1 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: Wayne's calling now an inmate at Telford Units. This call 2 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: is being here and I can. 3 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 2: To accept this free call for us once. 4 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: Y'all better buckle up. This episode might need to come 5 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: with a warning because you are going to be knocked out. 6 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: We have doctor Catherine Ramslin. She teaches at the master's 7 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 1: level at de Sales University. She has appeared in more 8 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: than two hundred crime documentaries and magazine shows. She has 9 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: authored more than fifteen hundred articles and more than seventy books. Now, 10 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell y'all something. If you feel like 11 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: you hadn't really accomplished much, you don't need to listen 12 00:00:55,360 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: to the rest of her CV or resume or her accolades. 13 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: Let me tell you how accomplished she is. She is 14 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: so accomplished. Her horse has written a book. I looked 15 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: straight at Traveler McCollum, my dog, and I said, Traveler, 16 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: you need to tighten up. We are behind. We are pitiful. 17 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: So I'm just telling you when you look at what 18 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: she has done. She has written books like How to 19 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: Catch a Killer, The Psychology of Death Investigations, which sits 20 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: on my desk at work, The Mind of a Murderer, 21 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: y'all know she helped BTK on his autobiography Dennis Raider. 22 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: Her area of expertise is extreme offenders, serial killers, mass murderers, 23 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: and sex offenders. She is also graciously answered questions from 24 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: me on several cases, which I appreciate. Doctor. It is 25 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: an honor for you to be with us, and welcome 26 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: to Zone seven. 27 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here. 28 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: Next, we have Tracey Ullman. She is also an author. 29 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: She is a documentary producer, director, and writer. Now, y'all, 30 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: one of those jobs is a lot. She is all 31 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: three you talk about a triple threat. This is a 32 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: talented woman. She has produced dozens of nonfiction TV programs 33 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: for Discovery, Oxygen, and PBS. Her most recent project was 34 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: a six part limited documentary series about the serial killer 35 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: John Wayne Gacy that you can find on Peacock. We 36 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: also have a buddy in common, Karen Conti, who's also 37 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: been on the show. Tracy, Welcome to Zone seven. I 38 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: appreciate you being here so much. 39 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate you. 40 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: We've got a surprise for everybody, and I'm going to 41 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: let Tracy introduce our surprise special guest. 42 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 4: Our book myself and doctor Ramsland is called The Serial 43 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 4: Killer Apprentice and it looks more deeply into the case 44 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 4: of Dean Coral. And the only living person from that 45 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 4: case who knows it from the inside is onma Wayne Henley, 46 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 4: and we have him here on the phone today. 47 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: Wayne. I appreciate you being here and I just want 48 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: to tell you welcome to Zone seven. 49 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 2: Thank you, and I hope this will release some people 50 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 2: and help some people. 51 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: You know it can't help, but do that because I'm 52 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: going to tell you, until doctor Ramsland and Tracy Ullman 53 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: wrote this book, I don't know that I have ever 54 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: read anything that truly focused on somebody that was targeted 55 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: and pulled into something. And the title of the book, 56 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: of course, just knocked you in the face because when 57 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: you realize somebody was an apprentice to a serial killer. 58 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: So Wayne, I'm going to let you kind of drive 59 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: this train. You start talk and tell us where you 60 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: want to go, and then the rest of us will 61 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: join you. 62 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 2: What I'm hoping to do with all of this, and 63 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 2: my participation, is to spread the message stead if this 64 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 2: happens to too many children, teenagers, young people, way too 65 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 2: often we've concentrated over the years on the females, on 66 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 2: the young girls who are prostituted or made to cell 67 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 2: growths or a rob banks or whatever. But we fail 68 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 2: to realize that this is happening to young boys. It 69 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 2: runs their lives and get caught up to something beyond 70 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 2: their control, and they don't really have any avenue to 71 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 2: sea killed. And I want people to be aware of 72 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 2: this and to listen to their to the young people, 73 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 2: talk to them. 74 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: And Wayne, you were only fourteen. 75 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 2: I was fourteen when I'm being called fourteen to young age. Actually, 76 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 2: to be honest with you, I really hadn't really realized 77 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 2: how young until doctor Ramdam made me realize that, recognize 78 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 2: that I was fourteen. 79 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: I mean that's a child, Yes, this child. You made 80 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: a statement in the book where you said the first 81 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 1: thing that Coral ever said to you was a joke. 82 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 1: Can you talk about that a little bit. 83 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 2: The first thing he said to me was that it 84 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:27,919 Speaker 2: was an obscene joke, so I won't repeat it, but 85 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 2: it was It made me feel like I am I'm 86 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 2: I'm part of this group. It made it made me 87 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 2: think that i'm i'm I'm old enough to appreciate something. 