WEBVTT - The Tipping Point Revisited: Live with David Remnick 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:24.996 Pushkin. Hello, Hello Revisionist History listeners. This is Revenge of 0:00:25.036 --> 0:00:28.076 the Tipping Point month at Revisionist History, where we bring 0:00:28.116 --> 0:00:31.876 you stories and snippets in tantalizing tales from my new book, 0:00:32.396 --> 0:00:36.636 now available everywhere. And in this episode, we're bringing you 0:00:36.876 --> 0:00:40.116 the very first stop on my book tour, a conversation 0:00:40.236 --> 0:00:42.596 I had about my life and career with my old 0:00:42.596 --> 0:00:46.556 friend and former boss, David Remnick, editor of The New Yorker. 0:00:47.156 --> 0:00:49.516 We did this at the ninety second Street Why in 0:00:49.556 --> 0:00:52.716 New York City, my home away from home. I first 0:00:52.716 --> 0:00:55.236 met David almost forty years ago when he was a 0:00:55.276 --> 0:00:57.476 star at the Washington Post and I was a cub 0:00:57.516 --> 0:01:01.076 reporter who'd never written a newspaper story before. He's one 0:01:01.076 --> 0:01:03.596 of the people in the world who admired the most 0:01:03.916 --> 0:01:10.356 and our conversation was hilarious and fun. I hope you enjoy. 0:01:13.596 --> 0:01:14.316 It's been a while. 0:01:15.436 --> 0:01:16.596 Yes, yes, Malcolm. 0:01:16.596 --> 0:01:18.036 I have to tell you that the title of this 0:01:18.076 --> 0:01:21.796 book is so brilliant because it's it's like Revenge of 0:01:21.916 --> 0:01:22.556 King Kong. 0:01:22.676 --> 0:01:23.876 That's fantastic, And. 0:01:28.076 --> 0:01:31.636 And I have to say that one of my fondest 0:01:31.676 --> 0:01:33.916 memories at the New Yorker. 0:01:33.996 --> 0:01:36.476 And we'll go back even earlier in a moment. 0:01:36.556 --> 0:01:39.596 But at the New Yorker, you're telling me, you know, 0:01:39.676 --> 0:01:42.476 I've written two pieces now, the Cool Hunters and The 0:01:42.516 --> 0:01:43.156 Tipping Point. 0:01:43.236 --> 0:01:44.796 I have this idea for a book. 0:01:45.116 --> 0:01:49.076 You got an agent there, a doubtable, Tina Bennett, and 0:01:49.116 --> 0:01:50.716 you thought, you know, if I could make just a 0:01:50.716 --> 0:01:53.276 small amount of money, I could help out my family 0:01:53.476 --> 0:01:56.236 and and and let's just say, by the end of 0:01:56.236 --> 0:02:02.596 the day things things went well. And now twenty three 0:02:02.636 --> 0:02:06.116 million books later, things have gone really well. But what 0:02:06.276 --> 0:02:12.876 interests me most is not success material success, however deeply 0:02:13.036 --> 0:02:19.196 jealous I am. What interests me is how you invented 0:02:19.356 --> 0:02:22.476 yourself and what you do because we have a not 0:02:22.636 --> 0:02:23.836 dissimilar background. 0:02:24.236 --> 0:02:25.996 We were both at the Washington Post, both at. 0:02:25.956 --> 0:02:29.196 The New Yorker, and I couldn't have them in many ways, 0:02:29.196 --> 0:02:33.876 a more conventional approach to journalism. I wonder when you 0:02:33.916 --> 0:02:36.636 look back and you look you at you were at 0:02:36.676 --> 0:02:40.756 the Spectator, you were at the Post, and then you 0:02:40.796 --> 0:02:44.436 came to the New Yorker. But something happened at a 0:02:44.436 --> 0:02:50.196 certain point that a more conventional story was left behind, 0:02:51.116 --> 0:02:53.076 and even a humorous story like the one at the 0:02:53.156 --> 0:02:56.156 Washington Post, where you did you had a dog on death. 0:02:55.956 --> 0:02:56.596 Row and you try. 0:02:56.636 --> 0:02:57.876 Oh, that was my finest work. 0:02:57.996 --> 0:02:58.676 It really was. 0:02:58.916 --> 0:03:02.636 There was a dog in Bergen County. Well, should I 0:03:02.716 --> 0:03:03.636 back up and tell it story? 