1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: Body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. 2 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 2: I have a lot of friends and neighbors down here 3 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 2: in the Deep South that aren't much of a fan 4 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 2: of cool weather. I guess that, you know, we you 5 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 2: get used to an environment, you grow up in it, 6 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 2: and you just kind of adjust. Certainly, the environment is 7 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 2: not going to adjust to you. It's uh, that's foolishness 8 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 2: to think that. If you know, if you're in England, 9 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 2: for instance, and your shock that it's raining, then you know, 10 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 2: shame on you. But I don't mind the cold so 11 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 2: much because it gets so very hot and oppressive down 12 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 2: here that I'm not going to be one to complain 13 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 2: when the temperatures dropped below freezing down in these parts. 14 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 2: But I got to tell you, there's cold and then 15 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 2: there's cold. And anytime you start to talk about the Northeast, 16 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 2: in particular New England of our country, those people live 17 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 2: in a completely different world and they have in fact 18 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 2: adjusted to their environment. And sometimes the environment will tell 19 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 2: the tale of any kind of case. And the case 20 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 2: that we're going to examine today, it is a case 21 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 2: that has somewhat been dictated by environment. We've heard a 22 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 2: lot about it. We've heard about snow. We've heard about 23 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 2: freezing temperatures, but most of all, we've heard about a 24 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 2: police officer who was found dead or seemingly deceased in 25 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 2: the snow and there was no obvious cause of death 26 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 2: in the immediate Today we're going to talk about the 27 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 2: death of John O'Keefe, Boston police officer. I'm Josephcott Morgan 28 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 2: and this is Body Bats. It's good to be back 29 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 2: with you, Dave. I've had people asking me to cover 30 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 2: this case and to talk about it. I've appeared on 31 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 2: a variety of news programming. I never quite have enough 32 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 2: time to go through it because the material is sons. 33 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, as we are actually recording this, 34 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 2: i'd just been on air with my friend Ashley Banfield 35 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 2: on News Nation covering this case actually last night, and 36 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 2: I thought, you know, I thought, Dave and I just 37 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 2: need to hop on the talk go ahead and just 38 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 2: kind of discuss it and see what we could come 39 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,239 Speaker 2: up with, because I don't know. The Karen Reid case 40 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 2: now for loath these many months has been at the 41 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 2: top of the news. We keep hearing about it, and 42 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 2: it kind of comes and burst, you know, and the 43 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 2: case is about to go to trial or the trial 44 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:57,959 Speaker 2: is starting, and I thought that we would just take 45 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 2: time to you know, kind of talk about it a 46 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 2: little bit and talk about some of the evidence that 47 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 2: we know of at this moment in time. 48 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: You know, Joe. 49 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 3: It's the story is complicated because of the term former 50 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 3: that gets put into this because when I see two 51 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 3: people out on out on the town having drinks, and 52 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 3: in this case, Karen Reid a professional woman at forty two, 53 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 3: John O'Keeffe is a forty seven year old Boston police officer, 54 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 3: and they meet on the town having drinks that night together, 55 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 3: going to a couple different places and have several drinks 56 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 3: and then go to a friend's house where the party 57 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 3: is going to continue. They arrive together at like twelve 58 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 3: forty five and Karen Reid goes home. John O'Keefe goes 59 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 3: into the party. The next morning, when Karen Reid realizes 60 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 3: that John O'Keeffe has not made at home as was planned, 61 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 3: she starts calling around trying to find Hey, does anybody 62 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 3: know where John is? 63 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: He didn't come home. 64 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 3: By five point thirty, She's panicked and a couple of 65 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 3: her friends come over and they start trying to find 66 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 3: John they retrace footsteps, They go back to the place 67 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 3: where she dropped him off at twelve four five, and 68 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 3: lo and behold, John O'Keeffe is in the driveway and 69 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 3: he might have been out there all night long, they 70 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 3: don't know, but they call nine one one, and by 71 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 3: the time the first responder gets there, John O'Keefe is 72 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 3: cold to the touch and he's not breathing. 73 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 2: That's it. 74 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 3: Little after six in the morning. By seven fifty am, 75 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 3: John O'Keeffe is officially pronounced dead. Now here's where it 76 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 3: gets complicated. Were John O'Keeffe and Karen Reid dating, as 77 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 3: her mother said, were they it was their relationships in 78 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 3: a good spot or had they broken up? They were 79 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 3: former girlfriend boyfriend and the breakup was not a good one, 80 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 3: and it got worse when they drank many times. 81 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 2: That goes to motivation of what your interest is in 82 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 2: a particular case. You know how you come down on 83 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 2: either side, and that's the beauty. I gotta hold forth 84 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 2: here for just a moment about forensics. I don't particularly 85 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 2: care as a forensic scientist if someone is brought to justice. 86 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 2: That's not our job in forensics to make sure that 87 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 2: someone is brought to justice. Contrary to what people says. 88 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 2: Matter of fact, it's kind of a lazy statement because 89 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 2: no one really knows what that means. That's for prosecutors 90 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 2: to deal with, maybe even the police to a certain degree. 