Speaker 1: Of the Law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 1: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 1: vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.
Speaker 2: These are our stories done done.
Speaker 1: Yay, that's messed up an SVU podcast. I'm Liza Traeger.
Speaker 3: And I'm Kara Klank and every week on this podcast
Speaker 3: it's sv episodes, true crimes and guests. But first we
Speaker 3: just like to chit chat for a little bit, catch up,
Speaker 3: and eventually get to a place where we talk about
Speaker 3: how sad the world is.
Speaker 1: But I don't try not to. We try not to.
Speaker 1: Yeah it was hard.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, Wait, So one thing I was going to
Speaker 3: tell you about was we've been talking about AI obviously
Speaker 3: a lot on this podcast. So today we're like, I'm
Speaker 3: driving my kids to camp and we see this car
Speaker 3: and it's not a WAYM, but it's a car that
Speaker 3: has like big cameras and shit on top of it,
Speaker 3: like a way Mo, but there's a guy driving it.
Speaker 4: So I'm like explaining Waymos to my kids.
Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, so it's like a it's a car
Speaker 3: that drives itself and it has all these cameras you
Speaker 3: can't so that it knows if someone's gonna hate you
Speaker 3: blah blah blah.
Speaker 4: And then they're like.
Speaker 3: Well, I would not want to go on a waymo
Speaker 3: of an airplane and I was like, yes, no, I
Speaker 3: hope we are nowhere near WEIMO airplanes.
Speaker 4: I really do.
Speaker 3: And I was just like explaining, it's like a robot
Speaker 3: that can do this and that, and then somehow I
Speaker 3: get into telling them about AI and what it is.
Speaker 3: I'm basically like, it's robots that learn how to do
Speaker 3: things that humans can do. So it's really important that
Speaker 3: you guys get jobs that are creative and rely on
Speaker 3: your brains and things that only humans can do.
Speaker 4: And they were like, uh, we lost they lost the thread.
Speaker 1: But because that's not it, people are saying people should
Speaker 1: do trades because no one cares about creativity. They just
Speaker 1: want shows that you could scroll your phone while you watch.
Speaker 4: You're right, I'm fucking them up. I was just telling them.
Speaker 3: I was like, you got to do something where you
Speaker 3: can be with people, and that it has to be
Speaker 3: in person. And like Rosie was like, well, a robot
Speaker 3: can't be a park ranger, but I was like I can't.
Speaker 3: But we're getting rid of the park in this administration,
Speaker 3: but not when she's older, you know. So she's like,
Speaker 3: now she wants to be a park ranger. And I
Speaker 3: was telling her she'd be a great park ranger.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So she wants to be a pet park ranger
Speaker 3: because she just she wants to get a lot of pets.
Speaker 3: But her little Bessie from preschool, who you've heard of,
Speaker 3: who moved to New Jersey last year, came this weekend for.
Speaker 1: A surprise visit, and I took a.
Speaker 4: Video and stuff of them, of them seeing each other
Speaker 4: for the first time. It was crazy.
Speaker 3: I thought they were going to scream. Like I thought
Speaker 3: they were going to scream. They were both like stun silent,
Speaker 3: like they Rosie like could not comprehend it. She was
Speaker 3: like standing in the doorway like, and then she just
Speaker 3: like slowly.
Speaker 4: Went and gave her a hug.
Speaker 3: And then when they came in the house and I
Speaker 3: was like, Rosie, are you surprised, she was like yeah,
Speaker 3: And I was like, yeah, Isabelle's going to sleep here tonight.
Speaker 1: She that's when she flipped her fucking lid. Like they
Speaker 1: both started screaming and like jumping up and down.
Speaker 5: It was so cute.
Speaker 1: They're like such little like I'm glad they gold made. Wait,
Speaker 1: but you knew obviously that they were coming.
Speaker 3: I knew, Yeah, I knew, I knew, but it was
Speaker 3: like it was only planned a couple of days in
Speaker 3: advance that the dad just had some meetings out here,
Speaker 3: so he was coming out and uh like that's yeah cut.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, of course, because that friend is the one
Speaker 1: who inherited my stuffed rainbow poop emoji unicorns stuffed animal. Yes,
Speaker 1: I hope it made it to New Jersey. It sure
Speaker 1: did it. Sure did that baby travel across country.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So and now they're at camp today together they're having
Speaker 3: like a cute little reunion. What camp is rosy? And now, oh,
Speaker 3: I'll do a little shout out for this camp. If
Speaker 3: you live in the Los Angeles area, they're doing this
Speaker 3: camp called Hawks.
Speaker 4: It's awesome.
Speaker 3: It's all over the LA area, so there are different
Speaker 3: like locations and they go to different parks every day.
Speaker 4: They hike.
Speaker 3: They like are in nature. They're outside all day. It's
Speaker 3: basically hike based. They own hikes. They stop, they play games,
Speaker 3: they stop and have little luncheon brakes and stuff, and
Speaker 3: they love it.
Speaker 4: They're both doing it.
Speaker 1: Hawk's la everybody that's a free shout out my niece.
Speaker 1: So where she's staying in Mexico, there's all these hummingbirds
Speaker 1: and she's setting up feeders for them and buying special
Speaker 1: like nectary, you know, special juices for them. On the
Speaker 1: ceiling outside it's there's stained glass and it looks like
Speaker 1: red flowers. So these hummingbirds get up there, but then
Speaker 1: they don't have the energy to sustain themselves. And when
Speaker 1: hummingbirds don't have energy, they like go into this like coma.
Speaker 4: And she's been reviving hummingbirds.
Speaker 1: I have photos of her with like little straws, and
Speaker 1: because I saw one that was like laying near the stairs,
Speaker 1: I go, the humming bird needs you. And then she
Speaker 1: like brought the hummingbird back to life. And then out
Speaker 1: of my window there was like black hummingbirds which I've
Speaker 1: never seen and like, yeah, just really, And then my
Speaker 1: mom put out a line because of course she needs
Speaker 1: to air dry her clothes, and so the bird go
Speaker 1: out on the line. So it's like it was a
Speaker 1: whole like hummingbird rehab. I also we went to a
Speaker 1: cafe where a cat's like hang out.
Speaker 4: There's two cats it's their cafe.
Speaker 1: And oh my god, they were like all I mean,
Speaker 1: we were desperate for them, and they knew, they knew.
Speaker 3: It was like, so that's so cute. But Rosie's obsessed
Speaker 3: with hummingbirds.
Speaker 1: I'll send the photos I took because I also walked
Speaker 1: upon like a giant like a colony of giant wooden
Speaker 1: nests like sticks, like obviously normal looking nests, like domes
Speaker 1: filled with green like parrots, whole colony of them, whoa
Speaker 1: in nature. But also I saw a bird that makes
Speaker 1: its nest from bucks a rock nest, which was like incredible,
Speaker 1: so sturdy, so sturdy.
Speaker 3: I don't know, you must have to work really hard
Speaker 3: to like grab that little rock and get an airborne
Speaker 3: with you.
Speaker 4: Damn.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I just really love the animals.
Speaker 1: I don't want to become a bird person, but I
Speaker 1: have one friend who's a bird person, so I've been
Speaker 1: sending her all the birds, and I don't I think.
Speaker 4: She's like why, It's like I barely know this woman.
Speaker 3: But I just showed the kids a picture of a
Speaker 3: hummingbird nest that I saw at my friend's house the
Speaker 3: other day. It was like, look at this, it's so tiny.
Speaker 3: It's like so little, these little ummings.
Speaker 1: They defy science, but they just need so much energy
Speaker 1: because they're stop trying to.
Speaker 4: Suck the nectar out of the stained glass.
Speaker 1: Little birds, they're just I don't know why they can't
Speaker 1: tell it's not a flower.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, I also have to tell you this. Okay.
Speaker 3: I went to my friend's birthday party last week and
Speaker 3: it was roller skating.
Speaker 4: Oh fun. So I don't think I've ever roller.
Speaker 3: Skated, Like I literally have a tiny memory of roller
Speaker 3: skating maybe when I was like ten or eleven. But
Speaker 3: it could be a dream, you know what I mean,
Speaker 3: Like it could be something I dreamt like I have.
Speaker 3: No that was not like there was no roller rink
Speaker 3: around where I lived, Like we were more ice skating.
Speaker 4: So I got there and I was like, oh, I.
Speaker 3: Can probably I could probably be okay because I know
Speaker 3: how to ice skate, like the balance of it all
Speaker 3: and like the break on the front and stuff.
Speaker 4: Like I think I'll get it. And I was doing.
Speaker 3: Okay, and I was like going around the rink, and
Speaker 3: then this girl skated into me who knew how to skate.
Speaker 4: I saw her skating later and I was like, you're good.
Speaker 4: Why were you anywhere near me, get away from me.
Speaker 3: I'm just like trying to make my way around the
Speaker 3: rink and I full legs out from under me landed
Speaker 3: on my tailbone. My cocksix is bruised.
Speaker 1: And I'm very uncomfortable really, but I did get back
Speaker 1: up and get back on the horse.
Speaker 4: I went. I kept going. I went back around and
Speaker 4: I skated with my old friend Trixie Mattel. She was there.
Speaker 1: I skated up to her, but he was in boy
Speaker 1: drag so, like I'll say, he I skate up to him.
Speaker 1: He was like, uh, he was like laughing. He goes,
Speaker 1: you know, I still have you on my phone. I
Speaker 1: think about you sometimes, and I was like, I think
Speaker 1: about you all the time. I listen to your podcast
Speaker 1: every week. And then we just skated around for a
Speaker 1: while together and we just talked about RuPaul and we
Speaker 1: talked about all kinds of stuff and it was really cute.
Speaker 1: I just watched how they won't ask Alaska to do
Speaker 1: any drag race stuff because she has a podcast with Willem,
Speaker 1: and that's that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Willim is kind of off limits. I feel like
Speaker 3: for them over there.
Speaker 1: I know, but I would have loved to see Alaska
Speaker 1: on like all Winners, all Stars, like that would have
Speaker 1: been cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it sucks too because it is like a little
Speaker 3: bit like drag is all about reading people and being
Speaker 3: fucking sassy and saying maybe what people don't want to
Speaker 3: hear and shit. But I understand also that you're like
Speaker 3: a business and when you view somebody as a liability,
Speaker 3: you know, like.
Speaker 1: But William's the liability, you know what I mean. I
Speaker 1: like Alaska, but it makes me love Alaska even more
Speaker 1: knowing she's sticking by her good Judy. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: think also Alaska works. I think Alaska's That's fine. I'm
Speaker 1: being selfish because I would have loved to see her
Speaker 1: with the group. You know, and you saw the New
Speaker 1: Trader's monet exchange. Okay, so I did. I saw the
Speaker 1: New Traders whatever. There's a comic on there, and I'm pissed.
Speaker 1: There's no way it should be him and not me,
Speaker 1: And I don't care. I'm saying it right now. We're
Speaker 1: at war round functions. How dare you? How dare you? What?
Speaker 1: Because your in trolls, because your controls you get to
Speaker 1: go to Scotland.
Speaker 4: I'm like, so mad. He is an interesting pick.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I bet he's gonna make it far because he's
Speaker 1: like has the sweet little voice, and but maybe he'll
Speaker 1: be cut through. I mean, who fucking knows. But is
Speaker 1: funny because.
Speaker 3: It's like not his real voice, like a good voice,
Speaker 3: but I saw. Okay, wait, let's talk housewives that are on.
Speaker 3: Though we've got Rina Candy a Candy as I call her, Candace.
Speaker 4: Fresh off the Baby, Dorinda is back.
Speaker 3: I just think Dirinda being back, and maybe I'm too
Speaker 3: simple minded, you can tell me, because I've only watched
Speaker 3: one season of Traders, the most recent one. Isn't everybody
Speaker 3: just gonna assume at this time they make her a
Speaker 3: Trader like and then they voter off like pretty soon.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I feel like my brain didn't even go there, so
Speaker 1: I don't know you're being even maybe I shouldn't be
Speaker 1: on this show.
Speaker 4: I was not thinking that at all.
Speaker 3: I thought they'd be like, oh, well they brought Dirinda back,
Speaker 3: and I'm excited I would be faithful again.
Speaker 4: Well I'm excited to see Donna Kelsey.
Speaker 1: It's like, why this mom's person at like, you know,
Speaker 1: we've seen her be like, these are my cookies and
Speaker 1: my sons. But I wonder what she's gonna be like
Speaker 1: when Lisa Rena is like popping off.
Speaker 4: I've honestly seen her in still photos.
Speaker 3: I've never seen her talk, so like, I don't know
Speaker 3: what she's like at all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited. Oh Johnny Weir, Yeah, I'm like into it.
Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk Johnny Wear's cool, He's in it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that'll be really fun because we need someone bringing the fashion,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. We can't have all these
Speaker 1: survivor sociopaths. We need like a couple, We need another
Speaker 1: gab but you know, like we need some.
Speaker 3: Out Yeah money, money, well will be turning looks, of course,
Speaker 3: I'm sure.
Speaker 4: But yeah, oh poorsha, my face porsia. That's right.
Speaker 1: So oh Tara Lipinski and they're actually best friends, so
Speaker 1: they might be that might fuck them up.
Speaker 4: Who's best friends? Tara Lipinski and Johnny Whir? Oh they are?
Speaker 4: Are they? Okay?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Interesting? I need like a list. They just keep
Speaker 3: showing me their faces and I'm on the holiday.
Speaker 1: Well that's so funny because I only want the faces,
Speaker 1: and I'm on the Hollywood Reporter looking at the names
Speaker 1: being like what the fuck, Like, I don't know who
Speaker 1: this singer songwriter is like, oh my god, Kristen Kish
Speaker 1: the hottest person ever time I know.
Speaker 3: I knew you were going to be so excited when
Speaker 3: I saw her name, I was like, Liza's gonna die
Speaker 3: because I knew you were a big kish head.
Speaker 1: I'm a kish head, but also so like I was
Speaker 1: in Mexico for eight days, so I didn't watch anything.
Speaker 4: So yesterday I got back to.
Speaker 1: The hotel and I ordered food and I watched finale
Speaker 1: of Top Chef, premiere of Miami, I watch Next Gen NYC,
Speaker 1: I finished Love hotel, and I was up till five
Speaker 1: in the morning. It's sick, like I need to I
Speaker 1: need help. He got back to your region and you
Speaker 1: were like, give it to me, you give me my shows.
Speaker 1: And I watched drag Race as well, but I was
Speaker 1: so desperate in Mexico. I actually watched the Pit Stop
Speaker 1: before I even watched drag Race because I was like,
Speaker 1: I need to know what is happening.
Speaker 4: I'm like, this is killing me. But okay.
Speaker 3: So also them putting on Stephen Colletti from a Laguna beach.
Speaker 4: I love that. I feel like they're trying to make
Speaker 4: him the new Dylan.
Speaker 3: But I think he's he's going to be a Dylan
Speaker 3: Sandoval hybrid, because I do kind of think Stephen Collett's
Speaker 3: a bit of a.
Speaker 1: Dumb dumb No, but you know he's an actor too,
Speaker 1: is he you watched No, like in the Hollywood Reporter
Speaker 1: doesn't say, look gonna be just as one Tree Hill.
Speaker 4: He had like a fastful career. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: No, I think he's grown up. I don't think he's
Speaker 1: a sand of all. I don't think. Oh and I
Speaker 1: watched The Valley, which is a dark show, and I'd
Speaker 1: like to comment on The Valley really quickly. I've seen
Speaker 1: some people online be like, you know, like we gave
Speaker 1: so much shit to Sandoval, and Jaxon is doing so
Speaker 1: much worse to Brittany. I mean full abuse, like spying
Speaker 1: on her, like putting her house in folk foreclosures, stealing
Speaker 1: money from the pod like truly like he's a psychopath, cokehead.
Speaker 1: Why people are like why aren't we more nice to bet?
Speaker 1: Like why are we not giving him hate? And it's
Speaker 1: like cause we're not surprised by Jack's behavior. The whole
Speaker 1: point about Scandival was the shock and surprise and what
Speaker 1: the fuck is going on? Jacks has been a horrible,
Speaker 1: terrible person since day one.
Speaker 4: We saw him cheat on Brittany, We.
Speaker 3: Saw him brittanyel sunglasses on a cast trip. We saw
Speaker 3: Brittany have a listen to a voice recording of him
Speaker 3: like sucking Faith's toes, you know what I mean? Like,
Speaker 3: what are we doing here that We're like, why aren't
Speaker 3: we giving Britney more support?
Speaker 1: And it's like because she married the devil. Yeah, she
Speaker 1: didn't marry me. I think Sandoval is the devil as well.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying like it was shocking, and we were
Speaker 1: on this journey with them for nine years and it
Speaker 1: was like, what the fuck. The reason we're not is
Speaker 1: because this is Yeah, it's Jack's pretending he's in rehabby
Speaker 1: is not. He's threatening the secretary, the receptionist at this
Speaker 1: place to lie for him. It's like, yeah, it's bonkers.
Speaker 1: There's a child. This isn't like ooh revenge dress and
Speaker 1: obviously Ariana went through trauma. This is like full on abuse,
Speaker 1: but like, this is who he is. No one is
Speaker 1: surprised by this. The surprising thing is she's let it
Speaker 1: go this far, and I don't want to diminish that
Speaker 1: she is abused by this manipulative man.