0:03:03.716 --> 0:03:04.196 Sure? 0:03:04.396 --> 0:03:07.956 I was. I became the New York correspondent for the 0:03:08.036 --> 0:03:12.116 Washington Post, and I, uh, they were uninterested in stories 0:03:12.156 --> 0:03:13.676 about New York at that point. I don't know why. 0:03:14.036 --> 0:03:16.156 And then I decided to make my life more interesting 0:03:16.556 --> 0:03:20.556 and maybe increase my profile in Washington. I would only 0:03:20.596 --> 0:03:25.236 write stories from Bergen County, my county. Yeah, because I 0:03:25.276 --> 0:03:27.916 decided that Bergen County was more interesting. I still believe 0:03:27.916 --> 0:03:31.636 this than New York City. So I just every day 0:03:31.676 --> 0:03:35.236 I would read the Bergen County Record Record, that's right. 0:03:35.836 --> 0:03:38.436 And I saw a little tiny mention one day of 0:03:39.076 --> 0:03:44.356 a dog, a Nikita named Tarro, who had been confined 0:03:44.396 --> 0:03:46.236 to doggy death row. Now, doggy death row in Bergen 0:03:46.276 --> 0:03:49.716 County is in Hackensack, where I was born. Were you 0:03:49.756 --> 0:03:52.196 born in Hackeen? You bet there is. You know what 0:03:52.716 --> 0:03:55.076 you think I'm joking when I say this doggy death row. No, 0:03:55.276 --> 0:03:58.236 it is actually doggy death row. It's a you can't 0:03:58.236 --> 0:04:00.636 get there. There's like a ravine and if you want 0:04:00.676 --> 0:04:02.236 to you're on the other side of the ravine, and 0:04:02.236 --> 0:04:05.236 then you see a long string of cages, and that 0:04:05.556 --> 0:04:07.836 there's all these dogs who are there pending tho'se all 0:04:07.916 --> 0:04:11.716 kinds of appeals, obviously, and if they lose their appeals 0:04:11.756 --> 0:04:15.036 then they are euthanized, and they're there for biting people. 0:04:15.556 --> 0:04:19.196 And Tarrow what had happened was he had been asleep 0:04:19.916 --> 0:04:24.036 and a child, the nephew of his owner, had stumbled 0:04:24.036 --> 0:04:25.276 across him in the middle of night on the way 0:04:25.276 --> 0:04:28.836 to the bathroom, and Tarrow had swiped the kid. This 0:04:28.916 --> 0:04:31.636 is now all these claims I'm making, was subject to 0:04:31.836 --> 0:04:37.516 a great amount of litigation, and had cut stipulated, had 0:04:37.556 --> 0:04:40.316 cut the kid's lip, and the result was like they're 0:04:40.356 --> 0:04:44.116 like seven different lawsuits had and I became convinced that 0:04:44.156 --> 0:04:48.836 Tarrow was wrongfully convicted, and I rode for the Washington Post. 0:04:49.476 --> 0:04:53.636 I mean it was thousands impressively long, and the editor 0:04:53.636 --> 0:04:55.196 of the Washing Post the next day after it ran, 0:04:55.356 --> 0:04:57.836 came out to me and said, that was a very 0:04:57.836 --> 0:05:01.676 good piece on Tarrow. It was, however, four times too long. 0:05:02.716 --> 0:05:04.116 Just the greatest thing that was ever said to me. 0:05:04.436 --> 0:05:07.036 And they were t shirts. The owner printed up t shirts, 0:05:07.636 --> 0:05:12.356 Free Tarrow. They were distributed and the story made the 0:05:13.316 --> 0:05:16.676 front pench of the New York Post. That's the goal, 0:05:17.116 --> 0:05:19.996 that was they the Post, The New York Posts picked 0:05:20.076 --> 0:05:20.716 up my story. 0:05:20.796 --> 0:05:21.396 That's the heaven. 0:05:21.476 --> 0:05:24.876 Yeah. So my point this, it was so my whole 0:05:24.916 --> 0:05:29.356 strategy of conceiving of Bergen County as being a kind 0:05:29.356 --> 0:05:31.236 of more fertile ground for. 0:05:31.636 --> 0:05:33.836 But this was this was rebellion. 