91 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 2: But as a forensic scientist, there's enough out there, there's 92 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 2: enough stuff for us to do. We try to examine 93 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 2: the science that's there, and the prosecutor or the defense 94 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 2: can use that data any way that they want to, 95 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 2: particularly in the world of medical examiner, you try to 96 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 2: be as unbiased as possible. We don't, really, in bad 97 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 2: pun here, have a dog in the fight, you know, 98 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 2: we really don't, because if we if we start looking 99 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:45,119 Speaker 2: at the first off, we're not going to be fair 100 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 2: whatever fair actually means, but we're not going to be 101 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 2: fair or unbiased is actually the better word. And we 102 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 2: cannot go in with, you know, these kind of conclusions 103 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 2: that we've already made our mind up because it's going 104 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 2: to cloud our judgment. But let's run down the list. 105 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: I just got to kind of throw this list out 106 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 2: to you. I was thinking about this and the types 107 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 2: of evidence that we know about at this point in 108 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 2: time from a forensic standpoint. Okay, they've talked about DNA. 109 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 2: So we've got DNA. We have got obviously forensic pathology 110 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 2: because we're talking about pretty severe head trauma here as 111 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 2: a matter of fact, market head trauma. I think personally, 112 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: there's going to be potentially hair and fiber evidence. We've 113 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 2: also got a lot of digital evidence. As it applies 114 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 2: in this case, you're going to have blood evidence, which 115 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 2: goes to trace to a certain degree. But you know 116 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 2: where blood and tissue are transferred onto something, either it'll 117 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 2: be present or there'll be an absence of it. And 118 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 2: just those points along that continuum alone is enough to 119 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 2: spend hours and hours trying to assess this case because 120 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 2: there's so much of it, very dense case that the 121 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 2: prosecution is bringing forward, but they've drawn their own conclusions 122 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 2: at this point, Tom, and that's okay, that's what prosecution does. 123 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 2: But the defense is offering up alternative things. Oh and 124 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 2: by the way, did I mention we're talking about a 125 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 2: little bit of veterinary forensics as well, So that adds 126 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 2: another level. What a bizarre turn of events, you know, 127 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 2: relative to this dog, because that's something that we don't 128 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 2: typically encounter. I mean we do, and I have work 129 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 2: cases involving animals. But it's just that's just one more 130 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 2: thing that's kind of thrown into this gumbo, if you will, 131 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 2: and the pot continues to be stirred over and over 132 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 2: and over again. 133 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 3: You know, Joe, you mentioned vet, Well, maybe we should 134 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 3: mention conspiracy theory. The prosecution claims Karen Reid got into 135 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 3: a drunken brawl with John O'Keeffe, and when he got 136 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 3: out of the car to go into a house party, 137 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 3: she was able to back over O'Kelly, leaving him to 138 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 3: die in a blizzard. Karen Reid's defense team is talking 139 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 3: about the injuries on O'Keeffe, and in particular his arm. 140 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 3: The defense claims O'Keeffe went into the house party after 141 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 3: Reid dropped him off, but something bad happened and O'Keefe 142 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 3: was beaten within an inch of his life and thrown outside. 143 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 3: And based on the scratches on O'Keefe's arm, the defense 144 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 3: says he had been scratched by a dog named Chloe 145 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 3: that was owned by the residence of the home where 146 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 3: the house party took place. The problem with comparing the 147 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 3: dog Chloe's claws to the scratches on O'Keefe's arm Chloe 148 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 3: was re homed to a family out of state after 149 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 3: the death of O'Keefe. Now, Karen Reid's defense deny she 150 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 3: killed O'Keefe. They claim she's being framed by people in 151 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 3: the suburban party house. But this is not some social 152 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 3: media theory. There's an official, ongoing federal probe of apostible 153 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 3: police cover up that has turned into a parallel investigation 154 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 3: to the murder. Reid's highest profile supporters believe that someone 155 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 3: in the house beat o'keef, badly dumped his body on 156 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 3: the snow covered lawn outside, and then framed Karen Reeve 157 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 3: for his murder. Their take is a complicated conspiracy that 158 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:09,199 Speaker 3: involves the partygoers, Canton police, the state police, and the 159 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 3: DA's office. An autopsy report autopsy that was conducted by 160 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 3: the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner said, quote the 161 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 3: doctor opine that the extensive injuries to his head likely 162 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 3: rendered mister O'Keefe incapacitated. The doctor further opine that upon 163 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 3: viewing mister O'Keeffe's injuries and her examination of the body, 164 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 3: she observed no signs of mister O'Keeffe being involved in 165 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 3: any type of physical altercation or fight. 166 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 2: The language is going to ebb and flow with not 167 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 2: just the peripherals that are surrounding a case, you know, 168 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 2: family members and people that take interest. It's going to 169 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 2: you know, that flow is going to change with the 170 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 2: media and the narrative that they put out there. But 171 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 2: I can tell you this in this particular case, when 172 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 2: this thing does come to trial, we have this parade 173 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 2: of forensic experts that are going to be on the stand. 174 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 2: Hopefully there will be a bit more clarity. Dave would 175 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 2: have I said before for us in forensics, and time 176 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 2: is the coin of the realm, as they say, it 177 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: is the currency in which we deal. People talk about 178 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 2: the science, and yes, that is important, but we have 179 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 2: to understand the progression of events as it applies to 180 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 2: the victim. And the victim here is a Boston Police 181 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 2: officer that has sustained massive head trauma and also, by 182 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 2: the way, has had elements of hypothermia as well, And 183 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 2: so we think about all that all involves time, and 184 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 2: I think that it's really important for us to try 185 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 2: to talk about that a little bit and see if 186 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 2: we can add some nuance to it and try to 187 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 2: understand what exactly went down. 188 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 3: I do you agree, it's it does matter. This timeline 189 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 3: spells out everything because there are a number of accusations 190 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 3: about the condition of the people involved at the time 191 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 3: that whatever happened happened. So here we go. Seven thirty 192 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 3: seven pm, January twenty eighth, twenty twenty two, O'Keefe is 193 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 3: seen on surveillance camera video arriving at cf McCarthy's in Campton. 