1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:03,279 Speaker 1: The Michael Barry Show. But I do think it's important 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: to hear from folks with different perspectives, lots of experience, 3 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: who are well respected in their field. John Berger is 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: one of those folks. He came highly recommended from a 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: from a number of folks. He co founded Conentango Capital Management, 6 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: a venture fund which focused on early stage energy technologies, 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: and everything John Berger has worked on is things that 8 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: I pooh poo all day long. And I think it's 9 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,279 Speaker 1: only fair to talk to folks and ask why are 10 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: you so high on solar? Why are you so high 11 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: on renewables, and just have him share his perspective. John 12 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 1: Burger is our guest. Welcome, Thanks Michael. 13 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 2: Great to be here. 14 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: That was kind of a backhanded introduction. I don't know 15 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: if you caught all that. I don't want to deny that. 16 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: And the reason was I didn't want you to get 17 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: all fed I told you this the first time I 18 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: met you. I didn't want you to get all fired 19 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: up over solar and me sit here going hm hmm, 20 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: and people at home go, you hate soldier, Michael, Why 21 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: are you lying? 22 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 2: All right? 23 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: So you were recommended to me as a guy who 24 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: has forgotten more about energy overall than most people will 25 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 1: ever know. I mean, I suppose we could put mister 26 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: Simmons into that category or rich Kinder. But let's start 27 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: with something that everyone cares about, and that is the grid. 28 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: You've been an advisor to FIRK, the Federal Energy Regulation 29 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,759 Speaker 1: Regulatory Committee, You've been around this a long time. You've 30 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: looked at alternate ways to monetize alternate energy sources. Where 31 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: are we on the Texas grid right now? Because my 32 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: fear as a Republican is going this is going to 33 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: bite Republicans on the rear and lead to a switch 34 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: and power in the state. But where are we in 35 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: grid bandwidth now? And where do we need to be? 36 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 2: Well, you know, we had a trying summer in twenty 37 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 2: twenty three and then last year and twenty twenty four 38 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 2: is actually pretty benign, really benign maybe from a power 39 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 2: plant producer's perspective, to benign in terms of the cash 40 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 2: flow that would go to these plants. And so you know, 41 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 2: why is it that we've been able to dodge some 42 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 2: of these bullets as a demand from you know, data 43 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 2: centers and restoring and energy terminals and a bunch of 44 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,119 Speaker 2: you know, just economic growth why have we been able 45 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 2: to dodge them these bullets And the answer is surprising, 46 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 2: is you know, solar in batteries, batteries in particular, I 47 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 2: think we're over to twelve gigawatt hours now and climbing 48 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 2: higher in storage. And that's been key and instrumental between 49 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: solar and storage to really solve problems, say for instance, 50 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: in last summer and as a great example of that 51 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 2: in August. So when you look at these technologies and 52 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 2: talk about them, look at them as technologies. You know, 53 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 2: I always say a solar panel never voted for either 54 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 2: a Democrat or a Republican, and it's just technology, and 55 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 2: that's what we need to be looking at, as well 56 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 2: as looking at and embracing our history with all the 57 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 2: fuels that I think are going to be needed for 58 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 2: a long time, specifically natural gas, and then looking ahead 59 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 2: to new technologies. Like you're a fan of Michael with nuclear, 60 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 2: I'm less enthusiastic, So I'll put that up there. Much 61 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 2: less enthusiastic about nuclear. I think it's fine to work ahead, 62 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: but we've got to understand that they're the problems of 63 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 2: cost and planning and getting these plants online has not 64 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 2: been solved yet, and those are really big problems. So 65 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 2: it's something. 66 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: John Berger is our guest. You might have known him 67 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: from Sonova or a number of other energy plays he's 68 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: been the leader of over the years. Coming up, it's 69 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: the excitement of O Sean the Michael Barry Show. Everything 70 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: you need and most everything you want. John Berger is 71 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: our guest. He is a committed energy buff in the 72 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: monetization and policy side of how we power things, a 73 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: subject I find of great interest because you know, we 74 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: can talk a lot about political issues, but energy is 75 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: probably the greatest issue we spend the least amount of 76 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: time on, and we I think of it only in 77 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: terms of what we pay for gas at the pump, 78 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: But it's so much more than that. It's