1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You should know, a production of five 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, There's guest 4 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: producer Josh over there. Guess enough with the pleasant trees. 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 1: Let's get back to it Chuck. Thailand All Murders, Part two. 6 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: If you did not listen to the first part, seven 7 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: people were murdered by ingesting Thailand, all tainted with cyanide 8 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: on the same day, all on the same day. America 9 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: and much of the world is super freaked out. Johnson 10 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: and Johnson is the manufacturer, and part one of part 11 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,959 Speaker 1: two has a deal with Johnson and Johnson and how 12 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: they handled this in a public relations sort of way, 13 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: because there were and are a huge company. Like you 14 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: said in the episode one, they held thirty seven percent 15 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: of the market share, which was many hundreds of millions 16 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: of dollars of Thailand all that they're selling every year, 17 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: and that's right, which is like gazillions now, So it 18 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 1: was a very big deal for that company. And the 19 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: way they handled it is taught in colleges and pr 20 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: classes all over the world as exactly how to handle 21 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: a big public relations crisis like this, like it's literally 22 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,479 Speaker 1: called a textbook example of how how it's done. Yeah, 23 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: they did a good job because, as you remember from 24 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: the last episode, they found out pretty sure early on 25 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: that this had nothing to do with Johnson and Johnson, right, Like, 26 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 1: it wasn't in their factory, wasn't in their supply chain. 27 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: That happened almost certainly, and that it probably happened by 28 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: some crazed person taking them out of the store, tainting 29 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: them maybe in the store in the parking lot, then 30 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: putting them back on the shelf. But Johnson Johnson can't 31 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: come out on the news and say, hey, wasn't us 32 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: right Well, at first, though, and this this gets overlooked 33 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: and left out of the college business courses, in the 34 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: PR courses. At first, Johnson and Johnson was not in 35 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 1: favor of a massive recall. Well, it looks good in 36 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: one way but bad in another. And they actually didn't 37 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: recall anything until Mayor Jane Byrne held her press conference 38 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: on Friday calling for a recall of the Thailand all 39 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: in Chicago, and Johnson and Johnson did a little face palm, 40 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: and yes, we're recalling all of the Thailand all in Chicago. Yes, 41 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: what she said, right, So by Friday, uh, the thirty 42 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: one of September is their thirty one in September? Was 43 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: this October one? I have no idea. I think it 44 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: was October one. Anyway, By the Friday, two days after 45 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: the death, the death um Johnson and Johnson recalled all 46 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: of the Thailand all in Chicago. And that should have 47 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,399 Speaker 1: been enough to them. That was in a but this 48 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: PR crisis was so massive and spread so fast, and 49 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: like we said earlier in Part one, became global almost overnight. 50 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,799 Speaker 1: It was not enough. And so Johnson and Johnson, within 51 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:19,639 Speaker 1: a week of the deaths, recalled every bottle of extra 52 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: strength taile and all in the United States, which is 53 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: worth about a hundred million dollars at the time, took 54 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: it back to their factories and destroyed it. So they say, right, uh, yeah, 55 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: both Johnson and Johnson, right. I wonder if one of 56 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: them was like, I don't know about this. They're one 57 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: of them said Okay, I'll take all the states west 58 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,119 Speaker 1: of the Mississippi, North Dakota, South Dakota, and some Wyoming, 59 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: and then you take all the other states. That's a 60 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: that's a Part one joke. Uh, they even got an 61 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: award the Public Relations Society of America, which is a 62 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: real thing, I believe it or not. They awarded them 63 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: their Silver and bul award. Or how they handle the 64 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: crisis the Thailand All poisoning, that's right, and um high 65 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: grade foods. Remember we talked about the bad Wieners in 66 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: the first episode the ballpark. Frank sip Um supposedly had 67 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: razor blades but did not. That still created a public 68 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 1: relations crisis for them, even though they were just these 69 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: little jerks in Detroit. And uh, they won the Golden Anvil, 70 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: which is one higher than silver because of how they 71 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: handled the pr crisis brought about by the copycats of 72 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,799 Speaker 1: the actual taile in All crisis, which was in fact 73 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,679 Speaker 1: really brought about by two jerk kids in Detroit really 74 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: not even copycats, not the thaile in All crisis. I 75 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: wonder where those kids are today, probably in the Senate. 76 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: I bet one of them was the guy who did 77 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: our our lighting at our Detroit show. There was a smoke. Yeah, guys, 78 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: we we did the show in Detroit a few years ago, 79 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: and um, very famously we still use that as the 80 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: standard or for a bad crew. Bad We had a 81 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: guy that looked like a former roadie for your Riyah 82 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: Heap that was running like a light show basically during 83 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: the middle of our podcast, and like smoke came out. 84 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: We were like, we had to stop the show, almost 85 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: like dude, what are you doing? Yeah, well the lighting 86 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: was so bad that your highlighter had turned like brown 87 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: and you could and you asked him, we had to 88 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: stop the show and you had to ask him to 89 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: use a different color light. And his response, because Umi 90 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: was hanging out and our friend Chris Bowman was hanging 91 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: out in the sound booth with the guy, his response, 92 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: according to them, was who wants smoke. I'll give him 93 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: some more smoke. And we got some more smoke like 94 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 1: a smoke machine man. And people ask us why we 95 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: haven't been back to Detroit. That's a big reason. It's 96 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: a big reason. Not the only reason. Uh. Okay, So 97 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: they won the Golden Anvil for the Wiener pr moves. 98 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: UM McNeil Consumer Products, which is a subsidiary of Johnson 99 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: and Johnson. They actually make Thailand. All yeah, they make 100 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: the pills again. The way this all this supply chain 101 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: works is really convoluted. Um and uh, like you said, 102 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: they didn't want to recall Johnson Johnson everything at first. 