194 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 3: C F McCarthy's, a bar slash restaurant. Okay eight fifty one. 195 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 3: Reid is seen on video arriving. So she arrives, you know, 196 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 3: thirty minutes he's there having a couple of cocktails. She arrives, well, 197 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 3: actually it's an hour and a half later, eight fifty one. 198 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 3: She rides okay eight fifty eight. Bartender hands Karen read 199 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 3: a glass containing clear liquid with a line in it 200 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 3: nine to fifteen, Seventeen minutes after the first one, bartender 201 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 3: hands read another glass five minut and it's after that 202 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 3: the bartender hands read another glass. Thirteen minutes after that one, 203 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 3: the bartender hands read another glass. At nine fifty seven, 204 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 3: the bartender hands read another glass and a shot glass 205 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 3: with clear liquid in it. At ten twenty two, the 206 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 3: bartender hands read another glass. Now we don't know exactly 207 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 3: what's in these glasses each time, but based on the 208 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 3: location that is taking place, based on you know, have 209 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 3: you ever needed to have glasses of water back to 210 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 3: back to back to back to back like that, and 211 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 3: unless you had just run a marathon. 212 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: No, I have. 213 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 2: Had instances though, you know where I've been out vibing 214 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 2: in the evening and the next morning my body is 215 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 2: spreading after water y at that point, Tom, because it 216 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 2: dehydrates you to that point. But yeah, and you know, 217 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 2: you're talking about a bartender that makes their living selling drinks, 218 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 2: and he's going to take his time to pass a 219 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 2: drink you know, of water to her every single every 220 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 2: single time. Yeah, it's kind of that's a kind of. 221 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 3: What appears to me, and it is with some experience 222 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 3: I speak in my opinion. She shows up at the 223 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 3: bar much later than o'keef hour and fifteen minutes almost, 224 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 3: or hour and twenty minutes almost, and so she gets there, 225 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 3: it's time to play catch up. Have you ever done 226 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 3: this when you're out drinking with print? I got to 227 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 3: catch up. So that's what it appears she's doing. Eight 228 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 3: fifty eight nine fifteen nine twenty nine thirty three, nine 229 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,079 Speaker 3: fifty seven, and then it slows down. Okay, at in 230 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 3: that hour between eight fifty eight and nine fifty seven, 231 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 3: in fifty nine minutes, she has served one, two, three, 232 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 3: four five cocktails Anna shot. Then there's a twenty five 233 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 3: minute break before she gets another one at ten twenty two. 234 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 3: So now back to the bar the timeline ten forty 235 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 3: The video shows Read and O'Keefe leaving the bar. Read 236 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 3: is seen holding her latest drink in her right hand 237 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 3: as they exit ten fifty four. Fourteen minutes later, o'keefan 238 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 3: Reid are seen on video arriving at the Waterfall Bar 239 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 3: and grill and can together. I would like to know 240 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 3: what the timeline of drinks for O'Keefe would be back 241 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 3: at McCarthy's, to know the condition of both of them. 242 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would. And look jumping ahead a wee bit 243 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 2: to the next morning. Reeve's blood is actually drawn at 244 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 2: Good Samaritan Medical Center and a forensic toxicologist you know 245 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 2: later talked about where her blood alcohol level would have 246 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 2: been prior to you know, when they took the blood. 247 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 2: Still at that point and this is you know, some 248 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 2: hours later, they were able to determine that her BA 249 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 2: was point zero seven to point zero eight at that 250 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 2: point in time, and you would have had a time 251 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 2: for alcohol to metabolize. The way this happens is as 252 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 2: the alcohol is beginning to burn off in the system, 253 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 2: you can go back and render an opinion a forensic 254 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: toxicologist can about what the blood alcohol level would have 255 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 2: been like earlier. So if you if you've gone this 256 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 2: period of time, you still have this amount of alcohol 257 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 2: in your system. Looking back in time, toxicologists came up 258 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 2: with the idea that perhaps when this all went down, 259 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 2: which is like twelve forty five am, her BA would 260 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 2: have been like zero point one point three two point 261 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 2: two nine and Dave. At that level, you're what some 262 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 2: people call knee walking drunk at that point in time 263 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 2: that it's hard to really keep your senses. 264 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 3: And when we look at this in total, again we're 265 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 3: talking about Karen Reid's blood alcohol level and she is 266 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 3: with her boyfriend at the time, O'Keefe back to the bar. Okay, 267 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 3: they leave the bar. They're together, o'keefan Reid leave to 268 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 3: go to a house party. They call it a house party. 269 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 3: It might you know, when you gather together with adults 270 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 3: and you're having cocktails or whatever late at night at 271 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 3: I don't cannsidered that the house party like we do 272 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 3: when there's a bunch of young people that are just 273 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 3: raging at a house with the music blaring and everything else. 274 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: I look at it, but I don't know if she'd 275 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: call it. 276 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 3: They're having a party at somebody's house, so it's a 277 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 3: house party anyway, Hey out drink then. 278 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: So they get there. 279 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 3: Now here's the catch, all right, there are text messages 280 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 3: from O'Keefe trying to get directions to this house party. 281 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: What's the address? 282 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 3: And I want to get this right because it has 283 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 3: everything to do with what she's being charged with now. 284 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 3: At twelve eleven am, the video shows O'Keefe carrying a 285 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 3: glass meeting up with Reid. The two walk together toward 286 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 3: Washington Street. O'Keefe sends a text message to a friend 287 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 3: at twelve fourteen am, saying where to. He receives a 288 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 3: text with an address on Fairview Road from the sister 289 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 3: of the homeowner. Twelve fifteen. A vehicle consistent with reads 290 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 3: SUV is seen on video traveling past Cantontown Library twelve seventeen. 291 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 3: Large black suv seen on video traveling past Temple Beth 292 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 3: Abraham toward the intersection of Washington and Denham Streets. You 293 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 3: and I have talked many times about video today. It's 294 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 3: amazing when somebody says I did XYZ. They can find 295 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 3: out if you're telling the truth, if you're in a 296 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 3: metropolitan area. 297 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 2: Oh my lord. Yeah. And you marry it up again 298 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 2: with the tom Lawn and it gives you an idea. 299 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 2: You know, between CCTV and on phones, it's almost impossible 300 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 2: to escape the view of you know, these cameras and 301 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 2: also what's pinging on. 302 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 3: And so they're driving together trying to find this place. 