so much 79 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: more than just what we pay in our electric bill. 80 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: Now start adding what you pay for gas, your electric 81 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: bill at your office, your company's electric bill, manufacturing, the 82 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: cost of airlines, the cost of a ticket to get 83 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,239 Speaker 1: here and there, the cost of heating and cooling your home. 84 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: All of these things affect your quality of life in 85 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: a massive, massive way. So, John, we were talking about 86 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: the electric grid. You've been very involved with renewables. I 87 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: am less bullish on renewables, but make the pitch, give 88 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: me the two to three minutes on why you think 89 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: renewables are important and the sort of standard criticism you 90 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: get of prioritizing those, and how you would defend that. 91 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 2: Certainly. So I think first and foremost, let's set aside 92 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 2: the pricing of carbon. You know that that is a 93 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,679 Speaker 2: you know, gluten. We can get into that argument about 94 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 2: whether it is or isn't and whether you know we 95 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 2: should or how we should ration carbon or not. And 96 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 2: so let's set that aside. Let's just look at these 97 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 2: uh solar, By the way, solar and wind have very 98 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 2: little uncommon I just want to make that point. One's 99 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 2: rotating machinery, one solid state. 100 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: No, they had a lot in common. You are right, 101 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: you are right, grant you that, you're grant you. 102 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 2: But I just want to make that point because that 103 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 2: that that that has a material difference. And let me 104 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 2: let me make this. One you can put on your 105 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 2: office building or your home, and one you can't, okay, 106 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 2: and that changes everything. And just like a battery, I'm 107 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:47,679 Speaker 2: talking to you on a phone that has a lithium 108 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 2: ion battery and it's the same technology that Tesla puts, 109 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: you know, Elon puts in the in the power walls. 110 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 2: So this is solid state technology, and it's again technology 111 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 2: that's getting cheaper and better, and we need to embrace it. 112 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 2: Just like electric vehicles I heard you talking about. You know, 113 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 2: will it replace the internal combustion engine or not? I 114 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 2: don't know. But what I do know is is that 115 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:12,679 Speaker 2: the Tesla I drive is essentially a big iPhone on wheels. 116 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 2: The way to think about it, there's not much to 117 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,359 Speaker 2: it in terms of cost structure. So we're seeing this 118 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 2: cost structure come down. And what we want to do 119 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 2: is and I want to think an issue with something 120 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 2: you said Houston being the energy capital of the country. 121 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 2: Now I'm going to say it's the energy capital of 122 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 2: the world. And to do that, we must embrace everything. 123 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 2: We must embrace oil, we must embrace natural gas, we 124 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 2: must embrace. Yes, advancement in nuclear technology, we can get there. 125 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 2: But solar and software and storage batteries of all types, 126 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 2: we need to embrace all that because we're going to 127 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 2: need all of it. It's not just us, but it's 128 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 2: the entire world. And so when you look at solar 129 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 2: and storage, whether it's in front of the meter, which 130 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 2: means by the utilities and the big power lines or 131 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 2: on your house, which we call behind the meter, it 132 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 2: is providing local power that a gas plant, a combined 133 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 2: cycle gas plant, one at scale, can't do. Now my 134 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 2: personal opinion, a combined cycle gas plant can do a 135 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 2: whole lot better job, even at these prices where gas 136 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 2: plants have gone to over the last three years, than 137 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 2: a solar farm. Okay, And so I think that the 138 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 2: point here is is that all this has a place 139 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 2: in the mix. And what I've said over and over 140 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 2: for over a decade is if you had to generalize 141 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 2: it and say, what does the future look like? I 142 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 2: think the future looks like centralized gas and decentralized solar 143 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,559 Speaker 2: and batteries, because that makes the grid, whatever the grid 144 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 2: is in the local area in this case Urkot in 145 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 2: Texas we're talking about, look more like the Internet, where 146 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 2: you have instead of just one way Soviet style command 147 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 2: control powers going down in place and you just have 148 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 2: loads at the endpoints of the system. Now you've got 149 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 2: all these small generators and big generators, you know, think 150 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 2: data centers, and think the iPhone that I'm talking to 151 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 2: you on, and it's all going in two directions. It's 152 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: a network and that's what's exciting about what we see 153 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 2: as the future. And so when you strip away to 154 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 2: politics here and just look at