103 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: They want to kind of take it a little slower, 104 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: I guess um, because they found out the drugs are 105 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 1: actually fine, right thanks to Pinky McFarland. This is a 106 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: hundred million dollars worth of stock that they were kind 107 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 1: of feeling the pressure to recall it's right, So they 108 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: were kind of reluctant at first, especially if they were 109 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: convinced that there was nothing wrong with the rest of them. 110 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: They had no choice, no, that was the only way 111 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 1: to do it was to lose a lot of money 112 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: and in favor of future gains. Yeah, but even at 113 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: the time, a lot of people were like, this is 114 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: it for taile and All. The public has lost faith 115 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: in thailan All. So when thailan All recalled thirty one million, 116 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: fifty count bottles of extra strength taile and All and 117 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: destroyed at All, there was a chance that not only 118 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: were they losing a hundred million million dollars, but that 119 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: they were losing a hundred billion dollars of a brand 120 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: that had already lost the public trust and would never 121 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: regain it. So, which wasn't true. But no, but they 122 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: didn't necessarily know that at the time it was still 123 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: up in the air. Um. So they it was basically 124 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: thirty one million sacrificial lambs that were killed to show 125 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: the public this tainted Title and All has gone forever. 126 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: Your chances of dying from taking extra strength Title and 127 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: All are now gone. You can go back to taking 128 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: tile and all. Now, that was one thing, and that 129 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: was a big gesture, but which is what it amounted to. 130 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: It was a gesture on behalf of Johnson and Johnson. 131 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: But they did other stuff too. They started to do 132 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: things right out of their reluctance. Once they finally said 133 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: there we have to just go with this to save 134 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: face and to win back public trust, they started to 135 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: do things right, like including like setting up a hotline 136 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: putting out a hundred thousand dollar reward for information how 137 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: much they had lost already none ted. Two dollars still 138 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: jump change it's it is yeah, and that remains unclaimed. 139 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: It does. Um but they But because of all this, 140 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: Johnson and Johnson managed to regain the public trust and 141 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: actually managed to position itself as a victim in all 142 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: of this. Like yes, there were these which they were 143 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: seven murder victims, and Johnson and Johnson I don't think 144 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: ever tried to push them out of the spotlight, but 145 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: they also managed to portray themselves as the victim of 146 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: a of a mad poisoner who may or may not 147 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: have something out for them, but either way, their brand 148 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 1: was taking a huge hit because of this, and they 149 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: were a victim. And we're able to generate public sympathy, 150 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: which is part of the road to regaining the public trust, 151 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,839 Speaker 1: which is why it's taught NPR classes. So, um, we'll 152 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: take you back to two if you're if you weren't 153 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: around then or old enough to be taking uh OTC 154 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: pills and pain relievers. OTC is over the counter, by 155 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: the way. That's right, Okay, you're done with OTTC. Yeah 156 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 1: you know me so dumb. Uh. I love that you 157 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: played along, though I appreciate it, you could have made 158 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: me feel stupid. We've been partners for eleven years almost now. Yeah, 159 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: that'd be when next month or this month? Right? Yeah, 160 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: unbelievable So uh not not in that way. Okay. So 161 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: here's how it used to happen. If you wanted to 162 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: take a pill like a tail and all you would, 163 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: um get your bottle. You would pop it open with 164 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: your thumb first. First it came in a little box. Sure, 165 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: but the box wasn't even glued shut. Um, you would 166 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,719 Speaker 1: pop it open with your finger. You would take out 167 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 1: the cotton in there, and you would take your pill. 168 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 1: It was that easy. There was no tamper proofing, there 169 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: was no The cotton was completely superfluous at this time. Yeah. 170 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: Cotton originally was introduced to keep bear aspirin like the 171 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: hard tablets from getting crushed in transport. Yeah, and since 172 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: they started using capsules and other stuff in figured out 173 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: how to strengthen tablets, there was no reason for the 174 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: cotton any longer, but because consumers expected it. Still today, 175 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,719 Speaker 1: you'll find cotton in your and your pills. There's no 176 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: reason for it to be there except because the companies 177 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:15,599 Speaker 1: know that you wanted to be there. You might be 178 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: weirded out if there wasn't cotton in your pills. Imagine 179 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: the cotton lobby had something to do with that too. Well, 180 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: I'll bet they're not. They're not complaining, you know, so 181 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: um big cotton. They should uh new fancy otc pills 182 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 1: should have micromodal in there. Right, it just comes with 183 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: a pair of me and the stuffed into your film bottle. 184 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:41,079 Speaker 1: You're like, these have been worn so uh, this was 185 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: a time. It was a very innocent time previous to 186 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: this where you could like and you pointed this out. 187 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: I remember seeing this in grocery stores, like I remember 188 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: seeing mothers and grocery stores opening food products and smelling them. Yes, 189 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:57,839 Speaker 1: that's what you could do, and then closing it back 190 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: and putting it back on the shelf. There's a little 191 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: a mold in this one, yeah, and I'll just leave 192 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: it for the next person. Forget poisoning like that. These 193 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: they could be spitting in this stuff. It was allowed. 194 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 1: That's just the way it was like there was. America 195 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: was innocent enough that that was fine. That's how we lived. 196 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: And that sets up this tail and all poisoning. It 197 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: really shows how much of a jarring experience it was 198 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: for America because all of a sudden, like it's finally 199 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: sunk in in a couple of days, there's something wrong 200 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: with the thaile and all. Somebody has gone out of 201 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: their way to poison the tail and all in order 202 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 1: to randomly kill people. And the reason they were able 203 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: to do this because there it's easy to to get 204 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: into the taile and all tamper with it, put it back, 205 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: and no one will be any any any more. The 206 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: wiser and wait, it's not just taile and all. Milk 207 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: doesn't have anything that that keeps it tamper resistant. New, 208 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: there's orange juice, new, there's cereal. New, there does um 209 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: cottage cheese? Enough does? And America for wreaked out. And 210 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: this is the reason why this Taile and All poisoning 211 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: is considered widely the first incident of domestic terrorism in 212 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,959 Speaker 1: the United States, because it was terrorism, pure and simple. 