Speaker 1: A lot of what has to do with feeding this
Speaker 1: good wolf have to do with the natural world. For me,
Speaker 1: welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers
Speaker 1: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes
Speaker 1: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 1: think ring true, and yet for many of us, our
Speaker 1: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks
Speaker 1: for joining us today. Our guest on this episode is
Speaker 1: musician and songwriter Tony Dekker, and those who know Tony
Speaker 1: as frontman for the acclaimed Canadian band Great Lake Swimmers
Speaker 1: will be happy to hear his new solo album, Prayer
Speaker 1: of the Woods. You can find out more about Tony
Speaker 1: Decker and this podcast and our show notes at one
Speaker 1: you Feed dot net slash Tony. Hi, Tony, Welcome to
Speaker 1: the show. Thanks so much for having me. I'm really
Speaker 1: excited to get you on. I'm a I'm a fan
Speaker 1: of your music and I was first exposed to you
Speaker 1: in the mountains of Colorado, which is, I will argue,
Speaker 1: perhaps the ideal place too to hear your music play
Speaker 1: years mate, you play sears. A lot of people try
Speaker 1: and write about nature, and I think we'll talk a
Speaker 1: little bit more about this as we go on, but
Speaker 1: it's really hard, I think, to do it in a
Speaker 1: way that's not corny or heavy handed. And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: nature has got that sort of um power and beauty
Speaker 1: that's really difficult to capture. But amazingly I think your
Speaker 1: music does capture that with that power and beauty. So
Speaker 1: I'm really excited to have you and um. Our podcast
Speaker 1: is called The One You Feed and it's based on
Speaker 1: the Old parable where there's a grandfather who is talking
Speaker 1: with his grandson and he says, in life, there are
Speaker 1: two wolves inside of us who are always at war.
Speaker 1: One is a good wolf who represents kindness and love
Speaker 1: and joy, and the other is a bad wolf who
Speaker 1: represents hatred and greed and fear. And pick your poison,
Speaker 1: and the grandson stops and he thinks, and he says, well, grandfather,
Speaker 1: which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed.
Speaker 1: So I'd like to start the interview off by asking
Speaker 1: you what that parable means to you in both your
Speaker 1: life and in your work. Yeah. Well, I really like
Speaker 1: the parable, and I've been thinking about it a little
Speaker 1: bit this afternoon, sort of just in preparation, UM, of
Speaker 1: talking with you. And for me, I think that, UM,
Speaker 1: a lot of what has to do with this sort
Speaker 1: of feeding this good wolf is have to do with
Speaker 1: the natural world for me and being in touch with
Speaker 1: that very closely, and things that are important to me
Speaker 1: and my work are tend to very much revolve around that,
Speaker 1: and not so much um, the negative aspects of it,
Speaker 1: but the positive aspects of it. UM. And I think
Speaker 1: that we're surrounded by both today and more and more
Speaker 1: we're understanding the the huge effects of the negative aspects
Speaker 1: of what's happening to our our natural world in a
Speaker 1: larger sense that the planet, in our environment in general,
Speaker 1: and what we're doing to as as societies and as
Speaker 1: humans and um. But for me, the focus from the
Speaker 1: beginning with my work with great Lake Swimmers, and my
Speaker 1: writing has always been to really focus on the sort
Speaker 1: of the beautiful aspects of it and the positive aspects
Speaker 1: of it, and to not take on such a sort
Speaker 1: of a doomsday approach to it, which I also appreciate
Speaker 1: and respect and I think is necessary. But I think
Speaker 1: that really focusing on the beautiful parts, the stuff that
Speaker 1: we already have in the stuff that we can preserve, um,
Speaker 1: and how we can make things better for our future
Speaker 1: generations is sort of something that I've tried to focus
Speaker 1: on excellent and that that connection to nature obviously really
Speaker 1: comes through in your music. When did you first discover that?
