WEBVTT - Ep. 089: Ghost of the Marsh 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.320 This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.319 bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:25.200 can't predict anything, all right. The first order of business 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:27.960 is I need to do a correction. We were talking 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:31.280 there day for a long time, long long time on 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:37.000 this same program about Ursus arctos okay, or the brown bear, 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:41.199 and I was talking about all kinds of stuff I 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:46.120 don't know the truth about, and am Dr Jarco wrote 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:48.559 in to clarify something to me. He was like, I 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:50.440 was saying, how I I don't know where I got 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:54.240 this in my head that ursus the old name for 0:00:54.720 --> 0:01:00.360 grizzlies was ursus horeblus, like horrible bear. But this guy 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:04.680 called in and clarified that in fact, it's that's like 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:11.280 an example of trinomial nomenclature, where it's ursus arctos horeblus. 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:17.520 Ursus arctos hereblas was and is a name for interior 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:20.600 brown bears, so like the grizzly bear would be ars 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:24.280 arctos horeblus. I thought that they dropped the horeblus because 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:26.200 it was like bad pr for the bears. But he 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:29.880 says that is not correct. He said No. He had 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:31.840 a couple of those gripes of things that I kind 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:36.319 of don't really agree with. Oh yeah, he clarified something 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:38.959 I also said that I used as an example of 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:44.840 trinomial nomenclature would be Ursus arctos arctos. He says, that's 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:49.120 perfectly valuable, value valid. But I should have pointed out 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:54.320 that that is Ursus arctos arctos is the Eurasian grizzly, 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:58.160 not found in North America. And he had a third 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:00.400 gripe where he said that, and I this is what 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:02.680 I kind of disagree with them about. I was talking 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:05.920 about binomial Norman clature, which is like the Lennean system, 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:09.919 where you have uh, for instance, Ursus arc toes, which 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:14.040 should be like northern bear. He was saying that the 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:17.560 second word in that, so if you like Homo sapiens, okay, 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:20.120 I used the second word like it was like genus 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:22.600 and species, but he said the second part of the epithet, 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:26.760 So in Homo sapien, the second part of the epithet 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:31.120 refer is just called that's just the species. It's not 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:33.400 fair to say that the second part is the species, 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.280 because the two things make up the thing. So they're 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:42.080 Dr Jarco. I'm saying your name right now. Second thing, Uh, 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:44.480 do you guys go with seeker Sicka? Because I hear 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:50.960 both ways you like I've been corrected. I used to. 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:53.080 When I first came here a year ago, I called 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:56.800 him Sicca, and I was corrected by some of the locals. Well, 0:02:56.840 --> 0:02:59.680 I think the locals are think. I don't know if 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:05.079 pauses a lot of confusion with the Sitka, the Sitka 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:09.720 black tail deer. Yep. But I have a hunting video 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:12.720 that Janna shared with me, called by by an outfit 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:15.680 called Chesapeake Pursuits or something like that, And those are 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:20.160 the first boys I've ever heard say Sica, not sca. 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:25.560 Mm hmm. Yourt an opinion about it? The locals, I 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:28.079 think say Sica. I say Sicca, did you do? And 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:33.200 you're the damn biologists, So I'm probably wrong the locals, 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:38.000 I think so because I say Seca to do let's 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:41.760 do intros as though dealing as though dealing poker. Um, 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:47.360 there's me and then there's yea, hon do no do 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:50.040 a big long intro, oh, big long intro. I just 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:55.280 don't have to just because yeah, he's no one. I'm 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:58.560 Marcia pratings, and I'm the project leader for the Chesapeake 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:03.760 Marshaland's National Wildlife Each Complex, which includes Blackwater National Wildlife Refuge, 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:09.360 Eastern Neck, Martin and Susquehanna. We're a significant percentage of all. 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:12.440 We're gonna go SICCA right now, I'm going Seek of 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:17.960 the whole show. You can stick with sick, stick with yeah, alright, 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:20.400 all the same thing. We're not talking about sick of 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:23.640 black tails? All right? You know what I'm going with 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:28.640 SICKA al right, which is where a significant percentage of 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:32.600 all I still can't decide if I want to go 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:36.960 with seeker sick of what do you recommend? I'm going 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:39.680 I'm going sick. I live here, so I'm going to 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:42.240 go with the locals I'm running. I'm running sick of 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:44.440 the whole program. Yeah, and you run SKA just out 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:50.240 of fairness, it's like to keep it bipartisan. So that 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:54.280 refuge complex is where a significant percentage of all the 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:57.560 sick of deer living in the United States of America live. 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:00.719 That's correct. You probably can't venture a guest though, as 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:07.560 to what percentage almost one percent between the refuge and 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:12.000 the state land um that represents a pretty big percentage 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:14.320 of the public of the public land, there are there 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:17.279 are a lot of deer on private land to um. 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:21.160 But yeah, the refuge system definitely holds a huge part 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:25.720 of the population of the of the total population. Yeah. Um, 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:28.120 anything else you want to add about your you want 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:32.640 to clarify what? Um? What what falls under your jurisdiction 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:36.000 there under your job title? Sure, Well, I'm the refuge 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:39.080 manager here at Blackwater, so I oversee basically everything that 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:42.360 goes on on the refuge, including our biological program, our 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:47.200 visitor services, our maintenance, everything from taking care of the 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:50.200 almost two hundred thousand visitors that come visit Blackwater each 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:53.800 year to taking care of all of our roads and uh, 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:56.560 you name it. So we make two hundred thousand count 0:05:56.680 --> 0:06:00.840 hunters because you run so you oversee the hunting programs. Yes, correct, 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:03.760 and that do you have a number on hunters that 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:07.880 visit your Yeah, we have about eighteen hundred individual hunters 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:10.120 that apply for permits each year, and they apply for 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:16.279 over permits different types of hunts. Yeah, so there's more 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:19.880 permits than hunters. Yeah, that's correct. If you look at 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:22.320 how our hunting season runs, you can apply for quota 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:24.920 hunts non quota hunts different days and so forth, so 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:30.000 that's why, and so one hunter might have multiple permits, right, 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:32.599 So that's why I distinguished. We've got about eighteen hundred 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:35.480 deer hunters, I should say, because we also have waterfowl 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:38.680 hunting and turkey hunting on the refuge too, to a 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:40.920 lesser degree. So even though you run a permit we'll 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:42.839 get into more that we'll get into this a greater detail. 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:44.840 But even though you run a permit system there, you 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:46.880 don't turn away hunters like anyone that wants to hunt 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:48.720 and get a crack at it. Well, we do have 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.200 it depends we have quota hunts where we only allow 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:54.599 so many hunters per unit, so they'll be limited in 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:56.920 that respect. In our muzzle loader hunts and our shotgun 0:06:57.040 --> 0:07:01.320 hunts get pretty full. Archery stays are our trees open yea, 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:04.120 and that goes from September eighth, the state opener, until 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:06.880 it ends at the end of January. So our tree 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:10.200 has been unlimited, all right. So jumping along on our intros, Steve, 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:16.000 Steve Kendrot, I'm a wildlife biologist with the USDA, but 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:19.840 today I'm joining you just as a avid sick of 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:24.000 hunter you're running sick of I'll run sick of today. Yeah. Really, 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:25.760 but if we're going to do that, we also have 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:28.400 to talk about he has a house in Dorchester County, 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:31.640 so yeah, he's you're a whole You're like a resident here, 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:34.360 your local Yeah sort of. I don't think the locals 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:38.360 ever consider anybody that ain't born here resident. But uh, 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:41.800 but yeah, I've been here for since two thousand two. 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:45.320 We've been pursuing the elusive secret deer or sick of deer. 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:49.240 I bounced back and forth. We're gonna start talking about 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:56.560 and bull miners. The locals talk about minnows and turtles. 0:07:56.600 --> 0:08:01.040 So yeah, there's a whole lexicon of interesting names for 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:05.800 critters down this way. I'm with you. Um. And then finally, Brian, 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:10.040 I am dear biologist for Maryland Department of Natural Resources. 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:14.240 So you're the head chief. You've kind of like these words. 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:18.440 You're the main dear biologists. Sure, but Maryland is a 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:21.600 small state. So yeah, there's there's we have. There's two 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.520 two dear biologists that work for the state, myself and 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:27.680 and uh George Tempco does urban suburban We have a 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.440 lot of urban suburban areas in the states. So we 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:33.480 have a biologist dedicated to trying to deal with whitetail 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:36.600 deer and and there's areas so, but I mainly set 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:41.400 mainly you know, UM, analyze harvest data overseas collection to 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:45.160 harvest data and biological data, any of the research we're doing. Uh. 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:47.679 You know, we've done numerous studies on one sick of 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:53.400 deer down here? UM and uh so yeah, are you um, 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:55.520 how long have you been doing that for? Um? I 0:08:55.600 --> 0:09:00.280 have been with d n R for sixteen years, and 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:04.760 I was involved with deer research before that through penn 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:07.440 State University. Um, so I've been I've been dealing with 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:10.560 deer for plus years. What got you wanted to do? 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:12.520 Was it deer hunting? They got you wanted to become 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:16.280 a biologist? Yeah, I grew up and I'm a Pennsylvania kids, 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:19.280 so I grew up deer hunting and and then and then, UM, 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:21.000 is it true that you kind of got away from 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.320 a little bit now that that's all you work on? Um? Yeah, 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:25.280 I got away for I escaped from deer for a 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:27.800 brief period when I was a fishing wildlife service and 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:30.400 then I got sucked back in. I did actually did 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:32.800 my master's down here on one stick on white tail, 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:35.560 and then I started with the stage or shortly after. 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:39.120 So do you still hunt? Yeah? Oh yeah definitely, so 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:41.839 not as much as I used to, um, because I'm 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:44.360 kind of working when everybody else is hunting. But yeah, 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:46.440 now do you here's a quick question for you. Then 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:48.520 we'll get into the main matter. Do you ever find? 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:50.760 Are you ever? Like, man, I wouldn't have got that 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.680 buck if it weren't for all my schooling? No? Or 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:55.839 does it totally different? Like being a deer biologist and 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:58.520 being a dude shooting deer is like two different things, 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:01.439 two different tool kids, different thing. Yeah, different things. Yeah, 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:03.120 when you you know, when you work with a deer 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:06.080 for forty hours a week, it's you know, it's changes 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:09.080 things a little bit. So I mean definitely the knowledge helps, 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:13.640 no question. The knowledge here that you pick up helps. Um. Yeah, 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:17.040 so so you feel that, uh like you feel that 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:20.480 being a your experiences as I guess because yeah, you 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:22.720 must look at so much like deer sign all the 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:25.679 time and just like well like learn to recognize areas 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.040 that hold a lot of animals and not Yeah, I 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:31.840 mean you know that you have that insight. Um. But 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:36.160 then also just the access to data, I mean, just 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:39.640 the data end up though. Yeah, you just know how 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:43.440 to mind it. Yeah, well I don't. I mean you could, yeah, 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:49.040 you couldn't mind it and use it. But yeah, um, 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:51.840 all right now I'm gonna go back to the beginning. 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:55.760 Who okay, why are the deer here? Just to clarify 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:59.559 this deer species sick of seka deer aren't if you've 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:01.280 never heard of them? Is because they're not even they're 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:06.199 not a native. They're not native wildlife, right, they're non natives. 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:08.840 And how well do you know the I know that 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:11.600 it's not totally knowable because there's some mystery about there 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:14.880 there there, where they came from and how they got here? 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:16.840 But can you sketch that out? Like why is it 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:21.319 that a little corner of Maryland has a huntable population 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:23.160 of a deer that no one's ever heard of before? Yeah, 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:27.520 it's kind of an interesting story. Um. They the subspecies 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:30.160 we have, So you were talking about your brown bears 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:34.720 and nomenclature. So the subspecies we have is service Nippon Yukushimi. 