213 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: America was terrified. They were petrified not only to take 214 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,559 Speaker 1: Thailand All or any over the counter medicine, now they 215 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: were petrified to drink milk or give milk to their kids. 216 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: Paula Prince, the flight attendant who was the last one 217 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: to die in Chicago, she had a coworker who said, 218 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: like everything looked tainted now, I was afraid to give 219 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: my kids milk. I was afraid to give my kids cereal. 220 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: If they could get to the title tail and all, 221 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: they could poison anything. And that was really emblematic of 222 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: the the attitude, the shock that everybody went through. And 223 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: as a result, within six weeks, Thailand all said we 224 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: got this coverage. Yeah, and I have a feeling they 225 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: did this so fast. There had to have been this 226 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: idea in place already. It was I saw, I saw 227 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: a reference that it was, and I imagine it was 228 00:12:57,559 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 1: not done because they were like, well, that's a lot 229 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: of money, and why why would we bother. It's like, 230 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: it's not like someone's gonna poison the medicine. And then 231 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: that happened. So within six weeks they had a box 232 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: that was actually glued shut, so if your little box 233 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: had been opened, you would be able to tell yeah, 234 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: that was that was part one of three of this 235 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: tamper resistant packaging. That little plastic seal over the top 236 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: of the bottle after you open it. Uh oh no, No, 237 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: the the plastic is over the cap on the outside 238 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: of the bottle. Yeah, like the plastic foil, and then 239 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: the uh, the actual foil was over the mouth of 240 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,719 Speaker 1: the bottle that we all have to poke through now 241 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: to pull out the cotton and whatever still uses cotton. 242 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: None of that existed until the beginning of nine. So 243 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: all three of these are put in place within six weeks. Uh. 244 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: Not only that, they said, you know what, we're going 245 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: to introduce the caplet, which everyone knows now it was 246 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 1: we didn't have them back then. Everything was a little 247 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: capsule that you could literally pull apart and you could 248 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: snort the Thailand all if you wanted to. Quite sure 249 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: some people did. I'm sure someone did. But the caplet is, 250 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: you know, a tablet coated with an easy to swallow 251 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,839 Speaker 1: a gelatine. It's solid, it's um. I imagine you could 252 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: tamper with it. And even I even saw with all 253 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: these things in place, they said, nothing is tamper proof. 254 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: But these measures really went a long way to restore 255 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: the public, uh, you know, well, like the good feelings 256 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: about what was going on. Yeah, within about a year, 257 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: tailand all Or Johnson and Johnson managed to win the 258 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: public's trust back in Thailand. All that's hard to believe. Yeah, 259 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: that was really fast. But it also goes to show 260 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: like just how perfectly they did everything from that from 261 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: the time they committed to it on. Yeah, and I 262 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: feel like I remember like commercials with CEOs and stuff 263 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: addressing the public. He became I can't remember his name. 264 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: I want to say Geoffrey Beam. It's like a shoe brand. 265 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: Gabby Johnson. No, um, Bill Johnson. You know, Howard Johnson. 266 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: Yes this I can't remember his name, but he Jimmy 267 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: Johnson is way far away from that UM. But he 268 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: became a public face. He he would, you know, go 269 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: on to sixty minutes and and he talked to Dan 270 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: Rather and take Copple and all those cats. Like he 271 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: he was out there like showing how much the company cared. 272 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: And it had had a huge effect. Uh. And then 273 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: in Congress got involved. They passed what they dubbed the 274 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: Thailand All Bill, which basically says, if you do something 275 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: like this is now a federal offense. A few years 276 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: later in UM, the f d A actually established guidelines 277 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: for all manufacturers of any product really to make it 278 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: tamper proof. Yeah, because it wasn't just the O. T 279 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: C manufacturers that that started doing this. They followed suit 280 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: very quickly once Thailand all came out with it, because 281 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: they kind of had to if they wanted to keep 282 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: up with tail and all. UM. But also the UH, 283 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: the manufacturers of everything, like every product, every consumer products 284 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: started putting their products in like tamper proof packaging. Dial 285 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: soap started coming wrapped in cellophane inside the box to 286 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: trap the chemicals in I guess, but also to show 287 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: like nobody's injected this with lie or something like that, 288 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: although lie is used in the making a soap, isn't it. 289 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: I remember my Fight Club. It's pretty funny someone injected 290 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: soap into the soap. All right, let's take another break 291 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: and we'll come back and talk a little bit more 292 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: about the profile of the supposed mad poisoner right after this. 293 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: Stop stop. Al Right, So, uh, this was a very 294 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: big case at the time, obviously, like we've been saying, 295 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: it was a landmark case. Um, so of course you're 296 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: going to get um psychological profiles, which you know, we 297 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: should do one in profiling. Actually have we done that? 298 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: I don't think so it'd be a good one because 299 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: it always like seems like the trope in movies and TV. 300 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: But it is kind of like that. It is a thing, 301 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 1: for sure. It's not like they just make this stuff up. 302 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: But in the end they said, you know, this is 303 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: probably a man in his twenties or thirties who was 304 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 1: sort of a Jekyl and Hide type during the day. 305 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: He's very ordinary. You could be in the desk cubicle 306 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 1: next to you and you wouldn't even know it. Every 307 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: once in a while, he's just hearing go Yeah exactly. 