who called into the hotline, is not feeling
Speaker 1: that super out of the blue, spontaneous desire like they
Speaker 1: used to when they first started dating their girlfriend. So
Speaker 1: I know this question is one that you get maybe
Speaker 1: more than any other as a sex educator. And because
Speaker 1: of that, I followed up with Taylor and I talk
Speaker 1: to them about what contexts get them in the mood.
Speaker 1: I was asking, what do you and your partner do
Speaker 1: that does make you feel really good and comfortable and
Speaker 1: is pleasurable, not necessarily sexually, And they said they really
Speaker 1: liked laying in bed together with their girlfriend and just
Speaker 1: like talking about their day and getting words of affirmation
Speaker 1: like I'm really proud of you. I think you're doing great,
Speaker 1: I am so happy to be with you. You're a
Speaker 1: great partner. Like they almost feel like they need that
Speaker 1: before they can get turned on. There's another sex therapist
Speaker 1: named Petro Zebroff who studies initiation styles essentially, and it
Speaker 1: sounds like Taylor is a sentimental, emotional style. They want
Speaker 1: to feel that sense of connection with the partner, being
Speaker 1: really present and listening to each other with your hearts
Speaker 1: and affirming your pleasure in being in the relationship. That's
Speaker 1: not everyone's style, but that absolutely is one of the
Speaker 1: styles that people prefer in sexual initiation. You're telling me,
Speaker 1: you know how there's like love languages, there's like an
Speaker 1: initiation style of like you're one of these four styles.
Speaker 1: That's a real thing. Yeah, So the research has been
Speaker 1: evolving over the years. I actually included it in the
Speaker 1: Come as you Are workbook when it was seven styles,
Speaker 1: but in the following years it has simplified down to
Speaker 1: four different styles. I'm sure we can put the questionnaire
Speaker 1: into the show notes. It's the questionnaire for turn on
Speaker 1: initiation preference or q TIP, which is just as adorable
Speaker 1: as it could possibly be. And that sentimental emotional style
Speaker 1: is one of them. Another is sensation style, where this
Speaker 1: person might want you to just go for the genitals,
Speaker 1: or they might want to be touched somewhere else a
Speaker 1: shoulder rub or an embrace or a kiss. We're experiencing
Speaker 1: that physical sensation is the way to open the door
Speaker 1: for them. It's actually really promising news to hear that
Speaker 1: Taylor might be in that sentimental emotional style, because those
Speaker 1: folks transition really well to embracing responsive desire, creating a
Speaker 1: context that makes pleasure easy, recognizing that there is this
Speaker 1: intermediate step between not having sex and having sex. One
Speaker 1: of the places people get stuck with normalizing, accepting, embracing
Speaker 1: responsive desire in their lives is that they feel like, oh,
Speaker 1: but it should be easy. I shouldn't have to put
Speaker 1: in all this work. There shouldn't be like a transition period.
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have to work so hard for it, you know.
Speaker 1: But if you think about what was happening in a
Speaker 1: dating relationship, like don't you spend time planning and transitioning
Speaker 1: into that sexy state of mind. Don't you spend time
Speaker 1: grooming your body to get ready. Don't you spend time
Speaker 1: planning the date and fantasizing about it and imagining what's
Speaker 1: going to happen. Don't you spend time texting each other
Speaker 1: back and forth all kinds of things all day about
Speaker 1: how much you're looking forward to things. It's really not
Speaker 1: more work to understand the things that come before the
Speaker 1: sex right in order to create a context that makes
Speaker 1: the sex worth wanting. So I know people love black
Speaker 1: and white thinking about identity categories. So I think when
Speaker 1: people hear you talking about responsive and spontaneous desire and saying, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm a responsive desire person, my partner is a spontaneous
Speaker 1: desire person, and sort of putting themselves in that box
Speaker 1: and treating their relationship like they are a responsive desire person.
Speaker 1: Does it work like that for some people? It is?
Speaker 1: And oh do people love to be in a category.
Speaker 1: And it is the case that there are some people
Speaker 1: who experience exclusively responsive desire in their lives and people
Speaker 1: who experience exclusively spontaneous desire in their lives, But most
Speaker 1: of us it's not about a trade that's stable like
Speaker 1: introversion extraversion. That is actually a trait that's pretty stable
Speaker 1: across your lifetime, right, But desire style isn't like that.
