WEBVTT - A Female Engineer's Fight for Equal Pay at Google

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<v Speaker 1>In the spring of Kelly Ellis arrived for her first

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<v Speaker 1>day of work at Google. I think that a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people um back then and still now, consider Google

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<v Speaker 1>to be kind of a dream job. You always hear

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<v Speaker 1>about them in the news having all of these amazing perks,

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<v Speaker 1>and you see the pictures of like the nap pods

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<v Speaker 1>and the gym and all the food and everything. Kelly

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<v Speaker 1>was twenty five at the time, and she'd worked hard

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<v Speaker 1>to get there. She had the degree a minor and

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<v Speaker 1>computer science in college, and she had the experience four

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<v Speaker 1>years as a software engineer. Like every new hire, she

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<v Speaker 1>was given a colorful baseball cap with a propeller on it,

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<v Speaker 1>called a Noogler hat. Then she was whisked through orientation.

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<v Speaker 1>I was excited. Um, it was like a lot of information.

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<v Speaker 1>It was a lot to take in, but I was like,

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<v Speaker 1>this is going to be great. As one of Google's

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<v Speaker 1>twenty thousand or so employees at the time, Kelly dove

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<v Speaker 1>into the work, but it wasn't long before she started

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<v Speaker 1>noticing things that didn't sit well with her little hints

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<v Speaker 1>about salaries at Google, it seemed like her male colleagues

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<v Speaker 1>were making more money. I remember talking to other women

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<v Speaker 1>engineers about their similar frustrations. I think I just didn't

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<v Speaker 1>want to believe that Google could be evil. When it

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<v Speaker 1>comes down to it, Kelly isn't at Google anymore. When

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<v Speaker 1>she left, her plan was to put her experience behind

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<v Speaker 1>her and move on with her career. And that's just

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<v Speaker 1>what she did until other people, including the government, started

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<v Speaker 1>seeing the same red flags. Now Kelly finds herself in

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<v Speaker 1>a high profile battle against one of the largest companies

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<v Speaker 1>in the world. She's suing Google for discrimination. Hi. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Akio and I'm Ellen Hewittt. And this week on Decrypted,

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<v Speaker 1>we're taking a look at pay equity at one of

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<v Speaker 1>Silicon Valley's most celebrated companies. Kelly Ellis and three other

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<v Speaker 1>women are suing Google, and they're hoping to expand their

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<v Speaker 1>lawsuit into a class action case on behalf of thousands

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<v Speaker 1>of women who worked for the company. We partnered up

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<v Speaker 1>with The Revealed Podcasts from the Center for Investigative Reporting

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<v Speaker 1>and PRX to bring you this episode today Stay with us.

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<v Speaker 1>Kelly is on her second job since she left Google.

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<v Speaker 1>She works out of Oakland for a tech startup, and

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<v Speaker 1>we recently caught up over lunch. Hey, Hey, nice to

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<v Speaker 1>see you good, to see you good. I've been here

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<v Speaker 1>for lunch before. I haven't either. I've been following Kelly

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<v Speaker 1>on Twitter for years, way before this lawsuit started, because

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<v Speaker 1>she's been so vocal about her experience as a woman

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<v Speaker 1>in tech. She has a tiny old septum ring in

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<v Speaker 1>her nose and Where's glasses that she nudges with the

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<v Speaker 1>back of her hand. You want to do anything besides

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<v Speaker 1>the water. I'm surprised by how approachable she is in person,

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<v Speaker 1>because she's pretty salty online. Aki and I first met

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<v Speaker 1>Kelly at her lawyer's office and she talked to us

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<v Speaker 1>about her time at Google. She says that she started

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<v Speaker 1>seeing the warning signs almost immediately when she learned she'd

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<v Speaker 1>be working with what's called front end code. And that

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<v Speaker 1>was really really surprising to me because it was really

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<v Speaker 1>different from what I had been doing before. I would

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<v Speaker 1>say a lot of people in the software world looked

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<v Speaker 1>at front end engineering as something that like, you didn't

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<v Speaker 1>need a degree to do. This is an important distinction

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<v Speaker 1>in software engineering. Front End coding, which Kelly was assigned to,

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<v Speaker 1>focuses on what the consumer sees in their browser. Back

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<v Speaker 1>End coding interacts with the plumbing, like servers and databases,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's what Kelly had done before she came to Google,

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<v Speaker 1>and I very quickly noticed that that was where all

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<v Speaker 1>of my women colleagues were working, was in front of engineering.

