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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hello, Hello Revisionist History listeners. This is Revenge of

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Speaker 1: the Tipping Point month at Revisionist History, where we bring

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Speaker 1: you stories and snippets in tantalizing tales from my new book,

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Speaker 1: now available everywhere. And in this episode, we're bringing you

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Speaker 1: the very first stop on my book tour, a conversation

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Speaker 1: I had about my life and career with my old

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Speaker 1: friend and former boss, David Remnick, editor of The New Yorker.

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Speaker 1: We did this at the ninety second Street Why in

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Speaker 1: New York City, my home away from home. I first

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Speaker 1: met David almost forty years ago when he was a

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Speaker 1: star at the Washington Post and I was a cub

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Speaker 1: reporter who'd never written a newspaper story before. He's one

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Speaker 1: of the people in the world who admired the most

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Speaker 1: and our conversation was hilarious and fun. I hope you enjoy.

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Speaker 2: It's been a while.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, Malcolm.

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Speaker 3: I have to tell you that the title of this

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Speaker 3: book is so brilliant because it's it's like Revenge of

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Speaker 3: King Kong.

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Speaker 2: That's fantastic, And.

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Speaker 3: And I have to say that one of my fondest

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Speaker 3: memories at the New Yorker.

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Speaker 2: And we'll go back even earlier in a moment.

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Speaker 3: But at the New Yorker, you're telling me, you know,

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Speaker 3: I've written two pieces now, the Cool Hunters and The

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Speaker 3: Tipping Point.

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Speaker 2: I have this idea for a book.

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Speaker 3: You got an agent there, a doubtable, Tina Bennett, and

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Speaker 3: you thought, you know, if I could make just a

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Speaker 3: small amount of money, I could help out my family

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Speaker 3: and and and let's just say, by the end of

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Speaker 3: the day things things went well. And now twenty three

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Speaker 3: million books later, things have gone really well. But what

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Speaker 3: interests me most is not success material success, however deeply

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Speaker 3: jealous I am. What interests me is how you invented

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Speaker 3: yourself and what you do because we have a not

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Speaker 3: dissimilar background.

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Speaker 2: We were both at the Washington Post, both at.

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Speaker 3: The New Yorker, and I couldn't have them in many ways,

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Speaker 3: a more conventional approach to journalism. I wonder when you

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Speaker 3: look back and you look you at you were at

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Speaker 3: the Spectator, you were at the Post, and then you

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Speaker 3: came to the New Yorker. But something happened at a

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Speaker 3: certain point that a more conventional story was left behind,

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Speaker 3: and even a humorous story like the one at the

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Speaker 3: Washington Post, where you did you had a dog on death.

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Speaker 2: Row and you try.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that was my finest work.

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Speaker 2: It really was.

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Speaker 1: There was a dog in Bergen County. Well, should I

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Speaker 1: back up and tell it story?

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Speaker 2: Sure?

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Speaker 1: I was. I became the New York correspondent for the

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Speaker 1: Washington Post, and I, uh, they were uninterested in stories

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Speaker 1: about New York at that point. I don't know why.

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Speaker 1: And then I decided to make my life more interesting

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Speaker 1: and maybe increase my profile in Washington. I would only

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Speaker 1: write stories from Bergen County, my county. Yeah, because I

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Speaker 1: decided that Bergen County was more interesting. I still believe

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Speaker 1: this than New York City. So I just every day

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Speaker 1: I would read the Bergen County Record Record, that's right.

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Speaker 1: And I saw a little tiny mention one day of

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Speaker 1: a dog, a Nikita named Tarro, who had been confined

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Speaker 1: to doggy death row. Now, doggy death row in Bergen

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Speaker 1: County is in Hackensack, where I was born. Were you

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Speaker 1: born in Hackeen? You bet there is. You know what

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Speaker 1: you think I'm joking when I say this doggy death row. No,

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Speaker 1: it is actually doggy death row. It's a you can't

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Speaker 1: get there. There's like a ravine and if you want

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Speaker 1: to you're on the other side of the ravine, and

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Speaker 1: then you see a long string of cages, and that

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Speaker 1: there's all these dogs who are there pending tho'se all

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Speaker 1: kinds of appeals, obviously, and if they lose their appeals

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Speaker 1: then they are euthanized, and they're there for biting people.

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Speaker 1: And Tarrow what had happened was he had been asleep

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Speaker 1: and a child, the nephew of his owner, had stumbled

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Speaker 1: across him in the middle of night on the way

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Speaker 1: to the bathroom, and Tarrow had swiped the kid. This

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Speaker 1: is now all these claims I'm making, was subject to

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Speaker 1: a great amount of litigation, and had cut stipulated, had

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Speaker 1: cut the kid's lip, and the result was like they're

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Speaker 1: like seven different lawsuits had and I became convinced that

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Speaker 1: Tarrow was wrongfully convicted, and I rode for the Washington Post.

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Speaker 1: I mean it was thousands impressively long, and the editor

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Speaker 1: of the Washing Post the next day after it ran,

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Speaker 1: came out to me and said, that was a very

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Speaker 1: good piece on Tarrow. It was, however, four times too long.

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Speaker 1: Just the greatest thing that was ever said to me.

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Speaker 1: And they were t shirts. The owner printed up t shirts,

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Speaker 1: Free Tarrow. They were distributed and the story made the

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Speaker 1: front pench of the New York Post. That's the goal,

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Speaker 1: that was they the Post, The New York Posts picked

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Speaker 1: up my story.

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Speaker 2: That's the heaven.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So my point this, it was so my whole

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Speaker 1: strategy of conceiving of Bergen County as being a kind

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Speaker 1: of more fertile ground for.

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Speaker 2: But this was this was rebellion.

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Speaker 3: This was the beginning of the Gladwellian rebellion against the

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Speaker 3: conventional which is that New York, as I believe, is

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Speaker 3: not only the most interesting place, but on certain days

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Speaker 3: the only interesting place.

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Speaker 2: I'm a patriot.

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Speaker 3: So but when when, at what point, as we know

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Speaker 3: what a Malcolm Gladwell story is, the kind of sense

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Speaker 3: of surprise, playing with ideas, exploring ideas, readings, social science,

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Speaker 3: when when did that begin to click?

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Speaker 1: I think it's starts to the Post. Because the problem,

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Speaker 1: you know, whenever I would take a job, take a job,

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Speaker 1: you have to kind of conceive of what is the

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Speaker 1: problem that you're trying to solve on this job. And

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Speaker 1: the problem that I had when I got to the

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Speaker 1: Post was that I was twenty three and I had

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Speaker 1: never written a newspaper story in my life. I had

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Speaker 1: no idea how to do it, and I was surrounded

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Speaker 1: by people who were the greatest, like yourself. Yeah, yeah, No.

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Speaker 1: For those of you who don't know, David in his

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Speaker 1: day was an absolutely legendary one of the great newspaper

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Speaker 1: reporters of his generation. And they were they were Woodward,

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Speaker 1: Bob Woodward was when I got to the watch host.

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Speaker 1: I was in the business section. Woodward was there and

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Speaker 1: I would watch and like Steve call Dret Steve Colho

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Speaker 1: went on to become I mean, he's still around me.

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Speaker 1: He ran the Columbia Jerones in school call when he

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Speaker 1: I think you told me you pointed this out to me.

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Speaker 1: When you know, when we had the push button phones, Yes,

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Speaker 1: he would. You know, when I dial, it would be

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Speaker 1: like do do do do? To call was like that's

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Speaker 1: too slow, and he'd be like it was like a

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Speaker 1: concert pianist, you to play a chord. Yeah, like the

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Speaker 1: white He'd get the White House. It would be like

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Speaker 1: it would take him like five seconds. I'm like that

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Speaker 1: was all. And I had Mike, the legendary Mike iss

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Speaker 1: to Off was next to me. Anyway, my point is

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Speaker 1: I'm surrounded by all these people who were just better

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Speaker 1: at daily journalism than I am. And so the problem was,

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Speaker 1: how do you succeed in an environment whatever? And you

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Speaker 1: succeed in that environment by being the thing that they

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Speaker 1: are not. Right, everyone else was fast and fluid, So

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Speaker 1: I decided I would be slow and weird right and then.

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Speaker 3: And in fairness, the Washington Post did not prize weirdness.

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Speaker 1: No, it did not, although the key was the key.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the problem to be solved was how do

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Speaker 1: you stand up in an environment where everyone around you

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Speaker 1: is a total pro And so the to stand I

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Speaker 1: get to what everyone else is not doing. So people

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Speaker 1: around me were not writing five thousand wood stories on

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Speaker 1: death rod dogs.

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Speaker 2: No, no.

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Speaker 1: And I remember the first time I wrote a story

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Speaker 1: for The New Yorker. I was still at the Washington Post,

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Speaker 1: and I was writing the talk to the Towns before

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Speaker 1: they were signed, because that's so that way I could

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Speaker 1: freelance without them knowing, so I would. I was writing

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Speaker 1: these talk of the towns and I went to see

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Speaker 1: Chip McGrath and.

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Speaker 2: It was Tina brown'stupadias.

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Speaker 1: And Chip said I had written this little talk of

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Speaker 1: the town and he had some problem. He said, this

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Speaker 1: is I want you to fix this problem? He said what,

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Speaker 1: and so I said, I took it from him. I

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Speaker 1: said okay, and I just wrote in the margins my fix.

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Speaker 1: And I remember the looking at him and he was astonished.

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Speaker 2: Vulgarian.

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Speaker 1: It was vulgar. It was vulgar. He expected me to

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Speaker 1: go home and come back in a week with the fire.

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Speaker 1: I was like, no, I'll just just here do that.

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Speaker 1: And it was that's at the New Yorker. You had

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Speaker 1: to be that otherwise you if you wanted to be

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Speaker 1: slow and thoughtful and weird, then you were competing with

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Speaker 1: everyone else.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So I got there and I had to completely change.

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Speaker 1: I had to work hard. I had to do all

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Speaker 1: these things that I wasn't doing at the Washington Post.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more from my conversation with

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Speaker 1: David Remnick.

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Speaker 2: Which piece would you say set you off.

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Speaker 3: Into You're now at this retrospective moment in your literary

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Speaker 3: journalistic life where you're writing a piece that echoes your

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Speaker 3: first book and you're no longer twenty three years old. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: there must be some sense of self examination about that.

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Speaker 1: It was probably a piece called the Cool Hunt, Remember

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Speaker 1: the Coolhid, where I I don't know how I found

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Speaker 1: a woman who's still a very good friend of mine,

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Speaker 1: Did Gordon, who was a who went around whose business

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Speaker 1: was going around America telling corporations what was cool T

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Speaker 1: shirts and T shirts. And she was and still is

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Speaker 1: absolutely hilarious. And she I wrote a piece about her

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Speaker 1: about this idea that she would just go around and

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Speaker 1: she would declare something cool and she would tell you

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Speaker 1: what was and.

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Speaker 2: Companies would hire her and hire her.

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Speaker 1: But the whole point of that piece was the title

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Speaker 1: the Cool Hunt. Once you had the title, just like

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Speaker 1: it's like and there was you know, someone wanted to

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Speaker 1: make a movie out of course never nothing ever came

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Speaker 1: of it. But it was the first time I realized like,

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Speaker 1: like that was you know, that kind of it was

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Speaker 1: something else. There was something fun about taking being interested

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Speaker 1: in pop culture for the New Yorker And did New.

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Speaker 3: Yorker never have that kind of thing before? Now now

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Speaker 3: this kind of story comes up. But was that an

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Speaker 3: absence that you were feeling a vacuum?

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Speaker 1: I didn't know anyone else in the New York It

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Speaker 1: was the same. It was the same thing about trying

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Speaker 1: to be different. So I didn't know of anyone else

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Speaker 1: who was writing about DeeDee Gordon was not the typical

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Speaker 1: subject of a New Yorker profile. No, I mean she

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Speaker 1: you know, she was this kind of strange, hilarious. Uh.

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Speaker 1: She had this crazy crush on Keanu Reeves. She was

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Speaker 1: obsessed with Keanu Reeves. But I just thought, like, this

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Speaker 1: is different in a way, this is this will stand

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Speaker 1: outlets I needed you just needed to stand out.

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Speaker 3: And then you did the tipping point, which you know

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Speaker 3: is now associated with with with you. But as you've

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Speaker 3: said repeatedly that you what you were doing is taking

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Speaker 3: an idea that was very much in the air in

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Speaker 3: sociological terms, uh, in terms of crime and much else.

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Speaker 2: So what was the idea for the book?

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Speaker 3: You had these two pieces, and how did you cast

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Speaker 3: out what the what the book? What would what it

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Speaker 3: would be, what shape it would take, what voice it

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Speaker 3: would have?