Speaker 1: I think I read somewhere that you grew up on
Speaker 1: a farm. When did you first sort of notice that
Speaker 1: nature did something for you that was really positive? Well,
Speaker 1: I think that being raised in a really rural community,
Speaker 1: of farming community, growing up a small town on the
Speaker 1: north part of Lake Erie Um in Ontario, being around farmers,
Speaker 1: for example, UM, growing up, you come to realize very
Speaker 1: quickly that a lot really depends on things like weather
Speaker 1: systems in the environment, and UM you have to pay
Speaker 1: very close attention to these kinds of things, what's happening
Speaker 1: in the natural world um in order to kind of
Speaker 1: see see in order to see it produced kind of
Speaker 1: you know, um over the years. And I think as
Speaker 1: a young kid that that really that was really embedded
Speaker 1: in me, that I really came to terms with having
Speaker 1: a certain amount of respect for it and also realizing
Speaker 1: the sort of the power of it and and that
Speaker 1: ultimately where at its mercy. And I think that in
Speaker 1: a farming community you see that a lot more UM directly,
Speaker 1: so that that that's something that's been with me for
Speaker 1: since quite a young age, the impact in the sort
Speaker 1: of connection with nature because it's sort of inescapable, and
Speaker 1: that in that case, right because like you said, you
Speaker 1: are so dependent upon it. Another thing that comes up
Speaker 1: in your work a lot is that you talk about
Speaker 1: sort of a kind of spirituality in nature UM and
Speaker 1: the spirituality in the places that you've chosen to record.
Speaker 1: And I was curious what that word spirituality means to you.
Speaker 1: I think it means a lot of different things to people,
Speaker 1: but I'd be really interested in in what it means
Speaker 1: to you. It all ties into like a sense of
Speaker 1: kind of reflection, it's sent It ties into like a
Speaker 1: sense of a higher power potentially, or a greater power
Speaker 1: than yourself. UM. To me, that's that's what it kind
Speaker 1: of means. It's a way to get to kind of
Speaker 1: like connect with something greater than yourself. I think that's
Speaker 1: what I mean when I when I talk about spirituality
Speaker 1: and in the natural world and as far as the environments, UM,
Speaker 1: there's this kind of there's a sense. UM why we've
Speaker 1: chosen to mostly do location recordings over the last decade
Speaker 1: of recording music UM is to kind of tap into
Speaker 1: that sense of atmosphere and to tap into some of
Speaker 1: that energy that I feel that really charges up some
Speaker 1: some rooms that are special. And by special rooms, I mean, UM,
Speaker 1: there are certain rooms, they're certain buildings that are given
Speaker 1: importance in various different ways in our society and and
Speaker 1: uh and it includes UM churches in particular that I
Speaker 1: found that UM, they really draw out a certain kind
Speaker 1: of performance in in in me as a musician as
Speaker 1: a singer, and also with the musicians and people that
Speaker 1: I work with UM to make these records. So that's
Speaker 1: been a really important thing too, is to sort of
Speaker 1: draw on some of that draw on some of that
Speaker 1: sort of unique energy that that I feel it is
Speaker 1: there in special buildings like that I know that the
Speaker 1: most recent Great Lake Swimmers record was recorded um in
Speaker 1: the studio. How about your most recent record, your solo
Speaker 1: Where did you record that one? The solo record was
Speaker 1: recorded in um, a sort of historic church on the St.
Speaker 1: Lawrence River in the Thousand Islands region, which is mostly
Speaker 1: where we recorded are two thousand and nine album Last
Speaker 1: Channels UM. But I we had done a few sessions
Speaker 1: in the church. They're called St. Brendan's St. Brennan Navigator, Uh,
Speaker 1: And it's on a pretty unique sort of rock cliff
Speaker 1: overlooking the St. Lawrence River, and it's it's been there
Speaker 1: for um since I think the late if I'm not mistaken,
Speaker 1: UM sometimes around that time anyway, And so I had
Speaker 1: always had this place in mind in the back of
Speaker 1: my mind. I could really like to go back there.