Speaker 4: It's not like her quote like fault.
Speaker 1: But I think that's why if you're someone that's like,
Speaker 1: why is Jack's not getting the same hate as Sandoval?
Speaker 4: That is my theory.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's not as surprising in any way. We all
Speaker 3: knew he was gonna do this kind of shit. And
Speaker 3: I mean I in one of my in one of
Speaker 3: my Bravo groups, like I saw somebody posts like Jack's
Speaker 3: on watch what Happens Live tonight? Don't watch, like everybody
Speaker 3: unset it from your DVRs, like, don't watch it.
Speaker 4: Let's show the network that we don't want Jacks on
Speaker 4: our screens anymore.
Speaker 3: Like I'm being it's like a tiny act of protest
Speaker 3: and I don't know if it'll work, but like you know,
Speaker 3: it's not is horrible. I mean it's crazy to me too,
Speaker 3: because it's like I always think that Bravo gives people
Speaker 3: like puts people on pause or a break when they
Speaker 3: are actually getting to an abusive place, when it's women,
Speaker 3: when it's a woman, like when it's like Derinda and
Speaker 3: we're like, okay, we feel like the drinking's may be
Speaker 3: gone a little bit too far or it's like Vicky
Speaker 3: being a little bit too kooky anti vax or whatever.
Speaker 3: They'll like take her off, but someone like Jax can
Speaker 3: just like roam free on reality television forever. Back to
Speaker 3: the back to the casting though a little bit of traders.
Speaker 3: I do kind of like that they're going a little
Speaker 3: lighter on the competitive people, like the competition show people. Yes,
Speaker 3: you know, because I never watch Big Brother and I
Speaker 3: don't watch Survivor and stuff like that. So when they
Speaker 3: have all this like politics and they kind of talk
Speaker 3: about gameplay more like I'm sort of more like there
Speaker 3: for the personalities.
Speaker 4: You know, like and we need that.
Speaker 1: The thing is, we need some of the game players
Speaker 1: to keep it going and fuck around and have the traders.
Speaker 1: But it's like I don't want to watch Sociopaths win.
Speaker 1: I want Derinda on my screen. Yeah, like Derinda was
Speaker 1: never a threat. But they're just thinking numbers and like
Speaker 1: we can use this later and we can't. Like four
Speaker 1: of them is enough. There's probably there still are like
Speaker 1: four or five. There's like a couple, a couple survived.
Speaker 1: There's some that this one girl is amazing race Survivor
Speaker 1: and the challenge. It's like and Thenalie Island people. Natalie
Speaker 1: is one of my favorite Survivor players ever.
Speaker 4: Yeah she's the one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I really really love her, so I am happy
Speaker 3: she's there. But I don't think they have like a
Speaker 3: Boston Rob. They don't have like a hated guy. I
Speaker 3: don't think from one of those, Like there's the first
Speaker 3: openly gay guy to win Survivor is Yum Yum a Rocho, Aroco.
Speaker 1: Rob Sistina. I don't know, Like you're right, it's not
Speaker 1: the big names.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, Boston Rob was not even watching those shows,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he posted a cute, cute Father's Day. He has
Speaker 1: four daughters, he loves his wife.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I'm just like I don't know anybody from Love Island though,
Speaker 3: because I don't watch Love.
Speaker 1: I well, Laura, I know, because she's so beautiful, so
Speaker 1: like I remember her because.
Speaker 3: I used to to She is gorgeous. So yeah, it's
Speaker 3: gonna be a good one. It's gonna be a good
Speaker 3: I know.
Speaker 1: I was talking to my niece and I was like, wait, Littas,
Speaker 1: you gotta make it.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 1: I gave her my Max Pastor. I'm like, you gotta
Speaker 1: watch it. You would love it you love Thailand. Oh
Speaker 1: my god, you have to watch girls and like girls
Speaker 1: would be cool, like you're of the age, like watch
Speaker 1: and she goes, yeah, I don't really watch that much TV.
Speaker 4: Like back off. She's like, I ain't read books.
Speaker 1: Oh god, but I mean she's gonna be like when
Speaker 1: you showed her, uh Devil wears Prada and she was like,
Speaker 1: why is he not stopping? No, but I exaggerated that.
Speaker 1: She's like, we had a great time. I mean we
Speaker 1: had so much fun. I missed the food in Mexico already,
Speaker 1: Like the food was so fresh, so good.
Speaker 4: I actually didn't even neat that much Mexican food.
Speaker 1: Like the best tuna salad I've ever had in my
Speaker 1: fucking life was in Mexico. Damn, I feel like we're
Speaker 1: losing you. You're gonna head down there?
Speaker 4: I am.
Speaker 1: I mean honestly, I could probably like if I never
Speaker 1: I mean, I just love comedy so much in New
Speaker 1: York and I love my life. But yeah, but like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it is. It's weird. Yeah, things are more affordable. They're
Speaker 1: obviously the exchange rate, and so you are living like
Speaker 1: at a Toma Hawk's steak for meal, Like yeah, on
Speaker 1: the water I had Margarita's the size of my head.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it was it was just nice to
Speaker 1: get away, be with my family, chill.
Speaker 3: I don't know, it was really nice. I don't really
Speaker 3: take vacations. That's really nice. I'm glad you got some
Speaker 3: time to recharge.
Speaker 5: Well.
Speaker 4: At first, I was like, I was like, what are
Speaker 4: we gonna do? What are we gonna do?
Speaker 1: And then I was like, oh, just just you could
Speaker 1: just sit down and yeah, hang out and gossip and
Speaker 1: you know, chat with my niece. But yeah, please come
Speaker 1: see me. Oh yeah, this isn't it. Yeah, come see me, guys.
Speaker 1: This comes out the twenty fourth. So what's coming Australia.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, in the fall. I have dates like I'm
Speaker 1: going to Texas and Missouri and I'm gonna like book
Speaker 1: some more stuff out.
Speaker 3: But but all of our ausy listeners get down there.
Speaker 4: You're already down there.
Speaker 1: Get out there and get tickets, Cosey Lisa. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: excited to be in Australia. It's gonna be a wild schedule,
Speaker 1: so many fights. Yeah, and I also it's also so funny.
Speaker 1: It's like I obviously live my life. I like, am
Speaker 1: so mature. And then I get back to my family,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, wait, leave the name of the coffee shop.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I can find it. And it's like, what.
Speaker 4: Are you doing? No, I regress.
Speaker 3: My friend was telling me so much about how she
Speaker 3: regresses whenever she goes home to her family. She's an
Speaker 3: only child, and she's just like, when I go home,
Speaker 3: I'm like.
Speaker 4: A guys making me anything to eat.
Speaker 1: Like she's just like such a bit, like she says,
Speaker 1: she does the exact same thing, like I'm like.
Speaker 4: Wait, which one do I do?
Speaker 5: Wait?
Speaker 4: Which button for the laundry?
Speaker 1: And it's like I've lived a full life, Like what
Speaker 1: the fuck is going I travel the world?
Speaker 4: And then I'm like what terminal?
Speaker 1: I know? But at the same time, I bet your
Speaker 1: parents like it a little bit.
Speaker 3: I like bet, I bet they like a little bit going.
Speaker 3: She still needs us, she still needs mom and dad.
Speaker 3: I bet they like it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. It was a nice hanging out. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's fucking cute.
Speaker 3: Well really quick though. But from the pre regression conversation.
Speaker 3: Go to That's Messed Up live dot com. You can
Speaker 3: scroll down towards as Liza's websites. She has all of
Speaker 3: her Australia and New Zealand dates are there like separately,
Speaker 3: and that's the correct stuff. Sometimes don't google shit because
Speaker 3: it comes up like fake ticket sites or whatever. I
Speaker 3: don't know if Australia is as bad as here, but
Speaker 3: go there, get all of the info, get your tics,
Speaker 3: spread the word.
Speaker 1: I swear I had real life to talk about too.
Speaker 1: I feel so boring, like Mexico is nice. I had
Speaker 1: tuna salad and then I watched six episodes of television.
Speaker 1: When I get back to America, what that's okay?
Speaker 3: I fell and broke my ass bhone. I don't have
Speaker 3: that much more to report.
Speaker 1: Oh, I will say this. I can't wait to see
Speaker 1: the footage of ice in Philly. Philly, do your fucking thing. Yeah, Philly,
Speaker 1: do your thing.
Speaker 3: We're talking about a fucking city that greases the lamppost
Speaker 3: so that people can't climb them.
Speaker 1: After the Super Bowl. No, they didn't want you guys alive.
Speaker 1: It's like the mayor every two months. Please please don't
Speaker 1: climb anything. But I had so much fun in Philly.
Speaker 1: Everyone is, oh my god, wait, so I was performing
Speaker 1: in Philly. This has never happened to me ever in
Speaker 1: my life. I forgot truly where I was, and I
Speaker 1: thought I was in Boston, and I started talking about
Speaker 1: the Celtics, and then everyone booed because obviously I'm talking
Speaker 1: about the Celtics.
Speaker 4: And then I go where am I?
Speaker 1: And I had to look around, and I swear it
Speaker 1: took me like ten fifteen seconds to realize I was
Speaker 1: in Balley.
Speaker 4: So funny. I could see that happening. You're all over
Speaker 4: the place.
Speaker 1: And then I talked for a few more minutes and
Speaker 1: like did call and then I went, oh my god,
Speaker 1: you're the seventy six ers of course, Allen Iverson. And
Speaker 1: then you know, I mentioned to kem Bain Matumbo and
Speaker 1: I got them back. But like it was this thing
Speaker 1: where I truly forgot where I was. I could not
Speaker 1: believe it. So funny.
Speaker 3: You're like, am I in New York's little brother to
Speaker 3: the North or New York's little brother to the South,
Speaker 3: Like where am i? And you know our favorite woman
Speaker 3: that works at the Philly punchline yes cue.
Speaker 1: So she makes them like fans, like you know, like
Speaker 1: drag Race, Oh yeah, fans, And so she gifted me
Speaker 1: and the other Opener Comics fans that she made, but
Speaker 1: the fan that she made me says, not like us. Okay,
Speaker 1: I can't take that into poppeah. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 4: So I was like, thank you so much and thanks
Speaker 4: for your artistry. But I can't. I think I have
Speaker 4: to give this to somebody. Yeah, yeah, I have them,
Speaker 4: not like us.
Speaker 1: Fan Have I said this already because I was, I
Speaker 1: was talking to you after Philly?
Speaker 4: Whatever? No, I mean, who knows? You don't even know
Speaker 4: what city you Ryan? Who? Who knows?
Speaker 3: I mean again, I don't want to get in trouble
Speaker 3: for forgetting something like the trading cards.
Speaker 4: But I don't think you've told me this before.
Speaker 3: Also, I did talk about my broken ass on a
Speaker 3: different podcast, if you guys want to, If you guys
Speaker 3: want Oh, actually, can I do give a little shout
Speaker 3: out my other podcast that I do that's like an
Speaker 3: advice podcast with Jackie Zebrowski called Who's the Bitch. We're
Speaker 3: actually in two days, the twenty sixth of June, having
Speaker 3: a big three hour live call in show where we
Speaker 3: are going to talk to guests and we're gonna answer
Speaker 3: a ton of call in questions and it's all gonna
Speaker 3: be on our YouTube channel, which is YouTube dot com.
Speaker 3: Forward Slash the at symbol. Who's the bee? So check
Speaker 3: that out. That's the thing I'm got going on. I
Speaker 3: can't believe you've become a YouTuber. This is kind of thrilling,
Speaker 3: isn't that crazy? Yeah, they're like, we used to do
Speaker 3: all this shit on Twitch and now we're moving it
Speaker 3: all over to YouTube because they have a lot of
Speaker 3: the same functionality and everything's got to be on YouTube.
Speaker 3: People are listening to podcasts on YouTube. We should actually
Speaker 3: put our episodes on YouTube. I guess they might be there.
Speaker 3: Who knows, anyone, Casey, if you have a second, could
Speaker 3: you just upload two hundred and forty episodes to YouTube
Speaker 3: when you have a chance.
Speaker 1: Thanks, thank you, thank you so much. But yeah, let's
Speaker 1: kick off. We've got this. We're going back.
Speaker 3: We're going back to the beginning, back to basics for
Speaker 3: this episode.
Speaker 1: So don't go anywhere, all right. We are doing a nocturn.
Speaker 1: Is that a word or not? What is this?
Speaker 4: It isn nock turn.
Speaker 3: I mean a nocturn is like probably French or natural
Speaker 3: thing for nocturnal.
Speaker 4: But I also think that it's they're being really artsy
Speaker 4: season one, real artsy with this.
Speaker 3: Through my googling, nocturn is actually a Chopin piece, and
Speaker 3: that makes sense with the piano themes of the is it?
Speaker 1: What's the Chopin about? I wonder, I don't. Is it
Speaker 1: about sex crimes? Well, it's called the Nocturns Op. Nine
Speaker 1: and they are a set of three nocturns for piano.
Speaker 1: So what is a nocturn pio? It is a musical
Speaker 1: composition that is inspired by or evocative of the night. Okay,
Speaker 1: any kind of not turn that is the kind of piece.
Speaker 1: And then there's a famous one by Chopin were wolf vibes,
Speaker 1: Yes of the night, the music of the note. So
Speaker 1: I'm staying, you know, here in Mexico, and I swear
Speaker 1: it was haunted. And I kept telling my family, I'm like,
Speaker 1: there's ghosts. There's ghosts. I hear them, I feel them.
Speaker 1: There's ghosts. It's just lizards. It's just the lizards communicating
Speaker 1: to each other at night.
Speaker 4: But no one gave me a headset of little lizards.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's so funny. Yeah, they just started.
Speaker 1: They're like, it's the lizards, So no ghosts here? All right,
Speaker 1: Well we'll begin this piano of it all. And you
Speaker 1: did not play or you did play piano I know
Speaker 1: I did play piano my entire family.
Speaker 3: Basically, my mom's a huge pianist and her family plays,
Speaker 3: and she wanted all of us kids to play. And
Speaker 3: I took lessons for a few years and then begged
Speaker 3: to quit. And now I really regret it, Like I
Speaker 3: really wish I knew how to play, and I thought
Speaker 3: about taking lessons as an adult, but I just would
Speaker 3: have to get a keyboard to practice and this and that.
Speaker 3: But my brother is an excellent pianist, his husband and
Speaker 3: plays piano. My sister, like everybody played for a while.
Speaker 4: Damn.
Speaker 1: All right, Yeah, it's a cool one, all right. So
Speaker 1: photos are being printed at a store. Okay, so we
Speaker 1: could tell this very season one, Very two thousand's we're
Speaker 1: at a fucking Kodak stand.
Speaker 3: So this is like where my friends worked in high school.
Speaker 3: My friends worked at the photo place in our town,
Speaker 3: and all my breaks, I would go see them and
Speaker 3: they'd make me doubles of all of our photos from
Speaker 3: the weekend for free.
Speaker 1: That's a cool time to have. And it's like gone
Speaker 1: that whole thing, like no one prints photos.
Speaker 4: It was fun.
Speaker 1: I also like the smell of the film canisters, Like
Speaker 1: I just enjoyed the whole process of it. But anyways, look, yeah,
Speaker 1: the photos they're of a young boy. He's in a
Speaker 1: white tank top. We don't love it. His shirt's off
Speaker 1: and then uh oh, his pants are off. So we're
Speaker 1: flipping through these photos of this young boy as less
Speaker 1: and less clothes are on him. Benson and Stabler, they're
Speaker 1: their stat The clerk says, the guy dropped them off
Speaker 1: about forty five minutes ago. So someone's springing for one
Speaker 1: hour photo, which is a crazier thing to do because
Speaker 1: they have to do it in store, so everyone's gonna
Speaker 1: see your perverted stuff.
Speaker 4: You know what I mean, insane.
Speaker 3: If you're gonna take photos of something perverted, I'm sorry,
Speaker 3: but you have to like have a friend that works
Speaker 3: at the photomart or you need to get your own dorkroom.
Speaker 1: Well, if they ship them out to the photo center,
Speaker 1: it's a little different, but here it's like they're printing
Speaker 1: right in like we know you, like, what are you?
Speaker 4: I don't not to like help you help out.
Speaker 3: If they ship out to the photo center, that's also
Speaker 3: pornography across the state lines and stuff like that. You know,
Speaker 3: Like I don't know, I think that this guy was
Speaker 3: trying to get it done as quick as possible and
Speaker 3: in his area.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so his name's Larry Holt. He had a coupon
Speaker 1: humiliating and the dude whatever the photo guys like, I
Speaker 1: didn't like it.
Speaker 4: I knew to call it in like I knew.
Speaker 1: Immediately, Sailor agrees and goes, yeah, these poses are fucked.