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Speaker 1: Well? I didn't. My agent came Tina, who I knew socially,

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Speaker 1: and then she became an agent. She was just like

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Speaker 1: a She worked in the admissions department of something. She'd

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Speaker 1: been a graduate student, graduates in history. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: just knew she's friends of friends, and then she became

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Speaker 1: an agent. She said, can I be your agent? And

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Speaker 1: I was like, I guess sure. And then she's now

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Speaker 1: like the powerhouse, the powerhouses. But I knew her, and

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Speaker 1: she said, you should write a book on this, and

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Speaker 1: I but what is this the article the tipping point?

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Speaker 1: Because people got really interested in it, and I started

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Speaker 1: like someone in California flew me out to speak to

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Speaker 1: their group about it. I remember thinking that was really

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Speaker 1: weird that piece of New Yorker could so I thought, oh,

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Speaker 1: maybe people are kind of into this, and Tina's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you should do a book. So I knew the article

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Speaker 1: in New Yorker was a chapter literally a chapter or

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Speaker 1: a part of a chapter. And then I had to

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Speaker 1: kind of improvise. I'd never written a book before, I

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Speaker 1: had to kind of ye.

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Speaker 3: But before we get to the way you reconsider the idea,

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Speaker 3: because it's it's a very interesting bridge. I want to

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Speaker 3: know it probably is not in the stack of cards here.

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Speaker 3: I want to know how you invented yourself as a voice,

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Speaker 3: and how naturally or not that came to me.

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Speaker 2: Because I can.

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Speaker 3: Read a paragraph of yours or a page of yours,

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Speaker 3: and I know it right away that's you. There's a

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Speaker 3: certain cadence, there's a certain way that a chapters end

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Speaker 3: is there. There are moves that are as distinctive as

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Speaker 3: somebody's you know, a piano player or an athlete.

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Speaker 2: You you you know, you.

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Speaker 3: Watch enough athletes, you you listen to enough music. There's

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Speaker 3: a there's a Gladwell cadence. There's a Gladwell sense of humor.

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Speaker 3: It's very, very distinctive. How self aware are you of it?

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Speaker 3: How did it become itself?

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Speaker 1: Well, it's hard to say, you know that. So I

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Speaker 1: spent ten years at the Post, and there's something I

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Speaker 1: think that's crucial, because what happens at at the Post

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Speaker 1: is you learn how to write, meaning you learn how

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Speaker 1: to write without fear and self consciousness. You're forced to

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Speaker 1: remember by the end by time with the Washington Post.

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Speaker 1: I remember when I was one of the last stories

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Speaker 1: I wrote before I left for the New Yorker, there

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Speaker 1: was a shooting on the l R R. And it

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Speaker 1: happened at like four thirty in the afternoon, and back

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Speaker 1: then the deadline was like six thirty. Yeah, So I

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Speaker 1: get on the LA R and I go out to

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Speaker 1: the scene. I get there at like five thirty and

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Speaker 1: it's clearly a front page story, and they're like we

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Speaker 1: need the story.

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Speaker 2: And there's a shooting on the Long Island Railroad is

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Speaker 2: a front page story in the in the Washington Post.

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Speaker 1: It was a big shooting. Ah. It was like serious,

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be well. I mean my assumption was I

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Speaker 1: was telling them, of course, it's a front page story.

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Speaker 1: That's the way it works. This is huge Apeah, someone

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Speaker 1: got shot in New York City. Hold the front page.

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Speaker 1: It's about the fold, you know, like the whole nine

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Speaker 1: year You know this. You did this drill yourself many

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Speaker 1: many times.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you can do it from Moscow and you

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Speaker 3: could use They all get nervous.

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Speaker 1: Michael Spector used to his colleague ours was so good

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Speaker 1: at this. He would do a kind of salami slicing

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Speaker 1: where he'd take a story and do ten stories out

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Speaker 1: of it, and each one would get on the front

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Speaker 1: page because he would it would be like it's changed.

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Speaker 1: I said, there's another wrinkle, and they're like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: And they put the first wrinkle on the plump page,

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Speaker 1: the second wrinkle, and then there's day three. Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: I go out there. I'm on the l A R.

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Speaker 1: And I remember this is like this is when I

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Speaker 1: was at the peak of my powers. So I interviewed

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Speaker 1: all these people. I don't have time to don't there's

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Speaker 1: no laptops back then, there's no like. And I did

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Speaker 1: the thing which I had heard, you know, hard bitten newspaper.

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Speaker 1: I picked up the phone and I called it in.

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Speaker 1: I remember that feeling of like. I dictated a fifteen

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Speaker 1: hundred word story into the phone to someone typing on

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Speaker 1: the other end, straight through, and I was so pleased

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Speaker 1: with myself. But I realized at the moment, I got

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Speaker 1: nothing else to learn here. I have, they have. But

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Speaker 1: that's what you learned like, and that you never lose

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Speaker 1: that liquidity they hit so in no other was every bit,

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Speaker 1: every every bad habit you have as a writer gets

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Speaker 1: beaten out of you at a newspaper because it's just discipline.

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Speaker 1: It's like boom, you know, tell the story, tell them

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Speaker 1: in a way that's compelling.

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Speaker 2: But something happens to your pros. And I will linger

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Speaker 2: on this too long.

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Speaker 3: But if I read Anthony Lane, for example, I can

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Speaker 3: read him and I know that obviously Anthony is an

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Speaker 3: incredibly airudite reader and writer, but I know that he

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Speaker 3: did not get through life without reading PG. Woodhouse over

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Speaker 3: and over again, that that informs this texture of this,

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Speaker 3: this this tapestry. Who was that for you or was

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Speaker 3: it just the newspaper business?

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Speaker 1: Well no, no, no, So then I get to I

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Speaker 1: don't think, I think I have a little bit of

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Speaker 1: that the post, but it's but it's gets by putting it,

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Speaker 1: you get you get pared down, you get rid of

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Speaker 1: all your bad habits, and then you you have It's

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Speaker 1: like a It's like you know, in playing a musical instrument,

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Speaker 1: you spend the first ten years mastering the fundamentals, and

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Speaker 1: then you're free to develop some kind of state. But

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Speaker 1: you have to do the compulsory, you know, work to

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Speaker 1: go to. And that's what the post is. You it

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Speaker 1: it just you get reduced to the simplest essence of

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Speaker 1: how to tell a story, and now you have the

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Speaker 1: freedom and it come to the A lot of it

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Speaker 1: was Adam Gopnik. So I was reading Gopnik long before

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Speaker 1: I joined The New Yorker. And Gopnik is an exceedingly

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Speaker 1: distinctive voice, right, and I mean a beautiful way of

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Speaker 1: expressing himself. And and there's there's little kind of beautiful

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Speaker 1: little frill. I mean, his his pro sings, his little

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Speaker 1: choruses and frills, and it's just like and reading that,

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Speaker 1: you know, he's I'm a I'm half a generation.

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Speaker 3: But his move is he has many But what is

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Speaker 3: the pop culture or boomer pop culture as he and

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Speaker 3: I have discussed with reference when discussing something like you know,

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Speaker 3: Nietzsche or the Friends.

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Speaker 1: That's crucial. So this reminds me of something when I

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Speaker 1: was very when I was in middle school, I met

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Speaker 1: my lab partner was a guy named Terry Martin who

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Speaker 1: no Urn Martin now a Soviet scholar, but he by

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Speaker 1: happenstance in our little town in Canada. He was my

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Speaker 1: lab partner. And Terry was an absolutely brilliant guy. And

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Speaker 1: we were in biology together and we would do these

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Speaker 1: experiments and he would always refuse to do the experiment

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Speaker 1: the way we were supposed to do it, like as

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Speaker 1: a matter of and I remember at first utterly horrified

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Speaker 1: because we would never we couldn't finish anything, nothing was

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Speaker 1: ever handed in. We would always get terrible grades. And

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Speaker 1: then about like by kind of November of seventh grade,

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Speaker 1: I realize it's genius because what he taught me was

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Speaker 1: that you have the freedom. I mean, he wasn't being

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Speaker 1: destructive or nihilistic. He was like saying, okay, so they're

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Speaker 1: all going to do it this way, but we don't

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Speaker 1: have to do it that way. We can there's another

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Speaker 1: way to learn what's going on here. He was deeply interesting.

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Speaker 2: This is what so interested me. So play is what

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Speaker 2: you use the word. And I think it.

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Speaker 3: Even caused some people alarm or or they're offended intellectually

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Speaker 3: or otherwise, or they're jealous or whatever it is.

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Speaker 2: You use the phrase playing.

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Speaker 3: With ideas as if this is to them somehow irresponsible.

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Speaker 3: What is playing with ideas mean?

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Speaker 1: It begins with Terry in seventh grade because Terry and

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Speaker 1: I then we developed this deep friendship and we would

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Speaker 1: play endless games of monopoly, and we then deregulated monopoly,

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Speaker 1: and his whole our idea was this, This is our

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Speaker 1: idea was the rules? At that point we were like, well,

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Speaker 1: the rules make no sense. Like the game as it's

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Speaker 1: a brilliant game, but for example, why do you start

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Speaker 1: with fifteen hundred dollars? That's that is by the way,

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Speaker 1: if you're interested. This is the great flaw with monopoly,

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Speaker 1: because the point of monopoly is when you're playing it,

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Speaker 1: it should be a question of what can I afford?

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Speaker 1: Should it should be a difficult question. I land on

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Speaker 1: Marvin Gardens, Do I want to buy Marvin Gardens? Should

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Speaker 1: be a question that you have to entertain and come

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Speaker 1: up with a serious answer to. If you give each

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Speaker 1: player fifteen hundred dollars to start and you land on

390
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Speaker 1: Marvin Gardens, you just buy it. How was that interesting?

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Speaker 1: That's absurd?

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Speaker 2: So it's a little bit like inherited wealth.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. So we started with one dollar and what.

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Speaker 2: Could you buy with one dollar?

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Speaker 3: So you can't even get a slice of pizza much

396
00:21:25,396 --> 00:21:26,836
Speaker 3: Marvin guard you.

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Speaker 1: So the first ten minutes is just speed circling the

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Speaker 1: board a kim living capital and then and then you,

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Speaker 1: and then you. We have to come up with all

400
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Speaker 1: kinds of ways to Basically, we created systems for creating leverage,

401
00:21:40,156 --> 00:21:40,356
Speaker 1: so you.

402
00:21:40,396 --> 00:21:41,796
Speaker 2: Have too much time on your hand.

403
00:21:42,956 --> 00:21:46,316
Speaker 1: We played so much monopoly, so we What I realized

404
00:21:46,316 --> 00:21:50,956
Speaker 1: now is that we would sell the derivatives. So I

405
00:21:50,996 --> 00:21:54,636
Speaker 1: would say we like, if I landed on your property,

406
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Speaker 1: you had improved, you know, the blue property, you know,

407
00:21:57,956 --> 00:22:01,996
Speaker 1: Vermont and Oriental and what have we? And I owe

408
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Speaker 1: you five hundred bucks. We'd never pay the five hundred dollars.

409
00:22:06,516 --> 00:22:09,836
Speaker 1: That's silly. Why would you pay the five hundred dollars? Instead,

410
00:22:09,836 --> 00:22:13,156
Speaker 1: it should be an invitation to a negotiation about there

411
00:22:13,196 --> 00:22:16,636
Speaker 1: are clearly I owe you five hundred bucks, all right,

412
00:22:16,796 --> 00:22:18,836
Speaker 1: So how can I be useful to you in some

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00:22:18,956 --> 00:22:19,996
Speaker 1: other way? Right?

414
00:22:21,236 --> 00:22:22,716
Speaker 2: So it's goods and services.

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00:22:22,796 --> 00:22:25,236
Speaker 1: Yes, you know, I have you land on you land

416
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Speaker 1: on on Vermont, you'll meet five hundred bucks. I have

417
00:22:28,516 --> 00:22:30,956
Speaker 1: Broadway and eat park Place, So I say, okay, pay

418
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Speaker 1: me a hundred But if you land on park Place,

419
00:22:33,636 --> 00:22:36,436
Speaker 1: I have the right of first refusal to buy that

420
00:22:36,476 --> 00:22:39,596
Speaker 1: property front you right now, that's a that's a simple example.

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00:22:39,756 --> 00:22:44,956
Speaker 1: We constructed these insanely elaborate, massive derivatives and we would

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Speaker 1: play Did they have No Drugs? In Canada? We would

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Speaker 1: play with Terry's cousin Fred, and we would play like

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Speaker 1: three or four games an afternoon, and we would play

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Speaker 1: hundreds of games a summer and we'd just would get

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Speaker 1: together every morning just play the game like but it

427
00:23:05,156 --> 00:23:07,036
Speaker 1: was the same thing. It was like, you know, and

428
00:23:07,156 --> 00:23:09,076
Speaker 1: each over the coast of the summer we would create

429
00:23:09,236 --> 00:23:13,356
Speaker 1: ever more elaborate structures around. But that's that's the origin

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00:23:13,396 --> 00:23:15,956
Speaker 1: of play. Because Terry's assumption. This is what Terry taught me.