308 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: But deep in his in the recesses of his brain, everyone, 309 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: he's plagued with self doubt and has an illusion that 310 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: a random killing can boost his sense of self worth 311 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: self worth. Um, which is just sounds like a straight 312 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: out of a movie. It sounds like as psychiatrist thing 313 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 1: I want to be on TV. Yeah, listen to me. Uh. 314 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 1: They also speculated, and this is just completely like conjecture 315 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: was that he had probably already taken his own life 316 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: after the killings. That was one specific person who said that. Yeah, 317 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: it was I think like the medical examiner for Cook County. Yeah, um, 318 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: he probably already jumped off the bridge, So don't worry 319 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 1: about it. Don't worry everybody. Uh yeah, he just threw 320 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 1: that out there. I don't know if it was the 321 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: calm people or not, but or maybe he's just throwing 322 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 1: his two cents in. But um, I think you kind 323 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: of said it earlier. I don't remember if it was 324 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:35,880 Speaker 1: part one or part two. The whole things is blurred 325 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: and become a haze by now. But um, no one 326 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: has ever been charged with the Thailand All murders. Yeah, 327 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: that's the ending. But there has been a lot. There 328 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,199 Speaker 1: were a lot of suspects. Remember Thailand all set up 329 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: a hotline and this Thailand All task force, a hundred 330 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: and forty person strong task force investigating this, chasing down leads, 331 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 1: taking calls on the hotline, thousands and thousands of calls 332 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 1: that were coming in. Um, they were trying to whittle 333 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: those down into actual tips that were worth pursuing, and 334 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: out of all of them, they they deemed twelve hundred 335 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 1: tips leads worth checking out. There's a lot of leads 336 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: for a case, um, even even considering yet a hundred 337 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: and forty people working them. And I read somewhere that 338 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 1: they started out with like twenty thousand suspects or something 339 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: like that and whittled it down to four hundred. Yeah, 340 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: And sort of the sad part is as quickly as 341 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: they sort of figured a lot of this out, uh 342 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,160 Speaker 1: and had that hundred and forty person task force, they 343 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: almost just as quickly within a few months, realized that, like, 344 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: we don't have a very good chance at finding this person. Yeah, 345 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: it became clear very quickly. Yeah, they whittled that down. 346 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: By the last week of October, the task force was 347 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 1: down to forty people. By the end of the year 348 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 1: it was down to twenty. And it was a situation 349 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:02,959 Speaker 1: again in where you didn't have security cameras everywhere, you 350 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 1: didn't have credit cards and debit cards, um creating paper trails. 351 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: It was a lot easier back then to get away 352 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: with something like this too, um to be completely unknown. 353 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,679 Speaker 1: To walk into a store, maybe slip some Thailand all 354 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: into your pocket, go out to the parking lot and 355 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: come back in and slipping back on the shelf. If 356 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: it's really easy, you won't even go to the trouble 357 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: of buying it. Yeah, I guess that's a good point 358 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 1: to steal it and then put it back. But you 359 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: know people were using cash. If there were cameras in 360 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: a place, they were probably trained on employees. I worked 361 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 1: at a golden pantry in College and the only camera 362 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: we had was directly above us, pointing down at the 363 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: catch register. It was the one of alps in in 364 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: Atlanta Highway Alps No, the one on the east side 365 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:55,199 Speaker 1: College Station Road. I think, yeah, very interesting job. That's 366 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: the one where I got a job. I needed a job. 367 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: I got a job at McDonald's and I showed up, 368 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: took the one hour training video, and they got my 369 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 1: uniform number. I went home and I was supposed to 370 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: show up the next day, and I was just like, 371 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: I can't do it. I can't go work at mcdoults. 372 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: And I got the golden pantry job later that day, which, 373 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: hey man, sure, it's like sign me up from Golden 374 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: arches to golden pantry. That's like a ragster richest story. 375 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: I was selling beer and cigarettes. Nice, it was pretty great. 376 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: You're like one for you, one for me. Oh, I 377 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: would never do that. Um, all right, where was I? Oh? Yeah, 378 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 1: I was a golden pantry. So the cameras trained on 379 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: the register. They're not they're not. You know, you can 380 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: come and go in a store and no one even 381 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: knows it was cops have nothing to go on. Most importantly, 382 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 1: no motive. That was a big one because remember this 383 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 1: is just a Jekylin Hyde type. You'd never suspect who's 384 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: probably at the bottom of the Chicago River, right, who 385 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 1: also is engaged in some senseless random killings of people, 386 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: anonymous poisoning killing, not even shooting. It made zero sense whatsoever. So, 387 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 1: like we said earlier, the cops figured out within about 388 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: a month. Within the first month of the investigation that 389 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: this was. They were not going to have a break 390 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: in this case. But it's not to say that they 391 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 1: didn't have some suspects. Some people definitely did kind of 392 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: come to come to the four, but not many of them. Yeah, 393 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,479 Speaker 1: but these two are really interesting sub stories in and 394 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 1: of themselves. The first guy's name was last name Arnold, 395 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: first name Roger, Roger, that's right, I call him Richard, 396 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 1: that's all right, But for good reason? Oh sure, because 397 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: you said he was like the richer jewel of his day, 398 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: the Olympic bomber, who was not the bomber, right, but 399 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,959 Speaker 1: whose life was ruined because he basically was implicated as 400 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: the Olympic bomber. The same thing happened to this guy. Yeah, 401 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: he was one of the first named suspects, forty nine 402 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: year old guy. So so put yourself in the position. Okay, 403 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: the media is going berserk on this story. Everybody hears 404 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 1: about it. It's a mad anonymous poisoner, and now all 405 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 1: of a sudden there's a name and a face associated 406 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: with it. Who's a suspect, but he's the first person name. 407 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: It's like people going crazy, like trying to get to 408 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 1: this guy, to interview him. Yeah, I have my doubts 409 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 1: about this guy. Not that he did that, but there 410 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: are a lot of hinky things that they found out 411 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: about him and then how it all ended up as 412 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 1: you're about to see. So he was a d i 413 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: y chemist. It's a big one. There's a big thing 414 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: right there, because into chemistry. He said, he's a Jacqueline 415 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: Hide type who's probably into chemistry. That's right. Uh. He 416 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: was a dock hand at jewel Foods at a warehouse 417 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 1: west of Chicago, and jewel foods to a couple of 418 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: different jewel foods are where the tyl was bought, like 419 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,360 Speaker 1: a grocery store, food market. It's all checking out so far. Um. 420 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: So the cops look into him and go to his house. 