this, it's say this 155 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 2: makes sense. This makes sense together, it's not one of 156 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 2: the others together. And I'll make this point about Texas 157 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 2: in particular Governor Abbott and the governor's perform Governor Perry 158 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 2: and Governor Bush. I'll be very proud yet again, Texas 159 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 2: is showing not just the country but the world and 160 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 2: having leadership about having capitalism in the power markets. And 161 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 2: what I mean by that is what we don't realize 162 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 2: often as folks from Houston and Dallas, is that we're 163 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,839 Speaker 2: unique in the entire country. We're we're even unique to 164 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 2: the folks that live in Austin and San Antoni, and 165 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 2: that we have steparated the customer facing so think you know, 166 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 2: rely on energy Champions and so forth, from the actual 167 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 2: polls and wires, which is center point, from the actual generation, 168 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 2: which is you know, think NRG, Calpine and Constellation and 169 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 2: so forth. And that gives us a competitive marketplace that 170 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:11,719 Speaker 2: embraces new technologies and lets them say, okay, let consumers 171 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 2: choose what they want. If they want panels on their home, 172 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 2: they can get panels in their home. They want to 173 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 2: drive an EV, they can drive an EV. If they don't, 174 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 2: that's fine too. We are leading the country on that. 175 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 2: And I really say that the biggest thing that we 176 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 2: have going for again Texas is leading, as Governor Avans 177 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 2: should be very proud, is is that we're showing the 178 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 2: way about how to solve the power problem that we 179 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 2: are now talking about with almost on a daily basis 180 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 2: and in common conversation. The only way forward is to 181 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,439 Speaker 2: open it up, get consumer's choice and embrace capitalism. 182 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: John, you talked about the Texas approach and things we've done. Well, 183 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: I want to get a little more granular on what 184 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: you said, because the devil's in the details here. You said, 185 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: if folks want to drive an EV, well, the Biden 186 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: administration gave us seven five hundred dollars tax credit if 187 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:06,239 Speaker 1: you bought an EV. That is an alter that's altering 188 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: the marketplace. Secondly, if you said if you want to 189 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: if you want solar, okay, fine, but there have been 190 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: some very aggressive tax credits on solar and in fact, 191 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: the solar folks who send out these blast spam emails 192 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: the number one thing they push is not great energy, 193 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: stable energy, sustainable energy. It's tax credit, tax credit, tax credit. 194 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: So to me, when you are leading with tax credit 195 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: as your as what you're going with, it looks like 196 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: the Trump administration is going to pull away out of 197 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: the budget out of this this the one big bill, 198 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: the ev tax credit. But you're not just saying everyone 199 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 1: can choose. You are attempting to guide the consumer's choice 200 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: with a subsidy. 201 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 2: Well, that that's a fact. Now what's also a fact is, 202 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 2: again out of Houston Dallas, the rest of the country 203 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 2: operates the power industry or power industry as a Soviet 204 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 2: stylesist them and so that is massively subsidized as well. Okay, 205 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 2: and so what my view is drain this one, you know, 206 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 2: deregulations of you know, a four letter word. I understand that. 207 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 2: But you can call it consumer choice updating regulate the 208 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 2: regulatory landscape and the rules that govern the US power 209 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 2: industry to make it look like more like Europe. I mean, 210 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 2: for god's sake, I hate to say this, but you know, 211 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 2: the French are more capitalistic in their power industry than 212 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 2: we are outside Houston Dallas. And that's got to change, 213 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 2: and so when you embrace that and you take out 214 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 2: the subsidy that is the Soviet style system in power, 215 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 2: then I think we need to take a harder look 216 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 2: at all these credits and so forth and just and 217 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 2: get rid of them. And that's that seems to me 218 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 2: like a fair trade. If we can get everything on 219 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 2: a level playing field, then let the market work. Now 220 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 2: the separate question is mentioned earlier. How do we price carbon? 221 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 2: If we want to ration it, we want to tax it, 222 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 2: how do we do that? I personally don't like the 223 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 2: way that this country is alighted on tax credits and 224 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 2: subsidies to do that. I like a cap and trade 225 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 2: system and so forth, But that's a secondary question. 226 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:08,959 Speaker 1: Hold with me. John Berger is our guest. 227 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 2: More coming up, Michael Berry. 228 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,079 Speaker 1: Policy and practice should not be run by the government. 