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00:23:15,996 --> 00:23:19,116
Speaker 1: He was like, what does Parker brothers know about monopoly?

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Speaker 1: That was self confidence of that was brilliant.

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00:23:22,996 --> 00:23:27,276
Speaker 2: Fair enough, But when you're when you were dealing with.

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Speaker 3: Auto safety, medical tests, all the many subjects.

435
00:23:34,996 --> 00:23:38,676
Speaker 2: In other words, at what point do you feel.

436
00:23:39,996 --> 00:23:42,676
Speaker 3: Grimly responsible toward the set of ideas and the and

437
00:23:42,716 --> 00:23:46,596
Speaker 3: the facts and and and how does that interact with playing?

438
00:23:46,636 --> 00:23:50,396
Speaker 3: What's the difference between what you're doing and what an

439
00:23:50,396 --> 00:23:54,676
Speaker 3: academic feels obliged? Because I mean, I remember having a

440
00:23:54,716 --> 00:23:56,916
Speaker 3: piece of yours and there was a piece and it

441
00:23:56,996 --> 00:23:59,676
Speaker 3: was so mean to Ralph Nader, who I was.

442
00:24:00,516 --> 00:24:02,316
Speaker 2: So great, who I was brought up.

443
00:24:02,276 --> 00:24:05,956
Speaker 3: To think was just an incredible hero for all. Okay,

444
00:24:05,996 --> 00:24:08,956
Speaker 3: he lost the election at one point, but another mind.

445
00:24:10,356 --> 00:24:12,396
Speaker 1: But I can tell you where that came from. So

446
00:24:12,436 --> 00:24:13,036
Speaker 1: this goes to you.

447
00:24:13,196 --> 00:24:16,556
Speaker 2: And then you blamed poor Ralph Nader for what like.

448
00:24:16,516 --> 00:24:21,796
Speaker 1: Oh, it's so genius that so on the sense of play?

449
00:24:21,956 --> 00:24:24,796
Speaker 1: What shoot? The first the first layer of play is

450
00:24:24,876 --> 00:24:28,996
Speaker 1: understanding other people who want to play, right, So I

451
00:24:29,036 --> 00:24:30,996
Speaker 1: got I like cars, and I thought it'd be fun

452
00:24:31,036 --> 00:24:33,596
Speaker 1: to write about autobile safety for the New Yorker because

453
00:24:33,636 --> 00:24:35,036
Speaker 1: nobody was running on other books, and if they were

454
00:24:35,036 --> 00:24:36,356
Speaker 1: writing about it, they were writing about it, and this

455
00:24:36,476 --> 00:24:40,316
Speaker 1: kind of really kind of wrote boring. So find someone

456
00:24:40,556 --> 00:24:42,596
Speaker 1: who has an interesting take on auto safety. Now where

457
00:24:42,596 --> 00:24:46,436
Speaker 1: would that person reside, Well, not in academia. They would

458
00:24:46,476 --> 00:24:50,036
Speaker 1: work for a car company. Right. Turns out there's a

459
00:24:50,036 --> 00:24:53,476
Speaker 1: Scottish guy called Leonard Evans who ran the safety department

460
00:24:53,476 --> 00:24:55,996
Speaker 1: at General Motors. And Leonard wrote a book called Traffic

461
00:24:56,036 --> 00:24:59,596
Speaker 1: Safety in America, which is so genius. And I read

462
00:24:59,636 --> 00:25:01,556
Speaker 1: Traffic Safety, I was like, oh my god, Leonard, you're

463
00:25:01,556 --> 00:25:04,916
Speaker 1: a genius. So call up Leonard and he's got this

464
00:25:04,956 --> 00:25:06,756
Speaker 1: whole Scottish brogue accent, and.

465
00:25:06,796 --> 00:25:07,796
Speaker 2: He's been waiting for you all.

466
00:25:07,996 --> 00:25:10,556
Speaker 1: He has been waiting for him for me his entire life.

467
00:25:10,756 --> 00:25:13,796
Speaker 1: No journalist has ever called Leonard, of course left. And

468
00:25:13,916 --> 00:25:16,476
Speaker 1: Leonard's sitting in his office in like Dearborn, wherever the

469
00:25:16,516 --> 00:25:18,556
Speaker 1: hell he is, and he doesn't even bother the clearer

470
00:25:18,596 --> 00:25:20,836
Speaker 1: it with General Motors public Relations because he's never had

471
00:25:20,836 --> 00:25:23,356
Speaker 1: a journalist call him before. He's just on the phone

472
00:25:23,396 --> 00:25:26,036
Speaker 1: with me and Leonard does something. The first story Leonard

473
00:25:26,036 --> 00:25:28,396
Speaker 1: gives me, he goes in his Scottish accent, which I

474
00:25:28,436 --> 00:25:32,476
Speaker 1: can't do. He says, you realize we're talking about airbags.

475
00:25:32,916 --> 00:25:38,836
Speaker 1: And one of this is in the mid nineties or

476
00:25:38,916 --> 00:25:43,716
Speaker 1: in late nineties, and one of Leonard's points was airbags

477
00:25:43,756 --> 00:25:45,756
Speaker 1: were suddenly a big deal. Everyone was in love with airbags.

478
00:25:45,916 --> 00:25:48,796
Speaker 1: And his point was the airbag, if you're not wearing

479
00:25:48,796 --> 00:25:52,076
Speaker 1: your seatbelt, the airbag is kill you can kill you,

480
00:25:52,276 --> 00:25:56,436
Speaker 1: particularly if you're very young, or very old, or very small.

481
00:25:56,476 --> 00:25:59,916
Speaker 1: And Leonard said, the reason we don't realize this is

482
00:25:59,956 --> 00:26:02,916
Speaker 1: that the reason we have airbags is because of Ralph Nader.

483
00:26:03,116 --> 00:26:05,436
Speaker 1: And Ralph Nator didn't understand this fact, and he was

484
00:26:05,436 --> 00:26:08,876
Speaker 1: promoting the airbag without he thought it was an alternative

485
00:26:08,876 --> 00:26:11,156
Speaker 1: to the seat belt, as opposed to an accompaniment of

486
00:26:11,196 --> 00:26:14,436
Speaker 1: the seat belt. And then Leonard said, and I never

487
00:26:14,436 --> 00:26:17,676
Speaker 1: wrote about this. He said, what you should do is

488
00:26:17,756 --> 00:26:20,996
Speaker 1: you should file a Freedom of Information Act request with

489
00:26:21,196 --> 00:26:28,116
Speaker 1: the whatever the automobile, whatever the transit automobile bureaucracy is

490
00:26:28,636 --> 00:26:30,876
Speaker 1: and ask for all the cases of people who died

491
00:26:31,636 --> 00:26:34,276
Speaker 1: because they weren't wearing a seat belt and the airbag

492
00:26:34,316 --> 00:26:36,956
Speaker 1: went off. And that's the blood that's on Ralph Nader's

493
00:26:36,996 --> 00:26:39,796
Speaker 1: hands and I was like, oh my god. So I file,

494
00:26:41,316 --> 00:26:44,636
Speaker 1: I file the foil request and like two months later,

495
00:26:45,156 --> 00:26:49,436
Speaker 1: like seven huge boxes show up at the Washington Post

496
00:26:49,516 --> 00:26:51,916
Speaker 1: and it's all the case files. What did I do

497
00:26:51,956 --> 00:26:56,996
Speaker 1: with that story? Nothing? And then so I remember this,

498
00:26:57,116 --> 00:26:58,476
Speaker 1: and I remember letter, and I get to the New

499
00:26:58,556 --> 00:27:00,756
Speaker 1: Yorker and I'm filled with shand I never wrote the story.

500
00:27:00,796 --> 00:27:03,316
Speaker 1: I would have won the pull of surprise. I would

501
00:27:03,316 --> 00:27:05,596
Speaker 1: have won the Letard gave me a pull of surprise.

502
00:27:06,036 --> 00:27:08,236
Speaker 1: He was all there in the boxes. It was like

503
00:27:08,636 --> 00:27:10,556
Speaker 1: hundred of people. I mean, it's sad.

504
00:27:14,956 --> 00:27:19,276
Speaker 2: He did say it was sad hashtag sad said.

505
00:27:19,356 --> 00:27:21,756
Speaker 1: And Leonard is not happy with me for not doing

506
00:27:21,756 --> 00:27:25,116
Speaker 1: a story about this. So then I say, okay, I'll

507
00:27:25,116 --> 00:27:27,396
Speaker 1: do the Ralph Natter story. Just I can't. I'm not

508
00:27:28,196 --> 00:27:29,956
Speaker 1: now the ship is sailed, but we'll do the Ralph

509
00:27:29,996 --> 00:27:35,956
Speaker 1: Natter story. And then I go. So then for some reason,

510
00:27:35,996 --> 00:27:38,196
Speaker 1: I go to Detroit, but I don't hang out with Leonard.

511
00:27:38,476 --> 00:27:40,716
Speaker 1: I hang out with his competitor at Ford, and I

512
00:27:40,716 --> 00:27:43,756
Speaker 1: think he got very well. Lennon certain about that. It

513
00:27:43,836 --> 00:27:46,116
Speaker 1: was unhappy. But the guy at Ford had this whole

514
00:27:46,116 --> 00:27:49,156
Speaker 1: thing about three point belts and we crashed all these cars.

515
00:27:49,156 --> 00:27:51,956
Speaker 1: It was so much fun. And then so I came back.

516
00:27:52,156 --> 00:27:54,236
Speaker 1: But the point it all starts with Leonard. Like Leonard

517
00:27:54,236 --> 00:27:58,556
Speaker 1: was a guy who wanted to play. He was an iconoclast, ignored,

518
00:27:58,716 --> 00:28:01,076
Speaker 1: sitting in his office in Dearboat and nobody was listening

519
00:28:01,076 --> 00:28:02,796
Speaker 1: to him, and he was writing these books that were

520
00:28:02,796 --> 00:28:07,596
Speaker 1: read by seven people, and he was just great. He

521
00:28:07,756 --> 00:28:09,876
Speaker 1: was just like and when you want to cover someone

522
00:28:09,996 --> 00:28:13,636
Speaker 1: like that? And he was so thrilled with the idea that.

523
00:28:13,996 --> 00:28:17,516
Speaker 3: I think another thing that thrilled you is that all

524
00:28:17,556 --> 00:28:20,156
Speaker 3: the rest of us slobs who are writing about politics

525
00:28:20,236 --> 00:28:25,276
Speaker 3: or show business or sports are obsessed with access. Right,

526
00:28:25,276 --> 00:28:28,116
Speaker 3: you want to write a profile of Lebron James, you

527
00:28:28,156 --> 00:28:31,676
Speaker 3: want to write a profile of Kamala Harris or whatever,

528
00:28:31,756 --> 00:28:36,676
Speaker 3: and you have to go through these tentacles and seaweed

529
00:28:36,756 --> 00:28:42,436
Speaker 3: of handlers and no and no, and can we have

530
00:28:42,556 --> 00:28:44,556
Speaker 3: quote approval and photo approval?

531
00:28:44,556 --> 00:28:47,956
Speaker 2: And the answer is no. Okay, blah blah blah. It's terrible.

532
00:28:48,076 --> 00:28:48,876
Speaker 2: It's terrible.

533
00:28:49,916 --> 00:28:51,796
Speaker 3: And I think part of it, And tell me if

534
00:28:51,796 --> 00:28:55,636
Speaker 3: I'm wrong, was your antipathy to that? I mean, the

535
00:28:56,036 --> 00:28:58,796
Speaker 3: closest I think you might have done to a true

536
00:28:58,916 --> 00:29:02,116
Speaker 3: celebrity profile. One of my favorite pieces was the guy

537
00:29:02,116 --> 00:29:04,876
Speaker 3: who was the Ronco what was it called the Ronco

538
00:29:05,036 --> 00:29:06,036
Speaker 3: jar and bottlecutter.

539
00:29:06,476 --> 00:29:08,076
Speaker 1: Oh, that's one of my favorite pieces of to all. Yeah,

540
00:29:08,076 --> 00:29:10,916
Speaker 1: that I ever did. On the guy who did the

541
00:29:10,956 --> 00:29:11,836
Speaker 1: Showtime artisary.

542
00:29:11,956 --> 00:29:15,316
Speaker 2: That's really the right o. The retissary chicken God.