421 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 1: He has a book, a handbook rather on methods of 422 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: killing people? How did kill people? A dizzy? I don't 423 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: know if that's the title, but okay, that's a good one. 424 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 1: He had five unregistered guns, it's a big one. He 425 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: admitted to having cyanide once. Yeah, but he said I 426 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: threw it out like at least six months before these murders. 427 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: He's like, when we are the murders again, Oh, yes, 428 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: six months before that that's and then his wife said, 429 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: you know, they're investigating her and interviewing her. She was like, 430 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: you know what, actually I did take some tile in 431 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: all and felt really sick and threw up one time. 432 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: But again I was it was probably due to over eating, 433 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: and it was just that once. That's the fact of 434 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: the podcast. So like, you can't blame cops for saying 435 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: this guy is a pretty good lead, yeah, because you 436 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: can kind of start to see, like if you add 437 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: all the other stuff together and then hear about the 438 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 1: wife throwing up from Thailand, all we like, could could 439 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: you see this guy like toying with his wife, like 440 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: testing it out on her, just enough to make her sick, 441 00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 1: but not to kill her, to see what happened, you know, 442 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 1: see if she would notice. Who knows. But the cops 443 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: thoroughly investigated this guy and cleared him. There there's not 444 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,679 Speaker 1: a there's not a person associated with the story that 445 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: I came across who I actually think this guy did it. 446 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: I didn't find one person who thought Ronald Roger Arnold 447 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: actually did it. But in very short order he proved 448 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 1: that he was more than capable of murder because six 449 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: months after he was cleared as a suspect. He was 450 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: brought in for the murder of somebody else, a guy 451 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: named John Stanisha. Stanisha would say, yeah, I'm going with 452 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: that too, sons Slovak or something. Yeah, he was forty six, 453 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: he was a Chicago UM computer consultant, and that's saying 454 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 1: something yeah, probably so um. So here's what happened Arnold. 455 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 1: There was his bar gender name or bar owner named 456 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: Marty Sinclair, who Arnold had thought had initially turned him 457 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: into the cops and ruined his life essentially. So he 458 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,199 Speaker 1: goes to kill who he thinks is Marty Sinclair and 459 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,360 Speaker 1: it's actually this just completely innocent, random guy who gets 460 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: shot point blank. And so he in fact did kill somebody. 461 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: He did because of what had happened to his life. 462 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: It was premeditated murder, even though it was the wrong person. 463 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: He was definitely he created an intentional homicide. He killed 464 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: somebody on purpose, mistaken identity killing though right. And because 465 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: of this, because it was directly related to the Thaile 466 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 1: and All poisonings, John Stanisha is um frequently considered an 467 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: eighth victim of the Taile and All killings, kind of 468 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: like an honorary um victim in this case. But it 469 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: is kind of appropriate that he just happened to be 470 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: in the wrong place, of the wrong time, a victim 471 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,199 Speaker 1: of mistaken identity. You know, it would have like a 472 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: slightly different ring to it if it had been the 473 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 1: right guy. The fact that it was the wrong guy 474 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: and poor dude just happened to be in the wrong 475 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,239 Speaker 1: bar and happened to look like the owner, that's just, 476 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: it's just it's perfect for this for this saga. Yeah, 477 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 1: I wonder what Marty Sinclair thought about all that. I'll 478 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: bet he was not very happy, probably not, but probably 479 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,120 Speaker 1: also very relieved and probably also guilt. Yeah, I would 480 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: guess there's a touch of that, a range of emotions 481 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,400 Speaker 1: I would imagine, Yeah, all over the place. So Arnold 482 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: ended up serving fifteen years of a thirty year sentence, 483 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: was released in ninety nine, and died nine years later. So, Chuck, 484 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: before we go on to the main attraction, as far 485 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 1: as the suspects go, Yeah, I propose that we take 486 00:27:34,240 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: a break, agreed, Okay, We'll be right back. Stop you stop, alright, Chuck. 487 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: So this dude, there was basically two suspects in this 488 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: whole case, over all these years, there are basically two people. 489 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: And again no one was ever actually charged with the murders. 490 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: But this guy came awfully close, and his name was 491 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 1: James Lewis, it turns out it was. But James Lewis 492 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 1: came under the attention of the Chicago p D and 493 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 1: the Thailand All Task Force when a letter showed up 494 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: at Johnson and Johnson headquarters and it was from allegedly 495 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: the Thailand All Poison or the Mad Poisoner. And in 496 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: the letter it said basically like I've spent fifty dollars 497 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: so far, and the whole thing has taken me about 498 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: ten minutes per bottle, and I've already killed seven people. 499 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: I basically see no reason to stop. Pay me one 500 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: million dollars and then I will stop the killings. And 501 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: he gave a bank account number. He said, wire me 502 00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: this money very very presidently. Now that's not the right word. Uh, 503 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: stupid maybe, but is it. No, it's not. So this 504 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: letter has a New York postmark, but the bank account 505 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: is associated with the travel agency in Chicago. And so 506 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: the cops go, Okay, this seems like it was dropped 507 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: in our lap, but let's go check it out and 508 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: they find the owner of this travel agency that had 509 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: closed up and gone under um. And this guy is like, 510 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: oh my god, you're kidding me. It's like, no, I 511 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: didn't write this letter, but I can guarantee I can 512 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: tell you who did, as a guy named Robert Richardson. 