229 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: It should be within constraints regulated by the government. And 230 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: there are some places where you need regulation. I mean, 231 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,719 Speaker 1: most everybody understands you want to give some sort of guardrails. 232 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: Questions where would those guardrails be. John Berger is our guest. 233 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: He's been a policy advisor to the FERK, but he's 234 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: also been on the capitalist side, the private sector side 235 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 1: of how you make money, and it's important to understand 236 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: that it's the guys who are trying to make money 237 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: who are going to drive policy and who are going 238 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: to drive energy in practice as it should be in 239 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: every industry. John Berger mentioned a moment ago that deregulation 240 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:10,959 Speaker 1: is a four letter word. It's a nasty thing, is 241 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: a bad thing, it's a bad reputation. And I will 242 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: give you why. I think that is being the headquartered 243 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 1: town of Enron and having had a lot of friends 244 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: that worked at Enron, and many of you probably did 245 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: as well, and friends that did nothing wrong. They were 246 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: part of a company that was doing some things wrong 247 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: and doing some things very right. Some really smart. They 248 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: really were the smartest guys in the room. I do 249 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 1: believe that they just had some ethical lapses. There was 250 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: a deregulation of the energy market in California, and I 251 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,079 Speaker 1: think this is, more than anything else, what makes people 252 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: hate deregulation. So as this fire, this wildfire burned in California, 253 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: just as we saw recently in Palisades, there was audio 254 00:13:54,840 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: that later was turned over to regulators of energy traders 255 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,439 Speaker 1: and they say, burn, baby, burn, that's a beautiful thing. 256 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: Listen to this. 257 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 2: If you d forty five to one hundred, burn a 258 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 2: baby burn, that's a beautiful thing. 259 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: So this was reducing output, driving up prices, and Run 260 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: was getting rich off of it. So the audio files 261 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: that were handed over to regulators letter said he just 262 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: f's California. One in Run employee says that he steals 263 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: money from California to the tune of about a million. 264 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: That's a million a day. Will you rephrase that? Asks 265 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: a second employee. Okay, he he arbitrages the California market 266 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: to the tune of a million bucks or two a day, 267 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: So it's pretty nasty. The Inrun worker is heard in 268 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: the tape saying if you took down the steamer, how 269 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: long would it take to get it back up? Oh, 270 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: it's not something you want to just be turning off 271 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: and on every hour. Let's put it that way. Well, 272 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: why don't you just go ahead and shut her down? 273 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: Well this was later used as by utility regulators as 274 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: they were manipulating the market. It looks bad, and one 275 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: of the employees at Enron is caught on tape saying 276 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: they're effing taking all the money back from you guys, 277 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: all the money you guys stole from those poor grandmothers 278 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: in California. Response, Yeah, Grandma Millie Man, Now she wants 279 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: her EF and money back for all the power you've 280 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: charged right up, jammed right up her ass for efing 281 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty dollars a megawatte hour. It's bad. 282 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: It's very bad. In fact, the RUN lawyer who made 283 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: the submission made the statement that this doesn't prove anything 284 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: other than the fact that quote people at RUN sometimes 285 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: talked like Barnica, Bill the sailor what a line. John Berger, 286 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: as our guest, how much did that particular incident that 287 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: was seared into the nation's mind because Enron became the 288 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: picture of grotesque greed affect our ability to have a 289 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: deregulated within within reason energy market. 290 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 2: Well, I think people think about that, and Michael, you know, 291 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 2: quite a bit. But I'm gonna take a different tact 292 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 2: on that completely and say that that's not the reason 293 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 2: deregulation failed. There was a big trend in deregulation across 294 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 2: the economy, trucking, airlines, gas, natural gas, a lot of 295 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 2: different areas started in the late seventies and really took 296 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 2: hold in the eighties and finished up in the nineties, 297 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 2: and power was a part of that deregulation movement. Okay, 298 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 2: the problem is unlike was take telecommunications, fantastic analogy and 299 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 2: example you had in the nineteen nineties. We you know, 300 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 2: I'm going to date myself here, but remember the formation 301 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,919 Speaker 2: of the Internet and cellular technology was just coming to 302 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 2: the four for average person, and yet fiber optics. So 303 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 2: the point is you had a lot of new technologies, 304 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 2: distributed technologies. When you look at the Internet and cellular capability, telephany, 305 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 2: and and you look at power, what did you have Nothing? 