1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: In the spring of Kelly Ellis arrived for her first 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: day of work at Google. I think that a lot 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: of people um back then and still now, consider Google 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: to be kind of a dream job. You always hear 5 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: about them in the news having all of these amazing perks, 6 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: and you see the pictures of like the nap pods 7 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: and the gym and all the food and everything. Kelly 8 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: was twenty five at the time, and she'd worked hard 9 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: to get there. She had the degree a minor and 10 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,480 Speaker 1: computer science in college, and she had the experience four 11 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: years as a software engineer. Like every new hire, she 12 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: was given a colorful baseball cap with a propeller on it, 13 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: called a Noogler hat. Then she was whisked through orientation. 14 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: I was excited. Um, it was like a lot of information. 15 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:49,279 Speaker 1: It was a lot to take in, but I was like, 16 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: this is going to be great. As one of Google's 17 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: twenty thousand or so employees at the time, Kelly dove 18 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,639 Speaker 1: into the work, but it wasn't long before she started 19 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: noticing things that didn't sit well with her little hints 20 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 1: about salaries at Google, it seemed like her male colleagues 21 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: were making more money. I remember talking to other women 22 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: engineers about their similar frustrations. I think I just didn't 23 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: want to believe that Google could be evil. When it 24 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: comes down to it, Kelly isn't at Google anymore. When 25 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: she left, her plan was to put her experience behind 26 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: her and move on with her career. And that's just 27 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:33,960 Speaker 1: what she did until other people, including the government, started 28 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: seeing the same red flags. Now Kelly finds herself in 29 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: a high profile battle against one of the largest companies 30 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: in the world. She's suing Google for discrimination. Hi. I'm 31 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: Akio and I'm Ellen Hewittt. And this week on Decrypted, 32 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: we're taking a look at pay equity at one of 33 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley's most celebrated companies. Kelly Ellis and three other 34 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: women are suing Google, and they're hoping to expand their 35 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: lawsuit into a class action case on behalf of thousands 36 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: of women who worked for the company. We partnered up 37 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 1: with The Revealed Podcasts from the Center for Investigative Reporting 38 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: and PRX to bring you this episode today Stay with us. 39 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: Kelly is on her second job since she left Google. 40 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: She works out of Oakland for a tech startup, and 41 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,799 Speaker 1: we recently caught up over lunch. Hey, Hey, nice to 42 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 1: see you good, to see you good. I've been here 43 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: for lunch before. I haven't either. I've been following Kelly 44 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 1: on Twitter for years, way before this lawsuit started, because 45 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: she's been so vocal about her experience as a woman 46 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: in tech. She has a tiny old septum ring in 47 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: her nose and Where's glasses that she nudges with the 48 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 1: back of her hand. You want to do anything besides 49 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: the water. I'm surprised by how approachable she is in person, 50 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,399 Speaker 1: because she's pretty salty online. Aki and I first met 51 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: Kelly at her lawyer's office and she talked to us 52 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: about her time at Google. She says that she started 53 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: seeing the warning signs almost immediately when she learned she'd 54 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: be working with what's called front end code. And that 55 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: was really really surprising to me because it was really 56 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: different from what I had been doing before. I would 57 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: say a lot of people in the software world looked 58 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: at front end engineering as something that like, you didn't 59 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: need a degree to do. This is an important distinction 60 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: in software engineering. Front End coding, which Kelly was assigned to, 61 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: focuses on what the consumer sees in their browser. Back 62 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: End coding interacts with the plumbing, like servers and databases, 63 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: and that's what Kelly had done before she came to Google, 64 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: and I very quickly noticed that that was where all 65 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: of my women colleagues were working, was in front of engineering. 66 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: So I was like, that's kind of annoying. But at 67 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: the same time I was still like, well, I'm at Google, though. 68 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: You know, at Google everyone has a level, starting at 69 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: level one for interns and hourly workers, up to level 70 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: ten or higher for top executives. The higher you are, 71 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: the more you tend to get paid, and Kelly started 72 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 1: to suspect that she was hired at the wrong level. 