Speaker 1: I had a really positive recording session, they're really great
Speaker 1: UM session and always wanted to go back. And so
Speaker 1: when I had this group of songs for this, this
Speaker 1: most recent solo album, I went back there. So that
Speaker 1: was a It's a town called RockBoard, Ontario. Well, I
Speaker 1: love the I love the new record. It it is
Speaker 1: your your solo record is really is really uh enjoyable. Um,
Speaker 1: I want to ask you a couple of questions about
Speaker 1: some of the songs that are on there. I know
Speaker 1: musicians and writers hate to be asked what a song means,
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna try and stay away from that, But
Speaker 1: there are things in them that I think are are
Speaker 1: relevant to kind of what we're talking about. The one
Speaker 1: is in final song has lost It's great, want to
Speaker 1: thank me? Good to think? Don't you think? But don't
Speaker 1: you think? It's clearly you're pondering death and sort of
Speaker 1: your legacy afterwards. And I'm curious if that's been on
Speaker 1: your mind lately. Is that a theme that you sort
Speaker 1: of think about often, sort of pondering that and and
Speaker 1: how it maybe how it influences the actions we take today. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I think that it is something that I
Speaker 1: think about quite a bit almost every day. Um. But again,
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily meant to be seen as a as
Speaker 1: a dark or Macob kind of thing. I think that
Speaker 1: it's a yeah, I don't know, I kind of just
Speaker 1: needed to write a song like that. I agree with
Speaker 1: you about the reflection on death not necessarily being a
Speaker 1: a dark or depressive activity. A lot of a lot
Speaker 1: of Buddhist meditation will will focus around that idea, which
Speaker 1: is by if you recognize that you're going to die,
Speaker 1: it makes you more aware of what you have and
Speaker 1: more cognizant of the actions you've taken and the thought
Speaker 1: you put into your life. You're a big Leonard Cohen fan.
Speaker 1: I think as a as a Canadian, you you guys
Speaker 1: share that in the background. What what about Leonard Cohen's
Speaker 1: work is really special and important to you? Well, I
Speaker 1: just I think that, you know, as a songwriter, he
Speaker 1: really sets the bar. You know, There's there's a number
Speaker 1: of songwriters that I sort of looked to and I say,
Speaker 1: that's the high water mark, you know, and that's that,
Speaker 1: you know, that's one of the people that I think
Speaker 1: really um are within the economy of writing a song
Speaker 1: or are able to really express something that um transcends
Speaker 1: the medium and the form and goes beyond you know,
Speaker 1: singing and songwriting and poetry even um and becomes something
Speaker 1: even deeper than that. And you know, and speaking about spirituality,
Speaker 1: I mean and and become something um spiritual in a way.
Speaker 1: I've been listening to Leonard Cohen now for since my
Speaker 1: teens and so that's been close to twenty years. Um,
Speaker 1: I just kind of see him as as a as
Speaker 1: a sort of a spiritual leader or a priest almost
Speaker 1: a song One of the things about Leonard Cohen that
Speaker 1: he's known for is writing, you know, fifty verses to
Speaker 1: get five. Is your process anything like that? Do you
Speaker 1: spend a lot of time working over your verses are
Speaker 1: very for lack of a better word, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of poetry in them. Do you spend a lot of
Speaker 1: time trying to get those words just right in the
Speaker 1: same way? Yeah, I think so. I'm really happy when
Speaker 1: I can come up with a lyric that fits well
Speaker 1: into a song. And because it's not always the case,
Speaker 1: because I think that poetry and songs are different things,
Speaker 1: and I think that they don't always translate. Um. And
Speaker 1: there are times when I think I have a great
Speaker 1: piece of writing, but it just doesn't really work as
Speaker 1: a song, and so then I either have to abandon
Speaker 1: it or or modify it and work with it in shape.