0:05:34.556 --> 0:05:37.596 This was the beginning of the Gladwellian rebellion against the 0:05:37.676 --> 0:05:41.636 conventional which is that New York, as I believe, is 0:05:43.036 --> 0:05:46.036 not only the most interesting place, but on certain days 0:05:46.076 --> 0:05:47.276 the only interesting place. 0:05:49.596 --> 0:05:50.476 I'm a patriot. 0:05:53.436 --> 0:05:56.916 So but when when, at what point, as we know 0:05:56.956 --> 0:05:59.116 what a Malcolm Gladwell story is, the kind of sense 0:05:59.196 --> 0:06:05.076 of surprise, playing with ideas, exploring ideas, readings, social science, 0:06:05.116 --> 0:06:08.036 when when did that begin to click? 0:06:08.476 --> 0:06:11.636 I think it's starts to the Post. Because the problem, 0:06:12.676 --> 0:06:15.596 you know, whenever I would take a job, take a job, 0:06:15.916 --> 0:06:17.556 you have to kind of conceive of what is the 0:06:17.596 --> 0:06:19.956 problem that you're trying to solve on this job. And 0:06:19.996 --> 0:06:21.516 the problem that I had when I got to the 0:06:21.516 --> 0:06:25.196 Post was that I was twenty three and I had 0:06:25.236 --> 0:06:26.836 never written a newspaper story in my life. I had 0:06:26.836 --> 0:06:28.476 no idea how to do it, and I was surrounded 0:06:28.476 --> 0:06:32.396 by people who were the greatest, like yourself. Yeah, yeah, No. 0:06:32.756 --> 0:06:35.316 For those of you who don't know, David in his 0:06:35.436 --> 0:06:40.476 day was an absolutely legendary one of the great newspaper 0:06:40.476 --> 0:06:44.316 reporters of his generation. And they were they were Woodward, 0:06:45.156 --> 0:06:47.556 Bob Woodward was when I got to the watch host. 0:06:47.596 --> 0:06:50.756 I was in the business section. Woodward was there and 0:06:50.796 --> 0:06:54.276 I would watch and like Steve call Dret Steve Colho 0:06:55.316 --> 0:06:57.436 went on to become I mean, he's still around me. 0:06:57.436 --> 0:07:00.276 He ran the Columbia Jerones in school call when he 0:07:00.356 --> 0:07:02.076 I think you told me you pointed this out to me. 0:07:02.996 --> 0:07:05.556 When you know, when we had the push button phones, Yes, 0:07:05.996 --> 0:07:08.156 he would. You know, when I dial, it would be 0:07:08.196 --> 0:07:10.076 like do do do do? To call was like that's 0:07:10.116 --> 0:07:13.716 too slow, and he'd be like it was like a 0:07:13.756 --> 0:07:18.356 concert pianist, you to play a chord. Yeah, like the 0:07:18.356 --> 0:07:19.836 white He'd get the White House. It would be like 0:07:20.036 --> 0:07:22.516 it would take him like five seconds. I'm like that 0:07:22.636 --> 0:07:24.556 was all. And I had Mike, the legendary Mike iss 0:07:24.636 --> 0:07:27.236 to Off was next to me. Anyway, my point is 0:07:27.236 --> 0:07:29.636 I'm surrounded by all these people who were just better 0:07:29.756 --> 0:07:33.236 at daily journalism than I am. And so the problem was, 0:07:33.276 --> 0:07:35.636 how do you succeed in an environment whatever? And you 0:07:35.676 --> 0:07:38.556 succeed in that environment by being the thing that they 0:07:38.556 --> 0:07:42.956 are not. Right, everyone else was fast and fluid, So 0:07:42.996 --> 0:07:48.916 I decided I would be slow and weird right and then. 0:07:48.796 --> 0:07:53.756 And in fairness, the Washington Post did not prize weirdness. 0:07:55.836 --> 0:08:01.516 No, it did not, although the key was the key. 0:08:01.636 --> 0:08:02.916 I mean, the problem to be solved was how do 0:08:02.956 --> 0:08:06.116 you stand up in an environment where everyone around you 0:08:06.236 --> 0:08:08.756 is a total pro And so the to stand I 0:08:08.836 --> 0:08:11.196 get to what everyone else is not doing. So people 0:08:11.236 --> 0:08:14.676 around me were not writing five thousand wood stories on 0:08:15.076 --> 0:08:15.796 death rod dogs. 0:08:15.876 --> 0:08:16.516 No, no. 0:08:17.316 --> 0:08:20.156 And I remember the first time I wrote a story 0:08:20.156 --> 0:08:21.876 for The New Yorker. I was still at the Washington Post, 0:08:21.876 --> 0:08:23.756 and I was writing the talk to the Towns before 0:08:23.796 --> 0:08:25.756 they were signed, because that's so that way I could 0:08:26.156 --> 0:08:29.356 freelance without them knowing, so I would. I was writing 0:08:29.396 --> 0:08:31.916 these talk of the towns and I went to see 0:08:31.956 --> 0:08:33.796 Chip McGrath and. 0:08:33.836 --> 0:08:36.596 It was Tina brown'stupadias. 