Speaker 1: It is very responsive to context. So there will be
Speaker 1: some contexts. For example, in the early hot and heavy,
Speaker 1: fallen in love stage of a relationship, you're in the
Speaker 1: kitchen cooking dinner and your partner comes over and kisses
Speaker 1: you in some certain special place, and your knees melt
Speaker 1: and you let dinner burn because all it took was
Speaker 1: that to get you going. Ten years later and maybe
Speaker 1: some kids, you're in the same kitchen cooking the same meal,
Speaker 1: and the same partner comes in and kisses you in
Speaker 1: the same certain special way, and your response is not
Speaker 1: knees melting, let dinner burn, It is could you please
Speaker 1: go set the table? Nothing is wrong there, nobody got broken,
Speaker 1: it's just the context is different. So you're saying, like,
Speaker 1: the same people that experience spontaneous desire in the past
Speaker 1: could experience sponsive desire nail. And it doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: they have gotten worse at connecting or worse at having sex,
Speaker 1: or that their sexual connection has degraded in some way. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: it's just that the contact and when I say context,
Speaker 1: I'm talking both about your external circumstances and your internal state.
Speaker 1: Like when you're in that like early new relationship energy situation,
Speaker 1: your brain's emotional systems are firing on all cylinders and
Speaker 1: the sparks of that, it's easy for them to catch
Speaker 1: over into sexuality and make it easy to experience what
Speaker 1: feels like spontaneous desire for sex when you've been in
Speaker 1: a relationship for a long time. It is normal that
Speaker 1: that like huge fire burns down to a smolder and
Speaker 1: it takes a little stoking of the fire to let
Speaker 1: it burst into flame. There's nothing wrong with that. Yes,
Speaker 1: And on that note, I would love to get to
Speaker 1: some specific practical tips for Taylor. I want to break
Speaker 1: down Taylor's question further and make sure that when they
Speaker 1: hear this episode they're satisfied with like real take home
Speaker 1: assignments that they can YEA, they know what to do. Yes,
Speaker 1: they know what to do, and it's not just like
Speaker 1: a theoretical change. I think we've already talked about the
Speaker 1: great framework of responsive desire and also initiation styles, which
Speaker 1: I think is so interesting and seems like they're an emotional,
Speaker 1: sentimental initiation style person. So let's break down some specific
Speaker 1: parts of the question that we heard, and I want
Speaker 1: to just play it again for you so we can
Speaker 1: talk about these specifics. When we first met, we had
Speaker 1: this extreme sexual attraction. We wanted to have sex all
Speaker 1: the time. We couldn't keep our hands off each other.
Speaker 1: But since we moved in together this year, I'm just
Speaker 1: wanting sex less. I don't know what it is. I
Speaker 1: know my feelings for her haven't changed. I still feel
Speaker 1: attracted to her, so that's not the problem. Maybe it's
Speaker 1: that I'm stressed out about any and my job, but
Speaker 1: I still want to want it. It's not that I
Speaker 1: don't want her. I do intellectually. So the first thing
Speaker 1: that has changed in the context is that Taylor is
Speaker 1: feeling critical of their own sexual desire. There are also
Speaker 1: a couple of other explicit context changes that we know
Speaker 1: could potentially be changing the response of the accelerator. In
Speaker 1: the breaks, there's a stress about money and jobs. Do
Speaker 1: we think that could possibly be hitting the brakes? Yeah? Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: So stress is a physiological response. Is not like just stress,
Speaker 1: it's like an idea. It's a physical response that happens
Speaker 1: in your body. The fight or flight response is there
Speaker 1: to help us survive something like being chased by a lion,
Speaker 1: and for a lot of us, eighty to ninety percent
Speaker 1: of people, stress can really hit the brakes because if
Speaker 1: you're being chased by a lion, is that a good
Speaker 1: time to decide to have sex? Not so much? Right right.
Speaker 1: A second thing that changed is that they moved in together.
Speaker 1: Relationship transitions are significant and have a lot of meaning.
Speaker 1: So now their relationship is happening in a context where
Speaker 1: they're sharing householding responsibilities. Maybe it does not enhance their
Speaker 1: sense of erotic connection with their partner to need their
Speaker 1: partner to clean the toilet because it's their turn, or
Speaker 1: whose job is it to take out the recycling this week?