Speaker 1: It's more to bring it into a form that um
Speaker 1: will be effective. I think in in song and with
Speaker 1: melody and the other you know, the other works the
Speaker 1: other way too. You know, something sound great when their
Speaker 1: sung and they're meaningful and um and they express an
Speaker 1: emotion or they express something I've abstract or an emotional
Speaker 1: feeling or almost like a stream of conscious consciousness or
Speaker 1: a collage of words, and then but they don't scan
Speaker 1: well as a poem, you know, So I guess I'm
Speaker 1: I'm looking for the place where those kinds of things overlap.
Speaker 1: Do you write poetry on its own? Do you have
Speaker 1: any any plans to publish anything like that? Are you
Speaker 1: pretty much strictly a songwriter? Oh, I don't have any
Speaker 1: plans to really publish anything like that. I do write
Speaker 1: poetry as much as I write songs. But I I mean,
Speaker 1: I really feel that where I'm at this is is
Speaker 1: writting performing songs. And you, guys, I think I heard
Speaker 1: you say that the Great Lake Swimmers are already at
Speaker 1: work on the next record. Yeah. You know, some some
Speaker 1: people have said to me about, you know, doing the
Speaker 1: solo record, that kind of signals something like maybe you know,
Speaker 1: some sort of discord or discontent within the band. But
Speaker 1: we've we've already started doing some sessions and we're working
Speaker 1: on a new record right now. So all's well with
Speaker 1: the band. We're well into are you back in the
Speaker 1: studio or do you have a special place. UM. We've
Speaker 1: done a few sessions in reproduction. I'm still kind of
Speaker 1: trying to decide on how it's all going to unfold.
Speaker 1: I'd really like to go back to a special location UM,
Speaker 1: because I feel that it sounds kind of like backwards.
Speaker 1: But after doing four records worth of location recording, so
Speaker 1: to speak, in different kinds of buildings and scenarios, UM,
Speaker 1: going into the studio is a bit of an experiment
Speaker 1: for us or and for me after after many years
Speaker 1: of not recording in the studio, and and so for me,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's kind of made, it's reinforced the
Speaker 1: idea that there is something special that comes out of
Speaker 1: special location recordings, and whether it's whether it's acoustics and
Speaker 1: and something that's sonically a little bit different than what
Speaker 1: you can get in the studio, which is a big
Speaker 1: part of it UM. And you know, there's nothing that
Speaker 1: really can replace that sort of natural reverb UM. And
Speaker 1: also getting something out of out of the room itself
Speaker 1: as a as a place, as a kind of as
Speaker 1: an entity into itself as almost another instrument um and
Speaker 1: uh and force you know, in with in the process.
Speaker 1: So I'm I've got a few things in mind that
Speaker 1: I'd like to maybe try out for the next one.
Speaker 1: Into to a lot of your music, it sounds like
Speaker 1: you're sitting in a forest when it's being written, or
Speaker 1: or a lot of different places. Where do you write Usually, Well,
Speaker 1: I try to get out as much as I can,
Speaker 1: and and you know, get out and be close to nature,
Speaker 1: be in the woods, and and and be away from cities.
Speaker 1: Um and uh, that's what I feel I really draw
Speaker 1: upon when I when I sit down to write. Um,
Speaker 1: I've got a little apartment in Toronto. Um and uh
Speaker 1: it's really near a big park here. Um And I
Speaker 1: mean I tend not to be able to write on
Speaker 1: the road so much, I you know, unless I'm taking
Speaker 1: a trip specifically for writing. But um, you know that's
Speaker 1: it's it's those kinds of trips into into more remote
Speaker 1: areas that I think leads the deepest impact on me.