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:40.080 Um so there, and that's a Japanese subspecies, yakusha. And 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:43.200 they came from Yakushima Island off the southern tip of 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:49.239 Japan back in the early eighteen hundreds. They were apparently 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:54.200 imported from Yakushima Island into Ireland. Not sure what the 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:57.560 connection there was or anything, but so the deer we 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.719 have here didn't come straight from Japan. They they were 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:05.400 imported into Ireland. From Ireland, they were gifted to various individuals, 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:10.320 probably pretty important people, um yeah, and they ended up 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:13.040 in Britain, etcetera. And then at some point in the 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:17.160 late eighteen hundreds or actually early nineteen hundreds, Um, apparently 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:20.880 there were half dozen maybe um, that were gifted to 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:25.480 an individual here in Cambridge, Maryland. Has nothing to do 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:28.319 with this story. Not this story. Now, I didn't give 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:30.840 him some of these or something like that. Not Theodore Roosevelt. 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:32.920 Now he's not involved in this story that I'm aware of. 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:36.960 That Clement Henry was a gentleman's name told me that. 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:39.840 Did you tell me that I might have that? Dude. 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:43.480 I feel like every every non native story from back 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:46.720 then is like, yeah, someone gave Teddy six of these 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:50.319 or Teddy took six elk and shifted to New Zealand. 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:53.040 Right now, not not in this story that I'm aware of. 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:56.920 And who was the guy again, Um, Clement Henry was 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:00.120 the gentleman here in Cambridge that had him. And was 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:02.240 he thinking like was he like, you know what I'm 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:04.320 gonna do is I'm gonna take these deer and I'm 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:06.880 gonna cut him loose out in the marsh. No, he 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:10.240 had him in captivity. And I don't think the story 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:13.960 is real clear whether as he got too many in 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:16.320 captivity he would release them or if he just all 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:17.880 at once said hey, I'm getting rid of my dear 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:19.760 and I'm gonna stick him out here on James Island, 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:22.960 which is the mouth of the little chop tank. Uh see, 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:24.680 so he caught it. He thought maybe that did they'd 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.360 stay on the island. Yeah, I think that was probably 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:30.080 the thought, and you know put him out on the island. Um, 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:32.439 of course they didn't. You know, we were the let 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:35.040 Well the last hundred years basically there's been a slow 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:38.400 expansion across southern Dorchester. And is it true that he 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:42.439 may be cut looses to as few as two so 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:47.320 well he not it could have went further back than that, 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:50.119 but yeah, if you so, we had the Smithsonian Institute 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:53.280 look at some genetics work and this was back fifteen 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:56.200 years ago. Um. But their genetics work and then even 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.559 some more recent genetics work from University of Delaware UM 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:03.480 shows that there is basically no variation in these animals. 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:07.400 And so yeah, they probably our population probably started from 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:10.480 two individuals, and those individuals may even have been siblings, 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:15.760 is the way they have. But no, these animals are 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:18.320 doing great, so like a tremendous bottleneck. But then they 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.920 don't have a problem with nothing. Now if you either 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:24.960 over the years, different there's been different studies. They've looked 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:28.440 at parasite loads and just you know, general health, and 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:32.320 actually they are cleaner and healthier than our native whitetail deer. 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:36.360 Does that original island still have some Um, No, that 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:41.800 island at that time, the islands, Yeah, actually they still 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:44.640 do have that subspecies. But the interesting thing is we 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:46.800 probably have more, I'm sure we do. We have more 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:49.200 here than what they have over there. Has anyone ever 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.520 taken one from that island in Japan and one from 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:54.240 here and just stood them next to each other to 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:57.520 see if there's some visible Because when you just start 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:00.280 a population with a small amount, you could have some Yeah, 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:02.400 you would have some freaks, right, you could have some 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:07.600 unusual animals and then have create. If you look at 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:12.120 pictures on the internet, they're identical, you would say. If 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:13.760 you looked at one for a picture of one from 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:15.720 Yukushi mile and you think you were looking at the 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:19.240 Dorchester County sick. So when they first when he first 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:23.600 drive him in, were people trying to regulate them? No? 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:28.840 Early on, yeah, early on there weren't seasons in bag 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:30.680 limits for him, and they weren't very popular, to be 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:32.240 honest with you. You know, for as far as a 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:36.440 hunted hunted species go UM regulations really started in uh, 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:39.640 probably in the eighties, I guess was when with when 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:44.720 we started really got aggressive, you know, started recognizing, hey, 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:47.600 they may be an issue, they could be a problem, um, 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:50.040 and they started to be regulated in that manner to 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:52.720 try to not not to get rid of them. You know, 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:54.480 we never they kind of found a niche down here. 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:58.280 They're not like an invasive species like nutria. UM. So 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:01.160 we've never approached at that you with the philosophy that 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:03.920 we were going to eradicate them like neutria because they 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:06.880 have kind of found niche and they're they're popular, um. 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:08.640 But at the same time, we don't want a whole 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:12.880 del Marva Peninsula full of secondary either. So you do 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:15.160 not want that, No, no, we want to try to 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:18.560 keep them here in Dorchester. And but they've they've expanded. 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:22.760 They they're like expanding now slowly. Yeah, they have expanded. Uh, 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:25.640 you know they're in Delaware now. Um, we've had Delaware 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:28.440 has had a couple. What's their take on harvested? They 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:31.520 would prefer to keep them out. So it is there 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:35.840 is there a line around the known Like Steve you 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:37.760 were saying, is if you look at what do you 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:39.520 call the peninsula where I know we're on the del 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:43.960 Marva Peninsula, explain that just for people to to understand, Well, 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:46.040 that's that big chunk of land between the Chestpeake Bay 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:48.640 in the Atlantic Ocean, comprised of all of the state 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:53.080 of Delaware, the portion of Maryland that's on the eastern 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:56.040 shore of the Chesspeake Bay, and then the Virginia portion. 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:01.880 So del Marva how peninsula gets and what's the peninsula 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:03.520 that has all the deer if you look at it? 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:05.399 But does they have a name as a peninsula? Is 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:09.120 that just Dorchester County? Yeah, Dorchester County is is uh 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:11.879 sits between the chop Tank and the Nanacooke River, so 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:14.520 it it sort of forms a peninsula, I guess, but 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:16.960 it's not recognized as one. Yeah. And if you're looking 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.080 at a map and you find if you go to 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:23.760 Maryland and then you find Dorchester County, you'll see there's 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:26.960 a highway sort of a that that county sort of 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:30.000 sits on a peninsula, and there's a highway that kind 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:34.000 of cuts the the base of the peninsula diagonally fifty 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:38.480 Highway fifty right. And most of these deer live south 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:42.679 and west of that highway. Is that correct? Correct? Correct? 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:46.920 And it's about how many well, our modeling would put 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:50.119 it somewhere between ten and fifteen thousand. That's probably a 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:54.399 minimum um. We harvest three thousand a year, so you know, 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:56.280 I mean, if you look at a percentage, if you're 0:17:56.320 --> 0:18:00.320 harvesting of your animals, are side of that put you 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:03.199 in that ballpark somewhere between ten and ten and fifteen 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:07.600 thousand probably And is there like a has they won't 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:09.679 gone and drawn a band like if you say that 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:13.320 they're welcome here, because they're not. They're occupying one they're 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:19.560 very popular with hunters, and they're occupying a landscape where 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:22.439 they're not really coming into direct contact. They use the 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:25.040 area differently than white tails. They like to hang out 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:26.560 in places of the white tails don't like to hang out. 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:29.280 But has anyone ever drawn a line and said that 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:36.040 we will have zero tolerance for these deer across this line? Now, 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:38.119 we don't approach it from that, from that, you know, 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.000 to that black and weight of a degree, it's just 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:43.040 you know, like I said, we we would like to 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:46.199 keep them in in southern Dorchester. You know, they're in 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:48.760 there in why Comic Coo, They're in Somerset, a few 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:53.600 of them in Somerset. Um, generally they're expanding up our rivers. 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:55.920 You know then, whether it's the job Tank or the 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:59.200 Nanna Cooke, the Marshy Hope off Banana Cooke. Um, that's 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:01.240 how like they're fine in their way into Caroline in 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:05.040 some of these areas. Um. So you know, we'll just 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:08.320 tweak seasons and bag limits to try to to try 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.639 to keep that population here, you know, contained in Dorchester 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:14.000 as much as we can. But but now there's never 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:17.520 been really a hard line drawn. I mean, and do 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:19.920 you feel like you guys can can you like open 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:24.679 and close the valve pretty reliably by by tweaking hunting seasons. No, 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:29.600 we can't. Um, you know, we can do our best, um, 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.399 but we don't have enough hunters and a lot of 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:35.359 the locals down here would disagree with that. But in 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:38.159 all honesty, we don't have enough hunters and enough hunting 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:42.320 pressure to really regulate this species or port white tails 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:47.600 for that matter. Um. Our hunters are saturated. So you know, 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:50.200 I mean, what do you mean as far as seasons 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:53.280 at bag limits. I mean we're very we're very we're 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:55.680 very liberal. Yeah, they have we have it very. We're 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:57.520 in the good old days of deer hunting. You know, 0:19:57.560 --> 0:19:59.680 when you can hunt from September to the end of 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:03.120 jam neary Um and we have if your archery hunting 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:05.840 white tails down here, you can, we have there's no limit. 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:08.879 You can antler lists. You can harvest as many antlerless 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:11.879 white tails with archery equipment as you want in a 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:15.840 in a year. So you know, our average hunter takes well, 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:17.880 I think it's I think it's just two point zero 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:19.919 deer now was one point nine deer for a lot 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:22.200 of years. But our average hunter takes two point zero 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:24.119 deer a year because that's what they can use. And 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:25.720 that's you know, they're not going to waste deer and 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:28.960 and expend more efforts. So you know, and our hunter 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:31.800 numbers are fairly stayable. They've been stay able over the 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:35.199 last you know, ten years or so. But but we 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:37.280 have half as many hunters is what we have when 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:40.280 we peeked back in the seventies. Um and that's not 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:42.399 just a Maryland phenomena, you know what I mean, you 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:44.120 look at the East. Not so bad in the Midwest 0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:46.440 or the West, but in the East, I mean, hunter 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:49.800 numbers are really seriously declined. And um so as a 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:54.480 deer manager kind of concerns you. So there's how many, 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:57.040 like if you've if you have half, like half the 0:20:57.080 --> 0:21:00.879 participation you had in the sevenies, the generation to go, Yeah, 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:03.000 how many what what's the do you know? Like how 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:05.120 many how many more or less deer do you have 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.199 now than the seventies. Gosh, we have ten times as 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:12.240 many deer. It was way more deer for a person. Yeah, 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:14.800 So what were they doing back then? Well, you know 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:16.760 a lot of them weren't deer hunters back then. I 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:19.600 should I should clarify that, you know, I mean, I 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:21.919 mean that's when I'm saying, when I'm saying half as 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:25.919 many hunters. That's all hunters, so that's small game, that's waterfowl, 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:28.040 that's deer, et cetera. Because and we didn't have as 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:30.280 many deer hunters back then because there weren't as many 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:36.560 deer obviously. UM. So you know, we may have we 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:39.840 probably have more deer hunters now than what we had 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:43.199 in the seventies. UM, but it's just because of that 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:48.800 shift from small game. You know, we don't have pheasants anymore. Yeah, 0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:54.080 you probably don't know that history. That's that's for another time. Yeah. 0:21:54.160 --> 0:21:56.920 You know, well back in back in the sixties seventies, 0:21:57.400 --> 0:22:00.440 pheasants were really popular, you know, small games species, and 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:03.040 they still are in the mid you know, in the Midwest. UM. 0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:06.120 But a lot of our hunters when when when pheasants 0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:08.760 went away, they shift, Some of them shifted the deer, 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:14.000 some of them probably stopped hunting or just kept hunting waterfowl. UM. 