Speaker 1: Those kinds of negotiations may not necessarily enhance spontaneous desire
Speaker 1: for someone. This makes so much sense because when I
Speaker 1: was following up with Taylor, they said, you know, in
Speaker 1: my early relationship, we would text, you know, we basically
Speaker 1: had a hook up relationship, and I would text her
Speaker 1: and be like, do you want to meet up later?
Speaker 1: You know winky face, and she would be like yes,
Speaker 1: And as soon as they saw each other, like Taylor
Speaker 1: would go over to her apartment and as soon as
Speaker 1: they saw each other, it was like hot and heavy.
Speaker 1: And then as they have gotten to be more of
Speaker 1: a partnered couple and like doing life together and moving
Speaker 1: in together, there's less of that every time I see you,
Speaker 1: we're going to have sex energy, and it's more of
Speaker 1: like we gotta take care of the car today and
Speaker 1: we have to bring the dog todaycare except somebody has
Speaker 1: to do the dishes. Yeah, the context changed. The context changed, okay,
Speaker 1: And it is so easy because we have all been
Speaker 1: trained to think that spontaneous desire is the normal, good desire,
Speaker 1: and we like it because it's fun and it's easy.
Speaker 1: We think that it is the right way. When you
Speaker 1: ask where did that go? Under that like where did
Speaker 1: that go? Is like why am I broken? Now? And
Speaker 1: no one is broken. Nothing is wrong. This is just
Speaker 1: a different context, and these individual's brains happen to be
Speaker 1: wired in a way such that when they're living together,
Speaker 1: the desire shifts into a more responsive style where it
Speaker 1: takes intentional effort to create the hot and heavy fallen
Speaker 1: in love. You had also mentioned self criticism. Yes, and
Speaker 1: I had noticed that when I was first hearing their question,
Speaker 1: what do you mean by that? Yeah, they end the
Speaker 1: question with I don't know what's wrong with me, and
Speaker 1: I just want to like a hug tailor and be like,
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with you. You are totally fine. But
Speaker 1: self criticism that like worry that you might be broken.
Speaker 1: Is that going to activate the accelerator or is that
Speaker 1: self critical thought gonna hit the brakes. It's like you're
Speaker 1: being chased by the lion, but the lion is your
Speaker 1: own thoughts. Oh God Jesus, that's not going to make
Speaker 1: it easier to want and like the sex. It's available
Speaker 1: to you, right right, So it is normal that your
Speaker 1: experience of desire has changed, and then you focus on pleasure.
Speaker 1: Do I like the sex that I am having the
Speaker 1: sex it's available to me? Do I know what the
Speaker 1: transition is like to get me out of my stressed,
Speaker 1: mundane state of mind into a sexy state of mind?
Speaker 1: Can I talk with my partner about the context that
Speaker 1: help with that transition for her? When you've got those
Speaker 1: kinds of conversations happening, you are opening up the door
Speaker 1: to the kind of erotic connection that just is not
Speaker 1: accessible with simple spontaneous out of the blue desire because
Speaker 1: you're collaborating to create something entirely individual and unique, which
Speaker 1: can carry you to places in your body and your
Speaker 1: emotions that you can't get from quick can't wait to
Speaker 1: fuck you. I love the idea of collaborating to create
Speaker 1: sex as a creative person. That makes me like, almost
Speaker 1: emotional about the idea of collaborating. Oh good, because I
Speaker 1: sometimes people are like, it's a whole lot of work,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, it's a hobby. It's something you do
Speaker 1: because you enjoy it. After the break, I'm going to
Speaker 1: give you a little spoiler, Emily blows my mind with
Speaker 1: a theory about why we are so obsessed with sexual desire,
Speaker 1: and she offers kind of an alternative for what we
Speaker 1: can focus on instead that might lead to better sex.
Speaker 1: All right, we're back. We're doing this thing. So Emily,
Speaker 1: I love that you're like breaking down all these potential
Speaker 1: things hitting the brakes in Taylor's question and maybe things
Speaker 1: getting in the way of them experiencing desire at all.