88 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 2: These things, and that really wasn't but it's a pattern 89 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 2: that these people have. They that make themselves available to 90 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 2: make the young people feel like they are being heard 91 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 2: and they're part of They're recognized and part of the group. 92 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: Now, doctor Ramslin, that is a pattern. And it was 93 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: a test that was a straight up test to see 94 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: how Wayne would react. 95 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, So when I first started talking to Wayne, he 96 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 3: told me that, and I said, that's probably the first thing. 97 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 3: The most common first thing they do is to test 98 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 3: somebody with an off color joke to see if they'll 99 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 3: go for it. And if they do, they know they 100 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 3: can push them a little more and a little more 101 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 3: until they can push them past their soft limits and 102 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 3: get them to do things they wouldn't themselves have ever 103 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 3: thought of. And I will also say when I first 104 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 3: started talking to Wayne, he wanted to take adult responsibility 105 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 3: for decisions he made at age fourteen and fifteen. And 106 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 3: we talked a lot about the research we have now 107 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 3: about the juvenile brain and the way it processes information 108 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 3: and the way it approaches moral kinds of questions and 109 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 3: problem solving, and I think he had not really realized 110 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 3: a lot of that until we talked, and at that 111 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 3: point he began to see that he was just not 112 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 3: prepared to deal with an adult predator who was targeting 113 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 3: him and grooming him, and grooming the entire community around him, 114 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 3: including his own family, so that nobody would question the 115 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 3: moves he was making, and he could, little by little 116 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 3: leverage Wayne into doing what he wanted. 117 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: And Tracy, I think you did such a great job 118 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: when you first made contact and develop the relationship with Wayne, 119 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: and y'all make a point in the book where you 120 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: talk about there is a blurred line between victim and accomplice. 121 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: Can you talk about that a little bit? 122 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 4: I think that when I first talked to Wayne, I 123 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 4: was calling him because I was finishing off John Wayne 124 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 4: Gacy Devil in Disguise, the six part series for Peacock, 125 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 4: and I wanted to understand Wayne's sense of himself and 126 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 4: what was going on around him as an accomplice, because 127 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 4: we discovered that Gaycy similarly had accomplices, one of whom 128 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 4: was still living, and I wanted to get an insight. 129 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 4: And as Wayne was telling me about his experiences, it 130 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 4: occurred to me, wait, here you are serving this more 131 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 4: than five hundred year sentence, and your understanding of your 132 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 4: role is, you know, how could you take how could 133 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 4: you have agency in making these decisions when you were 134 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 4: so young and you're up against somebody who is completely 135 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 4: out maneuvering you and taking advantage of his adult position. 136 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 4: And as we started talking about it, I thought, you 137 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 4: know what, it'll be great to have doctor Ramsland really 138 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 4: dig into that aspect of it. And it was in 139 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 4: some ways it felt like a relief, I think for 140 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 4: both Wayne and I to be able to talk openly 141 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 4: about that. Nobody had ever said, wait, how young were you? 142 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 4: Because what I thought about myself as a fourteen year old, 143 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,719 Speaker 4: I thought I did not have this kind of cognition. 144 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 4: I wasn't world worry. I didn't I didn't really understand 145 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 4: how the world functioned. And you only realize that as 146 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 4: you're an adult. But when you're a kid, you know, 147 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 4: in some ways, like you're saying through this joke, you 148 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 4: feel like, oh, wait, I'm more adult than I thought 149 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 4: I was. I'm being you know, kind of you know, 150 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 4: leveled up here, when actually all you're doing is being 151 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 4: manipulated and your natural instincts are being taken advantage of. 152 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: Absolutely and that's why predators give victims beer and pot 153 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: and let them watch porn. They're making them feel grown 154 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: where nobody else in their world is. So that's another 155 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: way you start grooming them. You start getting their you know, 156 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: defenses down and they think, hey, I'm part of this 157 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 1: group where they see me as an a cool Now, Wayne, 158 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,959 Speaker 1: you at fourteen had lots of future plans. You were 159 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: a good student, you were well groomed. You wanted to 160 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: be a preacher. 161 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 2: To me, before I became involved with being Carl, is 162 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 2: totally opposite of who I was with Karl. It made 163 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 2: it makes no sense to me. Now I can't. I 164 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 2: can't see it because I had I'm just square. I 165 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 2: enjoyed school. I still enjoy learning. I didn't have many 166 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 2: streets marts. When I wasn't in school, I was working 167 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 2: Dean now I know that didn't kind of have a 168 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 2: clean slate work with and he worked. He worked hard 169 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 2: at it. He started making me question my faith in 170 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 2: God and who God was and was he even there? 