73 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: I had had another software engineer joined my same team 74 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: the week after I did, and he and I both 75 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: graduated in the same year, but he was level four 76 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: when I was level three. On top of that, there 77 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 1: was a whole group of new grads straight out of 78 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: college who joined a couple of months after Kelly. They 79 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: were all starting at the same level that I who 80 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 1: was at, and that was when I was like, this 81 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: feels wrong. But when I would ask people about it, 82 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: they would say, well, you know, we sometimes downslop people 83 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 1: and then we'll just correct it come promotion time. Kelly 84 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: applied for promotion. She says the committee reviewing her application 85 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: agreed she was doing the work of a level four, 86 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: but they didn't promote her because she hadn't been at 87 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: Google long enough to show an upward trajectory. And that 88 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: was when I realized, like that I was always going 89 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: to be playing catch up because like by the time 90 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: that I was going for promotion from four to five, 91 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: like the people who were four were already at level five. 92 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: So I was frustrated, but I was still like, well, 93 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: it's still Google, you know. Um, I don't think I 94 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: considered quitting. Did you even talk about that with a 95 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 1: man issure or maybe like an hr rep And not 96 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: with an hr rep but with managers? And again I 97 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 1: was just sort of told like trust the system, Like 98 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 1: it didn't seem like there was any remedy. Kelly later 99 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: did get promoted twice and was able to move into 100 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: a back end engineering team, but after four years, she 101 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: quit to go work for a smaller company where she 102 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 1: felt she'd have more opportunities to grow. She tried to 103 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: put her experiences at Google behind her. I kind of 104 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 1: always felt like, yes, this probably has something to do 105 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 1: with my gender, but I like fell through the cracks somehow, 106 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 1: you know, and my case isn't typical. Three years later, 107 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: in Kelly was browsing the news online when she saw 108 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: an article about a government investigation into Google. In a 109 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: court hearing, a lawyer with the Department of Labor said 110 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: that they had found evidence of systemic compensation disparities at 111 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:02,919 Speaker 1: the company. I mean, I was like, but I was like, okay, 112 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: like now this is getting real. Um, And I read 113 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: the article and I was like, yep, yep, yep, yep. 114 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: Learning about the government's investigation made Kelly see her experience 115 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: in a different light. Around the same time, a San 116 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: Francisco lawyer named Jim Bimberg read about the same investigation. 117 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: Jim's a lawyer at the firm aut Schuler Burson, and 118 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: he specializes in workplace discrimination cases. He remembers how struck 119 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: he was by the statistical claims cited by the Department 120 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: of Labor about the alleged difference in what Google paid 121 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: women and what it paid men. The government found a 122 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: gap so significant that it was incredibly unlikely for it 123 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: to have happened by chance, basically about one and one 124 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: hundred million. Jim compares it to a coin toss. So 125 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: if I flip a coin, there's a one in two 126 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: chance that it will be heads. If I flip a 127 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: coin a thousand times and it's only had once out 128 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: of a thousand times, well that's a lot more suspicious 129 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: than if it's once out of two times. Jim discussed 130 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: the government's findings with a couple other lawyers, and they 131 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: decided to ask former and current Google employees to get 132 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: in touch if they were interested in talking. We put 133 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: a post on the internet and didn't necessarily think we 134 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: would get much of a response, but we got called 135 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: about who said, yeah, it's terrible women are paid less 136 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 1: and then for the same work. Kelly was one of 137 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: the women who saw Jim's post. She filled out an 138 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 1: online form and then met Jim and his colleagues to 139 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: tell her story in person, and she heard the other 140 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: women's stories too. I felt that I was finally realizing 141 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 1: that this wasn't a well intended accident. And I'm not 142 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: saying that they set out to discriminate against women, but 143 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: I fully believe that they know about the problem and 144 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: decided not to fix it. Kelly agreed to be a 145 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: named plaintiff, along with two other women represented by Jim. 146 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,599 Speaker 1: The three women filed a lawsuit in September. In the complaint, 147 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: they said that Google pays women less than men for 148 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: equal or similar work. They also said that the company 149 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: puts women on career paths with lower pace ceilings. The 150 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: lawsuit made international news Welcome back Alphabet investors just storting 151 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: shaking off concerns over the gender discrimination lawsuit filed against 152 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: Google yesterday. According to lawsuit accuses Google of paid discrimination 153 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 1: against women. Three women who used to work for Google 154 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: file the suit yesterday. They claimed the tech join Google 155 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: the line our request for an interview, but the company 156 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: has denied the allegations detailed in the lawsuit. The company 157 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: published a blog post last month that addressed pay equity 158 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: and the results are very different from the government's findings 159 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 1: that we told you about earlier. Google said it reviewed 160 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: the salaries of of its workforce. It excluded the jobs 161 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: that it said weren't held by enough workers for the 162 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: company to run a reliable analysis. For the job categories 163 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: it examined. Google says it found a pay gap among 164 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: a tiny group of workers. The company says it has 165 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: since closed that gap. Hey good, Welcome to the Superior Court. 166 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: Just the other week, the latest hearing in Kelly's lawsuit 167 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 1: took place in San Francisco. I met up with Jim, 168 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: the lawyer, outside the courthouse. Jim has big plans for 169 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: the lawsuit. He wants it to be a class action case. 170 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: Today's here ring is to discuss the number of jobs 171 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: that the proposed class action would cover. Thank you, good 172 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: morning please. Jim's team argues that thirty different jobs should 173 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: be included. Google's lawyers argue for a smaller number. The 174 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: judge Mary Wiss rules in favor of Kelly and the 175 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: other plaintiffs. I catch up with Kelly afterwards. Hey, so 176 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: I don't know if it was it good? Yeah, it's good. 177 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: And how does it feel to you a personally? Um? Good? 178 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: I mean it just feels kind of like another step 179 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: in the journey. You know, There's there's a lot more 180 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: to go, and so it's not like it feels like 181 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: a victory really, but it was a the result that 182 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: we're hoping for. And I have to get to work. Yeah, 183 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna go back to work. YEA. Pursuing this 184 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: case hasn't come without its costs. Because of how vocal 185 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: she's been on gender issues. Kelly's faced a lot of 186 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: online harassment over the years, and the lawsuit elevated her 187 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: profile even more. What are the kind of things that 188 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: the online trolls say to you? I mean, it's anything 189 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: from you know, the wage gap isn't real, get back 190 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: in the kitchen and make me a sandwich, to like 191 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: you deserve to be raped, to teach you a lesson about, 192 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: you know, going after tech companies because you couldn't cut 193 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: it as an engineer. Recently, one of the men who 194 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: threatened her online got ahold of her phone number and 195 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: started calling her. When she told him to stop, he 196 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: told Kelly that he was in her neighborhood and mentioned 197 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: a restaurant on her block. She filed a restraining order 198 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: against him. But despite all of that, she says she 199 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: still doesn't regret speaking up and so like lucky to 200 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: have had all the opportunities UM that landed me in 201 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 1: this career. A lot of that comes from my privilege, 202 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: and I really want other people to have the opportunity 203 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: because I do think that like technology is the future 204 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,199 Speaker 1: of the economy, and I wanted to be available to 205 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: everyone and for everyone to have the chance to succeed. 206 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: UM and if you know entire groups of people are 207 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: being compensated unfairly or not given the same opportunities because 208 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:37,439 Speaker 1: of factors that they can't help, then that's not the 209 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 1: kind of industry I want to be in. For now, 210 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: Kelly's trying to live her life as normally as possible, 211 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: going to work, hanging out with friends as she waits 212 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,079 Speaker 1: for the suit to move forward. Jim expects to file 213 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: a motion on her behalf early next year to get 214 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: the case certified as a class action suit. If approved, 215 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: that would open it up to thousands of women who've 216 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: worked at Google. And that's it for this week's episode 217 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 1: of Decrypted. Thanks for listening. Are you a woman in 218 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: the tech industry. We'd love to hear your story. You 219 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: can send us an email at Decrypted at Bloomberg dot net. 220 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at Ellen Hewitt, and I'm at aki 221 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: Itto seven. Please consider leaving us a rating and a 222 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: review on Apple Podcasts or any of your favorite podcasts apps. 223 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: It really helps us find new listeners. Today's episode was 224 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: produced in collaboration with the Reveal podcast from the Center 225 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: for Investigative Reporting and pr X. Thank you to our producers, 226 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: Pia Getkari Magnus Hendrickson and Liz Smith, as well as 227 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: Taki Telenitas, Katherine Muskowski, Kevin Sullivan, Jim Briggs, Fernando Aruda 228 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: and Buenda Josa from the team at Reveal. Francesco Leavie 229 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: is head of Boomberg Podcasts. We'll see you next week. 230 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: M m hm