WEBVTT - The Tylenol Murders, Part II 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:03.520 Welcome to Stuff You should know, a production of five 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:12.600 Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:15.440 I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, There's guest 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.680 producer Josh over there. Guess enough with the pleasant trees. 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:23.920 Let's get back to it Chuck. Thailand All Murders, Part two. 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:28.640 If you did not listen to the first part, seven 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:35.560 people were murdered by ingesting Thailand, all tainted with cyanide 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:38.520 on the same day, all on the same day. America 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:42.360 and much of the world is super freaked out. Johnson 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:46.240 and Johnson is the manufacturer, and part one of part 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:49.959 two has a deal with Johnson and Johnson and how 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:53.200 they handled this in a public relations sort of way, 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:57.880 because there were and are a huge company. Like you 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:01.120 said in the episode one, they held thirty seven percent 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:04.240 of the market share, which was many hundreds of millions 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:06.920 of dollars of Thailand all that they're selling every year, 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:12.600 and that's right, which is like gazillions now, So it 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:15.039 was a very big deal for that company. And the 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:18.880 way they handled it is taught in colleges and pr 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:23.520 classes all over the world as exactly how to handle 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:28.360 a big public relations crisis like this, like it's literally 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:31.479 called a textbook example of how how it's done. Yeah, 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:35.480 they did a good job because, as you remember from 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:39.280 the last episode, they found out pretty sure early on 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:43.840 that this had nothing to do with Johnson and Johnson, right, Like, 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:46.039 it wasn't in their factory, wasn't in their supply chain. 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:50.800 That happened almost certainly, and that it probably happened by 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:53.360 some crazed person taking them out of the store, tainting 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:55.560 them maybe in the store in the parking lot, then 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:58.360 putting them back on the shelf. But Johnson Johnson can't 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:00.880 come out on the news and say, hey, wasn't us 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:04.200 right Well, at first, though, and this this gets overlooked 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:07.400 and left out of the college business courses, in the 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:11.160 PR courses. At first, Johnson and Johnson was not in 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:15.919 favor of a massive recall. Well, it looks good in 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:18.520 one way but bad in another. And they actually didn't 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:23.320 recall anything until Mayor Jane Byrne held her press conference 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:27.400 on Friday calling for a recall of the Thailand all 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:32.040 in Chicago, and Johnson and Johnson did a little face palm, 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:36.000 and yes, we're recalling all of the Thailand all in Chicago. Yes, 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:41.400 what she said, right, So by Friday, uh, the thirty 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:44.000 one of September is their thirty one in September? Was 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:47.560 this October one? I have no idea. I think it 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:52.600 was October one. Anyway, By the Friday, two days after 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:56.160 the death, the death um Johnson and Johnson recalled all 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:58.560 of the Thailand all in Chicago. And that should have 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:01.399 been enough to them. That was in a but this 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:06.000 PR crisis was so massive and spread so fast, and 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:10.000 like we said earlier in Part one, became global almost overnight. 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:13.799 It was not enough. And so Johnson and Johnson, within 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:19.639 a week of the deaths, recalled every bottle of extra 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:22.840 strength taile and all in the United States, which is 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.480 worth about a hundred million dollars at the time, took 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:32.200 it back to their factories and destroyed it. So they say, right, uh, yeah, 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:35.720 both Johnson and Johnson, right. I wonder if one of 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:38.720 them was like, I don't know about this. They're one 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:41.240 of them said Okay, I'll take all the states west 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:44.119 of the Mississippi, North Dakota, South Dakota, and some Wyoming, 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:47.120 and then you take all the other states. That's a 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:49.840 that's a Part one joke. Uh, they even got an 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:54.280 award the Public Relations Society of America, which is a 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:58.080 real thing, I believe it or not. They awarded them 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:00.720 their Silver and bul award. Or how they handle the 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:05.160 crisis the Thailand All poisoning, that's right, and um high 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:09.800 grade foods. Remember we talked about the bad Wieners in 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:13.840 the first episode the ballpark. Frank sip Um supposedly had 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:17.240 razor blades but did not. That still created a public 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:19.600 relations crisis for them, even though they were just these 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:24.240 little jerks in Detroit. And uh, they won the Golden Anvil, 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:28.480 which is one higher than silver because of how they 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:31.800 handled the pr crisis brought about by the copycats of 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:34.799 the actual taile in All crisis, which was in fact 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:38.679 really brought about by two jerk kids in Detroit really 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.320 not even copycats, not the thaile in All crisis. I 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:45.200 wonder where those kids are today, probably in the Senate. 