Speaker 1: But obviously, if you're in a stress about money or
Speaker 1: health or something like that, that's not just something that
Speaker 1: can just go away. So how do you deal with that?
Speaker 1: With that's just the state of your life right now.
Speaker 1: So the first simple solution is whatever else is happening
Speaker 1: in your life when you put your body in the
Speaker 1: bed with your partner, do you like it? If yes,
Speaker 1: you're all ready most of the way there. Now, there's
Speaker 1: other things that are less controllable, like the money part.
Speaker 1: Like if we could just have their business already be
Speaker 1: a massive success and they sell it and are a
Speaker 1: billionaire and they never have to worry about money ever. Again. Cool,
Speaker 1: But the reality is that most of us are going
Speaker 1: to stay stressed most of the time, and there are
Speaker 1: things you can do to reduce the stress even when
Speaker 1: your life stress or is still present. I know most
Speaker 1: of us are taught that the way to deal with
Speaker 1: the stress in your body is to deal with the
Speaker 1: stress or in the outside. That's not true. See chapter
Speaker 1: one of Burnout for that. But it is possible to
Speaker 1: process the stress and calm the central nervous system so
Speaker 1: that the body feels nice and relaxed and that stress
Speaker 1: is not hitting the brakes, which frees up the accelerator
Speaker 1: to do its job. Why do you think society values
Speaker 1: spontaneous desire so much more than responsive desire, like why
Speaker 1: has response, the experience of responsive desire been just erased. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's not a scientific answer that I can give you,
Speaker 1: but my opinion is obviously it's the patriarchy a little bit,
Speaker 1: which so that's for sure a part of it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But I think there's another level. I think we live
Speaker 1: in a culture that says that wanting sex is good
Speaker 1: as long as you don't want it too much, of course,
Speaker 1: and not wanting sex is bad, and it means you're
Speaker 1: a failure if you're not constantly ready for it. Like
Speaker 1: wop was a super hit and a great song, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but would people be as into a song that's just
Speaker 1: as much of a bop? Or what is it the
Speaker 1: kids saying about a good song? It's just as good
Speaker 1: as song, but the lyrics are like I am too
Speaker 1: damn tired, and that's okay, too right. I love that
Speaker 1: women can be confident about their sexuality, but I want
Speaker 1: a world where we can be just as confident about
Speaker 1: our sexuality when it does not conform to the dominant narratives.
Speaker 1: I think you're talking about a top a tired ass pussy, yeah,
Speaker 1: or a mop a menopausal ass pussy. Beautiful. But also
Speaker 1: I think it's capitalism. Right. We're encouraged to want things,
Speaker 1: to want all kinds of things, to want that new toy,
Speaker 1: to want the new brand, extension flavor of orioles. Right,
Speaker 1: we just you're supposed to want things. And if we
Speaker 1: pause in our wanting to enjoy, well, we have to
Speaker 1: experience pleasure, then we stop striving to get new stuff.
Speaker 1: And how can we take pleasure in what we already
Speaker 1: have in this economy? Get out there and want something
Speaker 1: you don't have. I think, just think how bizarre this is.
Speaker 1: We seem to define our sexual well being in terms
Speaker 1: of desire, right, in terms of how dissatisfied we are
Speaker 1: with the amount of sex we're having right now, right,
Speaker 1: because wanting is wanting something you don't have and maybe
Speaker 1: trying to get that thing, whereas liking sex is about
Speaker 1: liking what you have and enjoying that. And if we
Speaker 1: put pleasure instead of desire at the center of our
Speaker 1: definition of sexual well being, all the other pieces fall
Speaker 1: into place. We stop being dissatisfied and begin to enjoy
Speaker 1: the sex we are having. Holy shit, So you're basically
Speaker 1: saying our entire society, okay, let's blow my mind. Our
Speaker 1: entire society is set up to prioritize wanting over liking,
Speaker 1: because wanting is a functional capitalism, And so we're doing
Speaker 1: all this, We're putting all this priority on wanting stuff
Speaker 1: instead of liking what we already have. And that also
Speaker 1: has impacted our sex how we think about sex and desire.
Speaker 1: I think so. I can't prove it, but I think so.