543
00:29:15,516 --> 00:29:21,476
Speaker 3: Yeah, And but what I gleaned from that also, you

544
00:29:21,476 --> 00:29:24,276
Speaker 3: you had a very early interest in here. We're going

545
00:29:24,316 --> 00:29:27,476
Speaker 3: back a little bit. Before you were in journalism, you

546
00:29:27,516 --> 00:29:28,956
Speaker 3: were in advertising.

547
00:29:29,196 --> 00:29:30,956
Speaker 1: What was I wanted to be in advertising? I think

548
00:29:30,956 --> 00:29:31,836
Speaker 1: they couldn't get a job.

549
00:29:32,116 --> 00:29:34,036
Speaker 2: You couldn't get a job. Why did you want to

550
00:29:34,036 --> 00:29:34,876
Speaker 2: be in advertising?

551
00:29:35,716 --> 00:29:38,356
Speaker 1: Well, because I liked the idea that someone can tell

552
00:29:38,356 --> 00:29:40,156
Speaker 1: a story in thirty seconds. I just thought that was

553
00:29:40,156 --> 00:29:44,516
Speaker 1: fantastic and I was in awe of I thought the

554
00:29:44,556 --> 00:29:48,596
Speaker 1: greatest achievement was a well told thirty second story was

555
00:29:48,596 --> 00:29:50,756
Speaker 1: the hardest thing in the world. And the idea that

556
00:29:50,796 --> 00:29:52,996
Speaker 1: it can make you laugh or cry in thirty seconds

557
00:29:53,556 --> 00:29:56,676
Speaker 1: while they're selling you something. It's just in the degree

558
00:29:56,716 --> 00:29:58,316
Speaker 1: of devillion on that is just author.

559
00:29:58,196 --> 00:30:00,436
Speaker 2: Charts well Son, I wanted to do that. Hence what

560
00:30:00,476 --> 00:30:02,236
Speaker 2: was his name, the Ronco Jority.

561
00:30:01,876 --> 00:30:05,516
Speaker 1: Bottle, so Ron Pape he did the remember he did

562
00:30:05,596 --> 00:30:07,756
Speaker 1: the He used to do the late night infomercials. He

563
00:30:07,796 --> 00:30:10,596
Speaker 1: was the infomercial king and he did He made him

564
00:30:10,636 --> 00:30:13,236
Speaker 1: a number of things. But his showpiece product was the

565
00:30:13,236 --> 00:30:16,756
Speaker 1: Showtime Ortistery Oven, which was I claimed, dollar for dollar,

566
00:30:16,876 --> 00:30:19,836
Speaker 1: the finest kitchen appliance ever made, and I still believe

567
00:30:19,836 --> 00:30:21,396
Speaker 1: that to be the case. And I went out to

568
00:30:21,556 --> 00:30:24,436
Speaker 1: la and I hung out with Ron, and it was

569
00:30:24,956 --> 00:30:28,196
Speaker 1: I decided to go deep on Ron. And he turns

570
00:30:28,196 --> 00:30:34,676
Speaker 1: out he's from like Asbury Park or somewhere in his

571
00:30:34,676 --> 00:30:39,196
Speaker 1: His people were all.

572
00:30:37,716 --> 00:30:38,876
Speaker 2: They were tumblers.

573
00:30:39,036 --> 00:30:41,156
Speaker 1: There were sales on the boardwalk in New Jersey. They

574
00:30:41,396 --> 00:30:43,716
Speaker 1: all sold like knives and stuff on the boardwalk. And

575
00:30:43,836 --> 00:30:47,116
Speaker 1: Ron was the you know, another guy Ed McMahon was

576
00:30:47,356 --> 00:30:51,236
Speaker 1: part of that circle. And a guy named Kidders Morris,

577
00:30:51,516 --> 00:30:54,996
Speaker 1: who was rom p Appeal's grandfather, was a legendary guy

578
00:30:54,996 --> 00:30:56,836
Speaker 1: from the Old Country who came over and was selling

579
00:30:56,956 --> 00:30:59,996
Speaker 1: kitchen gadgets on the boardwalk. And they were they would

580
00:31:00,036 --> 00:31:02,756
Speaker 1: do the spiel and you know, the chop chop chop.

581
00:31:02,756 --> 00:31:05,396
Speaker 1: They'd have the they'd have the all the vegetables and

582
00:31:05,436 --> 00:31:07,036
Speaker 1: they'd be sitting on the boardwalk and they would show

583
00:31:07,036 --> 00:31:08,756
Speaker 1: you the knife and they go chop chop, chop, chop shop.

584
00:31:08,756 --> 00:31:11,796
Speaker 1: And the whole thing was to turn. This is a

585
00:31:11,876 --> 00:31:14,516
Speaker 1: crucial thing that he learns back then, which is so

586
00:31:14,556 --> 00:31:16,676
Speaker 1: the crowd gathers around you and you got the Ginsu

587
00:31:16,716 --> 00:31:20,036
Speaker 1: knife and you're chopping vegetables, and then at a certain

588
00:31:20,076 --> 00:31:24,196
Speaker 1: first of all, you can't you have a He taught

589
00:31:24,196 --> 00:31:26,836
Speaker 1: me this. He's like, you got the carrots and the potatoes,

590
00:31:26,876 --> 00:31:30,876
Speaker 1: and you got the pineapple. You can't ever chop the

591
00:31:30,916 --> 00:31:37,036
Speaker 1: pineapple because it's so expensive. It's just there. It's the

592
00:31:37,076 --> 00:31:40,036
Speaker 1: thought that he might somehow one day chop the pineapple.

593
00:31:40,076 --> 00:31:42,436
Speaker 1: That keeps the people coming. But no, no, you chopped

594
00:31:42,436 --> 00:31:44,996
Speaker 1: the carrots. The carrots are like five cents of carrot.

595
00:31:45,436 --> 00:31:47,236
Speaker 1: But the key thing is a turn. So the people

596
00:31:47,796 --> 00:31:49,796
Speaker 1: come close to get around you, you're going chop chop,

597
00:31:49,876 --> 00:31:54,436
Speaker 1: chop chop, and you got to sell them the knife,

598
00:31:54,516 --> 00:31:56,116
Speaker 1: and they got to get out of there because the

599
00:31:56,116 --> 00:31:59,116
Speaker 1: news one do people have to come in. That's the key,

600
00:31:59,196 --> 00:32:01,476
Speaker 1: so that anybody could do the thing. Chop chop, chop,

601
00:32:01,516 --> 00:32:04,836
Speaker 1: chop chop. People got around, But it's turning that crowd

602
00:32:04,876 --> 00:32:07,156
Speaker 1: and bringing in a new one in a seamless fashion.

603
00:32:07,196 --> 00:32:10,916
Speaker 1: That's and Ron was battle tested on the board He

604
00:32:10,996 --> 00:32:12,996
Speaker 1: was the greatest of all the boardwalk. And then he

605
00:32:13,036 --> 00:32:15,156
Speaker 1: goes to l A and he takes it up a

606
00:32:15,196 --> 00:32:18,676
Speaker 1: notch and he starts doing late night infomercials. And he

607
00:32:18,756 --> 00:32:21,876
Speaker 1: was so good. And I hung out with him and

608
00:32:21,916 --> 00:32:24,036
Speaker 1: he from I was out there for like two weeks,

609
00:32:24,516 --> 00:32:28,756
Speaker 1: mostly goofing around, but hang and I talked with the

610
00:32:28,796 --> 00:32:31,876
Speaker 1: guy who collaborated with on the showtime oven, and I

611
00:32:31,916 --> 00:32:33,796
Speaker 1: actually got it. I used to eat for years. I

612
00:32:34,196 --> 00:32:37,236
Speaker 1: used to cook my chickens on the Showtime. It was amazing.

613
00:32:37,396 --> 00:32:40,956
Speaker 1: No more, I think, I don't know what he got

614
00:32:41,036 --> 00:32:44,196
Speaker 1: really squeaky In like year six, he had a squeaky road.

615
00:32:44,356 --> 00:32:45,956
Speaker 1: I had a squeaky one. And Ron told me that

616
00:32:46,036 --> 00:32:48,436
Speaker 1: I had to fix it, and I.

617
00:32:47,996 --> 00:32:48,476
Speaker 2: Threw it out.

618
00:32:48,556 --> 00:32:50,716
Speaker 1: But his big thing was you threw out the oven.

619
00:32:51,116 --> 00:32:54,196
Speaker 1: I did his big thing that. You know a lot

620
00:32:54,196 --> 00:32:58,276
Speaker 1: of the back then in the old days, the rotisseries. Uh,

621
00:32:58,556 --> 00:33:02,156
Speaker 1: they they went like this like this is the spirit.

622
00:33:03,076 --> 00:33:06,076
Speaker 1: They were vertical. And Ron's like, why do you do it? Vertical?

623
00:33:06,156 --> 00:33:09,316
Speaker 1: Makes no sense? The juices flow to the bottom. Crazy,

624
00:33:09,396 --> 00:33:11,636
Speaker 1: It's got to be horizontal. He's the guy who starts

625
00:33:11,676 --> 00:33:15,596
Speaker 1: through Arizona at history and he was so it was

626
00:33:15,636 --> 00:33:18,356
Speaker 1: so and getting into the family history and at one

627
00:33:18,356 --> 00:33:22,316
Speaker 1: point he takes me to the grave site in New

628
00:33:22,396 --> 00:33:25,356
Speaker 1: Jersey where all the whole the three generations of these

629
00:33:25,396 --> 00:33:27,756
Speaker 1: legendary pitchmen who work the board bark and they're all

630
00:33:27,796 --> 00:33:29,636
Speaker 1: buried in this thing. And he starts to cry, and

631
00:33:29,676 --> 00:33:34,036
Speaker 1: it was just like it was just unbelievable. But the

632
00:33:34,556 --> 00:33:38,796
Speaker 1: move there and this minitor, your dear friend Henry Finder,

633
00:33:39,436 --> 00:33:42,316
Speaker 1: was very He was another very formative figure in this.

634
00:33:43,076 --> 00:33:48,356
Speaker 1: He's like everyone. The standard move is to make fun

635
00:33:48,436 --> 00:33:51,516
Speaker 1: of Ron Papeal. Do not make fun of Ron Papeal.

636
00:33:52,596 --> 00:33:57,156
Speaker 1: You have to genuinely. He's a hero you have and

637
00:33:57,476 --> 00:33:59,716
Speaker 1: if the reader thinks for a moment you're mocking the man,

638
00:33:59,836 --> 00:34:05,636
Speaker 1: you've failed. And that is the single and to this

639
00:34:05,716 --> 00:34:10,476
Speaker 1: day people make this air journalists due they think at

640
00:34:10,516 --> 00:34:14,356
Speaker 1: some point they have to demonstrate their superiority to the subject. Yep, no,

641
00:34:15,596 --> 00:34:19,676
Speaker 1: the subject. The subject is the hero, and you have

642
00:34:19,756 --> 00:34:23,316
Speaker 1: to find your job. There's ten ways to write that.

643
00:34:23,876 --> 00:34:25,076
Speaker 1: Peel had a very complic.

644
00:34:24,956 --> 00:34:26,276
Speaker 2: Except in political reporting.

645
00:34:26,316 --> 00:34:30,796
Speaker 1: But okay, yeah, well, but Ron had a. There's ten

646
00:34:30,836 --> 00:34:34,236
Speaker 1: ways to write the ROMP Appeal profile. Nine of those

647
00:34:34,236 --> 00:34:37,196
Speaker 1: ways you make fun of him, thank you, and one

648
00:34:37,236 --> 00:34:41,516
Speaker 1: way you reckon. You look for what is what was

649
00:34:41,556 --> 00:34:45,716
Speaker 1: fantastic about this guy, which is he devoted his life

650
00:34:45,756 --> 00:34:48,276
Speaker 1: and his people for a three generations, devoted his life

651
00:34:48,276 --> 00:34:55,116
Speaker 1: to making working in the kitchen a happier, healthier, easier,

652
00:34:55,596 --> 00:34:59,756
Speaker 1: more efficient. That's a fantastic He cared about whether the

653
00:34:59,836 --> 00:35:14,196
Speaker 1: chicken was vertical or horizontal. We'll be right back. We're

654
00:35:14,236 --> 00:35:17,276
Speaker 1: back at the ninety second Street Y with David Remnick.

655
00:35:18,236 --> 00:35:23,396
Speaker 2: You are no Lorna twenty three and you've just had

656
00:35:23,556 --> 00:35:25,156
Speaker 2: a couple of kids. They're how old though?

657
00:35:26,116 --> 00:35:30,276
Speaker 1: I got a toddler and a baby. I'm forbidden. I've

658
00:35:30,316 --> 00:35:35,556
Speaker 1: forbidden sixty are you? You're fourteen?

659
00:35:38,996 --> 00:35:44,236
Speaker 2: First of all, good luck, second of all, second of all.