Speaker 1: Someone is posing this boy And Benson sees a bottle
Speaker 1: of booze in the picture too, and she goes, uh, oh,
Speaker 1: not booze. And then it's gonna be hard to prove
Speaker 1: child's porn. But this could also be the tip of
Speaker 1: the iceberg. And but also if this guy gets a
Speaker 1: wind that the detectives are onto him, he might clean
Speaker 1: everything up. So they're gonna tail him for a few weeks,
Speaker 1: see what's up. But then he walks in just then,
Speaker 1: and you know, we can't expect the photo work guy
Speaker 1: to be an incredible actor and act like nothing's wrong.
Speaker 1: So he knows what's up. He's like, what's up. There's
Speaker 1: a badge, there's an arrest. We are in a press
Speaker 1: and this guy looks like a puppet of an old man,
Speaker 1: like he would be in mister Rogers little Castle like,
Speaker 1: he's not a pulse man, so he's in holding. And
Speaker 1: then his lawyer is the like editor and she like
Speaker 1: above and a wind tour in the Devil Wars Prada.
Speaker 1: Oh so if you guys remember the owner of their
Speaker 1: like version of Condonast, it's him, right, and he's been
Speaker 1: in a few episodes. And then behind the spy victim
Speaker 1: the victim okay, new blurb. So behind the spy window
Speaker 1: is our detectives and Cragan, who knows there's not enough evidence,
Speaker 1: and the detectives go, yeah, no, we know, but we
Speaker 1: didn't have a choice. The motherfucker walked in like we
Speaker 1: what are we gonna do? Stabler keeps pleading with Craigan,
Speaker 1: like we need to do something, and then Craigan has
Speaker 1: wild excuses why they can't. So Stabler goes, hello, who
Speaker 1: wears hotpants in the winter, and then Craigan goes, maybe
Speaker 1: the kid had a growth spurt?
Speaker 4: What are you talking about?
Speaker 1: And so it's back and forth and they're like, you know,
Speaker 1: these poses are taught. And then there's some other man
Speaker 1: in a suit that arrives. I'll get into him later.
Speaker 1: Right now, I'm like, I'm not learning it. I go,
Speaker 1: who are you, sir? But they explained to him that
Speaker 1: Holts is a piano teacher and this is his student,
Speaker 1: which is not good, and that means there's a lot
Speaker 1: of other students that probably take lessons from this man.
Speaker 1: And also like if there's photos, that means there's more photos,
Speaker 1: YadA YadA. We know how this fucking works. And he
Speaker 1: looks like a pervert, and so we need a warrant
Speaker 1: to get in there and find them. So then the
Speaker 1: man in the suit, like I said, I'll get to him.
Speaker 1: It's eighty A Mark Hickey and the actor's name is
Speaker 1: John Benjamin Hickey. So that's insane, and he's very famous.
Speaker 1: You know him, you've seen his He was also in
Speaker 1: season fifteen Wednesday's Child, and.
Speaker 4: Then he's in Sex in the City.
Speaker 1: He's in season one and it's when Miranda's having sex
Speaker 1: with a guy who has to shower. He's like a Catholic, right,
Speaker 1: he can't stop showering. I remember that guy, So it's him,
Speaker 1: and he knows that a judge is gonna throw this
Speaker 1: case out. And then the Devil wears Prada marches up
Speaker 1: and he's like, I'm taking my Oh. He goes, you
Speaker 1: took my clients wallet and keys, and Craigan goes, oh,
Speaker 1: that's totally normal though, and the Devil Wars product goes,
Speaker 1: I want him back, and he wants to go back home.
Speaker 1: He needs to feed his dog. They're trying to fight. Well,
Speaker 1: he can't go he might destroy evidence. Like it's a
Speaker 1: real tug of war of what we're gonna do. And
Speaker 1: then they send the Devil Wears prod on a goose chase.
Speaker 1: They go, oh, yeah, they sent his stuff to like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, a holding place. And then when he
Speaker 1: goes to like to find the items in the holding place,
Speaker 1: Benson shows that the envelope of all his stuff is
Speaker 1: in her desk and I guess things are just gonna
Speaker 1: move slower than they have to. So that's kind of exciting.
Speaker 1: But yeah, they don't want him to go home. He's
Speaker 1: going to destroy evidence. So now there's a unique cop
Speaker 1: until they get a warrant. But to get a warrant,
Speaker 1: they need more evidence. It's like, we know how those works.
Speaker 1: And there's a unique cop stopping a man from entering
Speaker 1: his home and Benson and Stabler approach and he goes,
Speaker 1: this is my father's house what's going on. But they
Speaker 1: don't have a warrant and so they can't get in,
Speaker 1: but they want to keep people out, so they're like, okay,
Speaker 1: we're locking down the house whether you like it or not,
Speaker 1: which I didn't know the cops can do. But now
Speaker 1: we're living in a world where people can do anything
Speaker 1: they want. Badge, no badge, honestly whatever needs to happen.
Speaker 1: So then the soun's like, all right, bye, I'll walk away,
Speaker 1: and so the sun kind of leaves. This is all
Speaker 1: kind of strange to me, but I'll take it. And
Speaker 1: it's a very big, nice place, and I can't believe
Speaker 1: this piano teacher is such a big house. But we
Speaker 1: realize it's not a fancy neighborhood. So this old white
Speaker 1: guy moved into like a neighborhood that the other population
Speaker 1: is not like him, and so but he can afford
Speaker 1: a bigger house.
Speaker 4: Who knows.
Speaker 1: So they keep chatting about it, and then they go, well,
Speaker 1: it's also not a fucking accident. This giant ass house
Speaker 1: is across the street from an elementary school. So he
Speaker 1: has like a mansion of brownstone across the street from
Speaker 1: an elementary school. And at that moment, a little boy
Speaker 1: comes running to the house. They stop him and he goes,
Speaker 1: I have piano lessons, and guess what, it's the fucking
Speaker 1: boy from the photo.
Speaker 4: So they're holding like how what what luck? What luck?
Speaker 4: What luck?
Speaker 1: And for the whole episode, I want you guys to
Speaker 1: know that it's winter and anytime they walk outside you
Speaker 1: can hear the crispy snow and it's awesome. You really
Speaker 1: don't hear or see snow as much, I would say
Speaker 1: in SVU anymore.
Speaker 4: And it was exciting. It was exciting.
Speaker 1: Oh, probably global warming because I'm like, there is, yeah, winter,
Speaker 1: but yeah, there's less snow on the ground. And so
Speaker 1: you know, we got a ask the dad for questions.
Speaker 1: We got to figure things out. The little boy did
Speaker 1: find the photos once, that's what they learned, and the
Speaker 1: man called them snappies. He basically went into the music
Speaker 1: books the music stand and a bunch of the photos
Speaker 1: fell out and it was kids with no clothing on,
Speaker 1: and it's late at night. But they have to get
Speaker 1: in there tonight or something happens. They have two more
Speaker 1: hours to get in there or they can never get
Speaker 1: in there again. Whatever funky little rules they're coming up with,
Speaker 1: and breaking, and so Benson, Munch and Jeffreys are like
Speaker 1: so ready to go in and finally they're like, we
Speaker 1: got it, so they get to get in there. It's
Speaker 1: painted for children, it's big plastic creans old vintage furniture,
Speaker 1: a giant box of musical books, which does make sense,
Speaker 1: and then oh, an album of shirtless boys what does
Speaker 1: not belong? And Munch is looking and opens a door
Speaker 1: and there are so many tapes like and a TV
Speaker 1: is glowing blue. They press play and we hear a
Speaker 1: boy saying please, don't it hurts, and the man goes
Speaker 1: it's okay, and it's his photo room, tons and tapes
Speaker 1: like I would say, hundreds hundreds. Benson is so upset,
Speaker 1: she's so grossed out. And now we're in court and
Speaker 1: we have forty three photos that are obscene and he
Speaker 1: gets charged with the endangering the welfare of a child,
Speaker 1: the use of a child in sexual performance, and then
Speaker 1: promoting an an obscene sexual performance by a child. And
Speaker 1: then it's one hundred and fifty seven tapes and the
Speaker 1: judge is gobsmacked, bail denied, go to jail, pervert. So
Speaker 1: now they have to watch all the tapes. So we
Speaker 1: have Munch, Benson Craigan and Jeffries and this goes back
Speaker 1: thirteen years, so they have to go through thirteen years
Speaker 1: of video and he's holding little boy's shoulders, sitting next
Speaker 1: to them. He's playing. The boy's saying no. And then
Speaker 1: we watch a few videos and it's the same boy
Speaker 1: growing like in all of these videos, so we see
Speaker 1: him as like a tiny child, a bigger child, and
Speaker 1: then like truly a teen. And so now he's a
Speaker 1: grown teen and we hear the man go please don't
Speaker 1: and the tea talking about discipline and technique because nothing
Speaker 1: gets you to play the piano better than assault. Like
Speaker 1: what is happening? I mean, I guess Joe Jackson. But anyways,
Speaker 1: the guy is fully grown. He's playing incredible piano. It's
Speaker 1: really good piano, and he looks weird. Sorry he's in
Speaker 1: a bow, but he acts like he's also been abused
Speaker 1: for a long time, so I guess.
Speaker 4: Weird is a rude word.
Speaker 1: But like he's strange, and they're really upset that they
Speaker 1: have to watch it all and they have so much
Speaker 1: more to do, and Belzer's like, you know what, I'll stay,
Speaker 1: I'll do it, and they're chatting about all the charges,
Speaker 1: but stablers like, no, I want a charge of abuse,
Speaker 1: but they can't do that without a complainant, and Craigan goes,
Speaker 1: we need to get that kid. So we pause it
Speaker 1: and it's the boy that we just watched grow up
Speaker 1: and we need to go find him. They have his
Speaker 1: photos and they're going to scan the neighborhood and ask around.
Speaker 1: And everyone in the neighborhood loves Larry. They think he's
Speaker 1: a little fruity, but hey, and Jeffries is with a
Speaker 1: video clerk and he's like, Larry is the best guy
Speaker 1: I know. And it's like, what do you what do
Speaker 1: you know ten guys that come to the video store,
Speaker 1: Like this man is a creep from the moment you
Speaker 1: watch his little eyes. The video clerks kids take lessons
Speaker 1: from Larry. He's like, you know, he's strict, but the
Speaker 1: kids love him. Everyone loves Larry. And then they bring
Speaker 1: up Ray Guzamando and we're gonna hear a lot about
Speaker 1: Ray Guzamandoo. And basically there's a post ter him at
Speaker 1: the store and he's like a local hero. He's a
Speaker 1: hot shot piano player. He's wearing a suit. It's or
Speaker 1: not a suit of text, like a bow tie, like
Speaker 1: a real classical pianist, and so he's like Larry sees
Speaker 1: the best in kids and brings the most out in them.
Speaker 1: The video clerk says he makes a difference in people's
Speaker 1: lives and does more for them than you ever will,
Speaker 1: and like for most cops, I would say that, but
Speaker 1: definitely not our detectives. Yeah, they're gonna make a lot
Speaker 1: of difference for actually doing a lot. Yeah sorry, one
Speaker 1: guy made it a professional piano player. But even in
Speaker 1: season one, I think they've put a few criminals behind
Speaker 1: bars that deserved it. So Jeffrees, Benson and Stabler are
Speaker 1: walking and you know, I've wrote about the snow crunch here,
Speaker 1: like I truly, I wrote about it so much. And
Speaker 1: they think people knew. They're like they think people knew.
Speaker 1: They're just pretending that they don't, because like then they
Speaker 1: would have to question their own parenting and what they're
Speaker 1: doing to protect their children or not. Benson goes, why
Speaker 1: would anyone even want to have kids? Like it's crazy,
Speaker 1: and then Stabler says, because you want to do that
Speaker 1: more than anything in the world. And I really like
Speaker 1: that where it's like, yeah, if you want it more
Speaker 1: than anything in the world, you should have a kid.
Speaker 1: And if it's not that feeling, I don't think you should. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you're on the fence, don't do it. And we've
Speaker 1: never seen Stabler this measured and understanding of parenthood where
Speaker 1: it's like he wanted to be a father more than
Speaker 1: anything in the world, and he made that happen for
Speaker 1: himself with you know, Kathy, who he keeps trapped in
Speaker 1: his home. But and it's also the thing of like,
Speaker 1: why don't you want to have kids because I don't
Speaker 1: want you more than anything in the world. It's like,
Speaker 1: and you wouldn't want me to have one, you know,
Speaker 1: running around It's just I like it. First, this is
Speaker 1: the first time Stablers like, well, yeah, it's like the
Speaker 1: first time he's he hasn't just said like, oh, because
Speaker 1: God says this is what we're supposed to do. And like,
Speaker 1: you know, I just don't want to wear a condom,
Speaker 1: you know, basically yeah, because the virgin Mary wouldn't like condoms. Yeah,
Speaker 1: something like that. But I just I liked this little moment.
Speaker 1: And then they hear classical music being played on a
Speaker 1: piano and they run into Larry's home and it's the
Speaker 1: boy we've seen in the tape. He has shelled back
Speaker 1: hair and it's Angel from Rent, so's huge. And then
Speaker 1: there's the Ray poster and on the fireplace behind him,
Speaker 1: so you know Ray Guzamondo everywhere.
Speaker 4: So then they they meet Evan.
Speaker 1: Evan's the abused man, and they show him a photo
Speaker 1: and they're like, we're looking for this guy. And now
Speaker 1: we're in a separate we're in a new room, marble room, blinds,
Speaker 1: so oh that's okaying, And the door opens, there's Ams
Speaker 1: files and you know, he loves he loves holtzt he
Speaker 1: loves him. He's trying to get and he's helping him
Speaker 1: try to get into a three year program. He wants
Speaker 1: to go to Juilliard, you know, lots of practice and
Speaker 1: this teacher taught him for free the whole time. And
Speaker 1: then there's a lot of general chats and then Benson
Speaker 1: is like, we know what he did and you need
Speaker 1: to tell us, but he said nothing happened to him.
Speaker 1: Benson is like, how old were you the first time
Speaker 1: you had sex? And he goes, oh, I haven't had
Speaker 1: sex yet, And they keep trying to convince him that,
Speaker 1: like Quoltz has hurt him. He goes, no, I was
Speaker 1: just like pushed really hard. But I've met the bar
Speaker 1: and nothing bad has happened. I'm like amazing, and I'm
Speaker 1: going to be like Ray too. So Craigan is deep
Speaker 1: in thought trying to figure it out, and suggests maybe
Speaker 1: showing him the tape, but Staylor's like, well if he
Speaker 1: doesn't remember something, like, why are we going to traumatize
Speaker 1: this guy into like being like here, you were abused
Speaker 1: but you never know it.
Speaker 4: Whatever.
Speaker 1: So they're like debating is it worth ruining his life
Speaker 1: and full future or not to show the tapes or
Speaker 1: like showman court or let him just live. No, he
Speaker 1: was abused, I don't know. So Kragan is with Evan
Speaker 1: and they're hitting play on the tape. Obviously we got
Speaker 1: to keep the story moving. We can't be like, honestly,
Speaker 1: we do care about your mental health. You should go home.
Speaker 1: Nothing happened wrong.
Speaker 4: Person.
Speaker 1: They're gonna say, we're gonna watch You're gonna watch a
Speaker 1: tape of you being abused. He warns him this is
Speaker 1: gonna be hard to watch and what happened was wrong
Speaker 1: and that we need help from you, Evan, And then
Speaker 1: Evan is realizing what's happening? And he's like, what is this?
Speaker 1: And it is ruining him. He's begging for it to
Speaker 1: be turned off. He stands in the corner, slides down
Speaker 1: the wall to the ground and he is repeating, no, no,
Speaker 1: this went and this one bad, this went bad. So
Speaker 1: now we're back on the snow and Benson and Stabler
Speaker 1: go talk to his mother and she's smoking and drinking
Speaker 1: and it's Newport, so you know what that means. She
Speaker 1: said they're mental. She doesn't care about her health. Okay,
Speaker 1: so there's a bottle obviously, there's also an open bottle
Speaker 1: of aspirin.
Speaker 4: I mean, she's got a lot of substance go in.
Speaker 1: Oh and then they're also talking to Evan, and Evan
Speaker 1: had his fucking Juilliard audition the next day, so it's like,
Speaker 1: now you've traumatized him before his big audition.
Speaker 4: You couldn't wait till.
Speaker 1: The fun way today.
Speaker 4: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: So now they're going through the album and all the
Speaker 1: photos and he is not giving the detectives what they want.
Speaker 1: He loves Larry, he cares about him, you know, he
Speaker 1: bought him a coat one year. And they keep leading
Speaker 1: for help and like the convo always goes back at
Speaker 1: this Gray Guzamano again, he was a prodigy at seventeen.
Speaker 4: And then Evan goes, and I'm twenty one. No one's
Speaker 4: caring about me.
Speaker 1: And then Benson, with a fun fact, comes in and goes, well,
Speaker 1: you know, Juliard just accepted a forty two year old
Speaker 1: flute player. And then Evan goes, yeah, that guy was
Speaker 1: a monk, and Benson goes, no, it's not too late,
Speaker 1: and Evan smirks and goes, really bitch, and then opens
Speaker 1: the album and starts going through the photos and he goes,
Speaker 1: that's Caesar. He's in jail. That's Ricky. He's a junkie Tony.
Speaker 1: No one knows where the fuck he is. And he
Speaker 1: goes and me, I live with my mom. And so
Speaker 1: now we're back at the precinct and all hands on debt.