303 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 3: Okeith gets the look confused, so they call to get 304 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,479 Speaker 3: better directions to the house. At twelve thirty one, the 305 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 3: homeowner sister sends O'Keefe a text message just saying hello. 306 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 3: At twelve forty she sends another message saying, pull up 307 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 3: behind me. She's referencing her vehicle in the driveway at 308 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 3: the house. She said that she subsequently watched the black 309 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 3: suv move from its initial place where it had stopped 310 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 3: near the driveway, to the far left side of the property, 311 00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 3: near a flagpole and a fire hydrant and where the 312 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 3: body was subsequently found. Picture this in your head for 313 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 3: just a minute of what we're talking about in terms 314 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 3: of where the car is, where she's being told to park. 315 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 3: Twelve forty five sends another message to O'Keefe. It's just 316 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 3: says low. She observes the black suv drive away. Twelve 317 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 3: forty five. She observes the black suv driving away. 318 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: Now. 319 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 3: Between one thirty am and two am, another guest at 320 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 3: the Fairview Road home gets the ride home and indicated 321 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 3: that she thought she saw something she described as a 322 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 3: dark object in the snow by the flagpole, but could 323 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 3: not determine what it was. Again, I want to go 324 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 3: back here real quick, Joe. Twelve forty am. Woman inside 325 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 3: the house is texting O'Keefe outside, and then twelve forty 326 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 3: five am sends another message, what as the black suv. 327 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: Is leaving right? All right? 328 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 2: Yeah? 329 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: Five minute window there? 330 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know exactly, and and every single minute in 331 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 2: this case counts. That's why I wanted to go over 332 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:03,679 Speaker 2: this too. 333 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 3: So we've got to pullin out now. At twelve forty five, 334 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 3: we've got some time between one thirty am and two am. 335 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,479 Speaker 3: Somebody seeing a dark object in the dry in that spot, 336 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 3: I'd go to four fifty three am, the sister of 337 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 3: the Fairview Road owed her home, receives a call from 338 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 3: Karen Reid, who is looking for O'Keefe and instructed O'Keefe's 339 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 3: niece to place the call. She tells Reed that she 340 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 3: last saw O'Keefe at the Waterfall Bar and saw them 341 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 3: leave together. Five am, Karen Reid calls a second friend, 342 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 3: stating that O'Keefe did not come home and she was worried. 343 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 3: According to the prosecutors, Now, Reid also said, I wonder 344 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 3: if he's dead. It's snowing. He got hit by a plow. 345 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 3: We need to remind everyone, as you started off with 346 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 3: at the very beginning about the weather, blizzard conditions were existing. 347 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 3: That means freezing cold temperatures and a lot of snow, right. 348 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, And when you think about it, it would 349 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 2: be And here's to you know this. You know the 350 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 2: witness earlier that thought, you know that they saw something 351 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 2: dark in the yard adjacent to the flagpole. If you're 352 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 2: in these kind of I don't know if this would 353 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 2: be classified necessarily as a wide out, but when you 354 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 2: begin to talk about blizzard conditions, certainly to the less 355 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 2: educated among us, like myself, I would think that your 356 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 2: vision would be obscured greatly as well. You can't pick 357 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 2: out detail in that kind of environment, particularly at night. 358 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 3: You didn't even think about that because it's dark as 359 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 3: a night. So maybe there's some lights outside, you got 360 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 3: the headlights of the car or what have you. But yeah, 361 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,360 Speaker 3: the headlights of the car are getting all snow in them. 362 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 3: It's difficult to see ten feet in front of your 363 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,199 Speaker 3: car anyway. All right, so here we are. It's five 364 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 3: point fifteen in the morning. All right, let me go 365 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 3: to five eleven because we have her comment at five 366 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 3: am about getting hit by a snowplow. A lot of 367 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 3: people will say that's somebody trying to set up an 368 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 3: alibi and a different story of what happened. Surveillance camera 369 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 3: eleven five to eleven AM Library surveillance video captures large 370 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 3: black suv turning on to Washington Street towards the waterfall 371 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 3: five point fifteen am. The same camera captures the suv 372 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 3: traveling in the opposite direction toward the temple five eighteen am. 373 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 3: A camera at the temple captures the suv passing five 374 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 3: thirty am. Reid and the friend arrive at the home 375 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 3: of the sister of the Fairview Road resident, where she 376 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 3: is described as hysterical. Karen Reid is One of the 377 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 3: women drove Reid back to O'Keefe's house, while the other 378 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 3: followed in her own vehicle. During that drive, she told 379 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 3: investigators that Karen Reid said, quote, could I have hit him? 380 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 3: Did I hit him? And told her about a cracked 381 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,199 Speaker 3: tail light on the black suv. That's a lot of 382 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 3: info right there, Joseph Scott Morgan. 383 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 2: Boy, it is. And you know the thing about it 384 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 2: is you've got all of these different perspectives on it 385 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 2: relative to what these eye and ear witnesses are providing. 386 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 2: And when during the course of this trial you're going 387 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 2: to have a bevy of people that are going to 388 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 2: come across this the stand that will offer testimony that 389 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 2: are going to get into this kind of granular detail 390 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 2: about time and where's that going to leave the jury 391 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 2: because it's very complex, and what gets lost in all 392 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 2: of this, I think is when you begin to consider, 393 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 2: at the heart of it, what's going on with this 394 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 2: man who is obviously missing. She's distressed over it. We 395 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 2: don't know what the interaction truly was, because you know, 396 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 2: you have no idea what was going on inside of 397 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 2: that vehicle where and what happened predating that, you know, 398 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 2: as far as fights that were going on, or was 399 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 2: there any kind of animosity here, anything that would have 400 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 2: driven one individual to try to end the life of 401 00:22:51,400 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 2: another individual with car. When we think about violent deaths 402 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 2: in America, I think most people their default position is 403 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 2: going to be firearms related deaths. And you know, the 404 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 2: most common type of violent death in America is related 405 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 2: to motor vehicle accidents. So in the medical legal world, 406 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,679 Speaker 2: we work a lot of these cases, probably more so 407 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 2: than any anything else that we covered that's a violent event. 