660
00:35:45,636 --> 00:35:49,676
Speaker 3: Famously And you once told me you know how you

661
00:35:50,316 --> 00:35:53,596
Speaker 3: did one of your moves about college admissions.

662
00:35:53,836 --> 00:35:54,676
Speaker 1: I love that stuff.

663
00:35:54,836 --> 00:35:58,276
Speaker 3: Crazy they're getting in And then ninety second Street Y

664
00:35:58,436 --> 00:36:02,156
Speaker 3: Kindergarten and Ivy League this and Da Da da and Canada.

665
00:36:02,196 --> 00:36:04,356
Speaker 3: We just filled out an application the night before and

666
00:36:04,396 --> 00:36:07,116
Speaker 3: I okay, all right.

667
00:36:07,036 --> 00:36:09,836
Speaker 1: No, no, not even the night before you the day of

668
00:36:10,996 --> 00:36:14,396
Speaker 1: day up, David. My parents weren't even involved. My father

669
00:36:14,436 --> 00:36:16,916
Speaker 1: asked me where you applying to college? I was like, well,

670
00:36:16,956 --> 00:36:18,276
Speaker 1: I'm just doing the form now.

671
00:36:20,956 --> 00:36:22,476
Speaker 2: And what did you put on it? Monopoly?

672
00:36:23,396 --> 00:36:26,436
Speaker 1: No, you just send the form in. It's like a page.

673
00:36:26,476 --> 00:36:27,836
Speaker 1: You just send it in, all right.

674
00:36:27,676 --> 00:36:31,436
Speaker 3: So your kids are gonna not stay toddler and yeah,

675
00:36:31,556 --> 00:36:35,636
Speaker 3: baby for very long. I promise you that I this

676
00:36:35,636 --> 00:36:39,276
Speaker 3: This is one area where I know more. How are

677
00:36:39,276 --> 00:36:41,676
Speaker 3: you going to feel about college admissions when they get

678
00:36:41,676 --> 00:36:45,956
Speaker 3: to be sixteen, seventeen eighteen, because you're your your rant

679
00:36:45,996 --> 00:36:46,876
Speaker 3: about Ivy.

680
00:36:46,716 --> 00:36:48,796
Speaker 1: League, which I've been doing for years.

681
00:36:48,636 --> 00:36:51,036
Speaker 3: Which is it's one of the most perfected rants of

682
00:36:51,076 --> 00:36:51,476
Speaker 3: all time.

683
00:36:51,716 --> 00:36:54,276
Speaker 1: I got a new rant, by the way, I got

684
00:36:54,836 --> 00:36:57,516
Speaker 1: I got two episodes of my podcast. It is so

685
00:36:57,556 --> 00:37:01,796
Speaker 1: I've been working on this rant. You're right, fifteen years.

686
00:37:02,596 --> 00:37:05,436
Speaker 1: I have perfect I got two episodes of my podcast

687
00:37:05,516 --> 00:37:08,836
Speaker 1: coming out I think next week. It's called the Georgetown Massacre.

688
00:37:09,556 --> 00:37:14,476
Speaker 1: It is when I say this is this is like

689
00:37:15,436 --> 00:37:19,556
Speaker 1: it is my Beethoven's fifth it is my it is

690
00:37:19,676 --> 00:37:22,716
Speaker 1: my White album, it is my everything else I have done.

691
00:37:22,756 --> 00:37:25,636
Speaker 2: This is what's going on is just like.

692
00:37:26,076 --> 00:37:30,556
Speaker 1: Chump change compared this is two parts two parts on

693
00:37:30,556 --> 00:37:36,636
Speaker 1: one case involving a tennis player goes to Georgetown. And

694
00:37:37,476 --> 00:37:41,596
Speaker 1: every single everything I've done as a writer has been building,

695
00:37:42,076 --> 00:37:47,036
Speaker 1: building towards It's so genius and like, by the end,

696
00:37:47,156 --> 00:37:49,556
Speaker 1: it's just like and it has twists and turns and

697
00:37:50,196 --> 00:37:50,716
Speaker 1: it's just.

698
00:37:51,556 --> 00:37:57,676
Speaker 2: It's Would you like to preview it?

699
00:37:58,436 --> 00:37:59,636
Speaker 1: No, I don't want to give it away. You gotta

700
00:37:59,676 --> 00:38:02,756
Speaker 1: listen to it, so I'm not giving it away. So good. No,

701
00:38:02,636 --> 00:38:04,516
Speaker 1: but this is why I have to work for a living.

702
00:38:04,676 --> 00:38:07,036
Speaker 1: But no, I know what you're saying. Am I going

703
00:38:07,076 --> 00:38:14,676
Speaker 1: to be a hypocrite? Yeah? Of course? What the one

704
00:38:14,716 --> 00:38:15,396
Speaker 1: thing I will not do?

705
00:38:15,436 --> 00:38:15,596
Speaker 2: Though?

706
00:38:16,276 --> 00:38:19,236
Speaker 1: Yeah? What? There was one place where I believe.

707
00:38:19,076 --> 00:38:20,676
Speaker 2: Where are you gonna We're gonna draw the line?

708
00:38:20,756 --> 00:38:23,556
Speaker 1: S a t prep Now I'm not I'm not making

709
00:38:23,596 --> 00:38:23,956
Speaker 1: the call.

710
00:38:25,396 --> 00:38:29,276
Speaker 3: Oh okay, you mean the call to the the mocher.

711
00:38:28,996 --> 00:38:30,756
Speaker 1: Call you call in. I know, the guy who knows,

712
00:38:30,756 --> 00:38:32,156
Speaker 1: the guy who knows the guy who's on the board,

713
00:38:32,316 --> 00:38:39,676
Speaker 1: not doing that, Okay, I say.

714
00:38:40,236 --> 00:38:43,996
Speaker 3: We talked about voice before and and one of the

715
00:38:44,036 --> 00:38:49,036
Speaker 3: reasons I think that your podcast is so successful and

716
00:38:49,076 --> 00:38:53,356
Speaker 3: so seductive and I don't miss them is that it

717
00:38:53,636 --> 00:38:56,436
Speaker 3: has a real human voice. It doesn't feel read, even

718
00:38:56,476 --> 00:38:58,236
Speaker 3: though I know damn well that you've worked on them

719
00:38:58,236 --> 00:39:03,996
Speaker 3: really hard. Similar to your pros, it feels your written

720
00:39:03,996 --> 00:39:07,996
Speaker 3: crows feels spoken, and vice versa, which I mean is

721
00:39:08,076 --> 00:39:13,636
Speaker 3: high high praise. Podcasting is a relatively new form. Why

722
00:39:13,636 --> 00:39:16,556
Speaker 3: did you gravitate toward it in such a complete way?

723
00:39:16,596 --> 00:39:18,756
Speaker 2: It's not, it's not. This is not some advocation.

724
00:39:19,036 --> 00:39:22,356
Speaker 3: In fact, at a certain point, you know you've done

725
00:39:22,396 --> 00:39:24,876
Speaker 3: work where the book is an extension of the podcast

726
00:39:26,156 --> 00:39:28,316
Speaker 3: is with the Bomber book. So tell me about that

727
00:39:28,396 --> 00:39:29,196
Speaker 3: in your attraction to it.

728
00:39:29,196 --> 00:39:32,996
Speaker 1: Well, there's certain kinds of stories. So for example, the

729
00:39:33,036 --> 00:39:36,636
Speaker 1: story I was just telling you, what's George Semasker. You

730
00:39:36,636 --> 00:39:38,716
Speaker 1: could you could write it, but it's not nearly as

731
00:39:38,716 --> 00:39:42,116
Speaker 1: fun in written form. Right, So there's a certain kind

732
00:39:42,156 --> 00:39:47,116
Speaker 1: of story which lends itself beautifully to audio, where audio

733
00:39:47,196 --> 00:39:50,556
Speaker 1: permits you it could be more playful. You can get

734
00:39:50,556 --> 00:39:54,956
Speaker 1: away with stuff. What does that mean? Get away with stuff? Yeah,

735
00:39:54,996 --> 00:39:58,156
Speaker 1: there's no critical infrastructure, so it's like.

736
00:39:58,156 --> 00:40:00,116
Speaker 2: No one's gonna I don't understand. You could be more

737
00:40:00,116 --> 00:40:00,636
Speaker 2: full of shit.

738
00:40:02,116 --> 00:40:03,596
Speaker 1: No, you could be like you have to be.

739
00:40:03,716 --> 00:40:05,276
Speaker 2: You're careful I mean.

740
00:40:05,236 --> 00:40:07,796
Speaker 1: I am. We're not not making stuff up. What I'm

741
00:40:07,796 --> 00:40:11,516
Speaker 1: saying is people are more accepting of a kind of

742
00:40:11,556 --> 00:40:17,596
Speaker 1: playful outlandishness. So part of the the Georgetown Masker episodes

743
00:40:18,316 --> 00:40:23,476
Speaker 1: there there's the tongue is in the cheek, right even

744
00:40:23,476 --> 00:40:25,476
Speaker 1: as I'm making a substante point, and.

745
00:40:25,516 --> 00:40:28,436
Speaker 2: You feel you can do that more than on in

746
00:40:28,596 --> 00:40:29,676
Speaker 2: Caslon type in.

747
00:40:29,876 --> 00:40:31,836
Speaker 1: The Again, you would not let me write that for

748
00:40:31,836 --> 00:40:33,636
Speaker 1: The New York You take it.

749
00:40:33,556 --> 00:40:37,796
Speaker 3: Out because I would feel what it wouldn't work.

750
00:40:37,956 --> 00:40:40,436
Speaker 1: It's like, I don't. It's hard to explain because a

751
00:40:40,436 --> 00:40:42,716
Speaker 1: lot of what's playful about audio is stuff you're doing

752
00:40:42,716 --> 00:40:47,276
Speaker 1: with your voice, right, So you're you know, I can

753
00:40:47,436 --> 00:40:54,676
Speaker 1: I can adopt a tone of voice that says we're.

754
00:40:53,516 --> 00:40:54,836
Speaker 2: We're having a fun, right, we're playing.

755
00:40:55,596 --> 00:40:59,196
Speaker 1: Yeah. Like there's a character in the Georgetown Masker. Uh,

756
00:40:59,556 --> 00:41:02,996
Speaker 1: there's it's part of it. There's a turn and we

757
00:41:03,116 --> 00:41:07,876
Speaker 1: meet there's a guy who's charged in a case and

758
00:41:07,916 --> 00:41:11,756
Speaker 1: he takes as his lawyer. There's the two legendary two

759
00:41:11,756 --> 00:41:14,956
Speaker 1: greatest defense lawyers in the country, Roy Black and Howard Trevnick.

760
00:41:15,076 --> 00:41:18,516
Speaker 1: These two guys in Miami and we meet Royan Howard.

761
00:41:18,516 --> 00:41:21,356
Speaker 1: Now the first crucial thing is.

762
00:41:22,996 --> 00:41:23,236
Speaker 2: I can.

763
00:41:23,356 --> 00:41:26,636
Speaker 1: If I'm running a print version, you'll meet Royan Howard.

764
00:41:26,636 --> 00:41:30,796
Speaker 1: I describe them like you gotta hear. When you hear them,

765
00:41:30,956 --> 00:41:34,436
Speaker 1: it's just so much better and you realize, like, and

766
00:41:34,476 --> 00:41:36,796
Speaker 1: then when you're describing them, I can describe them in

767
00:41:36,836 --> 00:41:38,836
Speaker 1: a much more colorful way when I know you're going

768
00:41:38,916 --> 00:41:42,316
Speaker 1: to hear their voice. Right, I can't explain it better

769
00:41:42,356 --> 00:41:45,956
Speaker 1: than that, But there is something about I can. Like,

770
00:41:46,076 --> 00:41:49,556
Speaker 1: Howard has got long hair and rides a motorcycle in

771
00:41:49,596 --> 00:41:54,516
Speaker 1: the early morning hours and it looks like a movie star.

772
00:41:54,956 --> 00:42:00,596
Speaker 1: And uh does this he in this trial? He does

773
00:42:00,676 --> 00:42:06,676
Speaker 1: a he does a direct examination of the defendant's daughter

774
00:42:06,836 --> 00:42:11,796
Speaker 1: that is just so masterful. I mean, it's just it's

775
00:42:11,836 --> 00:42:13,716
Speaker 1: like and I was reading, you know, you read the

776
00:42:13,756 --> 00:42:15,716
Speaker 1: transcript and you come to this thing and you're like

777
00:42:15,876 --> 00:42:19,396
Speaker 1: someone because people like you and I. You know, our

778
00:42:19,436 --> 00:42:22,876
Speaker 1: business fundamentally, it's not about We're not in the writing business.