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<v Speaker 1>So I was like, that's kind of annoying. But at

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<v Speaker 1>the same time I was still like, well, I'm at Google, though.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, at Google everyone has a level, starting at

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<v Speaker 1>level one for interns and hourly workers, up to level

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<v Speaker 1>ten or higher for top executives. The higher you are,

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<v Speaker 1>the more you tend to get paid, and Kelly started

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<v Speaker 1>to suspect that she was hired at the wrong level.

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<v Speaker 1>I had had another software engineer joined my same team

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<v Speaker 1>the week after I did, and he and I both

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<v Speaker 1>graduated in the same year, but he was level four

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<v Speaker 1>when I was level three. On top of that, there

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<v Speaker 1>was a whole group of new grads straight out of

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<v Speaker 1>college who joined a couple of months after Kelly. They

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<v Speaker 1>were all starting at the same level that I who

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<v Speaker 1>was at, and that was when I was like, this

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<v Speaker 1>feels wrong. But when I would ask people about it,

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<v Speaker 1>they would say, well, you know, we sometimes downslop people

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<v Speaker 1>and then we'll just correct it come promotion time. Kelly

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<v Speaker 1>applied for promotion. She says the committee reviewing her application

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<v Speaker 1>agreed she was doing the work of a level four,

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<v Speaker 1>but they didn't promote her because she hadn't been at

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<v Speaker 1>Google long enough to show an upward trajectory. And that

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<v Speaker 1>was when I realized, like that I was always going

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<v Speaker 1>to be playing catch up because like by the time

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<v Speaker 1>that I was going for promotion from four to five,

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<v Speaker 1>like the people who were four were already at level five.

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<v Speaker 1>So I was frustrated, but I was still like, well,

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<v Speaker 1>it's still Google, you know. Um, I don't think I

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<v Speaker 1>considered quitting. Did you even talk about that with a

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<v Speaker 1>man issure or maybe like an hr rep And not

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<v Speaker 1>with an hr rep but with managers? And again I

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<v Speaker 1>was just sort of told like trust the system, Like

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<v Speaker 1>it didn't seem like there was any remedy. Kelly later

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<v Speaker 1>did get promoted twice and was able to move into

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<v Speaker 1>a back end engineering team, but after four years, she

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<v Speaker 1>quit to go work for a smaller company where she

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<v Speaker 1>felt she'd have more opportunities to grow. She tried to

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<v Speaker 1>put her experiences at Google behind her. I kind of

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<v Speaker 1>always felt like, yes, this probably has something to do

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<v Speaker 1>with my gender, but I like fell through the cracks somehow,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, and my case isn't typical. Three years later,

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<v Speaker 1>in Kelly was browsing the news online when she saw

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<v Speaker 1>an article about a government investigation into Google. In a

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<v Speaker 1>court hearing, a lawyer with the Department of Labor said

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<v Speaker 1>that they had found evidence of systemic compensation disparities at

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<v Speaker 1>the company. I mean, I was like, but I was like, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>like now this is getting real. Um, And I read

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<v Speaker 1>the article and I was like, yep, yep, yep, yep.

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<v Speaker 1>Learning about the government's investigation made Kelly see her experience

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<v Speaker 1>in a different light. Around the same time, a San

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<v Speaker 1>Francisco lawyer named Jim Bimberg read about the same investigation.

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<v Speaker 1>Jim's a lawyer at the firm aut Schuler Burson, and

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<v Speaker 1>he specializes in workplace discrimination cases. He remembers how struck

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<v Speaker 1>he was by the statistical claims cited by the Department

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<v Speaker 1>of Labor about the alleged difference in what Google paid

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<v Speaker 1>women and what it paid men. The government found a

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<v Speaker 1>gap so significant that it was incredibly unlikely for it

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<v Speaker 1>to have happened by chance, basically about one and one

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<v Speaker 1>hundred million. Jim compares it to a coin toss. So

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<v Speaker 1>if I flip a coin, there's a one in two

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<v Speaker 1>chance that it will be heads. If I flip a

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<v Speaker 1>coin a thousand times and it's only had once out

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<v Speaker 1>of a thousand times, well that's a lot more suspicious

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<v Speaker 1>than if it's once out of two times. Jim discussed

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<v Speaker 1>the government's findings with a couple other lawyers, and they

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<v Speaker 1>decided to ask former and current Google employees to get

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<v Speaker 1>in touch if they were interested in talking. We put

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<v Speaker 1>a post on the internet and didn't necessarily think we

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<v Speaker 1>would get much of a response, but we got called

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<v Speaker 1>about who said, yeah, it's terrible women are paid less

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<v Speaker 1>and then for the same work. Kelly was one of

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<v Speaker 1>the women who saw Jim's post. She filled out an

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<v Speaker 1>online form and then met Jim and his colleagues to

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<v Speaker 1>tell her story in person, and she heard the other

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<v Speaker 1>women's stories too. I felt that I was finally realizing

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<v Speaker 1>that this wasn't a well intended accident. And I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>saying that they set out to discriminate against women, but

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<v Speaker 1>I fully believe that they know about the problem and

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<v Speaker 1>decided not to fix it. Kelly agreed to be a

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<v Speaker 1>named plaintiff, along with two other women represented by Jim.

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<v Speaker 1>The three women filed a lawsuit in September. In the complaint,

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<v Speaker 1>they said that Google pays women less than men for

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<v Speaker 1>equal or similar work. They also said that the company

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<v Speaker 1>puts women on career paths with lower pace ceilings. The

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<v Speaker 1>lawsuit made international news Welcome back Alphabet investors just storting

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<v Speaker 1>shaking off concerns over the gender discrimination lawsuit filed against

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<v Speaker 1>Google yesterday. According to lawsuit accuses Google of paid discrimination

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<v Speaker 1>against women. Three women who used to work for Google

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<v Speaker 1>file the suit yesterday. They claimed the tech join Google

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<v Speaker 1>the line our request for an interview, but the company

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<v Speaker 1>has denied the allegations detailed in the lawsuit. The company

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<v Speaker 1>published a blog post last month that addressed pay equity

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<v Speaker 1>and the results are very different from the government's findings

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<v Speaker 1>that we told you about earlier. Google said it reviewed

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<v Speaker 1>the salaries of of its workforce. It excluded the jobs

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<v Speaker 1>that it said weren't held by enough workers for the

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<v Speaker 1>company to run a reliable analysis. For the job categories

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<v Speaker 1>it examined. Google says it found a pay gap among

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<v Speaker 1>a tiny group of workers. The company says it has

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<v Speaker 1>since closed that gap. Hey good, Welcome to the Superior Court.

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<v Speaker 1>Just the other week, the latest hearing in Kelly's lawsuit

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<v Speaker 1>took place in San Francisco. I met up with Jim,

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<v Speaker 1>the lawyer, outside the courthouse. Jim has big plans for

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<v Speaker 1>the lawsuit. He wants it to be a class action case.

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<v Speaker 1>Today's here ring is to discuss the number of jobs

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<v Speaker 1>that the proposed class action would cover. Thank you, good

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<v Speaker 1>morning please. Jim's team argues that thirty different jobs should

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<v Speaker 1>be included. Google's lawyers argue for a smaller number. The

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<v Speaker 1>judge Mary Wiss rules in favor of Kelly and the

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<v Speaker 1>other plaintiffs. I catch up with Kelly afterwards. Hey, so

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know if it was it good? Yeah, it's good.

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<v Speaker 1>And how does it feel to you a personally? Um? Good?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean it just feels kind of like another step

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<v Speaker 1>in the journey. You know, There's there's a lot more

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<v Speaker 1>to go, and so it's not like it feels like

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<v Speaker 1>a victory really, but it was a the result that

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<v Speaker 1>we're hoping for. And I have to get to work. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not gonna go back to work. YEA. Pursuing this

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<v Speaker 1>case hasn't come without its costs. Because of how vocal

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<v Speaker 1>she's been on gender issues. Kelly's faced a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>online harassment over the years, and the lawsuit elevated her

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<v Speaker 1>profile even more. What are the kind of things that

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<v Speaker 1>the online trolls say to you? I mean, it's anything

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<v Speaker 1>from you know, the wage gap isn't real, get back

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<v Speaker 1>in the kitchen and make me a sandwich, to like

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<v Speaker 1>you deserve to be raped, to teach you a lesson about,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, going after tech companies because you couldn't cut

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<v Speaker 1>it as an engineer. Recently, one of the men who

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<v Speaker 1>threatened her online got ahold of her phone number and

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<v Speaker 1>started calling her. When she told him to stop, he

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<v Speaker 1>told Kelly that he was in her neighborhood and mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>a restaurant on her block. She filed a restraining order

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<v Speaker 1>against him. But despite all of that, she says she

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<v Speaker 1>still doesn't regret speaking up and so like lucky to

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<v Speaker 1>have had all the opportunities UM that landed me in

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<v Speaker 1>this career. A lot of that comes from my privilege,

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<v Speaker 1>and I really want other people to have the opportunity

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<v Speaker 1>because I do think that like technology is the future

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<v Speaker 1>of the economy, and I wanted to be available to

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<v Speaker 1>everyone and for everyone to have the chance to succeed.

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<v Speaker 1>UM and if you know entire groups of people are

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<v Speaker 1>being compensated unfairly or not given the same opportunities because

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<v Speaker 1>of factors that they can't help, then that's not the

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<v Speaker 1>kind of industry I want to be in. For now,

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<v Speaker 1>Kelly's trying to live her life as normally as possible,

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<v Speaker 1>going to work, hanging out with friends as she waits

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<v Speaker 1>for the suit to move forward. Jim expects to file

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<v Speaker 1>a motion on her behalf early next year to get

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<v Speaker 1>the case certified as a class action suit. If approved,

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<v Speaker 1>that would open it up to thousands of women who've

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<v Speaker 1>worked at Google. And that's it for this week's episode

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<v Speaker 1>of Decrypted. Thanks for listening. Are you a woman in

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<v Speaker 1>the tech industry. We'd love to hear your story. You

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<v Speaker 1>can send us an email at Decrypted at Bloomberg dot net.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm on Twitter at Ellen Hewitt, and I'm at aki

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<v Speaker 1>Itto seven. Please consider leaving us a rating and a

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<v Speaker 1>review on Apple Podcasts or any of your favorite podcasts apps.

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<v Speaker 1>It really helps us find new listeners. Today's episode was

0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:42.200
<v Speaker 1>produced in collaboration with the Reveal podcast from the Center

0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:46.440
<v Speaker 1>for Investigative Reporting and pr X. Thank you to our producers,

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<v Speaker 1>Pia Getkari Magnus Hendrickson and Liz Smith, as well as

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<v Speaker 1>Taki Telenitas, Katherine Muskowski, Kevin Sullivan, Jim Briggs, Fernando Aruda

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<v Speaker 1>and Buenda Josa from the team at Reveal. Francesco Leavie

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<v Speaker 1>is head of Boomberg Podcasts. We'll see you next week.

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<v Speaker 1>M m hm