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:47.120 I bet one of them was the guy who did 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:54.200 our our lighting at our Detroit show. There was a smoke. Yeah, guys, 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:56.040 we we did the show in Detroit a few years ago, 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:59.360 and um, very famously we still use that as the 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:03.080 standard or for a bad crew. Bad We had a 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:07.160 guy that looked like a former roadie for your Riyah 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:11.400 Heap that was running like a light show basically during 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:13.520 the middle of our podcast, and like smoke came out. 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:15.560 We were like, we had to stop the show, almost 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:18.040 like dude, what are you doing? Yeah, well the lighting 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:21.720 was so bad that your highlighter had turned like brown 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:25.320 and you could and you asked him, we had to 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:27.600 stop the show and you had to ask him to 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:31.719 use a different color light. And his response, because Umi 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:33.760 was hanging out and our friend Chris Bowman was hanging 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:36.600 out in the sound booth with the guy, his response, 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:39.120 according to them, was who wants smoke. I'll give him 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:42.640 some more smoke. And we got some more smoke like 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:45.600 a smoke machine man. And people ask us why we 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.200 haven't been back to Detroit. That's a big reason. It's 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:53.000 a big reason. Not the only reason. Uh. Okay, So 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:56.920 they won the Golden Anvil for the Wiener pr moves. 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:02.640 UM McNeil Consumer Products, which is a subsidiary of Johnson 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:05.120 and Johnson. They actually make Thailand. All yeah, they make 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:07.960 the pills again. The way this all this supply chain 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:11.800 works is really convoluted. Um and uh, like you said, 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:14.120 they didn't want to recall Johnson Johnson everything at first. 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:15.839 They want to kind of take it a little slower, 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:19.320 I guess um, because they found out the drugs are 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:22.279 actually fine, right thanks to Pinky McFarland. This is a 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:25.640 hundred million dollars worth of stock that they were kind 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:28.160 of feeling the pressure to recall it's right, So they 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:30.839 were kind of reluctant at first, especially if they were 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:33.960 convinced that there was nothing wrong with the rest of them. 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:36.760 They had no choice, no, that was the only way 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:39.600 to do it was to lose a lot of money 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:43.960 and in favor of future gains. Yeah, but even at 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:46.200 the time, a lot of people were like, this is 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:48.880 it for taile and All. The public has lost faith 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:52.600 in thailan All. So when thailan All recalled thirty one million, 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:55.479 fifty count bottles of extra strength taile and All and 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.839 destroyed at All, there was a chance that not only 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:00.919 were they losing a hundred million million dollars, but that 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:03.560 they were losing a hundred billion dollars of a brand 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:07.240 that had already lost the public trust and would never 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:11.080 regain it. So, which wasn't true. But no, but they 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:13.160 didn't necessarily know that at the time it was still 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:16.480 up in the air. Um. So they it was basically 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:21.400 thirty one million sacrificial lambs that were killed to show 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:24.480 the public this tainted Title and All has gone forever. 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:28.080 Your chances of dying from taking extra strength Title and 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:31.080 All are now gone. You can go back to taking 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:33.000 tile and all. Now, that was one thing, and that 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:36.320 was a big gesture, but which is what it amounted to. 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:38.680 It was a gesture on behalf of Johnson and Johnson. 