779
00:42:22,876 --> 00:42:25,236
Speaker 1: We're in the interviewing business. Right. We only to write

780
00:42:25,236 --> 00:42:28,516
Speaker 1: because we've interviewed somebody. It's really interviewing.

781
00:42:28,396 --> 00:42:29,276
Speaker 2: You think of it that way.

782
00:42:29,676 --> 00:42:33,436
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, really, oh yeah, the whole game is interviewing.

783
00:42:33,476 --> 00:42:36,276
Speaker 1: It's not okay, the writing is I would never write

784
00:42:36,276 --> 00:42:38,916
Speaker 1: something without it. The idea of writing something just without

785
00:42:39,076 --> 00:42:42,396
Speaker 1: having sat down first to talk to someone is unthinkable

786
00:42:42,436 --> 00:42:45,996
Speaker 1: to me. Right, So when you a defense lawyer, is

787
00:42:46,476 --> 00:42:47,156
Speaker 1: just a stipulate.

788
00:42:47,156 --> 00:42:49,156
Speaker 3: That's the fun part for you. That's the that's the

789
00:42:49,356 --> 00:42:51,196
Speaker 3: that's the juice of it above all.

790
00:42:51,356 --> 00:42:53,396
Speaker 1: Well, I don't find the writing part hard. I find

791
00:42:53,396 --> 00:42:56,476
Speaker 1: the the writing part is just it's just a matter

792
00:42:56,476 --> 00:42:59,476
Speaker 1: of sitting down, and it's the it's unders.

793
00:42:59,316 --> 00:43:02,396
Speaker 2: Tell any writers that, no, But that's the.

794
00:43:02,356 --> 00:43:04,236
Speaker 1: Gift of being at the Washington Post for ten years.

795
00:43:04,276 --> 00:43:05,956
Speaker 1: It used to be hard, and it wasn't. By the

796
00:43:05,956 --> 00:43:07,716
Speaker 1: time I was done there, I was on the phone

797
00:43:07,756 --> 00:43:11,076
Speaker 1: dictating the story. Like they solved that problem. The hard

798
00:43:11,156 --> 00:43:14,196
Speaker 1: part is can I sit down with somebody and can

799
00:43:14,236 --> 00:43:17,676
Speaker 1: I understand who they are and what they're trying to

800
00:43:17,716 --> 00:43:21,356
Speaker 1: say and represent that in a way that's meaningful and

801
00:43:22,396 --> 00:43:25,716
Speaker 1: powerful and all of that is stuff you get from

802
00:43:25,716 --> 00:43:28,036
Speaker 1: the interview. You don't. You can't make it up after

803
00:43:28,036 --> 00:43:30,796
Speaker 1: the fact, So you have to. Like I was doing

804
00:43:30,876 --> 00:43:36,836
Speaker 1: this summer, I spent I spent like twenty hours maybe

805
00:43:36,916 --> 00:43:39,756
Speaker 1: I've forgotten how many hours, ten fifteen, twenty hours with

806
00:43:39,836 --> 00:43:44,996
Speaker 1: this woman he was a psychologist, and it was incredible,

807
00:43:45,116 --> 00:43:48,956
Speaker 1: Like she agreed, thank God, to sit with me for

808
00:43:48,996 --> 00:43:54,316
Speaker 1: that long. Who's telling you steal it? You're like the

809
00:43:54,396 --> 00:43:57,116
Speaker 1: competition for goodness sake, that.

810
00:43:57,196 --> 00:43:58,396
Speaker 2: Hurts me very much.

811
00:43:59,956 --> 00:44:02,996
Speaker 1: Yeah, not telling you, I'm telling you. It was the

812
00:44:02,996 --> 00:44:05,036
Speaker 1: same thing with the Paul Simon thing that we did. Yeah,

813
00:44:05,076 --> 00:44:07,876
Speaker 1: I've heard of him where he you know, he sat

814
00:44:07,916 --> 00:44:12,516
Speaker 1: for forty hours and the whole thing. The trick, not

815
00:44:12,636 --> 00:44:16,996
Speaker 1: the trick, the what's interesting, what's hard about that was

816
00:44:17,036 --> 00:44:20,076
Speaker 1: not writing it up afterwards. All those problems were solved

817
00:44:20,116 --> 00:44:23,076
Speaker 1: in the interview. The trick was when we were talking.

818
00:44:22,836 --> 00:44:25,836
Speaker 3: To him and I if I started to interrupt, which

819
00:44:25,876 --> 00:44:27,116
Speaker 3: is the worst thing you can do in an interview.

820
00:44:27,116 --> 00:44:31,876
Speaker 3: But I've interviewed Paul Simon. He's not immediately easy. And

821
00:44:32,196 --> 00:44:36,076
Speaker 3: you had him for you know, on and on and on,

822
00:44:36,116 --> 00:44:39,796
Speaker 3: and it got richer and richer and richer, and he

823
00:44:40,156 --> 00:44:45,836
Speaker 3: is something you did something about you, your patience, your interest,

824
00:44:45,996 --> 00:44:49,596
Speaker 3: your silence, whatever, whatever it was, and drew out a

825
00:44:49,596 --> 00:44:52,316
Speaker 3: guy that I think it's fair to say, is not

826
00:44:52,476 --> 00:44:56,756
Speaker 3: immediately thrilled with being the process of being interviewed.

827
00:44:57,036 --> 00:45:00,676
Speaker 1: He was. I don't understand why he was so he was.

828
00:45:01,116 --> 00:45:03,556
Speaker 1: He kept on. I kept on saying I'm done, and

829
00:45:03,556 --> 00:45:05,436
Speaker 1: then he would he would say, no, let's when are

830
00:45:05,476 --> 00:45:07,636
Speaker 1: we meeting again? And we would me and Bruce, my

831
00:45:07,676 --> 00:45:10,236
Speaker 1: friend Bruce did it to get there, and Bruce I

832
00:45:10,276 --> 00:45:13,756
Speaker 1: would look at you, yeah, Bruce, I would look at

833
00:45:13,796 --> 00:45:16,116
Speaker 1: you like he really wants to do it again, and

834
00:45:16,156 --> 00:45:17,116
Speaker 1: he would always do it again.

835
00:45:17,156 --> 00:45:18,436
Speaker 2: And then I couldn't believe it.

836
00:45:18,476 --> 00:45:21,756
Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, if I was kind

837
00:45:21,756 --> 00:45:24,356
Speaker 1: of reconstructing why he was so kind of generous with

838
00:45:24,356 --> 00:45:26,876
Speaker 1: his time, that would be part of it. Part of

839
00:45:26,876 --> 00:45:31,436
Speaker 1: it was, I think we were uninterested in the parts

840
00:45:31,436 --> 00:45:33,236
Speaker 1: of his life that he felt had been picked over.

841
00:45:33,836 --> 00:45:35,916
Speaker 1: So we're not interested in your marriage to so and so,

842
00:45:35,996 --> 00:45:38,076
Speaker 1: in the relationship with Art Garf, but we were really

843
00:45:38,076 --> 00:45:40,676
Speaker 1: interested in his dad. And I remember there was one

844
00:45:40,676 --> 00:45:43,516
Speaker 1: moment were was a musician who was a musician. I

845
00:45:43,516 --> 00:45:45,916
Speaker 1: remember there was one time where Bruce and I asked

846
00:45:45,956 --> 00:45:48,036
Speaker 1: him some question. I asked him some question about his dad,

847
00:45:48,556 --> 00:45:54,476
Speaker 1: and he went He talked straight for like half an hour,

848
00:45:54,756 --> 00:45:57,236
Speaker 1: got incredibly emotional, and then he said I have to stop,

849
00:45:57,276 --> 00:46:00,676
Speaker 1: and he got up and walked outside. I was like, wow,

850
00:46:01,116 --> 00:46:04,836
Speaker 1: it was there was something really deep and the idea

851
00:46:05,436 --> 00:46:10,316
Speaker 1: it's so interesting, and it's that thing moment when you're

852
00:46:10,396 --> 00:46:14,636
Speaker 1: giving somebody. First of all, it never gets old when

853
00:46:14,636 --> 00:46:17,236
Speaker 1: you tap into something. So we had talked into something

854
00:46:17,276 --> 00:46:20,796
Speaker 1: that was real about him. That his relationship to his father.

855
00:46:20,876 --> 00:46:23,116
Speaker 1: He's a man in his seventies, his father's been dead

856
00:46:23,156 --> 00:46:28,556
Speaker 1: for thirty years. He eclipsed his father in every conventional

857
00:46:28,596 --> 00:46:32,596
Speaker 1: way by a million miles. And yet and he was

858
00:46:32,636 --> 00:46:34,756
Speaker 1: still you realize, he was still writing about his father.

859
00:46:34,876 --> 00:46:37,436
Speaker 1: He was still dreaming about his father. His father was

860
00:46:37,476 --> 00:46:40,956
Speaker 1: still like with him. You know. It was just such

861
00:46:40,956 --> 00:46:44,476
Speaker 1: a kind of like. But that when you get there,

862
00:46:44,956 --> 00:46:46,836
Speaker 1: and that was that's a long time for us to

863
00:46:46,876 --> 00:46:50,236
Speaker 1: get there. When you get there with somebody that, like

864
00:46:50,276 --> 00:46:52,996
Speaker 1: I said, the writing is not hard when you get

865
00:46:53,036 --> 00:46:54,796
Speaker 1: that kind of moment on the How.

866
00:46:54,676 --> 00:46:59,556
Speaker 3: Did your parents affect the way you look? You're now

867
00:46:59,556 --> 00:47:03,276
Speaker 3: at this some you're moving forward but slightly retrospective. You

868
00:47:03,316 --> 00:47:05,196
Speaker 3: have kids, your life has changed.

869
00:47:06,116 --> 00:47:10,836
Speaker 2: You look back on it. How did your parents inform

870
00:47:11,396 --> 00:47:12,396
Speaker 2: who you are in your work?

871
00:47:13,996 --> 00:47:19,636
Speaker 1: Well, my dad was uh was a He was a

872
00:47:19,676 --> 00:47:25,236
Speaker 1: mischief maker in the He was someone who had no

873
00:47:25,316 --> 00:47:31,676
Speaker 1: interest whatsoever in any authority in any he did not.

874
00:47:32,356 --> 00:47:37,516
Speaker 1: The psychological term that best describes him was disagreeable. Not

875
00:47:39,876 --> 00:47:42,756
Speaker 1: the psychologis. When he's a term, they don't mean obnoxious.

876
00:47:42,756 --> 00:47:46,716
Speaker 1: He was the furthest thing obnoxious, incredibly gracious man. In

877
00:47:46,756 --> 00:47:50,276
Speaker 1: psychological terms, disagreeable means you are uninterested in what in

878
00:47:51,036 --> 00:47:55,236
Speaker 1: the approval of others. No, could care less. Just the

879
00:47:55,276 --> 00:47:58,316
Speaker 1: idea of standing out and being different was just second

880
00:47:58,356 --> 00:48:03,156
Speaker 1: nature for him. It wasn't that he relished that being different.

881
00:48:03,476 --> 00:48:05,116
Speaker 1: He didn't care, just did what he was.

882
00:48:05,356 --> 00:48:08,156
Speaker 2: He different, he taught man to man.

883
00:48:08,316 --> 00:48:13,116
Speaker 1: He was. He was that kind of I've told this

884
00:48:13,156 --> 00:48:15,276
Speaker 1: story many times, but he we came, we moved to Canada,

885
00:48:15,316 --> 00:48:18,116
Speaker 1: were living in rural Canada and in kind of men

886
00:48:18,156 --> 00:48:20,036
Speaker 1: in nite country. It was all these old older Mennonites,

887
00:48:20,236 --> 00:48:23,516
Speaker 1: people who are like the Amish. They're in driving buggies

888
00:48:23,516 --> 00:48:26,196
Speaker 1: and a barn would burn down and they would do

889
00:48:26,236 --> 00:48:28,076
Speaker 1: a barn raising that all gather the next day and

890
00:48:28,076 --> 00:48:30,476
Speaker 1: they would raise the barn in one day. Hundreds of

891
00:48:30,476 --> 00:48:33,156
Speaker 1: Mennonites would come in their horses and buggies from miles

892
00:48:33,156 --> 00:48:38,316
Speaker 1: around and they would, you know, have huge spread of

893
00:48:38,356 --> 00:48:41,036
Speaker 1: food and they would just it was incredible to watch

894
00:48:41,076 --> 00:48:43,476
Speaker 1: actually if you go to a barn raising, hundreds of

895
00:48:43,516 --> 00:48:46,076
Speaker 1: them putting up a barn and and my father decided

896
00:48:46,076 --> 00:48:49,476
Speaker 1: to join. And he see, so there's one car, a

897
00:48:49,596 --> 00:48:52,596
Speaker 1: kind of you know, a volt his Volvo in with

898
00:48:52,836 --> 00:48:55,596
Speaker 1: like a hundred horses and buggies, and he is like

899
00:48:55,636 --> 00:48:59,036
Speaker 1: an English guy. They're all like clean shaven, wearing black

900
00:48:59,876 --> 00:49:03,916
Speaker 1: pants and like these you know hats, straw hats, and

901
00:49:03,996 --> 00:49:06,956
Speaker 1: he's like got a big beard and a tie, and

902
00:49:07,076 --> 00:49:09,116
Speaker 1: you know, he looks like a mathematician, an English mathematics

903
00:49:09,356 --> 00:49:12,196
Speaker 1: and drives up in his ball though with his kids

904
00:49:12,196 --> 00:49:17,876
Speaker 1: in tow, and not an ounce of self consciousness, not

905
00:49:17,996 --> 00:49:20,676
Speaker 1: even for it didn't even occur to him to ask

906
00:49:20,716 --> 00:49:24,476
Speaker 1: permission to show up. He shows up and says, you know, basically,

907
00:49:24,476 --> 00:49:26,356
Speaker 1: put me to work, and they're like okay, and they

908
00:49:26,796 --> 00:49:29,356
Speaker 1: he doesn't know what they're doing. So he's doing the

909
00:49:29,356 --> 00:49:33,716
Speaker 1: most manual labor. No one, none of the one hundred

910
00:49:33,796 --> 00:49:36,916
Speaker 1: people this barn raising had more than a sixth grade education.