306 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 2: There was no technology change. And so when you look 307 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,120 Speaker 2: at the big failures in the case of the power industry, 308 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 2: it wasn't just in RN We had a lot of 309 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 2: other bankruptcies too around town. It was you look at 310 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:35,679 Speaker 2: the telecom side, there were no you know, there were 311 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 2: scandals there. Remember WorldCom moobile crossing. Again, I'm dating myself, 312 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 2: But why didn't that stop telecommunication deregulating? Why didn't it? 313 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 2: I mean those are certainly in some cases more manipulated 314 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 2: and so forth than in run supposedly. So the reason 315 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 2: was the technology won and we didn't have technology changes 316 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 2: in power. We just got ahead of ourselves. We've got policy, 317 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 2: got ahead of the technology. Well, now we've got the 318 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 2: other the opposite situation. We've got solar, it's cheap, we've 319 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 2: got batteries, we've got software. We've advanced solid state technologies 320 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 2: like silicon based chips and software and batteries. Right, we 321 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 2: didn't even have lithium ion back then. It was in 322 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 2: very small quantities. We had it very expensive. But now 323 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 2: we have all this. Now we're behind on the regulatory side. 324 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 2: Now we need to open up the market and allow 325 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 2: these technologies to do things that maybe the vast majority 326 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 2: of us can't think about doing, creating new business models 327 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 2: at lower cost for consumers that we couldn't do. This 328 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 2: is why capitalism works and government does not. You don't 329 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 2: turn an industry over to a government. I don't care 330 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 2: what industry it is, and power is not immune. It's 331 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 2: not different. It is an industry that ought to be driven, 332 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 2: as you said, by for profit companies with rules with guardrails. 333 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 2: So we've got to update the regulation. We got to 334 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 2: make sure that people are protected with distributed technologies like solar. 335 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 2: Now you talked about going door to door. We need 336 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 2: to update these regulatory structures so that consumers are protected, 337 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 2: but we've got to do the work and then we've 338 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 2: got to get out of the way and let the 339 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 2: market do the work. And so when you look at 340 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 2: the difference here is heeblic communications had the technologies back 341 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 2: in the nineties. Power didn't, and now power has the technologies, 342 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 2: and I think that would be a world of difference. 343 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 2: Imagine you have your own power plant in your house, 344 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 2: whether it's your car or a solar or batteries or 345 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 2: a generator on your home, and now you can shut 346 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 2: that power off from the grid and just use your 347 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 2: own so you don't get jammed with bills. That is 348 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 2: the beauty of the market that we have here in 349 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 2: Houston and Dallas, and the rest of the country out 350 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 2: of take note and do like what Texas has done. 351 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: I do think there has been a great deal of 352 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: resentment at the consumer level that the ev folks, the 353 00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: solar folks, and I know you don't want to be 354 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 1: lumped in with them, wind folks, the alternative energy folks 355 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: that when they came in and tried to penetrate the 356 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:11,199 Speaker 1: market and first really got a lot of political influence, 357 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 1: especially during the Obama administration, there was this idea that 358 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: you had to trash the carbon based technologies that had 359 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: been with us for a long time, and you know, 360 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: you sort of say down with coal and up with electric. 361 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: I don't think you can have one without the other. 362 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: And I think there were a lot of people who 363 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: resented that, whether that be the coal industry or coal miners, 364 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: or the consumer who had his car turned off during 365 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: the Obama administration every time he stops at a red light. 366 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: I think those sorts of things really pissed people off 367 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: and affected how people think about these sorts of John 368 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: Burger's our guests, coming up of all the issues that 369 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 1: get the least public attention in the political realm, how 370 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:04,719 Speaker 1: much regular should there be or not, deregulation over regulation 371 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:11,400 Speaker 1: or not deregulation over regulation, guiding technology here, or they're 372 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: even allowing innovation or subsidizing innovation, How the consumer choices 373 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: will be made in the economics of all of that. 374 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: Subsidies certainly make a difference, whether they be on the 375 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: front end of the back end. John Berger is our guest. 