171 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 2: And he worked hard at that. How can it be 172 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 2: a god if if your father teacher, your mother and 173 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:06,719 Speaker 2: your brothers like this, Mama, God left that happen. So 174 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 2: he was connecting that to the real experiences and yeah, 175 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 2: and I began to question. I think that his is 176 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 2: also also his failure with me was the fact that 177 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 2: he was never able to completely ressert God in my life. 178 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 2: You will ride the conditioning and training that I've gotten. 179 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: From my mother and now doctor Ramslin to me, what 180 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: he's explaining is victim selection. So can you talk a 181 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: little bit about how these predators select these victims. 182 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 4: Yeah. 183 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 3: I have a term I use in the book the 184 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 3: murder like the radar, the gadar, the sense of who 185 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 3: can be successfully manipulated, What do they need that will 186 00:11:54,920 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 3: work to ensure that whatever move the predator makes will 187 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 3: be received. And they look for somebody like that. They 188 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 3: could be wrong. There certainly have been some of these 189 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 3: predators who chose the wrong person entirely, and that person 190 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 3: then turn them in. But they really hone their ability 191 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 3: to look for ul particular types of vulnerabilities that they 192 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 3: know they can meet. Like David Brooks needed money in 193 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 3: a place to stay, someone else might need might want drugs. 194 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 3: Someone else might have been thrown out of their home, 195 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 3: or be lonely or not doing well in school. They 196 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 3: look for vulnerabilities that make that person into appliable partner. 197 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: And you know, when I read that part of the book, 198 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I have people in my life that talk 199 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,079 Speaker 1: about that gut feeling, that radar, and people willingly accept it, 200 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: they don't question that it's absolutely true. And when you 201 00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: said that about Mr Dar it just was a truck 202 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:04,079 Speaker 1: that hit me, and I'm like, of course, of course 203 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: these killers have it, and they. 204 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 3: Developed the predator's eye. I talk about the what in 205 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 3: sports is called the quiet eye, the eye that really 206 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 3: can see the ball in a very intense, almost slowed 207 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 3: down way, so that they're able to master it. And 208 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 3: the predators do the same thing. They have a quiet 209 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:29,839 Speaker 3: eye for certain specific behaviors traits that they know are 210 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 3: going to work in their favor. 211 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: Now, Tracy, when you first started talking to Wayne, how 212 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,959 Speaker 1: did you gain his trust? And Wayne, I'm going to 213 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: ask you to follow up and talk about how long 214 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: it took you to really trust Tracy Olmen. I don't 215 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: know that. 216 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 4: That was something that I thought through really hard. I 217 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 4: think that I just knew that I wanted to speak 218 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 4: with him, and we talking, and I think we had 219 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 4: an agreement that, you know, this was not simply going 220 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 4: to be a usery relationship, you know, where it was transactional. 221 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 4: It had to be an in depth relationship. So I 222 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 4: formed a friendship with Wayne's mother and I was in 223 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 4: fairly constant communication with her as well, and so it 224 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 4: felt like, you know, we were going towards the same 225 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,119 Speaker 4: goal and that was kind of bolstered by friendship. 226 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 2: Well that's exactly what happened. We actually talked for a 227 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 2: number of several years before things began to move forward 228 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 2: any kind of way. But I had seen how Tracy had. 229 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 2: She never pushed me, she never asked questions that I 230 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 2: think were very egregious and morbid. You know, she just 231 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 2: trying to be there. And then I appreciated that. But 232 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 2: the trust comes in that I that I learned over 233 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 2: my life. Trust is and you don't earn trust. Someone 234 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 2: gives you their trust and then you've earned the right 235 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 2: to keep it. And I finally had made up my 236 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 2: mind that I was going to trust Tracy and consequently 237 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 2: chat for in uh and I told Catherine, Sat Fawn, 238 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 2: this is it. We're gonna do this. I'm gonna trust you, 239 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 2: and uh, it's gonna be one hundred percent. 240 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: Well it works because this is a powerful book that 241 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: I think is going to give some insight to a 242 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: lot of people. You know, doctor Eric Hickey obviously wrote 243 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: about your book, and I want to quote him. Dtor 244 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: Ramsland offers us insights into the mind of a serial killer, 245 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: rarely seen in criminological literature. Now, doctor Hickey and I 246 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: got to do something really unique together. Several years ago. 247 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: He came to Atlanta and we went to everyvery single 248 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: body disposal site of Wayne Williams to show some insight 249 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: to what he might have been thinking and how he 250 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: made the decision to kidnap from here and dispose in 251 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: a separate place. And it was just amazing having somebody 252 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: at his level to do that with us and give 253 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: us this information. And Tracy, when I hear that what 254 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: this is doing and what y'all are able to do 255 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: with Wayne is quote a true story of how Houston's 256 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: deadliest murderer turned a kid into a killing machine. And 257 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: so again I think what the three of y'all are 258 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: doing for junior officers, rookie detectives, criminologists, crime sine investigators 259 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: like myself prosecutors is invaluable. 260 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 3: And I would add teachers and counselors and parents to 261 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 3: that list because they need to know the signals, the signs, 262 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 3: the things to look for, and the importance of listening 263 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 3: when kids are in trouble and need to say something. 264 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 3: Because Wayne did try talking, I think he should address 265 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 3: that he tried talking to somebody to help him and 266 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 3: nobody would. So I think Wayne, Wayne can probably speak 267 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 3: to that better than me. 268 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 2: Oh I spoke to four different adults. I actually committed 269 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 2: a burgery and turned myself into importance the next day, 270 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,719 Speaker 2: normal COMPETI but the po was is I was seeking 271 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 2: hell and I couldn't get it. And it's not just 272 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 2: the parents, with every adult in Every adult needs to 273 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 2: be aware that people who are dependent on their ad 274 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 2: bias or on their strength. I want to say weaker, 275 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 2: but it sounds bad. I don't need to be bad. 276 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 2: Those people may come to you. It may be somebody 277 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 2: that you never even thought about it for some reason, 278 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 2: trust you, and they're going to come to you and 279 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 2: ask for help, ask for help. And we need to 280 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 2: hear that. And not only we need to hear that, 281 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 2: but they've get prepared to do something about it. If 282 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 2: you can't, if we don't know what to do, call Prisball, 283 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 2: get somebody in. Uh, don't don't walk the way, don't 284 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 2: don't take time to think about it. Do something, because 285 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,959 Speaker 2: those people may never ever wrote the subject again. If 286 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,640 Speaker 2: you turn them away the first time, a young person 287 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 2: will not come to you again. I think anybody. Everybody 288 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 2: knows that. 289 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,959 Speaker 1: And whenne there's two things that really jumped out at 290 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: me in the book. Your mama talks about she didn't 291 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: even recognize you. That you used to be so well groomed, 292 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,239 Speaker 1: and you had all these plans and you were just 293 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:49,120 Speaker 1: moving forward to success, and then suddenly you let your 294 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: looks go. You didn't want to do anything. You stayed 295 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 1: locked up in your room. And there was even one 296 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: point you were so desperate to get away from this 297 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: life you tried to enlist in the arm. 298 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 2: Sir, I left town three times. Of all, I tried 299 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 2: to live town three times. I left Clown twice, and 300 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 2: tried to join the navy. Uh. And here here's the 301 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 2: funny buck. The reason I couldn't join the baby is 302 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 2: because I couldn't tell a lie. That's what company, That's 303 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 2: why I make me. I lied and said I had 304 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 2: never spoken any any any marijuana, and it ate at 305 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 2: me so bad that I went back said not a 306 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 2: lot about that and of course that that wouldn't take 307 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 2: me after that wasn't me. I was and I still am. 308 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 2: I'm kind of fastidious, like my hands to be dirty. 309 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 2: I got a handkerchief of a pocket all the time, 310 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 2: my hair was parting correctly, bully your area. That was 311 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 2: that two of who I was and I had. I 312 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 2: had to give it up. I didn't expect to live 313 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 2: in the eighteen I no longer thought I had a future. 314 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 2: I knew that at some point Dean or his organization 315 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 2: was gonna kill me. And if they didn't, you know, 316 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 2: if I went to the police, that were put so 317 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 2: any time I had sought hell for sort assistance. 318 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 1: I was reboth and Catherine. When you hear Wayne and 319 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: you realize he's talking about Dean Carroll, who in the 320 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: seventies was known as the candy Man killer, I mean, 321 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 1: he killed at least twenty eight people. This is the 322 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: man that a fourteen year old boy is trying to 323 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 1: figure out on his own how to get away from. 324 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, well he was actually fifteen and sixteen when he 325 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,160 Speaker 3: was with Coral. But I will say Wayne is the 326 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 3: only accomplice to a serial killer who killed the killer 327 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 3: to end it. I think and then also told the 328 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 3: police where the bodies were, and had he not done that, 329 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 3: they would have never found them. So we have to 330 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:53,360 Speaker 3: give him some credit for getting it done and then 331 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 3: making sure the police knew where to find these boys. 332 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 1: And Tracy, that's the thing. This, this man that you 333 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 1: have developed this relationship with, he was pushed, he was 334 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: tormented to the point that he had to stop this 335 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:13,199 Speaker 1: threat himself. 336 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 4: I think, what's going through my mind right now, and 337 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 4: I'm just being completely frank is you know, during this 338 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 4: entire process we've tried to think through you have twenty 339 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 4: eight families who really suffered the loss of a loved 340 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 4: one in the worst way, and part of that was 341 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 4: due to these murders. And so what we're trying to 342 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 4: do is separate that and have a look at what 343 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 4: Wayne experienced. We're not trying in any way to take 344 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 4: away from these families grief or to somehow make Wayne 345 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 4: seem like a traditional victim. But when you do look 346 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 4: at this in bass relief, you see that this is 347 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 4: an individual who could not have escaped vironment that, you know, 348 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 4: his whole kind of mindset is rewired to participate in 349 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 4: this until he does come to the point where he 350 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 4: can no longer stomach it. And I think that the 351 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 4: important part, going back to what Wayne said earlier in 352 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 4: this call, is that he was raised to be a gentleman. 353 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,199 Speaker 4: And you know, I think that we've always talked about 354 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 4: these last two potential victims, Tim Curley and Randa Williams. 355 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 4: And with Randa Williams a female in the room, and Wayne, 356 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 4: maybe you should speak to this. That completely changed Wayne's 357 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 4: way of looking at how he was going to proceed. 358 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 4: He had to protect this young lady. When you want 359 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 4: to talk about them. 360 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,719 Speaker 2: I'll that and and something else has been it's been 361 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 2: a fallacy that is me forever. But first, respiculus the female. 362 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 2: I was raised by h sincely by two women, my 363 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 2: mother and her mother. Uh And I was raised to 364 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 2: be a Southern gentleman to grow up and uh be 365 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,640 Speaker 2: uh father and a husband and a father and that's 366 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,679 Speaker 2: all I was step was the aspiration. Uh And and 367 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 2: I'm still like that. Uh So men, and you know 368 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 2: this may not be actually the correct thing way to pay, 369 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 2: but men took care of women what the southern gentleman 370 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:35,360 Speaker 2: did and and and when uh when he when being 371 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 2: one of her David had one her a woman. Uh, 372 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,719 Speaker 2: I just could that was that was the steps she bought. Uh. 373 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 2: But then he had Tim Curley in there. Him was 374 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 2: my friend. Uh Uh. What happened early on is the 375 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 2: second time being and then and this is the time 376 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,719 Speaker 2: when I found out that he had actually killed someone 377 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,239 Speaker 2: because he he jumped up, jumped on and tied up 378 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 2: a friend of mine. Uh, someone that I had known 379 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 2: for years and years that I've grown up with, a FRANKN. Garry. 380 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 2: And when I when I tried to argue about that, 381 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 2: Dean told me, I reaped to kill the last guy. 382 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 2: This is what I'm gonna do. This what you're already 383 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 2: involved in the murder, So you know, forget about that 384 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 2: you already are already involved. But I made up my 385 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 2: mind at that time that Dean would never kill another 386 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 2: one of my friends. Uh. And I don't mean to 387 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 2: listen who these other victims were, because they never, not 388 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 2: for a second, deserved any of that. H But they 389 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 2: want my friends. Kim was when he got kill and 390 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 2: Ronda together, he managed to just overload me to the 391 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 2: point where I was finally able to take action. 392 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: I can compartmentalize things, and I can talk about what 393 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 1: happened to you and the training and education that you're 394 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 1: going to be able to give people through this book 395 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 1: and through doctor Ramslin and Tracy Omen, because for the 396 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 1: last seven years, I have worked with a serial killer, 397 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: Carl Patten, the Flint River killer, whose daughter was murdered 398 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: in Atlanta. She was beheaded and dismembered, and it was 399 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 1: cold for twenty five years, and we worked on this 400 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,719 Speaker 1: thing for seven years. But Carl has a gift, and 401 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: that gift is to teach young detectives and young prosecutors, 402 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: and I have found it to be extraordinary. It is 403 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 1: separate for me what happened to his victims. I have 404 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: also talked with them. I've given them an open microphone 405 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 1: as well. They are part of the research, and they're 406 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: part of, you know, the overall understanding of Carl, because 407 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: I've got to understand him in order to understand the 408 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 1: victimology of his daughter when he gives that to me 409 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: only through letters. So I'm just saying again I know 410 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: from the book, and this is another quote, Doctor Ramslin 411 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 1: and Tracy Omen do not just, you know, diminish in 412 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 1: any way your responsibility. But you haven't either, Wayne. And 413 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: the day that they came to arrest Carl Patten. He 414 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 1: capt to it. He not only admitted to the four murders. 415 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: At the last hearing that took place, there were three 416 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 1: different jurisdictions for four murders. He admitted his involvement. He 417 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: admitted everything. And at the last day they were concluding 418 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 1: and Carl says, well, do y'all want to know about 419 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,439 Speaker 1: the fifth one or not? They had no idea there 420 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: was a fifth victim. So again that honesty that coming forward, Wayne, 421 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: you doing that again, It's gonna be a gift not 422 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 1: just for counselors and parents and teachers and prosecutors and detectives, 423 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: but like doctor Ranslin said, these parents that have got 424 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 1: to know these signs. So I'm gonna let you take 425 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: it back from here and talk a little bit about 426 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: your friend. When you're in that house and you know 427 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: what they want you to do, tell everybody what you did. 428 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 2: I knew exactly what was going to happen, and well 429 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 2: now exactly because Deane never kind of thing though before. 430 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 2: But I just could not allow that to happen. I 431 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 2: had went to to a lot of efforts to keep 432 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 2: my friends, the people that I that I grew up with, 433 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 2: the ones that I have to associate with Freddy majors 434 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 2: Kim curly the number of I mean, I had my 435 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 2: little brother who had decided that something was going on 436 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 2: with Call, and I needed to share. It's hard to 437 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,679 Speaker 2: make him stay away from me, so I had to 438 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 2: have fought hard to do that. But when he finally 439 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 2: had had got it, you know, and I just I 440 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 2: just couldn't say I couldn't Again, it sounds awful. It 441 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 2: is awful that I couldn't do something for the other people, 442 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 2: but I just did not have the dump shot of 443 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 2: the strength, for lack of better word, to stop Call. 444 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 2: He finally had to push me to a point where 445 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 2: where I would act, because I knew by acting, I 446 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 2: was giving up everything, and it's it's a hard decision 447 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 2: to make it seventeen years old. The only reason I'm 448 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 2: able to talk about this now is because I'm to 449 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 2: the point now where I want people to understand this. 450 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 2: I'm not trying to mitigate my responsibilities. I'm not trying 451 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 2: to get out of doing so fifty one plus here 452 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 2: is a prison. I'm not trying to get out of 453 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,959 Speaker 2: doing any time. But I want people to understand what happened. 454 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 2: I need people to understand what happened. I need you 455 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,719 Speaker 2: to understand what happened. If I hadn't been for doctor Ramsam, 456 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 2: I don't think I ever would a bunched it. 457 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: And that's another piece that I think is critical. I mean, 458 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: doctor Ramselin is able to help you, You're then able 459 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: to help doctor Ramseln and Tracy complete this book in 460 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: a way that's going to help most people. And both 461 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: of you, ladies are fact mattered folk. I mean, y'all 462 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: stay so focused on what the truth is. Y'all stay 463 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: in that lane all the time. You don't waiver. This 464 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: is not about being sensational. This is not about hey, 465 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: can you know we just blow people's mind. This is 466 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: we're going to give you information from the best source 467 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: you can get it from and deliver it in a 468 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: way that you can go back to it, highlight, make 469 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: notes in the margin. So again I want people to know. 470 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: I mean, doctor Ramselin, you spent five years with Dennis 471 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: Rader researching and writing his book, and Tracy you spent 472 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: ten years on the John Wayne Gacy project. Y'all get 473 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: connected to your people, You get connected to these topics 474 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: and these projects, but you do it in a way 475 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: that all of us can learn from it. 476 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's pretty important to stay immersed, to 477 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 3: do as a sustained study, to let the person show 478 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 3: themselves in various moods, responding to different things, getting a 479 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 3: full dimensional sense of them telling their story as fairly 480 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 3: as possible. I have to say Wayne was easier than Raider, 481 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 3: much more articulate, well read, easy to talk to, even 482 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 3: when he was going through some hard stuff with all 483 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 3: of this, when he was really soul searching. The fact 484 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 3: is he was soul searching in a way I don't 485 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 3: think Rater is capable of doing so. Coming off of 486 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 3: the Raider book and all the years I spent with him, 487 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 3: it was a lot more interesting to work with Wayne 488 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 3: because I think because it was more difficult to pin 489 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 3: down exactly how this was going to work, looking at 490 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 3: him as both the perpetrator and the victim for which 491 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 3: we have no language whatsoever to be able to really 492 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 3: speak about it, and I think his cooperation and frankly 493 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 3: it surprised me because he had tried telling things to 494 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 3: media and they had turned on him so many times 495 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 3: that I could not believe he was willing to trust me. 496 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 3: There was no reason for him to trust me, in particular, 497 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 3: especially after he'd seen what they'd done. Like there was 498 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 3: one talk show host who recorded Wayne for an hour 499 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 3: or so that's what he said. I'm not going to 500 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 3: name who it was. But then he wouldn't play it, 501 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 3: and he told his audience it was so horrific. He 502 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 3: just couldn't put that out to them. And I know 503 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 3: that that's not at all what he got, but it 504 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 3: was just his way of sensationalizing this and making it 505 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 3: seem as if he had been through such an ordeal 506 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 3: talking to Wayne. It was stupid. 507 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 2: About that. 508 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, So I thought Wayne was very, very courageous and 509 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 3: wanted to do it, and I was grateful that he 510 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 3: really put in the work. But it took hours and hours, 511 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 3: days and months to really work our way through this, 512 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 3: and I think that's what it takes, and not a 513 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 3: lot of researchers have that kind of of time and 514 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 3: ability to do that. 515 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: And you know, you want to talk about researching, Tracy 516 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: omen is kind of ridiculous in that area, and she because. 517 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 3: She's reading this researcher I have ever worked with it, right. 518 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: I mean reading through this book. I mean, all of 519 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,719 Speaker 1: a sudden Truman Capodi's name leaps off the page and 520 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: I'm like what. And then of all places she is 521 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 1: able to find notes that he wrote. They may have 522 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:33,479 Speaker 1: been undated, but where he's talking about certain things. And 523 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: she found these notes in the New York City Library. 524 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: She researched the daylight side of this thing. So, Tracy, 525 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: can you talk about that just a little bit. 526 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 4: The greatest piece of chemistry, you know, it happens when Catherine, 527 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 4: who is such an established author, has a great innate 528 00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:00,719 Speaker 4: sense of organization, and I have a lot of cure reosity, 529 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 4: and so I wanted to know everything I could about 530 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 4: this case because once I had an imagination for the 531 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 4: sex trafficking aspect of it. It's the same thing that 532 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 4: drove me through John Wayne Baisy. I absolutely hate sex 533 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:23,240 Speaker 4: trafficking and so driven to kind of get that across, 534 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 4: but also to kind of look at the more science 535 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 4: angle of grooming. Katherine organized all the details and said 536 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 4: I need this, and the minute she would say that, 537 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 4: let me get go into my files and find these things, 538 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 4: and her and I have tons of conversations very early 539 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 4: in the morning looking at you know, do we have 540 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 4: a hole here? We are we reaching is this kind 541 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 4: of coming off as a conspiracy theory rather than a 542 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 4: fact based argument. And so it was a lot of 543 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:03,800 Speaker 4: back and forth making sure that we didn't create a story, 544 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 4: but simply we corrected the narrative that had been wrong 545 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 4: all along. 546 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 1: No, it's stellar, Wayne. Again, We are so lucky to 547 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: have you. But I think one thing we really have 548 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:26,879 Speaker 1: not done yet is talk about who Coral was. Can 549 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 1: you just give maybe a brief history of who he was, 550 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: how he got the nickname Candy Man from the factory 551 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,399 Speaker 1: that he and his mama ran, and giving Candy a way. 552 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: Just give just a quick synopsis, and then what I 553 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 1: would like for you to do is give the best 554 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 1: advice you can for young people, if it's bullet points 555 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: or whatever. And then I'll come back to Catherine and 556 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: Tracy one second. But I'm going to give you the 557 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: floor right now if you would do that for me. 558 00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 2: First, I save it. Had Tracey not put all this together, 559 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:06,800 Speaker 2: I would never met doctor Emslin. Uh, this will never happen. Uh. 560 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,880 Speaker 2: The idea that there was actually UH an organization that 561 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 2: Carl was hooked up to seemed like it was never 562 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 2: going to come to light, even though it was one 563 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 2: of the first things I told the police. Uh. So 564 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 2: Tracy brought all this together. I don't want, I don't 565 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 2: want anybody did not know that, and I want to 566 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 2: thank her for that. Being called he's kind of an enigma. 567 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 2: I didn't really now that. I maybe in hindsight, I 568 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 2: didn't know that much about him. He loved Mission Impossible. 569 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 2: Everything was a Mission Impossible episode with him. Uh, but 570 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 2: he was also a geek and a nerd. He was 571 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 2: not socially adept. It was childlike in many many ways. 572 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,360 Speaker 2: I don't I don't want to know if there's really 573 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 2: a bold we could fit him in. 574 00:36:59,360 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 3: Now. 575 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,720 Speaker 2: What what I do think that young people should should 576 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 2: understand when we all think we're growing, no matter how 577 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 2: we are, is that an adult has absolutely nothing in 578 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 2: common with you. Nothing. I don't beat that. Young people 579 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 2: have absolutely nothing in common with an adult, And when 580 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 2: they spend time with you, when they make it seem 581 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 2: like they do have, it's all alive. They're thinking differently 582 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:36,919 Speaker 2: than we are. There, they're aims are different than ours. Uh, 583 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 2: They're everything's different. So it's all they don't have anything 584 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 2: in common with They might be interested in about moments 585 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 2: that might be bring to your family h but they're not. 586 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 2: They won't spend time, they're not wonna hang out with you. 587 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 2: And if they're won't hang out with you, than there's 588 00:37:54,640 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 2: stop uh over writing purpose behind it than other than that, 589 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,839 Speaker 2: I just know want young people to know that if 590 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 2: something seems wrong, that it probably hear is wrong and 591 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 2: there's a vote to get to fear. I wish that. 592 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 2: I wish the young people could understand it. You know, 593 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 2: when you do a good leading or something's not right, 594 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 2: it's not right. That's that's true, that's your your subconscious 595 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 2: pick it up on keating and you said, our actions 596 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 2: or sights that they can't fit into what it knows 597 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:35,799 Speaker 2: to be the correct propression of things. So if you 598 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 2: have if you fear the something wrong, if you think 599 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 2: that something's wrong, ask somebody the insistent that they listen 600 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 2: to you. Make whoever it is, making your dad, your mom, 601 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,760 Speaker 2: your aunt and your uncle or whoever, make them stop 602 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 2: and look at you and tell them that's if you 603 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:56,840 Speaker 2: want to be an adult. That's the one thing you 604 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 2: can do as an adult. Make your voice. That's about 605 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 2: all I. 606 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: Can recommend, y'all. I am a go to the source person. 