513 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: Robert Richardson, it turned out, was the husband of a 514 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: woman named Nancy Richardson who had worked at the travel 515 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: agency and when the travel agency went belly up, Nancy 516 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: lost her job and never got her last paycheck. Well, 517 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: Robert Richardson was the type of guy who would fixate 518 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: on this, and was even more so the type of 519 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: guy who would write a letter to frame the owner 520 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: of the travel agency for the Thailand all murderers in 521 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: retaliation for at last paycheck. He was that kind of dude, right, 522 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: And so the cops started sniffing into this Robert Richardson 523 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: cat and they figured out pretty quickly that Robert Richardson 524 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: didn't actually exist, that he was actually somebody else, a 525 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: man named James Lewis. So when we joked earlier about 526 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: is that his real name, and you said it was, 527 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: it was? It was. His name was not Robert Richardson. 528 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: Though that was an alias. So what they found out 529 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: was that Robert Richardson was a tax consultant. UM. He 530 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: had and this is just a strange, ironic twist. When 531 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: he was twenty years old, he tried to take his 532 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: own life by swallowing aspirin thirty six of them. Yeah, 533 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: so that's just neither here nor there. But an interesting 534 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: little side note. Yeah, the fact that, like most people 535 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: don't have that as part of their past. Yeah, it 536 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: is interesting that it came up. So he had a 537 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: pretty long rap sheet. He was wanted by postal inspectors 538 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: for a credit card fraud in Kansas City. UM. He 539 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: was indicted in ninety for And this one is just 540 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: mind blowing. He's indicted for murder after police found remains 541 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: of one of his former clients in bags in his attic, 542 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: and he got let loose because it was an illegal search. 543 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: But he he was caught with the body of one 544 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: of his clients dismembered in his attic with no good 545 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: explanation as far as I've ever heard. Yes, So Joe, well, 546 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: what explanation would be good? Well, we were playing poker 547 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: and one thing like doing another started juggling swords, and yeah, 548 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: uh so his wife's real name was Leanne, the one 549 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 1: who worked at the travel agency and went unpaid. They 550 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: fled Kansas City in December of eighty one. Um, and 551 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: this was as US Postal inspectors were converging on them 552 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: about this credit card scheme. Right, So they're like, just 553 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: bad people, not the postal inspectors. No. Great, So they 554 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: moved to Chicago. They changed their names to Robert Nancy 555 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 1: Nancy Richardson. He got that job as a tax preparer, 556 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: but then he was fired after a violent outburst in 557 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: his office against his co workers. Um. And then she 558 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: lost her job, went unpaid. They left Chicago, and this 559 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: turns out this is what got them exonerated from the time. 560 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: All thing is they left Chicago and moved to New 561 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: York before this happened, right before those same month. Right. 562 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: But if the theory held up that this person went around, 563 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: most likely in one day and did all this stuff, 564 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 1: then it couldn't have been them. No, And here's why, 565 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: because the cops had decided that it was done locally. 566 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,719 Speaker 1: And one of the other things that supported that local 567 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: mad poisoner theory was because the cyanide through the gelatine 568 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: capsules eventually, so I had a very very short shelf 569 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: life before the whole bottle just turned into a mush 570 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: of cyani powder and melted gelatine. So, like you said, 571 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: it had to have been done basically the day before 572 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: they nine. They could not, no matter how hard they tried, 573 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,479 Speaker 1: they could not put James Lewis or his wife in 574 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: Chicago that day. They just couldn't. And for his part, 575 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: James Lewis said, yeah, I wrote this letter. I wrote 576 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: the letter of Johnson and Johnson framing that travel agency guy. 577 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: But I did not. I did not poison the title 578 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: at all. He's always been adamant about that. He's never 579 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: toyed around with it. He's never messed around, he's never 580 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: been coy He's always been adamant that he did not 581 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: poison that title at all. Although the title and all 582 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: task force tried to trip him up once. I guess 583 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:36,959 Speaker 1: to just get this on the record that he'd done this, 584 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: But they asked him, like in an in an interview, Okay, 585 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: let's say you had done it, how would you have 586 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: done it? And he actually he showed them how he 587 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: would have done it. Yeah, he just didn't write a 588 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: book about it. He just showed him in an interview. Yeah. 589 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: And he defends this later on by saying it was 590 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: just a speculative scenario. I could tell you how Julius 591 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: Caesar was killed, but that doesn't mean I was the killer. 592 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: I think the answer for me it would have been 593 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, man, Yeah, I'm innocent. I don't I 594 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: can't figure this out. But he's like, here's how I do. 595 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: I've been waiting for you to ask me though. Uh. 596 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 1: He's eventually found in New York City. He's at the 597 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: public library um with a reference book, copying names and 598 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: addresses of newspapers. Uh. I would imagine to send them 599 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: letters like zodiac style. Yeah, because so we gotta say this. 600 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,320 Speaker 1: So the cops figured out who James Lewis was before 601 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: they found James Lewis, and it became part of the 602 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: national media um circus hunt. While they were looking for 603 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: James Lewis, this guy was writing letters to newspapers. He 604 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: called in a radio talk show. He was really relishing 605 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: the fact that there was a national man hunt out 606 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 1: for him. Who Like, that's That's what I'm saying. On 607 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: the one hand, you gotta kind of feel a little 608 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: bit bad that this guy was kind of being railroaded 609 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: into you know, the wrap for these murders. After his 610 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,479 Speaker 1: extortion attempt, that's where the feeling bad firms. You're like, oh, yeah, 611 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: that's right. He totally brought this on himself. Yeah. So 612 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: they hauled him out of the New York Public Library. 