911
00:49:37,476 --> 00:49:41,716
Speaker 1: He has a PhD in advanced mathematics. And he's the

912
00:49:41,716 --> 00:49:45,516
Speaker 1: happiest man there. That's so my dad he's just like

913
00:49:45,516 --> 00:49:48,236
Speaker 1: like and like went home and then never spoke about

914
00:49:48,236 --> 00:49:53,476
Speaker 1: it again, or my other favorite story of my dad,

915
00:49:53,516 --> 00:49:57,156
Speaker 1: a story he told me when he was in his seventies.

916
00:49:57,196 --> 00:49:58,636
Speaker 1: I don't know why I never told him this before.

917
00:49:59,556 --> 00:50:02,996
Speaker 1: He's married my mom. My mom is Jamaican. They're in Jamaica.

918
00:50:03,916 --> 00:50:06,676
Speaker 1: He's teaching at the University of West Indies, where one

919
00:50:06,716 --> 00:50:09,636
Speaker 1: of his students is Kamala Harris's dad common as a

920
00:50:09,636 --> 00:50:14,036
Speaker 1: stat and he decides he wants to write. He's writing

921
00:50:14,076 --> 00:50:16,596
Speaker 1: some paper and back then, if you needed a book,

922
00:50:16,636 --> 00:50:18,676
Speaker 1: you would it wasn't There's no the book he needed

923
00:50:18,756 --> 00:50:20,956
Speaker 1: was not in the University of West in his library,

924
00:50:21,076 --> 00:50:23,836
Speaker 1: and he figures out it's at the Georgia Tech library,

925
00:50:24,436 --> 00:50:25,996
Speaker 1: and so he's going to go to Georgia Tech. And

926
00:50:27,796 --> 00:50:30,076
Speaker 1: so he writes a letter to the professor friend who

927
00:50:30,076 --> 00:50:31,756
Speaker 1: knows that Georgia Tech. My name is Graham blahblah, I'm

928
00:50:31,756 --> 00:50:33,596
Speaker 1: a professor University of we Sidey's I would like to

929
00:50:33,636 --> 00:50:35,676
Speaker 1: come to Georgia Tech to read your use your library.

930
00:50:35,796 --> 00:50:38,996
Speaker 1: Guy says yes, and he's preparing to go, and he

931
00:50:39,236 --> 00:50:42,916
Speaker 1: learns later that it kicks off a panic at Georgia Tech.

932
00:50:42,916 --> 00:50:47,436
Speaker 1: Because it's nineteen sixty Georgia Tech is segregated and they

933
00:50:47,436 --> 00:50:50,036
Speaker 1: don't know whether he's white or black. They just know

934
00:50:50,116 --> 00:50:52,596
Speaker 1: he's a professor from the University of WestIndies. God knows

935
00:50:52,596 --> 00:50:54,636
Speaker 1: he could be a black guy coming to our camp.

936
00:50:54,676 --> 00:50:56,596
Speaker 1: But we just invited a black guy to the campus.

937
00:50:56,796 --> 00:51:00,716
Speaker 1: Holy shit. And like they go nuts. And finally there's

938
00:51:00,716 --> 00:51:03,396
Speaker 1: no telephon there's no there's telephones, but there's no direct line.

939
00:51:03,756 --> 00:51:06,836
Speaker 1: They try and find out who. Finally they reach you

940
00:51:06,876 --> 00:51:09,836
Speaker 1: on the phone before he's about to come, and you know,

941
00:51:09,916 --> 00:51:14,716
Speaker 1: he's called to the switchboard whatever, you know, Professor Glappel, Yes,

942
00:51:14,876 --> 00:51:18,156
Speaker 1: this is so and so from Georgia Tech. Yes, are

943
00:51:18,156 --> 00:51:22,716
Speaker 1: you white? He goes yes, and they go, oh, thank god.

944
00:51:22,956 --> 00:51:26,076
Speaker 1: So then but this is the story's out over. So

945
00:51:26,196 --> 00:51:30,836
Speaker 1: then now they're going to roll out the red carpet, right.

946
00:51:31,236 --> 00:51:34,156
Speaker 1: But so he gets on the boat, sails from Jamaica.

947
00:51:34,196 --> 00:51:36,556
Speaker 1: I'm like, he gets on the bus. How you did it? Back?

948
00:51:36,556 --> 00:51:40,396
Speaker 1: Then takes the bus from Miami to Atlanta, goes they

949
00:51:40,396 --> 00:51:42,676
Speaker 1: have a welcome dinner. They're all sitting down, all like

950
00:51:42,796 --> 00:51:46,836
Speaker 1: these white men, right, And halfway through the meal, he

951
00:51:46,956 --> 00:51:50,436
Speaker 1: pulls out a large eight by ten photo of my mom.

952
00:51:52,916 --> 00:51:54,836
Speaker 1: He says, yes, my wife, I was going to bring over.

953
00:51:54,916 --> 00:51:59,076
Speaker 1: I said it again, hands it around the room like no,

954
00:52:00,916 --> 00:52:03,796
Speaker 1: to him, that was a fantastic moment, like show these

955
00:52:03,796 --> 00:52:10,956
Speaker 1: guys never mentioned a word about that story for forty

956
00:52:11,196 --> 00:52:14,196
Speaker 1: somewhere and then he's ran, He's like, oh, I went

957
00:52:14,236 --> 00:52:17,476
Speaker 1: to Georgia Tech and I I had interviewed some guy

958
00:52:17,516 --> 00:52:20,436
Speaker 1: there who was the head of the political science department,

959
00:52:20,436 --> 00:52:23,116
Speaker 1: who was a black guy from Atlanta. And I told

960
00:52:23,116 --> 00:52:25,516
Speaker 1: it to my dad and goes, oh, it's so funny.

961
00:52:25,796 --> 00:52:28,916
Speaker 1: Was it all was that way? And then the story

962
00:52:29,756 --> 00:52:33,396
Speaker 1: but his that was so hammy, just like he just

963
00:52:33,756 --> 00:52:35,716
Speaker 1: it was like he just liked, he loved nothing more

964
00:52:35,756 --> 00:52:39,276
Speaker 1: than like poking the bear. But he didn't, you know,

965
00:52:39,436 --> 00:52:40,276
Speaker 1: you didn't make a big.

966
00:52:40,156 --> 00:52:40,596
Speaker 2: Deal about it.

967
00:52:40,636 --> 00:52:42,116
Speaker 1: He just wanted to go around poking the bear.

968
00:52:42,156 --> 00:52:44,876
Speaker 3: Before I asked about your mom, you mentioned that your

969
00:52:44,956 --> 00:52:48,116
Speaker 3: dad was taught Kamala Harris's far.

970
00:52:48,276 --> 00:52:51,876
Speaker 1: Yeah, Donald Harris was a student of his. We knew

971
00:52:51,916 --> 00:52:56,596
Speaker 1: him somehow. Donald Harris told me this, not my dad,

972
00:52:56,836 --> 00:53:00,276
Speaker 1: because my dad obviously had passed by the time Kamala

973
00:53:00,356 --> 00:53:04,876
Speaker 1: became a big deal. But yeah, they were Donald Harris.

974
00:53:04,916 --> 00:53:09,676
Speaker 1: My mom knows Donald Harris is from is from Brownstown,

975
00:53:09,876 --> 00:53:11,996
Speaker 1: which is where my mom went to school. She knows

976
00:53:12,476 --> 00:53:14,436
Speaker 1: she went to school. She went to church at his

977
00:53:14,636 --> 00:53:19,516
Speaker 1: father's church, and like they clearly must have seen each

978
00:53:19,556 --> 00:53:22,836
Speaker 1: other across a few at the age of the degree

979
00:53:22,876 --> 00:53:27,276
Speaker 1: of excitement in well all, I mean, first of all,

980
00:53:27,316 --> 00:53:32,476
Speaker 1: what's hilarious is there's one group that says Kamala Harris

981
00:53:32,596 --> 00:53:35,196
Speaker 1: is black. Then there's another group that says she's Indian,

982
00:53:35,196 --> 00:53:37,436
Speaker 1: and then there's the Jamaicans or like she's a Jamaican, right,

983
00:53:37,996 --> 00:53:42,516
Speaker 1: And so the level of excitement among the Jamaicans over

984
00:53:42,676 --> 00:53:47,556
Speaker 1: her is my mother like, literally she's ninety three. There

985
00:53:47,596 --> 00:53:51,476
Speaker 1: is zero chance she will exit this world between now

986
00:53:51,876 --> 00:53:58,396
Speaker 1: and the election. Zero. It's it's not happening. Like the

987
00:53:58,596 --> 00:54:01,596
Speaker 1: degree to which her defense I call her up, she's

988
00:54:01,596 --> 00:54:05,316
Speaker 1: just the first time that's just defending Kambala against they

989
00:54:05,316 --> 00:54:09,996
Speaker 1: were attacking her for her big thing is attacking her

990
00:54:10,036 --> 00:54:13,796
Speaker 1: for not revealing her positions. She's just started. How can

991
00:54:13,796 --> 00:54:17,316
Speaker 1: you how could she have positions before she's started? My

992
00:54:17,436 --> 00:54:19,876
Speaker 1: mother's the whole thing is this should unfold over the

993
00:54:19,916 --> 00:54:20,676
Speaker 1: passage of time.

994
00:54:21,036 --> 00:54:23,236
Speaker 3: Is I remember I had the privilege of meeting her

995
00:54:23,236 --> 00:54:26,236
Speaker 3: a few times, particularly in Washington, and she she struck

996
00:54:26,236 --> 00:54:28,316
Speaker 3: me as a very proper.

997
00:54:29,316 --> 00:54:33,316
Speaker 1: She's my mother is a very very Yes, she is

998
00:54:33,316 --> 00:54:39,036
Speaker 1: a very refined, dignified Jamaican lady. Yeah, you don't nobody

999
00:54:39,116 --> 00:54:43,516
Speaker 1: messes with she was. She also, you know, she loved

1000
00:54:43,516 --> 00:54:47,116
Speaker 1: also confronting authority and did it endlessly and to great

1001
00:54:47,116 --> 00:54:50,036
Speaker 1: effect in our little town. They had never met.

1002
00:54:50,076 --> 00:54:52,356
Speaker 2: How did she navigate rural Ontario?

1003
00:54:54,036 --> 00:54:58,836
Speaker 1: She just sailed right in. She she met all the

1004
00:54:58,876 --> 00:55:02,516
Speaker 1: kind of power brokers in town, charmed them, got on

1005
00:55:02,556 --> 00:55:06,156
Speaker 1: all the right committees. And I mean it was menn nights.

1006
00:55:06,196 --> 00:55:09,076
Speaker 1: So the men nights are There's no, they're not. They're

1007
00:55:09,196 --> 00:55:11,036
Speaker 1: the opposine end of the.

1008
00:55:10,596 --> 00:55:11,996
Speaker 2: They are not racist.