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:17.240 So you know, we total numbers, we don't have near 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:20.240 the hunter effort that we that we used to have, 0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:26.479 UM and and and deer hunting days actual number of 0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:30.600 deer hunting days peaked in the nineties actually UM at 0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:33.080 about a hundred and I think we had probably a 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:36.320 hundred and seventy five thousand days of deer deer hunting 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:40.680 effort um, and now we have I think my last 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:45.520 estimate was about eighty thousand, So again about about half 0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:51.520 half as many hundred days going towards deer. But they're 0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:56.080 killing probably twice as many deer for that half effort. Yea, 0:22:56.400 --> 0:22:59.960 So are there more sick of deer now than anytime? 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:03.840 I'm in sick of deer history? Our models would say yeah, 0:23:04.160 --> 0:23:07.440 so the last now it bounces around, but but just 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:10.360 and just say the last five years. Yes, there's more. 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:13.280 Over the last five years, there's there's more secreteer sickredeer 0:23:13.280 --> 0:23:16.720 than than any common history. That population is increasing, Yeah, 0:23:16.720 --> 0:23:24.440 I'm going back to say population. So, uh, there is 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:29.560 the consensus that they're harder, that it's harder to hunt them, 0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:32.280 because here's the thing I was reading your report. Harder 0:23:32.280 --> 0:23:34.639 to hunt them than what harder than hunting white tails 0:23:35.080 --> 0:23:37.000 because they live so much longer than white hills, right, 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:39.480 which leads you to believe that it's like one of 0:23:39.480 --> 0:23:42.399 them has a That might not mean they're harder to hunt, 0:23:42.560 --> 0:23:44.440 it's just there's like a less chance that they're gonna 0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:50.880 die from something like ten year olds are common, right, Yeah, yeah, 0:23:50.920 --> 0:23:54.359 I don't know if i'd say common. But we've had 0:23:55.800 --> 0:23:58.399 We've probably had half a dozen that I know, or 0:23:58.560 --> 0:24:01.560 over twenty um that I've had my hands. The one 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:03.480 that we're tagged back in like the late eighties or 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:06.040 early nine. You know that you're not going by tooth analysis. 0:24:07.000 --> 0:24:08.960 Someone knows the year they hung a tag on that thing, 0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:10.920 so it was already alive when I got tagged. Yeah, 0:24:10.960 --> 0:24:13.720 we're and some of those were by tooth analysis, but um, 0:24:13.760 --> 0:24:15.800 but yeah, you know, I mean we've had, we've had 0:24:15.840 --> 0:24:18.280 them over twenty Again, they're not falling out of trees, 0:24:18.320 --> 0:24:20.880 but but yeah, it's not uncommon. They're definitely longer lived 0:24:20.880 --> 0:24:23.080 than white tails. Do you think they're longer lived than 0:24:23.119 --> 0:24:27.080 white tails? Because you probably can't even you probably can't 0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:30.199 know this. Absolutely they longer lived in white tails just 0:24:30.200 --> 0:24:32.920 because they're just they live longer just or is it 0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:36.560 because of predation is different on them? The other ones 0:24:36.600 --> 0:24:38.960 can chime in, but I would say predation is different 0:24:39.119 --> 0:24:42.440 as in, as in their their natural habits just make 0:24:42.520 --> 0:24:45.000 them a little harder to hunt. They're a little more nocturnal. 0:24:45.720 --> 0:24:49.080 The habitat they're in is just harder to hunt. You know, 0:24:49.119 --> 0:24:51.639 you always hear all they're smarter than white tails. I 0:24:51.960 --> 0:24:54.840 don't think they're smarter than white tails. Um No, they 0:24:54.920 --> 0:24:59.080 just living twelve foot tall. They live in twelve foot 0:24:59.119 --> 0:25:03.280 tall their security cover is just provides them an opportunity 0:25:03.280 --> 0:25:06.400 to escape hunting pressure and they'll turn nocturnal like that. 0:25:06.720 --> 0:25:08.959 Um yeah, they used they use the ground like how 0:25:09.119 --> 0:25:11.439 like a cotton til uses a briar pack. Yeah. Yeah, 0:25:11.560 --> 0:25:16.280 and uh, A lot of people in Maryland use bait 0:25:16.359 --> 0:25:19.399 as well, and I believe that bait tends to favor 0:25:19.520 --> 0:25:23.000 nocturnal behaviors as well. So despite the fact that you know, 0:25:23.040 --> 0:25:26.760 I think it enhances their hunting success, I actually think 0:25:26.760 --> 0:25:31.479 it contributes to less success. It concentrates the deer. They 0:25:31.520 --> 0:25:33.800 don't have to move as much. They're not exposed to 0:25:33.880 --> 0:25:36.160 hunters as they move across the landscape as they would 0:25:36.200 --> 0:25:39.560 if they had the forge for natural foods. So I 0:25:39.600 --> 0:25:43.719 think it helps to sort of keep them small home ranges, 0:25:43.800 --> 0:25:48.840 and that, you know, helps to minimize the pressure on 0:25:48.920 --> 0:25:51.159 an individual deer. So you do get some that that 0:25:51.240 --> 0:25:55.320 little lot longer. What I got a question Marsha's bating 0:25:55.359 --> 0:25:59.760 allowed on the refuge. Baiting is not allowed any of 0:25:59.760 --> 0:26:04.960 the refuges, and and and no public land, that's correct, 0:26:05.040 --> 0:26:08.400 no abating on public to private land early. But it's 0:26:08.440 --> 0:26:11.439 really heavily used that private land, right, Unfortunately it is. 0:26:11.960 --> 0:26:15.159 And we're like it's like a patchwork quilt of landownerships. 0:26:15.200 --> 0:26:17.760 So you've got Blackwater, it's a lot of contiguous land. 0:26:17.760 --> 0:26:20.720 We've got about almost thirty tho acres, but you've got 0:26:20.760 --> 0:26:25.000 these private landowners, a lot of sick clubs in particular 0:26:25.440 --> 0:26:29.280 pockmarking the whole refuge as well and cranking out corn yep. 0:26:29.400 --> 0:26:32.320 So it certainly impacts everything. So how how is it 0:26:32.400 --> 0:26:36.200 like on the from the refuge side of things, how 0:26:36.320 --> 0:26:41.040 is it determined by a national wildlife refuge to allow 0:26:41.119 --> 0:26:43.560 or not allow bait? I mean, is that something that 0:26:43.600 --> 0:26:45.919 would just is that something that would a decision that 0:26:45.960 --> 0:26:49.960 would be made in d C that would just apply 0:26:50.080 --> 0:26:52.760 to all refuges. Is that an individual decision that a 0:26:52.800 --> 0:26:55.439 refuge can make for itself. Well, that's a great question. 0:26:55.520 --> 0:26:58.359 Everything that we do as a national wildlife as a 0:26:58.440 --> 0:27:01.440 national wildlife refuge, all the ends on, is it going 0:27:01.480 --> 0:27:05.960 to harm or or improve wildlife? Conservation. So that's the 0:27:05.960 --> 0:27:08.680 first question we have, and we allow what we call 0:27:09.040 --> 0:27:14.320 the Big Six, which are six priority uses hunting, fishing, wildlife, photography, 0:27:14.400 --> 0:27:18.600 wildlife observation, ment, education, interpretation. These things are actually in 0:27:18.840 --> 0:27:21.919 a law called the National Wildlife Refuge Improvement Act of 0:27:23.520 --> 0:27:27.760 that says we're here for wildlife. That's the purpose. That's 0:27:27.760 --> 0:27:30.160 why we're dedicated, and we're on the ground. And each 0:27:30.200 --> 0:27:32.879 refuge will have a little bit different purpose. So, for instance, 0:27:32.920 --> 0:27:37.040 Blackwater is was formed in ninety three for waterfowl primarily, 0:27:37.760 --> 0:27:40.000 so that's our primary reason why we're here, and that 0:27:40.080 --> 0:27:43.080 was kind of in response to the great decimation of waterfowl, 0:27:43.200 --> 0:27:45.359 right like when when the refuge system started to spring up, 0:27:45.359 --> 0:27:49.640 it was part of a national effort to recover waterfowl. Yeah, 0:27:49.680 --> 0:27:53.200 and market, uh, the millinary trade was going on as well, 0:27:53.280 --> 0:27:56.359 so market hunting in general for waterfowl, for other types 0:27:56.400 --> 0:28:00.280 of birds, for thee yeah, the millinary trade in the 0:28:00.320 --> 0:28:03.280 early nineteen hundreds or people would kill e grits and 0:28:03.359 --> 0:28:07.440 even hummingbirds and so forth to put them in their hats. Literally. Yeah, 0:28:07.480 --> 0:28:10.320 we're talking about Roosevelt. If you read back to Roosevelt, 0:28:11.040 --> 0:28:15.040 you read his earlier writings. I mean he just rails 0:28:15.080 --> 0:28:17.680 against that industry. And because you used to be able 0:28:17.680 --> 0:28:19.200 to go out, I mean people would just go out 0:28:19.480 --> 0:28:24.160 and hunt any bird. You just go out shoot shore birds, herons, 0:28:24.200 --> 0:28:28.000 and you get your hands on to sell feathers, right exactly. 0:28:28.240 --> 0:28:29.880 It's kind of people are so familiar with that story 0:28:29.880 --> 0:28:34.480 about shooting buffalo for hides, right, shooting passenger pigeons for me, 0:28:34.560 --> 0:28:38.600 But people don't realize the decimation of non game birds 0:28:38.600 --> 0:28:42.080 and also that waterfall from market hunting for me, but 0:28:42.160 --> 0:28:45.480 also just the decimation of shore birds for guys for 0:28:45.560 --> 0:28:48.680 tricking out people's hats. Yep, they have these egret plumage 0:28:48.680 --> 0:28:51.920 in their hats, all sorts of really fancy hats and 0:28:51.920 --> 0:28:54.600 those pretty good money. Yeah. You read about guys making 0:28:54.600 --> 0:28:57.080 like small fortunes on it. Yeah. And and Teddy, the 0:28:57.160 --> 0:28:59.640 very first refuge that was ever formed was in h 0:28:59.720 --> 0:29:04.800 three by Teddy Roosevelt by executive order, was Pelican Island 0:29:04.920 --> 0:29:07.320 Off the floor. That's reading about that, Yeah, because people 0:29:07.320 --> 0:29:09.640 would just be they were just decimating the egrets and 0:29:09.640 --> 0:29:11.960 the pelicans and other types of anything out there for 0:29:12.080 --> 0:29:14.480 feathers in particular. Yeah, I tried to look down on 0:29:14.520 --> 0:29:16.120 those guys that were doing that too much, because I 0:29:16.120 --> 0:29:18.120 would have been if if I was alive at that time, 0:29:18.160 --> 0:29:20.560 I would have been totally involved in that business. Not 0:29:20.640 --> 0:29:22.000 a dubt my mind, because I don't know that they 0:29:22.040 --> 0:29:23.960 were really aware. I think people have a hard time 0:29:23.960 --> 0:29:28.760 conceptualizing like finiteness. Yeah right, so as always the visionaries 0:29:28.880 --> 0:29:32.360 right like this, the guy that was complaining then would 0:29:32.400 --> 0:29:34.240 be the same guy that's complaining about something now and 0:29:34.240 --> 0:29:36.160 people are brushing them off. Is that we're not like 0:29:36.240 --> 0:29:38.680 done making mistakes, No, not at all. You know, we 0:29:38.760 --> 0:29:40.920 all act like, oh, you know, it's so silly. And 0:29:41.040 --> 0:29:43.960 my dad always liked to joke that, um, they would 0:29:43.960 --> 0:29:46.280 put cigarettes in his sea rations during World War Two, 0:29:47.120 --> 0:29:49.440 so like every meal, you guy had three cigarettes in it, 0:29:50.000 --> 0:29:53.400 and then we laugh about it now. But right now 0:29:53.440 --> 0:29:57.080 we're making right now, we're doing something is equally stupid 0:29:57.800 --> 0:29:59.920 that our children will laugh about that. We didn't realize 0:29:59.920 --> 0:30:02.760 how stupid it was, Like we're not you know, we 0:30:02.840 --> 0:30:06.440 never There's an inexhaustible supply of mistakes people make and 0:30:06.440 --> 0:30:08.560 then later get hindsight. So at the time, I think 0:30:08.640 --> 0:30:11.440 Roosevelt was like criticized for how much he griped about it, Yeah, 0:30:11.600 --> 0:30:14.080 putting an end of the good times. We got a 0:30:14.120 --> 0:30:16.440 earful yesterday about a guy, Um, we got a earful 0:30:16.520 --> 0:30:21.200 yesterday by a guy who's uh uh it sounds like 0:30:21.280 --> 0:30:24.400 very upset about any form of bag limits or regulations 0:30:25.720 --> 0:30:30.680 ruining people's livelihoods. So yeah, yeah, So everything we do 0:30:30.720 --> 0:30:32.160 on the refuge, we look at is it going to 0:30:32.240 --> 0:30:35.200 be compatible with wildlife conservation and is it going to 0:30:35.320 --> 0:30:36.960 hurt by a diversity? Is it going to hurt the 0:30:37.000 --> 0:30:39.480 purposes of the refuge in particular? And when you look 0:30:39.520 --> 0:30:42.040 at baiting, there's a lot of impacts that come from baiting. 0:30:42.120 --> 0:30:44.440 Besides the fact you're like all the things we we 0:30:44.560 --> 0:30:48.440 just talked about your impacting those species, you're also going 0:30:48.520 --> 0:30:50.520 to be what do people do to get their corn 0:30:50.560 --> 0:30:55.719 out there? They take quads, all sorts of Yeah, they 0:30:55.800 --> 0:30:59.840 end up ruining the ground. And it's a big impact 0:31:00.040 --> 0:31:03.360 on the perspective I mean too. I mean just it's 0:31:03.440 --> 0:31:06.880 it's you got the biological issue of baiting, and you know, 0:31:06.960 --> 0:31:08.840 and the disease issues that get along with that. But 0:31:08.880 --> 0:31:11.080 then on public l and you got that whole social issue. 0:31:11.120 --> 0:31:13.680 I mean, somebody puts bait out and then the next 0:31:13.720 --> 0:31:16.400 time I gets there before the guy to put the 0:31:16.400 --> 0:31:18.720 bait out and sets up over You can imagine that. 0:31:19.040 --> 0:31:21.440 You can imagine that would go. Yeah, when I was 0:31:21.480 --> 0:31:26.040 growing up there, Yeah, when I was growing up, it 0:31:26.080 --> 0:31:27.960 was funny because you could at the time it was 0:31:28.480 --> 0:31:30.200 baiting was wide open, like when I grew up in 0:31:30.240 --> 0:31:34.040 Michigan for deer. Later they started putting later because the 0:31:34.200 --> 0:31:36.400 disease issues and the other things. They started putting limits 0:31:36.400 --> 0:31:38.680 on time when you put it out there. But we 0:31:38.760 --> 0:31:41.200 used to go down and you could buy this, I'm 0:31:41.200 --> 0:31:43.200 not joking. We go to Grant, Michigan, and you could 0:31:43.240 --> 0:31:47.920 fill a pickup truck up with reject carrots, misshaping carrots 0:31:48.800 --> 0:31:51.600 with like that look like weird anatomical features, you name it, 0:31:51.640 --> 0:31:53.480 Like carrots that were not like when you go buy 0:31:53.520 --> 0:31:55.640 a bag of carrots and they're all just like these 0:31:55.680 --> 0:31:59.200 beautiful straight carrots that that's like one in three. The 0:31:59.280 --> 0:32:04.000 rest go for jews and pulp and animal fodder. But 0:32:04.040 --> 0:32:06.400 you could you could fill a truck for five bucks 0:32:07.680 --> 0:32:11.320 and then you'd go dump it out in the woods. 0:32:11.360 --> 0:32:13.400 And we even griped about it, but it was like 0:32:13.760 --> 0:32:16.200 we griped about it because we were aware that it 0:32:16.200 --> 0:32:20.840 really changed the way dear act pushing them towards being nocturnal, 0:32:20.920 --> 0:32:23.040 changing their travel patterns. But it was like, if you 0:32:23.080 --> 0:32:26.000 can't beat them, join them, And that's the philosophy in 0:32:26.080 --> 0:32:28.520 Maryland today. So we would be like, yeah, it sucks 0:32:28.640 --> 0:32:30.840 that you can bait. Let's go put the bait out right, 0:32:31.400 --> 0:32:34.680 Because if I had to do childhood all over again, 0:32:34.720 --> 0:32:36.400 I would take a different approach and I would just 0:32:36.440 --> 0:32:39.640 not do it because I feel like, you're not um. 0:32:39.680 --> 0:32:41.520 I would not do it out of some moral thing. 0:32:41.600 --> 0:32:43.120 I just feel like I would have learned so much 0:32:43.160 --> 0:32:47.080 more about animals had you looked at had you been 0:32:47.120 --> 0:32:49.840 able to go look at like, well where are they naturally? 0:32:50.600 --> 0:32:52.600 Instead of like where can I make them go? It's 0:32:52.640 --> 0:32:55.080 just a much more interesting lesson, Like you can learn 0:32:55.160 --> 0:32:58.080 that like, yes, I learned the really interesting thing that 0:32:58.160 --> 0:33:01.440 dear love carrots, or you could have learned like what 0:33:01.480 --> 0:33:03.960 our deer doing when they're not eating on the carrots 0:33:04.040 --> 0:33:05.840 you stuck out in the work. I call it scouting 0:33:05.880 --> 0:33:11.000 in the bags in my mind. Yeah, well yeah, and 0:33:11.040 --> 0:33:12.720 this is coming from a guy that gage like I'm not, 0:33:12.920 --> 0:33:15.080 like I said, I can hardly can condemn it because 0:33:15.080 --> 0:33:17.120 it was something I was heavily engaged in from the 0:33:17.120 --> 0:33:20.560 time I was well and it legally bow hunt at twelve. 0:33:20.680 --> 0:33:22.280 I was running bait from the time I was twelve 0:33:22.320 --> 0:33:23.840 at the time I was eighteen. Yeah, and I mean, 0:33:23.840 --> 0:33:26.320 and it does have its It does have its usefulness. 0:33:26.360 --> 0:33:27.760 I mean, you know, like I said, we struggle with 0:33:27.840 --> 0:33:30.320 urban and suburban deer issues all the time. In therese 0:33:30.400 --> 0:33:33.400 cases where it does give you access to deer that 0:33:33.480 --> 0:33:35.960 you otherwise may not. You know, if you if you 0:33:36.000 --> 0:33:39.600 have a refuge of deer, not not national wilde refuge, 0:33:39.640 --> 0:33:41.720 but just an actual you know, a natural refuge where 0:33:41.720 --> 0:33:44.520 you can't get to deer hunt them, you know, you 0:33:44.600 --> 0:33:46.320 might be able to bait and pull some of those 0:33:46.360 --> 0:33:48.640 deer over to an area where you can so. So 0:33:48.720 --> 0:33:51.640 it does have some usefulness. But but you know, I 0:33:51.680 --> 0:33:54.680 wish our hunters, like you said, I mean, we need 0:33:54.720 --> 0:33:56.800 to get back to some more woodsman ship. This year 0:33:56.880 --> 0:33:59.000 is a great example. It's a really good acorn year 0:33:59.040 --> 0:34:03.360 in Maryland. This year, there's acorns everywhere. Deer are gonna 0:34:03.360 --> 0:34:05.760 be on acorns. They're not going to go to corn. 0:34:06.560 --> 0:34:09.640 Our hunters are going to continue to sit on corn 0:34:10.239 --> 0:34:12.960 not see any deer because the deer at the nearest 0:34:12.960 --> 0:34:15.080 white oak or you know, red oak or black oak 0:34:15.200 --> 0:34:18.640 or whatever. So success is going to go down. Um, yeah, 0:34:18.760 --> 0:34:21.200 no doubt. I mean any state in the appellation can 0:34:21.239 --> 0:34:24.239 show you data that when we have a good mass year, 0:34:25.120 --> 0:34:28.719 deer kill goes down and that that's why because there's 0:34:28.760 --> 0:34:31.799 deer on acorns and you know they're not they don't 0:34:31.800 --> 0:34:35.120 have to move as much for food so well, or 0:34:35.160 --> 0:34:37.360 even the states that don't have that don't allow baiting 0:34:37.480 --> 0:34:40.200 still show that draw They even those states show that 0:34:40.280 --> 0:34:44.520 dropping in the harvest because there's more dispersed. The hunters 0:34:44.520 --> 0:34:47.040 are not adapting or is that it that the deer 0:34:47.080 --> 0:34:49.960 actually harder to hunt, Well, they're they're harder to hunt 0:34:49.960 --> 0:34:51.920 in a way because yeah, they are more scattered and 0:34:52.040 --> 0:34:54.880 more you know, you can't pattern them as well. Um, 0:34:54.920 --> 0:34:57.440 but you just have you know, I think we have 0:34:57.520 --> 0:35:02.000 a generation of hunters that that don't think about natural 0:35:02.080 --> 0:35:06.319 behavior and natural food sources and you know, and where 0:35:06.360 --> 0:35:08.920 to spend your time trying to trying to get to 0:35:08.960 --> 0:35:11.480 there's there's animals. You know, I think there's a lot 0:35:11.560 --> 0:35:14.200 of biological evidence out there that said we shouldn't be 0:35:14.239 --> 0:35:16.280 you know that there's really a lot of reasons not debate. 0:35:16.480 --> 0:35:18.719 I mean, chronic wasting disease is a big one. I 0:35:18.719 --> 0:35:21.160 mean we have chronic wasting disease in the region, you know, 0:35:21.200 --> 0:35:24.279 in Maryland. Um So, No, I think there's plenty of 0:35:24.280 --> 0:35:26.879 biological reasons. That being said. Like I said, there are 0:35:26.920 --> 0:35:30.400 areas where baiting is useful, and we have always been 0:35:30.440 --> 0:35:33.719 a baiting steak, like Michigan. Um. And it's not going 0:35:33.760 --> 0:35:36.600 to go away. No, No, it's not. I think in 0:35:36.640 --> 0:35:38.920 fifty years it will. Well maybe in fifty years it might. 