0:08:35.716 --> 0:08:39.196 And Chip said I had written this little talk of 0:08:39.236 --> 0:08:41.996 the town and he had some problem. He said, this 0:08:42.036 --> 0:08:43.596 is I want you to fix this problem? He said what, 0:08:44.276 --> 0:08:46.276 and so I said, I took it from him. I 0:08:46.316 --> 0:08:49.276 said okay, and I just wrote in the margins my fix. 0:08:49.756 --> 0:08:53.276 And I remember the looking at him and he was astonished. 0:08:53.516 --> 0:08:54.236 Vulgarian. 0:08:55.156 --> 0:08:57.276 It was vulgar. It was vulgar. He expected me to 0:08:57.276 --> 0:08:58.876 go home and come back in a week with the fire. 0:08:58.876 --> 0:09:01.356 I was like, no, I'll just just here do that. 0:09:01.476 --> 0:09:03.996 And it was that's at the New Yorker. You had 0:09:03.996 --> 0:09:06.316 to be that otherwise you if you wanted to be 0:09:06.356 --> 0:09:09.036 slow and thoughtful and weird, then you were competing with 0:09:09.236 --> 0:09:10.036 everyone else. 0:09:10.316 --> 0:09:11.556 Right. 0:09:11.716 --> 0:09:14.996 So I got there and I had to completely change. 0:09:15.716 --> 0:09:17.436 I had to work hard. I had to do all 0:09:17.476 --> 0:09:19.316 these things that I wasn't doing at the Washington Post. 0:09:21.476 --> 0:09:23.716 We'll be right back with more from my conversation with 0:09:23.796 --> 0:09:24.476 David Remnick. 0:09:34.876 --> 0:09:38.236 Which piece would you say set you off. 0:09:39.676 --> 0:09:44.276 Into You're now at this retrospective moment in your literary 0:09:44.356 --> 0:09:47.356 journalistic life where you're writing a piece that echoes your 0:09:47.356 --> 0:09:51.676 first book and you're no longer twenty three years old. Yeah, 0:09:52.116 --> 0:09:54.836 there must be some sense of self examination about that. 0:09:54.956 --> 0:09:58.996 It was probably a piece called the Cool Hunt, Remember 0:09:59.036 --> 0:10:04.276 the Coolhid, where I I don't know how I found 0:10:04.276 --> 0:10:05.836 a woman who's still a very good friend of mine, 0:10:05.916 --> 0:10:09.916 Did Gordon, who was a who went around whose business 0:10:09.996 --> 0:10:14.476 was going around America telling corporations what was cool T 0:10:14.636 --> 0:10:18.156 shirts and T shirts. And she was and still is 0:10:18.916 --> 0:10:21.716 absolutely hilarious. And she I wrote a piece about her 0:10:21.876 --> 0:10:25.396 about this idea that she would just go around and 0:10:25.396 --> 0:10:27.596 she would declare something cool and she would tell you 0:10:27.636 --> 0:10:29.036 what was and. 0:10:28.996 --> 0:10:30.996 Companies would hire her and hire her. 0:10:31.196 --> 0:10:34.556 But the whole point of that piece was the title 0:10:34.676 --> 0:10:37.836 the Cool Hunt. Once you had the title, just like 0:10:38.596 --> 0:10:40.836 it's like and there was you know, someone wanted to 0:10:40.836 --> 0:10:42.676 make a movie out of course never nothing ever came 0:10:42.716 --> 0:10:44.556 of it. But it was the first time I realized like, 0:10:44.556 --> 0:10:47.996 like that was you know, that kind of it was 0:10:48.036 --> 0:10:52.996 something else. There was something fun about taking being interested 0:10:52.996 --> 0:10:58.196 in pop culture for the New Yorker And did New. 0:10:58.156 --> 0:11:00.476 Yorker never have that kind of thing before? Now now 0:11:00.556 --> 0:11:03.756 this kind of story comes up. But was that an 0:11:03.796 --> 0:11:06.756 absence that you were feeling a vacuum? 0:11:06.796 --> 0:11:08.116 I didn't know anyone else in the New York It 0:11:08.116 --> 0:11:09.676 was the same. It was the same thing about trying 0:11:09.716 --> 0:11:12.276 to be different. So I didn't know of anyone else 0:11:12.276 --> 0:11:15.836 who was writing about DeeDee Gordon was not the typical 0:11:15.956 --> 0:11:18.796 subject of a New Yorker profile. No, I mean she 0:11:19.356 --> 0:11:23.796 you know, she was this kind of strange, hilarious. Uh. 0:11:24.556 --> 0:11:27.836 She had this crazy crush on Keanu Reeves. She was 0:11:27.876 --> 0:11:31.756 obsessed with Keanu Reeves. But I just thought, like, this 0:11:31.956 --> 0:11:34.676 is different in a way, this is this will stand 0:11:34.676 --> 0:11:37.316 outlets I needed you just needed to stand out. 0:11:37.396 --> 0:11:40.076 And then you did the tipping point, which you know 0:11:40.796 --> 0:11:45.556 is now associated with with with you. But as you've 0:11:45.996 --> 0:11:48.516 said repeatedly that you what you were doing is taking 0:11:48.716 --> 0:11:51.756 an idea that was very much in the air in 0:11:51.836 --> 0:11:56.876 sociological terms, uh, in terms of crime and much else. 0:11:57.236 --> 0:11:58.636 So what was the idea for the book? 0:11:58.676 --> 0:12:02.956 You had these two pieces, and how did you cast 0:12:02.996 --> 0:12:05.236 out what the what the book? What would what it 0:12:05.276 --> 0:12:07.836 would be, what shape it would take, what voice it 0:12:07.876 --> 0:12:08.236 would have? 0:12:09.756 --> 0:12:13.276 Well? I didn't. My agent came Tina, who I knew socially, 0:12:13.796 --> 0:12:15.596 and then she became an agent. She was just like 0:12:15.636 --> 0:12:18.316 a She worked in the admissions department of something. She'd 0:12:18.356 --> 0:12:21.756 been a graduate student, graduates in history. Yeah, and I 0:12:21.796 --> 0:12:23.716 just knew she's friends of friends, and then she became 0:12:23.716 --> 0:12:25.636 an agent. She said, can I be your agent? And 0:12:25.716 --> 0:12:28.236 I was like, I guess sure. And then she's now 0:12:28.276 --> 0:12:31.076 like the powerhouse, the powerhouses. But I knew her, and 0:12:31.116 --> 0:12:32.916 she said, you should write a book on this, and 0:12:32.996 --> 0:12:36.436 I but what is this the article the tipping point? 0:12:36.756 --> 0:12:39.556 Because people got really interested in it, and I started 0:12:39.596 --> 0:12:44.556 like someone in California flew me out to speak to 0:12:44.596 --> 0:12:47.436 their group about it. I remember thinking that was really 0:12:47.476 --> 0:12:50.716 weird that piece of New Yorker could so I thought, oh, 0:12:50.716 --> 0:12:53.316 maybe people are kind of into this, and Tina's like, yeah, 0:12:53.356 --> 0:12:56.636 you should do a book. So I knew the article 0:12:56.676 --> 0:12:58.596 in New Yorker was a chapter literally a chapter or 0:12:58.596 --> 0:12:59.796 a part of a chapter. And then I had to 0:12:59.876 --> 0:13:03.716 kind of improvise. I'd never written a book before, I 0:13:03.716 --> 0:13:04.276 had to kind of ye. 0:13:04.596 --> 0:13:08.716 But before we get to the way you reconsider the idea, 0:13:08.756 --> 0:13:11.196 because it's it's a very interesting bridge. I want to 0:13:11.236 --> 0:13:14.116 know it probably is not in the stack of cards here. 0:13:14.196 --> 0:13:17.596 I want to know how you invented yourself as a voice, 0:13:17.636 --> 0:13:19.556 and how naturally or not that came to me. 0:13:19.596 --> 0:13:20.756 Because I can. 0:13:20.956 --> 0:13:23.756 Read a paragraph of yours or a page of yours, 0:13:23.756 --> 0:13:26.156 and I know it right away that's you. There's a 0:13:26.156 --> 0:13:30.396 certain cadence, there's a certain way that a chapters end 0:13:31.116 --> 0:13:34.076 is there. There are moves that are as distinctive as 0:13:34.116 --> 0:13:38.356 somebody's you know, a piano player or an athlete. 0:13:38.516 --> 0:13:40.836 You you you know, you. 0:13:40.516 --> 0:13:44.436 Watch enough athletes, you you listen to enough music. There's 0:13:44.436 --> 0:13:47.476 a there's a Gladwell cadence. There's a Gladwell sense of humor. 0:13:48.116 --> 0:13:54.396 It's very, very distinctive. How self aware are you of it? 0:13:54.476 --> 0:13:56.196 How did it become itself? 0:13:58.236 --> 0:14:03.236 Well, it's hard to say, you know that. So I 0:14:03.276 --> 0:14:06.916 spent ten years at the Post, and there's something I 0:14:06.956 --> 0:14:10.036 think that's crucial, because what happens at at the Post 0:14:10.156 --> 0:14:13.916 is you learn how to write, meaning you learn how 0:14:13.956 --> 0:14:19.316 to write without fear and self consciousness. You're forced to 0:14:19.716 --> 0:14:22.476 remember by the end by time with the Washington Post. 0:14:22.796 --> 0:14:25.596 I remember when I was one of the last stories 0:14:25.636 --> 0:14:27.796 I wrote before I left for the New Yorker, there 0:14:27.836 --> 0:14:33.276 was a shooting on the l R R. And it 0:14:33.476 --> 0:14:36.516 happened at like four thirty in the afternoon, and back 0:14:36.516 --> 0:14:39.956 then the deadline was like six thirty. Yeah, So I 0:14:40.036 --> 0:14:41.996 get on the LA R and I go out to 0:14:42.036 --> 0:14:45.476 the scene. I get there at like five thirty and 0:14:46.036 --> 0:14:48.356 it's clearly a front page story, and they're like we 0:14:48.396 --> 0:14:48.916 need the story. 0:14:49.716 --> 0:14:51.956 And there's a shooting on the Long Island Railroad is 0:14:51.956 --> 0:14:54.396 a front page story in the in the Washington Post. 0:14:54.716 --> 0:14:57.636 It was a big shooting. Ah. It was like serious, 0:14:58.116 --> 0:15:00.916 it's gonna be well. I mean my assumption was I 0:15:01.036 --> 0:15:02.956 was telling them, of course, it's a front page story. 0:15:03.036 --> 0:15:07.396 That's the way it works. This is huge Apeah, someone 0:15:07.436 --> 0:15:10.236 got shot in New York City. Hold the front page. 0:15:10.476 --> 0:15:12.516 It's about the fold, you know, like the whole nine 0:15:12.596 --> 0:15:14.476 year You know this. You did this drill yourself many 0:15:14.476 --> 0:15:14.876 many times. 0:15:14.916 --> 0:15:15.516 Oh my god. 0:15:15.596 --> 0:15:18.396 Yeah, and you can do it from Moscow and you 0:15:18.436 --> 0:15:19.996 could use They all get nervous. 0:15:20.036 --> 0:15:24.756 Michael Spector used to his colleague ours was so good 0:15:24.796 --> 0:15:28.476 at this. He would do a kind of salami slicing 0:15:28.516 --> 0:15:31.036 where he'd take a story and do ten stories out 0:15:31.076 --> 0:15:32.516 of it, and each one would get on the front 0:15:32.516 --> 0:15:34.916 page because he would it would be like it's changed. 0:15:35.916 --> 0:15:38.556 I said, there's another wrinkle, and they're like, oh my god, 0:15:38.556 --> 0:15:40.196 And they put the first wrinkle on the plump page, 0:15:40.436 --> 0:15:43.276 the second wrinkle, and then there's day three. Oh my god. 0:15:44.476 --> 0:15:46.556 I go out there. I'm on the l A R. 0:15:46.716 --> 0:15:48.436 And I remember this is like this is when I 0:15:48.476 --> 0:15:53.756 was at the peak of my powers. So I interviewed 0:15:53.756 --> 0:15:57.116 all these people. I don't have time to don't there's 0:15:57.156 --> 0:16:00.556 no laptops back then, there's no like. And I did 0:16:00.556 --> 0:16:04.196 the thing which I had heard, you know, hard bitten newspaper. 0:16:05.676 --> 0:16:07.196 I picked up the phone and I called it in. 0:16:08.316 --> 0:16:12.396 I remember that feeling of like. I dictated a fifteen 0:16:12.476 --> 0:16:17.636 hundred word story into the phone to someone typing on 0:16:17.676 --> 0:16:21.156 the other end, straight through, and I was so pleased 0:16:21.196 --> 0:16:23.716 with myself. But I realized at the moment, I got 0:16:23.756 --> 0:16:27.276 nothing else to learn here. I have, they have. But 0:16:27.356 --> 0:16:30.356 that's what you learned like, and that you never lose 0:16:30.436 --> 0:16:33.996 that liquidity they hit so in no other was every bit, 0:16:34.236 --> 0:16:39.196 every every bad habit you have as a writer gets 0:16:39.356 --> 0:16:43.996 beaten out of you at a newspaper because it's just discipline. 0:16:44.036 --> 0:16:47.676 It's like boom, you know, tell the story, tell them 0:16:47.716 --> 0:16:48.676 in a way that's compelling. 0:16:49.076 --> 0:16:50.996 But something happens to your pros. And I will linger 0:16:51.036 --> 0:16:51.636 on this too long. 0:16:51.676 --> 0:16:55.796 But if I read Anthony Lane, for example, I can 0:16:55.836 --> 0:16:59.236 read him and I know that obviously Anthony is an 0:16:59.276 --> 0:17:04.836 incredibly airudite reader and writer, but I know that he 0:17:04.876 --> 0:17:08.436 did not get through life without reading PG. Woodhouse over 0:17:08.716 --> 0:17:14.196 and over again, that that informs this texture of this, 0:17:14.196 --> 0:17:17.556 this this tapestry. Who was that for you or was 0:17:17.596 --> 0:17:18.916 it just the newspaper business? 0:17:19.036 --> 0:17:20.876 Well no, no, no, So then I get to I 0:17:20.876 --> 0:17:22.356 don't think, I think I have a little bit of 0:17:22.356 --> 0:17:24.956 that the post, but it's but it's gets by putting it, 0:17:25.076 --> 0:17:27.716 you get you get pared down, you get rid of 0:17:27.716 --> 0:17:30.316 all your bad habits, and then you you have It's 0:17:30.396 --> 0:17:33.916 like a It's like you know, in playing a musical instrument, 0:17:34.356 --> 0:17:38.436 you spend the first ten years mastering the fundamentals, and 0:17:38.476 --> 0:17:42.116 then you're free to develop some kind of state. But 0:17:42.196 --> 0:17:44.796 you have to do the compulsory, you know, work to 0:17:44.836 --> 0:17:48.476 go to. And that's what the post is. You it 0:17:47.756 --> 0:17:52.236 it just you get reduced to the simplest essence of 0:17:52.516 --> 0:17:54.796 how to tell a story, and now you have the 0:17:54.836 --> 0:17:57.396 freedom and it come to the A lot of it 0:17:57.396 --> 0:18:01.316 was Adam Gopnik. So I was reading Gopnik long before 0:18:01.396 --> 0:18:05.916 I joined The New Yorker. And Gopnik is an exceedingly 0:18:06.756 --> 0:18:11.276 distinctive voice, right, and I mean a beautiful way of 0:18:11.316 --> 0:18:17.116 expressing himself. And and there's there's little kind of beautiful 0:18:17.116 --> 0:18:20.596 little frill. I mean, his his pro sings, his little 0:18:21.356 --> 0:18:25.036 choruses and frills, and it's just like and reading that, 0:18:25.636 --> 0:18:29.116 you know, he's I'm a I'm half a generation. 0:18:28.996 --> 0:18:31.836 But his move is he has many But what is 0:18:31.876 --> 0:18:36.436 the pop culture or boomer pop culture as he and 0:18:36.436 --> 0:18:40.396 I have discussed with reference when discussing something like you know, 0:18:40.636 --> 0:18:42.236 Nietzsche or the Friends. 