Speaker 1: That's a really hot take, Emily Nagowski. I like that
Speaker 1: a lot. All right, Emily, let's end with a TLDR. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's do the recap. First of all, spontaneous desire emerges
Speaker 1: in anticipation of pleasure. Responsive desire emerges in response to pleasure.
Speaker 1: Both of these are normal, and most people experience both
Speaker 1: at different times in their lives. Neither is better than
Speaker 1: the other, but one is more reliably associated with a
Speaker 1: satisfying sex life in a long term relationship. Which desire
Speaker 1: style is more associated with a satisfying sex life and
Speaker 1: a long term relationship? Responsive desire is the one second
Speaker 1: thing to know. Judging your experience of responsive desire as
Speaker 1: inferior or a lot of work instead of normal and
Speaker 1: a fun hobby is a great way to hit the brakes.
Speaker 1: Judging responsive desire can even make it more difficult to
Speaker 1: want or like the sext you might otherwise be having.
Speaker 1: Whereas when you embrace responsive desire, you create an opportunity
Speaker 1: to enjoy the experience of creating a context that makes
Speaker 1: it easy to feel pleasure, and from pleasure, desire will follow.
Speaker 1: Three create that context, whether you put your body in
Speaker 1: the bed and let your skin touch your partner's skin,
Speaker 1: or you have that deeply connected conversation, or you put
Speaker 1: on your most enticing underpants and serve dinner that way.
Speaker 1: There is no right or wrong way to create a context.
Speaker 1: There's only pleasure with everyone's consent. And finally, for when
Speaker 1: you put pleasure at the center of your definition of
Speaker 1: sexual well being, desire will follow every time. Next week
Speaker 1: we are going to talk about, drum roll please, orgasms. Hmm.
Speaker 1: If this was Cosmo magazine, it would be the big
Speaker 1: O issue, the big oh show, Baby, We're doing it, okay.
Speaker 1: People love a conversation about orgasm. People love a science fact.
Speaker 1: Oh the science facts you have about orgasms. Emily, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna say one thing about the orgasm episodes. I always
Speaker 1: thought that there were different kinds of orgasms because some
Speaker 1: of them feel different, like you know, the internal vaginal orgasm,
Speaker 1: the clatoral orgasm, the ascasm, etc. But I learned in
Speaker 1: the next episode that there is only one kind of
Speaker 1: work as m Yeah. Come As You Are is a
Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries and Madison Wells. It's hosted by
Speaker 1: Emily Nagowski. You can find Emily on Instagram at e
Speaker 1: Nagowski and on Twitter at Emily Nagowski. You can also
Speaker 1: sign up for her newsletter at Emily Nagowski dot com,
Speaker 1: where she writes about everything from the clitteriest in your
Speaker 1: mind to orgasm after having hysterectomy. It's an incredible newsletter.
Speaker 1: Highly recommended. This show is co hosted and lead produced
Speaker 1: by me Mola Board. You can find me online at
Speaker 1: Mola Board and on TikTok at podcast dot slut, Sorry
Speaker 1: mom My. Co producer on this show is the fabulous
Speaker 1: Brittany Brown. Our editor is Kate Parkinson Morgan. Sound design
Speaker 1: and mix by Anne Pope. Executive producers are Mia LaBelle
Speaker 1: and Lee taal Mallad at Pushkin. Thanks to Heather Faine,
Speaker 1: Carly Migliori, Sophie Crane, Courtney Guarino, Jason Gambrel Julia Barton,
Speaker 1: John Schnars, and Jacob Weisberg at Madison Wells. Thanks to
Speaker 1: Kylie Williams, Elizabeth Goodstein and Gg Pritzker. Additional thanks to
Speaker 1: Rich Stevens, Lindsay Edgecombe, Frolick Media, and Peter Acker at
Speaker 1: Armadillo Audio Group. Original music for this series was composed
Speaker 1: by Ameliagosky and arranged and recorded by Alexandra Kalinovsky. Additional
Speaker 1: music from Epidemic Sound. You can find Pushkin on all
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Speaker 1: for our newsletter at pushkin dot Fm. If you love
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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you like to listen.
Speaker 1: Make sure you subscribe so you can get the next
Speaker 1: episode and learn about how a schasm isn't its own
Speaker 1: kind of orgasm? How is that? Emily? Do you like that?
Speaker 1: That was fully unnecessary and I'm here for it.