Speaker 1: Larry did not have a computer, no set schedule, and
Speaker 1: nobody is talking about and the case is being fast tracked.
Speaker 1: So you know, it's only on two counts because that's
Speaker 1: all they have evidence for, and it's really fucked up
Speaker 1: with everything because of the timing and statue of limitations,
Speaker 1: and you know, this is early seasons. There's been changes
Speaker 1: in legislation with sex crimes involving children. But for Evan,
Speaker 1: anything before sixteen is out because of the years, like
Speaker 1: how long ago it happened, but anything after seventeen can
Speaker 1: be deemed consensual. So they have to prove that in
Speaker 1: that one year what happened. And so they only have
Speaker 1: two counts. It's very complicated, very annoying, and we'll see.
Speaker 1: And he just doesn't want to betray whole, like he
Speaker 1: he doesn't want to betray him. So so now we're
Speaker 1: going to go talk to this junkie and jail friend.
Speaker 1: So they talk to Ricky who's like squatted on the ground.
Speaker 1: It's so fucking freezing. They do not help him. Oh god,
Speaker 1: it's so sad to be on the street when it's cold.
Speaker 1: He's fucked up. He goes, No, Larry's place was always warm,
Speaker 1: it was never locked. I could always go whenever I wanted, like,
Speaker 1: that's the place for me. And then he runs off.
Speaker 1: And so now we're going to talk to Ray the
Speaker 1: piano you know, master from the neighborhood. And he's living amazing.
Speaker 1: He has like a nice ass Brownstone, a really nice car,
Speaker 1: and you know, they rented that street out because only
Speaker 1: one parked car on that side of the street. He says,
Speaker 1: he owes a lot to Larry, and he owes the
Speaker 1: community nothing cool. He says, Larry was the only person
Speaker 1: that ever told him he could be somebody, and only
Speaker 1: three ways to get out of that neighborhood. You gotta
Speaker 1: be smart enough, or you die there, or you can
Speaker 1: do something a ball or a piano. And he doesn't
Speaker 1: want anyone to take that away from him. And they
Speaker 1: go to try to talk to Larry's son, and he
Speaker 1: also will not speak to the police. And Craigan goes
Speaker 1: to the office and munch as they're watching tapes. He's
Speaker 1: watched so many tapes. He can't sleep. He only sees tapes.
Speaker 1: He is fucked. And then it's you know, one of
Speaker 1: the classic like I miss homicide, you know, I miss
Speaker 1: victims that don't talk. And then Craigan and him are sighing,
Speaker 1: they're shaking heads, they're chatting. Stabler's reading to his children
Speaker 1: and they're so little and cute. I love watching him
Speaker 1: with the little ones. But it's Dickie and who's the
Speaker 1: other who's the twin and it's Elizabeth. It's a rare
Speaker 1: look at Elizabeth. We barely get any scream time from Elizabeth.
Speaker 1: She's not very commonly seen now. No, So then he's
Speaker 1: reading to the kids. But then he gets up. He
Speaker 1: has a beeper, so it's very season one. He has
Speaker 1: a page and oh no, and then this is like
Speaker 1: this is my life. He grabs a white cordless phone,
Speaker 1: and I just remember when we first got our first
Speaker 1: chordless and what that meant to our family. And I
Speaker 1: also really miss the memories of as a family recording
Speaker 1: the voice like the message machine voice muss I liked it,
Speaker 1: and like who is gonna do it?
Speaker 4: And what like were we like? I don't know.
Speaker 1: I really miss those times of like one communal phone
Speaker 1: and everyone coming together for a voicemail. So that's just cute.
Speaker 1: But it's Evan. So Evan beeped him. He calls Evan
Speaker 1: back and as his kids climb him and they want
Speaker 1: Christmas again, but it's February.
Speaker 4: They can't have Christmas.
Speaker 1: Staylor seems panicked and is like, I will be there
Speaker 1: as soon as I can. So he runs to Polly's diner.
Speaker 1: His mom threw him out. God she didn't want f
Speaker 1: Sler staying at his place. So now he's homeless, so
Speaker 1: again the cops, I hope you've ruined this man's life.
Speaker 1: He offers emergency housing and stuff like that, but I
Speaker 1: don't know. And then you know, Evan's hands hurt from dishwashing,
Speaker 1: so he got fired from dishwashing, now, you know. So
Speaker 1: he's like, fine, I'll fucking testify. So Stabler got what
Speaker 1: he wanted. You got the victim to testify. He lost
Speaker 1: his job, his way to live, and you fucked up
Speaker 1: his Juilliard audition. But he's testifying, yes, Stabler if he
Speaker 1: thinks he's gay, and Staylor goes, well, I don't really know.
Speaker 1: It's not for me to say. But he's really confused
Speaker 1: because he's never had a girlfriend. And Stabler tells him
Speaker 1: like there's a big difference between gay and pedophile, and
Speaker 1: that really confuses Evan. And he goes, well, listen, like
Speaker 1: being gay is not my business, but what was done
Speaker 1: to you? And Evan goes, you're saying I was forced.
Speaker 1: So then Stabler goes, yeah, you were, and why didn't
Speaker 1: you stop taking those lessons?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 1: And he's like, I didn't think I had a choice.
Speaker 1: So Stabler nods an understanding. Stabler then responds, whatever person
Speaker 1: you choose, it should be your choice, and when you're
Speaker 1: ready to see someone that way, you will. So we're
Speaker 1: back at the Stabler household and they have a piano. Okay,
Speaker 1: how did you afford that? I think Kathy comes from money?
Speaker 4: Really?
Speaker 1: Well, they met in private school, they live in a
Speaker 1: giant house. They can afford to have all those kids
Speaker 1: in the city on a police salary, and now they
Speaker 1: have a piano and they're still going downtown for Manicotti Night.
Speaker 1: Like I'm sorry, Yeah, maybe cavy comes for money is
Speaker 1: a good theory.
Speaker 4: That's my new theory. Tell us what you guys think.
Speaker 1: So then Kathy asks if he is all right, you know,
Speaker 1: because he's lurking by their piano.
Speaker 4: She's creeped out.
Speaker 1: And then they sit on the couch and he sighs
Speaker 1: and leans back and a lot of you know, shirt
Speaker 1: buttons are un buttoned, so that's hot, and he's having
Speaker 1: a beer and he doesn't want to really talk to her.
Speaker 1: So Kathy says, did you talk to Olivia about it?
Speaker 4: Okay? Season one?
Speaker 1: And he says, she's my partner, and Kathy nods and
Speaker 1: then more like, you know, sighing a lot of sighing.
Speaker 1: And now we're back to work. There's that was really
Speaker 1: not finished. That convo is left. But because we just
Speaker 1: had that work wife comment, yeah, from like an episode
Speaker 1: we just did. I guess I'm just realizing these little moments. So, oh,
Speaker 1: do you tell Olivia? Did you tell Olivia? Yeah? And
Speaker 1: it's like, I don't know, Kathy, do you really want
Speaker 1: to hear about like molested children? Right?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 4: Keep it at keep it at work, keep it at work.
Speaker 1: Right? People are upset when I talk about the curri
Speaker 1: I'm bringing up friends that stop and people are not
Speaker 1: happy about it.
Speaker 4: So I don't know why she's so gung. Oh.
Speaker 1: Stabler and the man eightya are talking about Evan and
Speaker 1: how we get him ready and comfortable in court. And
Speaker 1: even though he's older, he is frozen as an eight
Speaker 1: year old from when he was molested. So the man
Speaker 1: lawyer is like, oh, okay, when I get kids, I
Speaker 1: give them a courtroom prep.
Speaker 4: So we go to the courtroom to prep him.
Speaker 1: He's spinning in the judges chair, he's playing with the gavel,
Speaker 1: he touches the witness box, he sits in it, and
Speaker 1: they're just really planning to help him, like do the
Speaker 1: best he can on the stand, and he can't be
Speaker 1: in court during the whole trial because then there'd be
Speaker 1: might be contamination. So when it's his turn, you know
Speaker 1: that you just come on in, talk loud clear, and
Speaker 1: only look at the lawyer, ignore everything else but the question,
Speaker 1: and he smiles. Stabler has a sandwich and a soda
Speaker 1: with a straw, which she doesn't.
Speaker 4: He doesn't seem like the straw type to me? Is
Speaker 4: that rude? Is that.
Speaker 1: I don't know, Like I just can't imagine. I feel
Speaker 1: like Stabler is someone that would think using a straw
Speaker 1: is gay. Like I know he's being really progressive and
Speaker 1: cool in this episode, but I feel like he'd be
Speaker 1: anti straw until they said that it sucked with the turtles,
Speaker 1: and then he'd be like, oh, come on, I don't know. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm sick of asking for three paper straws because they
Speaker 1: get so soggy and gross.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there has to be another way. Why can't we
Speaker 3: just not put the trash in the oceans. I don't
Speaker 3: understand why we have to get away from plastic straws.
Speaker 1: Because I would also be down for Like I like
Speaker 1: the glass and metal straws. I like the permanent straws.
Speaker 1: I'm not cleaning them. Yeah, I don't do dish. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna clean a straw with a straw thing.
Speaker 3: I gonna carry one around in a little case and
Speaker 3: have that be your straw wherever you go.
Speaker 1: I don't think so now, I just don't think so.
Speaker 1: And I want to be that girl. I love the
Speaker 1: feeling of a metal straw because it cools it even more,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like exciting. So Belser is sitting pondering
Speaker 1: at his desk and he's like, what makes a purp
Speaker 1: a purp? And Stabler goes, I don't care, and I
Speaker 1: love that and I love that. Yeah, Belzer's like, you know,
Speaker 1: bringing up frontal lobes and maybe he was abused, and
Speaker 1: Stabler again goes, I don't care.
Speaker 4: Like I don't care.
Speaker 1: He heard a lot of kids, and that's all I
Speaker 1: care about, no matter what your lobe is looking like.
Speaker 1: And Belzer goes, well, I have something to show you.
Speaker 1: And it's a tape and it's a tape of Evan
Speaker 1: and he is with a young child and we hear
Speaker 1: Larry's voice off camera, and then he moves into camera
Speaker 1: and then like he says, the little boy is ready
Speaker 1: to start learning. And now finally, Stabler is sitting and
Speaker 1: Belzer is like Blair Witch in a corner and leaning
Speaker 1: on file cabinets, and the little boy goes, what are
Speaker 1: you doing? And Evan goes, uh is the one abusing.
Speaker 1: Evan is doing the abusing. Evan is now abusing the
Speaker 1: children in front of Larry, and Stabler is so pained
Speaker 1: by this he's gritting his teeth and fuck. Jeffries is like, man,
Speaker 1: I feel bad for this guy. What at? Like?
Speaker 4: What else? What are we gonna do?
Speaker 1: And Benson's screams that are like, what do you mean
Speaker 1: we were ready to kill Holts when we saw the video.
Speaker 1: And it's Jeffries, Benson, Craigan, and Munch and they're all
Speaker 1: in Craigan's office debating like, yeah, he's both a victim
Speaker 1: and an abuser. Now what And if Evan hurts another kid,
Speaker 1: then that's going to be on us, And Craigan says,
Speaker 1: the law that binds Holts also binds Evan. It's the
Speaker 1: same laws. And I really like the way I like
Speaker 1: a lot of the ways these people are speaking in
Speaker 1: this episode, So yeah.
Speaker 3: But I also feel like there is a coercive element
Speaker 3: to what's happening to Evan. Even when he is committing
Speaker 3: the crime, he is being coerced by a lifelong a
Speaker 3: person who abused him for years, So it seems to
Speaker 3: me like he's not fully responsible.
Speaker 1: No, but I'm like I forgot how the what was
Speaker 1: the case with the van where it's like this boy
Speaker 1: was sold to this guy and was lessed in the
Speaker 1: van and then they would kidnap kids together. He's still
Speaker 1: got like the prison sentence even if your court, like
Speaker 1: I you know what I mean, I don't know, like.
Speaker 4: I think he needs help.
Speaker 3: I just think it's like it's like when you are
Speaker 3: in an abusive household and like and someone hurts a
Speaker 3: child and like they they they're like mad at the
Speaker 3: mother and the mother gets a more horrible sentence for
Speaker 3: not doing anything to help, and it's like she's living
Speaker 3: as a prisoner in an abusive household though in a
Speaker 3: lot of ways like and like and has been traumatized
Speaker 3: beyond belief, you know, like this kid has been traumatized
Speaker 3: so badly that like I do think it's like very
Speaker 3: very prescient of the show as usual to bring something
Speaker 3: like this up in season one of like what does
Speaker 3: make an abuse or look at the cycle of abuse, Like, yes,
Speaker 3: we can't just say it's just guys fucking committing crimes,
Speaker 3: and that can be true, but in this case, it's like,
Speaker 3: this is a guy kid who's been so badly abused
Speaker 3: for years by somebody that he trusted more than anybody,
Speaker 3: and now of course it's the cycle has been perpetuated.
Speaker 1: You know, you're right though, Like him being in the
Speaker 1: room on that video, Yeah, like if he was I guess.
Speaker 4: Evan alone being like this is how you teach.
Speaker 1: It was like the guy said, okay, time to do
Speaker 1: what you were told, And like it might even be
Speaker 1: before he even saw the video that he even knew
Speaker 1: that was like a bad thing to do to someone,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's like when you condition
Speaker 1: someone so young, they're like, oh, this is what learning
Speaker 1: piano lessons is. You know well, yeah, because I haven't
Speaker 1: said he thought he didn't have a choice. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: didn't have a choice to quit the lessons.
Speaker 3: He didn't have a choice to not molest this little
Speaker 3: boy when he was prompted, like I don't know, don't.
Speaker 1: You didn't even know he was abused really until the
Speaker 1: detectives showed him that tape.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's what I'm saying, like it awakened this whole thing.
Speaker 3: Like so I don't know in less and again they're right,
Speaker 3: if he does go on to abuse other people, he
Speaker 3: doesn't need help. I just don't know that, Like jail
Speaker 3: time is necess Sarah know.
Speaker 1: But the trauma to the children he did do it on,
Speaker 1: or that one child on the tape, It's like if
Speaker 1: I were that kid's parents, I don't care what happened
Speaker 1: to Evan or not, or who was in the room.
Speaker 1: It's like, you molested my kid, right, Yeah, the trauma's
Speaker 1: been done. Yeah, even if we feel bad for him,
Speaker 1: I mean it really being poor sucks, like we should
Speaker 1: help everyone.
Speaker 4: We should help people to not be poor.
Speaker 1: And then.
Speaker 3: I don't know, well, just to not repeat cycles of
Speaker 3: abuse as well, you know, just like this kid, if
Speaker 3: he even knew what had happened to him, or had
Speaker 3: had any resources or a mother that wasn't just like
Speaker 3: smoking newports and being like, oh, my kid just plays
Speaker 3: piano all day.
Speaker 4: Like if he had kicks him out, he kicks him out. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So like if he had any support, he would
Speaker 3: have eventually he would have probably at some point figured
Speaker 3: out that what was happening to him was criminal, and
Speaker 3: he would and maybe he wouldn't have kept doing he
Speaker 3: wouldn't have gone on to do it himself.
Speaker 4: But yeah, and depending on the quality of the school.
Speaker 1: It's like, did any teacher notice anything right, like change
Speaker 1: in his behavior or demeanor?
Speaker 4: And you know, like you need smaller classes.
Speaker 1: It's all just so interconnected, and I feel like we're
Speaker 1: always just looking at everything on its own when it's
Speaker 1: this huge, connected, fucking thing. I actually had a conversation
Speaker 1: with my father, who's you know, eighty seven, but he
Speaker 1: was like, we were talking about job Corp and it ending,
Speaker 1: and like how it's so fucked up because you know,
Speaker 1: it's like kids in the foster care system they get
Speaker 1: to join job Core and they have a place to
Speaker 1: live and a school and they can learn a trade
Speaker 1: and then they like have resources, and this administration just
Speaker 1: ended it abruptly, so all these kids have nowhere to go,
Speaker 1: they have no resources, they have no training. And then
Speaker 1: I was like, and then they're on the street, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, and then they make homelessness illegal. And then
Speaker 1: my dad before and this is where I was going,
Speaker 1: But my dad goes but what is it about, Jane,
Speaker 1: Why do they want to keep putting people in jail?
Speaker 4: And I go, well, Dad, that's a great question.
Speaker 1: I go, well, it's a private prison and people make money,
Speaker 1: and then these people can't vote, and then they're doing
Speaker 1: you know, labor in it, and it's like slave labor
Speaker 1: in these jails, and like, so they're getting like labor
Speaker 1: out of these people. They're getting them to stop voting,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, and they're making money off and prisoning them.
Speaker 1: And then but so you just think about like, oh,
Speaker 1: these free loading kids, right or whatever evil people think.
Speaker 1: But how it's all just so connected. Yeah, if these
Speaker 1: kids had a better school, better resources, had food to eat, whatever,
Speaker 1: if their parents had more resources, like all of these things,
Speaker 1: and I don't, I just can. It is just so
Speaker 1: connected and having resources and kids being edgy, all of it.