376 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: He spent a career in this field, most recently at Sonova. John, 377 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: I got an email, let me see if I can 378 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: find it. Again. Let me ask you a question while 379 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: I'm finding this email. Can you skate backwards? Did you 380 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: have a roller skate as a kid? Found it? 381 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 2: I was never very good at it. 382 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,959 Speaker 1: I couldn't. I couldn't skate backwards. My brother could bothers 383 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: me to this day. All right, Roger writes, this energy 384 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: fella today was earn it, but kind of a zealot. 385 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: I had wanted to ask him about brownouts that Texas 386 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 1: has been firting with these past few years, specifically due 387 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 1: to over reliance on wind energy. How producing solar panels 388 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 1: and batteries and wind turbines hurts the environment during mining, production, 389 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: disposal nuclear natural gas. We will never run out, and 390 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: they're clean and reliable. Relying on these sources is not 391 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: Soviet style. It works in no brownouts. Your response, John burder. 392 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 2: I comment on the Soviet style with the regulatory structure 393 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 2: of the power industry and was not specific at whatsoever 394 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 2: to fuel type or technology generally. 395 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: Would you fight this guy? 396 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 2: Well, I don't know. If he's bigger than me, I 397 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 2: may not. 398 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: It's like behind door two. If the process is right, 399 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: you don't know. If it's showcase showdown, you don't know 400 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 1: what you're. 401 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 2: Going to get. Yeah, No, I prefer to talk to 402 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 2: things out to really make an understanding rather than fight. Yeah. Look, 403 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 2: I think that there's some good points here that you 404 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 2: made right before the commercial break, which was, you know, 405 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 2: people are upset about being forced into certain things such 406 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 2: as you know, maybe certain technologies and transportation and so 407 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 2: forth in state like California. And I sympathize with that, 408 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 2: I really do. And so again my position is is that, 409 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 2: you know, if there's always pros and cons to everything, 410 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think natural gas and oil is evil. 411 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 2: I certainly don't. I think that, Yeah, there's some problems, 412 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 2: but it's it's also something that when you look at 413 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 2: natural gas, it's it's cleaner than coal. That's a fact, 414 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 2: right in any way you look at it. So that's 415 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,479 Speaker 2: a positive. And and yeah, there's going to be some 416 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 2: chemicals that you use to make batteries and solar panels 417 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,679 Speaker 2: and such, and those can be you know, toxic and 418 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 2: how do you manage those quite effectively? And look at 419 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 2: permitting you're running the transmission line, or building the solar farm, 420 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 2: or building the natural gas plant, those all have the 421 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 2: same issues where we just I you know, are you know, 422 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 2: just wrapped around ourselves, and we can't get anything done 423 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,959 Speaker 2: no matter what it is. And so there's there's about 424 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 2: how do you level the playing field and then let 425 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 2: the market work. That's my point. And if he wants 426 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 2: to buy all the natural gas power, my god, I 427 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 2: think you ought to be able to do that, and 428 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 2: I fully support that. I think solar is cheaper. I 429 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 2: can I can point to that and batteries and and 430 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 2: that combination is really reliable. But I also would say that, 431 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 2: you know, I use natural gas as a good portion 432 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 2: of my energy system, and I'm not bashful about that, 433 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 2: and I'm not afraid of that, and I'm not ashamed 434 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 2: of it. And so it's all it's all the above 435 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 2: that the market works. For instance, let's look at this 436 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 2: reconciliation field, the tax credits, whether you want them to 437 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 2: go to zero or you want to phase out, which 438 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 2: is probably more of what the businesses want, like exon 439 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 2: and so forth. Is like, we need to have policy stability. 440 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 2: That's what businesses want. So that's what we need to 441 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 2: look towards. So how do what do you do with 442 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 2: those tax credits? But make it a level playing field, 443 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 2: for God's sakes, and the proposal in the House does 444 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 2: not do that. You know, what's what really calls me 445 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 2: about that is the credits indirectly and directly are structured 446 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 2: to go to the monopolies. Those aren't for profit companies, 447 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 2: those are in many cases literally government, the city, the 448 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 2: city governments, the federal government with TVA and so forth, 449 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 2: and so the federal and these government entities, these monopolies 450 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 2: get the tax credits that the homeowners pay for, and 451 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 2: the homeowners don't get a task credit. That's not right, 452 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 2: that's not American, that's not a little playing field. That's 453 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 2: tilting the field more to the Soviet style participants in 454 