408 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 2: And without fail, the underlying actual cause of death in 409 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 2: motor vehicle accidents is in fact blunt force trauma. And 410 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 2: of course, Dave, that's what we're dealing with with mister 411 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 2: O'Keeffe death here, is that this is what they have 412 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 2: come to conclude at this point that his death is 413 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 2: in fact massive blunt force trauma to his head and also, uh, 414 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 2: you know, he's got these peripheral injuries to his arms. 415 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 3: And this case is going to turn on what the 416 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 3: autopsy says and what the physical evidence. 417 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 2: Says, yeah, yeah, and that is that is injury because 418 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 2: we're talking about sorry, yeah, no, no, no, no, The biggest, 419 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 2: the biggest thing that we're talking about is this. He's 420 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 2: got what they're describing as a two inch gash on 421 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 2: the back of Big Joe. That's a that is a 422 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 2: big gash. Yeah, two inches. And you and I both 423 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 2: have had babies, and you know how age. 424 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 3: I have to point out to Joseph Scott Morgan and 425 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 3: I did not physically have children come out of our bodies. 426 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 2: But you know, the the reality is is that when 427 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 2: you're you're raising kids, it's they will crack their heads 428 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 2: open and it's one of the most terrifying things in 429 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 2: the world as a parent because you see how much 430 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 2: blood there is. It does and you're thinking, oh my god, 431 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:11,880 Speaker 2: my child. 432 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: But you know, you will swear filmed bad. It is bad. 433 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 2: But we have to consider something else that has been 434 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 2: noted about mister O'Keefe's remains when they were examined. He's 435 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 2: got bilateral black eyes, which you know we talked about before. 436 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 2: This is indicative of skull fracture. And I think that 437 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 2: he's got extensive skull fracturing. So here's one idea I 438 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 2: want to throw out to you to day. We talked 439 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 2: about the amount of blood that that is absent from 440 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,719 Speaker 2: the scene. Some people have described it as little or 441 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 2: no blood, and again we have to also say that 442 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 2: this is during a snowstorm, so I don't know how 443 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 2: deep they dug because working a crime scene in the 444 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 2: snow is complete, depletely different than what most people have 445 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 2: ever envisioned. Based upon the fact that he has sustained 446 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 2: this trauma to his head. Remember the raccoon eyes. I 447 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 2: think that there's a fractured nose, as a fractured skull, 448 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 2: there's going to be a lot of internal bleeding here. 449 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 2: And as a matter of fact, when you have a 450 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 2: closed head injury, I've actually been present for autopsies and 451 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 2: have removed brains at autopsy where there's so much blood 452 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 2: contained within what we refer to it cranial vault that 453 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 2: sometimes it'll come pouring out and other times you'll see 454 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 2: these big coagulated masses that are focused on one side 455 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 2: of the brain, like if you've got if you think 456 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 2: about the back of his head where his head actually 457 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 2: impacted either a surface or was impacted by something else 458 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 2: in that little area which is posterior. I would expect 459 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 2: to see like this huge mass of blood that's probably 460 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 2: coagulated and resting over the surface of what we refer 461 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 2: to as the dura, which is the sack that the 462 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 2: brain is actually contained in, and that's called an epidural hemorrhage. 463 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 2: I would expect to see that. I'd also expect to 464 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 2: see probably some little vessels that are torn in the 465 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 2: brain itself, where you'll have bleeding within the sack and 466 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 2: maybe contained within the brain itself, which is what's referred 467 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 2: to as subarachnoid hemorrhage. So you're going to have this 468 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 2: huge mass of blood that has begun to leach out 469 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 2: the underlying probably floor, the skull has been fractured, and 470 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 2: they're going to talk a lot about this in the case, 471 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 2: this is a tremendous amount of trauma, and yes, this 472 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 2: can happen. I know that people wonder can this happen 473 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 2: from a single blow, particularly if you're talking about a 474 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 2: motor vehicle that's traveling at a sufficient rate to generate 475 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 2: the kind of energy, because this is a transfer of 476 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 2: energy where you have a car, which is what the 477 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 2: prosecution is stating, where a car literally strikes an individual. 478 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 2: Here's the problem. When we work, we're referred to as 479 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 2: pedestrian versus motor vehicle cases. That is, you've got a 480 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 2: person that is not contained within the structure of another 481 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 2: motor vehicle. They're just there, you know, as a person 482 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 2: standing outside of the vehicle, and they are struck. We 483 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 2: look for something called bumper marks, Dave, because most of 484 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 2: the time you're going to be struck either with the 485 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 2: rear of the vehicle and that bumper, or you'll be 486 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 2: struck in the ford area. Now, many times when you 487 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 2: get a presentation of bumper marks, it's going to look 488 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,479 Speaker 2: like it'll have kind of a linear structure to it, 489 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 2: where if you think about the thighs of the knees 490 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 2: that somebody's just standing in the middle of the street, 491 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 2: you'll get this kind of bilinear because you've got the 492 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,719 Speaker 2: margins of the bumper, and it creates a hemorrhage. It 493 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 2: also creates an abrasion. We're not seeing that here. We're 494 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 2: not seeing that, and so I really wonder if we 495 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 2: just kind of go with this idea that he was 496 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 2: backed up over which the prosecution is putting forward. His 497 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 2: posture is very important here because we're talking about cracktail, 498 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 2: like we're talking about an individual that has struck his head. 499 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 2: I really wonder, Dave, if they're going to discuss whether 500 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 2: or not he was standing or seated, and if he 501 