1009
00:55:12,076 --> 00:55:14,676
Speaker 1: It's no racist. There was no racist. You know, it

1010
00:55:14,756 --> 00:55:17,236
Speaker 1: was nothing. And also it's a very different now that

1011
00:55:17,276 --> 00:55:20,116
Speaker 1: I understand this, it's a very different different story when

1012
00:55:20,156 --> 00:55:24,156
Speaker 1: you're the only black person in town. I don mean, well,

1013
00:55:24,236 --> 00:55:28,356
Speaker 1: she talked about this time book. An outsider is not

1014
00:55:28,396 --> 00:55:31,596
Speaker 1: threatening at those in those numbers, right, particularly an outsider

1015
00:55:31,596 --> 00:55:35,316
Speaker 1: who is and she was. This is a deeply Christian town,

1016
00:55:35,556 --> 00:55:38,916
Speaker 1: and my mother is a very devout woman, and so

1017
00:55:38,956 --> 00:55:41,476
Speaker 1: she read very she seemed very familiar to them, even

1018
00:55:41,476 --> 00:55:44,676
Speaker 1: if she was at the same time in some sense exotic,

1019
00:55:45,276 --> 00:55:49,636
Speaker 1: but she's very She would never register even if something

1020
00:55:50,036 --> 00:55:53,276
Speaker 1: untoward was done to her, she would never register that

1021
00:55:53,316 --> 00:55:57,556
Speaker 1: in the moment, you know, she would hold it back

1022
00:55:57,596 --> 00:55:59,436
Speaker 1: and she would tell you about it maybe later, but

1023
00:55:59,636 --> 00:56:02,876
Speaker 1: it was in a And also there's a lot of

1024
00:56:02,996 --> 00:56:05,316
Speaker 1: us things will tell you this. It's very different to

1025
00:56:05,356 --> 00:56:10,556
Speaker 1: come from a culture where you're in the majority. You know,

1026
00:56:10,876 --> 00:56:13,036
Speaker 1: a story actually I told her an Elars when my

1027
00:56:13,076 --> 00:56:17,756
Speaker 1: mom was in she was a scholarship student at a

1028
00:56:17,996 --> 00:56:21,916
Speaker 1: boarding school in Jamaica, and all of the scholarship students

1029
00:56:21,916 --> 00:56:25,516
Speaker 1: were black, right, and they would be and they were

1030
00:56:25,516 --> 00:56:27,396
Speaker 1: all there because they were really good students. And so

1031
00:56:27,876 --> 00:56:30,436
Speaker 1: she's like eleven years old and she reads in the

1032
00:56:30,836 --> 00:56:35,716
Speaker 1: in Psyclar Britannica that black people are genetically inferior to

1033
00:56:35,756 --> 00:56:38,316
Speaker 1: white people when it comes to intelligence. And she is, no,

1034
00:56:38,556 --> 00:56:40,916
Speaker 1: she can't comprehend this because in her world, all the

1035
00:56:40,956 --> 00:56:43,436
Speaker 1: smart people are these in the Britannica. Yeah this is

1036
00:56:43,436 --> 00:56:46,356
Speaker 1: like from nineteen hundred. Ye they're still in Jamaica in

1037
00:56:46,396 --> 00:56:49,076
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty whatever. But in her world, all the smart

1038
00:56:49,116 --> 00:56:53,196
Speaker 1: people are black and the dumb ones are the you know,

1039
00:56:53,236 --> 00:56:56,956
Speaker 1: the plantation owners daughters you know these white kids from

1040
00:56:57,156 --> 00:56:59,436
Speaker 1: you know one general, They're like, what are they doing here?

1041
00:56:59,796 --> 00:57:02,956
Speaker 1: You know? And so it's like that's the if, that's

1042
00:57:03,036 --> 00:57:05,956
Speaker 1: your mindset when all you you know her, so she

1043
00:57:05,996 --> 00:57:07,756
Speaker 1: has a So you come to Canada and you have

1044
00:57:07,836 --> 00:57:11,036
Speaker 1: no comprehension of the base. You think of racism, You

1045
00:57:11,076 --> 00:57:16,916
Speaker 1: think of racist tropes as absurd, as opposed to being malignant.

1046
00:57:19,036 --> 00:57:23,836
Speaker 3: Malcolm, I, I want to thank you deeply for your

1047
00:57:24,116 --> 00:57:25,836
Speaker 3: your work and your friendship.

1048
00:57:26,316 --> 00:57:28,636
Speaker 2: I miss you. You live in like god knows where

1049
00:57:28,636 --> 00:57:29,996
Speaker 2: in upstate New York.

1050
00:57:30,076 --> 00:57:33,876
Speaker 3: I wish I saw you much more often.

1051
00:57:34,196 --> 00:57:39,116
Speaker 1: Your idea of Upstate New York is like Awestening. That's

1052
00:57:39,116 --> 00:57:41,956
Speaker 1: about as far as you go. You're like, we're we're

1053
00:57:42,196 --> 00:57:44,436
Speaker 1: thinking you and I are going away where you're going?

1054
00:57:44,556 --> 00:57:50,156
Speaker 3: Yonkery, what was your theory there was?

1055
00:57:50,236 --> 00:57:54,396
Speaker 2: What was the mountain Jews? I'm not a mountain Jew you, No,

1056
00:57:54,436 --> 00:57:55,036
Speaker 2: I'm really not.

1057
00:57:56,076 --> 00:57:56,276
Speaker 1: You know.

1058
00:57:56,356 --> 00:58:00,356
Speaker 3: I'm an environmentalist because I want there to be a

1059
00:58:00,396 --> 00:58:03,516
Speaker 3: wonderful and healthy environment for you.

1060
00:58:03,516 --> 00:58:06,596
Speaker 1: No, you're an environmentist because you you've you've been told

1061
00:58:06,636 --> 00:58:07,996
Speaker 1: there is an environment out there.

1062
00:58:08,716 --> 00:58:13,636
Speaker 3: I'm I check in with Betsy Colbert and Bill mckibbon

1063
00:58:13,756 --> 00:58:15,236
Speaker 3: and and and others.

1064
00:58:16,116 --> 00:58:19,116
Speaker 2: And I'm told, like the other day, I was.

1065
00:58:19,476 --> 00:58:22,996
Speaker 3: Walking into my my building and I heard this racket.

1066
00:58:23,476 --> 00:58:25,116
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I said, what is that?

1067
00:58:26,036 --> 00:58:28,596
Speaker 3: And the and the dork I said, those are birds.

1068
00:58:35,756 --> 00:58:39,636
Speaker 3: Evidently this is a bad attitude. I want to close

1069
00:58:39,676 --> 00:58:43,516
Speaker 3: by asking you a very crucial question. You you have

1070
00:58:43,676 --> 00:58:48,836
Speaker 3: have an ambivalent relationship with sports. With sports, you once said,

1071
00:58:48,876 --> 00:58:52,916
Speaker 3: and you're a huge sports fan, Buffalo bills running, You're

1072
00:58:53,036 --> 00:58:56,556
Speaker 3: terrific runner. But you've also said that sports are a

1073
00:58:56,716 --> 00:58:58,316
Speaker 3: moral abomination.

1074
00:58:59,796 --> 00:59:03,516
Speaker 1: Did I say that you did? Yeah? Yeah, I remember

1075
00:59:03,836 --> 00:59:05,676
Speaker 1: what what in what era of.

1076
00:59:05,596 --> 00:59:11,076
Speaker 3: My I think you were your annoyance with professional sports?

1077
00:59:11,836 --> 00:59:15,316
Speaker 1: Well, I do you know? So here's my in a nutshell,

1078
00:59:15,356 --> 00:59:19,436
Speaker 1: my current thinking on this. I was a very good

1079
00:59:19,516 --> 00:59:23,196
Speaker 1: high school runner, and then I quit and did run

1080
00:59:23,276 --> 00:59:26,956
Speaker 1: for thirty years and started again and became a kind

1081
00:59:26,996 --> 00:59:30,236
Speaker 1: of slightly better than mediocre.

1082
00:59:30,436 --> 00:59:31,156
Speaker 2: Better than that.

1083
00:59:31,276 --> 00:59:35,236
Speaker 1: But yeah, when I was at sixteen, I was up here.

1084
00:59:35,676 --> 00:59:38,436
Speaker 1: When I was fifty, I was down here. And I

1085
00:59:38,476 --> 00:59:42,796
Speaker 1: had way, way, way more fun when I was at

1086
00:59:42,836 --> 00:59:45,436
Speaker 1: fifty in mediocre than I did when I was fifteen

1087
00:59:45,476 --> 00:59:49,996
Speaker 1: and a national champion. And it is maybe realize that

1088
00:59:50,116 --> 00:59:52,756
Speaker 1: you actually you want to be mediocre. You don't want

1089
00:59:52,796 --> 00:59:56,196
Speaker 1: to be you don't want to be good, aside from

1090
00:59:56,236 --> 00:59:59,596
Speaker 1: the very very small group of people who genuinely if

1091
00:59:59,596 --> 01:00:04,396
Speaker 1: you're Lebron or you're Usain Bolt, fine, but the idea

1092
01:00:04,396 --> 01:00:06,876
Speaker 1: that the rest of us should be pursuing that kind

1093
01:00:06,916 --> 01:00:10,396
Speaker 1: of athletic excellence is in the stake and what's happened

1094
01:00:11,956 --> 01:00:13,916
Speaker 1: there is I think in the audience a woman named

1095
01:00:13,956 --> 01:00:17,196
Speaker 1: Linda Flanagan, who wrote this book I adore called Taking

1096
01:00:17,236 --> 01:00:20,836
Speaker 1: Back the Game, which is this critique of what's gone

1097
01:00:20,916 --> 01:00:23,796
Speaker 1: wrong with youth sports, and this is I think one

1098
01:00:23,836 --> 01:00:26,836
Speaker 1: of her this is one of her central arguments in

1099
01:00:26,876 --> 01:00:29,516
Speaker 1: this wonderful book which really changed the way I think about,

1100
01:00:29,876 --> 01:00:33,476
Speaker 1: which is that we've destroyed the very thing that made

1101
01:00:33,556 --> 01:00:40,196
Speaker 1: sports fun, play play right by this kind of professionalizing

1102
01:00:40,436 --> 01:00:43,636
Speaker 1: of youth sports. And I realized that was my problem.

1103
01:00:43,716 --> 01:00:46,436
Speaker 1: When I was fifteen, I was caught up in a

1104
01:00:46,476 --> 01:00:48,916
Speaker 1: fantasy about that I was going to go to the Olympics,

1105
01:00:48,916 --> 01:00:51,476
Speaker 1: and it ruined running for me. And I didn't run

1106
01:00:51,516 --> 01:00:54,356
Speaker 1: for thirty years. And that's heartbreaking because I learned running

1107
01:00:54,356 --> 01:00:58,676
Speaker 1: more than almost anything else, and I recovered my joy

1108
01:00:58,676 --> 01:01:01,436
Speaker 1: of running only when I was coming in twenty eight

1109
01:01:01,636 --> 01:01:04,636
Speaker 1: in my local five K. And so that's what I

1110
01:01:04,676 --> 01:01:08,876
Speaker 1: mean by like this. We shouldn't be telling. We shouldn't

1111
01:01:08,916 --> 01:01:11,956
Speaker 1: be Linda would tell you, why are you taking a

1112
01:01:11,996 --> 01:01:15,876
Speaker 1: thirteen year old and putting them through the torturing, the

1113
01:01:15,956 --> 01:01:18,356
Speaker 1: torture and getting in a car and driving for three

1114
01:01:18,396 --> 01:01:22,356
Speaker 1: hours for like a soccer match. Why the drive should

1115
01:01:22,396 --> 01:01:27,796
Speaker 1: never be longer than the match. That should be a rule, right,

1116
01:01:29,756 --> 01:01:40,716
Speaker 1: Malcolm Blodwell, thank you, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for

1117
01:01:40,796 --> 01:01:43,196
Speaker 1: listening to that conversation with David Remnick at the ninety

1118
01:01:43,196 --> 01:01:46,236
Speaker 1: second Street. Why you can find Revenge of the Tipping

1119
01:01:46,236 --> 01:01:50,116
Speaker 1: Point wherever you get your audio books. Next time on

1120
01:01:50,196 --> 01:01:57,596
Speaker 1: Revisionist History, an update on Broken Windows theory. Revision's History

1121
01:01:57,836 --> 01:02:01,036
Speaker 1: is produced by Lucy Sullivan with Ben the Daphaffrey and

1122
01:02:01,156 --> 01:02:06,076
Speaker 1: Nina Bird Lawrence. Our editor is Karen Shakerji. Original scoring

1123
01:02:06,116 --> 01:02:09,716
Speaker 1: by Luis Kira, mastering by Echo Mountain, ring by Nina

1124
01:02:09,716 --> 01:02:14,396
Speaker 1: Bird Lawrence. Production support from Luke LeMond. Our executive producer

1125
01:02:14,716 --> 01:02:17,996
Speaker 1: is Jacob Smith. Special thanks to Sarah Nix and as

1126
01:02:18,036 --> 01:02:22,316
Speaker 1: always El Hafe Greta Cone. I'm Malcolm Glappo.