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:40.800 But they did other stuff too. They started to do 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:44.080 things right out of their reluctance. Once they finally said 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:47.520 there we have to just go with this to save 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:50.360 face and to win back public trust, they started to 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:53.240 do things right, like including like setting up a hotline 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:58.400 putting out a hundred thousand dollar reward for information how 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:01.680 much they had lost already none ted. Two dollars still 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:05.200 jump change it's it is yeah, and that remains unclaimed. 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:09.160 It does. Um but they But because of all this, 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:12.720 Johnson and Johnson managed to regain the public trust and 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:17.880 actually managed to position itself as a victim in all 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:19.800 of this. Like yes, there were these which they were 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:23.320 seven murder victims, and Johnson and Johnson I don't think 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:25.600 ever tried to push them out of the spotlight, but 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:28.640 they also managed to portray themselves as the victim of 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:30.880 a of a mad poisoner who may or may not 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:33.720 have something out for them, but either way, their brand 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:35.839 was taking a huge hit because of this, and they 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:38.840 were a victim. And we're able to generate public sympathy, 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:43.480 which is part of the road to regaining the public trust, 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:47.839 which is why it's taught NPR classes. So, um, we'll 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:50.800 take you back to two if you're if you weren't 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:54.640 around then or old enough to be taking uh OTC 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:57.720 pills and pain relievers. OTC is over the counter, by 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:00.560 the way. That's right, Okay, you're done with OTTC. Yeah 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:04.680 you know me so dumb. Uh. I love that you 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:07.120 played along, though I appreciate it, you could have made 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:12.000 me feel stupid. We've been partners for eleven years almost now. Yeah, 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:15.840 that'd be when next month or this month? Right? Yeah, 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:21.800 unbelievable So uh not not in that way. Okay. So 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:23.520 here's how it used to happen. If you wanted to 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:25.840 take a pill like a tail and all you would, 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:30.080 um get your bottle. You would pop it open with 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:33.160 your thumb first. First it came in a little box. Sure, 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:36.400 but the box wasn't even glued shut. Um, you would 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:38.719 pop it open with your finger. You would take out 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:41.080 the cotton in there, and you would take your pill. 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:44.199 It was that easy. There was no tamper proofing, there 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:48.000 was no The cotton was completely superfluous at this time. Yeah. 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:52.160 Cotton originally was introduced to keep bear aspirin like the 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:57.800 hard tablets from getting crushed in transport. Yeah, and since 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:00.480 they started using capsules and other stuff in figured out 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:03.160 how to strengthen tablets, there was no reason for the 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:07.720 cotton any longer, but because consumers expected it. Still today, 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:10.719 you'll find cotton in your and your pills. There's no 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:13.680 reason for it to be there except because the companies 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:15.599 know that you wanted to be there. You might be 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:19.400 weirded out if there wasn't cotton in your pills. Imagine 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:21.360 the cotton lobby had something to do with that too. Well, 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:24.760 I'll bet they're not. They're not complaining, you know, so 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:29.760 um big cotton. They should uh new fancy otc pills 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:32.959 should have micromodal in there. Right, it just comes with 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:35.480 a pair of me and the stuffed into your film bottle. 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:41.079 You're like, these have been worn so uh, this was 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:43.280 a time. It was a very innocent time previous to 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:46.240 this where you could like and you pointed this out. 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:48.840 I remember seeing this in grocery stores, like I remember 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:54.520 seeing mothers and grocery stores opening food products and smelling them. Yes, 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:57.839 that's what you could do, and then closing it back 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:00.000 and putting it back on the shelf. There's a little 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:01.880 a mold in this one, yeah, and I'll just leave 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.760 it for the next person. Forget poisoning like that. These 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:07.280 they could be spitting in this stuff. It was allowed. 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:10.679 That's just the way it was like there was. America 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:16.160 was innocent enough that that was fine. That's how we lived. 