Speaker 1: It's just like so upsetting that it's all deemed in
Speaker 1: these separate little Yeah. I just feel like having the
Speaker 1: guy on the video, like he would have had a
Speaker 1: case for like coercion or something.
Speaker 3: But you know, I'm not writing the episode, so it's
Speaker 3: my degree from the Law and Order sv University, and
Speaker 3: so now he's unfortunately demoted from the marble room to
Speaker 3: the cement room bars and Evan's talking and Larry said,
Speaker 3: Jonathan didn't feel the music. Oh, can you play a
Speaker 3: piece of music about longing if you've never felt that?
Speaker 1: And it's how Evan learned how to play. So that's that.
Speaker 1: And Sabler's like, so what are you going to do
Speaker 1: with your talent now? It's like, okay, things are bad enough.
Speaker 1: Stabler like, you don't have to fucking remind him he's
Speaker 1: not going to be able to play piano. And then
Speaker 1: Stabler asked how many times did it happen? And Evan goes,
Speaker 1: only once, that's the truth, and I deserve to be punished.
Speaker 1: And he's like, I will test the fight tomorrow. You
Speaker 1: can arraign me. They're like, no, we're willing to make
Speaker 1: a deal. We can make a deal. And Stabler and
Speaker 1: Craigan are in a walk and talk and they're kind
Speaker 1: of like stuck in the middle of all this and
Speaker 1: none of it is clear, and Stabler says Evan had
Speaker 1: a choice and he committed a crime, and Craigan goes, sure,
Speaker 1: and we're cops and we will deal with it, and like,
Speaker 1: what's eating? What eating at you, you know, and it's
Speaker 1: little Evan, Like what choice did little Evan.
Speaker 4: Have in all of this? And it's like.
Speaker 1: You're thinking about that kid, but what about the kid
Speaker 1: that was abused? You know, It's like they're all little kids.
Speaker 1: So now we're in court, we're talking about bail. They
Speaker 1: choose not to put him in prison overnight because the
Speaker 1: stress of that might fuck up with him testifying. So
Speaker 1: the judge puts him in a motel. Stabler's with him,
Speaker 1: and Evan goes, do you hate me? And Sablor says,
Speaker 1: I don't hate you. Sablor says, what happened to you
Speaker 1: is terrible, and I tries seeing that little child being abused,
Speaker 1: only Evan cuts him off and now you see me
Speaker 1: as an abuser, and you know, And then Sailor's going
Speaker 1: through his bag because he's going to be in the
Speaker 1: motel with Evan, and like the kids snuck Christmas book
Speaker 1: into the bag because you know, they want Christmas, and
Speaker 1: Evan touches it and tries to read from it, and
Speaker 1: Stabler snatches that book away from him, and Evan lowers
Speaker 1: his head in shame. And now Evan is on the
Speaker 1: stand hole is crying like damn the betrayal of you.
Speaker 4: It's like, you're a criminal. I hate you.
Speaker 1: And then finally at the end, the judge is like, well,
Speaker 1: we've heard from everybody, dude, do you want to say something,
Speaker 1: And the lawyer goes no, no, no, no, no, he does not.
Speaker 1: I'm sure he would just get hard on the stand
Speaker 1: with his fucking beady little eyes, so that the judge says, look,
Speaker 1: I've read everything and seen everything. Nothing indicates that you
Speaker 1: feel any remorse, and so I'm not gonna be lenient
Speaker 1: in any way. Note by note, you eroded the hope
Speaker 1: from every child in your charge. You stole from them,
Speaker 1: you stole from this community. Good judge. He gets one
Speaker 1: hundred and fifteen years the max the law allows, and
Speaker 1: uh yeah, bye, bitch. She's being taken away, and Evan's shocked, like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, that long. But he'll be available for
Speaker 1: parol in thirty eight years. And Evan still feels like
Speaker 1: really guilty about this because this guy's really old. And
Speaker 1: Larry smiles at Evan before he's taken to prison, and
Speaker 1: it's a really creepy smile. And we go talk to
Speaker 1: the dad of the boy Evan molested who's like, my
Speaker 1: son is down to testify, and I want Evan punished
Speaker 1: to see. That's what I mean, Like, yeah, if your
Speaker 1: kid was molested, you kind of don't care what someone's
Speaker 1: story is. So then they say he's pleading guilty and
Speaker 1: he'll be on probation heavily supervised. So they explain to
Speaker 1: the dad like, you know, Evan's gonna plead guilty and
Speaker 1: then we'll have him on probation and he'll be heavily supervised.
Speaker 1: And the dad goes, no, my son is the victim,
Speaker 1: and stabler goes, no, I know, but it's you know, Larry.
Speaker 1: It goes back to him, and the dad goes, I
Speaker 1: want justice, not special laws for special people.
Speaker 4: I don't give a fuck.
Speaker 1: And Evan's in a suit and tie, he's in cement
Speaker 1: room bars and he's you know, he got into Juilliard.
Speaker 1: We find out he got into Juilliard, so that stinks,
Speaker 1: and the judge refuses to make a deal with him,
Speaker 1: which I think makes sense. Like I said, but he's
Speaker 1: only going to jail for one to three years, which
Speaker 1: I think like helps with the sadness we feel for
Speaker 1: this character. But it is a bummer that he got
Speaker 1: into Juilliard again, like you fuck up his own and
Speaker 1: then you we wave.
Speaker 4: The envelope in his face.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but anyway, so with trial, like but with trial,
Speaker 1: his lawyer says, we won't get the max, so like,
Speaker 1: we'll just take back our plea deal, you know, like
Speaker 1: I bet in court we'll get enough sympathy to be
Speaker 1: able to get probation and we'll get what we want.
Speaker 1: Why would we agree to this max sentence? And then
Speaker 1: Evan says, no, Jonathan can't go through that, and so
Speaker 1: he goes, whatever, I'll be in jail for you three years.
Speaker 1: I deserve it. Evan says, I don't know what made
Speaker 1: Holt the way he is, but I do know why
Speaker 1: I am the way I am.
Speaker 4: And it stops here now.
Speaker 1: And he looks out the bar windows and that's stickwolf baby. Also,
Speaker 1: do we assume that Holt was not also molesting this
Speaker 1: little boy, the one he's the Yeah, he's the one
Speaker 1: of the pictures, right, m hmm, yeah, like he definitely is.
Speaker 4: So I don't know.
Speaker 3: The dad is like getting justiced for the guy who
Speaker 3: molested his son, probably multiple multiple times, and then he
Speaker 3: really wants the guy who did it one time.
Speaker 1: I'm also to get jail time. It just, uh, who's
Speaker 1: also a victim?
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, not to keep bring up my dad,
Speaker 1: but I did just spend a lot of time with
Speaker 1: my family. But we were talking about how like he also,
Speaker 1: we don't know where he gets information, so take this
Speaker 1: with a grain of salt. But he was just saying
Speaker 1: how he read about like a family whose son unfortunately
Speaker 1: died in a drunk driving collision, like a drunk driver
Speaker 1: hit him, and the guy offered them like thirty million
Speaker 1: dollars like he was like a rich guy, and it's
Speaker 1: like it was like, I'll just settle with you. Guys, like,
Speaker 1: let me just settle with you, and the family went,
Speaker 1: we don't want your money.
Speaker 4: We want you to go to jail.
Speaker 1: And my dad was confused about like why they wouldn't
Speaker 1: just take the money, and I go, it's about justice, dad,
Speaker 1: I go, they didn't want the money. They wanted like
Speaker 1: a suffering and he he just didn't get it. But
Speaker 1: I don't know, like your kid's dead, you want the
Speaker 1: person in trouble like you want I don't know, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: because you don't want to be bought off when your
Speaker 1: child's dead, like what are you gonna but thirty million?
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Again, I don't know where these numbers came from. Who
Speaker 1: this is? Is this real? I'm not sure.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I just wonder if like someone came to me and
Speaker 3: they were like, oh, your son's piano teacher has been
Speaker 3: your kids piano teacher has been molesting them, and then
Speaker 3: one of their other students that they molested from your
Speaker 3: son's age to into adulthood one time was also coerced
Speaker 3: into doing it as well.
Speaker 4: I feel like my anger would mostly be towards Holt.
Speaker 1: But again, it's a television show, Okay. So here's what's
Speaker 1: crazy when you Obviously, we have a bunch of different
Speaker 1: places where we find out where crimes are from, but
Speaker 1: a lot of times we use the law and order
Speaker 1: fandom Wikipedia, and they say, based on a reported Brooklyn
Speaker 1: case involving a piano teacher who gave free lessons to
Speaker 1: underprivileged children in order to videotape himself molesting them, that
Speaker 1: word for word.
Speaker 3: Is written multiple times all around the internet. But I
Speaker 3: cannot find a case where that actually happened.
Speaker 4: I can't.
Speaker 3: What I did find are two cases kind of close
Speaker 3: to each other in the late nineties, right as this
Speaker 3: because this is from the first season, right as the
Speaker 3: show was kicking off, and I think it might be
Speaker 3: like a little bit of a maybe a little bit
Speaker 3: of a combo of the cases. So I will start
Speaker 3: with this first one. This is from nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 3: On April eighteenth of nineteen ninety seven, at Intermediate School
Speaker 3: two four six in two forty six in Flatbush, the
Speaker 3: Flatbush neighborhood of Brooklyn, a janitor said he tried to
Speaker 3: get into the school's music room, but there was a
Speaker 3: desk pushed up against the door. When he finally pushed through,
Speaker 3: he saw a forty one year old music teacher, Michael Williams,
Speaker 3: and a thirteen year old female eighth grader with her
Speaker 3: skirt up over her waist.
Speaker 4: After what he.
Speaker 3: Saw, the janitor went to the principal right away, and
Speaker 3: then that is where the story diverges. The principal, whose
Speaker 3: name was l Winfield, says that the janitor told him
Speaker 3: we've got a problem or something like that, but that
Speaker 3: he never got into details or something. But then the
Speaker 3: janitor goes, no, no, I said, I told the principle
Speaker 3: to misconduct, and the principle told me to put it
Speaker 3: in writing, which the janitor refused to do.
Speaker 4: I don't know why, but who knows.
Speaker 3: The janitor could have had a million reasons why he
Speaker 3: didn't want to write a report, but he said this
Speaker 3: is what I saw to the principle on May ninth.
Speaker 4: That's three weeks later.
Speaker 1: Three weeks have gone by where nothing has happened since
Speaker 1: this janitor has witnessed this. May ninth, the janitor decides
Speaker 1: to call Edward F. Stansick, who is the Special Commissioner
Speaker 1: of Investigation for City Schools in New York. And then
Speaker 1: five days later, on May fourteenth, stansik Is and his
Speaker 1: investigators interviewed the janitor, who reports what he saw and
Speaker 1: he did this with the principal present, and the principle
Speaker 1: was like, that's not what happened.
Speaker 4: Whatever.
Speaker 3: But two days later they asked Winfield to remove Williams
Speaker 3: and re the teacher, reassign him, but the principal refused
Speaker 3: until he got allegations in writing from San Sik's office.
Speaker 3: So super cool, principle definitely not covering for a fucking
Speaker 3: pedophile teacher that's on his staff. So the teacher was
Speaker 3: permitted to stay at the school that Friday, May sixteenth, Monday,
Speaker 3: and Tuesday May nineteenth and twentieth, all after he kind
Speaker 3: of knows he's being investigated. On Tuesday the twentieth, the
Speaker 3: teacher confronts the student. He's pissed and he's under investigation.
Speaker 3: He's he's confronting the student. It's like you were there
Speaker 3: also when you were both there when a janitor walked
Speaker 3: in on what you were doing. So why why you're
Speaker 3: blaming her for somehow being behind It is insane? And
Speaker 3: the teacher takes off on the twenty of the twentieth
Speaker 3: Tuesday the twentieth, to his home in toby Hana, Pennsylvania,
Speaker 3: which is in the Poconos. So if you know anything
Speaker 3: about the geography of this area, that is very far.
Speaker 3: Williams taught music at that school for ten years and
Speaker 3: traveled one hundred miles by bus every day to get there.
Speaker 1: Yeah that's a pedophile. Yeah, he's in it. He's working
Speaker 1: hundred miles by bus. What is that three hours each way?
Speaker 1: That's what I'm trying to hold on. I want to
Speaker 1: know the answer to this.
Speaker 3: Let me go to Okay, there must be some stops Flatbush, Brooklyn.
Speaker 4: Okay, this is insane.
Speaker 1: It's literally over one hundred miles. It's two and a
Speaker 1: half hours each way driving. I can't even imagine if
Speaker 1: you're taking the bus, that has to be four hours
Speaker 1: where you're taking a greyhound.
Speaker 4: Did he stay in the city right.
Speaker 3: In two They said he did this every day, and
Speaker 3: this is one way, Like I don't understand. They said
Speaker 3: he did this every day in the article that I
Speaker 3: read in the New York Times.
Speaker 1: So because we my favorite art teacher ever in elementary school.
Speaker 1: She lived in Indiana, but then during the week she
Speaker 1: stayed at her sister's house in the city and on
Speaker 1: the weekends went back to spend time with her husband.
Speaker 4: Like we asked the questions, Yeah.
Speaker 3: This says I traveled one hundred miles by bus every
Speaker 3: day to get there, and that must be one hundred
Speaker 3: miles home as well. So I have no idea. But
Speaker 3: a lot of students like knew this guy Williams. He
Speaker 3: taught musical instrument lessons as well as voice lessons, and
Speaker 3: a lot of students like couldn't believe that he was
Speaker 3: capable of what he was accused of, you know, But
Speaker 3: they discovered through their investigation that Williams and this student
Speaker 3: had been having quote unquote sexual relations since January of
Speaker 3: that year, which is old nineties journalism. Why of saying
Speaker 3: she was being sexually abused since January? Instead they act
Speaker 3: like an eighth grader is having like a cute, little
Speaker 3: fun affair with her teacher.
Speaker 1: Just reading something and it said the woman was a teenager.
Speaker 4: The teen was teen so yeah, so gross. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And so they also found out that Williams had gotten
Speaker 3: a permission slip from her parents to you know, help
Speaker 3: bolster his crimes. Like he basically was like, oh no,
Speaker 3: I got a permission slip for parents said she's allowed
Speaker 3: to be here.
Speaker 4: So he and he eventually two days.
Speaker 3: Later, after he fled back to his home after he
Speaker 3: you know, verbally assaulted the girl he'd been assaulting for months,
Speaker 3: he turned himself into investigators two days later, on May
Speaker 3: twenty second, ninety seven, and he was charged with second
Speaker 3: degree sodomy, second degree sexual abuse, and endangering the welfare
Speaker 3: of a child. The New York Times writes in this article, quote,
Speaker 3: If convicted of the sodomy charge, the most serious of
Speaker 3: the charges, mister Williams faces up to seven years in prison.
Speaker 4: End quote. Why is that the most serious charge.
Speaker 3: Why is that a stronger charge than second degree sexual abuse,
Speaker 3: like sodomy?
Speaker 1: Like it's just that to me? Is so the puritanical
Speaker 1: old homophobia. Yeah, I was gonna say, like old laws
Speaker 1: of our country. But the principal obviously did come under
Speaker 1: fire for not reassigning the teacher after he heard the allegations,
Speaker 1: which he really should have done immediately, but the principal
Speaker 1: claimed he never heard specific allegations from the janitor, So
Speaker 1: he's like, I didn't do anything wrong, of course, professional dumbass.
Speaker 1: Then New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, who, if you'll
Speaker 1: remember Borat got him to take his pants off on
Speaker 1: a fucking in a movie that was released nationwide internationally.
Speaker 1: He's an idiot. Never forget four seasons Cleaners. He tried
Speaker 1: to use this case as.
Speaker 3: An excuse for letting NYPD handle security in New York
Speaker 3: City public schools, which the school chancellor did not want
Speaker 3: to happen. So he was like, you know, this custodial
Speaker 3: worker might have felt much more comfortable reporting that incident
Speaker 3: to a cop than to his boss. And it's like
Speaker 3: why why would like why are you acting like everybody
Speaker 3: feels much more comfortable talking to the cops. You know,
Speaker 3: like this janitor did the right thing, he told his boss,
Speaker 3: and his boss did nothing. This is not a good
Speaker 3: excuse for you to, you know, deputize the NYPD into
Speaker 3: New York City schools.
Speaker 4: He's a fucking idiot, Rudy Giuliani.
Speaker 3: So honestly, I cannot find what happened as the results
Speaker 3: of this case.
Speaker 4: I Cannot'm assuming nothing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I can't find whether Michael I mean, the
Speaker 1: name Michael Williams is like so common, but I also
Speaker 1: just can't find I looked him up in lookups, Like,
Speaker 1: I just cannot find whether he was Like, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: that's a red flag. You can't get a job in
Speaker 1: the Poconos. You can't move to Flatbush. What's going on here? Yeah,
Speaker 1: what do you mean? You're driving one hundred miles per
Speaker 1: bus back and forth every single day. It's a teach band.
Speaker 1: You're a h h yeah, no, no, no, no no.
Speaker 1: There's just also a lot of guys named Michael Williams
Speaker 1: who have committed crimes and molestation crime specifically, So it's
Speaker 1: really hard.