0:35:39.520 --> 0:35:41.400 We won't have we won't we won't have any hunters 0:35:41.400 --> 0:35:46.160 in fifty We've got bigger problems. Yeah, Oh, there's gonna be. 0:35:46.239 --> 0:35:49.480 There's gonna be. There will be people cranking only at it. 0:35:49.920 --> 0:35:54.200 I hope, hope were it would be tough and force 0:35:54.280 --> 0:35:58.279 because it's you know, private land, and how many game 0:35:58.320 --> 0:36:00.759 wardens would you need to patrol all the private land 0:36:00.760 --> 0:36:02.960 that we have here? And yeah, but on unenforceable stuff 0:36:02.960 --> 0:36:04.879 you want, you just wind up getting a lot of 0:36:05.800 --> 0:36:08.399 you know, I mean, sure you're gonna have you're gonna 0:36:08.400 --> 0:36:11.520 have some number of people who aren't gonna follow the rules. 0:36:11.680 --> 0:36:13.399 But a lot of people just follow the rules because 0:36:13.400 --> 0:36:15.640 of the rule. Yeah, that's true. I don't think it's 0:36:15.640 --> 0:36:18.879 always like because you've got a club hanging over your head. Yeah, 0:36:18.920 --> 0:36:22.319 I agree. You know, we've always had that philosophy. You know, 0:36:22.400 --> 0:36:25.520 you can't you can't. You can't set rigs for the 0:36:25.560 --> 0:36:28.759 for the dishonest guy or now, because they're going to 0:36:28.800 --> 0:36:30.400 find a way to around the system, to break the 0:36:30.480 --> 0:36:33.160 law regardless. So you know, I mean, the vast majority 0:36:33.160 --> 0:36:35.880 of our hunters will you know, they'll obey whatever we 0:36:35.920 --> 0:36:38.160 put out there. Like this morning, walking out, we could 0:36:38.160 --> 0:36:40.239 have shot a deer in the dark with flashlights. Yea, 0:36:41.520 --> 0:36:44.400 once we've gotten swamp. But it wasn't like, you know, 0:36:44.560 --> 0:36:47.080 you're not thinking yourself like how that they'll never catch us, 0:36:47.600 --> 0:36:50.719 right because we're both hunting, you know. Well yeah, but 0:36:50.840 --> 0:36:54.640 you know, just personal ethics, a lot of us won't 0:36:54.640 --> 0:36:57.840 shoot a deer in a certain circumstance just because it 0:36:57.880 --> 0:37:00.520 doesn't match what we think is either fair chase or 0:37:00.520 --> 0:37:03.799 an ethical harvest or you know what you came here for. 0:37:04.280 --> 0:37:07.680 You know. Yeah, I'd be easy to walk two steps 0:37:07.760 --> 0:37:10.200 down from the parking lot and have a deer pop 0:37:10.280 --> 0:37:13.040 up and shoot it. But that's not kind of why 0:37:13.120 --> 0:37:15.040 I'm out there. You know, I wanna have to work 0:37:15.080 --> 0:37:16.760 for it and learn from it. You wanted to happen 0:37:16.800 --> 0:37:19.360 in a way that you wanted to happen in a 0:37:19.400 --> 0:37:23.160 way that you laid out. Yeah, you know an interesting 0:37:23.200 --> 0:37:26.880 thing that Steve's friend we're gonna get back for talk 0:37:26.920 --> 0:37:32.160 about bear with me, but your friend had an interesting observation. Uh. 0:37:33.600 --> 0:37:39.359 Steve's friend Matt was saying that his uh wife has 0:37:39.400 --> 0:37:42.200 some like she likes the only wild meat. But he 0:37:42.239 --> 0:37:44.920 was joking that there's like a rule that she prefers 0:37:44.920 --> 0:37:49.880 that if it hadn't looked at him, that it was 0:37:50.040 --> 0:37:52.480 unaware of his presence. You know, talk about like having 0:37:52.880 --> 0:37:55.680 like a strict code of how you want things to 0:37:55.719 --> 0:37:57.920 play out. There's like this idea. But when he said that, 0:37:57.960 --> 0:38:01.279 it resonated with me because I was like, when I'm 0:38:01.280 --> 0:38:03.319 telling the hunting story, I always like to point out, 0:38:03.360 --> 0:38:04.920 as you many other hunters, I'm like, and it never 0:38:05.000 --> 0:38:08.600 knew I was there, which you think is sort of 0:38:08.640 --> 0:38:12.799 like a positive right when you're hunting, You like, it's 0:38:12.800 --> 0:38:15.399 a positive if you I feel like, if you get 0:38:15.440 --> 0:38:18.960 an animal that didn't know you were present, because it 0:38:19.800 --> 0:38:23.600 suggests some level of like sneakiness, right, or some level 0:38:23.600 --> 0:38:25.480 of that you were in its space, that it being 0:38:25.520 --> 0:38:28.439 unaware of your space. But that puts together this other 0:38:28.480 --> 0:38:33.640 idea that it's like, um, there was never a relationship 0:38:34.239 --> 0:38:40.279 between you in the animal where you lock eyes, So 0:38:40.320 --> 0:38:42.839 it might be like how that might be kind of 0:38:42.920 --> 0:38:45.000 partially what I feel when I feel that it's so 0:38:45.080 --> 0:38:48.280 important or so positive to get an animal that didn't 0:38:48.320 --> 0:38:51.800 know you were there, is because we never established a report. 0:38:53.200 --> 0:38:57.480 I had an experience once I had perfect stocking conditions, 0:38:57.880 --> 0:39:00.239 saw a dough bed down in some golden and I 0:39:00.280 --> 0:39:03.200 managed to stock with him ten yards of that deer, 0:39:03.239 --> 0:39:05.319 and she never knew I was there, and I had 0:39:05.360 --> 0:39:07.800 to wait and wait and wait for her to stand 0:39:07.840 --> 0:39:10.120 up and offer me a shot. And this whole time 0:39:10.160 --> 0:39:12.719 I could watch her chewing her cut and just completely 0:39:12.760 --> 0:39:15.640 oblivious to my presence. And when the moment came and 0:39:15.760 --> 0:39:19.000 she stood up, I pulled back and I flubbed probably 0:39:19.000 --> 0:39:21.560 one of the easiest shots right over back. And to 0:39:21.640 --> 0:39:23.160 this day I think it's in my head. I just 0:39:23.280 --> 0:39:25.800 I couldn't kill that deer after that, having that experience 0:39:25.840 --> 0:39:27.839 with it, you know, it'd become like your pet. I've 0:39:27.840 --> 0:39:31.720 had that, having staring through binoculars where you watch buck 0:39:31.760 --> 0:39:34.160 bed down at nine o'clock in the morning and then 0:39:34.400 --> 0:39:36.640 you get set up for the shot and you wait 0:39:36.719 --> 0:39:39.279 it's three pm until the buck finally stands up and 0:39:39.320 --> 0:39:42.600 you've watched it change position in its bed, you know, 0:39:42.680 --> 0:39:46.000 groom itself to it's cud, fall over, you know, watch 0:39:46.040 --> 0:39:48.640 his antlers hit the ground while he's sleeping, get back up, 0:39:48.800 --> 0:39:50.879 you know, watch all that. And then by the time 0:39:50.920 --> 0:39:53.319 they're like shooting times, you know it's coming. You're kind 0:39:53.320 --> 0:39:56.600 of like, maybe he'll get away, you know, now that 0:39:56.719 --> 0:39:58.879 ever happens when I'm on the trigger, But if I'm 0:39:58.880 --> 0:40:01.279 like looking for someone else some kind of maybe they'll 0:40:01.280 --> 0:40:04.400 get away, especially they do something cute like turn around 0:40:04.400 --> 0:40:08.399 and kind of nibble or groom. Uh no, I don't 0:40:08.400 --> 0:40:13.040 have that. So back to the refuge do do so 0:40:13.200 --> 0:40:15.720 hunters that come out to hunt, like on the refugees 0:40:15.760 --> 0:40:21.759 that primarily that's like people hunting, Yes, big game, Yeah, 0:40:21.920 --> 0:40:25.160 that's the big species. Yeah, there's white tail too, but 0:40:25.239 --> 0:40:28.319 like last year we did what three and fifth We 0:40:28.400 --> 0:40:33.120 harvested three and only seventy seven white tail, So there 0:40:33.120 --> 0:40:35.240 are some white tails out there. And do people complain 0:40:35.320 --> 0:40:40.239 about do people complain about the lack of baiting. I 0:40:40.320 --> 0:40:43.400 haven't heard that yet. I think because it's been that 0:40:43.440 --> 0:40:48.880 way for a long time, it's just accepted. It's just accepted. Yeah, 0:40:48.920 --> 0:40:51.240 that it's not that that's just not feasible on public 0:40:51.360 --> 0:40:53.840 lands for all the reasons that we talked about. And 0:40:53.920 --> 0:40:56.080 it gives you a different type of hunting experience too. 0:40:56.239 --> 0:40:57.719 If you want to go out there and look for 0:40:57.840 --> 0:41:01.520 sign and look for follows and try and find a 0:41:01.520 --> 0:41:03.239 good trail, try and figure out where are they coming 0:41:03.239 --> 0:41:06.239 from the marsh to the woods at what time. It's 0:41:06.239 --> 0:41:08.719 a great experience that you won't get elsewhere. Do you 0:41:08.719 --> 0:41:13.200 have you ever like figured out success like have you 0:41:13.200 --> 0:41:14.960 guys looked at have you of you any kind of 0:41:14.960 --> 0:41:20.200 idea of success rates for the refuge, like like like 0:41:20.320 --> 0:41:23.800 dear per hunter hour or any dear per day or 0:41:23.800 --> 0:41:26.520 anything like that. No, we haven't done that. We haven't 0:41:26.560 --> 0:41:28.480 done that yet. You killed? How tell me how many 0:41:28.480 --> 0:41:30.920 you killed? Like last year or not? How many? Yea 0:41:32.200 --> 0:41:35.279 three fifty sick and seventy seven white tail? And how 0:41:35.280 --> 0:41:37.760 many individuals? Do you have a guess how many individual 0:41:37.800 --> 0:41:39.680 hunters rolled through the refuge? Yeah? I think we had 0:41:39.719 --> 0:41:44.359 sevent permits sold for deer waterfall. No, that's just dear. 0:41:44.600 --> 0:41:47.960 That's just dear. Now do some people buy permits and 0:41:48.000 --> 0:41:50.799 not show up that year? Yeah? Do some people show 0:41:50.880 --> 0:41:53.480 up and hunt a whole ton? Yeah? And so this 0:41:53.520 --> 0:41:56.799 past year we asked on the permit application for the 0:41:56.840 --> 0:41:59.520 first time, how many how many days on average did 0:41:59.560 --> 0:42:01.560 you hunt last year? Because we're trying to get a 0:42:01.600 --> 0:42:05.560 feel for for exactly that. What's your sense of it, 0:42:05.760 --> 0:42:07.399 like are there? Is it kind of like everything where 0:42:07.400 --> 0:42:09.000 you feel that there's some people that put in the 0:42:09.040 --> 0:42:11.919 time and they do real well, and some people that don't. 0:42:11.960 --> 0:42:14.959 They don't Oh yeah, Is it kind of like a meritocracy? Yeah? 0:42:15.000 --> 0:42:16.640 I mean yeah. The folks that are willing to get 0:42:16.640 --> 0:42:19.560 out there put in the time, deal with the mosquitoes. 0:42:19.600 --> 0:42:21.240 I mean, you know, I was out there on opening 0:42:21.280 --> 0:42:24.280 day September eight, and it was pretty brutal that first 0:42:24.560 --> 0:42:27.279 well actually the whole month. When it comes to heat 0:42:27.280 --> 0:42:29.239 and mosquitoes and things like that, a lot of people 0:42:29.280 --> 0:42:31.799 aren't out there putting that putting that time in. So 0:42:31.840 --> 0:42:33.600 if you're willing to put on the chest waiters and 0:42:33.640 --> 0:42:35.960 get out into the marsh and try and go where 0:42:35.960 --> 0:42:39.000 other people don't go and figure it out they'll be successful. 0:42:39.160 --> 0:42:42.720 So what's access like there? So we've got a number 0:42:42.719 --> 0:42:46.160 of different units. We've got parking lots and roads back there, 0:42:46.200 --> 0:42:48.319 So it depends. Some of the units are easier to 0:42:48.360 --> 0:42:50.960 access than others. Some you can park and you can 0:42:51.000 --> 0:42:52.960 go out into open woods and never need to put 0:42:52.960 --> 0:42:55.800 on waiters. Others you could be you could be walking 0:42:55.880 --> 0:42:58.640 quite a bit out in marsh that's really falling apart. 0:42:58.719 --> 0:43:01.399 So you take one two steps and then you fall 0:43:01.440 --> 0:43:03.920 through a hole. And what about using canoes and kayaks 0:43:03.920 --> 0:43:07.080 if people do that? Yeah, for the uh, this year 0:43:07.120 --> 0:43:09.440 is the second year that we've allowed boat access to 0:43:09.560 --> 0:43:13.319 certain units. Yep. So, and that's been a little bit 0:43:13.360 --> 0:43:15.960 controversial as well because the people who are able to 0:43:16.000 --> 0:43:18.560 walk back to those kind of really good secret spots 0:43:18.920 --> 0:43:20.520 now all of a sudden they put in an hour 0:43:20.600 --> 0:43:24.520 walk And yeah, and I went. I was with a 0:43:24.520 --> 0:43:26.640 friend and on one of the units, and I spent 0:43:26.680 --> 0:43:28.920 forty five minutes walking back there. And you know, I'm 0:43:28.960 --> 0:43:31.480 kind of short and it doesn't take much to get 0:43:31.520 --> 0:43:33.960 into marsh up to my waist and uh, you know, 0:43:33.960 --> 0:43:36.799 I get into a tripod stand and sit there and 0:43:37.239 --> 0:43:39.359 rate at light. You know, you see a boat coming 0:43:39.400 --> 0:43:42.799 up and accessing a different part of the marsh. But 0:43:43.040 --> 0:43:47.120 that's kind of the game. So it's it's an interesting 0:43:47.160 --> 0:43:50.120 conundrum because we want to offer access for people, you know, 0:43:50.200 --> 0:43:52.840 for older people who can't do that. What about taking kids? 0:43:52.840 --> 0:43:55.120 What have taken other folks. If I didn't have my 0:43:55.160 --> 0:43:57.680 friend helping me get back to that spot, I probably 0:43:57.680 --> 0:44:00.239 couldn't have gotten back there either. At least you said 0:44:00.239 --> 0:44:02.680 there are a lot of places that aren't easy. That's correct, 0:44:02.840 --> 0:44:05.480 there are. So the boat access is limited to a 0:44:05.520 --> 0:44:08.640 few areas. We're trying it again this year and we'll see, 0:44:09.080 --> 0:44:12.279 oh yeah, the lugs you're being able to see if 0:44:12.400 --> 0:44:17.000 if it creates too much, yeah, tension between hunters or yeah. 0:44:17.080 --> 0:44:19.200 And actually the bigger trouble that we've been having is 0:44:19.200 --> 0:44:22.000 people putting in. If you've driven around this area, there's 0:44:22.000 --> 0:44:24.080 a lot of ditches with water especially it's been kind 0:44:24.080 --> 0:44:27.200 of dry, very dry until recently, but you could put 0:44:27.239 --> 0:44:30.319 your kayaker, canoe in a ditch almost anywhere and get 0:44:30.360 --> 0:44:33.480 to one of these waterways. So that's been an issue 0:44:33.640 --> 0:44:38.400 with trespassing. And yeah, yeah, people putting not putting in 0:44:38.400 --> 0:44:40.400 where they're supposed to for the refuge. But putting their 0:44:40.440 --> 0:44:43.839 boat in in a ditch literally and then going in, 0:44:44.000 --> 0:44:46.439 so that can cause access issues. And if you guys 0:44:46.520 --> 0:44:48.640 have rules about where how you want where you want 0:44:48.719 --> 0:44:51.760 people to park, yep, yep. And but the bigger issues 0:44:51.800 --> 0:44:56.319 with private landowners. So some folks don't know and they'll 0:44:56.360 --> 0:44:59.480 just put in and trespass on other people's property. You 0:44:59.520 --> 0:45:02.200 can get to the refuge through our ramps, but you 0:45:02.239 --> 0:45:04.960 can also get to the refuge through public um, I 0:45:05.000 --> 0:45:09.640 mean private areas as well if you have permission. So 0:45:09.680 --> 0:45:12.040 we don't want to cause problems for other people either. 0:45:12.320 --> 0:45:15.520 I got you. And then uh back to like like 0:45:15.600 --> 0:45:18.040 what are the hallmarks? Like? So what are the things 0:45:18.040 --> 0:45:20.480 that the people who are successful at it? Like? What 0:45:20.560 --> 0:45:22.560 do they do? I mean, is there a way you 0:45:22.560 --> 0:45:26.680 can kind of describe the person who finds success trying to? Yeah, 0:45:26.719 --> 0:45:30.120 I mean Steve's asking because we've been hunting for two days. 0:45:30.560 --> 0:45:35.600 We don't have any success. Ye were by myself, like 0:45:35.640 --> 0:45:37.720 I said, I've been trying to. I've been gun hunting 0:45:37.760 --> 0:45:40.080 for a long time, but I've just started bow hunting 0:45:40.080 --> 0:45:41.759 and I myself have been trying to get my first 0:45:41.800 --> 0:45:44.520 sicke as well with my bow. Um, So the thing 0:45:44.600 --> 0:45:46.719 that that I've talked to the people who have really 0:45:46.719 --> 0:45:49.000 been successful and they like to help other people be 0:45:49.080 --> 0:45:51.160 successful too. Is is they put the time. I mean 0:45:51.160 --> 0:45:53.760 they're looking at aerial maps. They're trying to figure out, Okay, 0:45:54.120 --> 0:45:55.759 this guy's going to go in the marsh here and 0:45:55.760 --> 0:45:57.799 then the woods there. There's crops there, So they're looking 0:45:57.840 --> 0:46:00.560 at the landscape. Um. And then they're going out there 0:46:00.560 --> 0:46:03.160 and scouting and putting the time in to see where's 0:46:03.200 --> 0:46:05.360 the sign and so forth. Now, when it comes to 0:46:05.400 --> 0:46:07.840 public lands, it's always a little bit of a crapshoot 0:46:07.880 --> 0:46:11.040 because when everybody else goes out there, they're gonna move. 0:46:11.120 --> 0:46:13.000 The deer patterns are going to move because of the 0:46:13.000 --> 0:46:15.160 people moving in the woods. That's why early archery is 0:46:15.200 --> 0:46:17.160 so fun to me anyways, and I think to a 0:46:17.239 --> 0:46:19.239 lot of people because it's so miserable that no one's 0:46:19.280 --> 0:46:22.239 out there. That's right in some regards. Yeah, because that 0:46:22.320 --> 0:46:25.719 first gunshot hasn't gone off. So when muzzle loader opens tomorrow, 0:46:26.320 --> 0:46:28.200 we're going to see a lot more hunters in the woods. 0:46:28.239 --> 0:46:30.040 They're gonna hear the shots. That deer are going to 0:46:30.120 --> 0:46:31.680 go a lot more nocturnal, and they're not going to 0:46:31.800 --> 0:46:35.160 act as natural as they have been. So I'm going 0:46:35.200 --> 0:46:37.560 out tonight and hoping I can get my And do 0:46:37.560 --> 0:46:40.399 you feel that, um, do you feel from what you've 0:46:40.440 --> 0:46:43.960 seen that that people who are willing to walk and 0:46:44.040 --> 0:46:47.799 wade out too hard to access areas of that that 0:46:47.880 --> 0:46:52.080 that's good? That works for people. Yeah, it works for people. 0:46:52.080 --> 0:46:54.600 But I've also heard the same exact people be very 0:46:54.600 --> 0:46:56.359 close to a parking lot and get to your deer 0:46:56.400 --> 0:46:58.920 as well. I think it comes down to experience. You 0:46:58.960 --> 0:47:02.320 can't nothing and replaced as getting out there and doing 0:47:02.320 --> 0:47:06.279 it yourself and learning those hard lessons and seeing it. 0:47:06.600 --> 0:47:09.400 Nothing can replace that, and that's what I've seen amongst 0:47:09.400 --> 0:47:12.520 the hunters that I respect and know around here, are 0:47:12.600 --> 0:47:16.400 just a lot tougher because you can't even even when 0:47:16.440 --> 0:47:18.719 they're not disturbed by the ares, alter season or a 0:47:18.760 --> 0:47:21.120 firearm seating, you can't pattern them like a white tail. 0:47:21.360 --> 0:47:23.400 They just they're a little bit more random, you know, 0:47:23.440 --> 0:47:26.120 white tails, and you can pretty much guarantee they're gonna 0:47:26.160 --> 0:47:28.880 be on that bean field every night or whatever, whereas 0:47:29.680 --> 0:47:32.440 sick as are a little harder to pattern. You just 0:47:32.760 --> 0:47:35.440 you know, you gotta put yourself in that high percentage area. 0:47:36.160 --> 0:47:38.560 But you got to do it a whole bunch. That's 0:47:39.200 --> 0:47:41.399 playoff hunt with Steve for the last couple of days. 0:47:41.440 --> 0:47:45.000 Is I came down like trying to like, you know, 0:47:45.320 --> 0:47:47.040 I was asking a lot of questions about like very 0:47:47.080 --> 0:47:52.880 specific landscape, like like oh, trail intersections or and just 0:47:53.000 --> 0:47:56.000 kind of explain your idea about them, like like how 0:47:56.080 --> 0:47:59.600 you go about stand selection. Yeah, it's it's like Brian said, 0:47:59.640 --> 0:48:04.040 I look, I've been disappointed many times sitting over a 0:48:04.080 --> 0:48:06.920 trail it looks like a cow path and you think, oh, 0:48:06.920 --> 0:48:09.520 they've got to come here regularly. It's just a matter 0:48:09.520 --> 0:48:11.239 of time. And it probably is just a matter of time. 0:48:11.560 --> 0:48:14.480 But a lot of that activity is at night. And 0:48:14.520 --> 0:48:18.520 so I've found that sitting on trails per se is 0:48:18.560 --> 0:48:23.840 not a very productive uh technique for shooting deer. But 0:48:24.160 --> 0:48:26.759 and if you look from an aerial photograph, you'll see 0:48:26.800 --> 0:48:29.239 there's just a network of trails through the marsh and 0:48:29.320 --> 0:48:32.320 into the woods. You can see you can see from Google. Yeah, 0:48:32.600 --> 0:48:35.319 and so it's like a crap shoot whether they're gonna 0:48:35.400 --> 0:48:37.279 take this trail or that trail. So what I try 0:48:37.320 --> 0:48:40.560 to do is, like Brian just said, find high percentage 0:48:40.560 --> 0:48:44.600 areas where deer activity gets funneled down and hopefully that 0:48:44.680 --> 0:48:46.960 means one is going to come within range. You know, 0:48:47.160 --> 0:48:50.920 with me shooting traditional archery equipment, it's like twenty yards. 