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:19.600 And that sets up this tail and all poisoning. It 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:24.640 really shows how much of a jarring experience it was 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:28.360 for America because all of a sudden, like it's finally 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:31.560 sunk in in a couple of days, there's something wrong 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:33.440 with the thaile and all. Somebody has gone out of 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:36.320 their way to poison the tail and all in order 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:39.560 to randomly kill people. And the reason they were able 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:42.480 to do this because there it's easy to to get 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.760 into the taile and all tamper with it, put it back, 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:48.400 and no one will be any any any more. The 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:51.640 wiser and wait, it's not just taile and all. Milk 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:55.000 doesn't have anything that that keeps it tamper resistant. New, 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:58.320 there's orange juice, new, there's cereal. New, there does um 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:04.280 cottage cheese? Enough does? And America for wreaked out. And 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:06.560 this is the reason why this Taile and All poisoning 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:11.160 is considered widely the first incident of domestic terrorism in 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:14.959 the United States, because it was terrorism, pure and simple. 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:18.320 America was terrified. They were petrified not only to take 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:21.559 Thailand All or any over the counter medicine, now they 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.600 were petrified to drink milk or give milk to their kids. 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:27.160 Paula Prince, the flight attendant who was the last one 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:30.000 to die in Chicago, she had a coworker who said, 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:32.760 like everything looked tainted now, I was afraid to give 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:34.880 my kids milk. I was afraid to give my kids cereal. 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:37.040 If they could get to the title tail and all, 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:40.320 they could poison anything. And that was really emblematic of 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:43.720 the the attitude, the shock that everybody went through. And 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:47.240 as a result, within six weeks, Thailand all said we 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:51.040 got this coverage. Yeah, and I have a feeling they 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:53.160 did this so fast. There had to have been this 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:55.400 idea in place already. It was I saw, I saw 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:57.520 a reference that it was, and I imagine it was 0:12:57.559 --> 0:12:59.439 not done because they were like, well, that's a lot 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:01.760 of money, and why why would we bother. It's like, 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.760 it's not like someone's gonna poison the medicine. And then 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:08.160 that happened. So within six weeks they had a box 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:11.640 that was actually glued shut, so if your little box 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:13.600 had been opened, you would be able to tell yeah, 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:15.480 that was that was part one of three of this 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:19.480 tamper resistant packaging. That little plastic seal over the top 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:21.880 of the bottle after you open it. Uh oh no, No, 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:24.800 the the plastic is over the cap on the outside 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:27.320 of the bottle. Yeah, like the plastic foil, and then 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:30.840 the uh, the actual foil was over the mouth of 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:32.719 the bottle that we all have to poke through now 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:36.120 to pull out the cotton and whatever still uses cotton. 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:40.120 None of that existed until the beginning of nine. So 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:44.600 all three of these are put in place within six weeks. Uh. 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:46.880 Not only that, they said, you know what, we're going 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:50.160 to introduce the caplet, which everyone knows now it was 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:52.679 we didn't have them back then. Everything was a little 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:55.440 capsule that you could literally pull apart and you could 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:58.760 snort the Thailand all if you wanted to. Quite sure 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:02.280 some people did. I'm sure someone did. But the caplet is, 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:04.480 you know, a tablet coated with an easy to swallow 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:08.839 a gelatine. It's solid, it's um. I imagine you could 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:11.520 tamper with it. And even I even saw with all 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:14.280 these things in place, they said, nothing is tamper proof. 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:17.800 But these measures really went a long way to restore 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:21.200 the public, uh, you know, well, like the good feelings 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:23.760 about what was going on. Yeah, within about a year, 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:27.400 tailand all Or Johnson and Johnson managed to win the 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:30.840 public's trust back in Thailand. All that's hard to believe. Yeah, 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:33.400 that was really fast. But it also goes to show 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:36.760 like just how perfectly they did everything from that from 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:38.960 the time they committed to it on. Yeah, and I 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:42.840 feel like I remember like commercials with CEOs and stuff 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:46.320 addressing the public. He became I can't remember his name. 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:48.920 I want to say Geoffrey Beam. It's like a shoe brand. 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:56.240 Gabby Johnson. No, um, Bill Johnson. You know, Howard Johnson. 