Speaker 4: There's like Michael L. Williams and Michael W.
Speaker 3: Williams, like there's just so many, so I don't know
Speaker 3: what they're This guy actually got convicted or served time.
Speaker 3: I would imagine he somehow was like the janitor didn't
Speaker 3: see what he saw or something, and maybe he got
Speaker 3: off but very the movie election, yes, and hopefully he
Speaker 3: didn't get his get to teach again, but who knows.
Speaker 3: And then the next crime that I found, which was
Speaker 3: impossible to find stuff about, like impossible, I found a
Speaker 3: blog that had.
Speaker 4: A ton of the credit articles. What could we use blogs?
Speaker 4: Is that a credible source?
Speaker 5: Well?
Speaker 4: Really secret here.
Speaker 3: In this blog post which I'm I'm putting in my
Speaker 3: sources in this blog post, there is they have word
Speaker 3: for word copy and pasted articles that were on the
Speaker 3: internet about this case. And I know that because some
Speaker 3: of them are New York Times, and so I ended
Speaker 3: up being able to find those in like the way
Speaker 3: like way back, but some of them are from like
Speaker 3: the Bergen County Record and newspapers that have now folded
Speaker 3: into other newspapers and are now at newspapers dot Com,
Speaker 3: and I have to get a subscription and then pour
Speaker 3: through like it's not as searchable. So I was like,
Speaker 3: I'm not going to do all that, but I am
Speaker 3: assuming that this blog copy and pasted since they copy
Speaker 3: and pasted correct information from the New York Times, that
Speaker 3: they copy and pasted correct information from the Bergen Record
Speaker 3: that said I could be incorrect, but I'm prefacing it
Speaker 3: right now now. But it seems like everything is correct,
Speaker 3: and you'll see why. It's not like there's a lot
Speaker 3: of wild allegations here. So basically, this is the case
Speaker 3: of Samuel s Astor. In nineteen ninety nine, literally months
Speaker 3: before SVU premiered, a music teacher was held on one
Speaker 3: million dollar bail in Bergen County, New Jersey for allegedly
Speaker 3: assaulting a young girl who was his piano student. He
Speaker 3: was sixty years old Samuel s Astor. He was arrested
Speaker 3: in early June after an eight year old student of
Speaker 3: his told her parents that he had abused her during
Speaker 3: a lesson at his home in t Neck, New Jersey.
Speaker 3: He was charged with aggravated sexual assault and endangering the
Speaker 3: welfare of a minor. He taught music at Manhattan College.
Speaker 3: He had a wife and a grown son at the time,
Speaker 3: like a twenty something year old son. Investigators believed that
Speaker 3: there could be other victims, possibly from the Orthodox Jewish community,
Speaker 3: which Astor was a member, and in searching his home,
Speaker 3: investigators eventually found videotapes of Astra assaulting other students.
Speaker 4: So he did tape these things?
Speaker 1: Well yeah, because then, yeah, it's because I'm thinking like
Speaker 1: with power and property, or like having a piano teacher
Speaker 1: and like authority, all of that, but then to add
Speaker 1: like a close knit religious community, to like an added
Speaker 1: thing of secrecy and trust. And they couldn't even like
Speaker 1: question people because I think the day they brought him
Speaker 1: in was like the Sabbath, and they were like, well,
Speaker 1: we're not even gonna be able to get to some
Speaker 1: of these witnesses until tomorrow, you know, or possible victims.
Speaker 1: So they, like I said, they found all these tapes.
Speaker 1: The tapes were all appeared to have been secretly recorded
Speaker 1: by the teacher, not like hey, I'm gonna tape you
Speaker 1: so we can work on your hand technique or anything
Speaker 1: like that. And of course that led them to question
Speaker 1: several other children. Another eight year old victim was quickly identified,
Speaker 1: and by June of nineteen ninety nine June twenty third
Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety nine, five more victims had been identified,
Speaker 1: totaling seven girls between the ages of eight and thirteen
Speaker 1: years old, and I was looking everywhere for like, what happened,
Speaker 1: what happened to this guy? And the answer is nothing,
Speaker 1: beca because he took his own life on November second
Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety nine.
Speaker 4: He was found hanging in.
Speaker 3: His home with a plastic bag over his head, and
Speaker 3: he left a note, but they did not publicize what
Speaker 3: was in the note.
Speaker 4: And this shot, I want to know.
Speaker 3: I know this got a tiny bit of news attention
Speaker 3: because he was the second teacher in two weeks in
Speaker 3: that county to take their own life after being accused
Speaker 3: of molesting a student. So like in a two week span,
Speaker 3: there was him in this other teacher that was and
Speaker 3: they both took their lives. And so the information about
Speaker 3: the videotapes was in the Bergen County Record, like all
Speaker 3: this stuff, and it's all a lot of it as
Speaker 3: I found some of the original articles, but then some
Speaker 3: of the ones I just couldn't find and that, but
Speaker 3: it all seems kind of like it fits together.
Speaker 1: You know. I wonder if they like changed the app
Speaker 1: or yeah, this is later in the season, like it
Speaker 1: could have happened weeks right before the Yeah, and so
Speaker 1: if somebody like saw that because I wanted to do
Speaker 1: like a New York show.
Speaker 4: I feel like, yeah.
Speaker 3: And this happened in New Jersey, but was featured in
Speaker 3: the Metro section of New York Times, which is happening
Speaker 3: in the Tri state area. So I think they could
Speaker 3: have seen this about the piano teacher and then said, okay,
Speaker 3: but let's change it to this and then like the
Speaker 3: victim becomes the molesterer. Is definitely like a thing, because
Speaker 3: you know, Season one is prenial Bear, so I don't
Speaker 3: know how much medical journaling we're doing. But yeah, So
Speaker 3: those are the two stories I found. I could not
Speaker 3: find anybody like. And again, this is not underprivileged as
Speaker 3: far as I know. I'm hearing that this is the
Speaker 3: Orthodox Jewish community in t Neck, which, as far as
Speaker 3: I know, even in the nineties, was not an underprivileged area.
Speaker 3: That doesn't mean that this guy was not targeting some
Speaker 3: underprivileged people, but I think it's like what you're saying,
Speaker 3: targeting people in an insular community. We've seen that before
Speaker 3: on this show. But if there is a music teacher
Speaker 3: in Brooklyn who was serving underprivileged kids and doing it
Speaker 3: exactly this episode, I could not find it. I found
Speaker 3: a story of another music teacher, but he was not
Speaker 3: arrested until two thousand and three, so it was years
Speaker 3: after the show, so that wasn't about him. So yeah,
Speaker 3: another scary case of sview, just kind of like playing
Speaker 3: out before something happens in real life.
Speaker 1: Also, being a parents insane. You're one day you're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: my kid wants to play piano. The next day, I know, molestation,
Speaker 1: I know. And yeah, so I guess your kids aren't
Speaker 1: playing piano. They're they're not my mom My. Mom's really
Speaker 1: pushing for it. She's really pushing for it. But also, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know any I don't know anything.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think I worry about it, but I'm also like,
Speaker 3: I will die if I just worry about this constantly.
Speaker 3: But let's get onto our guests, because we have a
Speaker 3: iconic guest. Our guest today is an actor best known
Speaker 3: for his role as Angel in the original Broadway run
Speaker 3: of Rent, for which he won a Tony Award for
Speaker 3: Best Actor.
Speaker 4: Featured in a Musical.
Speaker 3: But you know him today as the piano prodigy and
Speaker 3: victim turned abuser Evan. Please enjoy our chat with the
Speaker 3: lovely Wilson Jermaine Heredia.
Speaker 4: Oh, I mean, our listeners are gonna go insane.
Speaker 1: This is huge. We're very thrilled you're here.
Speaker 5: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3: I mean I texted my best friend this morning, who
Speaker 3: has two Rent tattoos on her body, and she was
Speaker 3: like an icon like you. I mean, I have like
Speaker 3: all of Angel's songs on my mixtapes from high school.
Speaker 1: Like it's that's fantastic to be able to talk to you,
Speaker 1: so exciting. Did you watch that so much?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Did you rewatch it?
Speaker 5: No? No, I haven't rewatched it. I because I've for
Speaker 5: a long time I used it. It was still it
Speaker 5: was on my reel until about I don't know, about
Speaker 5: five years ago because it was such a good it
Speaker 5: was it was like it was my first TV episodic ever,
Speaker 5: uh and where I got to cut my teeth on
Speaker 5: it and for a while, and just because I was
Speaker 5: just lazy about about redoing my reel. So I've always
Speaker 5: seen bits of it and friends throughout the years they
Speaker 5: would say like, oh my god, I didn't know you
Speaker 5: went on this. You won on a SVU And I
Speaker 5: was like, yep, the first season and Uh, yeah, so
Speaker 5: I've seen it's it's surprisingly fresh in my mind, like
Speaker 5: not super like I can't give you all the details,
Speaker 5: but it's very very fresh in my mind.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I was gonna say, I just looked up
Speaker 3: it actually came out May twelve, two thousand, so like
Speaker 3: just over twenty five years to the day pretty much. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And we're talking to you, so we always appreciate when
Speaker 3: somebody from the earlier seasons comes on to talk about
Speaker 3: show they made two decades ago. So we appreciate you,
Speaker 3: and we would love to hear anything you remember. I mean,
Speaker 3: like so you were, like you remember, you were more
Speaker 3: of like a Broadway baby doing all this stuff, winning
Speaker 3: a Tony, and then you got this. I know there's
Speaker 3: a couple other things on your IMDb before this, but
Speaker 3: like you said, your first episode of episodic, how did
Speaker 3: it like all come about?
Speaker 5: Well, you know, just just through the regular channels. I
Speaker 5: auditioned for it. I was auditioning for other stuff before,
Speaker 5: and and I was trying to figure out like what,
Speaker 5: I'm a very strange well even even still now, even
Speaker 5: now that I'm a little bit more burly, I'm a
Speaker 5: strange fit. Uh and and finding the right thing to
Speaker 5: be cast in, and even the thing, even anything that
Speaker 5: I was really truly interested in, because you know, casting
Speaker 5: directors and directors and producers, I mean, they can still
Speaker 5: like if you're not really super super super super into
Speaker 5: it and you're just auditioning to audition, they could just
Speaker 5: read right through it. And so that that reads through
Speaker 5: all that this particular audition when I first read it,
Speaker 5: and this is like back in the day where you
Speaker 5: actually had to go to the agency to pick up
Speaker 5: the sides rather than have the sides that delivered to
Speaker 5: you via email. You had to go. Sometimes they would
Speaker 5: deliver it to you, but you had to go and
Speaker 5: pick it up. And so you have to be really
Speaker 5: really invested. And I read it and I thought, I
Speaker 5: can really like this, I can really do this. This
Speaker 5: is right up my alley and I already had it
Speaker 5: planned in my head, and I live in the Upper
Speaker 5: East Side. And I also have discovered then and even
Speaker 5: now and even as far as the method that I
Speaker 5: used to audition for rent, is that the less you
Speaker 5: really and it sounds kind of messed up, but the
Speaker 5: less you really care about it, meaning as in like
Speaker 5: not not as in like you don't care about it
Speaker 5: at all, meaning that that you just kind of throw
Speaker 5: caution to the wind, you know what I mean, like
Speaker 5: like you just like you know what I'm going to do,
Speaker 5: what I'm going to do. So I guess what I'm
Speaker 5: saying is that you don't overthink it. You just kind
Speaker 5: of go in and just do your thing. So I
Speaker 5: went in there with with my idea of what Evan
Speaker 5: was and how Evan spoke and how and I was
Speaker 5: already in that place, and I remember kind of going like, uh,
Speaker 5: what was I get it? I get it, you know
Speaker 5: not you know, I laid it all out there and
Speaker 5: I had it. Just there was this particular cadence that
Speaker 5: I that I felt that that he had because of
Speaker 5: what has happened to him and what he's like. Uh
Speaker 5: and uh sort of like an arrested development emotionally kind
Speaker 5: of kind of character. Uh. And And I went in
Speaker 5: there and as far as I was concerned, I was,
Speaker 5: I was in the scene, was shooting the scene in there,
Speaker 5: and you know, I went in there and and everybody
Speaker 5: was out there, everybody, the director, producer, writer, everyone's there,
Speaker 5: and it stood my thing and I stood up and uh,
Speaker 5: I was like, yeah, thanks, I walked out. Back then,
Speaker 5: I was a smoker. So the first thing I did
Speaker 5: was like it was like take my smoke out. I
Speaker 5: was walking, I was walking out. I was one of
Speaker 5: those those those people that that had cell phones early on,
Speaker 5: and uh, I kid you not like on my way
Speaker 5: half because it was it was the audition was down
Speaker 5: where like where Chelsea Piers, right around that area where
Speaker 5: where Chelsea Piers is, and and so those so I've
Speaker 5: been down there. I'm pretty sure you have. Is that
Speaker 5: those blocks are super long, right, They're super long. So
Speaker 5: down the very first block halfway through, I got the
Speaker 5: phone call and they said like ooh, and they said,
Speaker 5: like you got it. Yeah. I was like, wow, I.
Speaker 4: Love to hear it.
Speaker 1: Once you booked it, then, what was like the shooting, Like,
Speaker 1: I mean, it was such a it was like Law
Speaker 1: and Order was an established show, but it was the
Speaker 1: first season of SVU.
Speaker 3: I mean, now it's the longest running live action show.
Speaker 3: Season twenty six is wrapping up. But like you were
Speaker 3: in the first inaugural season.
Speaker 5: Yeah, oh it was. It took it was two weeks,
Speaker 5: which I don't know how long episodes take now, but
Speaker 5: it was. Yeah, it was about two weeks and you know,
Speaker 5: days were long, and I remember thinking, I love this process.
Speaker 5: I really do love this process. The one thing that
Speaker 5: I noted immediately was that you had to have endurance.
Speaker 5: It's a different kind of energy and a sort of patience.
Speaker 5: It's it challenging for anyone that has gone from from
Speaker 5: theater to and and where their main thing, and me,
Speaker 5: my main thing has always been I started in theater.
Speaker 5: It was always what I wanted to do and and uh,
Speaker 5: you know, fancied myself doing a lot of indies, but
Speaker 5: but never anything big. But I didn't know the process, like,
Speaker 5: for example, the process of setting up setting up a scene,
Speaker 5: like you shoot something and then you shoot a close
Speaker 5: up on you, and then you have to shoot the
Speaker 5: scene again and then they have to turn it around
Speaker 5: on the other person. But you have to stay behind
Speaker 5: that camera person for uh, just for sightline, and that
Speaker 5: takes like sometimes two hours just to turn the camera
Speaker 5: around because the lighting and everything. Asked me, and so
Speaker 5: I was like, this is something new, this is definitely
Speaker 5: something new. So to maintain I understand. And I guess
Speaker 5: what I'm getting at is is I've now I understand
Speaker 5: rather than I understood like, oh, now I understand like
Speaker 5: method actors like why why why they do that in
Speaker 5: or just to stay in character all day and all
Speaker 5: so that way they can be consistent from shot to
Speaker 5: shot to shot. Luckily, I have this just manic energy
Speaker 5: that he was, like I was on the whole time.
Speaker 5: I was ready to go.
Speaker 1: Well you're probably excited, absolutely absolutely, and and.
Speaker 5: I came away thinking like I can do this. I
Speaker 5: can do this on a regular you know, like, HI,
Speaker 5: definitely hire me as a seasoned regular for anything. And
Speaker 5: I'm and I'm still you know, to this day, I'm
Speaker 5: still I'm still looking to see like what what is
Speaker 5: what is in the cards for me? As far as
Speaker 5: that that that that for me is is like my my, Mecca,
Speaker 5: my my, it's it's it was like the gig that
Speaker 5: I do want. And uh, I mean because you know
Speaker 5: you're off on weekends also mean you don't shoot on weekends.
Speaker 5: It's it's fantastic. It's it's a it's a what I
Speaker 5: call the civilized schedule theater. You you you're performing eight
Speaker 5: shows a week, you only have one day off, you
Speaker 5: have Mondays year, you're working holidays, you're missing everything and
Speaker 5: all you and then your whole life is focused on it.
Speaker 5: I love theater, though I still like I'm not even
Speaker 5: saying that that that I I don't like it, don't
Speaker 5: want to. I'm just saying that that if if I
Speaker 5: can choose, if someone would give me the choice and
Speaker 5: say one for one year, would you rather do a
Speaker 5: TV show and work thirteen fourteen hour days and then
Speaker 5: have like, you know, a couple of months off and
Speaker 5: then go back or worked that whole year through recently
Speaker 5: of Monday and and and and drain yourself completely. I would.
Speaker 5: I would do that, And and I came away just
Speaker 5: super excited about the process. And yeah it was. It
Speaker 5: was a lot a lot of fun, A lot of
Speaker 5: fun it was. And and they were great there too,
Speaker 5: no horror st always, no divas, nothing, it was it was.
Speaker 5: It was a great production. It was a great crew,
Speaker 5: it was great director, it was it was a lot
Speaker 5: of fun.