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 2: that industry. So that's you know, my arguments about how 455 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 2: do you get out of the way and let the 456 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 2: consumer make the choices and let the market work. 457 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: I think that's the real question, isn't it the extent 458 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: to which the consumer is driving? You know? I am 459 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: a big believer in free market economics, going back to 460 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: the simplest but maybe perhaps most profile own economist on 461 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: the subject being Adam Smith, but from Freedman to soul 462 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: on On through a continuous line, the idea that the 463 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 1: consumer will make the best decision because they will review 464 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 1: it long before yelp, and they will buy what's good 465 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: and reject what's bad, which brings me if you could 466 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: in a minute or less, because I'm short on time. 467 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 1: Why are you down on nuclear? John Berger is our guest. 468 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 2: I'm down on nuclear because it's the most subsidized thing 469 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 2: that we have in power generation period, not even close. 470 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 2: And when you look at why is that is you 471 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 2: can say that there is a crazy fear of a 472 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 2: nuclear meltdown, and when you look at the science, I'm 473 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 2: an engineer right from texting them, graduated texting them, grew 474 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 2: up there and Brian. 475 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: I notice you don't mention the Harvard because that would 476 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: be a black mark against you. A good move. 477 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I know what to emphasize here, but I 478 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 2: will say this, I don't go to the Harvard football games. 479 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 2: To go to and in football games, so hopefully we're 480 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 2: going to do well this year. But you know, when 481 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 2: you look at nuclear, the problem with nuclear is is 482 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 2: that while it's an irrational fear, and you look at 483 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 2: it from an engineering perspective, is my point. I totally 484 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 2: agree with that. The science is pretty clear, the math 485 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 2: is pretty clear on that, and I think You've made 486 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 2: that point on an earlier show weeks ago. But the 487 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 2: problem is is that that's not what the market perceives, and 488 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 2: you can't get insurance from a private sector. There's no 489 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 2: company on this earth, including Apple, that can afford that insurance, 490 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 2: and so the government has to do it. And there's 491 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 2: no place in this country that the citizens that live 492 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 2: in that state want that particular piece of property to 493 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 2: not be used by mankind for ten thousand years as 494 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 2: a waste disposal site. This is why Yucka Mountain decades later, 495 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 2: still is in operational for nuclear waste. So there's problems 496 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 2: here that we're not solving, that we're not thinking about. 497 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 2: And it's very costly. I mean, just look at the 498 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 2: latest nuclear power plant that the selling the company did 499 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 2: and they're always like, yeah, but we'll you know, we 500 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 2: just get cut from regulations. We'll do a better job 501 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 2: next time, and then the next time and the next time. 502 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 2: And it's it's South Texas back in the eighties, spark 503 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 2: the you know, the big part of power to the regulation. 504 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: Because Johnathan, I've got a question a minute, right. I 505 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: wanted to get to this because a lot of people 506 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 1: ask I'm gonna let you take it to the break 507 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: and thank you for being our guests. You've got till 508 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: the end of this of the segments about a minute. 509 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: How do you deal with battery disposal? You talked a 510 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 1: lot about batteries. It's a big issue. 511 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 2: Recycle. That material can be recycled, and that's part of it, 512 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 2: and that should be part of the regulation with batteries. 513 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: John Berger, thank you. 514 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 2: And that's fixable. 515 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: If you like Michael Berry Show in podcast, please tell 516 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: one friend, and if you're so inclined, write a nice 517 00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: review of our podcast. Comments, suggestions, questions, and in interest 518 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 1: in being a corporate sponsor and partner can be communicated 519 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: directly to the show at our email address, Michael at 520 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: Michael Berryshow dot com, or simply by clicking on our website, 521 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: Michael Berryshow dot com. The Michael Berry Show and Podcast 522 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: is produced by Ramon Roeblis, the King of Ding. Executive 523 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: producer is Chad Knakanishi. Jim Mudd is the creative director. 524 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: Voices Jingles, Tomfoolery and Shenanigans are provided by Chance McLean. 525 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: Director of Research is Sandy Peterson. Emily Bull is our 526 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: assistant listener and superfan contributions are appreciated and often incorporated 527 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: into our production. Where possible, we give credit, where not, 528 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: we take all the credit for ourselves. God bless the 529 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: memory of Rush Limbaugh. 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