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 2: has been drinking, there's a high probability that he could 502 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 2: have been seated or crouched behind this vehicle, and this 503 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 2: would explain the absence. They haven't talked about a bumper, Mark. 504 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 2: I haven't heard anything about that at this point, because 505 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 2: you have to have that point of contact where the 506 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 2: bumper is actually meeting up with the body with the 507 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 2: person and then generating enough energy to throw his head 508 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 2: back so that he impacts onto the ground. And that's 509 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 2: something that they're really going to dig into, I think, 510 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 2: And well. 511 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 3: We've got a dead man and two different stories. The 512 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 3: prosecution claims that Karen he got into it an argument 513 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 3: with her boyfriend inside her black suv, her Lexus, in 514 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 3: the driveway and it became so violent that he gets 515 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 3: out of the car and she runs him over and 516 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 3: takes off the defenses, claiming that they were fine. They'd 517 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 3: gone out for drinks. He wanted to go to this 518 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,239 Speaker 3: other party at a friend's house, and she dropped him 519 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 3: off there and went on about her merry way, and 520 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 3: apparently something bad went wrong in there, and a bunch 521 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 3: of cops all got together and decided, after beating him 522 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 3: up sufficiently, to take him out in the driveway and 523 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 3: leave him out there, and then framed Karen Reid for murder. 524 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 3: Those are the two different That's what we're going to 525 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 3: court on. Either either he was beaten up by his 526 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 3: friends and left out in a blizzard to die, or 527 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 3: he was run over by his now what they call 528 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 3: former girlfriend and left to die. 529 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. 530 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 2: Well let's throw one one added little bonus in here too, 531 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 2: in this environment, in this house day and that's. 532 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: To ask you, where does the dog fit into this? Joe? 533 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, Because what they're saying is there's this photo that's 534 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 2: floating about. The defense has presented in the proceedings where 535 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 2: we see this image of mister Keith's arm and Dave 536 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 2: those he's got these kind of straighted marks on his 537 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,959 Speaker 2: arm and they're very kind of uniformed and linear, and 538 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 2: they they the defense is saying that this is evidence 539 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 2: of a dog attack. And Okay, I mean, I'll go 540 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 2: down that road with you. They're talking about potential puncture marks, 541 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 2: these sorts of things. And I have worked, and I 542 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 2: have a lot of friends that have worked dog attacks. Unfortunately, 543 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 2: I have had cases where children have been killed by dogs. 544 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 2: Hate those cases, but those injuries are very, very specific. 545 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 2: So here's what I'm going to be very interested in hearing. 546 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 2: I want to know if the defense in this particular 547 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 2: case is going to hire and the people do in 548 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 2: fact exists Dave Hire a veterinarian that specializes in forensics. 549 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 2: Because they can talk about the light mark of a dog. Now, now, 550 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 2: for whatever reason, this dog no longer exists. They say 551 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 2: that the what's the term that's so popular now the 552 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 2: animal was re holmed, And I've heard other people say 553 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 2: that the animal is no longer with us. And look, 554 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 2: you know that dog is gone and there's no way 555 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 2: that you're going to be able to get that dog. 556 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 2: And you know if you could, if the dog is deceased, 557 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 2: was it incinerated or was the dog buried in somebody's 558 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 2: backyard or was it trash or you know what happened, 559 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 2: because you know the kind of the forensic scientist in me. 560 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,479 Speaker 2: I would want to render down the dog's skull and 561 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 2: have a forensic veterinarian. Really take a look at these 562 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 2: teeth and if you could compare them to the injuries 563 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 2: that he has on his arm, But I don't really 564 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 2: see it. And look, all of this is this pales 565 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 2: in one area that I'm more curious about than inn. 566 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: Please tell me it's about the car. 567 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 2: We'll get to the car. But here's the thing that 568 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 2: no one seems to be talking about. And forensic investigations 569 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 2: are layered, okay, and in this case, I literally mean that, 570 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 2: because if you've got these insults to mister O'Keeffe's arm, 571 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 2: where's his clothing? Because the clothing is actually going to 572 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 2: be the tail of the tape, if you will. So 573 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 2: you're telling me, in blizzard conditions, even if this man 574 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 2: wore a jacket into the home, you're going to tell 575 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 2: me he stood around with his jacket on. Wouldn't there 576 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 2: be evidence of tears in the jacket, And tears that 577 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 2: are generated from the underside of a motor vehicle compared 578 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 2: to what an animal would do to a jacket, looks 579 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 2: completely different. Let's you say that he took his jacket 580 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 2: off in the house and he's or you telling me 581 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 2: he's walking around a t shirt in this weather, or 582 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,800 Speaker 2: he doesn't have a sweater on or a long sleeved 583 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 2: shirt in this particular type of brutal weather. I think 584 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 2: that he probably would. Well, what's the status of the shirt? 585 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 2: Are there tears in the shirt? Did they look for 586 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 2: any kind of transfer of evidence that would be consistent 587 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,879 Speaker 2: with two things here? And we're exploring both possibilities here. 588 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 2: Is there a potential that there could have been animal 589 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 2: hair or saliva on that shirt adjacent to the tears, 590 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,959 Speaker 2: because what you're saying is that the defense is saying 591 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 2: that these are puncture wounds on the arm. They've talked 592 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 2: about puncture wounds and maybe they're scratches. Well, did the 593 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 2: dog leave behind any kind of evidence of that? And 594 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 2: if that's not the case, then if he was hit 595 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 2: by a car and his arm went up in a 596 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 2: defensive position, we talked about defensive wounds, okay, you know 597 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 2: with knife attacks and that sort of thing. If he 598 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 2: went up trying to you know, thwart this blow that 599 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 2: he saw coming, you would actually get road debris like 600 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 2: grease and grime. We see this all the time and 601 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,760 Speaker 2: rollover injuries with cars that would transfer onto the clothing. 