Speaker 1: Well, because it was season one, I bet they also
Speaker 1: still had the level of excitement too, you know, like
Speaker 1: now everyone says it's a well oiled machine, but I
Speaker 1: bet they were all jazz to to get those jobs
Speaker 1: and like be on set. Yeah, wonderful the extra But
Speaker 1: then the episode so dark yeah, I know, and your
Speaker 1: character is kind of quiet, you know, they really have
Speaker 1: to pull so much out from him.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's there were a lot of there
Speaker 5: were a lot of scenes. I mean there was there
Speaker 5: was there was that excitement, but there was also that
Speaker 5: that energy of of what the subject matter is about,
Speaker 5: and and how disturbing all of it was, and and
Speaker 5: so you know, you had to make sure to lighten
Speaker 5: up when when when the director would say cut, and
Speaker 5: and there was that. Mariska was great. I love love
Speaker 5: Chris's energy as well, Like I I'm just sort of
Speaker 5: in love with with this whole body of work in general,
Speaker 5: and and and how versatile he is and and just
Speaker 5: very very supportive.
Speaker 1: I mean, your Wikipedia does not have a lot of
Speaker 1: information about you in terms of like it says you
Speaker 1: grew up in New York, But then like how did
Speaker 1: you get into that?
Speaker 4: Were you doing that in high school? Were you like
Speaker 4: discover your theater? Like how were you just like a god?
Speaker 5: I wish man? I wanted to. I wanted to. I
Speaker 5: went to actually college not not far away from mcguard
Speaker 5: I went to Hunter. I went about it in I
Speaker 5: got to the theater or to acting in a roundabout way.
Speaker 5: But I was always I was always a performer of
Speaker 5: some sort or I was and I was definitely definitely
Speaker 5: one artist. I was visual artists ever since. You know,
Speaker 5: I remember really seriously taking drawing very very seriously, went
Speaker 5: to art school. Was always the center of attention in
Speaker 5: house parties. Dancing became sort of semi professional dancer, dancing
Speaker 5: for for if you remember freestyle, the music freestyle. I
Speaker 5: was dancing for a couple of freestyle groups. Went to Brazil.
Speaker 5: Uh did that so I I I knew that's what
Speaker 5: I wanted to do. But I was studying medicine and
Speaker 5: that that's what my that's what my parents want me
Speaker 5: to do. I mean, they're the Dominican immigrants, and so
Speaker 5: they they like and and it isn't like like they
Speaker 5: didn't have any faith in me. It's like they just
Speaker 5: knew that it was a very hard world and they
Speaker 5: didn't want they they their opinion was that you didn't
Speaker 5: come here to to to bust our humps. So that
Speaker 5: way we can watch our son Uh go into a career.
Speaker 5: And he's particularly a person of color, and and we
Speaker 5: don't see anyone of color get to the higher echelons,
Speaker 5: get to the get to the A list, and so
Speaker 5: go to school, get your get your toma, become a
Speaker 5: doctor all that. So the reason that it all really
Speaker 5: came about was just because I was I was so
Speaker 5: and still am interested in science and biology and and
Speaker 5: how the body worked and so. But then you know,
Speaker 5: you get manipulated by your parents say that's what you
Speaker 5: want to be. You want to be a doctor? Was like,
Speaker 5: and then you do at school, yes, and and that
Speaker 5: that continues on. So I went to a vocational high
Speaker 5: school and became a medical assistant, and so worked in
Speaker 5: several hospitals, clinics and the whole thing. And so I'm
Speaker 5: really good and I'm really good at that job. I
Speaker 5: was really really good. I just but I just knew
Speaker 5: this is not who I am. This is not the
Speaker 5: or rather, this is not the entirety of of who
Speaker 5: I am. It's just like it's like the full opposite. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: And I I remember being asked once what my parents
Speaker 5: felt when they saw me in drag and I'm like,
Speaker 5: that's the wrong question. The question you should be asking
Speaker 5: me is what I said, or rather what what what
Speaker 5: they said when I said I'm not going to be
Speaker 5: a doctor. I'm not going to medical school. That completely
Speaker 5: shattered them. Uh and and they said, uh, you know,
Speaker 5: you're on your own. And I told them this. When
Speaker 5: I graduated high school went to me. They expected me
Speaker 5: to go straight into into you know, headlong into studying
Speaker 5: medicine and start the prep. But I said, like, you know,
Speaker 5: that's that's not who I am. And let's just face it,
Speaker 5: you guys know that's not who I am. Your question
Speaker 5: is how did I start? I had to lie. I
Speaker 5: had to first lie my first like dancing gig and
Speaker 5: all that. I had to lie to my parents say
Speaker 5: like it's I mean, technically it was sort of like
Speaker 5: a half lie. I said, like I'm I'm I'm going
Speaker 5: for a job interview, and it was it was actually
Speaker 5: an audition to dance for this group. And then you know,
Speaker 5: I just my whole life that from that time, like
Speaker 5: even before that, all I was doing is either dancing, drawing, writing,
Speaker 5: That's what I was doing. And and by the time
Speaker 5: that I got to I mean, I went to two
Speaker 5: colleges and I went to to one to New York
Speaker 5: City Tech to for for art and design. I took
Speaker 5: off a semester trying to figure out what I wanted
Speaker 5: to do, what school I wanted to go to, and
Speaker 5: ended up at Hunter College and I started taking dance
Speaker 5: classes there. I felt still at that time, I knew
Speaker 5: that I was again I was going to end up
Speaker 5: on a stage as as a theater performer, but not
Speaker 5: yet I was. I was really really working on on
Speaker 5: my dance career. And I both both my ham shrinks
Speaker 5: in two different occasions because I was a club kid
Speaker 5: and I battled. I battled, and I mean that's what
Speaker 5: clubs were for me. People would go, you know, other
Speaker 5: people maybe have a different perspective or what they had experience,
Speaker 5: whether drinking or dancing or whatever, or rather like socializing.
Speaker 5: For me and my group of people, it was literally
Speaker 5: it was like a movie. It was. It was going
Speaker 5: in seeing the middle of the dance floor open up
Speaker 5: and then battling and making your bones and making your
Speaker 5: that is that is what we did that and that's how.
Speaker 5: I mean, that's how how when when I auditioned for rent,
Speaker 5: the club kid thing, it was like club kit. I
Speaker 5: don't have to pretend that I'm a club kid, like
Speaker 5: I still am. Like that happened like about four years ago,
Speaker 5: you know, so uh that is what I did. And
Speaker 5: when I was working at the clinic, my night life
Speaker 5: was still that I was still forming and I was
Speaker 5: still going to clubs. And so when I pulled my hamstrings,
Speaker 5: the dance teacher said like, and doctor said, like, you
Speaker 5: know for six months, you're not going to be normal
Speaker 5: for a while. You know, you're not gonna be able
Speaker 5: to dance. Really, it's so long. Yeah, yeah, well hamstrings,
Speaker 5: you know, the tendon takes takes a while. And I
Speaker 5: was like, what am I going to do? It's like
Speaker 5: six months to me? And you know, for a twenty
Speaker 5: what twenty twenty year old? Twenty yeah, twenty year old?
Speaker 5: Six months is a long time for a twenty year old,
Speaker 5: it feels it feels like it's years.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So a friend of mine said, you know, why don't
Speaker 5: you well, since you can't take the dance classes anymore,
Speaker 5: it's going to be useless for you being in there,
Speaker 5: why don't you just audit the acting one oh one class.
Speaker 5: And that's what I did. I walked into the acting
Speaker 5: one o one class and Heather Alurs was the teacher,
Speaker 5: and within one month, within the month of me being
Speaker 5: in that class, I was already in my first off
Speaker 5: Broadway play Wow, And I had my equity card. And
Speaker 5: because when some and I tell this to everybody, I
Speaker 5: teach master classes and and and to anyone that'll have
Speaker 5: me to both ready to schools and uh, and the
Speaker 5: one thing I always tell everybody is like, when something
Speaker 5: is meant for you, it's meant for you, and you
Speaker 5: know it and there is nothing that's going to stop that.
Speaker 5: And uh, that was that was me from the moment
Speaker 5: that I told my parents, and even before that, it
Speaker 5: was more about the recognizing, uh, the coming out of
Speaker 5: I'm an artist like and and the way it felt
Speaker 5: like was I'm an artist, And then I went, oh,
Speaker 5: I'm an artist? What am I going to do to
Speaker 5: see my life?
Speaker 1: Did your parents end up coming to shows?
Speaker 5: Some? But I think maybe like one two, they thought
Speaker 5: it was a hobby. They thought it was still still
Speaker 5: a hobby, a hobby that I They knew that I
Speaker 5: was talented and that I was hard working at that,
Speaker 5: but they they saw it as a talent. They didn't
Speaker 5: see it as a way of really making a living.
Speaker 5: I mean it's hard, but a way of They didn't
Speaker 5: see it as a lifestyle. They just thought as as
Speaker 5: a hobby for me. It wasn't It's not a lifestyle
Speaker 5: for me. It's it's who I am, It's what I do,
Speaker 5: It's it's how I make a living. It's it's how
Speaker 5: I see the world.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 5: And so when they saw a rent, they were like wow.
Speaker 5: For a while, I mean my mom even even my
Speaker 5: mom for a while, well that would say like, she's like,
Speaker 5: you can't sing. She's like so she would laugh when
Speaker 5: I would try to sing. And then after that, I
Speaker 5: was still I was still living at home. And but
Speaker 5: it wasn't like I was living at home the whole
Speaker 5: time before I moved out. Then had to come and uh,
Speaker 5: I had to come back for a stint and then
Speaker 5: and then I was like, okay, I'm just saving money
Speaker 5: so that way I can I can leave again. So
Speaker 5: in the so opening night did my thing. You had
Speaker 5: to do that and come home and get and see
Speaker 5: my parents, and my Mom's like, boppy, you can sing.
Speaker 5: I'm like, I've been trying to tell you that. I'm
Speaker 5: We're trying to tell you. I'm trying to tell you
Speaker 5: for for a long time. It's it's I just had to,
Speaker 5: you know, give me the right material. And uh. And
Speaker 5: then the Tonys came and went, and you know, months,
Speaker 5: I think like maybe four or five months after the Tonys.
Speaker 5: My mom goes like, Okay, well, now that you're done
Speaker 5: with your hobby and you got your little award, you
Speaker 5: can go back to be a doctor right.
Speaker 4: Now that you've won a Tony. Oh my god, you.
Speaker 5: Can do both, Like Mom, it's it shows like I
Speaker 5: don't think you understand like how much energy this takes.
Speaker 5: And she she didn't, but uh, but yeah.
Speaker 1: When you join rent, like you guys all have gone
Speaker 1: on to such amazing careers, Like were you close with
Speaker 1: are you close with specific people from that cast?
Speaker 4: I saw you all at Redwood.
Speaker 1: It's not all of you, but it was Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: Adina's new.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well not all of us were able to make it.
Speaker 5: I'm pretty sure, Like, but we we we still have
Speaker 5: a group chat.
Speaker 4: The two that have been on the podcast.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you guys have a group chat.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, all of us still pretty much. Tay changed
Speaker 5: his number, so Tay is the only but he was
Speaker 5: on the group chat for a while. We're genuinely, genuinely
Speaker 5: family and friends and so, you know, and we talked
Speaker 5: to you know, some people talk to each other more
Speaker 5: than others. But but since Jesse started his new show,
Speaker 5: I I I hear from him less, but we but
Speaker 5: we check. We chat quite a bit.
Speaker 3: We do any last minute tidbits that you remember from
Speaker 3: the set, like uh or anything you want to prom
Speaker 3: or Sepher Maloney throwing up piece of pie at someone
Speaker 3: at Craft Services.
Speaker 4: I don't know that was that was bad improv. I
Speaker 4: couldn't think of anything.
Speaker 5: When when they show me the video of of me
Speaker 5: getting raped and and it's just me and my reaction
Speaker 5: shot if you remember, there's a set when I go
Speaker 5: like what's this? What's this? Like no, no, no, and
Speaker 5: that's when I collapse and I go to the corner
Speaker 5: of the room, the floor and I and I go
Speaker 5: like no no. But the director did in order to
Speaker 5: get my reaction. I mean, if he knew, if he
Speaker 5: knew where I came from, he would have gotten something
Speaker 5: else for me, because what he what he showed me
Speaker 5: was like he showed me cow's being slaughtered. Oh but see,
Speaker 5: I grew up in Brooklyn and and I've seen I'm
Speaker 5: I'm not and I'm not kidding about this. Like I've
Speaker 5: seen people freshly shot, I have seen people stabbed, I
Speaker 5: have seen, so blood is nothing new for me. I
Speaker 5: was like, Oh, you need to show me something a
Speaker 5: lot more like a lot more fucked up for me
Speaker 5: to react like that. So I still had to and
Speaker 5: go like, oh that's terrible. Oh Cole's heads being cut
Speaker 5: off not a big deal. Oh my god, I know
Speaker 5: that's so messed up. It shows you, like how I
Speaker 5: grew up. Yeah, and then I played Angel, so but
Speaker 5: uh yeah, man, yeah, yeah it was it was a blast.
Speaker 5: If it was a blast, and and uh yeah, I
Speaker 5: hope that they've read. They decide to write Evan back
Speaker 5: into the show one episode of like you know him
Speaker 5: coming back and what happens, like how he how he
Speaker 5: pays his step to society.
Speaker 4: You know, totally starts helping the department.
Speaker 5: Yeah, becomes a cop and becomes a season regular. That's
Speaker 5: for you because if my man, I see kid can
Speaker 5: be it s for you, right he is he on SVU.
Speaker 3: If he for you, he joined the season after you
Speaker 3: your your part, then.
Speaker 5: Then you know they can they can have me. They
Speaker 5: can definitely like write me in right right Evan and
Speaker 5: go like you know Evan or you know, he paid
Speaker 5: his dues, he went to the Academy.
Speaker 1: This thing, or they can have you back as somebody
Speaker 1: totally different.
Speaker 4: They could have you back.
Speaker 5: Who knows again, I look I look different now I'm
Speaker 5: a different cat. So you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh memoriessh.
Speaker 3: You were on our list of guests from the very
Speaker 3: beginning in this podcast is four years old, all right,
Speaker 3: so we've been really happy to get you.
Speaker 4: That was cool. What a fucking icon.
Speaker 1: But I also love in the intro to call victim
Speaker 1: turned abuser.
Speaker 4: That's such a funny thing to put in it. Someone's
Speaker 4: so many.
Speaker 3: Are so many are We've talked about that in our
Speaker 3: on this pod a lot. But I was jazz to
Speaker 3: get to talk to him, like I have. My best
Speaker 3: friend is such a Rent head. She has like two
Speaker 3: Rent tattoos on her body. She was so excited when
Speaker 3: we talked to Anthony Rapp And then I messaged her
Speaker 3: and was like, we're talking to Angel, Like she used
Speaker 3: to make me mixes that had today for you on
Speaker 3: the mix.
Speaker 4: Like I just Angel was and just loves his fucking craft.
Speaker 1: And I just like like talking to people that are
Speaker 1: in you know, I have some insight and work hard
Speaker 1: and like, have you seen Rent in terms of like
Speaker 1: the movie or like or have you stayed on Broadway?
Speaker 1: I didn't know, Okay, I like, I just saw the
Speaker 1: movie so much. Yeah, the movies not good.
Speaker 4: I don't think. I didn't think the movie was good.
Speaker 1: But I have to see a Dina Menzel Tree Tree musical.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, but rent on Broadway was so amazing. And
Speaker 3: maybe it's just because like I saw it as like
Speaker 3: a high schooler and was like it was like so
Speaker 3: transformative and awesome and like, but a lot of the
Speaker 3: characters are really like selfish and kind of like crazy
Speaker 3: New Yorkers, like squatting in buildings and making their dreams
Speaker 3: come true and like whatever.
Speaker 4: But Angels just like kind of pure hearted and like.
Speaker 3: So she's she's definitely like a character in the show
Speaker 3: that you're just like everybody loves Angel.
Speaker 4: So anyway, love it.
Speaker 1: Oh wait, have you seen the discourse on Sabrina Carpenter.
Speaker 4: Yeah I I have not, but I spoke about it,
Speaker 4: thank God.
Speaker 1: Yes, So I know about it, and I think it's
Speaker 1: like it's crazy, it's a little bit crazy.
Speaker 4: I saw a meme.
Speaker 3: I saw a meme that was like, well, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I guess I had to hear what you have to think.
Speaker 1: I don't like the picture and I don't like that
Speaker 1: anyone like what because I didn't know the references. I
Speaker 1: didn't know the fifties advertisements, advertisements that it's kind of
Speaker 1: like referring to so at first glance, and I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm pretty media literate, and what bothers me is
Speaker 1: like all the Instagram kind of you know, TikTok, Like
Speaker 1: the opinions of it all are very much like because
Speaker 1: people take things literally and you don't understand, and you
Speaker 1: just don't understand, and she is feminist and you're just
Speaker 1: this and you're that, and it's like, just because I
Speaker 1: don't like something, it doesn't mean I fully don't understand it.