0:48:50.920 --> 0:48:54.520 So I look for thicker and tighter and heavier cover 0:48:54.640 --> 0:48:57.040 than probably most people that would be able to shoot 0:48:57.040 --> 0:48:59.200 a little firs because you don't care about the forty yard. 0:49:00.080 --> 0:49:01.560 I mean, I love to see the deer. It's fun 0:49:01.600 --> 0:49:03.920 to watch him and stuff, but it's way out of 0:49:03.960 --> 0:49:06.560 my range to it might as well be four hundred 0:49:06.600 --> 0:49:10.920 if it's forty. Um. But you know, looking for those 0:49:11.520 --> 0:49:14.959 patches where maybe the frag mighties pokes a little further 0:49:15.040 --> 0:49:18.520 in towards the woods, or it's it next down into 0:49:18.560 --> 0:49:21.480 a narrower strip. Um, and they'll follow the edge of 0:49:21.480 --> 0:49:24.919 of those things. Um. They love that switch grass, kind 0:49:24.920 --> 0:49:28.839 of marshy, wet stuff. They like to have their feet wet. 0:49:29.040 --> 0:49:31.320 You know, they go on the uplands, but they spend 0:49:31.360 --> 0:49:34.279 most of their time with their feet wet, waiting around. Yeah. 0:49:34.360 --> 0:49:38.879 I heard that the first ones I saw. I heard 0:49:38.920 --> 0:49:40.640 him before I saw him, and it just sounds like 0:49:40.680 --> 0:49:44.440 stuff running through the water. Yeah, that's normal out there. 0:49:44.480 --> 0:49:48.160 That's a lot of people was first experience. Can you 0:49:48.280 --> 0:49:52.239 Steve explained the frag mighty stuff. Oh, frag mighty is 0:49:52.320 --> 0:49:56.160 is a non native ornamental plant that was introduced I 0:49:56.200 --> 0:49:59.640 don't even know when, probably early nine dreds, if not 0:49:59.760 --> 0:50:03.240 soon her uh and it's you know, escape become feral. 0:50:03.320 --> 0:50:06.879 It establishes very dense monotypic stands that crowds out other 0:50:06.960 --> 0:50:10.879 native plants. Is it is it a grass or yes? 0:50:11.360 --> 0:50:15.800 Read and but mine got like twelve feet high. Twelve 0:50:15.800 --> 0:50:19.000 feet high. It's actually quite beautiful. But does it like 0:50:19.120 --> 0:50:21.840 a dozen or more stalks per square foot? I'd have 0:50:21.880 --> 0:50:25.600 to say, oh, yeah, it's almost impenetrable. Certainly you can't 0:50:25.600 --> 0:50:27.600 get through it without a whole lot of effort. But 0:50:27.640 --> 0:50:29.839 they just like run around. They're like little muskrats. Man. 0:50:29.880 --> 0:50:32.319 Oh yeah, the deer do. That's great cover for him. 0:50:32.360 --> 0:50:36.279 They That's probably why someone lived to be twenty years old. Yes, 0:50:36.320 --> 0:50:38.360 I was laughing. You have like a non native species 0:50:38.480 --> 0:50:43.919 utilizing a non native vegetation to great effect. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah. 0:50:43.960 --> 0:50:46.920 And on the refuge, we we try and control fragmighties 0:50:46.960 --> 0:50:51.200 in certain areas, which is always interesting because some of 0:50:51.200 --> 0:50:54.040 the hunters would rather us not. They like it. They're yeah, yeah, 0:50:54.040 --> 0:50:56.319 but we can't control it all. That's how would you like? 0:50:56.320 --> 0:50:57.440 What do you try? What do you try to do 0:50:57.480 --> 0:51:00.279 to get rid of it? We use Rodeo Glyphus eight 0:51:00.800 --> 0:51:03.040 and we spray that and we have a machine called 0:51:03.040 --> 0:51:05.560 a Marshmaster, which is a pretty cool thing that just 0:51:05.600 --> 0:51:09.160 goes out and we spray it. Uh. When we had 0:51:09.280 --> 0:51:12.160 a slug of funding from an outside source, we were 0:51:12.160 --> 0:51:14.160 able to do some aerial spraying of it a number 0:51:14.200 --> 0:51:15.840 of years ago, but we can't keep that up. So 0:51:15.880 --> 0:51:19.239 we control about five acres of frag mighties, which there's 0:51:19.360 --> 0:51:21.480 a lot more out there. So there's plenty for the 0:51:21.719 --> 0:51:24.200 for sica and for hunting, but you've got a spot 0:51:24.239 --> 0:51:27.759 of five acres where you try to keep it native vegetation. Yeah, 0:51:27.800 --> 0:51:30.319 we have areas that equate to five acres, like our 0:51:30.320 --> 0:51:33.359 impoundments that we create for waterfowl. We want to keep 0:51:33.360 --> 0:51:35.680 the frag mighties out of there so that the water 0:51:35.760 --> 0:51:39.880 fowl can utilize it over the winter and then whenever 0:51:39.960 --> 0:51:43.040 the marsh. We have this marsh migration that's going on. 0:51:43.080 --> 0:51:45.200 If you go out on the refuge or anywhere around here, 0:51:45.480 --> 0:51:49.000 you'll see dying trees kind of transitioning to living trees. 0:51:49.280 --> 0:51:51.319 And that's where the sea level is rising and the 0:51:51.360 --> 0:51:55.279 marsh is literally migrating up slope. We're so flat here 0:51:55.400 --> 0:51:57.120 the marsh can do that, and if it doesn't run 0:51:57.160 --> 0:52:00.160 into development, it's going to migrate. Like the highest place 0:52:00.200 --> 0:52:01.960 in this county is eleven ft or something like that 0:52:02.239 --> 0:52:06.359 something probably it sounds about right. And Steve was saying 0:52:06.400 --> 0:52:08.000 that just in the time you spent hunting here, you've 0:52:08.040 --> 0:52:12.239 watched that oh yeah, tree line. Yeah, dramatic changes in 0:52:12.320 --> 0:52:15.720 the tree lines. And you know some of the places 0:52:15.719 --> 0:52:18.200 that you saw today when I first started hunting them 0:52:18.239 --> 0:52:22.360 twelve fifteen years ago, those were had big trees you 0:52:22.360 --> 0:52:25.200 could put tree stands in. And you know, more than 0:52:25.239 --> 0:52:26.800 half of those trees have died and the ones that 0:52:26.880 --> 0:52:29.839 are left are just kind of stunted and whatnot. So 0:52:30.160 --> 0:52:32.120 another ten years from now that I'll be dead lying 0:52:32.160 --> 0:52:36.759 on the ground. And the salt water intrusion and yeah, 0:52:37.239 --> 0:52:40.120 Black Waters lost five thousand acres of marsh to open 0:52:40.200 --> 0:52:47.520 water since five thousand, really yeah, and we're still losing 0:52:47.520 --> 0:52:50.160 it today. And everybody who goes out, the muskrat trappers, 0:52:50.200 --> 0:52:52.799 the hunters, everybody who goes out there, they can see 0:52:52.800 --> 0:52:57.399 the changes right before your eyes. Five thousand acres from 0:52:57.560 --> 0:53:01.719 marsh to open water. Yeah, so that's what we have 0:53:01.800 --> 0:53:03.560 to deal with, and we're trying to help we we 0:53:03.640 --> 0:53:05.239 want to keep that marsh. You want to keep that 0:53:05.320 --> 0:53:07.760 high marsh that used to be there in marsh in general, 0:53:08.160 --> 0:53:10.640 and so as the frag mighties comes in and moves 0:53:10.640 --> 0:53:12.719 into a lot of these areas where it would have 0:53:12.719 --> 0:53:15.440 been different species before. So there's certain areas that we 0:53:15.480 --> 0:53:17.960 target for the Fragmighties control, and the other places we 0:53:18.040 --> 0:53:21.919 just we let it go. Can you explain high marsh? Yeah, well, 0:53:22.000 --> 0:53:25.080 high marsh. Well, back in the nineties when the refuge 0:53:25.120 --> 0:53:28.520 was established, I saw pictures over this weekend of someone 0:53:28.560 --> 0:53:30.880 who did a history of the refuge where you it 0:53:31.000 --> 0:53:33.200 used to be the marsh was high enough above the 0:53:33.239 --> 0:53:37.080 water level you'd have different species of of the cord grass, 0:53:37.120 --> 0:53:39.880 the salt marsh, hay, etcetera. And the cattle could actually 0:53:39.920 --> 0:53:42.560 graze it. Well, you would never imagine doing that now 0:53:42.640 --> 0:53:45.439 because with as the marsh has actually the sea level 0:53:45.440 --> 0:53:48.160 has risen, water levels have risen. Therefore there's a different 0:53:48.440 --> 0:53:51.759 it's a low marsh instead, and as more water gets 0:53:51.840 --> 0:53:55.080 higher and higher, it becomes more broken up. If you 0:53:55.120 --> 0:53:57.840 look around you'll see marsh. That's just all grass. But 0:53:57.880 --> 0:53:59.560 if you look in the middle, you'll start to see 0:53:59.600 --> 0:54:03.000 like poles of water, open wire. That's the marsh just 0:54:03.000 --> 0:54:06.960 just uh, degrading, falling apart. And that's not you know, 0:54:07.000 --> 0:54:09.400 what we want to see, but that's indeed what's happening. 0:54:09.440 --> 0:54:11.560 So we have to deal with it. Things change. What 0:54:12.040 --> 0:54:18.160 species come out as the winner on that? Uh well, fish, yeah, 0:54:18.360 --> 0:54:24.520 we've got more fish now, yeah, snakeheads uh yeah, yeah yeah, 0:54:24.520 --> 0:54:26.919 so we're losing. But you could you could argue that 0:54:26.920 --> 0:54:30.080 that Sica and freg Mighty's are winners in this because 0:54:30.120 --> 0:54:33.520 they're they're might as this marsh is migrating up into 0:54:33.560 --> 0:54:36.720 the woods, the dying woods. It's a different species before 0:54:36.760 --> 0:54:39.640 freg Mighty's and sicket was different species of of the 0:54:40.000 --> 0:54:43.799 cord grasses and so forth, three square things like that. 0:54:44.360 --> 0:54:48.920 So here here's like a probably harder question for you 0:54:48.920 --> 0:54:53.200 about like managing a refuge and then and then having 0:54:53.200 --> 0:54:56.400 a species like sick of deer that have a tremendous 0:54:56.440 --> 0:54:59.200 like hunter interest, Like I would think if you look 0:54:59.239 --> 0:55:02.439 at the ma and date for the refuge system would 0:55:02.480 --> 0:55:07.160 not be to provide a habitat to a non native 0:55:07.480 --> 0:55:13.319 that's correct. So do people float the idea of trying 0:55:13.320 --> 0:55:15.640 to do an eradication or is there I mean, is 0:55:15.680 --> 0:55:19.160 there is there just no negative to them? Uh? Certainly 0:55:19.239 --> 0:55:22.719 we have folks um that question. Oh wait, especially with 0:55:22.800 --> 0:55:25.520 their deer hunting program. You're managing for sica. That's a 0:55:25.560 --> 0:55:28.680 non native invasive species that some would argue compete with 0:55:28.680 --> 0:55:31.320 white tail, whether or not that's true or not. And 0:55:31.400 --> 0:55:34.560 we argue that well, you know, they felt like, like 0:55:34.600 --> 0:55:39.920 Brian explained, it's we are managing a resource for hunters 0:55:39.960 --> 0:55:43.239 that we don't think is having a detrimental effect to 0:55:43.360 --> 0:55:47.160 the refuge in and of itself. However, we are trying 0:55:47.200 --> 0:55:50.319 to focus our efforts of harvest on certain areas where 0:55:50.320 --> 0:55:53.359 they are causing problems. For instance, we plant crops um 0:55:53.520 --> 0:55:56.279 for waterfowl so that when they get here, when the 0:55:56.320 --> 0:55:59.279 geek which have started arriving, the migrants, that's there that's 0:55:59.280 --> 0:56:01.200 supposed to be there for the waterfowl over the winter 0:56:01.600 --> 0:56:04.359 and the sick in particularly, well, all the deer are 0:56:04.920 --> 0:56:07.600 really hitting those crops hard. So we try and open 0:56:07.680 --> 0:56:09.719 up wildlife drive and some of those areas that are 0:56:09.719 --> 0:56:12.279 closed to hunting specifically so that hunters can go in 0:56:12.640 --> 0:56:15.719 and hopefully hit those deer harder so that we can 0:56:15.840 --> 0:56:21.680 have that resource there for waterfowl. So it's a balancing act. Um. 0:56:21.719 --> 0:56:28.120 So with the with the can you break down the 0:56:28.120 --> 0:56:30.200 difference between the refuge and the what's the other thing 0:56:30.239 --> 0:56:33.160 that the stay wildlife management areas? Yeah? But what river 0:56:33.200 --> 0:56:38.359 is it? Not the Savage but fishing Bay Fishing Bay 0:56:38.400 --> 0:56:41.279 wildlife management area, So like break down from me what 0:56:41.360 --> 0:56:43.880 those two things are. Sure, I'll talk about the National 0:56:43.920 --> 0:56:47.160 Wildlife Refuges are We're federally owned by the US Fish 0:56:47.160 --> 0:56:49.920 and Wildlife Service, and so that was the first refuge, 0:56:49.920 --> 0:56:52.480 like I mentioned, was Pelican Island back in three. And 0:56:52.480 --> 0:56:56.160 we're the only lands federally loan owned lands set aside 0:56:56.200 --> 0:57:00.480 specifically for wildlife and wildlife dependent recreation for people. So 0:57:00.640 --> 0:57:03.719 like the hunting and fishing that we talked about, we've 0:57:03.760 --> 0:57:06.520 got five and sixty six around the country, and Blackwater 0:57:06.640 --> 0:57:09.040 is is one of those. We were established back in 0:57:09.120 --> 0:57:13.280 ninety three, primarily for waterfowl, but also for other species 0:57:13.280 --> 0:57:16.240 of wildlife as well. And uh yeah, so we follow 0:57:16.280 --> 0:57:21.240 federal mandates of the Fishing Wildlife Service UM, which includes 0:57:21.320 --> 0:57:25.000 allowing visitors and those types of activities that are compatible 0:57:25.040 --> 0:57:30.200 for wildlife conservation and and the Blackwater Refuge actually shares 0:57:30.240 --> 0:57:35.160 a border with Fishing Bayishing Bay correct in Fishing Bay State, 0:57:35.280 --> 0:57:37.720 that's a state wildlife management area. Most of those were 0:57:37.760 --> 0:57:40.800 purchased with Pittman Robertson funds. A lot of stemmy nuts 0:57:40.840 --> 0:57:43.720 break wildife management areas are pretty common across the country. 0:57:43.760 --> 0:57:48.240 So UM Fishing Bay, I think that's our largest. Our 0:57:48.320 --> 0:57:52.440 largest one is fifty however plus thousand acres or whatever 0:57:52.480 --> 0:57:58.200 it is UM and they form one contiguous piece of marsh. Though, Yeah, 0:57:58.200 --> 0:58:01.960 that's more USA. And how many acres total of It's like, 0:58:02.400 --> 0:58:05.000 how many acres total of public land are there in 0:58:05.000 --> 0:58:10.360 this area? A good bit. I don't know the percentage. Wise, 0:58:10.440 --> 0:58:13.240 we're we're a little over twenty nine thousand acres, so 0:58:13.400 --> 0:58:16.280 that includes Martin the Island and some of our other 0:58:16.360 --> 0:58:19.120 smaller refuges, but certainly most of it's a black water 0:58:19.720 --> 0:58:23.600 and uh, Fishing Bays about twenty five Taylor's Island. There's 0:58:23.760 --> 0:58:26.120 w m A at Taylor's Island. So I mean there's 0:58:26.160 --> 0:58:28.720 there's a lot of public land in the area. I mean, 0:58:28.800 --> 0:58:33.760 you know, fifty thousand plus acres easily UM not all contiguous, 0:58:33.760 --> 0:58:37.000 but yeah, I mean there's softy acres of of of 0:58:37.120 --> 0:58:41.760 sika deer habitat. Yeah, so it's like water. So it's 0:58:41.760 --> 0:58:44.280 not a lot of it, good percentage of it right 0:58:44.280 --> 0:58:49.520 here it yea and how and there's how many deer 0:58:50.440 --> 0:58:54.560 ten to fifteen thousand? Do you guys feel that? Uh? 0:58:54.760 --> 0:58:58.040 Do you guys feel that that? It's the thing that 0:58:58.080 --> 0:59:02.880 people don't really know about. I think the sick of 0:59:03.000 --> 0:59:05.760 they know about they seem to. But I'll tell you 0:59:05.800 --> 0:59:09.360 what I mean. I mean nationally, I want my whole life, 0:59:09.400 --> 0:59:11.040 but I have to come down here. One time, a 0:59:11.080 --> 0:59:14.200 friend of mine was at some fundraiser auction for Ducks Unlimited, 0:59:14.200 --> 0:59:16.200 and somehow or another wound up with a snow goose 0:59:16.240 --> 0:59:18.960 hunt invited me to come along at for like a 0:59:19.080 --> 0:59:24.480 day and emerdis guy talking about like these like marsh dear, Yeah, 0:59:25.120 --> 0:59:27.760 sick of deer, marsh dear. And it was kind of 0:59:27.760 --> 0:59:29.400 in one year and out the other. But I was remember, 0:59:29.440 --> 0:59:32.760 that was like the first time I've ever had any idea. Yeah, 0:59:32.800 --> 0:59:35.160 We've been playing in this trip for two years and 0:59:35.320 --> 0:59:38.360 I've yet to tell somebody, Yeah, We're going to Maryland 0:59:38.360 --> 0:59:43.360 to hunt seek of deer and have someone go, oh yeah, yeah, 0:59:43.400 --> 0:59:46.120 I think Remy Warren was the only one. He's got 0:59:46.120 --> 0:59:48.200 his he's got his finger to the polls man. And 0:59:48.280 --> 0:59:50.040 I do know that all the locals want to keep 0:59:50.040 --> 0:59:53.480 it kind of their own little secret. I can imagine, 0:59:53.560 --> 0:59:57.480 yeahs out of the bag, you know, their perceptionists that 0:59:57.520 --> 1:00:01.480 were overrun with non residents and come years looking to 1:00:01.600 --> 1:00:04.480 hunt secret deer. And but the numbers don't bear that out. No, 1:00:04.760 --> 1:00:08.240 not really they don't. I mean, it's definitely they are 1:00:08.280 --> 1:00:11.960 well known in the mid Atlantic, so you know, you 1:00:12.000 --> 1:00:14.000 see a lot of Delaware hunters, you see a lot 1:00:14.000 --> 1:00:17.320 of Pennsylvania hunters, you see fair number of New Jersey hunters, 1:00:17.400 --> 1:00:21.520 Virginia hunters. Yeah see, you know, so it's more it's 1:00:21.520 --> 1:00:25.320 a local mid Atlantic they're well known, um, among the 1:00:25.360 --> 1:00:28.600 deer hunting community. Um. But once you get outside of 1:00:28.640 --> 1:00:30.680 that range, and there's been quite a few celebrities that 1:00:30.720 --> 1:00:34.160 have been here hunting them and have done shows on them. Um, 1:00:34.360 --> 1:00:36.200 I've done you know, I don't know, I can't even 1:00:36.240 --> 1:00:38.920 count four or five, six, half a dozen different you know, 1:00:38.960 --> 1:00:41.240 over the year's different interviews with different hunters that that 1:00:41.320 --> 1:00:45.240 have come. So it has attracted national you know, at 1:00:45.280 --> 1:00:47.959 that at that level, but but it's definitely more still 1:00:47.960 --> 1:00:51.120 a more local type phenomena. So one of the things 1:00:51.120 --> 1:00:53.080 I could imagine limits it a little bit is they 1:00:53.120 --> 1:00:56.840 have dinky little antlers. So it's like it's like you 1:00:56.880 --> 1:00:58.800 gotta have it. But I'm not hacking that because don't 1:00:58.800 --> 1:01:00.360 really care. I mean it's like you have like a 1:01:00.400 --> 1:01:05.959 con of sewer's eye to recognize. Yeah, they're not They're 1:01:05.960 --> 1:01:08.800 not a elk, you know. I mean, if it happened 1:01:08.800 --> 1:01:13.120 to have some freakish giant antlers, it's just a fact 1:01:13.240 --> 1:01:16.520 that more people to say. But you're right, so have 1:01:16.600 --> 1:01:19.120 you tried one? Have you eaten one? Yet? They are 1:01:19.160 --> 1:01:22.960 so good, they are much tastier. I heard people almost 1:01:23.040 --> 1:01:26.200 universally like them better than I would say, that's true. 1:01:26.480 --> 1:01:28.840 Steve had a word to describe whitetail met Could you 1:01:28.840 --> 1:01:31.760 call it kind of minerally? Yeah, yeah, I've heard that 1:01:31.880 --> 1:01:36.120 term before. It's it's a slight metallic or livery taste. 1:01:36.160 --> 1:01:39.680 Is what I prefer these. I prefer the secret dear Yeah, yeah, 1:01:39.680 --> 1:01:42.360 I mean I love white tail too, but there's something 1:01:42.440 --> 1:01:45.680 that secret backstrap is just I've never talked to anybody 1:01:45.720 --> 1:01:49.120 that they would prefer whitea however, So it's just like 1:01:49.320 --> 1:01:52.919 widely as you know, it's pretty much universal. Yeah, it's good, 1:01:53.240 --> 1:01:55.840 not just you know, the flavor and then the texture 1:01:55.880 --> 1:01:57.520 to like I said, are most of the time they're 1:01:57.520 --> 1:02:00.800 more tender than white tail. It's killing me that I 1:02:00.880 --> 1:02:04.320 haven't got one. So but yeah, I don't. I want 1:02:04.320 --> 1:02:05.520 to get back to the antler because I want to 1:02:05.520 --> 1:02:10.360 be hacking on them. But I mean, you've got some 1:02:10.400 --> 1:02:13.280 ones that are that are were described to me, Steve. 1:02:13.320 --> 1:02:15.840 You've killed something that were described to me by not 1:02:15.920 --> 1:02:20.360 just you, by beings like trophy class. Yeah, the three 1:02:20.400 --> 1:02:23.320 I showed you just about anybody would would get mounted 1:02:23.920 --> 1:02:26.000 in there, you know, a trophy. Yeah. And it's like 1:02:26.040 --> 1:02:28.960 they're like, I'm not dogging on him. I'm just saying 1:02:29.000 --> 1:02:31.760 it's like a little it's like it's like three three 1:02:31.800 --> 1:02:35.040 times per antler. And then the main beam is sixteen 1:02:35.040 --> 1:02:38.960 inches long maybe for a huge one. Sixteen sixty is 1:02:39.000 --> 1:02:42.120 a really big one. And you're saying that like more 1:02:42.280 --> 1:02:45.120 like an eight point is like virtually unheard of, very rare. 1:02:46.200 --> 1:02:48.720 A true eight point is extremely rare. But it's an 1:02:48.720 --> 1:02:51.400 elkish kind of little antler yeah, yeah, they're really cool, 1:02:51.600 --> 1:02:55.320 nice eye guards. And and you do get some different 1:02:55.360 --> 1:03:00.680 configurations sometimes, whether it's generated by injuries or either to 1:03:00.760 --> 1:03:04.000 the antler when it's growing or to the dear their 1:03:04.040 --> 1:03:08.959 body when they're growing antlers, but that you know, three 1:03:08.960 --> 1:03:14.560 by three configuration is your typical mature stag. And you'll 1:03:14.560 --> 1:03:19.240 get a lot of I call them, uh glorified spikes, 1:03:19.400 --> 1:03:22.680 these little six pointers that are just little nubbins for 1:03:23.000 --> 1:03:27.600 eye guards, and and the top points, the splits, we 1:03:27.680 --> 1:03:31.040 call them. I saw one of those today. Yeah, yeah, 1:03:31.320 --> 1:03:34.160 year lanes are always spikes, and I've never seen a 1:03:34.200 --> 1:03:38.200 branched antler yearling. And then at two and a half, 1:03:38.240 --> 1:03:41.080 they they will be what you just described, one of 1:03:41.120 --> 1:03:44.600 those little you know, week you might be able to 1:03:44.600 --> 1:03:46.600 call them the six point, but maybe a four point 1:03:46.680 --> 1:03:48.920 or whatever. And then it takes two and a half 1:03:49.600 --> 1:03:51.320 or it takes three and a half and up to 1:03:51.480 --> 1:03:57.720 start getting into maturity and you know, true six points. Yeah, 1:03:57.920 --> 1:04:00.200 and then these guys don't have twin fallns either, right, No, 1:04:00.440 --> 1:04:07.000 just single calf yeah that I've ever seen, um, and 1:04:07.080 --> 1:04:09.560 that's in the literature all which suggested only they only 1:04:09.560 --> 1:04:11.680 ever have a single calf. I've had different reports over 1:04:11.720 --> 1:04:13.840 the years. People said, no, she had twins or whatever, 1:04:13.920 --> 1:04:18.480 but um, I've only ever seen yeah, single single calf. No, Marshy, 1:04:18.880 --> 1:04:21.520 I overheard you earlier before we got started. You were saying, 1:04:22.040 --> 1:04:24.520 you've like you haven't got one with your bull. You've 1:04:24.560 --> 1:04:29.600 passed up shots. I've passed up several spikes. Why that's 1:04:29.680 --> 1:04:31.680 just me. I just I just want to let the 1:04:31.840 --> 1:04:34.400 let the little guys grow, and I wanted to get well. 1:04:34.520 --> 1:04:36.360 Let me all right, let me talk about the other week. 1:04:36.480 --> 1:04:38.560 So it was it last week or the week before. 1:04:38.600 --> 1:04:40.200 It was one of those really hot days and I 1:04:40.240 --> 1:04:43.200 had a spike under and I had a shot, but 1:04:43.520 --> 1:04:45.920 it was also you know, it was really hot with 1:04:45.960 --> 1:04:49.560 the rut, so I kept thinking another a mature stag 1:04:49.640 --> 1:04:52.600 was gonna possibly come in, or a Hind. I'd rather 1:04:52.680 --> 1:04:54.680 take a Hind or a mature stag is gonna let 1:04:54.680 --> 1:04:56.760 the little guy go. So that was just me at 1:04:56.760 --> 1:04:59.320 that time. Now, if it had been late January, I 1:04:59.320 --> 1:05:02.200 think I probably had just taken him. But because it 1:05:02.240 --> 1:05:04.120 was early in the season and the rut was on, 1:05:05.080 --> 1:05:06.600 that's what I chose to do. How did it come 1:05:06.640 --> 1:05:08.720 to pass that was under your tree? Like? What hell? 1:05:09.000 --> 1:05:12.200 I was hunting of friends that was actually under I 1:05:12.240 --> 1:05:15.240 was actually hunting bait that time. I was. I've been 1:05:15.280 --> 1:05:17.800 I've hunted bait and I've not hunted bait, and my 1:05:17.920 --> 1:05:22.080 preference is to not hunt bait my properties that I least, 1:05:22.120 --> 1:05:24.360 I'm not baiting this year. I did last year to 1:05:24.360 --> 1:05:27.160 try it out. It's a lot of I'm just not 1:05:27.160 --> 1:05:30.760 going to do it. I don't just not my preference. However, 1:05:30.960 --> 1:05:34.320 trying to get my first sick and my first bow kill, um, well, 1:05:34.360 --> 1:05:36.360 if a friend's gonna ask me, I'm also not going 1:05:36.400 --> 1:05:39.600 to pass it up. Have you have you been out 1:05:39.680 --> 1:05:43.240 hunting on the refuge too? Yes? I have, Yes, Yes, 1:05:43.440 --> 1:05:45.400 you spread it out and tomorrow is gonna be I've 1:05:45.400 --> 1:05:48.320 never hunted muzzleloader before. Tomorrow is my first day muzzleloader 1:05:48.400 --> 1:05:51.640 hunting ever. And I'm going on the refuge. Yeah, so 1:05:51.680 --> 1:05:53.720 you're gonna do the opening day of Muslim I am, 1:05:53.760 --> 1:05:55.520 And it's it's the quote to day. I'm in the 1:05:55.600 --> 1:05:58.120 unit that everybody complains about has too many people on 1:05:58.200 --> 1:06:00.760 it because as a staff person, UM, just treat me 1:06:00.800 --> 1:06:03.000 like someone else, in fact, treat me worse, you know. 1:06:03.920 --> 1:06:07.160 So I'm going out there and I'm gonna So you're 1:06:07.160 --> 1:06:09.360 gonna go out with your bow tonight. I'm going out 1:06:09.360 --> 1:06:11.640 with my bow tonight onto my my private least, which 1:06:11.680 --> 1:06:13.960 is not bated, and there's white tail and sick of 1:06:14.040 --> 1:06:18.080 there um. However, there's there's some nice white tails there too, 1:06:18.120 --> 1:06:20.479 So I'm going there tonight. I hope, you know, see 1:06:20.480 --> 1:06:24.600 if I can finally make that happen. And then tomorrow 1:06:24.600 --> 1:06:26.480 I'm going muscle later. And do you already have do 1:06:26.480 --> 1:06:28.520 you already have your stand? Like like you already have 1:06:28.520 --> 1:06:30.959 your stand set up on the refuge. No, I'm using 1:06:30.960 --> 1:06:33.880 my climbing stand. So I went and scouted. I picked 1:06:33.880 --> 1:06:36.240 a spot. And since I'm hunting by myself tomorrow and 1:06:36.280 --> 1:06:40.280 I'm kind of I'm not very big, you know, height 1:06:40.360 --> 1:06:42.800 wise or anything, I've got to be able to take 1:06:42.840 --> 1:06:45.120 care of that deer myself. So I didn't go out 1:06:45.160 --> 1:06:46.640 until the marsh. And like if I had if I 1:06:46.680 --> 1:06:48.840 was hunting with buddies, I didn't go to where I 1:06:48.880 --> 1:06:52.160 would normally go. I had to be smart about it. 1:06:52.240 --> 1:06:54.520 Where can I go and take care of a deer myself? 1:06:54.560 --> 1:06:57.360 If I get it well, I think tomorrow you're definitely 1:06:57.400 --> 1:07:00.280 gonna have to shoot a spike because if you shoot 1:07:00.360 --> 1:07:03.440 some giant like that as the refuge manager, I know, 1:07:06.840 --> 1:07:09.560 I know, I know. You have to take a vacation day. 1:07:09.760 --> 1:07:12.840 Oh yeah, you bet. You can't ect like you're out 1:07:12.840 --> 1:07:17.760 there doing something else with a muzzleoader. No, no, no, 1:07:18.040 --> 1:07:20.200 I will be hunting them. So you gotta put in 1:07:20.240 --> 1:07:22.800 for you gotta put in for vacation, and I gotta 1:07:22.800 --> 1:07:25.240 put in for the quota and get selected to which 1:07:25.320 --> 1:07:27.240 you know, Yeah, I'm in the unit that's still open, 1:07:27.360 --> 1:07:35.480 so just to avoid any feel of yeah, of privileged specially, 1:07:35.600 --> 1:07:37.919 that's right, that's right. And I was hunting a unit 1:07:38.040 --> 1:07:40.080 with my with my bow the very first day, and 1:07:40.440 --> 1:07:43.120 I'll be hunting back there again too. So you've already 1:07:43.120 --> 1:07:45.520 you've already hunted the refuge with your bowl this year. Yes, 1:07:45.920 --> 1:07:49.600 the opening around a lot, yes, and you keep hunt 1:07:49.680 --> 1:07:53.560 until January. Yes, I did last year. Yeah, and that 1:07:53.680 --> 1:07:57.080 was down at my lease that I was just white 1:07:57.080 --> 1:07:59.240 tail down there, and then a friend would take me 1:07:59.280 --> 1:08:01.040 once in a while, first sicker around here, and so 1:08:01.160 --> 1:08:04.040 I would do that if you could tolerate the cold. 1:08:04.360 --> 1:08:07.240 January is great tom to hunt. There's not many people 1:08:07.280 --> 1:08:10.120 out they Yeah, I enjoyed it. I had to. I 1:08:10.200 --> 1:08:12.320 ended up keep buying more and more stuff because I 1:08:12.400 --> 1:08:16.840 kept getting colder and cold. So the little inserts, the flips, 1:08:17.040 --> 1:08:19.599 you got to turn them on through your boots. Yeah. Yeah, 1:08:19.640 --> 1:08:22.880 I got those fewer mosquitoes. You'll still have mosquitoes in January, 1:08:23.000 --> 1:08:26.479 you will, you will. So I never heard of the 1:08:26.479 --> 1:08:29.439 thermo cell till I came here and started hunting, and 1:08:29.479 --> 1:08:31.720 that's like the you have to have that here, you 1:08:31.800 --> 1:08:35.080 have to have that. So I'm trying my time, and 1:08:35.200 --> 1:08:37.720 I think it's gonna happen for you. Yeah, so did 1:08:37.720 --> 1:08:40.360 you not? So? So? Did you not start hunting until 1:08:40.640 --> 1:08:44.320 until as a grown up? Yeah, untill about twenty three 1:08:44.760 --> 1:08:46.599 four or something like that. That was the first time 1:08:46.600 --> 1:08:51.160 I actually hunted. Something got you. Ye, started off with 1:08:51.200 --> 1:08:55.439 bird hunting and then moved to deer white tails because 1:08:55.439 --> 1:08:58.240 I'm from western Pennsylvania, so that's all white tails. Yeah. 1:08:58.280 --> 1:09:02.160 And now you're working in on the local secret. Yeah. Yeah. 1:09:02.360 --> 1:09:04.360 And I never thought I'd be able to bow hunt. 1:09:04.400 --> 1:09:06.280 I just didn't think I could pull enough weight back 1:09:06.400 --> 1:09:09.640 and just you know, it's a lot of pressure, but 1:09:09.680 --> 1:09:11.920 I really love it. You've been at it two years now. 1:09:12.040 --> 1:09:15.439 This is my second season bow hunting you not. No, 1:09:15.560 --> 1:09:18.200 it's not a problem. You haven't got one yet. No, No, 1:09:18.280 --> 1:09:19.920 I'm all right. I don't hope I should start feeling 1:09:19.920 --> 1:09:21.840 sorry for you. But it sounds like you're right on track. No, 1:09:22.040 --> 1:09:25.920 I've gun hunted up. Yes, you'll kill something this year. Yeah, 1:09:25.920 --> 1:09:28.479 and last year, Like I said, I did pass up. Well, 1:09:28.520 --> 1:09:31.640 at the least down in Somerset County. We those of 1:09:31.720 --> 1:09:34.200 us in it, we have this. We don't shoot anything 1:09:34.240 --> 1:09:36.360 less than an eight point. So when I had some 1:09:36.360 --> 1:09:38.559 smaller box, kind of under my stand, I didn't take 1:09:38.560 --> 1:09:43.880 it because that was kind of the informal rules for secrets. No, 1:09:44.040 --> 1:09:47.040 for white tails, I'm sorry for white tails. You're not 1:09:47.120 --> 1:09:51.599 gonna waiting a long time. White tails only. So that's 1:09:51.640 --> 1:09:54.160 that's that's us. So myself, I'll take a hind or 1:09:54.160 --> 1:09:56.639 a mature any sort of mature stag. But you asked 1:09:56.680 --> 1:09:58.600 me again a little bit later, and yeah, maybe I 1:09:58.600 --> 1:10:03.680 will take a spike. I got one last question. Last 1:10:03.720 --> 1:10:07.000 night when you were guys were talking another thing I overheard. 1:10:07.439 --> 1:10:09.800 Were you saying that, like I'm holding this, I'm holding 1:10:09.800 --> 1:10:14.120 a stag here that Steve killed that's missing the time? 1:10:14.120 --> 1:10:17.679 Are you saying that someone found that time yeah. So 1:10:17.960 --> 1:10:21.400 in another deer, yep, a fellow hunter that hunted the 1:10:21.439 --> 1:10:24.280 same property that I do. I shot a six point 1:10:24.360 --> 1:10:27.120 that was about the same caliber as that that seven 1:10:27.160 --> 1:10:31.360 point there and uh to you know, very mature stags, 1:10:31.760 --> 1:10:35.240 and he got his mounted and he took his taxidermisters 1:10:35.320 --> 1:10:42.280 or keeping it out. The uh taxidermists found a length 1:10:42.320 --> 1:10:44.599 of bone that matched up perfectly with what was missing 1:10:44.600 --> 1:10:47.040 off the tip of that one antler. There. Where is it? Now? 1:10:47.520 --> 1:10:51.320 He's got it? Yeah, he didn't give it. No, No, 1:10:52.400 --> 1:10:54.920 it's it's just kind of his trophy. So I didn't 1:10:54.920 --> 1:10:59.920 want to take. Yeah, it was pretty Yeah, he's got 1:11:01.280 --> 1:11:02.800 I don't know about that. What do you think about that? 1:11:04.320 --> 1:11:07.439 They are extremely aggressive. Well, he's a fan of your program. 1:11:07.479 --> 1:11:10.360 So when he hears that, I don't want to. I 1:11:10.360 --> 1:11:15.040 don't want brother. Obviously he's got impeccable taste. Well that 1:11:15.160 --> 1:11:19.519 just uh all right, Brian. You gotten to witness them fighting. Yeah, 1:11:19.880 --> 1:11:24.240 so it's brutal. Yeah, they're they're they're impressive and like 1:11:24.280 --> 1:11:27.400 they you can't see the skull that we're holding, but 1:11:27.840 --> 1:11:30.800 this would all be fat. So they have over an 1:11:30.840 --> 1:11:33.919 inch of fat on that skull to help protect against 1:11:34.520 --> 1:11:37.240 you know there's points and all, but they are just brutal. 1:11:37.280 --> 1:11:40.479 But you know they're there's no question there's a lot 1:11:40.560 --> 1:11:44.800 that that die every year just from injuries. Yeah, yeah, 1:11:45.080 --> 1:11:46.800 do you find that. Do you find sheds? You probably 1:11:46.840 --> 1:11:49.000 can't find the sheds because of the habitat type, right 1:11:49.120 --> 1:11:50.560 or do you know didn't find them every once in 1:11:50.600 --> 1:11:53.679 a while. Yeah, you can find him, you can find 1:11:53.880 --> 1:11:55.519 not in the march, you're not gonna find him. This 1:11:55.520 --> 1:11:58.080 seems like if they drop out that that, yeah, they're 1:11:58.080 --> 1:12:01.920 going stuff. You're not gonna Yeah. I did find one 1:12:01.960 --> 1:12:03.960 and frag once. So I was tracking a deer that 1:12:04.000 --> 1:12:06.360 i'd hit and really blood trailing him. Yeah, and I 1:12:06.439 --> 1:12:10.639 looked down and here's this beautiful three point antlers sitting there. 1:12:11.320 --> 1:12:13.719 They are a little welk, so they do have beauty 1:12:14.800 --> 1:12:19.360 or appreciate so being a being a little elk, they 1:12:19.360 --> 1:12:25.880 are a little stigil tusks, So that's cool. Yeah, Brian, 1:12:26.000 --> 1:12:30.200 is it roar or bugle sound they make? I've always 1:12:30.200 --> 1:12:36.000 just heard bugle ms will talk about the roar, Yeah, 1:12:36.160 --> 1:12:38.360 but I think it just kind of spill over from 1:12:38.360 --> 1:12:40.680 the red deer roar. And they anything that ruts, they 1:12:40.720 --> 1:12:43.479 just called the roar, but here it's bugling. Yeah. I 1:12:43.520 --> 1:12:48.320 think we just we just equated without Yeah, and it's 1:12:48.360 --> 1:12:50.799 a weird, like I don't know if I could exactly 1:12:50.840 --> 1:12:54.000 explain it. It's um to me. It's more of like 1:12:54.040 --> 1:12:58.080 a whistle, multi pitch whistle stay in stages. Yeah, And 1:12:58.080 --> 1:13:01.479 did you hear from a distance? You only hear the whistle, 1:13:01.800 --> 1:13:04.400 but if you're closer, which we've gotten to be close 1:13:04.479 --> 1:13:06.720 up a couple of times, you also hear that there's 1:13:06.760 --> 1:13:09.760 a little bit of a gird at the beginning, and 1:13:09.800 --> 1:13:12.240 then just a little bit at the end, and then 1:13:12.240 --> 1:13:14.880 there's another call what'd you call it when you're real 1:13:14.920 --> 1:13:19.400 close the key ways call it a hehaw. That starts 1:13:19.400 --> 1:13:21.639 out was a real high pitched kind of e sound, 1:13:21.680 --> 1:13:26.000 and then it drags off into this ah sounds, so 1:13:26.120 --> 1:13:34.519 it's like, really nothing else sounds like. It's kind of crazy. Yeah, 1:13:34.520 --> 1:13:36.519 And what tripped us up as I think that was 1:13:36.560 --> 1:13:41.040 the first day that we were hunting with you, I think, 1:13:41.080 --> 1:13:42.920 and we we thought we had heard him. It was 1:13:42.960 --> 1:13:44.640 the wind was kind of blowing, so it's tough to 1:13:44.640 --> 1:13:47.360 hear anything at all. But both Steve and I get 1:13:47.400 --> 1:13:49.559 together and we're like, man, we I think we heard 1:13:49.600 --> 1:13:51.760 a bugle, but it was like it must have been 1:13:51.760 --> 1:13:53.559 a guy because it was like three in a row, 1:13:54.320 --> 1:13:56.880 Like who would be doing that? Right? We go to 1:13:56.920 --> 1:13:59.280 Steve and he's like, oh, yeah, every time the bugle 1:13:59.760 --> 1:14:03.519 it's you know, and I've heard now twos, threes and 1:14:03.640 --> 1:14:09.000 even fours. It seems like, um, do you have that recording? Yeah, yeah, 1:14:09.000 --> 1:14:13.719 this is one I videoed last season on Blackwater and 1:14:13.920 --> 1:14:17.479 uh called it in with a cow call. Came across 1:14:17.520 --> 1:14:20.479 the marsh about two hundred yards and wandered, well, didn't 1:14:20.479 --> 1:14:23.960 wandered it. It came pretty directly to me and I 1:14:24.040 --> 1:14:27.919 got within twenty yards, didn't find this challenger that had 1:14:27.960 --> 1:14:30.599 had called at him, and uh so he let out 1:14:30.600 --> 1:14:33.760 with the cat I actually had bugled earlier. And then 1:14:33.960 --> 1:14:36.840 uh he came out of the woods about two hundred 1:14:36.880 --> 1:14:39.320 fifty yards away and I watched him and he was 1:14:39.360 --> 1:14:42.639 clearly rolled up. He made about four or five wallows 1:14:42.640 --> 1:14:44.599 on the back side of this this marsh. They roll 1:14:44.680 --> 1:14:47.639 around in the mud and get their antlers all dug 1:14:47.680 --> 1:14:51.479 into the marsh and p on themselves and just in 1:14:51.520 --> 1:14:54.400 the wallows to break off from the sound real quick. 1:14:54.479 --> 1:15:00.760 It's uh, it's small. Probably what maybe two square feet. Yeah, 1:15:00.800 --> 1:15:03.400 probably something like that. And they looked to me, every 1:15:03.400 --> 1:15:05.120 time I've seen one, it's it's not like it was. 1:15:05.680 --> 1:15:08.479 They continue to use the same one, right. They look 1:15:08.640 --> 1:15:11.040 like they could just like randomly stop anywhere and be like, oh, 1:15:11.120 --> 1:15:15.080 making a new wall, right, Yeah, they will reuse them also, 1:15:15.240 --> 1:15:17.800 But um, most of the ones I think you see 1:15:17.800 --> 1:15:21.400 are just one off. That's what it seems like, which 1:15:21.400 --> 1:15:23.479 is why I don't bother hunting them, you know. I mean, 1:15:23.479 --> 1:15:25.400 it's nice to have a bunch of around because you 1:15:25.400 --> 1:15:27.200 know there's a stag there. But I don't set up 1:15:27.200 --> 1:15:29.680 with my tree stand over a wallow because it's just 1:15:30.280 --> 1:15:32.639 you can wait forever for him to show up. Once 1:15:32.680 --> 1:15:34.479 in a while you'll find one that looks like it's 1:15:34.520 --> 1:15:37.240 probably a sort of communal sort of wallow and it'll 1:15:37.280 --> 1:15:40.559 be ten ft wide and just shoot up and whatnot. 1:15:40.640 --> 1:15:44.679 But most of them are just sort of frustration being 1:15:44.680 --> 1:15:47.760 taken out, I think. But now, Marka, you're telling me 1:15:47.800 --> 1:15:50.519 you set your stand up over Oh no, I just 1:15:50.600 --> 1:15:54.640 look for wallows. Look for sign Yeah, a scrape you 1:15:54.760 --> 1:15:56.840 called it. We were talking about a wallow when you 1:15:56.840 --> 1:15:59.640 told me, Well, I said, look for sign like trails, 1:15:59.720 --> 1:16:02.479 and blows and scrapes like for white tail and things 1:16:02.520 --> 1:16:04.680 like that, but not necessary that you would set up 1:16:04.680 --> 1:16:07.240 on there, just trying to determine where are they moving through. 1:16:07.880 --> 1:16:10.320 Oh but yeah, but you told me, and I thought 1:16:10.320 --> 1:16:12.120 it was in an email you said something about a 1:16:12.160 --> 1:16:16.120 scrape and that was that was that was for what? 1:16:16.280 --> 1:16:19.880 That was my my hunt last last week. Yeah, I 1:16:19.920 --> 1:16:22.800 didn't know that. I was looking for signs um at 1:16:22.840 --> 1:16:26.320 my lease which has white tails an sica, and the 1:16:26.360 --> 1:16:29.719 buck that had come in had a scrape. I didn't 1:16:29.720 --> 1:16:32.960 realize it, but when I watched him actually work the scrape, 1:16:32.960 --> 1:16:36.760 then I realized, Yeah, yeah, it happened to be near 1:16:36.840 --> 1:16:38.960 a pond and there was a lot of sign going 1:16:38.960 --> 1:16:41.160 in and out like it was really it's been really dry, 1:16:41.200 --> 1:16:42.680 so there was like a lot of dried mud on 1:16:42.720 --> 1:16:46.160 the vegetation. So I was hoping, yeah, okay, the sick 1:16:46.160 --> 1:16:47.800 are going to come from the woods to the pond 1:16:47.840 --> 1:16:50.479 in the evening because it's hot and it's my best chance. 1:16:51.240 --> 1:16:53.519 I didn't know that there was also a white tail 1:16:53.600 --> 1:16:56.120 that was making a pretty nice scrape there until I 1:16:56.160 --> 1:17:01.040 saw excellent stand Yeah, yeah, exactly. All right, let's hear 1:17:01.080 --> 1:17:27.760 the queue it up m m m m. So that 1:17:27.840 --> 1:17:31.960 real guttural um sort of start and finish. A lot 1:17:31.960 --> 1:17:33.960 of people don't hear that if it's not real close 1:17:34.000 --> 1:17:36.000 to you just say the high pitch whistle part. But 1:17:36.560 --> 1:17:39.559 most of the commercially available calls that are out there 1:17:40.040 --> 1:17:42.639 don't really capture that. And you know, I don't think 1:17:42.640 --> 1:17:47.720 that it's necessary for the deer to respond to it, um, 1:17:47.760 --> 1:17:50.120 but for my own sort of personal confidence in the 1:17:50.200 --> 1:17:53.519 call I'm blowing, I just like to to be as 1:17:53.560 --> 1:17:56.479 authentic as possible, you know. And uh so the one 1:17:56.479 --> 1:17:58.800 call I've found that actually captures that part is the 1:17:58.840 --> 1:18:02.920 Nordic Seka and that it's manufactured in Sweden. And uh, 1:18:03.320 --> 1:18:06.000 it's a pretty neat call. It's a one trick pony. 1:18:06.600 --> 1:18:10.000 It really only does the the bugle and you could 1:18:10.000 --> 1:18:12.200 probably do the he hawk kind of sound with it too, 1:18:12.240 --> 1:18:14.880 if you really practiced at it. But so I always 1:18:14.960 --> 1:18:18.160 carry standard ELK calls to so I can make the 1:18:18.200 --> 1:18:22.120 myriad of sounds. But but uh, it's it's pretty exciting 1:18:22.120 --> 1:18:25.080 when they respond to it. Yeah, I'm hoping I'm gonna 1:18:25.120 --> 1:18:29.479 blow mine a hundred times tonight. Ryan. Have you guys 1:18:29.760 --> 1:18:33.840 done it ever? Any research on the vocalizations. No, we 1:18:34.000 --> 1:18:37.280 have not, but if you if you read the literature, um, 1:18:37.600 --> 1:18:40.200 you know, what I've read is that seeker or the 1:18:40.479 --> 1:18:44.000 sicker or the most vocal of the servety. So you know, 1:18:44.120 --> 1:18:47.240 and and if you spend a lot of time out there, 1:18:47.320 --> 1:18:50.320 there are I mean, there's six seven different vocalizations you 1:18:50.360 --> 1:18:53.160 can you can pick up, not just not just the stags, 1:18:53.200 --> 1:18:56.040 but the hinds with the calves and just the other. 1:18:56.800 --> 1:19:00.760 If you had to describe the hind calve call like 1:19:00.800 --> 1:19:06.280 a mu, they almost elk like yeah, yeah, very similar, yeah, 1:19:06.439 --> 1:19:08.400 very similar. So the other one too. I'm not sure 1:19:08.400 --> 1:19:10.920 if you've probably heard yet, but they do this really 1:19:11.680 --> 1:19:15.439 low guttural growl and it almost sounds like they're talking 1:19:15.479 --> 1:19:17.640 to lugie or something, and it's there's no pitch to it. 1:19:17.640 --> 1:19:22.639 It's just as when you hear that, you know, it's 1:19:22.760 --> 1:19:26.479 usually from what I've seen, it's challenges to another stat 1:19:26.800 --> 1:19:30.880 you know. Yeah, yeah, you don't hear that unless they're 1:19:30.880 --> 1:19:34.400 within probably fifty semi five yards, unless it's a real 1:19:34.479 --> 1:19:37.240 still day and just perfect which is a mile in 1:19:37.320 --> 1:19:46.439 frag mighties. Yeah, um yeah, you know, that makes them 1:19:46.560 --> 1:19:48.360 a lot of sense. But the thing about let's being 1:19:48.400 --> 1:19:51.320 new here and in that march, you're hearing so many 1:19:51.439 --> 1:19:55.840 other noises, I mean, the the heron's you know squawking. 1:19:57.240 --> 1:20:00.439 You could easily confuse a weird haron squa walk for 1:20:00.680 --> 1:20:05.040 something that this secret deers making. Yeah, and then what 1:20:05.560 --> 1:20:07.720 who else is out there making to some really odd 1:20:07.840 --> 1:20:10.800 I mean, we've heard barred owls and young owls, you know, 1:20:11.120 --> 1:20:12.920 screech out, they go all over the place with their 1:20:14.479 --> 1:20:18.000 um there's clapper rails. They don't really sound like sicca, 1:20:18.120 --> 1:20:19.599 but you know, if you're new to it and you've 1:20:19.640 --> 1:20:21.360 never heard it before. I remember the first year I 1:20:21.400 --> 1:20:23.920 hunted him, I heard that they made this you know, 1:20:24.000 --> 1:20:26.720 bugle sound that I had no idea what it sounded like. 1:20:26.840 --> 1:20:29.439 So everything I heard out there when I was sitting 1:20:29.479 --> 1:20:32.160 in a tree stand, what is that one? Is that one? Known? 1:20:32.320 --> 1:20:36.000 Is that one? And flickers will make a very similar 1:20:36.040 --> 1:20:39.600 sound to their alarm calls and their muse sometimes. I 1:20:39.640 --> 1:20:41.839 was just gonna say, my first couple of years of alcohntin, 1:20:41.920 --> 1:20:45.000 I put at least a dozen stocks on the Western 1:20:45.040 --> 1:20:48.160 Flicker before I before my mind, you know, learned to 1:20:48.240 --> 1:20:53.720 dial in that. Then I remember the first time of 1:20:53.880 --> 1:20:56.760 stag bugle close to me and the hair and my 1:20:56.920 --> 1:20:59.280 next stood up. I was like, Ah, that's what it 1:20:59.360 --> 1:21:03.080 sounds like. Yeah, if we still have New Trio, you'd 1:21:03.240 --> 1:21:06.880 listening to yeah, sitting out the trio all the time. 1:21:07.120 --> 1:21:11.000 So that was another march sound to cover that when 1:21:11.000 --> 1:21:16.400 we do the New Trio podcast. Um cool? Anything else 1:21:16.439 --> 1:21:22.599 to add Brian about the vocalization? So cool that. Uh, 1:21:23.520 --> 1:21:26.679 you know, you gotta give it a fair shot. Don't 1:21:26.680 --> 1:21:29.479 expect something your first time, or your second, or maybe 1:21:29.479 --> 1:21:31.920 even your tenth time. But sooner or later they'll respond 1:21:31.960 --> 1:21:36.160 to it and look every direction. They'll circle behind you, 1:21:36.240 --> 1:21:38.320 they'll sneak in on you. Sometimes they'll run you over 1:21:38.360 --> 1:21:43.320 like a bulldozer. It's it can be pretty exciting. Imagine, 1:21:43.439 --> 1:21:47.800 you know, calling in a seventy pound turkey with antlers. Right. Yeah, 1:21:47.840 --> 1:21:51.280 we're three haunts in now. I mean we've haunted two mornings, 1:21:51.400 --> 1:21:55.280 one evening, and twice now. I've heard the footsteps and 1:21:55.600 --> 1:21:59.000 I believe it to be probably less than sixty yards 1:21:59.040 --> 1:22:01.439 if I can hear that, and I've yet to see 1:22:01.720 --> 1:22:04.559 one well either I've seen him in the distance, but 1:22:04.560 --> 1:22:06.960 I've yet to see the two that make that range. 1:22:07.240 --> 1:22:09.760 Tea yeah, but I think it's because I'm a bad 1:22:09.800 --> 1:22:13.040 tree stand hunter, because I haven't like remembered all my 1:22:13.120 --> 1:22:14.880 old skills about how you had to stand there like 1:22:14.920 --> 1:22:20.479 a statue. I think I'm out there stretching out all right, cool, 1:22:21.000 --> 1:22:23.479 all yeh? He got any final uh things you want 1:22:23.479 --> 1:22:26.240 to add? I like that the wire job you did 1:22:26.280 --> 1:22:32.760 on this for hand, did you invent that? Probably can't 1:22:32.800 --> 1:22:35.559 really invent that much when it comes to wires and skulls. Well, 1:22:35.560 --> 1:22:37.479 there was just something that came up with. I was 1:22:37.520 --> 1:22:41.840 too cheap to buy anything to do it, and I like, 1:22:42.320 --> 1:22:44.639 I just like a simple I like, you know, texted 1:22:44.760 --> 1:22:46.800 Ermys gonna take a picture of this wireing job and 1:22:46.800 --> 1:22:48.439 we're gonna put it on. We're gonna put it up 1:22:48.439 --> 1:22:52.280 in the show notes. You're gonna you're gonna This picture 1:22:52.320 --> 1:22:55.479 is being taken right now. And if you want to 1:22:55.479 --> 1:22:57.559 see a sweet way to wire up a euro Mount, 1:22:58.640 --> 1:23:02.519 go what you are It turned out real nice, Go 1:23:02.560 --> 1:23:05.519 to our show notes. It gives you that flat against 1:23:05.560 --> 1:23:07.720 the wall hang too, as opposed to a screw which 1:23:07.760 --> 1:23:11.040 will pop them out. Alright, you have to pick him 1:23:11.120 --> 1:23:13.360 up and hold him, look at him. Remember the hunt. 1:23:13.479 --> 1:23:15.240 You can't do that with a big mountain on the wall, 1:23:15.320 --> 1:23:18.920 you know, some tactile about being able to touch it, 1:23:18.960 --> 1:23:23.320 and it makes moving easier. Yes, it does. Moving to 1:23:23.439 --> 1:23:26.759 be like daunting. If you had a text, they everywhere 1:23:27.400 --> 1:23:32.639 like where am I gonna put my full draft draft? 1:23:34.479 --> 1:23:38.280 You can haul it around with your helicopter. The del 1:23:38.400 --> 1:23:43.600 Marvas squirrels I've seen, I've seen say it it's the 1:23:43.640 --> 1:23:47.400 del Marroo fox squirrel. It's the fox squirrel. And Janny 1:23:47.520 --> 1:23:52.960 says it lumbers through the forest, lumbers down. I saw 1:23:53.000 --> 1:23:54.960 my second one today. The first one I saw it 1:23:55.000 --> 1:23:57.880 is coming down a tree and these, um, what kind 1:23:57.880 --> 1:23:59.840 of pine is it? La bla bla blah blah blah 1:24:00.040 --> 1:24:04.640 or damn not native? Right, lob blalls are not native? Yeah, 1:24:05.280 --> 1:24:08.200 she's that's what is that? What Abernati is trying to 1:24:08.200 --> 1:24:11.479 get rid of that whole big gripe is is uh, 1:24:11.840 --> 1:24:16.400 you know they cut down all the long leaf um 1:24:16.600 --> 1:24:21.439 for pitch and like masting all kinds of things, and 1:24:21.479 --> 1:24:25.519 then lob lolly came up in its place. But it 1:24:25.560 --> 1:24:27.960 doesn't have it doesn't support it does doesn't support that 1:24:28.120 --> 1:24:33.639 understory of like that grassland ecosystem underneath it all kinds 1:24:33.640 --> 1:24:36.200 of trouble with the quail and whatnot. Yeah, this is 1:24:36.200 --> 1:24:39.200 all planted in lab lolly blah blahly plantation. We need 1:24:39.240 --> 1:24:41.840 to have Abernathy on to talk about lob lollies and 1:24:42.360 --> 1:24:46.679 long leaves. Hopefully we'll be seen in this spring anyhow. Yeah, well, 1:24:46.680 --> 1:24:50.080 the bark flakes, like when you're climbate, you know, it's 1:24:50.080 --> 1:24:52.840 just bark coming off everywhere. With this squirrel, I mean 1:24:52.920 --> 1:24:56.880 it was like an avalanche barks climbing down the tree. 1:24:56.920 --> 1:24:59.000 You know, I'm like, holy cow, I've never seen that, 1:24:59.360 --> 1:25:01.559 but the when I saw today, Yeah, he got got 1:25:01.560 --> 1:25:03.920 to watch him under the standing on the ground. You 1:25:03.960 --> 1:25:08.120 know how most schools like they sort of hop um, 1:25:08.360 --> 1:25:11.160 they're always hopping, you know. Three times, this dude was 1:25:11.200 --> 1:25:14.840 walking like a cat, like he's got a gate to him, 1:25:14.920 --> 1:25:19.639 you know. Bear. Yeah. Yeah, So my question is, what's 1:25:19.680 --> 1:25:21.200 it one of the chances that we're gonna get to 1:25:21.200 --> 1:25:23.639 come here and hunt them someday. Well, they had ees 1:25:23.720 --> 1:25:26.840 a protection until recently didn't. They were recently downlisted. Yeah, 1:25:26.920 --> 1:25:30.519 they're they're not a listed species and make the news. Yea, 1:25:30.640 --> 1:25:33.960 it did. It just depended on what news you're watching. Yeah, 1:25:34.000 --> 1:25:37.320 but you know, only only two percent of species to 1:25:37.360 --> 1:25:40.559 get s a listing have ever made it off get 1:25:40.600 --> 1:25:43.960 delisted because of recovery. They get delisted because it was 1:25:43.960 --> 1:25:47.840 a mistake and there's like a taxonomical error, or they 1:25:47.840 --> 1:25:51.599 get delisted because there's a population people weren't aware of. 1:25:52.400 --> 1:25:54.680 But I think it's like one point seven percent of 1:25:54.760 --> 1:25:58.360 things that get on come off because of recovery, like 1:25:58.560 --> 1:26:01.200 an alligator. Guy. Yeah, so just like a big story, right, 1:26:01.240 --> 1:26:05.679 like the bald eagle. Now wolves in some areas, grizzly 1:26:05.680 --> 1:26:08.639 bears in some areas. Usually like hear about a D listing, Yeah, 1:26:08.720 --> 1:26:12.040 but this is a quiet delisting. Yeah, del Marva was 1:26:12.080 --> 1:26:16.760 excited about it. Yeah, and then uh, I know this 1:26:16.880 --> 1:26:20.599 is I don't think there's any plans to hunt them. Yeah, 1:26:21.640 --> 1:26:25.120 there's there's too much habitat loss, it's too small of 1:26:25.120 --> 1:26:29.000 a substanc population. But it's a fox squirrel, yes, just 1:26:29.080 --> 1:26:32.439 a big box squirrel. Could you could come here and 1:26:32.439 --> 1:26:35.960 just hunt gray squirrels and fox squirrels and have the 1:26:36.040 --> 1:26:38.400 enjoyment of getting to see del Marva. I guess they 1:26:38.439 --> 1:26:40.840 seem like pretty small gray squirrels from what I've been seeing, 1:26:42.320 --> 1:26:44.760 I mean, not the big giant del Marva fox. I'm saying, 1:26:44.760 --> 1:26:49.519 your your general Joe blow. Gray squirrels not like small 1:26:49.520 --> 1:26:52.479 squirrel hu. I have been looking at him, and I 1:26:52.520 --> 1:26:56.000 mean not that I wouldn't hunt them happily, but they 1:26:56.000 --> 1:26:58.360 seem to run a little small, which should be like 1:26:58.400 --> 1:27:03.840 part of Bergman's rule, right, Bergman's principle that that you're 1:27:03.840 --> 1:27:08.000 at the sub you're at the southern, you're getting towards 1:27:08.400 --> 1:27:11.559 your more southerly portion of their range, so they're gonna 1:27:11.600 --> 1:27:15.559 tend towards a more diminutive form. And I would say 1:27:15.600 --> 1:27:18.479 squirrel hunting is probably not as culturally big around this area. 1:27:18.560 --> 1:27:20.280 Is that there's in some other parts of the country 1:27:20.320 --> 1:27:23.080 you don't hear about people. People aren't as sophisticated down here. 1:27:23.720 --> 1:27:26.799 I don't know well, and it's I mean, it's it's shifted. 1:27:27.120 --> 1:27:29.320 You know, it's the dearest king down here, and people 1:27:29.320 --> 1:27:33.320 don't want squirrel hunters messing up their dear word was. Unfortunately, 1:27:33.439 --> 1:27:35.519 I've heard that that's the thing, is the squirrel hunters 1:27:35.560 --> 1:27:38.320 become It's such a shame the squirrel hunt has become 1:27:38.360 --> 1:27:40.840 such a second class citizen. I have had guys come 1:27:40.880 --> 1:27:43.960 to me and say that I've had two things happened. 1:27:43.960 --> 1:27:46.120 I've had friends come and say that they feel bad 1:27:46.320 --> 1:27:50.479 hunting squirrels during deer season. And I've had squirrel hunters 1:27:50.520 --> 1:27:52.599 come to me and say, this happened to Murphy. Kevin Murphy, 1:27:53.080 --> 1:27:55.000 who a guy has gotten down out of his tree 1:27:55.040 --> 1:27:59.040 stand on public land in the Mannistee National Forest in 1:27:59.120 --> 1:28:01.800 my home state of you can a guy got down 1:28:01.800 --> 1:28:04.479 out of his tree stand to accost my friend for 1:28:04.600 --> 1:28:07.720 having the audacity to be out hunting schools during our 1:28:07.760 --> 1:28:10.759 treat I would have punched that guy in the face. 1:28:12.080 --> 1:28:14.240 That's that's a little much. But we do. I would 1:28:14.240 --> 1:28:17.519 have felt, as I was gonna do, we have to. 1:28:18.280 --> 1:28:21.160 You know, we have a really long deer season in Maryland, 1:28:21.200 --> 1:28:24.280 you know, from September to the end of you're on 1:28:24.280 --> 1:28:26.640 the well. It makes it tough, I mean, you know, 1:28:26.800 --> 1:28:29.719 for for small game hunters, squirrel hunters and all, because everything, 1:28:29.800 --> 1:28:31.439 you know, a lot of it is least up for 1:28:31.479 --> 1:28:33.439 deer hunting and all. And and so that's one of 1:28:33.479 --> 1:28:36.760 the reasons why we don't have squirrel hunters or small 1:28:36.800 --> 1:28:39.479 game hunters is because it is because it's all taken 1:28:39.560 --> 1:28:41.960 up by deer, you know. And and there's been different 1:28:41.960 --> 1:28:44.760 times where We've been asked to extend deer season even 1:28:44.800 --> 1:28:47.760 longer in February, and it's like, you know that just 1:28:48.160 --> 1:28:51.360 that just takes more even more time away from you know, 1:28:51.479 --> 1:28:53.439 these folks that want to I want to do you know, 1:28:53.479 --> 1:28:56.840 these other these other hunts. You know, there's there's yeah, 1:28:56.840 --> 1:28:59.439 there's validity to that because you know, we used to 1:28:59.479 --> 1:29:05.120 hunt squirrels because squirrel season, well, archery deer open October one, 1:29:05.160 --> 1:29:08.800 squirrel open September, so you'd pour the coals to the 1:29:08.840 --> 1:29:11.880 squirrels for two weeks and then you'd pick them back 1:29:11.960 --> 1:29:14.800 up again when deer season end, so you'd be hunting them, 1:29:14.840 --> 1:29:16.680 you know, after Christmas. You'd hit them hard until the 1:29:16.760 --> 1:29:18.920 end of season. And that's like kind of like when 1:29:18.920 --> 1:29:21.280 you hunted squirrels. Yeah, so but here, you know you 1:29:21.320 --> 1:29:22.960 have the first you know, you have the first week 1:29:23.000 --> 1:29:26.080 of September basically because because deer season is into Friday 1:29:26.120 --> 1:29:28.400 after Labor Day, so you have the first week of 1:29:28.439 --> 1:29:30.800 September in general, and then like said, you might have 1:29:30.840 --> 1:29:33.040 a couple of weeks in February, and otherwise you gotta 1:29:33.080 --> 1:29:35.000 if you're a squirrel hunter or a small game hunter, 1:29:35.240 --> 1:29:38.760 you gotta share the woods with deer hunters, it's not 1:29:38.800 --> 1:29:40.880 always real fun. So if you're a deer hunter down here, 1:29:40.880 --> 1:29:43.240 you're hunting der five months out of the year. You 1:29:43.320 --> 1:29:45.719 start the Friday after Labor Day and go to January 1:29:45.800 --> 1:29:51.000 thirty one. Yeah, and then if you have I'm gonna 1:29:51.040 --> 1:29:52.240 move down here. And then if you want to like 1:29:52.320 --> 1:29:54.719 hunt some of the urban managed hunts, some of those 1:29:54.760 --> 1:29:56.560 do go into February, so you could be hunting and 1:29:56.600 --> 1:30:00.760 you can be like usually it's usually deer season. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 1:30:02.560 --> 1:30:04.920 but then you can wait for springing turkey hunt. Yeah. 1:30:05.600 --> 1:30:08.000 I got my first. I went turkey, got my first 1:30:08.040 --> 1:30:11.120 turkey this year. That was like the greatest thing ever. 1:30:11.400 --> 1:30:13.240 That was a ton of fun. Telling you what, man, 1:30:14.000 --> 1:30:17.000 that's that's even more exciting than squirrel hunting. Well, yeah, 1:30:17.360 --> 1:30:20.320 for sure. So did you have it? Do you have 1:30:20.320 --> 1:30:25.479 any final thoughts? Marshall myself. Yeah, no, I just say 1:30:25.640 --> 1:30:28.360 come on over to Blackwater, check it out, come hunt, 1:30:28.479 --> 1:30:30.639 come visit. You're gonna get all kinds of the hunters 1:30:30.640 --> 1:30:32.920 mad at you for saying that. Oh I know, but 1:30:33.000 --> 1:30:35.519 that's okay, m Yeah, they might bump into you. All 1:30:35.520 --> 1:30:38.800 the public resources we're there. Yeah, you gotta get we 1:30:38.880 --> 1:30:41.479 gotta get more hunters engaged, and we've got to get 1:30:41.520 --> 1:30:44.920 people who haven't hunted before get excited about it. And 1:30:44.960 --> 1:30:46.360 the only way we're going to do that is if 1:30:46.360 --> 1:30:49.240 we're welcoming to new hunters, and so can people personally. 1:30:49.600 --> 1:30:51.880 Can people personally call you up and ask you what's up? 1:30:52.200 --> 1:30:56.400 People do? Oh? Yeah, yeah, I encourage that. Yeah, we 1:30:56.479 --> 1:30:59.040 have public meetings. I talked to folks who we get 1:30:59.080 --> 1:31:01.320 ideas and comments. Doesn't mean I can do everything that 1:31:01.320 --> 1:31:03.920 people suggest, No, I mean of some guys, like if 1:31:03.960 --> 1:31:05.360 some guys like, hey, man, I'm gonna come down and 1:31:05.439 --> 1:31:08.160 check out this secret dear thing, there's resources for him 1:31:08.360 --> 1:31:12.519 him or herd figure it out. Oh yeah, yeah, No, 1:31:12.720 --> 1:31:15.120 I think it's really important that we get more people 1:31:15.400 --> 1:31:17.599 to see the benefits of hunting and just getting outdoors 1:31:17.600 --> 1:31:20.439 in general. So we've got to be welcoming to do it. 1:31:20.920 --> 1:31:23.519 I've noticed too that you guys have made the hunt 1:31:23.600 --> 1:31:26.720 unit maps available on Google Earth and downloads, so you 1:31:26.720 --> 1:31:30.040 can look at it out in your smart That's probably 1:31:30.080 --> 1:31:35.800 the biggest impedance to new secret hunters is it's an 1:31:35.840 --> 1:31:40.400 intimidating landscape you get out there, and especially black Water, 1:31:40.520 --> 1:31:43.400 and that's like the nastiest of the nasty stuff on 1:31:43.560 --> 1:31:46.080 Fishing Bay and black Water, and that's where most new 1:31:46.120 --> 1:31:49.920 secret hunters go to. And that's uh, it's you can 1:31:49.920 --> 1:31:53.840 get lost out there easy, and uh it turns a 1:31:53.840 --> 1:31:55.720 lot of people off. A lot of people come down 1:31:55.800 --> 1:31:58.160 try it once and it's like, oh, no, more of 1:31:58.320 --> 1:32:01.040 that for me to give a sense. I was watching 1:32:01.040 --> 1:32:03.960 the video where a guy was hunting secret here out 1:32:04.000 --> 1:32:07.400 of his boat just to give you just like a yeah, 1:32:07.439 --> 1:32:09.520 like an example, to give you a sense of the landscape. 1:32:09.520 --> 1:32:12.599 And he was talking about the importance of raising when 1:32:12.600 --> 1:32:16.400 he leaves his boat, of raising a flag pole. He 1:32:16.520 --> 1:32:18.800 must not be a big GPS guy. Of raising a 1:32:18.880 --> 1:32:22.120 flagpole the blaze orange flag on it. Yeah, you can 1:32:22.160 --> 1:32:24.040 lose your boat so he can read, so he can 1:32:24.080 --> 1:32:27.760 locate his boat. Yep. Yeah, but don't let that scary off. 1:32:29.200 --> 1:32:32.120 I mean it's a great it's a great are you 1:32:32.280 --> 1:32:37.599 said earlier? I mean it's a fishing wildlife mecca. You know, 1:32:38.000 --> 1:32:41.639 you can multiple species, you can go fishing. I mean 1:32:41.680 --> 1:32:44.439 you can pack so much and uh, a week's trip 1:32:44.560 --> 1:32:46.760 or a weekend trip or whatever. I mean, it's really 1:32:46.800 --> 1:32:48.799 an awesome Yeah. We don't even touched the blue crabs 1:32:48.800 --> 1:32:54.040 and snakeheads. That's a whole another podcast. So, uh, Brian, 1:32:54.040 --> 1:32:55.920 you got any concluding thoughts you want to add things 1:32:55.960 --> 1:32:58.840 you need't get a chance to know. There are a 1:32:58.880 --> 1:33:02.599 great species or unique species, and it's the only place 1:33:02.640 --> 1:33:05.559 in the country or probably maybe in the world that 1:33:05.640 --> 1:33:08.800 you can hunt these guys. And they're probably one of 1:33:08.800 --> 1:33:11.840 the purer strains around of secret deer. A lot of 1:33:11.880 --> 1:33:13.880 secret deer have been hybridized. And also it's really a 1:33:13.960 --> 1:33:18.839 unique opportunity. Um, yeah, have Um, this is my concluder. 1:33:19.120 --> 1:33:21.519 That's a question. Have I know you guys have some 1:33:21.560 --> 1:33:25.800 c w D in Maryland. Have c w D positive 1:33:25.840 --> 1:33:30.599 white tales interfaced? Here's what I'm getting at. Any idea 1:33:30.600 --> 1:33:34.439 about whether CWD is gonna make the jump? Um can so? No? 1:33:34.600 --> 1:33:38.240 I mean in Maryland from a geography to standpoint or 1:33:38.280 --> 1:33:40.000 nowhere close. And we got the whole chich I speak 1:33:40.000 --> 1:33:44.200 base separating, so c w ds in western Maryland. Um, so, 1:33:44.240 --> 1:33:48.840 I wouldn't expect necessarily our secret deer to be exposed 1:33:50.080 --> 1:33:53.680 to c w D from that standpoint. Um, it's very 1:33:53.760 --> 1:33:57.479 plausible that that that's sick of deer, you know, or 1:33:57.560 --> 1:34:00.519 susceptible of c w D. No one's talc them together 1:34:00.520 --> 1:34:01.960 in the pen yet to see what happened, to see 1:34:02.000 --> 1:34:05.000 if they transmit. Now, well you've done it with monkeys. Yeah, 1:34:05.000 --> 1:34:06.439 oh yeah, they've done a lot of you know, they've 1:34:06.479 --> 1:34:09.800 done a lot of testing like that. Um just recently Yeah, yeah, 1:34:09.840 --> 1:34:13.040 that the word research out of Canada shows that, yeah, macaques, 1:34:13.120 --> 1:34:16.719 that they were able to infect macax with c w D. 1:34:17.479 --> 1:34:19.720 I guess kind of like implanting it. Yeah, it was 1:34:19.760 --> 1:34:22.120 really well, they didn't implant it, but it was really 1:34:23.080 --> 1:34:25.919 had high aggressive, higher loads than what you would expect 1:34:26.080 --> 1:34:29.720 like you or I sitting down and eating venison to 1:34:29.840 --> 1:34:33.920 night for dinner. So but you know that's still you know, 1:34:34.439 --> 1:34:37.480 you have to look at that and take that into consideration. 1:34:37.520 --> 1:34:40.080 And the CDC that is, you know, they they looked 1:34:40.120 --> 1:34:42.880 at it and they actually changed their wording for you know, 1:34:43.000 --> 1:34:45.640 for for hunters that are hunting in c w D 1:34:45.680 --> 1:34:50.360 areas and they're a little bit more um strongly, they've 1:34:50.439 --> 1:34:53.040 more strongly worded it now that you should really consider 1:34:53.040 --> 1:34:55.200 getting your dear tested if you're if you're hunting in 1:34:55.200 --> 1:34:57.160 a c w D area. That's what I've done the 1:34:57.200 --> 1:34:59.000 last couple of years. Man, when I've hunted c w 1:34:59.120 --> 1:35:01.519 D area. It's just it's it's the problem is it's 1:35:01.560 --> 1:35:03.960 hard because there's not a lot of areas to get 1:35:03.960 --> 1:35:08.000 that testing done. Um, So we need to make some 1:35:08.080 --> 1:35:12.160 improvements there, um for for hunters, you know, to be 1:35:12.200 --> 1:35:15.920 able to do that. But back to your original question there, 1:35:16.000 --> 1:35:17.719 you know, our our sick of deer or a little 1:35:17.720 --> 1:35:20.639 welk um. They're in the serve you know, service family, 1:35:20.960 --> 1:35:23.439 So I'm sure they're probably susceptible c w D. I 1:35:23.439 --> 1:35:26.720 wouldn't see why they why they wouldn't you know? You 1:35:26.800 --> 1:35:30.719 are white tailed dear mule deer ls you know, falor 1:35:30.800 --> 1:35:32.559 deer about the only ones that come to mind that 1:35:32.840 --> 1:35:35.439 I don't think, you know, they've been able to to 1:35:35.520 --> 1:35:39.160 get c w D into falor dear. Yeah. So, but 1:35:39.920 --> 1:35:42.240 so that's an interesting question you asked, though, Steve, because 1:35:42.560 --> 1:35:44.400 it made me think of something that I have a 1:35:44.439 --> 1:35:47.720 question for you, Brian. Recently, you know, this is the 1:35:47.760 --> 1:35:49.759 time of your e h D and the tongue starts 1:35:49.800 --> 1:35:52.200 hitting deer and and people are finding a lot of 1:35:52.200 --> 1:35:55.599 dead white tails this time of year, and increasingly I'm 1:35:55.640 --> 1:36:00.120 seeing guys on the internet forums referring to oh it's 1:36:00.120 --> 1:36:02.360 either cf C w D or e h D, and 1:36:02.360 --> 1:36:05.200 they're talking about us to ensure populations, and people are 1:36:05.240 --> 1:36:08.080 starting to sling the term around like it's it's commonplace 1:36:08.120 --> 1:36:10.000 and whatnot. And I wonder if the Department's doing any 1:36:10.040 --> 1:36:12.760 outreach to sort of combat that perception that yeah, we 1:36:13.120 --> 1:36:17.040 you know, let hemorrhagic disease, blue tongue. Sure you know that, right. Well, 1:36:17.040 --> 1:36:19.320 we're in the midst of a pretty good outbreak right 1:36:19.320 --> 1:36:22.960 here in Dorchester and Caroline and Talbot. So yeah, but 1:36:23.000 --> 1:36:24.960 it's kind of like, I mean, I don't mean, but 1:36:25.120 --> 1:36:27.479 that's not as scary. No, no, no, it's not your 1:36:27.520 --> 1:36:29.800 right because there's not a human because it's like a 1:36:29.840 --> 1:36:32.040 thing that happens. But a lot of our hunters, but 1:36:32.120 --> 1:36:34.680 a lot of our her hunters, I don't think use them. Interchange. Yeah, 1:36:34.680 --> 1:36:36.320 I use them and don't realize that there are two 1:36:36.360 --> 1:36:39.520 separate diseases. Um. So yeah, I mean, yeah, we've we've 1:36:39.560 --> 1:36:42.280 done press releases about h D and yeah, but i'd 1:36:42.280 --> 1:36:43.720 be like saying your body like I don't know, he's 1:36:43.720 --> 1:36:47.040 got the flu or cancer. Yeah, It's like, yeah, it's 1:36:47.040 --> 1:36:49.680 just like the two different things. It's completely different, you know. 1:36:49.800 --> 1:36:53.720 I mean, I mean completely different magnitude. Um, a lot 1:36:53.720 --> 1:36:56.680 of hunters probably feel h D is more of a 1:36:56.720 --> 1:36:59.960 threat than c w D because screws up the hunt. Yeah, 1:37:00.080 --> 1:37:03.240 screws up the hunt. Yeah, you know, I mean we 1:37:03.360 --> 1:37:06.720 probably you know, we we we've got there's a couple 1:37:06.720 --> 1:37:08.680 of areas over here where we've we've probably had a 1:37:08.720 --> 1:37:10.880 pretty good you know hit on the deer population. Now 1:37:10.880 --> 1:37:13.880 they'll bounce back in a year or two, five years 1:37:13.920 --> 1:37:18.000 to be back to having not even five years. Yeah. 1:37:18.080 --> 1:37:20.880 So but but yeah, so I was a concern from 1:37:20.920 --> 1:37:24.080 that standpoint. Um, but but from a human standpoint, c 1:37:24.320 --> 1:37:25.960 w D is definitely the you know, the one we 1:37:26.000 --> 1:37:28.519 have to watch. I'm gonna be more concerned about. So 1:37:29.080 --> 1:37:31.320 stuff keeps me up. What's a big hit for e 1:37:31.560 --> 1:37:36.200 h D? Like a really big hit would be fifty 1:37:36.520 --> 1:37:41.320 of the popular that was seventy year or something. Uh, Well, 1:37:41.360 --> 1:37:43.040 you know what, if you're in a and if you're 1:37:43.040 --> 1:37:46.080 in a naive state, like a deer population that's never 1:37:46.080 --> 1:37:49.759 seen it before, you probably could get you know, over fifty. 1:37:50.600 --> 1:37:52.600 But here in the East where we've had you know, 1:37:52.600 --> 1:37:55.120 we've had h D since the seventies, I think, or 1:37:55.960 --> 1:37:58.240 now it's probably might even been before that they found 1:37:58.280 --> 1:38:02.679 in New Jersey and fifty five identified or identified it, Yeah, 1:38:02.760 --> 1:38:06.200 and fifty five and described it scientifically. It might have 1:38:06.200 --> 1:38:08.280 always it could have been there before that, right, but 1:38:08.640 --> 1:38:11.080 not too much longer there because we were reintroducing deer 1:38:11.120 --> 1:38:14.000 and thirties and forties, so it wouldn't have been too 1:38:14.360 --> 1:38:17.920 much before that. Well. Anyways, long story is a big 1:38:18.000 --> 1:38:20.720 hit around here. Yeah, would be a big hit. And 1:38:20.760 --> 1:38:22.880 that's the term. Naive state would be a state where 1:38:23.160 --> 1:38:26.280 naive the first time of population, the population that hasn't 1:38:26.320 --> 1:38:29.760 had it before. Yeah, like Ontario this year, because I've 1:38:29.760 --> 1:38:32.840 been to some naive states. Yeah, but not for not 1:38:32.920 --> 1:38:37.720 for HD, like Ontario had their first had their first 1:38:37.920 --> 1:38:41.559 HD cases here Connecticut. They're in the news right now. 1:38:41.760 --> 1:38:45.160 They have HD right now. So it's there's light at 1:38:45.200 --> 1:38:47.800 the end of the tunnel, slowly moving moving. Have we 1:38:47.880 --> 1:38:51.439 gone over HD before? We've never done. Is it possible 1:38:51.439 --> 1:38:54.800 to give us like a two to five minute yeah, 1:38:55.000 --> 1:38:58.840 HD or e H D episodic and this can you 1:38:58.840 --> 1:39:02.000 include how people call and blue tongue is Well, they're 1:39:02.000 --> 1:39:04.400 two separate, they're two different things. I mean, yeah, they're 1:39:04.400 --> 1:39:08.200 two different strains. Yeah, there's actually yeah, no, No, they're 1:39:08.200 --> 1:39:11.000 actually different. There's different strains of of h D m 1:39:11.120 --> 1:39:13.840 r agics disease, and some of them are e h 1:39:13.960 --> 1:39:16.479 D and some of them are blue tongue. And then 1:39:16.600 --> 1:39:20.280 within within there's there's different different strains. So like here 1:39:20.320 --> 1:39:22.959 in Maryland, we're in an outbreak right now, so we'll 1:39:22.960 --> 1:39:24.880 try to get our hands on samples. We send them 1:39:24.880 --> 1:39:29.320 to Georgia to the Southeast Cooperative Wildlife Disease Study. They 1:39:29.360 --> 1:39:31.600 do the testing for us, and we have e h 1:39:31.680 --> 1:39:34.720 D two and e h D six. We're working on 1:39:34.760 --> 1:39:38.479 our deer right now. It's a virus and it's spread 1:39:38.520 --> 1:39:41.800 by noseums, gnats, midges, whatever you wanna call them, co 1:39:41.880 --> 1:39:46.160 coiled days um and nothing you can do about it. 1:39:46.320 --> 1:39:48.840 You know, it's no threat the humans um, but when 1:39:48.840 --> 1:39:51.080 it gets into a deer population, I mean you know, 1:39:51.120 --> 1:39:53.919 it can kill a significant number a number of the animals. 1:39:53.920 --> 1:39:56.640 And like we were just talking about, if it's a 1:39:56.720 --> 1:39:59.200 if it's a population that's been exposed to h D 1:39:59.400 --> 1:40:01.960 over the year, they're more resistance, so you won't see 1:40:02.000 --> 1:40:05.960 us significant of an impact. But as this disease or 1:40:06.080 --> 1:40:09.439 virus moves north and gets into into these populations that 1:40:09.439 --> 1:40:12.000 have never been exposed. It can it can hit them 1:40:12.040 --> 1:40:16.920 pretty hard, um, you know, and then up mortality. Um. 1:40:17.000 --> 1:40:18.839 And that's why you see it in the news Michigan 1:40:19.760 --> 1:40:21.599 a couple of years ago, it was it was big 1:40:21.640 --> 1:40:24.400 news in Michigan for when it where my brother Matt 1:40:24.439 --> 1:40:29.439 lives in eastern Montana, they got swept. Yeah. So it's 1:40:29.439 --> 1:40:31.840 starting to you know, it's it's really starting to radiate out. 1:40:32.680 --> 1:40:35.240 You know, here in the East, we haven't seen any detrimental, 1:40:35.520 --> 1:40:38.880 long term issue, you know, issues with it. I mean 1:40:38.880 --> 1:40:42.400 that what's the spacing on epidemics about it seems like 1:40:42.520 --> 1:40:46.960 every five to seven years we get a big outbreak. 1:40:47.360 --> 1:40:50.080 Now we'll have deaths every year, you know, it'll spring 1:40:50.160 --> 1:40:53.840 up every year. Um, but it seems like every five, six, 1:40:53.880 --> 1:40:56.680 seven years we get a pretty big out Does it 1:40:56.800 --> 1:41:00.920 correlate with a big population, Well, that would be part 1:41:01.000 --> 1:41:03.960 of it, you know, because there's that certain there's that 1:41:04.040 --> 1:41:08.599 certain proportion of the population that is resistant and that 1:41:08.640 --> 1:41:11.960 proportion that's not resistant. As it builds up, that gets 1:41:12.040 --> 1:41:13.640 up to a certain point and then you'll see a 1:41:13.920 --> 1:41:19.200 bigger outbreak. Um. So so that that plays into it. Um. 1:41:19.240 --> 1:41:23.320 There's also theories that weather plays into it. UM, it 1:41:23.800 --> 1:41:26.880 seems like possibly if it's a drought, if it's a 1:41:26.920 --> 1:41:31.439 mild winter, any drought summer or a dry summer. UM. 1:41:31.479 --> 1:41:34.679 The thought is that you have reduced areas with water 1:41:35.520 --> 1:41:39.320 UM and also probably increased breeding. Maybe areas for these 1:41:39.439 --> 1:41:43.000 for these gnats might congregate dear more around the water 1:41:43.040 --> 1:41:46.000 that's available, so you know, you might have a worse 1:41:46.160 --> 1:41:49.840 year for for HD. UM. There's some theories out there 1:41:49.920 --> 1:41:52.559 that maybe we're starting to see it further north based 1:41:52.600 --> 1:41:55.360 on maybe some changes in wind patterns. Maybe some of 1:41:55.400 --> 1:41:58.320 these maybe some of these gnats are actually physically being 1:41:58.960 --> 1:42:02.479 transported to new areas, you know, where they haven't been before. 1:42:02.560 --> 1:42:04.519 So there's a lot we still don't know UM, And 1:42:04.520 --> 1:42:07.080 there's a lot of research going on. UM. But it 1:42:07.200 --> 1:42:09.439 is it's a it's been around, like I said, I mean, 1:42:09.479 --> 1:42:13.120 it was identified in New Jersey and fifty five I think. 1:42:13.200 --> 1:42:16.439 So it's nothing to you know, really get worked up about. 1:42:16.560 --> 1:42:18.640 But but it happens, you know, it happens every year. 1:42:18.720 --> 1:42:20.759 So what are the symptoms and how does the killer 1:42:20.800 --> 1:42:23.679 dere so want to ask, what's death look like? So 1:42:24.000 --> 1:42:27.479 it is pretty vicious. I mean, it's very fast acting. UM. 1:42:27.520 --> 1:42:30.599 If it's a deer that that's not resistant to it UM. 1:42:30.640 --> 1:42:35.120 It literally breaks down cells and breaks down blood vessels UM, 1:42:35.240 --> 1:42:39.519 and the deer hemorrhages to death. Um or or you know, 1:42:38.439 --> 1:42:41.839 or you know causes fluid on the lungs and basically drowns. 1:42:42.360 --> 1:42:46.000 UM causes a real high fever. So a lot of 1:42:46.040 --> 1:42:47.840 times we'll get a you know, we'll get a call, 1:42:47.920 --> 1:42:51.000 hey there's three deer fluting in my pond, or you know, 1:42:51.160 --> 1:42:54.280 some somebody may be fishing on a nanniocoke and found 1:42:55.000 --> 1:42:58.759 two or three. Yeah. Yeah, it drives into water so um. 1:42:58.800 --> 1:43:02.000 But it actually it's you know, it's hamorrhagic disease. So 1:43:02.000 --> 1:43:04.559 I mean it acts on them real quick. Um. There 1:43:04.600 --> 1:43:07.720 is a certain proportion that survives that you know, if 1:43:08.000 --> 1:43:10.400 if they get it UM. And an easy way to 1:43:10.439 --> 1:43:12.639 tell if it's a deal that that that had HD 1:43:12.760 --> 1:43:14.560 and survived is you know, if you're writing and you 1:43:14.640 --> 1:43:16.960 kill a deer, if the hooves are all sloughing off 1:43:17.720 --> 1:43:21.479 because of arrests hoof growth, I guess, And then if 1:43:21.479 --> 1:43:24.559 they survive it, then when the who's start growing again, um, 1:43:24.560 --> 1:43:27.160 it's sloughs off, so their their hooves will look pretty 1:43:27.200 --> 1:43:30.720 pretty rough. Yeah, so you know, the water thing explains 1:43:30.760 --> 1:43:34.680 something that happened to me once years ago when the 1:43:34.760 --> 1:43:39.280 Lower Yellowstone had an outbreak. I was at the tax 1:43:39.400 --> 1:43:43.960 therm was there in Miles City, and his shot was 1:43:44.000 --> 1:43:46.920 just full of bucks that he was doing euro Mountain 1:43:46.960 --> 1:43:52.200 on giants. Yeah, And I was like, what the hell 1:43:52.200 --> 1:43:54.320 all these bucks doing here? And he's like, man, these 1:43:54.320 --> 1:43:56.120 are all things farmers are pulling out of the river, 1:43:56.320 --> 1:43:59.160 is that right? And no one knew the bucks like this, 1:43:59.240 --> 1:44:00.720 Like I didn't know. I you know, I spent a 1:44:00.760 --> 1:44:02.639 lot of time knocking around there, like a whole class 1:44:02.680 --> 1:44:05.400 of bucks. He just didn't know existing down in those 1:44:05.640 --> 1:44:08.320 willow you know, down like the willow choke bottoms and stuff. 1:44:08.360 --> 1:44:10.320 But yeah, he said, he said, every farmer in town 1:44:10.360 --> 1:44:13.519 is bringing them all these bucks. He's buckheads dragging about 1:44:13.600 --> 1:44:17.080 these giants. You know a lot of times, you know, 1:44:18.000 --> 1:44:21.080 we'll hear all. It hits bucks harder, and I don't 1:44:21.400 --> 1:44:23.360 I think if you looked into the data that you're 1:44:23.439 --> 1:44:26.800 just you just see that buck first, you know, And 1:44:26.840 --> 1:44:28.880 I think that's what your mind perceives. But I think 1:44:28.880 --> 1:44:31.880 it's an equal opportunity virus. I think it's probably you know, 1:44:31.880 --> 1:44:34.479 it's probably hitting any of them, but this this area 1:44:34.520 --> 1:44:36.840 as well gets uh, this part of the river gets 1:44:36.840 --> 1:44:40.000 bad ice dams. They had ice dams so bad in 1:44:40.080 --> 1:44:41.960 the forties that they had to take a like a 1:44:41.960 --> 1:44:45.240 full on bomber. It took an Air Force bomber and 1:44:45.320 --> 1:44:48.200 dropped ordinance to break up an ice dam that was 1:44:48.200 --> 1:44:51.600 gonna flood mild City. They then levied some parts of 1:44:51.640 --> 1:44:54.519 the town off to protect it from overflow from ice dams. 1:44:54.560 --> 1:44:57.400 But a couple of years ago big ice dam formed 1:44:57.439 --> 1:45:00.760 up and flooded all the lowlands. Eventually the ice dam 1:45:00.840 --> 1:45:03.760 breaks up, and we're down in there, uh, fish and 1:45:03.800 --> 1:45:06.920 calfish and one around looking for turkeys and whatnot in 1:45:06.960 --> 1:45:10.439 the spring, and there's fish hundreds of yards away from 1:45:10.439 --> 1:45:13.400 the river, just like laying out in fields and out 1:45:13.400 --> 1:45:16.080 in like cottonwood groves, just fish every where. My boy says, yeah, 1:45:16.080 --> 1:45:18.160 they get up in there when the ice dam forms 1:45:18.160 --> 1:45:20.800 and they're swimming all over hell. And then I think 1:45:20.880 --> 1:45:23.240 when it busts that drains also fast, just leaves the 1:45:23.240 --> 1:45:25.320 fish and so it just be like catfish and carpet 1:45:25.360 --> 1:45:29.040 suckers scattered. That's yeah, all over in the woods everywhere. 1:45:29.600 --> 1:45:31.920 It looks like it was like rain and fish, so 1:45:32.840 --> 1:45:37.840 death and miles city. Um, the last thing was blue tongue. 1:45:37.840 --> 1:45:40.320 Do we get to what I was? Yeah, just it. 1:45:42.080 --> 1:45:45.439 It causes a blood flow issue and oxygen deprivation. So 1:45:45.560 --> 1:45:47.559 a lot of times you'll the tongue will turn blue. 1:45:47.880 --> 1:45:50.320 But only the one form causes or do they both 1:45:50.360 --> 1:45:52.680 cause blue tongue? They both, as far as I know, 1:45:52.800 --> 1:45:55.280 they both can cause. Yeah, the blue tongue issue. A 1:45:55.360 --> 1:45:58.200 lot of you'll see stars in the mouth. Um, that's 1:45:58.200 --> 1:46:00.360 another sign that it was a deer that at each 1:46:00.560 --> 1:46:02.080 Is it in life or death that it gets a 1:46:02.080 --> 1:46:05.200 blue tongue? Um, I think it's very as it happens 1:46:05.200 --> 1:46:08.080 so fast. I think it's right there at that you know, 1:46:08.200 --> 1:46:11.920 the deer could still be alive. Um so, but it, 1:46:12.080 --> 1:46:14.160 like I said, it, it acts pretty quick on them, 1:46:14.280 --> 1:46:17.040 um than four probably hours forty eight hours. They go 1:46:17.200 --> 1:46:21.600 from probably alive too dead that fast? Do you guys? So, 1:46:21.640 --> 1:46:24.000 do you guys even bother going in and youthanizing sick? 1:46:24.080 --> 1:46:27.600 Dear that it happens so quick that very most of 1:46:27.640 --> 1:46:29.760 the times when we get a report, it's a deer 1:46:29.800 --> 1:46:32.479 that that was that's already dead or the you know, 1:46:32.560 --> 1:46:34.400 the land owner says Yeah, I was watching it was 1:46:34.439 --> 1:46:37.639 sick and then now it's dead. So you know, it happens, 1:46:37.800 --> 1:46:40.720 It happens pretty quick. They're not clinical for for a 1:46:40.760 --> 1:46:43.320 long time c w D chronic wasting disease, you know, 1:46:43.360 --> 1:46:45.920 I mean they can carry that, yeah, very slow acting, 1:46:45.960 --> 1:46:51.720 but hdn hit some pretty quick. Yeah. So yeah, it 1:46:51.760 --> 1:46:53.559 sounds like if you are going to catch when, I'll 1:46:53.560 --> 1:46:58.400 go with the h D. Yeah, sick of deer. Just 1:46:58.400 --> 1:47:00.160 just a little note one that as far as we 1:47:00.280 --> 1:47:03.200 never sick of deer, do not get HD or a 1:47:03.200 --> 1:47:06.280 blue tongue. Now, back when I was doing my my 1:47:06.400 --> 1:47:08.839 graduate work, I had a bunch of deer radio collared 1:47:08.960 --> 1:47:11.320 not too far from here, and we had an HD 1:47:11.439 --> 1:47:16.400 outbreak and it killed I forget what percentage, but it killed. 1:47:16.560 --> 1:47:19.120 It killed quite a few of my radio collared white tails, 1:47:19.160 --> 1:47:22.880 and never touched one of my sick of deer, so 1:47:23.080 --> 1:47:25.800 that I had of callers really not saying it's impossible, 1:47:25.840 --> 1:47:28.599 but but just based on on what we've seen, we've 1:47:28.600 --> 1:47:31.040 never had a report of one. We've never been able 1:47:31.080 --> 1:47:32.960 to test one. And like I said, none of my 1:47:33.080 --> 1:47:39.080 radio collared animals ever, I never got it, So wow, man, Yeah, 1:47:39.160 --> 1:47:40.960 maybe someday My kill would be like, what's the white tail. 1:47:41.720 --> 1:47:45.599 I don't think. I don't. I just know about sex, 1:47:48.439 --> 1:47:51.400 all right, guys, Well, thanks so much man uh for 1:47:51.479 --> 1:47:55.200 coming up. Thank you. It's exciting. I think people will 1:47:55.240 --> 1:47:56.680 be really interested in this, and the people from here 1:47:56.680 --> 1:48:00.320 will be real mad we talked about this at such length. Yeah, 1:48:00.720 --> 1:48:03.479 thank you very much. I really appreciate it. Thank you 1:48:28.520 --> 1:48:28.560 m