613 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: He was sentenced to ten years for extortion attempt in 614 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: ten years for credit that original credit card fraud uh 615 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 1: and served thirteen years and lives in the Greater Boston 616 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 1: area today. So still today there. I think there are 617 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: a few people who are like, I could see this guy, 618 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,839 Speaker 1: maybe maybe he could. He could be at some Some 619 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: detectives maintain that the Thailand All murder could have flown 620 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: into O'Hare running a car, done that circuit, flown or 621 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 1: driven back to a hair and flown out all on 622 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 1: the same day the day before, but they could never 623 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 1: put James Lewis in Chicago at all that day. UM. 624 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 1: So he was cleared finally, although he did serve two 625 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: consecutive ten years sentences. He served thirteen of the twenty 626 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: years for that credit card fraud that the Postal Inspectors 627 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 1: wanted him for and for extortion letter um and like 628 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 1: you said, he lives in Cambridge, mass now. But then 629 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: in two thousand nine, the case, after basically having gone 630 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: dormant in the early eighties, was reignited by the FBI 631 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,439 Speaker 1: because they worked up they thought a DNA profile from 632 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: the capsules and they rated James Lewis's house. Um demanded 633 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: a fingerprint and DNA sample. James and Leanne Lewis fought 634 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 1: it in court. The judges like, no, you have to 635 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: do this. Before leaving the courthouse, they gave him the 636 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,760 Speaker 1: samples and nothing has come of it. So I guess 637 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 1: that means tacitly that the Lewises were cleared once and 638 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 1: for all of the tail and all murders. Yeah, and 639 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 1: you know, the DNA thing is an interesting piece because um, 640 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,959 Speaker 1: they still have some samples of the cyanide. I guess 641 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: that the capsules have have worn away by now if 642 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: it had the cyanide in there. But there was and 643 00:36:54,800 --> 00:37:00,240 Speaker 1: still his hope, um, that DNA could could crack this case. Um, 644 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,280 Speaker 1: just like eight or nine years ago, the unibomber ted Kazinski. 645 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,839 Speaker 1: Is that a two parter? No, No, it's just one parter, 646 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:09,799 Speaker 1: good podcast, So I don't think. So that was a 647 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,719 Speaker 1: good episode. Uh, he grew up in Chicago and his 648 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: parents were living in the Greater Chicago area in eight two, 649 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: and he is the UNI bomber. So they said we 650 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,880 Speaker 1: might as well get a DNA sample and talk to him, 651 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 1: and um, he was cleared. I don't think he was 652 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: ever a super strong suspect and he probably would have 653 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: admitted it. So he was like, no, this is not 654 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,720 Speaker 1: me right. So, UM, the UNI bomber has been cleared. 655 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,800 Speaker 1: That's right from the talent on mers. But that remains 656 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,799 Speaker 1: the case remains unsolved to this day. I think they 657 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 1: also have a fingerprint work up that they found on 658 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,359 Speaker 1: one of the bottles and that and some DNA. It's 659 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: is they're just sitting around with that. There's there are 660 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: no suspects there. Every suspect has been cleared. Um, and 661 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,760 Speaker 1: there's nobody on the horizon. It's just an unsolved random 662 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 1: series of killings that happened. Yeah, they're still working on 663 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: it though. Um. There's a police sergeant named Scott Winkleman 664 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 1: who has been on this task force for a long 665 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 1: time and he says he thinks it's solvable. Um and 666 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: his department did just saw a forty five year old 667 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,319 Speaker 1: murder case cold case. Man, if they solved this one, 668 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: that would be the biggest cold case ever solved. I 669 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: think so. I think. I mean, who knows, but I 670 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: could see maybe finding like a deathbed letter or something 671 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,239 Speaker 1: one day, Like I don't know if they're going to 672 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: catch someone in at the bottom of the Chicago River 673 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 1: in all of to jail, but I could see the 674 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: truth coming out one day, I hope so for the 675 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: families because um Monica Janie, she's the niece of Adam 676 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: Stanley and Teresa. She said, her family to this day. 677 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: This is from an article like last year, I think 678 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 1: um said that they have still not gotten over it. 679 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 1: She said her grandparents have passed now, but she said, 680 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: literally every day for the rest of their lives, they 681 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 1: just cried about, uh, the fact that they didn't know 682 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 1: who did it. Um. She grew up. It has been 683 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: a therapy therapy her whole life because um, there were 684 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: all victims. You know that this post traumatic stress disorder 685 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,360 Speaker 1: kicks in where she grew up fearing that any of 686 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,319 Speaker 1: her family members could die at any time. Um. Oh. 687 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: In that article, by the way, it was really good. 688 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 1: It was called the Thailand All Murders Colin is it 689 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 1: too late to solve the famous cold case? And that 690 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,840 Speaker 1: was from any real crime and written by Jamie Bartas 691 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: Joseph manus Her. Her dad says that he still has 692 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:38,839 Speaker 1: dreams like you know on the rag about these murders. Um. 693 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,759 Speaker 1: He said he had one recently where everyone involved was 694 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 1: in a room in the case. Uh, and then two 695 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: black men in suits and glasses were laughing about how 696 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 1: they got away with murder. Um. Michelle Rosen, she's the 697 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: daughter of Mary Reiner. Um. She has dedicated her life 698 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: to investigating this on her own, and she doesn't agree 699 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,319 Speaker 1: with the loan the mad pois in her theory at all. No, 700 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,319 Speaker 1: this is this is interesting. Yeah. She thinks it had 701 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,320 Speaker 1: something to do with the supply chain and that Johnson 702 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: and Johnson knew this and covered it up. Um. One 703 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,399 Speaker 1: of the things, one of the things that people who 704 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,360 Speaker 1: believe this point to is that Johnson and Johnson recalled 705 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: all of that Thailand, all thirty one million bottles, and 706 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,359 Speaker 1: then destroyed them allegedly without testing any of it. So 707 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 1: we will never know whether it was Pinky had the 708 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,840 Speaker 1: day off right, whether whether it was beyond Chicago or 709 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 1: just local in Chicago, seems like it took long enough 710 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 1: that other people would have died in that week before 711 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: the national recall was undertaken. But um, there was something 712 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: very very interesting that was a post script to all 713 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 1: this that does undermine that mad poisoner theory. Yeah, it 714 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: was just a few years later a woman in New 715 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,879 Speaker 1: York named Diane els Roth took two extra strength thaile 716 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: and all capsules and died from cyanide pisoning. Um, but 717 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:04,759 Speaker 1: they found I mean, it's just completely unrelated. Was it 718 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 1: another copycat case well, or or the original poisoner? Maybe? 