Speaker 1: Like then, I saw the fifties ads and I'm taking
Speaker 1: it all in. And you're also allowed to like something
Speaker 1: and not be into it, even if there's like it's
Speaker 1: supposed to be satire. I don't think she nailed it,
Speaker 1: Like I'm sorry, it was a swing and a miss
Speaker 1: for me. I think it's kind of I don't like it.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's the worst thing ever I interest,
Speaker 1: but I don't like it and I don't but what
Speaker 1: is the satire?
Speaker 4: It's like, what is.
Speaker 3: It well, I didn't know that it was supposed to
Speaker 3: be satire or anything.
Speaker 4: I thought it was just kind of like a kink.
Speaker 4: I thought.
Speaker 3: She was just like yeah, I kind of like to
Speaker 3: play be like do this like BDSM type thing because
Speaker 3: it's it's what's it called again? The album man Man's
Speaker 3: Best Friend, Manchild's a song.
Speaker 4: I think the album's Man's Best Friend. Oh yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3: And people were like immediately going to do I mean,
Speaker 3: I was like I was my first take off of
Speaker 3: hearing it for two seconds and having to talk about
Speaker 3: it on another podcast was just kind of like, well
Speaker 3: that feminism is that you can do that if you want.
Speaker 3: Like if being treated like a dog is your feminist,
Speaker 3: Like is your kink and something that you actually think
Speaker 3: is hot, and you like you're allowed to have that.
Speaker 3: You're also allowed to God, you're allowed to be a
Speaker 3: trad wife. You're allowed to not be a trad wife.
Speaker 3: You know, like that's that is what feminism is. It's
Speaker 3: not just necessarily like saying that it has to be
Speaker 3: we all everything has to be impowered, like and you know,
Speaker 3: I've been reading people say stuff like everybody knows that
Speaker 3: like a submissive in a BDSM relationship has the power
Speaker 3: anyway in a way like that's this is like a
Speaker 3: land that a landscape I'm not super familiar with. But
Speaker 3: I was like, I mean, damn, if you're if your
Speaker 3: object is just to get people fucking talking and tongues wagon,
Speaker 3: you're doing a genius.
Speaker 4: I know. I just like it.
Speaker 1: The image does make me uncomfortable, and I watch pretty
Speaker 1: fucked up porn, I would say, I don't know for
Speaker 1: I don't because the people that are like saying there's
Speaker 1: more to it, I just that they're like it's satire.
Speaker 1: I don't see the satire, but I didn't think about
Speaker 1: it in the like kink kind of kink via, So
Speaker 1: do you let like like just asking what if it
Speaker 1: was like a girl's leg holding her hair. I don't know,
Speaker 1: just the it does make me uncomfortable because okay, it's
Speaker 1: kind of what we talked about with my special when
Speaker 1: like it was funny because I asked Netflix like, will
Speaker 1: you approve dumb bitch? Yeah, and they go, we love
Speaker 1: dumb bitch. We don't like night owl. And I was like,
Speaker 1: if this was a different era in time, it would
Speaker 1: be really fun to call it dumb bitch. But we're
Speaker 1: past the time of these things, because it's real when
Speaker 1: we're losing rights and we're losing a young generation of
Speaker 1: women that aren't going to college or learning and marrying
Speaker 1: very young and don't want to expand their brains to
Speaker 1: be at home and not knowing the full implications of
Speaker 1: what happens when you're forty five and maybe don't have
Speaker 1: any experience in the workforce or any knowledge all of
Speaker 1: these things. So it's like, and I talked about this
Speaker 1: on Stradio Lab with gay stuff too, where it's like
Speaker 1: it's hard sometimes to make jokes when we're living in
Speaker 1: an era that is that is really happening.
Speaker 3: That's an interesting argument. Now, that's a very interesting argument,
Speaker 3: Like cause to put that album cover coming out at
Speaker 3: the time that it's coming out, like if hairs, that's
Speaker 3: an a statement.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it would everything a statement when you're as famous
Speaker 4: as she is.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's not just like cutie baby, like ooh,
Speaker 3: isn't this kind of sexy and provocative like you are?
Speaker 3: Like that is an argument I had not thought of
Speaker 3: because I.
Speaker 4: Looked at all the ads and it is fine.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but what people other things online I
Speaker 1: was saying was like, the spin of this would be
Speaker 1: if like she was disrespecting a guy, like if a
Speaker 1: guy was on all fours being grabbed by their hair.
Speaker 1: But then with the kink element, it's like, yeah, she's
Speaker 1: into this, this is great.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: The pulling of the hair makes me uncomfortable with the
Speaker 1: satire with not whatever she's trying to flip. It's not
Speaker 1: flipping because it's happening right now, you know.
Speaker 4: What I mean.
Speaker 1: Women are being abused and losing their rights. So it's like,
Speaker 1: what is the joke, Like I you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like I don't get it, And then people are like,
Speaker 1: why won't anyone leave Sabrina Carboner alone. She's obviously not
Speaker 1: for the male gaze, and we talked about this where
Speaker 1: I go, she is dressing really provocative, but it is
Speaker 1: so girly. She's for the girls, and it's very clear
Speaker 1: and obvious, and the lyrics of her songs say that
Speaker 1: and all of it, And honestly, yeah, I'm into crawling around.
Speaker 4: I get that.
Speaker 1: I just my brain didn't go there because I was
Speaker 1: so uncomfortable with the image and if her goal is
Speaker 1: to make people uncomfortable with the violence against women, then
Speaker 1: I guess.
Speaker 4: She did it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if that was her goal, You're right, I mean
Speaker 3: you could read, you could read, you could fucking do
Speaker 3: a college course on this, Like this is like the
Speaker 3: semiotics of this image, like what you see, Like when
Speaker 3: you see this image, like shecuse her hair is getting pulled,
Speaker 3: but she doesn't necessarily look like she's in pain.
Speaker 4: She looks like she's having a good time, like yeah,
Speaker 4: you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: Like it's like if she was like even doing a
Speaker 3: little bit of a WinCE, it would be like fuck.
Speaker 4: That makes it a totally different image to me, you know,
Speaker 4: And I do like that.
Speaker 1: The guy, like what they do to women a lot
Speaker 1: where just a body part and you don't know who
Speaker 1: that is, Like yeah, it's pretty cool bodied man. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I know she's smart and you know cool. I
Speaker 1: just I want to know who the photography, who is
Speaker 1: the creative director? I wonder I would like to know
Speaker 1: if it was a guy or is it Terry Richardson?
Speaker 4: You know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I hope it's it was all her idea
Speaker 1: with her stylists and all of that, and obviously a
Speaker 1: lot of talk went into it. It's a full album
Speaker 1: cover and a whole new Yeah.
Speaker 3: And I was also talking about this when I was
Speaker 3: talking about this on another podcast, was like, if this
Speaker 3: is like coming this image is coming out in like
Speaker 3: ninety nine and it's Britney Spears, I'm a little bit
Speaker 3: like because like I never got the feeling that Britney
Speaker 3: Spears was in charge of anything in her career. That's
Speaker 3: like part of like the issue with how she was
Speaker 3: how she was being treated. But when I see like
Speaker 3: Taylor Sabrina, I feel like these girls are in charge
Speaker 3: of everything. And maybe that's an image that's incorrect, but
Speaker 3: like I get a feeling that she's in charge in
Speaker 3: that she probably had her hands all over this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like I'm looking at it.
Speaker 1: And I also don't like line when it's like like
Speaker 1: we should all have known, you just don't know. It's
Speaker 1: about fifties ads, you fucking idiots, and it's like, yeah, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I didn't know that. Now I'm looking at them, I'm
Speaker 1: taking it all in. But this idea that like you all.
Speaker 4: Knew immediately like where this was coming from. And if you.
Speaker 3: Don't, every girl I was born in the nineties was
Speaker 3: immediately making fifties out references.
Speaker 1: But if we weren't in the Maga era of going
Speaker 1: back to this. They are actively trying to take us
Speaker 1: back to this.
Speaker 3: That's okay, That's an argument that I think is very interesting. Anyway,
Speaker 3: this episode is obviously so fucked up, but like I said,
Speaker 3: when we were when we were recapping, like it is
Speaker 3: very interesting to me that even as far back as
Speaker 3: season one, this show was kind of like fucking with
Speaker 3: the idea of it's a cycle. Like a lot of
Speaker 3: this stuff is a cycle, and I know it's like
Speaker 3: not an excuse, but like in this specific episode, like
Speaker 3: this feels like a guy who was being absolutely coerced,
Speaker 3: like he's brainwashed by this man, and nobody thought about
Speaker 3: how it was that this white man moved into a
Speaker 3: black neighborhood and just started giving lessons to all the children.
Speaker 3: Like I'm just surprised that like no one caught on
Speaker 3: to this sooner, but I guess they were also focused.
Speaker 1: On Redo guzzamando, but damn it is. And congrats to
Speaker 1: the people who got my Marishka tickets.
Speaker 5: I hope you had fun.
Speaker 1: Oh I got damned people had fun, just two people,
Speaker 1: But yeah, I.
Speaker 4: Want to watch that. Is that out already? On Age
Speaker 4: it'll be out. Yeah, you just premiered. It just premiered, Yeah,
Speaker 4: yeah yeah, And I have a show tonight.
Speaker 1: But I've been having nightmares, like kind of with school
Speaker 1: since I took eight days off. I was on the
Speaker 1: trip that like I forgot all my jokes. Like I've
Speaker 1: been having nightmares where I'm on stage and I don't
Speaker 1: know any of my jokes and none of them are
Speaker 1: working and I can't get them out.
Speaker 4: Oh that's because you never take like long breaks.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 3: I actually just did a set on Saturday for the
Speaker 3: Cracked thing that people are doing.
Speaker 4: I saw some comics from I saw Tom.
Speaker 3: Takar I saw, but I wrote a bunch of new
Speaker 3: jokes for it, and I've been like working them out
Speaker 3: around town and was like, wow, I forgot how much
Speaker 3: I love stand up when I have new stuff, Like,
Speaker 3: you know, it's really fun, but.
Speaker 4: Okay, so funny.
Speaker 1: My sister said something like she doesn't understand why Brad
Speaker 1: or like, when you're that rich, why would you continue working?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, they like it, they like to make movies.
Speaker 1: But she she was like, I just I don't know
Speaker 1: they have enough. I'm like, I think it's weird to
Speaker 1: do commercials. But also if someone's giving you fifteen million
Speaker 1: dollars to hear a watch, I don't know why you wouldn't.
Speaker 3: But you always say when somebody is just like a
Speaker 3: NEPO that's super rich, why do they work at all?
Speaker 1: Well, I think they should just be more service oriented.
Speaker 1: I don't understand. Yeah, I don't understand the earth. And
Speaker 1: it's like do photography, do the stuff, but why do
Speaker 1: you have to make Like I don't get it, like
Speaker 1: do the thing, but there's no pressure on you. Like
Speaker 1: I just don't get why people with that much are
Speaker 1: not service minded in any capacity, Cause it's.
Speaker 4: Sudden to be like I need to make my mom
Speaker 4: proud of me.
Speaker 1: And it's like with a fashion line, you're sixty five,
Speaker 1: No one's a press, no one's impressed that you had
Speaker 1: other employees do something for you and put together this
Speaker 1: adult talent show.
Speaker 4: This is humiliating. Oh my god, oh my god. There's
Speaker 4: such a good read.
Speaker 1: I saw online and it was Tricia Pats played Radio
Speaker 1: City Music Hall. Yeah, I saw and so there was
Speaker 1: like a security guard. His face is like the confusion
Speaker 1: of like why is this adult for? Like what is that?
Speaker 4: What's happening? Because Radio City.
Speaker 1: Even if you don't get the PIP or something, there's
Speaker 1: like a level of prestige. I would say, if you
Speaker 1: perform there or like some sort of skill. But it's
Speaker 1: like just a woman singing poorly and the security guard
Speaker 1: is so confused.
Speaker 4: This is what happens when.
Speaker 1: You can eat a full pizza on YouTube and get
Speaker 1: people to be excited about that. I guess, well, but
Speaker 1: I like her, that's the thing. She's so good spirited.
Speaker 1: I also like, I love Brittany Broski. I like that
Speaker 1: the Kombuchi girl has like a whole umpire, Like I
Speaker 1: like her.
Speaker 3: You know, Brittany's so funny. She's like really talented and
Speaker 3: she's a great singer. I'm liking like I think her
Speaker 3: voice is great, but that it is funny when like
Speaker 3: somebody goes from like cause like you could either be
Speaker 3: Komuca girl for ten minutes, but she parlated into something
Speaker 3: more because she has talent, like Tan Mom.
Speaker 4: We don't have Tan Mom anymore. But it's kind of.
Speaker 1: Like Nikki's Glazer's Golden Globe joke too, where it's like
Speaker 1: the whole point of the arts is to become so
Speaker 1: successful that you make a tequila brand and never have
Speaker 1: to make art again. Yeah, you know, And it's all
Speaker 1: these people being like all of you are making money
Speaker 1: off Mexicans and tequila and everything, and you're fucking silent
Speaker 1: and don't how.
Speaker 4: I don't know. It's just I don't know.
Speaker 1: I've never been in a position where people want to
Speaker 1: give me money to do limited work and go into
Speaker 1: business like. I don't know, but I definitely understand. I
Speaker 1: want to work forever. It's like, I don't want to
Speaker 1: go to retire. I hope I like perform. I like it.
Speaker 3: I just got off the phone with my mom, who
Speaker 3: I told you retired a few months ago. She's looking
Speaker 3: for part time work. She's going to get a new
Speaker 3: certification and start to get a new My.
Speaker 4: Dad's back at the pool. Yeah, thirty one. It's good though.
Speaker 4: I think it's good for your mind.
Speaker 3: I think it's good for your spirit to like keep
Speaker 3: at something not like full time gruel, but like you
Speaker 3: know something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, hopefully people can still retire. Yeah, well hopefully we'll see. Well,
Speaker 1: maybe there'll be a special camp for them.
Speaker 3: When we all go to the camps, when we all
Speaker 3: go to the health camps. Our case sending us to
Speaker 3: health camps. It's gonna be great. Okay, let's get into
Speaker 3: what would Sister Peg Do? This is our weekly segment
Speaker 3: where we direct you towards an organization or a book,
Speaker 3: a documentary, something that has to do with today's episode
Speaker 3: that we covered today. We're gonna go move a little
Speaker 3: bit away from this. What we covered in today's episode,
Speaker 3: we have highlighted many, many organizations that deal with child
Speaker 3: abuse and child sexual abuse as well. So go back
Speaker 3: into our WWSPD highlight on our Instagram and you can
Speaker 3: scroll back into where there's three different highlights of all
Speaker 3: of our our what would Sister Peg dos? But today
Speaker 3: I really wanted to focus on an organization that's helping
Speaker 3: the situation here in Los Angeles with these ice raids,
Speaker 3: which I find to be so horrific. I have I'm
Speaker 3: I'm like helping a friend right now who's undocumented, who
Speaker 3: is like scared that she's going to be deported and
Speaker 3: not be able to be with her child. It's like
Speaker 3: so disgusting what they're doing. It's not I don't think.
Speaker 3: I don't think it's what some of these people voted for,
Speaker 3: but I think it's what a lot of them voted for.
Speaker 3: And it's unconstitutional and gross and not who we are
Speaker 3: as a country. So I'd like to point everybody to CHURLA,
Speaker 3: which is the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights. The organization
Speaker 3: was founded in nineteen eighty six to advance the human
Speaker 3: and civil rights of immigrants and refugees. It is based
Speaker 3: in Los Angeles. They organize communities to fight harmful policies
Speaker 3: and demand equity and justice from our government. They've been
Speaker 3: doing a lot during these raids and I really support
Speaker 3: their work, and I know my city council person does,
Speaker 3: and sort of a lot of the other city council
Speaker 3: people that I support. So for more information or to donate,
Speaker 3: head over to Cchirla dot org Curla dot org. And that,
Speaker 3: as always, will be in our what would Sister Pegg
Speaker 3: Do highlights on our Instagram page, which is That's Messed
Speaker 3: Up pod, and it's in our show notes, will be
Speaker 3: in our show notes as well.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for that.
Speaker 1: And next week we'll be doing Manhunt from season two,
Speaker 1: episode eighteen. So yeah, we're really sticking sticking to these
Speaker 1: early seasons.
Speaker 4: And it's a fun one. Oh yeah, it's scary, scary.
Speaker 1: We appreciate all of you Thank you for listening, caring
Speaker 1: about people around you, and messaging us and being supportive.
Speaker 4: We're upsided you guys rock. We'll see you next week. Hie.
Speaker 1: That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production. If you
Speaker 1: have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd
Speaker 1: like us to cover, shoot us an email it That's
Speaker 1: Messed uppod at gmail dot com. Listen to That's Messed
Speaker 1: Up on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's
Speaker 1: Messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at Kara Klank
Speaker 1: and at Glitter Cheese. As always, please see our show
Speaker 1: notes for sources and more information. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: to our senior producer Casey O'Brien and our associate producer
Speaker 1: Christina Chamberlain, and to our mixer John Bradley and our
Speaker 1: guest booker Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Kaperski for our
Speaker 1: theme song and Carly Geen Andrews for our artwork. Thank
Speaker 1: you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgarriff,
Speaker 1: Daniel Kramer and everybody at Exactly Right Media.
Speaker 5: Dun Dun