602 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 2: And it stands out I mean it's it's very visible 603 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 2: if the car actually went over his body. Now, if 604 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,919 Speaker 2: it's just a straight on like strike, you know, where 605 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 2: his head or another portion of his body hits that 606 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 2: tail light that they say was fractured, and then he 607 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 2: slams into the ground. I would be very interested to see, well, 608 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 2: what evidence is there on the clothing relative to any 609 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,439 Speaker 2: kind of road dirt, grime, grease, anything else that might 610 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 2: go as an indication the clothing is going to play 611 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 2: a big role in us. And to this point, I 612 00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 2: haven't really heard anybody talking much about it. 613 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've seen you when we were talking about this. 614 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 3: I had to change a tire on the side of 615 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 3: the interstate a couple of weeks ago, and just dealing 616 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 3: with just the tire lug nuts and just this one, 617 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 3: I was filthy, and yeah, I didn't. 618 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:13,320 Speaker 1: Crawl up underneath. 619 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 3: I've actually, you know, no gotten filthy from head to toe. 620 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 3: I couldn't even stop anywhere to wash off because I 621 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,800 Speaker 3: was that dirty. I just wanted to, you know, bottom 622 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 3: line here, what condition are his clothes in and why 623 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 3: haven't we seen these yet? Because either he was beaten 624 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 3: by his fellow officers inside the house and drug out 625 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 3: and dropped in the driveway to die in a blizzard, 626 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 3: or his girlfriend got into a fight with him and 627 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 3: while he was maybe crouched behind the car been overthrown up. 628 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: I don't know. 629 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,320 Speaker 3: She backs over him hard enough, gets enough speed going 630 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 3: that she can hit him harder to break that tail light, which, 631 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,240 Speaker 3: to be honest with you, Joe, not an easy feat 632 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 3: tail lights. 633 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:51,720 Speaker 1: And they don't break easy. 634 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, they don't. And it's high impact plastic. There's 635 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,879 Speaker 2: a reason they're made that way, Dave, so that they 636 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 2: can you know, we can travel in our vehicles, you know, 637 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 2: through through the world that we that we dwell and 638 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 2: it's not going to come apart even with the slightest bump. 639 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 2: There's a reason it's called it's thicker than most plastics 640 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 2: that are out there. It's one of the reasons. That's 641 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 2: one of the things that makes it high impact plastic. 642 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,360 Speaker 2: And they're talking about two separate lenses here. You've got 643 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,240 Speaker 2: the kind of red color that's fractured, and you've also 644 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 2: got the clear lens that's fractured. I think that goes 645 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 2: to backup lights, uh, and that that lens is actually 646 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 2: both those are actually fractured. There it is claimed that 647 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 2: DNA from mister O'Keeffe is found in this collection of 648 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,760 Speaker 2: of of fragments. Here's another piece to this that everyone 649 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 2: should be keeping their eye on in this particular case, 650 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 2: because we're going to have you're going to hear trace evidence. 651 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 2: Uh scientists, they're going to be getting up on the 652 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 2: stand and these people are or fantastic when it comes 653 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 2: to plastics and glass. They will restructure this thing and 654 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,879 Speaker 2: they'll talk about points of impact. One of the things 655 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 2: that you see with fracturing of glass in particular, but 656 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 2: to a lesser degree with plastics, is you'll get this 657 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 2: kind of bullseye spiderweb pattern that kind of extends out 658 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 2: and it fractures in different ways. And they have ways 659 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 2: they measure all this and they can talk about velocity 660 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 2: and all that, and so we'll hear from those individuals here. 661 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:33,279 Speaker 2: One other issue here as well is that there is 662 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 2: actual literal glass that they're saying came from a potential 663 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 2: fractured cocktail class that he may have had in his hand. 664 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 2: That this has been found around the area as well. 665 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 2: So you've got this dynamic of fracturing that's going on 666 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:54,439 Speaker 2: not just with the victim, with his skull. But we've 667 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,359 Speaker 2: got glass that he may or may not have been 668 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 2: holding in I don't know, like a high ball container 669 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,840 Speaker 2: like you make a mixed drink in h And also 670 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 2: this lens that's coming into play here. So it's very 671 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:12,359 Speaker 2: dense material when you think about think about just the 672 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,920 Speaker 2: perspective of the impact event, because that's going to be 673 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 2: key because that goes to the narrative that the prosecution 674 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,360 Speaker 2: is putting forward. Can you explain this in simple terms 675 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 2: to the jury so that they understand, Okay, this is 676 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 2: what happens when you back a car up and the 677 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,320 Speaker 2: lens fractures upon impact. This is what you would expect 678 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 2: to see. And is that consistent with what they were seeing? 679 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,720 Speaker 3: It's what about autopsy, Joe? 680 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,359 Speaker 2: The autopsy itself will be. 681 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:45,720 Speaker 3: Again. 682 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 2: I go back to this idea of the proper mark 683 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 2: are are you not yet? But in the universal sense, 684 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 2: the universal you are you? Are you saying that that 685 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 2: this distinct event involving his head with this nasty injury 686 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 2: that is a closed head injury, by the way, and 687 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 2: you got the fracturing with the blackened eyes and maybe 688 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 2: a fractured nose. You're saying that his head hits a 689 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 2: tail light, because again that has to be demonstrated at autopsy, 690 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 2: and they're going to ask the forensic pathologist, is this 691 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:31,879 Speaker 2: consistent with a car backing into an individual, and can 692 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 2: you generate this kind of injury if if let's just 693 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,440 Speaker 2: say that he's he's in and just go with me 694 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 2: here just for a moment, if he is in kind 695 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:49,839 Speaker 2: of a croust or seated position and he kind of 696 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 2: raises up and is struck by this oncoming vehicle that 697 00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 2: is backing over him, you would not you would see 698 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 2: some kind of a braided area on the on the 699 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,360 Speaker 2: surface of the skin. Let's just say he's struck in 700 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 2: the front and we know that this this impact on 701 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,319 Speaker 2: the back of his head, he had to have hit 702 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,840 Speaker 2: a heart surface and was hit by something heavy to 703 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,200 Speaker 2: generate this laceration. This is not a cut, This is 704 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 2: not an incized injury. This is a laceration. So you're 705 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,840 Speaker 2: going to have the tissue bridging that we've talked about 706 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:29,239 Speaker 2: before with unclean margins. It's essentially the skin ripping in 707 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,719 Speaker 2: that two inch area and that's a sign of impact. 