719 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,919 Speaker 1: So this different cyanide, right, the cyanide was definitely not 720 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 1: the same size some from the same batch. It was 721 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 1: chemically different. But there was another bottle found around the 722 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,400 Speaker 1: block from where Mary els Roth bought hers and Yonkers 723 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,320 Speaker 1: that did match that cyanide. So there were two bottles 724 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 1: of extra strength tilent all two years later in another 725 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 1: state that had been UM tampered with. The problem is 726 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:38,359 Speaker 1: this was after the three pronged tamper resistant packaging had 727 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,799 Speaker 1: been UM introduced, which means it was an inside job, right, 728 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,439 Speaker 1: I guess because the tamper the thing had not been 729 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,759 Speaker 1: obviously tampered with then Thailand all was never able to 730 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: explain what happened. Yeah, and then within five days of 731 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 1: her death, eight states outright band the capsules, Thailand All Capsules, right, 732 00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 1: and Thailand all for its part, was like, we've been 733 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 1: trying to get everybody to take caplets anyway, but they 734 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 1: keep taking capsules, so we're making it. And then a 735 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 1: guy wrote a book, right, Um Scott Bart's Yeah, a 736 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:13,440 Speaker 1: former Johnson and Johnson employee, Um wrote in two thousand 737 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 1: eleven a self published book, UM on the Time of 738 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,240 Speaker 1: All Poisonings, And he said what we were talking about earlier. 739 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:24,640 Speaker 1: He's like, the supply chain is so convoluted, Um, basically 740 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 1: like it could definitely could have happened at any point 741 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,960 Speaker 1: along the way. And his his idea is that that 742 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,279 Speaker 1: Johnson and Johnson knew that it was in their distribution 743 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 1: network and they covered it up self published book. Yeah, 744 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,360 Speaker 1: you gotta you gotta note that for sure. I'm not 745 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,959 Speaker 1: knocking it, no, but it's noteworthy. It does if there's 746 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 1: like any hint of journalistic integrity and us that feels 747 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,880 Speaker 1: like we have to note that. So that's the title, 748 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 1: and All Poisonings of nineteen eighty two in Chicago changed America, 749 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 1: changed the world, but definitely changed America. It was the 750 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: end of some form of innocence that we still had. Absolutely, 751 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 1: if you want to know more about the tile and 752 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,800 Speaker 1: all poisonings, go online. There's stuff all over the place 753 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,520 Speaker 1: and you can go down that rabbit hole and it's 754 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,720 Speaker 1: deep and wide. Since I said that, it's time for listener, 755 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:20,120 Speaker 1: ma'am uh. This is from Gin from Brunswick, Maine. Hey, guys, 756 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:21,960 Speaker 1: been listening for several years and never thought I'd have 757 00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:26,719 Speaker 1: a never thought a perfect time right to write in 758 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:31,560 Speaker 1: would be related to synthetic farts. Remember the discussed episode 759 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,239 Speaker 1: we talked about synth synthetic parts. It's a real thing. 760 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:37,320 Speaker 1: When I was in high school, my dad came across 761 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:43,320 Speaker 1: the stuff online called liquid a s s as horrible. 762 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: Not allowed to curse right that ourson would spell it 763 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,880 Speaker 1: out though, um or, I guess maybe you should have 764 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:56,239 Speaker 1: said like a asterisk asterisk. Yeah, there you go, good 765 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,400 Speaker 1: name for a product, though she said he found it 766 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,239 Speaker 1: on a joke web website in order to and I 767 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 1: have to tell you it is the worst thing you've 768 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: ever smelled. I can't even describe it. It makes you 769 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,680 Speaker 1: want to not breathe anymore. The tiniest little drop is deadly, 770 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 1: So of course I took it to college with me 771 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,839 Speaker 1: to play pranks, and boy did it backfire. I thought 772 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:15,719 Speaker 1: I was pretty funny putting a couple of drops in 773 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 1: the radiator by my across the friend across the hall 774 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,560 Speaker 1: friends room, not eating things, and not even thinking about 775 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 1: what would happen when the heat turned on. Well, the 776 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,360 Speaker 1: heat turned on, and the whole floor of the dorm 777 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,320 Speaker 1: was amazingly disgusting and made us just about gag. Smells 778 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,040 Speaker 1: took almost a week to finally go away, and I 779 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,200 Speaker 1: have not used it again in the ten year since. 780 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,600 Speaker 1: It's probably it's called learning your lesson. But she still 781 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 1: has the bottle. She's like, but I kept it just 782 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,280 Speaker 1: in case. Thank you for your interesting and entertaining podcast. 783 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,239 Speaker 1: This is the first podcast ever listened to and it's 784 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: still always on the top of my download list. Thanks 785 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: for giving this twenty eight year old woman a platform 786 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:56,080 Speaker 1: on which to tell a story of synthetic farts that 787 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,120 Speaker 1: is not completely out of place. Signed anonymous that is 788 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 1: Jen Green. Thanks Jen Green, very brave you to put 789 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,640 Speaker 1: your name on that one. Especially I wonder if you 790 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:08,799 Speaker 1: stepped up and said that horrible smell. That was my bad. 791 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,279 Speaker 1: If you have a great story about college pranks, we 792 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:14,279 Speaker 1: want to hear about it. Um You can get in 793 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:16,880 Speaker 1: touch with this via our social links by going to 794 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,399 Speaker 1: stuff you Should Know dot com, or you can send 795 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:27,040 Speaker 1: us an email to Stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. 796 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,280 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeart Radios 797 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,839 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, 798 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,600 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 799 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:35,800 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.