607 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: I have worked cases where I went to the Imperial 608 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 1: Wizard of the Klan Johnny Lee Cleary. I have worked 609 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: murder for hires where I went to the mob hitman 610 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,399 Speaker 1: Frank Colatta. Y'all know that I've worked a case where 611 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: I went to the serial killer Carl Patten. And tonight, 612 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 1: y'all have been able to go to the source. Everything 613 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:37,839 Speaker 1: he just said was solid information. I think the three 614 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: of you are going to save a lot of lives. 615 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,439 Speaker 4: That would be our privilege. And I think the one 616 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 4: thing that I did pick up from Wayne along the 617 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 4: way is that Dean Coral was able to manipulate Wayne 618 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 4: because he felt culpable. And when you're that young, you 619 00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 4: aren't an equivalent to a mass murderer serial murderer. You 620 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 4: are an individual who is being taken advantage of in 621 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 4: a great power and balance. And if you if you 622 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 4: fear law enforcement, they are really truly the best recourse 623 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 4: if you do feel that something is wrong with the 624 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 4: relationship with an adult like this, because I think once 625 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,359 Speaker 4: Wayne was scared that he'd be persecuted, he wouldn't be 626 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 4: believed he would always be on the losing end. I 627 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,359 Speaker 4: think once he believed that Coral really had him. 628 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:33,880 Speaker 2: Actually, it's been proven to be true, isn't it. 629 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's you suffered the consequences. 630 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 2: The first thing I did wrong with Call is not 631 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 2: a murder. It was not a rape. It was a kidnapping. 632 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:48,280 Speaker 2: But but at that I had I had other reasons 633 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 2: that I thought I was doing it, but none of 634 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 2: those matters. I didn't and I did not. I was 635 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,759 Speaker 2: not happy about it, and it can't and uh, that's 636 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 2: what he jumped on front of gears. Uh and and 637 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 2: I hated that that was my friend and one. But 638 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 2: when I when I full called aside and said, no, 639 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:11,800 Speaker 2: we can't do this. You can't do this for the 640 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,320 Speaker 2: go haha, We'll laugh. It all all a joke anyway, 641 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,320 Speaker 2: It'll be all right. He told me, you're already I 642 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,719 Speaker 2: raped and murdered the other guy's all right to murder 643 00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:28,799 Speaker 2: the other guy. And you are in Paul and they 644 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 2: are going to put you in enough care. That was 645 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,759 Speaker 2: and that was my perception. I wasn't old enough to 646 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 2: understand that, I wasn't old enough to be responsible. I 647 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:43,920 Speaker 2: was wise enough to understand that no, no ignorant son 648 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,759 Speaker 2: of the law, and that's not the law means they're 649 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 2: law means ignorant of the law, not of the teach, 650 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 2: and not if I went to then if I had 651 00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 2: went to the police, who can't take me attention. But 652 00:41:57,840 --> 00:41:59,359 Speaker 2: I went to the police and they had they take 653 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:04,720 Speaker 2: me attention, meaning many people would not have died, and 654 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 2: that probably would be But I did feel responsible, and 655 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 2: I was responsible, totally responsible, totally, completely responsible. 656 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 3: I think this is a book that delves into an 657 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:23,880 Speaker 3: area of crime that most people don't really think about, 658 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 3: the nuances of the accomplished relationship and how to prevent it, 659 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,840 Speaker 3: especially for kids who don't know what they're getting into, 660 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 3: who don't know what they're being drawn into, and we 661 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,480 Speaker 3: need to do better to protect them. And I'm hoping 662 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:47,399 Speaker 3: this book will offer those tips and offer a good 663 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,920 Speaker 3: demonstration of how to listen when a kid is in trouble. 664 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's raising the issue way. 665 00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 1: And again, I cannot thank you enough for being here 666 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 1: and sharing your story. 667 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:07,920 Speaker 2: If I can help somebody, us food association, let us 668 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 2: some knolk streets. If I can help somebody, I would 669 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:11,919 Speaker 2: whatever I can. 670 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 1: That's powerful, y'all. I'm going to end Zone seven the 671 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,600 Speaker 1: way that I always do with a quote. I have 672 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,160 Speaker 1: to accept that any child, because that's what I was. 673 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:28,360 Speaker 1: Any child could be manipulated. Given the right buttons were pushed, 674 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 1: and Dean pushed all my buttons. Elmer Wayne Henley Jr. 675 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:39,880 Speaker 1: From the book The Serial Killers Apprentice by doctor Katherine 676 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:45,920 Speaker 1: Ranslin and Tracey Ullman. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is 677 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:46,560 Speaker 1: Zone seven.