0:18:41.996 --> 0:18:45.636 That's crucial. So this reminds me of something when I 0:18:45.676 --> 0:18:48.556 was very when I was in middle school, I met 0:18:49.836 --> 0:18:52.516 my lab partner was a guy named Terry Martin who 0:18:53.876 --> 0:18:57.556 no Urn Martin now a Soviet scholar, but he by 0:18:57.676 --> 0:19:00.476 happenstance in our little town in Canada. He was my 0:19:00.556 --> 0:19:05.556 lab partner. And Terry was an absolutely brilliant guy. And 0:19:06.756 --> 0:19:09.116 we were in biology together and we would do these 0:19:09.116 --> 0:19:12.036 experiments and he would always refuse to do the experiment 0:19:13.076 --> 0:19:15.236 the way we were supposed to do it, like as 0:19:15.276 --> 0:19:18.796 a matter of and I remember at first utterly horrified 0:19:18.836 --> 0:19:22.476 because we would never we couldn't finish anything, nothing was 0:19:22.476 --> 0:19:25.116 ever handed in. We would always get terrible grades. And 0:19:25.156 --> 0:19:30.716 then about like by kind of November of seventh grade, 0:19:31.756 --> 0:19:35.876 I realize it's genius because what he taught me was 0:19:35.916 --> 0:19:40.156 that you have the freedom. I mean, he wasn't being 0:19:40.196 --> 0:19:44.236 destructive or nihilistic. He was like saying, okay, so they're 0:19:44.236 --> 0:19:46.156 all going to do it this way, but we don't 0:19:46.236 --> 0:19:49.356 have to do it that way. We can there's another 0:19:49.356 --> 0:19:52.116 way to learn what's going on here. He was deeply interesting. 0:19:52.196 --> 0:19:54.796 This is what so interested me. So play is what 0:19:55.876 --> 0:19:59.876 you use the word. And I think it. 0:19:59.916 --> 0:20:04.116 Even caused some people alarm or or they're offended intellectually 0:20:04.356 --> 0:20:06.436 or otherwise, or they're jealous or whatever it is. 0:20:06.796 --> 0:20:08.956 You use the phrase playing. 0:20:08.916 --> 0:20:12.836 With ideas as if this is to them somehow irresponsible. 0:20:13.116 --> 0:20:15.036 What is playing with ideas mean? 0:20:15.196 --> 0:20:19.756 It begins with Terry in seventh grade because Terry and 0:20:19.756 --> 0:20:21.476 I then we developed this deep friendship and we would 0:20:21.516 --> 0:20:26.916 play endless games of monopoly, and we then deregulated monopoly, 0:20:27.836 --> 0:20:32.156 and his whole our idea was this, This is our 0:20:32.156 --> 0:20:34.356 idea was the rules? At that point we were like, well, 0:20:34.356 --> 0:20:37.556 the rules make no sense. Like the game as it's 0:20:37.596 --> 0:20:39.996 a brilliant game, but for example, why do you start 0:20:39.996 --> 0:20:42.756 with fifteen hundred dollars? That's that is by the way, 0:20:42.756 --> 0:20:46.196 if you're interested. This is the great flaw with monopoly, 0:20:46.716 --> 0:20:49.876 because the point of monopoly is when you're playing it, 0:20:49.876 --> 0:20:52.196 it should be a question of what can I afford? 0:20:52.356 --> 0:20:55.596 Should it should be a difficult question. I land on 0:20:56.476 --> 0:20:59.596 Marvin Gardens, Do I want to buy Marvin Gardens? Should 0:20:59.596 --> 0:21:01.316 be a question that you have to entertain and come 0:21:01.396 --> 0:21:04.116 up with a serious answer to. If you give each 0:21:04.156 --> 0:21:06.236 player fifteen hundred dollars to start and you land on 0:21:06.276 --> 0:21:10.196 Marvin Gardens, you just buy it. How was that interesting? 0:21:10.596 --> 0:21:11.236 That's absurd? 0:21:11.316 --> 0:21:13.076 So it's a little bit like inherited wealth. 0:21:13.356 --> 0:21:18.876 Yes, exactly. So we started with one dollar and what. 0:21:20.836 --> 0:21:22.236 Could you buy with one dollar? 0:21:22.396 --> 0:21:24.996 So you can't even get a slice of pizza much 0:21:25.396 --> 0:21:26.836 Marvin guard you. 0:21:26.876 --> 0:21:29.916 So the first ten minutes is just speed circling the 0:21:29.916 --> 0:21:33.876 board a kim living capital and then and then you, 0:21:34.156 --> 0:21:35.516 and then you. We have to come up with all 0:21:35.596 --> 0:21:39.556 kinds of ways to Basically, we created systems for creating leverage, 0:21:40.156 --> 0:21:40.356