0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:00.600 Yes this I can't remember his name, but he Jimmy 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:03.600 Johnson is way far away from that UM. But he 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.600 became a public face. He he would, you know, go 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:09.360 on to sixty minutes and and he talked to Dan 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:12.840 Rather and take Copple and all those cats. Like he 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:16.400 he was out there like showing how much the company cared. 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:19.440 And it had had a huge effect. Uh. And then 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:22.560 in Congress got involved. They passed what they dubbed the 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:25.800 Thailand All Bill, which basically says, if you do something 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:28.840 like this is now a federal offense. A few years 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:33.840 later in UM, the f d A actually established guidelines 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:37.160 for all manufacturers of any product really to make it 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:39.400 tamper proof. Yeah, because it wasn't just the O. T 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:43.200 C manufacturers that that started doing this. They followed suit 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:45.800 very quickly once Thailand all came out with it, because 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:47.880 they kind of had to if they wanted to keep 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:51.240 up with tail and all. UM. But also the UH, 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:56.040 the manufacturers of everything, like every product, every consumer products 0:15:56.040 --> 0:16:00.320 started putting their products in like tamper proof packaging. Dial 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:04.560 soap started coming wrapped in cellophane inside the box to 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:07.960 trap the chemicals in I guess, but also to show 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:11.400 like nobody's injected this with lie or something like that, 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:15.360 although lie is used in the making a soap, isn't it. 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:21.040 I remember my Fight Club. It's pretty funny someone injected 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:24.560 soap into the soap. All right, let's take another break 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:26.640 and we'll come back and talk a little bit more 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:31.200 about the profile of the supposed mad poisoner right after this. 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:57.880 Stop stop. Al Right, So, uh, this was a very 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:00.360 big case at the time, obviously, like we've been saying, 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:03.000 it was a landmark case. Um, so of course you're 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:07.960 going to get um psychological profiles, which you know, we 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:09.879 should do one in profiling. Actually have we done that? 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:12.320 I don't think so it'd be a good one because 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:14.760 it always like seems like the trope in movies and TV. 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:17.280 But it is kind of like that. It is a thing, 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:19.359 for sure. It's not like they just make this stuff up. 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:21.280 But in the end they said, you know, this is 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:25.320 probably a man in his twenties or thirties who was 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:27.880 sort of a Jekyl and Hide type during the day. 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.840 He's very ordinary. You could be in the desk cubicle 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:32.440 next to you and you wouldn't even know it. Every 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:35.359 once in a while, he's just hearing go Yeah exactly. 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:39.080 But deep in his in the recesses of his brain, everyone, 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:42.760 he's plagued with self doubt and has an illusion that 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:45.320 a random killing can boost his sense of self worth 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:50.720 self worth. Um, which is just sounds like a straight 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:53.080 out of a movie. It sounds like as psychiatrist thing 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.960 I want to be on TV. Yeah, listen to me. Uh. 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:01.159 They also speculated, and this is just completely like conjecture 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:04.240 was that he had probably already taken his own life 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:09.720 after the killings. That was one specific person who said that. Yeah, 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:15.080 it was I think like the medical examiner for Cook County. Yeah, um, 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:18.200 he probably already jumped off the bridge, So don't worry 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:22.120 about it. Don't worry everybody. Uh yeah, he just threw 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:23.639 that out there. I don't know if it was the 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:26.960 calm people or not, but or maybe he's just throwing 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:31.880 his two cents in. But um, I think you kind 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:33.800 of said it earlier. I don't remember if it was 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:35.880 part one or part two. The whole things is blurred 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:39.680 and become a haze by now. But um, no one 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:44.359 has ever been charged with the Thailand All murders. Yeah, 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:48.000 that's the ending. But there has been a lot. There 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:50.199 were a lot of suspects. Remember Thailand all set up 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:53.960 a hotline and this Thailand All task force, a hundred 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:58.879 and forty person strong task force investigating this, chasing down leads, 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:03.399 taking calls on the hotline, thousands and thousands of calls 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:06.679 that were coming in. Um, they were trying to whittle 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:10.960 those down into actual tips that were worth pursuing, and 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:14.960 out of all of them, they they deemed twelve hundred 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:19.439 tips leads worth checking out. There's a lot of leads 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:23.000 for a case, um, even even considering yet a hundred 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:26.320 and forty people working them. And I read somewhere that 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.399 they started out with like twenty thousand suspects or something 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:32.640 like that and whittled it down to four hundred. Yeah, 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:35.040 And sort of the sad part is as quickly as 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:38.119 they sort of figured a lot of this out, uh 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:41.160 and had that hundred and forty person task force, they 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:44.520 almost just as quickly within a few months, realized that, like, 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:47.880 we don't have a very good chance at finding this person. Yeah, 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:51.040 it became clear very quickly. Yeah, they whittled that down. 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:53.200 By the last week of October, the task force was 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:55.360 down to forty people. By the end of the year 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:58.360 it was down to twenty. And it was a situation 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:02.959 again in where you didn't have security cameras everywhere, you 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:08.400 didn't have credit cards and debit cards, um creating paper trails. 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.280 It was a lot easier back then to get away 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:14.960 with something like this too, um to be completely unknown. 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:17.679 To walk into a store, maybe slip some Thailand all 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:19.359 into your pocket, go out to the parking lot and 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:21.359 come back in and slipping back on the shelf. If 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:23.760 it's really easy, you won't even go to the trouble 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:26.440 of buying it. Yeah, I guess that's a good point 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:28.199 to steal it and then put it back. But you 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:31.639 know people were using cash. If there were cameras in 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:35.240 a place, they were probably trained on employees. I worked 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:37.920 at a golden pantry in College and the only camera 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:40.280 we had was directly above us, pointing down at the 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:43.359 catch register. It was the one of alps in in 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:50.760 Atlanta Highway Alps No, the one on the east side 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:55.199 College Station Road. I think, yeah, very interesting job. That's 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:57.080 the one where I got a job. I needed a job. 0:20:57.119 --> 0:21:00.000 I got a job at McDonald's and I showed up, 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:02.800 took the one hour training video, and they got my 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:05.159 uniform number. I went home and I was supposed to 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:06.639 show up the next day, and I was just like, 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:09.280 I can't do it. I can't go work at mcdoults. 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:12.600 And I got the golden pantry job later that day, which, 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:15.720 hey man, sure, it's like sign me up from Golden 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:18.880 arches to golden pantry. That's like a ragster richest story. 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:22.200 I was selling beer and cigarettes. Nice, it was pretty great. 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:26.240 You're like one for you, one for me. Oh, I 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:30.080 would never do that. Um, all right, where was I? Oh? Yeah, 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:32.119 I was a golden pantry. So the cameras trained on 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:34.920 the register. They're not they're not. You know, you can 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:36.960 come and go in a store and no one even 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:41.920 knows it was cops have nothing to go on. Most importantly, 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:45.400 no motive. That was a big one because remember this 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:49.120 is just a Jekylin Hyde type. You'd never suspect who's 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:51.720 probably at the bottom of the Chicago River, right, who 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:55.919 also is engaged in some senseless random killings of people, 0:21:56.240 --> 0:22:02.040 anonymous poisoning killing, not even shooting. It made zero sense whatsoever. So, 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:05.119 like we said earlier, the cops figured out within about 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:07.320 a month. Within the first month of the investigation that 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:09.520 this was. They were not going to have a break 0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:12.359 in this case. But it's not to say that they 0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:15.679 didn't have some suspects. Some people definitely did kind of 0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:19.560 come to come to the four, but not many of them. Yeah, 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:22.479 but these two are really interesting sub stories in and 0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:27.919 of themselves. The first guy's name was last name Arnold, 0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:31.639 first name Roger, Roger, that's right, I call him Richard, 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:35.159 that's all right, But for good reason? Oh sure, because 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:37.720 you said he was like the richer jewel of his day, 0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:42.280 the Olympic bomber, who was not the bomber, right, but 0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:45.959 whose life was ruined because he basically was implicated as 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:49.000 the Olympic bomber. The same thing happened to this guy. Yeah, 0:22:49.000 --> 0:22:52.359