708 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,360 Speaker 2: So hah. You begin to go down this road and 709 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,520 Speaker 2: you think about you think about how are they going 710 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 2: to translate that in this case so that the members 711 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:43,759 Speaker 2: of the jury will be able to understand it. 712 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 3: When everything's said and done. According to the Office of 713 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 3: the Medical Examiner, the doctor opined that extensive, extensive injuries 714 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 3: to his head likely rendered mister o'keef incapacitated. The doctor 715 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:59,640 Speaker 3: further opined that upon viewing mister o'keef's injuries and her 716 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,319 Speaker 3: exam emination of the body, she observed no signs of 717 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 3: mister O'Keeffe being involved in any type of physical altercation 718 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:08,760 Speaker 3: or fight. 719 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've heard, I've heard some some say that there 720 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 2: was bruising on the hands. Uh, and you know, bruising 721 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,239 Speaker 2: on the hands most of the time implies that you 722 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 2: could have been in a fight. I'll be curious as 723 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,799 Speaker 2: to that assessment to see because again we go back 724 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 2: to this this friction that's placed on the skin. So 725 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 2: not only let's just say you have a bruise on 726 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 2: your hand after a fight and maybe you have underlying fractures, Well, 727 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,279 Speaker 2: you have to have a point of impact relative to 728 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,840 Speaker 2: that and the skin. This friction injury occurs with the abrasion, 729 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 2: you'll have correlating abrasions over this area that lead to 730 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,880 Speaker 2: the bruising. Okay, the bruising comes about as fracturing of 731 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,239 Speaker 2: the bone, you know, and you get this what they 732 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 2: call echemosis, you know, contusion that goes that leeches out 733 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 2: into the soft tissue. We'll see how that plays out 734 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 2: as well. I'm I'm interested in understanding his response. And 735 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,840 Speaker 2: when I say his response, I mean mister O'Keefe's response 736 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 2: to whatever was going on in his environment at that 737 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,440 Speaker 2: point in time. That brings it back to the arm. 738 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:24,960 Speaker 2: If he was run over, say backed over. I hate 739 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,600 Speaker 2: to say run over because with a runover injury, which 740 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:35,480 Speaker 2: you get, actually there's a classification or category that we 741 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,800 Speaker 2: talked about with bodies. They have what are called rollover injuries, 742 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,200 Speaker 2: and these are fascinating because your body gets caught up 743 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 2: by the tires and it's kind of rolled under the vehicle. 744 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:51,120 Speaker 2: So you'll get all these kind of weird, odd looking 745 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,800 Speaker 2: braided areas where skin there's so much friction, the skin's 746 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,839 Speaker 2: kind of getting twisted, you know, within the clothing. You'll 747 00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,800 Speaker 2: see transfer evidence off the undercarriage the car. That's typically 748 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:03,840 Speaker 2: what you see where you have a rollover injury. But 749 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:09,520 Speaker 2: what they're saying is the car apparently was used almost 750 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:13,399 Speaker 2: like a battering ram. It wasn't like a traditional pedestrian 751 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 2: struck by an oncoming vehicle and then you know, kind 752 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,800 Speaker 2: of a bump bump where the car goes over the body. 753 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,120 Speaker 2: It's not what they're saying. What they're implying is that 754 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:27,480 Speaker 2: the car was weaponized and that it was used almost 755 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:30,200 Speaker 2: like a battering ram. So you this guy's behind the 756 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,720 Speaker 2: car and you, you know, you slam it into reverse 757 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 2: or whatever, hit the gas on a snowy, snowy surface, 758 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 2: by the way, and you hit this guy and knock 759 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:46,759 Speaker 2: him down, and then you drive off. Okay, So is 760 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,359 Speaker 2: there going to be evidence of that? Did they? Were 761 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,399 Speaker 2: they able to recover any kind of tire tracks off 762 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,279 Speaker 2: of this as well, which again is kind of a 763 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,600 Speaker 2: fascinating thing in this in this environment, again we're fighting 764 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,680 Speaker 2: with blizzard like condition. Were they able to identify anything, 765 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:07,480 Speaker 2: you know, with in snow in particular? And again, granted, 766 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,920 Speaker 2: I'm an old Southern boy, so I have worked many 767 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 2: cases in snow. I've had a couple. But you know, 768 00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,480 Speaker 2: when these forensics people that are amazing up north and 769 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:18,360 Speaker 2: they have to deal with snow and they're dealing with 770 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:23,440 Speaker 2: tire tracks they have to put down to capture these 771 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,319 Speaker 2: these impressions in the snow. They've actually got this kind 772 00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,839 Speaker 2: of spray on wax that they put on onto the 773 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,239 Speaker 2: surface of the treads and they can lift it out. 774 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,880 Speaker 2: It's a painstaking process. It's not like, you know, we 775 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:41,160 Speaker 2: use like what's referred to as dental stone. You know, 776 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:43,239 Speaker 2: if you have like a muddy track and you mix 777 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,759 Speaker 2: this dental stone up and you pour it down on 778 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,400 Speaker 2: top of the track and then it hardens, you know, 779 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:49,880 Speaker 2: you lift it up and you can pick out all 780 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 2: the details. So to do this, to capture that kind 781 00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:56,840 Speaker 2: of evidence in the snow, you've got to really know 782 00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,600 Speaker 2: what you're doing. I would hope that they had looked, 783 00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:04,720 Speaker 2: at least photographed, you know, some evidence of tire tracks 784 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,600 Speaker 2: in the snow, and do just anything. Would those tire 785 00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:15,320 Speaker 2: tracks approximate the wheelbase of this lexus that they're talking about. 786 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,760 Speaker 2: So a lot to unpack, a lot to dig into. 787 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:26,319 Speaker 2: But you know, when it's all sudden and done, the 788 00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:31,240 Speaker 2: people that are court observers here that watch true crime, 789 00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:36,560 Speaker 2: when they see everything laid out, it's going to be 790 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:43,239 Speaker 2: certainly an education when it comes to the basic forensic principles. 791 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,600 Speaker 2: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks