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Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything, all right. The first order of business

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Speaker 1: is I need to do a correction. We were talking

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Speaker 1: there day for a long time, long long time on

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Speaker 1: this same program about Ursus arctos okay, or the brown bear,

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Speaker 1: and I was talking about all kinds of stuff I

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Speaker 1: don't know the truth about, and am Dr Jarco wrote

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Speaker 1: in to clarify something to me. He was like, I

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Speaker 1: was saying, how I I don't know where I got

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Speaker 1: this in my head that ursus the old name for

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Speaker 1: grizzlies was ursus horeblus, like horrible bear. But this guy

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Speaker 1: called in and clarified that in fact, it's that's like

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Speaker 1: an example of trinomial nomenclature, where it's ursus arctos horeblus.

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Speaker 1: Ursus arctos hereblas was and is a name for interior

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Speaker 1: brown bears, so like the grizzly bear would be ars

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Speaker 1: arctos horeblus. I thought that they dropped the horeblus because

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Speaker 1: it was like bad pr for the bears. But he

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Speaker 1: says that is not correct. He said No. He had

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Speaker 1: a couple of those gripes of things that I kind

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Speaker 1: of don't really agree with. Oh yeah, he clarified something

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Speaker 1: I also said that I used as an example of

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Speaker 1: trinomial nomenclature would be Ursus arctos arctos. He says, that's

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Speaker 1: perfectly valuable, value valid. But I should have pointed out

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Speaker 1: that that is Ursus arctos arctos is the Eurasian grizzly,

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Speaker 1: not found in North America. And he had a third

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Speaker 1: gripe where he said that, and I this is what

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Speaker 1: I kind of disagree with them about. I was talking

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Speaker 1: about binomial Norman clature, which is like the Lennean system,

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Speaker 1: where you have uh, for instance, Ursus arc toes, which

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Speaker 1: should be like northern bear. He was saying that the

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Speaker 1: second word in that, so if you like Homo sapiens, okay,

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Speaker 1: I used the second word like it was like genus

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Speaker 1: and species, but he said the second part of the epithet,

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Speaker 1: So in Homo sapien, the second part of the epithet

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Speaker 1: refer is just called that's just the species. It's not

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Speaker 1: fair to say that the second part is the species,

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Speaker 1: because the two things make up the thing. So they're

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Speaker 1: Dr Jarco. I'm saying your name right now. Second thing, Uh,

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Speaker 1: do you guys go with seeker Sicka? Because I hear

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Speaker 1: both ways you like I've been corrected. I used to.

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Speaker 1: When I first came here a year ago, I called

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Speaker 1: him Sicca, and I was corrected by some of the locals. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think the locals are think. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: pauses a lot of confusion with the Sitka, the Sitka

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Speaker 1: black tail deer. Yep. But I have a hunting video

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Speaker 1: that Janna shared with me, called by by an outfit

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Speaker 1: called Chesapeake Pursuits or something like that, And those are

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Speaker 1: the first boys I've ever heard say Sica, not sca.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yourt an opinion about it? The locals, I

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Speaker 1: think say Sica. I say Sicca, did you do? And

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Speaker 1: you're the damn biologists, So I'm probably wrong the locals,

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Speaker 1: I think so because I say Seca to do let's

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Speaker 1: do intros as though dealing as though dealing poker. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's me and then there's yea, hon do no do

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Speaker 1: a big long intro, oh, big long intro. I just

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Speaker 1: don't have to just because yeah, he's no one. I'm

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Speaker 1: Marcia pratings, and I'm the project leader for the Chesapeake

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Speaker 1: Marshaland's National Wildlife Each Complex, which includes Blackwater National Wildlife Refuge,

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Speaker 1: Eastern Neck, Martin and Susquehanna. We're a significant percentage of all.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna go SICCA right now, I'm going Seek of

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Speaker 1: the whole show. You can stick with sick, stick with yeah, alright,

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Speaker 1: all the same thing. We're not talking about sick of

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Speaker 1: black tails? All right? You know what I'm going with

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Speaker 1: SICKA al right, which is where a significant percentage of

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Speaker 1: all I still can't decide if I want to go

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Speaker 1: with seeker sick of what do you recommend? I'm going

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Speaker 1: I'm going sick. I live here, so I'm going to

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Speaker 1: go with the locals I'm running. I'm running sick of

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Speaker 1: the whole program. Yeah, and you run SKA just out

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Speaker 1: of fairness, it's like to keep it bipartisan. So that

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Speaker 1: refuge complex is where a significant percentage of all the

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Speaker 1: sick of deer living in the United States of America live.

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Speaker 1: That's correct. You probably can't venture a guest though, as

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Speaker 1: to what percentage almost one percent between the refuge and

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Speaker 1: the state land um that represents a pretty big percentage

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Speaker 1: of the public of the public land, there are there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of deer on private land to um.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, the refuge system definitely holds a huge part

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Speaker 1: of the population of the of the total population. Yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: anything else you want to add about your you want

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Speaker 1: to clarify what? Um? What what falls under your jurisdiction

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Speaker 1: there under your job title? Sure, Well, I'm the refuge

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Speaker 1: manager here at Blackwater, so I oversee basically everything that

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Speaker 1: goes on on the refuge, including our biological program, our

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Speaker 1: visitor services, our maintenance, everything from taking care of the

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Speaker 1: almost two hundred thousand visitors that come visit Blackwater each

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Speaker 1: year to taking care of all of our roads and uh,

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Speaker 1: you name it. So we make two hundred thousand count

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Speaker 1: hunters because you run so you oversee the hunting programs. Yes, correct,

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Speaker 1: and that do you have a number on hunters that

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Speaker 1: visit your Yeah, we have about eighteen hundred individual hunters

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Speaker 1: that apply for permits each year, and they apply for

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Speaker 1: over permits different types of hunts. Yeah, so there's more

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Speaker 1: permits than hunters. Yeah, that's correct. If you look at

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Speaker 1: how our hunting season runs, you can apply for quota

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Speaker 1: hunts non quota hunts different days and so forth, so

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Speaker 1: that's why, and so one hunter might have multiple permits, right,

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Speaker 1: So that's why I distinguished. We've got about eighteen hundred

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Speaker 1: deer hunters, I should say, because we also have waterfowl

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Speaker 1: hunting and turkey hunting on the refuge too, to a

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Speaker 1: lesser degree. So even though you run a permit we'll

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Speaker 1: get into more that we'll get into this a greater detail.

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Speaker 1: But even though you run a permit system there, you

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Speaker 1: don't turn away hunters like anyone that wants to hunt

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Speaker 1: and get a crack at it. Well, we do have

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Speaker 1: it depends we have quota hunts where we only allow

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Speaker 1: so many hunters per unit, so they'll be limited in

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Speaker 1: that respect. In our muzzle loader hunts and our shotgun

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Speaker 1: hunts get pretty full. Archery stays are our trees open yea,

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Speaker 1: and that goes from September eighth, the state opener, until

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Speaker 1: it ends at the end of January. So our tree

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Speaker 1: has been unlimited, all right. So jumping along on our intros, Steve,

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Speaker 1: Steve Kendrot, I'm a wildlife biologist with the USDA, but

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Speaker 1: today I'm joining you just as a avid sick of

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Speaker 1: hunter you're running sick of I'll run sick of today. Yeah. Really,

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Speaker 1: but if we're going to do that, we also have

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Speaker 1: to talk about he has a house in Dorchester County,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, he's you're a whole You're like a resident here,

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Speaker 1: your local Yeah sort of. I don't think the locals

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Speaker 1: ever consider anybody that ain't born here resident. But uh,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, I've been here for since two thousand two.

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Speaker 1: We've been pursuing the elusive secret deer or sick of deer.

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Speaker 1: I bounced back and forth. We're gonna start talking about

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Speaker 1: and bull miners. The locals talk about minnows and turtles.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, there's a whole lexicon of interesting names for

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Speaker 1: critters down this way. I'm with you. Um. And then finally, Brian,

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Speaker 1: I am dear biologist for Maryland Department of Natural Resources.

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Speaker 1: So you're the head chief. You've kind of like these words.

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Speaker 1: You're the main dear biologists. Sure, but Maryland is a

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Speaker 1: small state. So yeah, there's there's we have. There's two

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Speaker 1: two dear biologists that work for the state, myself and

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Speaker 1: and uh George Tempco does urban suburban We have a

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Speaker 1: lot of urban suburban areas in the states. So we

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Speaker 1: have a biologist dedicated to trying to deal with whitetail

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Speaker 1: deer and and there's areas so, but I mainly set

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Speaker 1: mainly you know, UM, analyze harvest data overseas collection to

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Speaker 1: harvest data and biological data, any of the research we're doing. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, we've done numerous studies on one sick of

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Speaker 1: deer down here? UM and uh so yeah, are you um,

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Speaker 1: how long have you been doing that for? Um? I

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Speaker 1: have been with d n R for sixteen years, and

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Speaker 1: I was involved with deer research before that through penn

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Speaker 1: State University. Um, so I've been I've been dealing with

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Speaker 1: deer for plus years. What got you wanted to do?

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Speaker 1: Was it deer hunting? They got you wanted to become

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Speaker 1: a biologist? Yeah, I grew up and I'm a Pennsylvania kids,

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Speaker 1: so I grew up deer hunting and and then and then, UM,

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Speaker 1: is it true that you kind of got away from

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Speaker 1: a little bit now that that's all you work on? Um? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I got away for I escaped from deer for a

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Speaker 1: brief period when I was a fishing wildlife service and

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Speaker 1: then I got sucked back in. I did actually did

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Speaker 1: my master's down here on one stick on white tail,

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Speaker 1: and then I started with the stage or shortly after.

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Speaker 1: So do you still hunt? Yeah? Oh yeah definitely, so

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Speaker 1: not as much as I used to, um, because I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of working when everybody else is hunting. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: now do you here's a quick question for you. Then

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Speaker 1: we'll get into the main matter. Do you ever find?

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Speaker 1: Are you ever? Like, man, I wouldn't have got that

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Speaker 1: buck if it weren't for all my schooling? No? Or

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Speaker 1: does it totally different? Like being a deer biologist and

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Speaker 1: being a dude shooting deer is like two different things,

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Speaker 1: two different tool kids, different thing. Yeah, different things. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: when you you know, when you work with a deer

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Speaker 1: for forty hours a week, it's you know, it's changes

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Speaker 1: things a little bit. So I mean definitely the knowledge helps,

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Speaker 1: no question. The knowledge here that you pick up helps. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so so you feel that, uh like you feel that

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Speaker 1: being a your experiences as I guess because yeah, you

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Speaker 1: must look at so much like deer sign all the

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Speaker 1: time and just like well like learn to recognize areas

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Speaker 1: that hold a lot of animals and not Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean you know that you have that insight. Um. But

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Speaker 1: then also just the access to data, I mean, just

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Speaker 1: the data end up though. Yeah, you just know how

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Speaker 1: to mind it. Yeah, well I don't. I mean you could, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you couldn't mind it and use it. But yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: all right now I'm gonna go back to the beginning.

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Speaker 1: Who okay, why are the deer here? Just to clarify

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Speaker 1: this deer species sick of seka deer aren't if you've

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Speaker 1: never heard of them? Is because they're not even they're

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Speaker 1: not a native. They're not native wildlife, right, they're non natives.

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Speaker 1: And how well do you know the I know that

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Speaker 1: it's not totally knowable because there's some mystery about there

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Speaker 1: there there, where they came from and how they got here?

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Speaker 1: But can you sketch that out? Like why is it

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Speaker 1: that a little corner of Maryland has a huntable population

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Speaker 1: of a deer that no one's ever heard of before? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of an interesting story. Um. They the subspecies

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Speaker 1: we have, So you were talking about your brown bears

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Speaker 1: and nomenclature. So the subspecies we have is service Nippon Yukushimi.

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Speaker 1: Um so there, and that's a Japanese subspecies, yakusha. And

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Speaker 1: they came from Yakushima Island off the southern tip of

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Speaker 1: Japan back in the early eighteen hundreds. They were apparently

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Speaker 1: imported from Yakushima Island into Ireland. Not sure what the

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Speaker 1: connection there was or anything, but so the deer we

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Speaker 1: have here didn't come straight from Japan. They they were

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Speaker 1: imported into Ireland. From Ireland, they were gifted to various individuals,

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Speaker 1: probably pretty important people, um yeah, and they ended up

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Speaker 1: in Britain, etcetera. And then at some point in the

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Speaker 1: late eighteen hundreds or actually early nineteen hundreds, Um, apparently

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Speaker 1: there were half dozen maybe um, that were gifted to

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Speaker 1: an individual here in Cambridge, Maryland. Has nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with this story. Not this story. Now, I didn't give

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Speaker 1: him some of these or something like that. Not Theodore Roosevelt.

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Speaker 1: Now he's not involved in this story that I'm aware of.

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Speaker 1: That Clement Henry was a gentleman's name told me that.

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Speaker 1: Did you tell me that I might have that? Dude.

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Speaker 1: I feel like every every non native story from back

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Speaker 1: then is like, yeah, someone gave Teddy six of these

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Speaker 1: or Teddy took six elk and shifted to New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: Right now, not not in this story that I'm aware of.

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Speaker 1: And who was the guy again, Um, Clement Henry was

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Speaker 1: the gentleman here in Cambridge that had him. And was

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Speaker 1: he thinking like was he like, you know what I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna do is I'm gonna take these deer and I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna cut him loose out in the marsh. No, he

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Speaker 1: had him in captivity. And I don't think the story

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Speaker 1: is real clear whether as he got too many in

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Speaker 1: captivity he would release them or if he just all

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Speaker 1: at once said hey, I'm getting rid of my dear

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Speaker 1: and I'm gonna stick him out here on James Island,

225
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Speaker 1: which is the mouth of the little chop tank. Uh see,

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Speaker 1: so he caught it. He thought maybe that did they'd

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Speaker 1: stay on the island. Yeah, I think that was probably

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Speaker 1: the thought, and you know put him out on the island. Um,

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Speaker 1: of course they didn't. You know, we were the let

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Speaker 1: Well the last hundred years basically there's been a slow

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Speaker 1: expansion across southern Dorchester. And is it true that he

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Speaker 1: may be cut looses to as few as two so

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Speaker 1: well he not it could have went further back than that,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, if you so, we had the Smithsonian Institute

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Speaker 1: look at some genetics work and this was back fifteen

236
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Speaker 1: years ago. Um. But their genetics work and then even

237
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Speaker 1: some more recent genetics work from University of Delaware UM

238
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Speaker 1: shows that there is basically no variation in these animals.

239
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Speaker 1: And so yeah, they probably our population probably started from

240
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Speaker 1: two individuals, and those individuals may even have been siblings,

241
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Speaker 1: is the way they have. But no, these animals are

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Speaker 1: doing great, so like a tremendous bottleneck. But then they

243
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Speaker 1: don't have a problem with nothing. Now if you either

244
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Speaker 1: over the years, different there's been different studies. They've looked

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Speaker 1: at parasite loads and just you know, general health, and

246
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Speaker 1: actually they are cleaner and healthier than our native whitetail deer.

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Speaker 1: Does that original island still have some Um, No, that

248
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Speaker 1: island at that time, the islands, Yeah, actually they still

249
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Speaker 1: do have that subspecies. But the interesting thing is we

250
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Speaker 1: probably have more, I'm sure we do. We have more

251
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Speaker 1: here than what they have over there. Has anyone ever

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Speaker 1: taken one from that island in Japan and one from

253
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Speaker 1: here and just stood them next to each other to

254
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Speaker 1: see if there's some visible Because when you just start

255
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Speaker 1: a population with a small amount, you could have some Yeah,

256
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Speaker 1: you would have some freaks, right, you could have some

257
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Speaker 1: unusual animals and then have create. If you look at

258
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Speaker 1: pictures on the internet, they're identical, you would say. If

259
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Speaker 1: you looked at one for a picture of one from

260
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Speaker 1: Yukushi mile and you think you were looking at the

261
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Speaker 1: Dorchester County sick. So when they first when he first

262
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Speaker 1: drive him in, were people trying to regulate them? No?

263
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Speaker 1: Early on, yeah, early on there weren't seasons in bag

264
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Speaker 1: limits for him, and they weren't very popular, to be

265
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Speaker 1: honest with you. You know, for as far as a

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Speaker 1: hunted hunted species go UM regulations really started in uh,

267
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Speaker 1: probably in the eighties, I guess was when with when

268
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Speaker 1: we started really got aggressive, you know, started recognizing, hey,

269
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Speaker 1: they may be an issue, they could be a problem, um,

270
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Speaker 1: and they started to be regulated in that manner to

271
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Speaker 1: try to not not to get rid of them. You know,

272
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Speaker 1: we never they kind of found a niche down here.

273
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Speaker 1: They're not like an invasive species like nutria. UM. So

274
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Speaker 1: we've never approached at that you with the philosophy that

275
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Speaker 1: we were going to eradicate them like neutria because they

276
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Speaker 1: have kind of found niche and they're they're popular, um.

277
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Speaker 1: But at the same time, we don't want a whole

278
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Speaker 1: del Marva Peninsula full of secondary either. So you do

279
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Speaker 1: not want that, No, no, we want to try to

280
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Speaker 1: keep them here in Dorchester. And but they've they've expanded.

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Speaker 1: They they're like expanding now slowly. Yeah, they have expanded. Uh,

282
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Speaker 1: you know they're in Delaware now. Um, we've had Delaware

283
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Speaker 1: has had a couple. What's their take on harvested? They

284
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Speaker 1: would prefer to keep them out. So it is there

285
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Speaker 1: is there a line around the known Like Steve you

286
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Speaker 1: were saying, is if you look at what do you

287
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Speaker 1: call the peninsula where I know we're on the del

288
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Speaker 1: Marva Peninsula, explain that just for people to to understand, Well,

289
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Speaker 1: that's that big chunk of land between the Chestpeake Bay

290
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Speaker 1: in the Atlantic Ocean, comprised of all of the state

291
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Speaker 1: of Delaware, the portion of Maryland that's on the eastern

292
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Speaker 1: shore of the Chesspeake Bay, and then the Virginia portion.

293
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Speaker 1: So del Marva how peninsula gets and what's the peninsula

294
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Speaker 1: that has all the deer if you look at it?

295
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Speaker 1: But does they have a name as a peninsula? Is

296
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,120
Speaker 1: that just Dorchester County? Yeah, Dorchester County is is uh

297
00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,879
Speaker 1: sits between the chop Tank and the Nanacooke River, so

298
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Speaker 1: it it sort of forms a peninsula, I guess, but

299
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Speaker 1: it's not recognized as one. Yeah. And if you're looking

300
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Speaker 1: at a map and you find if you go to

301
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Speaker 1: Maryland and then you find Dorchester County, you'll see there's

302
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Speaker 1: a highway sort of a that that county sort of

303
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,000
Speaker 1: sits on a peninsula, and there's a highway that kind

304
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Speaker 1: of cuts the the base of the peninsula diagonally fifty

305
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Speaker 1: Highway fifty right. And most of these deer live south

306
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Speaker 1: and west of that highway. Is that correct? Correct? Correct?

307
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Speaker 1: And it's about how many well, our modeling would put

308
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Speaker 1: it somewhere between ten and fifteen thousand. That's probably a

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Speaker 1: minimum um. We harvest three thousand a year, so you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at a percentage, if you're

311
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Speaker 1: harvesting of your animals, are side of that put you

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Speaker 1: in that ballpark somewhere between ten and ten and fifteen

313
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Speaker 1: thousand probably And is there like a has they won't

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Speaker 1: gone and drawn a band like if you say that

315
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,320
Speaker 1: they're welcome here, because they're not. They're occupying one they're

316
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Speaker 1: very popular with hunters, and they're occupying a landscape where

317
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,439
Speaker 1: they're not really coming into direct contact. They use the

318
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Speaker 1: area differently than white tails. They like to hang out

319
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Speaker 1: in places of the white tails don't like to hang out.

320
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Speaker 1: But has anyone ever drawn a line and said that

321
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Speaker 1: we will have zero tolerance for these deer across this line? Now,

322
00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,119
Speaker 1: we don't approach it from that, from that, you know,

323
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Speaker 1: to that black and weight of a degree, it's just

324
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Speaker 1: you know, like I said, we we would like to

325
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Speaker 1: keep them in in southern Dorchester. You know, they're in

326
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Speaker 1: there in why Comic Coo, They're in Somerset, a few

327
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:53,600
Speaker 1: of them in Somerset. Um, generally they're expanding up our rivers.

328
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Speaker 1: You know then, whether it's the job Tank or the

329
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,200
Speaker 1: Nanna Cooke, the Marshy Hope off Banana Cooke. Um, that's

330
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,240
Speaker 1: how like they're fine in their way into Caroline in

331
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Speaker 1: some of these areas. Um. So you know, we'll just

332
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Speaker 1: tweak seasons and bag limits to try to to try

333
00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,639
Speaker 1: to keep that population here, you know, contained in Dorchester

334
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Speaker 1: as much as we can. But but now there's never

335
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,520
Speaker 1: been really a hard line drawn. I mean, and do

336
00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:19,920
Speaker 1: you feel like you guys can can you like open

337
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:24,679
Speaker 1: and close the valve pretty reliably by by tweaking hunting seasons. No,

338
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:29,600
Speaker 1: we can't. Um, you know, we can do our best, um,

339
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,399
Speaker 1: but we don't have enough hunters and a lot of

340
00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,359
Speaker 1: the locals down here would disagree with that. But in

341
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,159
Speaker 1: all honesty, we don't have enough hunters and enough hunting

342
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:42,320
Speaker 1: pressure to really regulate this species or port white tails

343
00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:47,600
Speaker 1: for that matter. Um. Our hunters are saturated. So you know,

344
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,200
Speaker 1: I mean, what do you mean as far as seasons

345
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,280
Speaker 1: at bag limits. I mean we're very we're very we're

346
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,680
Speaker 1: very liberal. Yeah, they have we have it very. We're

347
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,520
Speaker 1: in the good old days of deer hunting. You know,

348
00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,680
Speaker 1: when you can hunt from September to the end of

349
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,120
Speaker 1: jam neary Um and we have if your archery hunting

350
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,840
Speaker 1: white tails down here, you can, we have there's no limit.

351
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,879
Speaker 1: You can antler lists. You can harvest as many antlerless

352
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,879
Speaker 1: white tails with archery equipment as you want in a

353
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,840
Speaker 1: in a year. So you know, our average hunter takes well,

354
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:17,880
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's just two point zero

355
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,919
Speaker 1: deer now was one point nine deer for a lot

356
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,200
Speaker 1: of years. But our average hunter takes two point zero

357
00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:24,119
Speaker 1: deer a year because that's what they can use. And

358
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:25,720
Speaker 1: that's you know, they're not going to waste deer and

359
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,960
Speaker 1: and expend more efforts. So you know, and our hunter

360
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,800
Speaker 1: numbers are fairly stayable. They've been stay able over the

361
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,199
Speaker 1: last you know, ten years or so. But but we

362
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,280
Speaker 1: have half as many hunters is what we have when

363
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,280
Speaker 1: we peeked back in the seventies. Um and that's not

364
00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,399
Speaker 1: just a Maryland phenomena, you know what I mean, you

365
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:44,120
Speaker 1: look at the East. Not so bad in the Midwest

366
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,440
Speaker 1: or the West, but in the East, I mean, hunter

367
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,800
Speaker 1: numbers are really seriously declined. And um so as a

368
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:54,480
Speaker 1: deer manager kind of concerns you. So there's how many,

369
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,040
Speaker 1: like if you've if you have half, like half the

370
00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,879
Speaker 1: participation you had in the sevenies, the generation to go, Yeah,

371
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,000
Speaker 1: how many what what's the do you know? Like how

372
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,120
Speaker 1: many how many more or less deer do you have

373
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,199
Speaker 1: now than the seventies. Gosh, we have ten times as

374
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 1: many deer. It was way more deer for a person. Yeah,

375
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 1: So what were they doing back then? Well, you know

376
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 1: a lot of them weren't deer hunters back then. I

377
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,600
Speaker 1: should I should clarify that, you know, I mean, I

378
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,919
Speaker 1: mean that's when I'm saying, when I'm saying half as

379
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,919
Speaker 1: many hunters. That's all hunters, so that's small game, that's waterfowl,

380
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 1: that's deer, et cetera. Because and we didn't have as

381
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 1: many deer hunters back then because there weren't as many

382
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:36,560
Speaker 1: deer obviously. UM. So you know, we may have we

383
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,840
Speaker 1: probably have more deer hunters now than what we had

384
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,199
Speaker 1: in the seventies. UM, but it's just because of that

385
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 1: shift from small game. You know, we don't have pheasants anymore. Yeah,

386
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 1: you probably don't know that history. That's that's for another time. Yeah.

387
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,920
Speaker 1: You know, well back in back in the sixties seventies,

388
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,440
Speaker 1: pheasants were really popular, you know, small games species, and

389
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 1: they still are in the mid you know, in the Midwest. UM.

390
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,120
Speaker 1: But a lot of our hunters when when when pheasants

391
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 1: went away, they shift, Some of them shifted the deer,

392
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 1: some of them probably stopped hunting or just kept hunting waterfowl. UM.

393
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 1: So you know, we total numbers, we don't have near

394
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 1: the hunter effort that we that we used to have,

395
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:26,479
Speaker 1: UM and and and deer hunting days actual number of

396
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 1: deer hunting days peaked in the nineties actually UM at

397
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,080
Speaker 1: about a hundred and I think we had probably a

398
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: hundred and seventy five thousand days of deer deer hunting

399
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:40,680
Speaker 1: effort um, and now we have I think my last

400
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: estimate was about eighty thousand, So again about about half

401
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 1: half as many hundred days going towards deer. But they're

402
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 1: killing probably twice as many deer for that half effort. Yea,

403
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 1: So are there more sick of deer now than anytime?

404
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 1: I'm in sick of deer history? Our models would say yeah,

405
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 1: so the last now it bounces around, but but just

406
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,360
Speaker 1: and just say the last five years. Yes, there's more.

407
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 1: Over the last five years, there's there's more secreteer sickredeer

408
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 1: than than any common history. That population is increasing, Yeah,

409
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 1: I'm going back to say population. So, uh, there is

410
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 1: the consensus that they're harder, that it's harder to hunt them,

411
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 1: because here's the thing I was reading your report. Harder

412
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,639
Speaker 1: to hunt them than what harder than hunting white tails

413
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 1: because they live so much longer than white hills, right,

414
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 1: which leads you to believe that it's like one of

415
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,399
Speaker 1: them has a That might not mean they're harder to hunt,

416
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 1: it's just there's like a less chance that they're gonna

417
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:50,880
Speaker 1: die from something like ten year olds are common, right, Yeah, yeah,

418
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,359
Speaker 1: I don't know if i'd say common. But we've had

419
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 1: We've probably had half a dozen that I know, or

420
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: over twenty um that I've had my hands. The one

421
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 1: that we're tagged back in like the late eighties or

422
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: early nine. You know that you're not going by tooth analysis.

423
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 1: Someone knows the year they hung a tag on that thing,

424
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 1: so it was already alive when I got tagged. Yeah,

425
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: we're and some of those were by tooth analysis, but um,

426
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: but yeah, you know, I mean we've had, we've had

427
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: them over twenty Again, they're not falling out of trees,

428
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,880
Speaker 1: but but yeah, it's not uncommon. They're definitely longer lived

429
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 1: than white tails. Do you think they're longer lived than

430
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 1: white tails? Because you probably can't even you probably can't

431
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,199
Speaker 1: know this. Absolutely they longer lived in white tails just

432
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 1: because they're just they live longer just or is it

433
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 1: because of predation is different on them? The other ones

434
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 1: can chime in, but I would say predation is different

435
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 1: as in, as in their their natural habits just make

436
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: them a little harder to hunt. They're a little more nocturnal.

437
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: The habitat they're in is just harder to hunt. You know,

438
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 1: you always hear all they're smarter than white tails. I

439
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: don't think they're smarter than white tails. Um No, they

440
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: just living twelve foot tall. They live in twelve foot

441
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: tall their security cover is just provides them an opportunity

442
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 1: to escape hunting pressure and they'll turn nocturnal like that.

443
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,959
Speaker 1: Um yeah, they used they use the ground like how

444
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 1: like a cotton til uses a briar pack. Yeah. Yeah,

445
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: and uh, A lot of people in Maryland use bait

446
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 1: as well, and I believe that bait tends to favor

447
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: nocturnal behaviors as well. So despite the fact that you know,

448
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 1: I think it enhances their hunting success, I actually think

449
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:31,479
Speaker 1: it contributes to less success. It concentrates the deer. They

450
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: don't have to move as much. They're not exposed to

451
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 1: hunters as they move across the landscape as they would

452
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: if they had the forge for natural foods. So I

453
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,719
Speaker 1: think it helps to sort of keep them small home ranges,

454
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: and that, you know, helps to minimize the pressure on

455
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 1: an individual deer. So you do get some that that

456
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: little lot longer. What I got a question Marsha's bating

457
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 1: allowed on the refuge. Baiting is not allowed any of

458
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: the refuges, and and and no public land, that's correct,

459
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 1: no abating on public to private land early. But it's

460
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 1: really heavily used that private land, right, Unfortunately it is.

461
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 1: And we're like it's like a patchwork quilt of landownerships.

462
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: So you've got Blackwater, it's a lot of contiguous land.

463
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: We've got about almost thirty tho acres, but you've got

464
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: these private landowners, a lot of sick clubs in particular

465
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: pockmarking the whole refuge as well and cranking out corn yep.

466
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: So it certainly impacts everything. So how how is it

467
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 1: like on the from the refuge side of things, how

468
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 1: is it determined by a national wildlife refuge to allow

469
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: or not allow bait? I mean, is that something that

470
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 1: would just is that something that would a decision that

471
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: would be made in d C that would just apply

472
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: to all refuges. Is that an individual decision that a

473
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,439
Speaker 1: refuge can make for itself. Well, that's a great question.

474
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 1: Everything that we do as a national wildlife as a

475
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 1: national wildlife refuge, all the ends on, is it going

476
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 1: to harm or or improve wildlife? Conservation. So that's the

477
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 1: first question we have, and we allow what we call

478
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: the Big Six, which are six priority uses hunting, fishing, wildlife, photography,

479
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: wildlife observation, ment, education, interpretation. These things are actually in

480
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 1: a law called the National Wildlife Refuge Improvement Act of

481
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 1: that says we're here for wildlife. That's the purpose. That's

482
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 1: why we're dedicated, and we're on the ground. And each

483
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 1: refuge will have a little bit different purpose. So, for instance,

484
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: Blackwater is was formed in ninety three for waterfowl primarily,

485
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: so that's our primary reason why we're here, and that

486
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 1: was kind of in response to the great decimation of waterfowl,

487
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 1: right like when when the refuge system started to spring up,

488
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 1: it was part of a national effort to recover waterfowl. Yeah,

489
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: and market, uh, the millinary trade was going on as well,

490
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: so market hunting in general for waterfowl, for other types

491
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: of birds, for thee yeah, the millinary trade in the

492
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds or people would kill e grits and

493
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 1: even hummingbirds and so forth to put them in their hats. Literally. Yeah,

494
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: we're talking about Roosevelt. If you read back to Roosevelt,

495
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: you read his earlier writings. I mean he just rails

496
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 1: against that industry. And because you used to be able

497
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 1: to go out, I mean people would just go out

498
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 1: and hunt any bird. You just go out shoot shore birds, herons,

499
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: and you get your hands on to sell feathers, right exactly.

500
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 1: It's kind of people are so familiar with that story

501
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: about shooting buffalo for hides, right, shooting passenger pigeons for me,

502
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: But people don't realize the decimation of non game birds

503
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: and also that waterfall from market hunting for me, but

504
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: also just the decimation of shore birds for guys for

505
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: tricking out people's hats. Yep, they have these egret plumage

506
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: in their hats, all sorts of really fancy hats and

507
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 1: those pretty good money. Yeah. You read about guys making

508
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: like small fortunes on it. Yeah. And and Teddy, the

509
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: very first refuge that was ever formed was in h

510
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: three by Teddy Roosevelt by executive order, was Pelican Island

511
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: Off the floor. That's reading about that, Yeah, because people

512
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: would just be they were just decimating the egrets and

513
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 1: the pelicans and other types of anything out there for

514
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: feathers in particular. Yeah, I tried to look down on

515
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: those guys that were doing that too much, because I

516
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: would have been if if I was alive at that time,

517
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: I would have been totally involved in that business. Not

518
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: a dubt my mind, because I don't know that they

519
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: were really aware. I think people have a hard time

520
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: conceptualizing like finiteness. Yeah right, so as always the visionaries

521
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: right like this, the guy that was complaining then would

522
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 1: be the same guy that's complaining about something now and

523
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: people are brushing them off. Is that we're not like

524
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: done making mistakes, No, not at all. You know, we

525
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: all act like, oh, you know, it's so silly. And

526
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: my dad always liked to joke that, um, they would

527
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: put cigarettes in his sea rations during World War Two,

528
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: so like every meal, you guy had three cigarettes in it,

529
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: and then we laugh about it now. But right now

530
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: we're making right now, we're doing something is equally stupid

531
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: that our children will laugh about that. We didn't realize

532
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: how stupid it was, Like we're not you know, we

533
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: never There's an inexhaustible supply of mistakes people make and

534
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: then later get hindsight. So at the time, I think

535
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: Roosevelt was like criticized for how much he griped about it, Yeah,

536
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: putting an end of the good times. We got a

537
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: earful yesterday about a guy, Um, we got a earful

538
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: yesterday by a guy who's uh uh it sounds like

539
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: very upset about any form of bag limits or regulations

540
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: ruining people's livelihoods. So yeah, yeah, So everything we do

541
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: on the refuge, we look at is it going to

542
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: be compatible with wildlife conservation and is it going to

543
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: hurt by a diversity? Is it going to hurt the

544
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: purposes of the refuge in particular? And when you look

545
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: at baiting, there's a lot of impacts that come from baiting.

546
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: Besides the fact you're like all the things we we

547
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: just talked about your impacting those species, you're also going

548
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: to be what do people do to get their corn

549
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:55,719
Speaker 1: out there? They take quads, all sorts of Yeah, they

550
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: end up ruining the ground. And it's a big impact

551
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: on the perspective I mean too. I mean just it's

552
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: it's you got the biological issue of baiting, and you know,

553
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: and the disease issues that get along with that. But

554
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: then on public l and you got that whole social issue.

555
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: I mean, somebody puts bait out and then the next

556
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: time I gets there before the guy to put the

557
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 1: bait out and sets up over You can imagine that.

558
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: You can imagine that would go. Yeah, when I was

559
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: growing up there, Yeah, when I was growing up, it

560
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: was funny because you could at the time it was

561
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: baiting was wide open, like when I grew up in

562
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: Michigan for deer. Later they started putting later because the

563
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: disease issues and the other things. They started putting limits

564
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: on time when you put it out there. But we

565
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: used to go down and you could buy this, I'm

566
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: not joking. We go to Grant, Michigan, and you could

567
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: fill a pickup truck up with reject carrots, misshaping carrots

568
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: with like that look like weird anatomical features, you name it,

569
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: Like carrots that were not like when you go buy

570
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: a bag of carrots and they're all just like these

571
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: beautiful straight carrots that that's like one in three. The

572
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: rest go for jews and pulp and animal fodder. But

573
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: you could you could fill a truck for five bucks

574
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: and then you'd go dump it out in the woods.

575
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: And we even griped about it, but it was like

576
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: we griped about it because we were aware that it

577
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: really changed the way dear act pushing them towards being nocturnal,

578
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: changing their travel patterns. But it was like, if you

579
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: can't beat them, join them, And that's the philosophy in

580
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: Maryland today. So we would be like, yeah, it sucks

581
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: that you can bait. Let's go put the bait out right,

582
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: Because if I had to do childhood all over again,

583
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: I would take a different approach and I would just

584
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: not do it because I feel like, you're not um.

585
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: I would not do it out of some moral thing.

586
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: I just feel like I would have learned so much

587
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: more about animals had you looked at had you been

588
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: able to go look at like, well where are they naturally?

589
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: Instead of like where can I make them go? It's

590
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: just a much more interesting lesson, Like you can learn

591
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: that like, yes, I learned the really interesting thing that

592
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: dear love carrots, or you could have learned like what

593
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: our deer doing when they're not eating on the carrots

594
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: you stuck out in the work. I call it scouting

595
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: in the bags in my mind. Yeah, well yeah, and

596
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: this is coming from a guy that gage like I'm not,

597
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: like I said, I can hardly can condemn it because

598
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: it was something I was heavily engaged in from the

599
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: time I was well and it legally bow hunt at twelve.

600
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: I was running bait from the time I was twelve

601
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: at the time I was eighteen. Yeah, and I mean,

602
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: and it does have its It does have its usefulness.

603
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, like I said, we struggle with

604
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: urban and suburban deer issues all the time. In therese

605
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: cases where it does give you access to deer that

606
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 1: you otherwise may not. You know, if you if you

607
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: have a refuge of deer, not not national wilde refuge,

608
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: but just an actual you know, a natural refuge where

609
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: you can't get to deer hunt them, you know, you

610
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: might be able to bait and pull some of those

611
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: deer over to an area where you can so. So

612
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: it does have some usefulness. But but you know, I

613
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: wish our hunters, like you said, I mean, we need

614
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: to get back to some more woodsman ship. This year

615
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: is a great example. It's a really good acorn year

616
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: in Maryland. This year, there's acorns everywhere. Deer are gonna

617
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: be on acorns. They're not going to go to corn.

618
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: Our hunters are going to continue to sit on corn

619
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: not see any deer because the deer at the nearest

620
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: white oak or you know, red oak or black oak

621
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: or whatever. So success is going to go down. Um, yeah,

622
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: no doubt. I mean any state in the appellation can

623
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 1: show you data that when we have a good mass year,

624
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: deer kill goes down and that that's why because there's

625
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 1: deer on acorns and you know they're not they don't

626
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: have to move as much for food so well, or

627
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 1: even the states that don't have that don't allow baiting

628
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: still show that draw They even those states show that

629
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: dropping in the harvest because there's more dispersed. The hunters

630
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: are not adapting or is that it that the deer

631
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: actually harder to hunt, Well, they're they're harder to hunt

632
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 1: in a way because yeah, they are more scattered and

633
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 1: more you know, you can't pattern them as well. Um,

634
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 1: but you just have you know, I think we have

635
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: a generation of hunters that that don't think about natural

636
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 1: behavior and natural food sources and you know, and where

637
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: to spend your time trying to trying to get to

638
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: there's there's animals. You know, I think there's a lot

639
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 1: of biological evidence out there that said we shouldn't be

640
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,280
Speaker 1: you know that there's really a lot of reasons not debate.

641
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 1: I mean, chronic wasting disease is a big one. I

642
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: mean we have chronic wasting disease in the region, you know,

643
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 1: in Maryland. Um So, No, I think there's plenty of

644
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,879
Speaker 1: biological reasons. That being said. Like I said, there are

645
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: areas where baiting is useful, and we have always been

646
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 1: a baiting steak, like Michigan. Um. And it's not going

647
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: to go away. No, No, it's not. I think in

648
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 1: fifty years it will. Well maybe in fifty years it might.

649
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: We won't have we won't we won't have any hunters

650
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: in fifty We've got bigger problems. Yeah, Oh, there's gonna be.

651
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: There's gonna be. There will be people cranking only at it.

652
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: I hope, hope were it would be tough and force

653
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: because it's you know, private land, and how many game

654
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 1: wardens would you need to patrol all the private land

655
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: that we have here? And yeah, but on unenforceable stuff

656
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:04,879
Speaker 1: you want, you just wind up getting a lot of

657
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,399
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, sure you're gonna have you're gonna

658
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: have some number of people who aren't gonna follow the rules.

659
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,399
Speaker 1: But a lot of people just follow the rules because

660
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: of the rule. Yeah, that's true. I don't think it's

661
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,879
Speaker 1: always like because you've got a club hanging over your head. Yeah,

662
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 1: I agree. You know, we've always had that philosophy. You know,

663
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: you can't you can't. You can't set rigs for the

664
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: for the dishonest guy or now, because they're going to

665
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 1: find a way to around the system, to break the

666
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: law regardless. So you know, I mean, the vast majority

667
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 1: of our hunters will you know, they'll obey whatever we

668
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: put out there. Like this morning, walking out, we could

669
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 1: have shot a deer in the dark with flashlights. Yea,

670
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: once we've gotten swamp. But it wasn't like, you know,

671
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: you're not thinking yourself like how that they'll never catch us,

672
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 1: right because we're both hunting, you know. Well yeah, but

673
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: you know, just personal ethics, a lot of us won't

674
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: shoot a deer in a certain circumstance just because it

675
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: doesn't match what we think is either fair chase or

676
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 1: an ethical harvest or you know what you came here for.

677
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, I'd be easy to walk two steps

678
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: down from the parking lot and have a deer pop

679
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: up and shoot it. But that's not kind of why

680
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: I'm out there. You know, I wanna have to work

681
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:16,760
Speaker 1: for it and learn from it. You wanted to happen

682
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 1: in a way that you wanted to happen in a

683
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: way that you laid out. Yeah, you know an interesting

684
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 1: thing that Steve's friend we're gonna get back for talk

685
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: about bear with me, but your friend had an interesting observation. Uh.

686
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 1: Steve's friend Matt was saying that his uh wife has

687
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: some like she likes the only wild meat. But he

688
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: was joking that there's like a rule that she prefers

689
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: that if it hadn't looked at him, that it was

690
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: unaware of his presence. You know, talk about like having

691
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: like a strict code of how you want things to

692
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: play out. There's like this idea. But when he said that,

693
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 1: it resonated with me because I was like, when I'm

694
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 1: telling the hunting story, I always like to point out,

695
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 1: as you many other hunters, I'm like, and it never

696
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: knew I was there, which you think is sort of

697
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 1: like a positive right when you're hunting, You like, it's

698
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 1: a positive if you I feel like, if you get

699
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: an animal that didn't know you were present, because it

700
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: suggests some level of like sneakiness, right, or some level

701
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: of that you were in its space, that it being

702
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,439
Speaker 1: unaware of your space. But that puts together this other

703
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: idea that it's like, um, there was never a relationship

704
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: between you in the animal where you lock eyes, So

705
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 1: it might be like how that might be kind of

706
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: partially what I feel when I feel that it's so

707
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,280
Speaker 1: important or so positive to get an animal that didn't

708
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 1: know you were there, is because we never established a report.

709
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: I had an experience once I had perfect stocking conditions,

710
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: saw a dough bed down in some golden and I

711
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: managed to stock with him ten yards of that deer,

712
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: and she never knew I was there, and I had

713
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,800
Speaker 1: to wait and wait and wait for her to stand

714
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 1: up and offer me a shot. And this whole time

715
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: I could watch her chewing her cut and just completely

716
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: oblivious to my presence. And when the moment came and

717
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: she stood up, I pulled back and I flubbed probably

718
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: one of the easiest shots right over back. And to

719
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: this day I think it's in my head. I just

720
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 1: I couldn't kill that deer after that, having that experience

721
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 1: with it, you know, it'd become like your pet. I've

722
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,720
Speaker 1: had that, having staring through binoculars where you watch buck

723
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: bed down at nine o'clock in the morning and then

724
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: you get set up for the shot and you wait

725
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 1: it's three pm until the buck finally stands up and

726
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: you've watched it change position in its bed, you know,

727
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: groom itself to it's cud, fall over, you know, watch

728
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 1: his antlers hit the ground while he's sleeping, get back up,

729
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:50,879
Speaker 1: you know, watch all that. And then by the time

730
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 1: they're like shooting times, you know it's coming. You're kind

731
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: of like, maybe he'll get away, you know, now that

732
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:58,879
Speaker 1: ever happens when I'm on the trigger, But if I'm

733
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 1: like looking for someone else some kind of maybe they'll

734
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 1: get away, especially they do something cute like turn around

735
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,399
Speaker 1: and kind of nibble or groom. Uh no, I don't

736
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: have that. So back to the refuge do do so

737
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 1: hunters that come out to hunt, like on the refugees

738
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: that primarily that's like people hunting, Yes, big game, Yeah,

739
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: that's the big species. Yeah, there's white tail too, but

740
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 1: like last year we did what three and fifth We

741
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 1: harvested three and only seventy seven white tail, So there

742
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,240
Speaker 1: are some white tails out there. And do people complain

743
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 1: about do people complain about the lack of baiting. I

744
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 1: haven't heard that yet. I think because it's been that

745
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: way for a long time, it's just accepted. It's just accepted. Yeah,

746
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,240
Speaker 1: that it's not that that's just not feasible on public

747
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 1: lands for all the reasons that we talked about. And

748
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: it gives you a different type of hunting experience too.

749
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 1: If you want to go out there and look for

750
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: sign and look for follows and try and find a

751
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: good trail, try and figure out where are they coming

752
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 1: from the marsh to the woods at what time. It's

753
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: a great experience that you won't get elsewhere. Do you

754
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: have you ever like figured out success like have you

755
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 1: guys looked at have you of you any kind of

756
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 1: idea of success rates for the refuge, like like like

757
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,800
Speaker 1: dear per hunter hour or any dear per day or

758
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: anything like that. No, we haven't done that. We haven't

759
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: done that yet. You killed? How tell me how many

760
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: you killed? Like last year or not? How many? Yea

761
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 1: three fifty sick and seventy seven white tail? And how

762
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,760
Speaker 1: many individuals? Do you have a guess how many individual

763
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 1: hunters rolled through the refuge? Yeah? I think we had

764
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:44,359
Speaker 1: sevent permits sold for deer waterfall. No, that's just dear.

765
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 1: That's just dear. Now do some people buy permits and

766
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 1: not show up that year? Yeah? Do some people show

767
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 1: up and hunt a whole ton? Yeah? And so this

768
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 1: past year we asked on the permit application for the

769
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 1: first time, how many how many days on average did

770
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 1: you hunt last year? Because we're trying to get a

771
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 1: feel for for exactly that. What's your sense of it,

772
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:07,399
Speaker 1: like are there? Is it kind of like everything where

773
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 1: you feel that there's some people that put in the

774
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,919
Speaker 1: time and they do real well, and some people that don't.

775
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,959
Speaker 1: They don't Oh yeah, Is it kind of like a meritocracy? Yeah?

776
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 1: I mean yeah. The folks that are willing to get

777
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: out there put in the time, deal with the mosquitoes.

778
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,240
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I was out there on opening

779
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,280
Speaker 1: day September eight, and it was pretty brutal that first

780
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 1: well actually the whole month. When it comes to heat

781
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 1: and mosquitoes and things like that, a lot of people

782
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 1: aren't out there putting that putting that time in. So

783
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: if you're willing to put on the chest waiters and

784
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: get out into the marsh and try and go where

785
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: other people don't go and figure it out they'll be successful.

786
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,720
Speaker 1: So what's access like there? So we've got a number

787
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 1: of different units. We've got parking lots and roads back there,

788
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 1: So it depends. Some of the units are easier to

789
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: access than others. Some you can park and you can

790
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: go out into open woods and never need to put

791
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,800
Speaker 1: on waiters. Others you could be you could be walking

792
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: quite a bit out in marsh that's really falling apart.

793
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,399
Speaker 1: So you take one two steps and then you fall

794
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 1: through a hole. And what about using canoes and kayaks

795
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: if people do that? Yeah, for the uh, this year

796
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 1: is the second year that we've allowed boat access to

797
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 1: certain units. Yep. So, and that's been a little bit

798
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 1: controversial as well because the people who are able to

799
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: walk back to those kind of really good secret spots

800
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: now all of a sudden they put in an hour

801
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 1: walk And yeah, and I went. I was with a

802
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: friend and on one of the units, and I spent

803
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 1: forty five minutes walking back there. And you know, I'm

804
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 1: kind of short and it doesn't take much to get

805
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 1: into marsh up to my waist and uh, you know,

806
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 1: I get into a tripod stand and sit there and

807
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,359
Speaker 1: rate at light. You know, you see a boat coming

808
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 1: up and accessing a different part of the marsh. But

809
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: that's kind of the game. So it's it's an interesting

810
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: conundrum because we want to offer access for people, you know,

811
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 1: for older people who can't do that. What about taking kids?

812
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: What have taken other folks. If I didn't have my

813
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: friend helping me get back to that spot, I probably

814
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 1: couldn't have gotten back there either. At least you said

815
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: there are a lot of places that aren't easy. That's correct,

816
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: there are. So the boat access is limited to a

817
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: few areas. We're trying it again this year and we'll see,

818
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 1: oh yeah, the lugs you're being able to see if

819
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 1: if it creates too much, yeah, tension between hunters or yeah.

820
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: And actually the bigger trouble that we've been having is

821
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: people putting in. If you've driven around this area, there's

822
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: a lot of ditches with water especially it's been kind

823
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 1: of dry, very dry until recently, but you could put

824
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 1: your kayaker, canoe in a ditch almost anywhere and get

825
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: to one of these waterways. So that's been an issue

826
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 1: with trespassing. And yeah, yeah, people putting not putting in

827
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 1: where they're supposed to for the refuge. But putting their

828
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,839
Speaker 1: boat in in a ditch literally and then going in,

829
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,439
Speaker 1: so that can cause access issues. And if you guys

830
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: have rules about where how you want where you want

831
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 1: people to park, yep, yep. And but the bigger issues

832
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 1: with private landowners. So some folks don't know and they'll

833
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 1: just put in and trespass on other people's property. You

834
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: can get to the refuge through our ramps, but you

835
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 1: can also get to the refuge through public um, I

836
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: mean private areas as well if you have permission. So

837
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: we don't want to cause problems for other people either.

838
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: I got you. And then uh back to like like

839
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: what are the hallmarks? Like? So what are the things

840
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: that the people who are successful at it? Like? What

841
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: do they do? I mean, is there a way you

842
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: can kind of describe the person who finds success trying to? Yeah,

843
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: I mean Steve's asking because we've been hunting for two days.

844
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 1: We don't have any success. Ye were by myself, like

845
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:37,720
Speaker 1: I said, I've been trying to. I've been gun hunting

846
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: for a long time, but I've just started bow hunting

847
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 1: and I myself have been trying to get my first

848
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 1: sicke as well with my bow. Um, So the thing

849
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 1: that that I've talked to the people who have really

850
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 1: been successful and they like to help other people be

851
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: successful too. Is is they put the time. I mean

852
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,760
Speaker 1: they're looking at aerial maps. They're trying to figure out, Okay,

853
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: this guy's going to go in the marsh here and

854
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 1: then the woods there. There's crops there, So they're looking

855
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: at the landscape. Um. And then they're going out there

856
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: and scouting and putting the time in to see where's

857
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 1: the sign and so forth. Now, when it comes to

858
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 1: public lands, it's always a little bit of a crapshoot

859
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: because when everybody else goes out there, they're gonna move.

860
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 1: The deer patterns are going to move because of the

861
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: people moving in the woods. That's why early archery is

862
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 1: so fun to me anyways, and I think to a

863
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 1: lot of people because it's so miserable that no one's

864
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 1: out there. That's right in some regards. Yeah, because that

865
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: first gunshot hasn't gone off. So when muzzle loader opens tomorrow,

866
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: we're going to see a lot more hunters in the woods.

867
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 1: They're gonna hear the shots. That deer are going to

868
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 1: go a lot more nocturnal, and they're not going to

869
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 1: act as natural as they have been. So I'm going

870
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: out tonight and hoping I can get my And do

871
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,399
Speaker 1: you feel that, um, do you feel from what you've

872
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 1: seen that that people who are willing to walk and

873
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 1: wade out too hard to access areas of that that

874
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 1: that's good? That works for people. Yeah, it works for people.

875
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: But I've also heard the same exact people be very

876
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:56,359
Speaker 1: close to a parking lot and get to your deer

877
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 1: as well. I think it comes down to experience. You

878
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:02,320
Speaker 1: can't nothing and replaced as getting out there and doing

879
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 1: it yourself and learning those hard lessons and seeing it.

880
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 1: Nothing can replace that, and that's what I've seen amongst

881
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: the hunters that I respect and know around here, are

882
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 1: just a lot tougher because you can't even even when

883
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 1: they're not disturbed by the ares, alter season or a

884
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 1: firearm seating, you can't pattern them like a white tail.

885
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 1: They just they're a little bit more random, you know,

886
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 1: white tails, and you can pretty much guarantee they're gonna

887
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 1: be on that bean field every night or whatever, whereas

888
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 1: sick as are a little harder to pattern. You just

889
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 1: you know, you gotta put yourself in that high percentage area.

890
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 1: But you got to do it a whole bunch. That's

891
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,399
Speaker 1: playoff hunt with Steve for the last couple of days.

892
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 1: Is I came down like trying to like, you know,

893
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 1: I was asking a lot of questions about like very

894
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 1: specific landscape, like like oh, trail intersections or and just

895
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 1: kind of explain your idea about them, like like how

896
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 1: you go about stand selection. Yeah, it's it's like Brian said,

897
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: I look, I've been disappointed many times sitting over a

898
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 1: trail it looks like a cow path and you think, oh,

899
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: they've got to come here regularly. It's just a matter

900
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 1: of time. And it probably is just a matter of time.

901
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: But a lot of that activity is at night. And

902
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 1: so I've found that sitting on trails per se is

903
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 1: not a very productive uh technique for shooting deer. But

904
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 1: and if you look from an aerial photograph, you'll see

905
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 1: there's just a network of trails through the marsh and

906
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,320
Speaker 1: into the woods. You can see you can see from Google. Yeah,

907
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 1: and so it's like a crap shoot whether they're gonna

908
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 1: take this trail or that trail. So what I try

909
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 1: to do is, like Brian just said, find high percentage

910
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 1: areas where deer activity gets funneled down and hopefully that

911
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 1: means one is going to come within range. You know,

912
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: with me shooting traditional archery equipment, it's like twenty yards.

913
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 1: So I look for thicker and tighter and heavier cover

914
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: than probably most people that would be able to shoot

915
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 1: a little firs because you don't care about the forty yard.

916
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I love to see the deer. It's fun

917
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 1: to watch him and stuff, but it's way out of

918
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: my range to it might as well be four hundred

919
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 1: if it's forty. Um. But you know, looking for those

920
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,959
Speaker 1: patches where maybe the frag mighties pokes a little further

921
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 1: in towards the woods, or it's it next down into

922
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: a narrower strip. Um, and they'll follow the edge of

923
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,919
Speaker 1: of those things. Um. They love that switch grass, kind

924
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 1: of marshy, wet stuff. They like to have their feet wet.

925
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:31,320
Speaker 1: You know, they go on the uplands, but they spend

926
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 1: most of their time with their feet wet, waiting around. Yeah.

927
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:38,879
Speaker 1: I heard that the first ones I saw. I heard

928
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: him before I saw him, and it just sounds like

929
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 1: stuff running through the water. Yeah, that's normal out there.

930
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 1: That's a lot of people was first experience. Can you

931
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 1: Steve explained the frag mighty stuff. Oh, frag mighty is

932
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: is a non native ornamental plant that was introduced I

933
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 1: don't even know when, probably early nine dreds, if not

934
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,240
Speaker 1: soon her uh and it's you know, escape become feral.

935
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,879
Speaker 1: It establishes very dense monotypic stands that crowds out other

936
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:10,879
Speaker 1: native plants. Is it is it a grass or yes?

937
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:15,800
Speaker 1: Read and but mine got like twelve feet high. Twelve

938
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: feet high. It's actually quite beautiful. But does it like

939
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,840
Speaker 1: a dozen or more stalks per square foot? I'd have

940
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 1: to say, oh, yeah, it's almost impenetrable. Certainly you can't

941
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 1: get through it without a whole lot of effort. But

942
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:29,839
Speaker 1: they just like run around. They're like little muskrats. Man.

943
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the deer do. That's great cover for him.

944
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 1: They That's probably why someone lived to be twenty years old. Yes,

945
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 1: I was laughing. You have like a non native species

946
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:43,919
Speaker 1: utilizing a non native vegetation to great effect. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah.

947
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 1: And on the refuge, we we try and control fragmighties

948
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 1: in certain areas, which is always interesting because some of

949
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: the hunters would rather us not. They like it. They're yeah, yeah,

950
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:56,319
Speaker 1: but we can't control it all. That's how would you like?

951
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 1: What do you try? What do you try to do

952
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 1: to get rid of it? We use Rodeo Glyphus eight

953
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 1: and we spray that and we have a machine called

954
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 1: a Marshmaster, which is a pretty cool thing that just

955
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: goes out and we spray it. Uh. When we had

956
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 1: a slug of funding from an outside source, we were

957
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 1: able to do some aerial spraying of it a number

958
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 1: of years ago, but we can't keep that up. So

959
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 1: we control about five acres of frag mighties, which there's

960
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 1: a lot more out there. So there's plenty for the

961
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 1: for sica and for hunting, but you've got a spot

962
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:27,759
Speaker 1: of five acres where you try to keep it native vegetation. Yeah,

963
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 1: we have areas that equate to five acres, like our

964
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,359
Speaker 1: impoundments that we create for waterfowl. We want to keep

965
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 1: the frag mighties out of there so that the water

966
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 1: fowl can utilize it over the winter and then whenever

967
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: the marsh. We have this marsh migration that's going on.

968
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: If you go out on the refuge or anywhere around here,

969
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 1: you'll see dying trees kind of transitioning to living trees.

970
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 1: And that's where the sea level is rising and the

971
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 1: marsh is literally migrating up slope. We're so flat here

972
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 1: the marsh can do that, and if it doesn't run

973
00:51:57,160 --> 00:52:00,160
Speaker 1: into development, it's going to migrate. Like the highest place

974
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 1: in this county is eleven ft or something like that

975
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:06,359
Speaker 1: something probably it sounds about right. And Steve was saying

976
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: that just in the time you spent hunting here, you've

977
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 1: watched that oh yeah, tree line. Yeah, dramatic changes in

978
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:15,720
Speaker 1: the tree lines. And you know some of the places

979
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 1: that you saw today when I first started hunting them

980
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:22,360
Speaker 1: twelve fifteen years ago, those were had big trees you

981
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 1: could put tree stands in. And you know, more than

982
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:26,800
Speaker 1: half of those trees have died and the ones that

983
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,839
Speaker 1: are left are just kind of stunted and whatnot. So

984
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 1: another ten years from now that I'll be dead lying

985
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 1: on the ground. And the salt water intrusion and yeah,

986
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: Black Waters lost five thousand acres of marsh to open

987
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 1: water since five thousand, really yeah, and we're still losing

988
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 1: it today. And everybody who goes out, the muskrat trappers,

989
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 1: the hunters, everybody who goes out there, they can see

990
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:57,399
Speaker 1: the changes right before your eyes. Five thousand acres from

991
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 1: marsh to open water. Yeah, so that's what we have

992
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 1: to deal with, and we're trying to help we we

993
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 1: want to keep that marsh. You want to keep that

994
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,760
Speaker 1: high marsh that used to be there in marsh in general,

995
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 1: and so as the frag mighties comes in and moves

996
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:12,719
Speaker 1: into a lot of these areas where it would have

997
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:15,440
Speaker 1: been different species before. So there's certain areas that we

998
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 1: target for the Fragmighties control, and the other places we

999
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:21,919
Speaker 1: just we let it go. Can you explain high marsh? Yeah, well,

1000
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: high marsh. Well, back in the nineties when the refuge

1001
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 1: was established, I saw pictures over this weekend of someone

1002
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:30,880
Speaker 1: who did a history of the refuge where you it

1003
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 1: used to be the marsh was high enough above the

1004
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 1: water level you'd have different species of of the cord grass,

1005
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 1: the salt marsh, hay, etcetera. And the cattle could actually

1006
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 1: graze it. Well, you would never imagine doing that now

1007
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:45,439
Speaker 1: because with as the marsh has actually the sea level

1008
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 1: has risen, water levels have risen. Therefore there's a different

1009
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 1: it's a low marsh instead, and as more water gets

1010
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 1: higher and higher, it becomes more broken up. If you

1011
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:57,840
Speaker 1: look around you'll see marsh. That's just all grass. But

1012
00:53:57,880 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 1: if you look in the middle, you'll start to see

1013
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 1: like poles of water, open wire. That's the marsh just

1014
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 1: just uh, degrading, falling apart. And that's not you know,

1015
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 1: what we want to see, but that's indeed what's happening.

1016
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 1: So we have to deal with it. Things change. What

1017
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 1: species come out as the winner on that? Uh well, fish, yeah,

1018
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 1: we've got more fish now, yeah, snakeheads uh yeah, yeah yeah,

1019
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:26,919
Speaker 1: so we're losing. But you could you could argue that

1020
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 1: that Sica and freg Mighty's are winners in this because

1021
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 1: they're they're might as this marsh is migrating up into

1022
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:36,720
Speaker 1: the woods, the dying woods. It's a different species before

1023
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 1: freg Mighty's and sicket was different species of of the

1024
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:43,799
Speaker 1: cord grasses and so forth, three square things like that.

1025
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 1: So here here's like a probably harder question for you

1026
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: about like managing a refuge and then and then having

1027
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,400
Speaker 1: a species like sick of deer that have a tremendous

1028
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 1: like hunter interest, Like I would think if you look

1029
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:02,439
Speaker 1: at the ma and date for the refuge system would

1030
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 1: not be to provide a habitat to a non native

1031
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 1: that's correct. So do people float the idea of trying

1032
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 1: to do an eradication or is there I mean, is

1033
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 1: there is there just no negative to them? Uh? Certainly

1034
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 1: we have folks um that question. Oh wait, especially with

1035
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 1: their deer hunting program. You're managing for sica. That's a

1036
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 1: non native invasive species that some would argue compete with

1037
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:31,320
Speaker 1: white tail, whether or not that's true or not. And

1038
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 1: we argue that well, you know, they felt like, like

1039
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 1: Brian explained, it's we are managing a resource for hunters

1040
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 1: that we don't think is having a detrimental effect to

1041
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 1: the refuge in and of itself. However, we are trying

1042
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 1: to focus our efforts of harvest on certain areas where

1043
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:53,359
Speaker 1: they are causing problems. For instance, we plant crops um

1044
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 1: for waterfowl so that when they get here, when the

1045
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:59,279
Speaker 1: geek which have started arriving, the migrants, that's there that's

1046
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 1: supposed to be there for the waterfowl over the winter

1047
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:04,359
Speaker 1: and the sick in particularly, well, all the deer are

1048
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 1: really hitting those crops hard. So we try and open

1049
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 1: up wildlife drive and some of those areas that are

1050
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 1: closed to hunting specifically so that hunters can go in

1051
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 1: and hopefully hit those deer harder so that we can

1052
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: have that resource there for waterfowl. So it's a balancing act. Um.

1053
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 1: So with the with the can you break down the

1054
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 1: difference between the refuge and the what's the other thing

1055
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 1: that the stay wildlife management areas? Yeah? But what river

1056
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:38,359
Speaker 1: is it? Not the Savage but fishing Bay Fishing Bay

1057
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,279
Speaker 1: wildlife management area, So like break down from me what

1058
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:43,880
Speaker 1: those two things are. Sure, I'll talk about the National

1059
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 1: Wildlife Refuges are We're federally owned by the US Fish

1060
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 1: and Wildlife Service, and so that was the first refuge,

1061
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 1: like I mentioned, was Pelican Island back in three. And

1062
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 1: we're the only lands federally loan owned lands set aside

1063
00:56:56,200 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 1: specifically for wildlife and wildlife dependent recreation for people. So

1064
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 1: like the hunting and fishing that we talked about, we've

1065
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 1: got five and sixty six around the country, and Blackwater

1066
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 1: is is one of those. We were established back in

1067
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:13,280
Speaker 1: ninety three, primarily for waterfowl, but also for other species

1068
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 1: of wildlife as well. And uh yeah, so we follow

1069
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 1: federal mandates of the Fishing Wildlife Service UM, which includes

1070
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 1: allowing visitors and those types of activities that are compatible

1071
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 1: for wildlife conservation and and the Blackwater Refuge actually shares

1072
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 1: a border with Fishing Bayishing Bay correct in Fishing Bay State,

1073
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 1: that's a state wildlife management area. Most of those were

1074
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 1: purchased with Pittman Robertson funds. A lot of stemmy nuts

1075
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 1: break wildife management areas are pretty common across the country.

1076
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 1: So UM Fishing Bay, I think that's our largest. Our

1077
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:52,440
Speaker 1: largest one is fifty however plus thousand acres or whatever

1078
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 1: it is UM and they form one contiguous piece of marsh. Though, Yeah,

1079
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 1: that's more USA. And how many acres total of It's like,

1080
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: how many acres total of public land are there in

1081
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 1: this area? A good bit. I don't know the percentage. Wise,

1082
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 1: we're we're a little over twenty nine thousand acres, so

1083
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 1: that includes Martin the Island and some of our other

1084
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:19,120
Speaker 1: smaller refuges, but certainly most of it's a black water

1085
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 1: and uh, Fishing Bays about twenty five Taylor's Island. There's

1086
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 1: w m A at Taylor's Island. So I mean there's

1087
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 1: there's a lot of public land in the area. I mean,

1088
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 1: you know, fifty thousand plus acres easily UM not all contiguous,

1089
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean there's softy acres of of of

1090
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 1: sika deer habitat. Yeah, so it's like water. So it's

1091
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 1: not a lot of it, good percentage of it right

1092
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 1: here it yea and how and there's how many deer

1093
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 1: ten to fifteen thousand? Do you guys feel that? Uh?

1094
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 1: Do you guys feel that that? It's the thing that

1095
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:02,880
Speaker 1: people don't really know about. I think the sick of

1096
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:05,760
Speaker 1: they know about they seem to. But I'll tell you

1097
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 1: what I mean. I mean nationally, I want my whole life,

1098
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:11,040
Speaker 1: but I have to come down here. One time, a

1099
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 1: friend of mine was at some fundraiser auction for Ducks Unlimited,

1100
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 1: and somehow or another wound up with a snow goose

1101
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 1: hunt invited me to come along at for like a

1102
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 1: day and emerdis guy talking about like these like marsh dear, Yeah,

1103
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 1: sick of deer, marsh dear. And it was kind of

1104
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 1: in one year and out the other. But I was remember,

1105
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 1: that was like the first time I've ever had any idea. Yeah,

1106
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 1: We've been playing in this trip for two years and

1107
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:38,360
Speaker 1: I've yet to tell somebody, Yeah, We're going to Maryland

1108
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 1: to hunt seek of deer and have someone go, oh yeah, yeah,

1109
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:46,120
Speaker 1: I think Remy Warren was the only one. He's got

1110
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:48,200
Speaker 1: his he's got his finger to the polls man. And

1111
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 1: I do know that all the locals want to keep

1112
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 1: it kind of their own little secret. I can imagine,

1113
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 1: yeahs out of the bag, you know, their perceptionists that

1114
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:01,480
Speaker 1: were overrun with non residents and come years looking to

1115
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 1: hunt secret deer. And but the numbers don't bear that out. No,

1116
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 1: not really they don't. I mean, it's definitely they are

1117
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:11,960
Speaker 1: well known in the mid Atlantic, so you know, you

1118
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 1: see a lot of Delaware hunters, you see a lot

1119
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania hunters, you see fair number of New Jersey hunters,

1120
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 1: Virginia hunters. Yeah see, you know, so it's more it's

1121
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 1: a local mid Atlantic they're well known, um, among the

1122
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 1: deer hunting community. Um. But once you get outside of

1123
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 1: that range, and there's been quite a few celebrities that

1124
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 1: have been here hunting them and have done shows on them. Um,

1125
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:36,200
Speaker 1: I've done you know, I don't know, I can't even

1126
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:38,920
Speaker 1: count four or five, six, half a dozen different you know,

1127
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:41,240
Speaker 1: over the year's different interviews with different hunters that that

1128
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 1: have come. So it has attracted national you know, at

1129
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:47,959
Speaker 1: that at that level, but but it's definitely more still

1130
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 1: a more local type phenomena. So one of the things

1131
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:53,080
Speaker 1: I could imagine limits it a little bit is they

1132
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:56,840
Speaker 1: have dinky little antlers. So it's like it's like you

1133
01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 1: gotta have it. But I'm not hacking that because don't

1134
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:00,360
Speaker 1: really care. I mean it's like you have like a

1135
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:05,959
Speaker 1: con of sewer's eye to recognize. Yeah, they're not They're

1136
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:08,800
Speaker 1: not a elk, you know. I mean, if it happened

1137
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:13,120
Speaker 1: to have some freakish giant antlers, it's just a fact

1138
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 1: that more people to say. But you're right, so have

1139
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 1: you tried one? Have you eaten one? Yet? They are

1140
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 1: so good, they are much tastier. I heard people almost

1141
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:26,200
Speaker 1: universally like them better than I would say, that's true.

1142
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:28,840
Speaker 1: Steve had a word to describe whitetail met Could you

1143
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:31,760
Speaker 1: call it kind of minerally? Yeah, yeah, I've heard that

1144
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:36,120
Speaker 1: term before. It's it's a slight metallic or livery taste.

1145
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 1: Is what I prefer these. I prefer the secret dear Yeah, yeah,

1146
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 1: I mean I love white tail too, but there's something

1147
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:45,680
Speaker 1: that secret backstrap is just I've never talked to anybody

1148
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 1: that they would prefer whitea however, So it's just like

1149
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:52,919
Speaker 1: widely as you know, it's pretty much universal. Yeah, it's good,

1150
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:55,840
Speaker 1: not just you know, the flavor and then the texture

1151
01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 1: to like I said, are most of the time they're

1152
01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:00,800
Speaker 1: more tender than white tail. It's killing me that I

1153
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 1: haven't got one. So but yeah, I don't. I want

1154
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:05,520
Speaker 1: to get back to the antler because I want to

1155
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 1: be hacking on them. But I mean, you've got some

1156
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 1: ones that are that are were described to me, Steve.

1157
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 1: You've killed something that were described to me by not

1158
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 1: just you, by beings like trophy class. Yeah, the three

1159
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 1: I showed you just about anybody would would get mounted

1160
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:26,000
Speaker 1: in there, you know, a trophy. Yeah. And it's like

1161
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:28,960
Speaker 1: they're like, I'm not dogging on him. I'm just saying

1162
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 1: it's like a little it's like it's like three three

1163
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 1: times per antler. And then the main beam is sixteen

1164
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 1: inches long maybe for a huge one. Sixteen sixty is

1165
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:42,120
Speaker 1: a really big one. And you're saying that like more

1166
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:45,120
Speaker 1: like an eight point is like virtually unheard of, very rare.

1167
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 1: A true eight point is extremely rare. But it's an

1168
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 1: elkish kind of little antler yeah, yeah, they're really cool,

1169
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:55,320
Speaker 1: nice eye guards. And and you do get some different

1170
01:02:55,360 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 1: configurations sometimes, whether it's generated by injuries or either to

1171
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:04,000
Speaker 1: the antler when it's growing or to the dear their

1172
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:08,959
Speaker 1: body when they're growing antlers, but that you know, three

1173
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:14,560
Speaker 1: by three configuration is your typical mature stag. And you'll

1174
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 1: get a lot of I call them, uh glorified spikes,

1175
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 1: these little six pointers that are just little nubbins for

1176
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:27,600
Speaker 1: eye guards, and and the top points, the splits, we

1177
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:31,040
Speaker 1: call them. I saw one of those today. Yeah, yeah,

1178
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 1: year lanes are always spikes, and I've never seen a

1179
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 1: branched antler yearling. And then at two and a half,

1180
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:41,080
Speaker 1: they they will be what you just described, one of

1181
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 1: those little you know, week you might be able to

1182
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:46,600
Speaker 1: call them the six point, but maybe a four point

1183
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:48,920
Speaker 1: or whatever. And then it takes two and a half

1184
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:51,320
Speaker 1: or it takes three and a half and up to

1185
01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:57,720
Speaker 1: start getting into maturity and you know, true six points. Yeah,

1186
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:00,200
Speaker 1: and then these guys don't have twin fallns either, right, No,

1187
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 1: just single calf yeah that I've ever seen, um, and

1188
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:09,560
Speaker 1: that's in the literature all which suggested only they only

1189
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:11,680
Speaker 1: ever have a single calf. I've had different reports over

1190
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:13,840
Speaker 1: the years. People said, no, she had twins or whatever,

1191
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:18,480
Speaker 1: but um, I've only ever seen yeah, single single calf. No, Marshy,

1192
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:21,520
Speaker 1: I overheard you earlier before we got started. You were saying,

1193
01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:24,520
Speaker 1: you've like you haven't got one with your bull. You've

1194
01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 1: passed up shots. I've passed up several spikes. Why that's

1195
01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 1: just me. I just I just want to let the

1196
01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:34,400
Speaker 1: let the little guys grow, and I wanted to get well.

1197
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 1: Let me all right, let me talk about the other week.

1198
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:38,560
Speaker 1: So it was it last week or the week before.

1199
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:40,200
Speaker 1: It was one of those really hot days and I

1200
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:43,200
Speaker 1: had a spike under and I had a shot, but

1201
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:45,920
Speaker 1: it was also you know, it was really hot with

1202
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 1: the rut, so I kept thinking another a mature stag

1203
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 1: was gonna possibly come in, or a Hind. I'd rather

1204
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:54,680
Speaker 1: take a Hind or a mature stag is gonna let

1205
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:56,760
Speaker 1: the little guy go. So that was just me at

1206
01:04:56,760 --> 01:04:59,320
Speaker 1: that time. Now, if it had been late January, I

1207
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:02,200
Speaker 1: think I probably had just taken him. But because it

1208
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 1: was early in the season and the rut was on,

1209
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:06,600
Speaker 1: that's what I chose to do. How did it come

1210
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:08,720
Speaker 1: to pass that was under your tree? Like? What hell?

1211
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:12,200
Speaker 1: I was hunting of friends that was actually under I

1212
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:15,240
Speaker 1: was actually hunting bait that time. I was. I've been

1213
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:17,800
Speaker 1: I've hunted bait and I've not hunted bait, and my

1214
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:22,080
Speaker 1: preference is to not hunt bait my properties that I least,

1215
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 1: I'm not baiting this year. I did last year to

1216
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:27,160
Speaker 1: try it out. It's a lot of I'm just not

1217
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:30,760
Speaker 1: going to do it. I don't just not my preference. However,

1218
01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:34,320
Speaker 1: trying to get my first sick and my first bow kill, um, well,

1219
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:36,360
Speaker 1: if a friend's gonna ask me, I'm also not going

1220
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:39,600
Speaker 1: to pass it up. Have you have you been out

1221
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:43,240
Speaker 1: hunting on the refuge too? Yes? I have, Yes, Yes,

1222
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:45,400
Speaker 1: you spread it out and tomorrow is gonna be I've

1223
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:48,320
Speaker 1: never hunted muzzleloader before. Tomorrow is my first day muzzleloader

1224
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:51,640
Speaker 1: hunting ever. And I'm going on the refuge. Yeah, so

1225
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:53,720
Speaker 1: you're gonna do the opening day of Muslim I am,

1226
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:55,520
Speaker 1: And it's it's the quote to day. I'm in the

1227
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 1: unit that everybody complains about has too many people on

1228
01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:00,760
Speaker 1: it because as a staff person, UM, just treat me

1229
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:03,000
Speaker 1: like someone else, in fact, treat me worse, you know.

1230
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:07,160
Speaker 1: So I'm going out there and I'm gonna So you're

1231
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:09,360
Speaker 1: gonna go out with your bow tonight. I'm going out

1232
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:11,640
Speaker 1: with my bow tonight onto my my private least, which

1233
01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:13,960
Speaker 1: is not bated, and there's white tail and sick of

1234
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:18,080
Speaker 1: there um. However, there's there's some nice white tails there too,

1235
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:20,479
Speaker 1: So I'm going there tonight. I hope, you know, see

1236
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 1: if I can finally make that happen. And then tomorrow

1237
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:26,480
Speaker 1: I'm going muscle later. And do you already have do

1238
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:28,520
Speaker 1: you already have your stand? Like like you already have

1239
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:30,959
Speaker 1: your stand set up on the refuge. No, I'm using

1240
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 1: my climbing stand. So I went and scouted. I picked

1241
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:36,240
Speaker 1: a spot. And since I'm hunting by myself tomorrow and

1242
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:40,280
Speaker 1: I'm kind of I'm not very big, you know, height

1243
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:42,800
Speaker 1: wise or anything, I've got to be able to take

1244
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:45,120
Speaker 1: care of that deer myself. So I didn't go out

1245
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:46,640
Speaker 1: until the marsh. And like if I had if I

1246
01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:48,840
Speaker 1: was hunting with buddies, I didn't go to where I

1247
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:52,160
Speaker 1: would normally go. I had to be smart about it.

1248
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:54,520
Speaker 1: Where can I go and take care of a deer myself?

1249
01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:57,360
Speaker 1: If I get it well, I think tomorrow you're definitely

1250
01:06:57,400 --> 01:07:00,280
Speaker 1: gonna have to shoot a spike because if you shoot

1251
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:03,440
Speaker 1: some giant like that as the refuge manager, I know,

1252
01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:09,560
Speaker 1: I know, I know. You have to take a vacation day.

1253
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:12,840
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you bet. You can't ect like you're out

1254
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:17,760
Speaker 1: there doing something else with a muzzleoader. No, no, no,

1255
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:20,200
Speaker 1: I will be hunting them. So you gotta put in

1256
01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:22,800
Speaker 1: for you gotta put in for vacation, and I gotta

1257
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 1: put in for the quota and get selected to which

1258
01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, I'm in the unit that's still open,

1259
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:35,480
Speaker 1: so just to avoid any feel of yeah, of privileged specially,

1260
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:37,919
Speaker 1: that's right, that's right. And I was hunting a unit

1261
01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:40,080
Speaker 1: with my with my bow the very first day, and

1262
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:43,120
Speaker 1: I'll be hunting back there again too. So you've already

1263
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:45,520
Speaker 1: you've already hunted the refuge with your bowl this year. Yes,

1264
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 1: the opening around a lot, yes, and you keep hunt

1265
01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:53,560
Speaker 1: until January. Yes, I did last year. Yeah, and that

1266
01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:57,080
Speaker 1: was down at my lease that I was just white

1267
01:07:57,080 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 1: tail down there, and then a friend would take me

1268
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:01,040
Speaker 1: once in a while, first sicker around here, and so

1269
01:08:01,160 --> 01:08:04,040
Speaker 1: I would do that if you could tolerate the cold.

1270
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:07,240
Speaker 1: January is great tom to hunt. There's not many people

1271
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:10,120
Speaker 1: out they Yeah, I enjoyed it. I had to. I

1272
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:12,320
Speaker 1: ended up keep buying more and more stuff because I

1273
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:16,840
Speaker 1: kept getting colder and cold. So the little inserts, the flips,

1274
01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:19,599
Speaker 1: you got to turn them on through your boots. Yeah. Yeah,

1275
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:22,880
Speaker 1: I got those fewer mosquitoes. You'll still have mosquitoes in January,

1276
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:26,479
Speaker 1: you will, you will. So I never heard of the

1277
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:29,439
Speaker 1: thermo cell till I came here and started hunting, and

1278
01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:31,720
Speaker 1: that's like the you have to have that here, you

1279
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 1: have to have that. So I'm trying my time, and

1280
01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:37,720
Speaker 1: I think it's gonna happen for you. Yeah, so did

1281
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:40,360
Speaker 1: you not? So? So? Did you not start hunting until

1282
01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:44,320
Speaker 1: until as a grown up? Yeah, untill about twenty three

1283
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:46,599
Speaker 1: four or something like that. That was the first time

1284
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:51,160
Speaker 1: I actually hunted. Something got you. Ye, started off with

1285
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:55,439
Speaker 1: bird hunting and then moved to deer white tails because

1286
01:08:55,439 --> 01:08:58,240
Speaker 1: I'm from western Pennsylvania, so that's all white tails. Yeah.

1287
01:08:58,280 --> 01:09:02,160
Speaker 1: And now you're working in on the local secret. Yeah. Yeah.

1288
01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:04,360
Speaker 1: And I never thought I'd be able to bow hunt.

1289
01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:06,280
Speaker 1: I just didn't think I could pull enough weight back

1290
01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:09,640
Speaker 1: and just you know, it's a lot of pressure, but

1291
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:11,920
Speaker 1: I really love it. You've been at it two years now.

1292
01:09:12,040 --> 01:09:15,439
Speaker 1: This is my second season bow hunting you not. No,

1293
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:18,200
Speaker 1: it's not a problem. You haven't got one yet. No, No,

1294
01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:19,920
Speaker 1: I'm all right. I don't hope I should start feeling

1295
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:21,840
Speaker 1: sorry for you. But it sounds like you're right on track. No,

1296
01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:25,920
Speaker 1: I've gun hunted up. Yes, you'll kill something this year. Yeah,

1297
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:28,479
Speaker 1: and last year, Like I said, I did pass up. Well,

1298
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:31,640
Speaker 1: at the least down in Somerset County. We those of

1299
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:34,200
Speaker 1: us in it, we have this. We don't shoot anything

1300
01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:36,360
Speaker 1: less than an eight point. So when I had some

1301
01:09:36,360 --> 01:09:38,559
Speaker 1: smaller box, kind of under my stand, I didn't take

1302
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:43,880
Speaker 1: it because that was kind of the informal rules for secrets. No,

1303
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:47,040
Speaker 1: for white tails, I'm sorry for white tails. You're not

1304
01:09:47,120 --> 01:09:51,599
Speaker 1: gonna waiting a long time. White tails only. So that's

1305
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 1: that's that's us. So myself, I'll take a hind or

1306
01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:56,639
Speaker 1: a mature any sort of mature stag. But you asked

1307
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:58,600
Speaker 1: me again a little bit later, and yeah, maybe I

1308
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:03,680
Speaker 1: will take a spike. I got one last question. Last

1309
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:07,000
Speaker 1: night when you were guys were talking another thing I overheard.

1310
01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:09,800
Speaker 1: Were you saying that, like I'm holding this, I'm holding

1311
01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:14,120
Speaker 1: a stag here that Steve killed that's missing the time?

1312
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:17,679
Speaker 1: Are you saying that someone found that time yeah. So

1313
01:10:17,960 --> 01:10:21,400
Speaker 1: in another deer, yep, a fellow hunter that hunted the

1314
01:10:21,439 --> 01:10:24,280
Speaker 1: same property that I do. I shot a six point

1315
01:10:24,360 --> 01:10:27,120
Speaker 1: that was about the same caliber as that that seven

1316
01:10:27,160 --> 01:10:31,360
Speaker 1: point there and uh to you know, very mature stags,

1317
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:35,240
Speaker 1: and he got his mounted and he took his taxidermisters

1318
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:42,280
Speaker 1: or keeping it out. The uh taxidermists found a length

1319
01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:44,599
Speaker 1: of bone that matched up perfectly with what was missing

1320
01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:47,040
Speaker 1: off the tip of that one antler. There. Where is it? Now?

1321
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:51,320
Speaker 1: He's got it? Yeah, he didn't give it. No, No,

1322
01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:54,920
Speaker 1: it's it's just kind of his trophy. So I didn't

1323
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 1: want to take. Yeah, it was pretty Yeah, he's got

1324
01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:02,800
Speaker 1: I don't know about that. What do you think about that?

1325
01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:07,439
Speaker 1: They are extremely aggressive. Well, he's a fan of your program.

1326
01:11:07,479 --> 01:11:10,360
Speaker 1: So when he hears that, I don't want to. I

1327
01:11:10,360 --> 01:11:15,040
Speaker 1: don't want brother. Obviously he's got impeccable taste. Well that

1328
01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:19,519
Speaker 1: just uh all right, Brian. You gotten to witness them fighting. Yeah,

1329
01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:24,240
Speaker 1: so it's brutal. Yeah, they're they're they're impressive and like

1330
01:11:24,280 --> 01:11:27,400
Speaker 1: they you can't see the skull that we're holding, but

1331
01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:30,800
Speaker 1: this would all be fat. So they have over an

1332
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:33,919
Speaker 1: inch of fat on that skull to help protect against

1333
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:37,240
Speaker 1: you know there's points and all, but they are just brutal.

1334
01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:40,479
Speaker 1: But you know they're there's no question there's a lot

1335
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:44,800
Speaker 1: that that die every year just from injuries. Yeah, yeah,

1336
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:46,800
Speaker 1: do you find that. Do you find sheds? You probably

1337
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:49,000
Speaker 1: can't find the sheds because of the habitat type, right

1338
01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:50,560
Speaker 1: or do you know didn't find them every once in

1339
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:53,679
Speaker 1: a while. Yeah, you can find him, you can find

1340
01:11:53,880 --> 01:11:55,519
Speaker 1: not in the march, you're not gonna find him. This

1341
01:11:55,520 --> 01:11:58,080
Speaker 1: seems like if they drop out that that, yeah, they're

1342
01:11:58,080 --> 01:12:01,920
Speaker 1: going stuff. You're not gonna Yeah. I did find one

1343
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:03,960
Speaker 1: and frag once. So I was tracking a deer that

1344
01:12:04,000 --> 01:12:06,360
Speaker 1: i'd hit and really blood trailing him. Yeah, and I

1345
01:12:06,439 --> 01:12:10,639
Speaker 1: looked down and here's this beautiful three point antlers sitting there.

1346
01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:13,719
Speaker 1: They are a little welk, so they do have beauty

1347
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:19,360
Speaker 1: or appreciate so being a being a little elk, they

1348
01:12:19,360 --> 01:12:25,880
Speaker 1: are a little stigil tusks, So that's cool. Yeah, Brian,

1349
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:30,200
Speaker 1: is it roar or bugle sound they make? I've always

1350
01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:36,000
Speaker 1: just heard bugle ms will talk about the roar, Yeah,

1351
01:12:36,160 --> 01:12:38,360
Speaker 1: but I think it just kind of spill over from

1352
01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:40,680
Speaker 1: the red deer roar. And they anything that ruts, they

1353
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:43,479
Speaker 1: just called the roar, but here it's bugling. Yeah. I

1354
01:12:43,520 --> 01:12:48,320
Speaker 1: think we just we just equated without Yeah, and it's

1355
01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:50,799
Speaker 1: a weird, like I don't know if I could exactly

1356
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:54,000
Speaker 1: explain it. It's um to me. It's more of like

1357
01:12:54,040 --> 01:12:58,080
Speaker 1: a whistle, multi pitch whistle stay in stages. Yeah, And

1358
01:12:58,080 --> 01:13:01,479
Speaker 1: did you hear from a distance? You only hear the whistle,

1359
01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:04,400
Speaker 1: but if you're closer, which we've gotten to be close

1360
01:13:04,479 --> 01:13:06,720
Speaker 1: up a couple of times, you also hear that there's

1361
01:13:06,760 --> 01:13:09,760
Speaker 1: a little bit of a gird at the beginning, and

1362
01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:12,240
Speaker 1: then just a little bit at the end, and then

1363
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:14,880
Speaker 1: there's another call what'd you call it when you're real

1364
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:19,400
Speaker 1: close the key ways call it a hehaw. That starts

1365
01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:21,639
Speaker 1: out was a real high pitched kind of e sound,

1366
01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:26,000
Speaker 1: and then it drags off into this ah sounds, so

1367
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:34,519
Speaker 1: it's like, really nothing else sounds like. It's kind of crazy. Yeah,

1368
01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:36,519
Speaker 1: And what tripped us up as I think that was

1369
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:41,040
Speaker 1: the first day that we were hunting with you, I think,

1370
01:13:41,080 --> 01:13:42,920
Speaker 1: and we we thought we had heard him. It was

1371
01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:44,640
Speaker 1: the wind was kind of blowing, so it's tough to

1372
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:47,360
Speaker 1: hear anything at all. But both Steve and I get

1373
01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:49,559
Speaker 1: together and we're like, man, we I think we heard

1374
01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:51,760
Speaker 1: a bugle, but it was like it must have been

1375
01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:53,559
Speaker 1: a guy because it was like three in a row,

1376
01:13:54,320 --> 01:13:56,880
Speaker 1: Like who would be doing that? Right? We go to

1377
01:13:56,920 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 1: Steve and he's like, oh, yeah, every time the bugle

1378
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:03,519
Speaker 1: it's you know, and I've heard now twos, threes and

1379
01:14:03,640 --> 01:14:09,000
Speaker 1: even fours. It seems like, um, do you have that recording? Yeah, yeah,

1380
01:14:09,000 --> 01:14:13,719
Speaker 1: this is one I videoed last season on Blackwater and

1381
01:14:13,920 --> 01:14:17,479
Speaker 1: uh called it in with a cow call. Came across

1382
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:20,479
Speaker 1: the marsh about two hundred yards and wandered, well, didn't

1383
01:14:20,479 --> 01:14:23,960
Speaker 1: wandered it. It came pretty directly to me and I

1384
01:14:24,040 --> 01:14:27,919
Speaker 1: got within twenty yards, didn't find this challenger that had

1385
01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:30,599
Speaker 1: had called at him, and uh so he let out

1386
01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:33,760
Speaker 1: with the cat I actually had bugled earlier. And then

1387
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:36,840
Speaker 1: uh he came out of the woods about two hundred

1388
01:14:36,880 --> 01:14:39,320
Speaker 1: fifty yards away and I watched him and he was

1389
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:42,639
Speaker 1: clearly rolled up. He made about four or five wallows

1390
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:44,599
Speaker 1: on the back side of this this marsh. They roll

1391
01:14:44,680 --> 01:14:47,639
Speaker 1: around in the mud and get their antlers all dug

1392
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:51,479
Speaker 1: into the marsh and p on themselves and just in

1393
01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:54,400
Speaker 1: the wallows to break off from the sound real quick.

1394
01:14:54,479 --> 01:15:00,760
Speaker 1: It's uh, it's small. Probably what maybe two square feet. Yeah,

1395
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:03,400
Speaker 1: probably something like that. And they looked to me, every

1396
01:15:03,400 --> 01:15:05,120
Speaker 1: time I've seen one, it's it's not like it was.

1397
01:15:05,680 --> 01:15:08,479
Speaker 1: They continue to use the same one, right. They look

1398
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:11,040
Speaker 1: like they could just like randomly stop anywhere and be like, oh,

1399
01:15:11,120 --> 01:15:15,080
Speaker 1: making a new wall, right, Yeah, they will reuse them also,

1400
01:15:15,240 --> 01:15:17,800
Speaker 1: But um, most of the ones I think you see

1401
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:21,400
Speaker 1: are just one off. That's what it seems like, which

1402
01:15:21,400 --> 01:15:23,479
Speaker 1: is why I don't bother hunting them, you know. I mean,

1403
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:25,400
Speaker 1: it's nice to have a bunch of around because you

1404
01:15:25,400 --> 01:15:27,200
Speaker 1: know there's a stag there. But I don't set up

1405
01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:29,680
Speaker 1: with my tree stand over a wallow because it's just

1406
01:15:30,280 --> 01:15:32,639
Speaker 1: you can wait forever for him to show up. Once

1407
01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:34,479
Speaker 1: in a while you'll find one that looks like it's

1408
01:15:34,520 --> 01:15:37,240
Speaker 1: probably a sort of communal sort of wallow and it'll

1409
01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:40,559
Speaker 1: be ten ft wide and just shoot up and whatnot.

1410
01:15:40,640 --> 01:15:44,679
Speaker 1: But most of them are just sort of frustration being

1411
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:47,760
Speaker 1: taken out, I think. But now, Marka, you're telling me

1412
01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:50,519
Speaker 1: you set your stand up over Oh no, I just

1413
01:15:50,600 --> 01:15:54,640
Speaker 1: look for wallows. Look for sign Yeah, a scrape you

1414
01:15:54,760 --> 01:15:56,840
Speaker 1: called it. We were talking about a wallow when you

1415
01:15:56,840 --> 01:15:59,640
Speaker 1: told me, Well, I said, look for sign like trails,

1416
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:02,479
Speaker 1: and blows and scrapes like for white tail and things

1417
01:16:02,520 --> 01:16:04,680
Speaker 1: like that, but not necessary that you would set up

1418
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:07,240
Speaker 1: on there, just trying to determine where are they moving through.

1419
01:16:07,880 --> 01:16:10,320
Speaker 1: Oh but yeah, but you told me, and I thought

1420
01:16:10,320 --> 01:16:12,120
Speaker 1: it was in an email you said something about a

1421
01:16:12,160 --> 01:16:16,120
Speaker 1: scrape and that was that was that was for what?

1422
01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:19,880
Speaker 1: That was my my hunt last last week. Yeah, I

1423
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:22,800
Speaker 1: didn't know that. I was looking for signs um at

1424
01:16:22,840 --> 01:16:26,320
Speaker 1: my lease which has white tails an sica, and the

1425
01:16:26,360 --> 01:16:29,719
Speaker 1: buck that had come in had a scrape. I didn't

1426
01:16:29,720 --> 01:16:32,960
Speaker 1: realize it, but when I watched him actually work the scrape,

1427
01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:36,760
Speaker 1: then I realized, Yeah, yeah, it happened to be near

1428
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:38,960
Speaker 1: a pond and there was a lot of sign going

1429
01:16:38,960 --> 01:16:41,160
Speaker 1: in and out like it was really it's been really dry,

1430
01:16:41,200 --> 01:16:42,680
Speaker 1: so there was like a lot of dried mud on

1431
01:16:42,720 --> 01:16:46,160
Speaker 1: the vegetation. So I was hoping, yeah, okay, the sick

1432
01:16:46,160 --> 01:16:47,800
Speaker 1: are going to come from the woods to the pond

1433
01:16:47,840 --> 01:16:50,479
Speaker 1: in the evening because it's hot and it's my best chance.

1434
01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:53,519
Speaker 1: I didn't know that there was also a white tail

1435
01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:56,120
Speaker 1: that was making a pretty nice scrape there until I

1436
01:16:56,160 --> 01:17:01,040
Speaker 1: saw excellent stand Yeah, yeah, exactly. All right, let's hear

1437
01:17:01,080 --> 01:17:27,760
Speaker 1: the queue it up m m m m. So that

1438
01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:31,960
Speaker 1: real guttural um sort of start and finish. A lot

1439
01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:33,960
Speaker 1: of people don't hear that if it's not real close

1440
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:36,000
Speaker 1: to you just say the high pitch whistle part. But

1441
01:17:36,560 --> 01:17:39,559
Speaker 1: most of the commercially available calls that are out there

1442
01:17:40,040 --> 01:17:42,639
Speaker 1: don't really capture that. And you know, I don't think

1443
01:17:42,640 --> 01:17:47,720
Speaker 1: that it's necessary for the deer to respond to it, um,

1444
01:17:47,760 --> 01:17:50,120
Speaker 1: but for my own sort of personal confidence in the

1445
01:17:50,200 --> 01:17:53,519
Speaker 1: call I'm blowing, I just like to to be as

1446
01:17:53,560 --> 01:17:56,479
Speaker 1: authentic as possible, you know. And uh so the one

1447
01:17:56,479 --> 01:17:58,800
Speaker 1: call I've found that actually captures that part is the

1448
01:17:58,840 --> 01:18:02,920
Speaker 1: Nordic Seka and that it's manufactured in Sweden. And uh,

1449
01:18:03,320 --> 01:18:06,000
Speaker 1: it's a pretty neat call. It's a one trick pony.

1450
01:18:06,600 --> 01:18:10,000
Speaker 1: It really only does the the bugle and you could

1451
01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:12,200
Speaker 1: probably do the he hawk kind of sound with it too,

1452
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:14,880
Speaker 1: if you really practiced at it. But so I always

1453
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:18,160
Speaker 1: carry standard ELK calls to so I can make the

1454
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:22,120
Speaker 1: myriad of sounds. But but uh, it's it's pretty exciting

1455
01:18:22,120 --> 01:18:25,080
Speaker 1: when they respond to it. Yeah, I'm hoping I'm gonna

1456
01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:29,479
Speaker 1: blow mine a hundred times tonight. Ryan. Have you guys

1457
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:33,840
Speaker 1: done it ever? Any research on the vocalizations. No, we

1458
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:37,280
Speaker 1: have not, but if you if you read the literature, um,

1459
01:18:37,600 --> 01:18:40,200
Speaker 1: you know, what I've read is that seeker or the

1460
01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:44,000
Speaker 1: sicker or the most vocal of the servety. So you know,

1461
01:18:44,120 --> 01:18:47,240
Speaker 1: and and if you spend a lot of time out there,

1462
01:18:47,320 --> 01:18:50,320
Speaker 1: there are I mean, there's six seven different vocalizations you

1463
01:18:50,360 --> 01:18:53,160
Speaker 1: can you can pick up, not just not just the stags,

1464
01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:56,040
Speaker 1: but the hinds with the calves and just the other.

1465
01:18:56,800 --> 01:19:00,760
Speaker 1: If you had to describe the hind calve call like

1466
01:19:00,800 --> 01:19:06,280
Speaker 1: a mu, they almost elk like yeah, yeah, very similar, yeah,

1467
01:19:06,439 --> 01:19:08,400
Speaker 1: very similar. So the other one too. I'm not sure

1468
01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:10,920
Speaker 1: if you've probably heard yet, but they do this really

1469
01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:15,439
Speaker 1: low guttural growl and it almost sounds like they're talking

1470
01:19:15,479 --> 01:19:17,640
Speaker 1: to lugie or something, and it's there's no pitch to it.

1471
01:19:17,640 --> 01:19:22,639
Speaker 1: It's just as when you hear that, you know, it's

1472
01:19:22,760 --> 01:19:26,479
Speaker 1: usually from what I've seen, it's challenges to another stat

1473
01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:30,880
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, yeah, you don't hear that unless they're

1474
01:19:30,880 --> 01:19:34,400
Speaker 1: within probably fifty semi five yards, unless it's a real

1475
01:19:34,479 --> 01:19:37,240
Speaker 1: still day and just perfect which is a mile in

1476
01:19:37,320 --> 01:19:46,439
Speaker 1: frag mighties. Yeah, um yeah, you know, that makes them

1477
01:19:46,560 --> 01:19:48,360
Speaker 1: a lot of sense. But the thing about let's being

1478
01:19:48,400 --> 01:19:51,320
Speaker 1: new here and in that march, you're hearing so many

1479
01:19:51,439 --> 01:19:55,840
Speaker 1: other noises, I mean, the the heron's you know squawking.

1480
01:19:57,240 --> 01:20:00,439
Speaker 1: You could easily confuse a weird haron squa walk for

1481
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:05,040
Speaker 1: something that this secret deers making. Yeah, and then what

1482
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:07,720
Speaker 1: who else is out there making to some really odd

1483
01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:10,800
Speaker 1: I mean, we've heard barred owls and young owls, you know,

1484
01:20:11,120 --> 01:20:12,920
Speaker 1: screech out, they go all over the place with their

1485
01:20:14,479 --> 01:20:18,000
Speaker 1: um there's clapper rails. They don't really sound like sicca,

1486
01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:19,599
Speaker 1: but you know, if you're new to it and you've

1487
01:20:19,640 --> 01:20:21,360
Speaker 1: never heard it before. I remember the first year I

1488
01:20:21,400 --> 01:20:23,920
Speaker 1: hunted him, I heard that they made this you know,

1489
01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:26,720
Speaker 1: bugle sound that I had no idea what it sounded like.

1490
01:20:26,840 --> 01:20:29,439
Speaker 1: So everything I heard out there when I was sitting

1491
01:20:29,479 --> 01:20:32,160
Speaker 1: in a tree stand, what is that one? Is that one? Known?

1492
01:20:32,320 --> 01:20:36,000
Speaker 1: Is that one? And flickers will make a very similar

1493
01:20:36,040 --> 01:20:39,600
Speaker 1: sound to their alarm calls and their muse sometimes. I

1494
01:20:39,640 --> 01:20:41,839
Speaker 1: was just gonna say, my first couple of years of alcohntin,

1495
01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:45,000
Speaker 1: I put at least a dozen stocks on the Western

1496
01:20:45,040 --> 01:20:48,160
Speaker 1: Flicker before I before my mind, you know, learned to

1497
01:20:48,240 --> 01:20:53,720
Speaker 1: dial in that. Then I remember the first time of

1498
01:20:53,880 --> 01:20:56,760
Speaker 1: stag bugle close to me and the hair and my

1499
01:20:56,920 --> 01:20:59,280
Speaker 1: next stood up. I was like, Ah, that's what it

1500
01:20:59,360 --> 01:21:03,080
Speaker 1: sounds like. Yeah, if we still have New Trio, you'd

1501
01:21:03,240 --> 01:21:06,880
Speaker 1: listening to yeah, sitting out the trio all the time.

1502
01:21:07,120 --> 01:21:11,000
Speaker 1: So that was another march sound to cover that when

1503
01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:16,400
Speaker 1: we do the New Trio podcast. Um cool? Anything else

1504
01:21:16,439 --> 01:21:22,599
Speaker 1: to add Brian about the vocalization? So cool that. Uh,

1505
01:21:23,520 --> 01:21:26,679
Speaker 1: you know, you gotta give it a fair shot. Don't

1506
01:21:26,680 --> 01:21:29,479
Speaker 1: expect something your first time, or your second, or maybe

1507
01:21:29,479 --> 01:21:31,920
Speaker 1: even your tenth time. But sooner or later they'll respond

1508
01:21:31,960 --> 01:21:36,160
Speaker 1: to it and look every direction. They'll circle behind you,

1509
01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:38,320
Speaker 1: they'll sneak in on you. Sometimes they'll run you over

1510
01:21:38,360 --> 01:21:43,320
Speaker 1: like a bulldozer. It's it can be pretty exciting. Imagine,

1511
01:21:43,439 --> 01:21:47,800
Speaker 1: you know, calling in a seventy pound turkey with antlers. Right. Yeah,

1512
01:21:47,840 --> 01:21:51,280
Speaker 1: we're three haunts in now. I mean we've haunted two mornings,

1513
01:21:51,400 --> 01:21:55,280
Speaker 1: one evening, and twice now. I've heard the footsteps and

1514
01:21:55,600 --> 01:21:59,000
Speaker 1: I believe it to be probably less than sixty yards

1515
01:21:59,040 --> 01:22:01,439
Speaker 1: if I can hear that, and I've yet to see

1516
01:22:01,720 --> 01:22:04,559
Speaker 1: one well either I've seen him in the distance, but

1517
01:22:04,560 --> 01:22:06,960
Speaker 1: I've yet to see the two that make that range.

1518
01:22:07,240 --> 01:22:09,760
Speaker 1: Tea yeah, but I think it's because I'm a bad

1519
01:22:09,800 --> 01:22:13,040
Speaker 1: tree stand hunter, because I haven't like remembered all my

1520
01:22:13,120 --> 01:22:14,880
Speaker 1: old skills about how you had to stand there like

1521
01:22:14,920 --> 01:22:20,479
Speaker 1: a statue. I think I'm out there stretching out all right, cool,

1522
01:22:21,000 --> 01:22:23,479
Speaker 1: all yeh? He got any final uh things you want

1523
01:22:23,479 --> 01:22:26,240
Speaker 1: to add? I like that the wire job you did

1524
01:22:26,280 --> 01:22:32,760
Speaker 1: on this for hand, did you invent that? Probably can't

1525
01:22:32,800 --> 01:22:35,559
Speaker 1: really invent that much when it comes to wires and skulls. Well,

1526
01:22:35,560 --> 01:22:37,479
Speaker 1: there was just something that came up with. I was

1527
01:22:37,520 --> 01:22:41,840
Speaker 1: too cheap to buy anything to do it, and I like,

1528
01:22:42,320 --> 01:22:44,639
Speaker 1: I just like a simple I like, you know, texted

1529
01:22:44,760 --> 01:22:46,800
Speaker 1: Ermys gonna take a picture of this wireing job and

1530
01:22:46,800 --> 01:22:48,439
Speaker 1: we're gonna put it on. We're gonna put it up

1531
01:22:48,439 --> 01:22:52,280
Speaker 1: in the show notes. You're gonna you're gonna This picture

1532
01:22:52,320 --> 01:22:55,479
Speaker 1: is being taken right now. And if you want to

1533
01:22:55,479 --> 01:22:57,559
Speaker 1: see a sweet way to wire up a euro Mount,

1534
01:22:58,640 --> 01:23:02,519
Speaker 1: go what you are It turned out real nice, Go

1535
01:23:02,560 --> 01:23:05,519
Speaker 1: to our show notes. It gives you that flat against

1536
01:23:05,560 --> 01:23:07,720
Speaker 1: the wall hang too, as opposed to a screw which

1537
01:23:07,760 --> 01:23:11,040
Speaker 1: will pop them out. Alright, you have to pick him

1538
01:23:11,120 --> 01:23:13,360
Speaker 1: up and hold him, look at him. Remember the hunt.

1539
01:23:13,479 --> 01:23:15,240
Speaker 1: You can't do that with a big mountain on the wall,

1540
01:23:15,320 --> 01:23:18,920
Speaker 1: you know, some tactile about being able to touch it,

1541
01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:23,320
Speaker 1: and it makes moving easier. Yes, it does. Moving to

1542
01:23:23,439 --> 01:23:26,759
Speaker 1: be like daunting. If you had a text, they everywhere

1543
01:23:27,400 --> 01:23:32,639
Speaker 1: like where am I gonna put my full draft draft?

1544
01:23:34,479 --> 01:23:38,280
Speaker 1: You can haul it around with your helicopter. The del

1545
01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:43,600
Speaker 1: Marvas squirrels I've seen, I've seen say it it's the

1546
01:23:43,640 --> 01:23:47,400
Speaker 1: del Marroo fox squirrel. It's the fox squirrel. And Janny

1547
01:23:47,520 --> 01:23:52,960
Speaker 1: says it lumbers through the forest, lumbers down. I saw

1548
01:23:53,000 --> 01:23:54,960
Speaker 1: my second one today. The first one I saw it

1549
01:23:55,000 --> 01:23:57,880
Speaker 1: is coming down a tree and these, um, what kind

1550
01:23:57,880 --> 01:23:59,840
Speaker 1: of pine is it? La bla bla blah blah blah

1551
01:24:00,040 --> 01:24:04,640
Speaker 1: or damn not native? Right, lob blalls are not native? Yeah,

1552
01:24:05,280 --> 01:24:08,200
Speaker 1: she's that's what is that? What Abernati is trying to

1553
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:11,479
Speaker 1: get rid of that whole big gripe is is uh,

1554
01:24:11,840 --> 01:24:16,400
Speaker 1: you know they cut down all the long leaf um

1555
01:24:16,600 --> 01:24:21,439
Speaker 1: for pitch and like masting all kinds of things, and

1556
01:24:21,479 --> 01:24:25,519
Speaker 1: then lob lolly came up in its place. But it

1557
01:24:25,560 --> 01:24:27,960
Speaker 1: doesn't have it doesn't support it does doesn't support that

1558
01:24:28,120 --> 01:24:33,639
Speaker 1: understory of like that grassland ecosystem underneath it all kinds

1559
01:24:33,640 --> 01:24:36,200
Speaker 1: of trouble with the quail and whatnot. Yeah, this is

1560
01:24:36,200 --> 01:24:39,200
Speaker 1: all planted in lab lolly blah blahly plantation. We need

1561
01:24:39,240 --> 01:24:41,840
Speaker 1: to have Abernathy on to talk about lob lollies and

1562
01:24:42,360 --> 01:24:46,679
Speaker 1: long leaves. Hopefully we'll be seen in this spring anyhow. Yeah, well,

1563
01:24:46,680 --> 01:24:50,080
Speaker 1: the bark flakes, like when you're climbate, you know, it's

1564
01:24:50,080 --> 01:24:52,840
Speaker 1: just bark coming off everywhere. With this squirrel, I mean

1565
01:24:52,920 --> 01:24:56,880
Speaker 1: it was like an avalanche barks climbing down the tree.

1566
01:24:56,920 --> 01:24:59,000
Speaker 1: You know, I'm like, holy cow, I've never seen that,

1567
01:24:59,360 --> 01:25:01,559
Speaker 1: but the when I saw today, Yeah, he got got

1568
01:25:01,560 --> 01:25:03,920
Speaker 1: to watch him under the standing on the ground. You

1569
01:25:03,960 --> 01:25:08,120
Speaker 1: know how most schools like they sort of hop um,

1570
01:25:08,360 --> 01:25:11,160
Speaker 1: they're always hopping, you know. Three times, this dude was

1571
01:25:11,200 --> 01:25:14,840
Speaker 1: walking like a cat, like he's got a gate to him,

1572
01:25:14,920 --> 01:25:19,639
Speaker 1: you know. Bear. Yeah. Yeah, So my question is, what's

1573
01:25:19,680 --> 01:25:21,200
Speaker 1: it one of the chances that we're gonna get to

1574
01:25:21,200 --> 01:25:23,639
Speaker 1: come here and hunt them someday. Well, they had ees

1575
01:25:23,720 --> 01:25:26,840
Speaker 1: a protection until recently didn't. They were recently downlisted. Yeah,

1576
01:25:26,920 --> 01:25:30,519
Speaker 1: they're they're not a listed species and make the news. Yea,

1577
01:25:30,640 --> 01:25:33,960
Speaker 1: it did. It just depended on what news you're watching. Yeah,

1578
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:37,320
Speaker 1: but you know, only only two percent of species to

1579
01:25:37,360 --> 01:25:40,559
Speaker 1: get s a listing have ever made it off get

1580
01:25:40,600 --> 01:25:43,960
Speaker 1: delisted because of recovery. They get delisted because it was

1581
01:25:43,960 --> 01:25:47,840
Speaker 1: a mistake and there's like a taxonomical error, or they

1582
01:25:47,840 --> 01:25:51,599
Speaker 1: get delisted because there's a population people weren't aware of.

1583
01:25:52,400 --> 01:25:54,680
Speaker 1: But I think it's like one point seven percent of

1584
01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:58,360
Speaker 1: things that get on come off because of recovery, like

1585
01:25:58,560 --> 01:26:01,200
Speaker 1: an alligator. Guy. Yeah, so just like a big story, right,

1586
01:26:01,240 --> 01:26:05,679
Speaker 1: like the bald eagle. Now wolves in some areas, grizzly

1587
01:26:05,680 --> 01:26:08,639
Speaker 1: bears in some areas. Usually like hear about a D listing, Yeah,

1588
01:26:08,720 --> 01:26:12,040
Speaker 1: but this is a quiet delisting. Yeah, del Marva was

1589
01:26:12,080 --> 01:26:16,760
Speaker 1: excited about it. Yeah, and then uh, I know this

1590
01:26:16,880 --> 01:26:20,599
Speaker 1: is I don't think there's any plans to hunt them. Yeah,

1591
01:26:21,640 --> 01:26:25,120
Speaker 1: there's there's too much habitat loss, it's too small of

1592
01:26:25,120 --> 01:26:29,000
Speaker 1: a substanc population. But it's a fox squirrel, yes, just

1593
01:26:29,080 --> 01:26:32,439
Speaker 1: a big box squirrel. Could you could come here and

1594
01:26:32,439 --> 01:26:35,960
Speaker 1: just hunt gray squirrels and fox squirrels and have the

1595
01:26:36,040 --> 01:26:38,400
Speaker 1: enjoyment of getting to see del Marva. I guess they

1596
01:26:38,439 --> 01:26:40,840
Speaker 1: seem like pretty small gray squirrels from what I've been seeing,

1597
01:26:42,320 --> 01:26:44,760
Speaker 1: I mean, not the big giant del Marva fox. I'm saying,

1598
01:26:44,760 --> 01:26:49,519
Speaker 1: your your general Joe blow. Gray squirrels not like small

1599
01:26:49,520 --> 01:26:52,479
Speaker 1: squirrel hu. I have been looking at him, and I

1600
01:26:52,520 --> 01:26:56,000
Speaker 1: mean not that I wouldn't hunt them happily, but they

1601
01:26:56,000 --> 01:26:58,360
Speaker 1: seem to run a little small, which should be like

1602
01:26:58,400 --> 01:27:03,840
Speaker 1: part of Bergman's rule, right, Bergman's principle that that you're

1603
01:27:03,840 --> 01:27:08,000
Speaker 1: at the sub you're at the southern, you're getting towards

1604
01:27:08,400 --> 01:27:11,559
Speaker 1: your more southerly portion of their range, so they're gonna

1605
01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:15,559
Speaker 1: tend towards a more diminutive form. And I would say

1606
01:27:15,600 --> 01:27:18,479
Speaker 1: squirrel hunting is probably not as culturally big around this area.

1607
01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:20,280
Speaker 1: Is that there's in some other parts of the country

1608
01:27:20,320 --> 01:27:23,080
Speaker 1: you don't hear about people. People aren't as sophisticated down here.

1609
01:27:23,720 --> 01:27:26,799
Speaker 1: I don't know well, and it's I mean, it's it's shifted.

1610
01:27:27,120 --> 01:27:29,320
Speaker 1: You know, it's the dearest king down here, and people

1611
01:27:29,320 --> 01:27:33,320
Speaker 1: don't want squirrel hunters messing up their dear word was. Unfortunately,

1612
01:27:33,439 --> 01:27:35,519
Speaker 1: I've heard that that's the thing, is the squirrel hunters

1613
01:27:35,560 --> 01:27:38,320
Speaker 1: become It's such a shame the squirrel hunt has become

1614
01:27:38,360 --> 01:27:40,840
Speaker 1: such a second class citizen. I have had guys come

1615
01:27:40,880 --> 01:27:43,960
Speaker 1: to me and say that I've had two things happened.

1616
01:27:43,960 --> 01:27:46,120
Speaker 1: I've had friends come and say that they feel bad

1617
01:27:46,320 --> 01:27:50,479
Speaker 1: hunting squirrels during deer season. And I've had squirrel hunters

1618
01:27:50,520 --> 01:27:52,599
Speaker 1: come to me and say, this happened to Murphy. Kevin Murphy,

1619
01:27:53,080 --> 01:27:55,000
Speaker 1: who a guy has gotten down out of his tree

1620
01:27:55,040 --> 01:27:59,040
Speaker 1: stand on public land in the Mannistee National Forest in

1621
01:27:59,120 --> 01:28:01,800
Speaker 1: my home state of you can a guy got down

1622
01:28:01,800 --> 01:28:04,479
Speaker 1: out of his tree stand to accost my friend for

1623
01:28:04,600 --> 01:28:07,720
Speaker 1: having the audacity to be out hunting schools during our

1624
01:28:07,760 --> 01:28:10,759
Speaker 1: treat I would have punched that guy in the face.

1625
01:28:12,080 --> 01:28:14,240
Speaker 1: That's that's a little much. But we do. I would

1626
01:28:14,240 --> 01:28:17,519
Speaker 1: have felt, as I was gonna do, we have to.

1627
01:28:18,280 --> 01:28:21,160
Speaker 1: You know, we have a really long deer season in Maryland,

1628
01:28:21,200 --> 01:28:24,280
Speaker 1: you know, from September to the end of you're on

1629
01:28:24,280 --> 01:28:26,640
Speaker 1: the well. It makes it tough, I mean, you know,

1630
01:28:26,800 --> 01:28:29,719
Speaker 1: for for small game hunters, squirrel hunters and all, because everything,

1631
01:28:29,800 --> 01:28:31,439
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of it is least up for

1632
01:28:31,479 --> 01:28:33,439
Speaker 1: deer hunting and all. And and so that's one of

1633
01:28:33,479 --> 01:28:36,760
Speaker 1: the reasons why we don't have squirrel hunters or small

1634
01:28:36,800 --> 01:28:39,479
Speaker 1: game hunters is because it is because it's all taken

1635
01:28:39,560 --> 01:28:41,960
Speaker 1: up by deer, you know. And and there's been different

1636
01:28:41,960 --> 01:28:44,760
Speaker 1: times where We've been asked to extend deer season even

1637
01:28:44,800 --> 01:28:47,760
Speaker 1: longer in February, and it's like, you know that just

1638
01:28:48,160 --> 01:28:51,360
Speaker 1: that just takes more even more time away from you know,

1639
01:28:51,479 --> 01:28:53,439
Speaker 1: these folks that want to I want to do you know,

1640
01:28:53,479 --> 01:28:56,840
Speaker 1: these other these other hunts. You know, there's there's yeah,

1641
01:28:56,840 --> 01:28:59,439
Speaker 1: there's validity to that because you know, we used to

1642
01:28:59,479 --> 01:29:05,120
Speaker 1: hunt squirrels because squirrel season, well, archery deer open October one,

1643
01:29:05,160 --> 01:29:08,800
Speaker 1: squirrel open September, so you'd pour the coals to the

1644
01:29:08,840 --> 01:29:11,880
Speaker 1: squirrels for two weeks and then you'd pick them back

1645
01:29:11,960 --> 01:29:14,800
Speaker 1: up again when deer season end, so you'd be hunting them,

1646
01:29:14,840 --> 01:29:16,680
Speaker 1: you know, after Christmas. You'd hit them hard until the

1647
01:29:16,760 --> 01:29:18,920
Speaker 1: end of season. And that's like kind of like when

1648
01:29:18,920 --> 01:29:21,280
Speaker 1: you hunted squirrels. Yeah, so but here, you know you

1649
01:29:21,320 --> 01:29:22,960
Speaker 1: have the first you know, you have the first week

1650
01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:26,080
Speaker 1: of September basically because because deer season is into Friday

1651
01:29:26,120 --> 01:29:28,400
Speaker 1: after Labor Day, so you have the first week of

1652
01:29:28,439 --> 01:29:30,800
Speaker 1: September in general, and then like said, you might have

1653
01:29:30,840 --> 01:29:33,040
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks in February, and otherwise you gotta

1654
01:29:33,080 --> 01:29:35,000
Speaker 1: if you're a squirrel hunter or a small game hunter,

1655
01:29:35,240 --> 01:29:38,760
Speaker 1: you gotta share the woods with deer hunters, it's not

1656
01:29:38,800 --> 01:29:40,880
Speaker 1: always real fun. So if you're a deer hunter down here,

1657
01:29:40,880 --> 01:29:43,240
Speaker 1: you're hunting der five months out of the year. You

1658
01:29:43,320 --> 01:29:45,719
Speaker 1: start the Friday after Labor Day and go to January

1659
01:29:45,800 --> 01:29:51,000
Speaker 1: thirty one. Yeah, and then if you have I'm gonna

1660
01:29:51,040 --> 01:29:52,240
Speaker 1: move down here. And then if you want to like

1661
01:29:52,320 --> 01:29:54,719
Speaker 1: hunt some of the urban managed hunts, some of those

1662
01:29:54,760 --> 01:29:56,560
Speaker 1: do go into February, so you could be hunting and

1663
01:29:56,600 --> 01:30:00,760
Speaker 1: you can be like usually it's usually deer season. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1664
01:30:02,560 --> 01:30:04,920
Speaker 1: but then you can wait for springing turkey hunt. Yeah.

1665
01:30:05,600 --> 01:30:08,000
Speaker 1: I got my first. I went turkey, got my first

1666
01:30:08,040 --> 01:30:11,120
Speaker 1: turkey this year. That was like the greatest thing ever.

1667
01:30:11,400 --> 01:30:13,240
Speaker 1: That was a ton of fun. Telling you what, man,

1668
01:30:14,000 --> 01:30:17,000
Speaker 1: that's that's even more exciting than squirrel hunting. Well, yeah,

1669
01:30:17,360 --> 01:30:20,320
Speaker 1: for sure. So did you have it? Do you have

1670
01:30:20,320 --> 01:30:25,479
Speaker 1: any final thoughts? Marshall myself. Yeah, no, I just say

1671
01:30:25,640 --> 01:30:28,360
Speaker 1: come on over to Blackwater, check it out, come hunt,

1672
01:30:28,479 --> 01:30:30,639
Speaker 1: come visit. You're gonna get all kinds of the hunters

1673
01:30:30,640 --> 01:30:32,920
Speaker 1: mad at you for saying that. Oh I know, but

1674
01:30:33,000 --> 01:30:35,519
Speaker 1: that's okay, m Yeah, they might bump into you. All

1675
01:30:35,520 --> 01:30:38,800
Speaker 1: the public resources we're there. Yeah, you gotta get we

1676
01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:41,479
Speaker 1: gotta get more hunters engaged, and we've got to get

1677
01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:44,920
Speaker 1: people who haven't hunted before get excited about it. And

1678
01:30:44,960 --> 01:30:46,360
Speaker 1: the only way we're going to do that is if

1679
01:30:46,360 --> 01:30:49,240
Speaker 1: we're welcoming to new hunters, and so can people personally.

1680
01:30:49,600 --> 01:30:51,880
Speaker 1: Can people personally call you up and ask you what's up?

1681
01:30:52,200 --> 01:30:56,400
Speaker 1: People do? Oh? Yeah, yeah, I encourage that. Yeah, we

1682
01:30:56,479 --> 01:30:59,040
Speaker 1: have public meetings. I talked to folks who we get

1683
01:30:59,080 --> 01:31:01,320
Speaker 1: ideas and comments. Doesn't mean I can do everything that

1684
01:31:01,320 --> 01:31:03,920
Speaker 1: people suggest, No, I mean of some guys, like if

1685
01:31:03,960 --> 01:31:05,360
Speaker 1: some guys like, hey, man, I'm gonna come down and

1686
01:31:05,439 --> 01:31:08,160
Speaker 1: check out this secret dear thing, there's resources for him

1687
01:31:08,360 --> 01:31:12,519
Speaker 1: him or herd figure it out. Oh yeah, yeah, No,

1688
01:31:12,720 --> 01:31:15,120
Speaker 1: I think it's really important that we get more people

1689
01:31:15,400 --> 01:31:17,599
Speaker 1: to see the benefits of hunting and just getting outdoors

1690
01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:20,439
Speaker 1: in general. So we've got to be welcoming to do it.

1691
01:31:20,920 --> 01:31:23,519
Speaker 1: I've noticed too that you guys have made the hunt

1692
01:31:23,600 --> 01:31:26,720
Speaker 1: unit maps available on Google Earth and downloads, so you

1693
01:31:26,720 --> 01:31:30,040
Speaker 1: can look at it out in your smart That's probably

1694
01:31:30,080 --> 01:31:35,800
Speaker 1: the biggest impedance to new secret hunters is it's an

1695
01:31:35,840 --> 01:31:40,400
Speaker 1: intimidating landscape you get out there, and especially black Water,

1696
01:31:40,520 --> 01:31:43,400
Speaker 1: and that's like the nastiest of the nasty stuff on

1697
01:31:43,560 --> 01:31:46,080
Speaker 1: Fishing Bay and black Water, and that's where most new

1698
01:31:46,120 --> 01:31:49,920
Speaker 1: secret hunters go to. And that's uh, it's you can

1699
01:31:49,920 --> 01:31:53,840
Speaker 1: get lost out there easy, and uh it turns a

1700
01:31:53,840 --> 01:31:55,720
Speaker 1: lot of people off. A lot of people come down

1701
01:31:55,800 --> 01:31:58,160
Speaker 1: try it once and it's like, oh, no, more of

1702
01:31:58,320 --> 01:32:01,040
Speaker 1: that for me to give a sense. I was watching

1703
01:32:01,040 --> 01:32:03,960
Speaker 1: the video where a guy was hunting secret here out

1704
01:32:04,000 --> 01:32:07,400
Speaker 1: of his boat just to give you just like a yeah,

1705
01:32:07,439 --> 01:32:09,520
Speaker 1: like an example, to give you a sense of the landscape.

1706
01:32:09,520 --> 01:32:12,599
Speaker 1: And he was talking about the importance of raising when

1707
01:32:12,600 --> 01:32:16,400
Speaker 1: he leaves his boat, of raising a flag pole. He

1708
01:32:16,520 --> 01:32:18,800
Speaker 1: must not be a big GPS guy. Of raising a

1709
01:32:18,880 --> 01:32:22,120
Speaker 1: flagpole the blaze orange flag on it. Yeah, you can

1710
01:32:22,160 --> 01:32:24,040
Speaker 1: lose your boat so he can read, so he can

1711
01:32:24,080 --> 01:32:27,760
Speaker 1: locate his boat. Yep. Yeah, but don't let that scary off.

1712
01:32:29,200 --> 01:32:32,120
Speaker 1: I mean it's a great it's a great are you

1713
01:32:32,280 --> 01:32:37,599
Speaker 1: said earlier? I mean it's a fishing wildlife mecca. You know,

1714
01:32:38,000 --> 01:32:41,639
Speaker 1: you can multiple species, you can go fishing. I mean

1715
01:32:41,680 --> 01:32:44,439
Speaker 1: you can pack so much and uh, a week's trip

1716
01:32:44,560 --> 01:32:46,760
Speaker 1: or a weekend trip or whatever. I mean, it's really

1717
01:32:46,800 --> 01:32:48,799
Speaker 1: an awesome Yeah. We don't even touched the blue crabs

1718
01:32:48,800 --> 01:32:54,040
Speaker 1: and snakeheads. That's a whole another podcast. So, uh, Brian,

1719
01:32:54,040 --> 01:32:55,920
Speaker 1: you got any concluding thoughts you want to add things

1720
01:32:55,960 --> 01:32:58,840
Speaker 1: you need't get a chance to know. There are a

1721
01:32:58,880 --> 01:33:02,599
Speaker 1: great species or unique species, and it's the only place

1722
01:33:02,640 --> 01:33:05,559
Speaker 1: in the country or probably maybe in the world that

1723
01:33:05,640 --> 01:33:08,800
Speaker 1: you can hunt these guys. And they're probably one of

1724
01:33:08,800 --> 01:33:11,840
Speaker 1: the purer strains around of secret deer. A lot of

1725
01:33:11,880 --> 01:33:13,880
Speaker 1: secret deer have been hybridized. And also it's really a

1726
01:33:13,960 --> 01:33:18,839
Speaker 1: unique opportunity. Um, yeah, have Um, this is my concluder.

1727
01:33:19,120 --> 01:33:21,519
Speaker 1: That's a question. Have I know you guys have some

1728
01:33:21,560 --> 01:33:25,800
Speaker 1: c w D in Maryland. Have c w D positive

1729
01:33:25,840 --> 01:33:30,599
Speaker 1: white tales interfaced? Here's what I'm getting at. Any idea

1730
01:33:30,600 --> 01:33:34,439
Speaker 1: about whether CWD is gonna make the jump? Um can so? No?

1731
01:33:34,600 --> 01:33:38,240
Speaker 1: I mean in Maryland from a geography to standpoint or

1732
01:33:38,280 --> 01:33:40,000
Speaker 1: nowhere close. And we got the whole chich I speak

1733
01:33:40,000 --> 01:33:44,200
Speaker 1: base separating, so c w ds in western Maryland. Um, so,

1734
01:33:44,240 --> 01:33:48,840
Speaker 1: I wouldn't expect necessarily our secret deer to be exposed

1735
01:33:50,080 --> 01:33:53,680
Speaker 1: to c w D from that standpoint. Um, it's very

1736
01:33:53,760 --> 01:33:57,479
Speaker 1: plausible that that that's sick of deer, you know, or

1737
01:33:57,560 --> 01:34:00,519
Speaker 1: susceptible of c w D. No one's talc them together

1738
01:34:00,520 --> 01:34:01,960
Speaker 1: in the pen yet to see what happened, to see

1739
01:34:02,000 --> 01:34:05,000
Speaker 1: if they transmit. Now, well you've done it with monkeys. Yeah,

1740
01:34:05,000 --> 01:34:06,439
Speaker 1: oh yeah, they've done a lot of you know, they've

1741
01:34:06,479 --> 01:34:09,800
Speaker 1: done a lot of testing like that. Um just recently Yeah, yeah,

1742
01:34:09,840 --> 01:34:13,040
Speaker 1: that the word research out of Canada shows that, yeah, macaques,

1743
01:34:13,120 --> 01:34:16,719
Speaker 1: that they were able to infect macax with c w D.

1744
01:34:17,479 --> 01:34:19,720
Speaker 1: I guess kind of like implanting it. Yeah, it was

1745
01:34:19,760 --> 01:34:22,120
Speaker 1: really well, they didn't implant it, but it was really

1746
01:34:23,080 --> 01:34:25,919
Speaker 1: had high aggressive, higher loads than what you would expect

1747
01:34:26,080 --> 01:34:29,720
Speaker 1: like you or I sitting down and eating venison to

1748
01:34:29,840 --> 01:34:33,920
Speaker 1: night for dinner. So but you know that's still you know,

1749
01:34:34,439 --> 01:34:37,480
Speaker 1: you have to look at that and take that into consideration.

1750
01:34:37,520 --> 01:34:40,080
Speaker 1: And the CDC that is, you know, they they looked

1751
01:34:40,120 --> 01:34:42,880
Speaker 1: at it and they actually changed their wording for you know,

1752
01:34:43,000 --> 01:34:45,640
Speaker 1: for for hunters that are hunting in c w D

1753
01:34:45,680 --> 01:34:50,360
Speaker 1: areas and they're a little bit more um strongly, they've

1754
01:34:50,439 --> 01:34:53,040
Speaker 1: more strongly worded it now that you should really consider

1755
01:34:53,040 --> 01:34:55,200
Speaker 1: getting your dear tested if you're if you're hunting in

1756
01:34:55,200 --> 01:34:57,160
Speaker 1: a c w D area. That's what I've done the

1757
01:34:57,200 --> 01:34:59,000
Speaker 1: last couple of years. Man, when I've hunted c w

1758
01:34:59,120 --> 01:35:01,519
Speaker 1: D area. It's just it's it's the problem is it's

1759
01:35:01,560 --> 01:35:03,960
Speaker 1: hard because there's not a lot of areas to get

1760
01:35:03,960 --> 01:35:08,000
Speaker 1: that testing done. Um, So we need to make some

1761
01:35:08,080 --> 01:35:12,160
Speaker 1: improvements there, um for for hunters, you know, to be

1762
01:35:12,200 --> 01:35:15,920
Speaker 1: able to do that. But back to your original question there,

1763
01:35:16,000 --> 01:35:17,719
Speaker 1: you know, our our sick of deer or a little

1764
01:35:17,720 --> 01:35:20,639
Speaker 1: welk um. They're in the serve you know, service family,

1765
01:35:20,960 --> 01:35:23,439
Speaker 1: So I'm sure they're probably susceptible c w D. I

1766
01:35:23,439 --> 01:35:26,720
Speaker 1: wouldn't see why they why they wouldn't you know? You

1767
01:35:26,800 --> 01:35:30,719
Speaker 1: are white tailed dear mule deer ls you know, falor

1768
01:35:30,800 --> 01:35:32,559
Speaker 1: deer about the only ones that come to mind that

1769
01:35:32,840 --> 01:35:35,439
Speaker 1: I don't think, you know, they've been able to to

1770
01:35:35,520 --> 01:35:39,160
Speaker 1: get c w D into falor dear. Yeah. So, but

1771
01:35:39,920 --> 01:35:42,240
Speaker 1: so that's an interesting question you asked, though, Steve, because

1772
01:35:42,560 --> 01:35:44,400
Speaker 1: it made me think of something that I have a

1773
01:35:44,439 --> 01:35:47,720
Speaker 1: question for you, Brian. Recently, you know, this is the

1774
01:35:47,760 --> 01:35:49,759
Speaker 1: time of your e h D and the tongue starts

1775
01:35:49,800 --> 01:35:52,200
Speaker 1: hitting deer and and people are finding a lot of

1776
01:35:52,200 --> 01:35:55,599
Speaker 1: dead white tails this time of year, and increasingly I'm

1777
01:35:55,640 --> 01:36:00,120
Speaker 1: seeing guys on the internet forums referring to oh it's

1778
01:36:00,120 --> 01:36:02,360
Speaker 1: either cf C w D or e h D, and

1779
01:36:02,360 --> 01:36:05,200
Speaker 1: they're talking about us to ensure populations, and people are

1780
01:36:05,240 --> 01:36:08,080
Speaker 1: starting to sling the term around like it's it's commonplace

1781
01:36:08,120 --> 01:36:10,000
Speaker 1: and whatnot. And I wonder if the Department's doing any

1782
01:36:10,040 --> 01:36:12,760
Speaker 1: outreach to sort of combat that perception that yeah, we

1783
01:36:13,120 --> 01:36:17,040
Speaker 1: you know, let hemorrhagic disease, blue tongue. Sure you know that, right. Well,

1784
01:36:17,040 --> 01:36:19,320
Speaker 1: we're in the midst of a pretty good outbreak right

1785
01:36:19,320 --> 01:36:22,960
Speaker 1: here in Dorchester and Caroline and Talbot. So yeah, but

1786
01:36:23,000 --> 01:36:24,960
Speaker 1: it's kind of like, I mean, I don't mean, but

1787
01:36:25,120 --> 01:36:27,479
Speaker 1: that's not as scary. No, no, no, it's not your

1788
01:36:27,520 --> 01:36:29,800
Speaker 1: right because there's not a human because it's like a

1789
01:36:29,840 --> 01:36:32,040
Speaker 1: thing that happens. But a lot of our hunters, but

1790
01:36:32,120 --> 01:36:34,680
Speaker 1: a lot of our her hunters, I don't think use them. Interchange. Yeah,

1791
01:36:34,680 --> 01:36:36,320
Speaker 1: I use them and don't realize that there are two

1792
01:36:36,360 --> 01:36:39,520
Speaker 1: separate diseases. Um. So yeah, I mean, yeah, we've we've

1793
01:36:39,560 --> 01:36:42,280
Speaker 1: done press releases about h D and yeah, but i'd

1794
01:36:42,280 --> 01:36:43,720
Speaker 1: be like saying your body like I don't know, he's

1795
01:36:43,720 --> 01:36:47,040
Speaker 1: got the flu or cancer. Yeah, It's like, yeah, it's

1796
01:36:47,040 --> 01:36:49,680
Speaker 1: just like the two different things. It's completely different, you know.

1797
01:36:49,800 --> 01:36:53,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean completely different magnitude. Um, a lot

1798
01:36:53,720 --> 01:36:56,680
Speaker 1: of hunters probably feel h D is more of a

1799
01:36:56,720 --> 01:36:59,960
Speaker 1: threat than c w D because screws up the hunt. Yeah,

1800
01:37:00,080 --> 01:37:03,240
Speaker 1: screws up the hunt. Yeah, you know, I mean we

1801
01:37:03,360 --> 01:37:06,720
Speaker 1: probably you know, we we we've got there's a couple

1802
01:37:06,720 --> 01:37:08,680
Speaker 1: of areas over here where we've we've probably had a

1803
01:37:08,720 --> 01:37:10,880
Speaker 1: pretty good you know hit on the deer population. Now

1804
01:37:10,880 --> 01:37:13,880
Speaker 1: they'll bounce back in a year or two, five years

1805
01:37:13,920 --> 01:37:18,000
Speaker 1: to be back to having not even five years. Yeah.

1806
01:37:18,080 --> 01:37:20,880
Speaker 1: So but but yeah, so I was a concern from

1807
01:37:20,920 --> 01:37:24,080
Speaker 1: that standpoint. Um, but but from a human standpoint, c

1808
01:37:24,320 --> 01:37:25,960
Speaker 1: w D is definitely the you know, the one we

1809
01:37:26,000 --> 01:37:28,519
Speaker 1: have to watch. I'm gonna be more concerned about. So

1810
01:37:29,080 --> 01:37:31,320
Speaker 1: stuff keeps me up. What's a big hit for e

1811
01:37:31,560 --> 01:37:36,200
Speaker 1: h D? Like a really big hit would be fifty

1812
01:37:36,520 --> 01:37:41,320
Speaker 1: of the popular that was seventy year or something. Uh, Well,

1813
01:37:41,360 --> 01:37:43,040
Speaker 1: you know what, if you're in a and if you're

1814
01:37:43,040 --> 01:37:46,080
Speaker 1: in a naive state, like a deer population that's never

1815
01:37:46,080 --> 01:37:49,759
Speaker 1: seen it before, you probably could get you know, over fifty.

1816
01:37:50,600 --> 01:37:52,600
Speaker 1: But here in the East where we've had you know,

1817
01:37:52,600 --> 01:37:55,120
Speaker 1: we've had h D since the seventies, I think, or

1818
01:37:55,960 --> 01:37:58,240
Speaker 1: now it's probably might even been before that they found

1819
01:37:58,280 --> 01:38:02,679
Speaker 1: in New Jersey and fifty five identified or identified it, Yeah,

1820
01:38:02,760 --> 01:38:06,200
Speaker 1: and fifty five and described it scientifically. It might have

1821
01:38:06,200 --> 01:38:08,280
Speaker 1: always it could have been there before that, right, but

1822
01:38:08,640 --> 01:38:11,080
Speaker 1: not too much longer there because we were reintroducing deer

1823
01:38:11,120 --> 01:38:14,000
Speaker 1: and thirties and forties, so it wouldn't have been too

1824
01:38:14,360 --> 01:38:17,920
Speaker 1: much before that. Well. Anyways, long story is a big

1825
01:38:18,000 --> 01:38:20,720
Speaker 1: hit around here. Yeah, would be a big hit. And

1826
01:38:20,760 --> 01:38:22,880
Speaker 1: that's the term. Naive state would be a state where

1827
01:38:23,160 --> 01:38:26,280
Speaker 1: naive the first time of population, the population that hasn't

1828
01:38:26,320 --> 01:38:29,760
Speaker 1: had it before. Yeah, like Ontario this year, because I've

1829
01:38:29,760 --> 01:38:32,840
Speaker 1: been to some naive states. Yeah, but not for not

1830
01:38:32,920 --> 01:38:37,720
Speaker 1: for HD, like Ontario had their first had their first

1831
01:38:37,920 --> 01:38:41,559
Speaker 1: HD cases here Connecticut. They're in the news right now.

1832
01:38:41,760 --> 01:38:45,160
Speaker 1: They have HD right now. So it's there's light at

1833
01:38:45,200 --> 01:38:47,800
Speaker 1: the end of the tunnel, slowly moving moving. Have we

1834
01:38:47,880 --> 01:38:51,439
Speaker 1: gone over HD before? We've never done. Is it possible

1835
01:38:51,439 --> 01:38:54,800
Speaker 1: to give us like a two to five minute yeah,

1836
01:38:55,000 --> 01:38:58,840
Speaker 1: HD or e H D episodic and this can you

1837
01:38:58,840 --> 01:39:02,000
Speaker 1: include how people call and blue tongue is Well, they're

1838
01:39:02,000 --> 01:39:04,400
Speaker 1: two separate, they're two different things. I mean, yeah, they're

1839
01:39:04,400 --> 01:39:08,200
Speaker 1: two different strains. Yeah, there's actually yeah, no, No, they're

1840
01:39:08,200 --> 01:39:11,000
Speaker 1: actually different. There's different strains of of h D m

1841
01:39:11,120 --> 01:39:13,840
Speaker 1: r agics disease, and some of them are e h

1842
01:39:13,960 --> 01:39:16,479
Speaker 1: D and some of them are blue tongue. And then

1843
01:39:16,600 --> 01:39:20,280
Speaker 1: within within there's there's different different strains. So like here

1844
01:39:20,320 --> 01:39:22,959
Speaker 1: in Maryland, we're in an outbreak right now, so we'll

1845
01:39:22,960 --> 01:39:24,880
Speaker 1: try to get our hands on samples. We send them

1846
01:39:24,880 --> 01:39:29,320
Speaker 1: to Georgia to the Southeast Cooperative Wildlife Disease Study. They

1847
01:39:29,360 --> 01:39:31,600
Speaker 1: do the testing for us, and we have e h

1848
01:39:31,680 --> 01:39:34,720
Speaker 1: D two and e h D six. We're working on

1849
01:39:34,760 --> 01:39:38,479
Speaker 1: our deer right now. It's a virus and it's spread

1850
01:39:38,520 --> 01:39:41,800
Speaker 1: by noseums, gnats, midges, whatever you wanna call them, co

1851
01:39:41,880 --> 01:39:46,160
Speaker 1: coiled days um and nothing you can do about it.

1852
01:39:46,320 --> 01:39:48,840
Speaker 1: You know, it's no threat the humans um, but when

1853
01:39:48,840 --> 01:39:51,080
Speaker 1: it gets into a deer population, I mean you know,

1854
01:39:51,120 --> 01:39:53,919
Speaker 1: it can kill a significant number a number of the animals.

1855
01:39:53,920 --> 01:39:56,640
Speaker 1: And like we were just talking about, if it's a

1856
01:39:56,720 --> 01:39:59,200
Speaker 1: if it's a population that's been exposed to h D

1857
01:39:59,400 --> 01:40:01,960
Speaker 1: over the year, they're more resistance, so you won't see

1858
01:40:02,000 --> 01:40:05,960
Speaker 1: us significant of an impact. But as this disease or

1859
01:40:06,080 --> 01:40:09,439
Speaker 1: virus moves north and gets into into these populations that

1860
01:40:09,439 --> 01:40:12,000
Speaker 1: have never been exposed. It can it can hit them

1861
01:40:12,040 --> 01:40:16,920
Speaker 1: pretty hard, um, you know, and then up mortality. Um.

1862
01:40:17,000 --> 01:40:18,839
Speaker 1: And that's why you see it in the news Michigan

1863
01:40:19,760 --> 01:40:21,599
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, it was it was big

1864
01:40:21,640 --> 01:40:24,400
Speaker 1: news in Michigan for when it where my brother Matt

1865
01:40:24,439 --> 01:40:29,439
Speaker 1: lives in eastern Montana, they got swept. Yeah. So it's

1866
01:40:29,439 --> 01:40:31,840
Speaker 1: starting to you know, it's it's really starting to radiate out.

1867
01:40:32,680 --> 01:40:35,240
Speaker 1: You know, here in the East, we haven't seen any detrimental,

1868
01:40:35,520 --> 01:40:38,880
Speaker 1: long term issue, you know, issues with it. I mean

1869
01:40:38,880 --> 01:40:42,400
Speaker 1: that what's the spacing on epidemics about it seems like

1870
01:40:42,520 --> 01:40:46,960
Speaker 1: every five to seven years we get a big outbreak.

1871
01:40:47,360 --> 01:40:50,080
Speaker 1: Now we'll have deaths every year, you know, it'll spring

1872
01:40:50,160 --> 01:40:53,840
Speaker 1: up every year. Um, but it seems like every five, six,

1873
01:40:53,880 --> 01:40:56,680
Speaker 1: seven years we get a pretty big out Does it

1874
01:40:56,800 --> 01:41:00,920
Speaker 1: correlate with a big population, Well, that would be part

1875
01:41:01,000 --> 01:41:03,960
Speaker 1: of it, you know, because there's that certain there's that

1876
01:41:04,040 --> 01:41:08,599
Speaker 1: certain proportion of the population that is resistant and that

1877
01:41:08,640 --> 01:41:11,960
Speaker 1: proportion that's not resistant. As it builds up, that gets

1878
01:41:12,040 --> 01:41:13,640
Speaker 1: up to a certain point and then you'll see a

1879
01:41:13,920 --> 01:41:19,200
Speaker 1: bigger outbreak. Um. So so that that plays into it. Um.

1880
01:41:19,240 --> 01:41:23,320
Speaker 1: There's also theories that weather plays into it. UM, it

1881
01:41:23,800 --> 01:41:26,880
Speaker 1: seems like possibly if it's a drought, if it's a

1882
01:41:26,920 --> 01:41:31,439
Speaker 1: mild winter, any drought summer or a dry summer. UM.

1883
01:41:31,479 --> 01:41:34,679
Speaker 1: The thought is that you have reduced areas with water

1884
01:41:35,520 --> 01:41:39,320
Speaker 1: UM and also probably increased breeding. Maybe areas for these

1885
01:41:39,439 --> 01:41:43,000
Speaker 1: for these gnats might congregate dear more around the water

1886
01:41:43,040 --> 01:41:46,000
Speaker 1: that's available, so you know, you might have a worse

1887
01:41:46,160 --> 01:41:49,840
Speaker 1: year for for HD. UM. There's some theories out there

1888
01:41:49,920 --> 01:41:52,559
Speaker 1: that maybe we're starting to see it further north based

1889
01:41:52,600 --> 01:41:55,360
Speaker 1: on maybe some changes in wind patterns. Maybe some of

1890
01:41:55,400 --> 01:41:58,320
Speaker 1: these maybe some of these gnats are actually physically being

1891
01:41:58,960 --> 01:42:02,479
Speaker 1: transported to new areas, you know, where they haven't been before.

1892
01:42:02,560 --> 01:42:04,519
Speaker 1: So there's a lot we still don't know UM, And

1893
01:42:04,520 --> 01:42:07,080
Speaker 1: there's a lot of research going on. UM. But it

1894
01:42:07,200 --> 01:42:09,439
Speaker 1: is it's a it's been around, like I said, I mean,

1895
01:42:09,479 --> 01:42:13,120
Speaker 1: it was identified in New Jersey and fifty five I think.

1896
01:42:13,200 --> 01:42:16,439
Speaker 1: So it's nothing to you know, really get worked up about.

1897
01:42:16,560 --> 01:42:18,640
Speaker 1: But but it happens, you know, it happens every year.

1898
01:42:18,720 --> 01:42:20,759
Speaker 1: So what are the symptoms and how does the killer

1899
01:42:20,800 --> 01:42:23,679
Speaker 1: dere so want to ask, what's death look like? So

1900
01:42:24,000 --> 01:42:27,479
Speaker 1: it is pretty vicious. I mean, it's very fast acting. UM.

1901
01:42:27,520 --> 01:42:30,599
Speaker 1: If it's a deer that that's not resistant to it UM.

1902
01:42:30,640 --> 01:42:35,120
Speaker 1: It literally breaks down cells and breaks down blood vessels UM,

1903
01:42:35,240 --> 01:42:39,519
Speaker 1: and the deer hemorrhages to death. Um or or you know,

1904
01:42:38,439 --> 01:42:41,839
Speaker 1: or you know causes fluid on the lungs and basically drowns.

1905
01:42:42,360 --> 01:42:46,000
Speaker 1: UM causes a real high fever. So a lot of

1906
01:42:46,040 --> 01:42:47,840
Speaker 1: times we'll get a you know, we'll get a call,

1907
01:42:47,920 --> 01:42:51,000
Speaker 1: hey there's three deer fluting in my pond, or you know,

1908
01:42:51,160 --> 01:42:54,280
Speaker 1: some somebody may be fishing on a nanniocoke and found

1909
01:42:55,000 --> 01:42:58,759
Speaker 1: two or three. Yeah. Yeah, it drives into water so um.

1910
01:42:58,800 --> 01:43:02,000
Speaker 1: But it actually it's you know, it's hamorrhagic disease. So

1911
01:43:02,000 --> 01:43:04,559
Speaker 1: I mean it acts on them real quick. Um. There

1912
01:43:04,600 --> 01:43:07,720
Speaker 1: is a certain proportion that survives that you know, if

1913
01:43:08,000 --> 01:43:10,400
Speaker 1: if they get it UM. And an easy way to

1914
01:43:10,439 --> 01:43:12,639
Speaker 1: tell if it's a deal that that that had HD

1915
01:43:12,760 --> 01:43:14,560
Speaker 1: and survived is you know, if you're writing and you

1916
01:43:14,640 --> 01:43:16,960
Speaker 1: kill a deer, if the hooves are all sloughing off

1917
01:43:17,720 --> 01:43:21,479
Speaker 1: because of arrests hoof growth, I guess, And then if

1918
01:43:21,479 --> 01:43:24,559
Speaker 1: they survive it, then when the who's start growing again, um,

1919
01:43:24,560 --> 01:43:27,160
Speaker 1: it's sloughs off, so their their hooves will look pretty

1920
01:43:27,200 --> 01:43:30,720
Speaker 1: pretty rough. Yeah, so you know, the water thing explains

1921
01:43:30,760 --> 01:43:34,680
Speaker 1: something that happened to me once years ago when the

1922
01:43:34,760 --> 01:43:39,280
Speaker 1: Lower Yellowstone had an outbreak. I was at the tax

1923
01:43:39,400 --> 01:43:43,960
Speaker 1: therm was there in Miles City, and his shot was

1924
01:43:44,000 --> 01:43:46,920
Speaker 1: just full of bucks that he was doing euro Mountain

1925
01:43:46,960 --> 01:43:52,200
Speaker 1: on giants. Yeah, And I was like, what the hell

1926
01:43:52,200 --> 01:43:54,320
Speaker 1: all these bucks doing here? And he's like, man, these

1927
01:43:54,320 --> 01:43:56,120
Speaker 1: are all things farmers are pulling out of the river,

1928
01:43:56,320 --> 01:43:59,160
Speaker 1: is that right? And no one knew the bucks like this,

1929
01:43:59,240 --> 01:44:00,720
Speaker 1: Like I didn't know. I you know, I spent a

1930
01:44:00,760 --> 01:44:02,639
Speaker 1: lot of time knocking around there, like a whole class

1931
01:44:02,680 --> 01:44:05,400
Speaker 1: of bucks. He just didn't know existing down in those

1932
01:44:05,640 --> 01:44:08,320
Speaker 1: willow you know, down like the willow choke bottoms and stuff.

1933
01:44:08,360 --> 01:44:10,320
Speaker 1: But yeah, he said, he said, every farmer in town

1934
01:44:10,360 --> 01:44:13,519
Speaker 1: is bringing them all these bucks. He's buckheads dragging about

1935
01:44:13,600 --> 01:44:17,080
Speaker 1: these giants. You know a lot of times, you know,

1936
01:44:18,000 --> 01:44:21,080
Speaker 1: we'll hear all. It hits bucks harder, and I don't

1937
01:44:21,400 --> 01:44:23,360
Speaker 1: I think if you looked into the data that you're

1938
01:44:23,439 --> 01:44:26,800
Speaker 1: just you just see that buck first, you know, And

1939
01:44:26,840 --> 01:44:28,880
Speaker 1: I think that's what your mind perceives. But I think

1940
01:44:28,880 --> 01:44:31,880
Speaker 1: it's an equal opportunity virus. I think it's probably you know,

1941
01:44:31,880 --> 01:44:34,479
Speaker 1: it's probably hitting any of them, but this this area

1942
01:44:34,520 --> 01:44:36,840
Speaker 1: as well gets uh, this part of the river gets

1943
01:44:36,840 --> 01:44:40,000
Speaker 1: bad ice dams. They had ice dams so bad in

1944
01:44:40,080 --> 01:44:41,960
Speaker 1: the forties that they had to take a like a

1945
01:44:41,960 --> 01:44:45,240
Speaker 1: full on bomber. It took an Air Force bomber and

1946
01:44:45,320 --> 01:44:48,200
Speaker 1: dropped ordinance to break up an ice dam that was

1947
01:44:48,200 --> 01:44:51,600
Speaker 1: gonna flood mild City. They then levied some parts of

1948
01:44:51,640 --> 01:44:54,519
Speaker 1: the town off to protect it from overflow from ice dams.

1949
01:44:54,560 --> 01:44:57,400
Speaker 1: But a couple of years ago big ice dam formed

1950
01:44:57,439 --> 01:45:00,760
Speaker 1: up and flooded all the lowlands. Eventually the ice dam

1951
01:45:00,840 --> 01:45:03,760
Speaker 1: breaks up, and we're down in there, uh, fish and

1952
01:45:03,800 --> 01:45:06,920
Speaker 1: calfish and one around looking for turkeys and whatnot in

1953
01:45:06,960 --> 01:45:10,439
Speaker 1: the spring, and there's fish hundreds of yards away from

1954
01:45:10,439 --> 01:45:13,400
Speaker 1: the river, just like laying out in fields and out

1955
01:45:13,400 --> 01:45:16,080
Speaker 1: in like cottonwood groves, just fish every where. My boy says, yeah,

1956
01:45:16,080 --> 01:45:18,160
Speaker 1: they get up in there when the ice dam forms

1957
01:45:18,160 --> 01:45:20,800
Speaker 1: and they're swimming all over hell. And then I think

1958
01:45:20,880 --> 01:45:23,240
Speaker 1: when it busts that drains also fast, just leaves the

1959
01:45:23,240 --> 01:45:25,320
Speaker 1: fish and so it just be like catfish and carpet

1960
01:45:25,360 --> 01:45:29,040
Speaker 1: suckers scattered. That's yeah, all over in the woods everywhere.

1961
01:45:29,600 --> 01:45:31,920
Speaker 1: It looks like it was like rain and fish, so

1962
01:45:32,840 --> 01:45:37,840
Speaker 1: death and miles city. Um, the last thing was blue tongue.

1963
01:45:37,840 --> 01:45:40,320
Speaker 1: Do we get to what I was? Yeah, just it.

1964
01:45:42,080 --> 01:45:45,439
Speaker 1: It causes a blood flow issue and oxygen deprivation. So

1965
01:45:45,560 --> 01:45:47,559
Speaker 1: a lot of times you'll the tongue will turn blue.

1966
01:45:47,880 --> 01:45:50,320
Speaker 1: But only the one form causes or do they both

1967
01:45:50,360 --> 01:45:52,680
Speaker 1: cause blue tongue? They both, as far as I know,

1968
01:45:52,800 --> 01:45:55,280
Speaker 1: they both can cause. Yeah, the blue tongue issue. A

1969
01:45:55,360 --> 01:45:58,200
Speaker 1: lot of you'll see stars in the mouth. Um, that's

1970
01:45:58,200 --> 01:46:00,360
Speaker 1: another sign that it was a deer that at each

1971
01:46:00,560 --> 01:46:02,080
Speaker 1: Is it in life or death that it gets a

1972
01:46:02,080 --> 01:46:05,200
Speaker 1: blue tongue? Um, I think it's very as it happens

1973
01:46:05,200 --> 01:46:08,080
Speaker 1: so fast. I think it's right there at that you know,

1974
01:46:08,200 --> 01:46:11,920
Speaker 1: the deer could still be alive. Um so, but it,

1975
01:46:12,080 --> 01:46:14,160
Speaker 1: like I said, it, it acts pretty quick on them,

1976
01:46:14,280 --> 01:46:17,040
Speaker 1: um than four probably hours forty eight hours. They go

1977
01:46:17,200 --> 01:46:21,600
Speaker 1: from probably alive too dead that fast? Do you guys? So,

1978
01:46:21,640 --> 01:46:24,000
Speaker 1: do you guys even bother going in and youthanizing sick?

1979
01:46:24,080 --> 01:46:27,600
Speaker 1: Dear that it happens so quick that very most of

1980
01:46:27,640 --> 01:46:29,760
Speaker 1: the times when we get a report, it's a deer

1981
01:46:29,800 --> 01:46:32,479
Speaker 1: that that was that's already dead or the you know,

1982
01:46:32,560 --> 01:46:34,400
Speaker 1: the land owner says Yeah, I was watching it was

1983
01:46:34,439 --> 01:46:37,639
Speaker 1: sick and then now it's dead. So you know, it happens,

1984
01:46:37,800 --> 01:46:40,720
Speaker 1: It happens pretty quick. They're not clinical for for a

1985
01:46:40,760 --> 01:46:43,320
Speaker 1: long time c w D chronic wasting disease, you know,

1986
01:46:43,360 --> 01:46:45,920
Speaker 1: I mean they can carry that, yeah, very slow acting,

1987
01:46:45,960 --> 01:46:51,720
Speaker 1: but hdn hit some pretty quick. Yeah. So yeah, it

1988
01:46:51,760 --> 01:46:53,559
Speaker 1: sounds like if you are going to catch when, I'll

1989
01:46:53,560 --> 01:46:58,400
Speaker 1: go with the h D. Yeah, sick of deer. Just

1990
01:46:58,400 --> 01:47:00,160
Speaker 1: just a little note one that as far as we

1991
01:47:00,280 --> 01:47:03,200
Speaker 1: never sick of deer, do not get HD or a

1992
01:47:03,200 --> 01:47:06,280
Speaker 1: blue tongue. Now, back when I was doing my my

1993
01:47:06,400 --> 01:47:08,839
Speaker 1: graduate work, I had a bunch of deer radio collared

1994
01:47:08,960 --> 01:47:11,320
Speaker 1: not too far from here, and we had an HD

1995
01:47:11,439 --> 01:47:16,400
Speaker 1: outbreak and it killed I forget what percentage, but it killed.

1996
01:47:16,560 --> 01:47:19,120
Speaker 1: It killed quite a few of my radio collared white tails,

1997
01:47:19,160 --> 01:47:22,880
Speaker 1: and never touched one of my sick of deer, so

1998
01:47:23,080 --> 01:47:25,800
Speaker 1: that I had of callers really not saying it's impossible,

1999
01:47:25,840 --> 01:47:28,599
Speaker 1: but but just based on on what we've seen, we've

2000
01:47:28,600 --> 01:47:31,040
Speaker 1: never had a report of one. We've never been able

2001
01:47:31,080 --> 01:47:32,960
Speaker 1: to test one. And like I said, none of my

2002
01:47:33,080 --> 01:47:39,080
Speaker 1: radio collared animals ever, I never got it, So wow, man, Yeah,

2003
01:47:39,160 --> 01:47:40,960
Speaker 1: maybe someday My kill would be like, what's the white tail.

2004
01:47:41,720 --> 01:47:45,599
Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't. I just know about sex,

2005
01:47:48,439 --> 01:47:51,400
Speaker 1: all right, guys, Well, thanks so much man uh for

2006
01:47:51,479 --> 01:47:55,200
Speaker 1: coming up. Thank you. It's exciting. I think people will

2007
01:47:55,240 --> 01:47:56,680
Speaker 1: be really interested in this, and the people from here

2008
01:47:56,680 --> 01:48:00,320
Speaker 1: will be real mad we talked about this at such length. Yeah,

2009
01:48:00,720 --> 01:48:03,479
Speaker 1: thank you very much. I really appreciate it. Thank you

2010
01:48:28,520 --> 01:48:28,560
Speaker 1: m