Speaker 1: And it's what I drop up on when I sit
Speaker 1: down to write, regardless of where that is. Speaking of
Speaker 1: remote areas, you went on an educational tour or trip
Speaker 1: to Antarctica. Can you share a little bit about that.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm fascinated by going to Antarctica at all. Yeah,
Speaker 1: m that was a really unique opportunity that came up.
Speaker 1: UM and there's an organization called Students on Ice UM
Speaker 1: and it's a Canadian based organization and they do trips
Speaker 1: with about fifty students from around North America primarily, but
Speaker 1: around the world. But they have lectures and I'm talking about, like,
Speaker 1: you know, really a full spectrum of of what you
Speaker 1: might find in a curriculum, almost that there would be
Speaker 1: for example of a marine biologist or an environmental scientists. UM.
Speaker 1: They had an arts component which had visual artists and
Speaker 1: writers and and they had asked me to come along
Speaker 1: to do a music component, and so I went along
Speaker 1: and UM, I think that I learned as much as
Speaker 1: I was able to teach you about UM songwriting and
Speaker 1: some a little bit of storytelling and song and sharing
Speaker 1: my creative process and basically being open to a group
Speaker 1: of students who wanted to who had any interest in UM,
Speaker 1: you know, a creative process. And by the end of
Speaker 1: it was was working on songs with with some of
Speaker 1: the kids there. So that was really important for a
Speaker 1: number of reasons. There was that aspect of it and
Speaker 1: UM which I think is fantastic for some of our
Speaker 1: future leaders. What's it like in Antarctica? Where do you
Speaker 1: where do you stay? Is there community? Is it all
Speaker 1: one building? I don't really I don't understand what what
Speaker 1: it's like there. UM Well, basically there is. There was
Speaker 1: a a repurposed and and sort of modified research vessel.
Speaker 1: UM ship was is where everyone stayed. There's cabins on
Speaker 1: the ship UM and that was home base. UM. Not
Speaker 1: one of those big, big cruise ships that you would imagine,
Speaker 1: but quite a small a thing. Is considered quite a
Speaker 1: small vessel, research vessel. Pop. It doesn't technically belong to
Speaker 1: anyone UM. People there have there. There are a number
Speaker 1: of different countries that have interest there. But there was
Speaker 1: it was. I think there's a moratorium that's still in
Speaker 1: place on on you know, uh ownership and exploitation of
Speaker 1: it as a continent special place. But as far as
Speaker 1: how it's set up, there are a few there are
Speaker 1: outposts there, but there they're very remote. UM research stations.
Speaker 1: An Arctica sounds like a great place for the next record.
Speaker 1: Have you considered that? I think that might be the
Speaker 1: final straw with your engineer if you tried to go
Speaker 1: to Antarctica. Absolutely, they have a hard enough time with
Speaker 1: church falls in the lake. So I'm going to uh
Speaker 1: to break the card the rule of asking you what
Speaker 1: something means. I'm gonna read you a lyric from the
Speaker 1: new album, and I'm just really curious because it's it's
Speaker 1: very um. I really like it, and it says it's
Speaker 1: from the empty Arms song. It says a loner landed
Speaker 1: and made new land, empty arms starting over again, held
Speaker 1: new words over old thundering ways, and empty arms starting
Speaker 1: on thundering ways and clears five. Listen, it's really that
Speaker 1: last sentence held new words over old thundering ways. Is
Speaker 1: that anymore that you could tell us about that? Well,
Speaker 1: it's interesting that he kicked that one because it kind
Speaker 1: of ties into a little bit of what we were
Speaker 1: talking about earlier. I get really excited when when home,
Speaker 1: one of people writing that I've written separately without coming
Speaker 1: up with any sort of melody or or rhythm or
Speaker 1: structure for fits really well into a piece of music.
Speaker 1: And and that was one where I didn't have to
Speaker 1: change very much in order for it to just kind
Speaker 1: of um drop in. It worked well both as a poem,
Speaker 1: worked really well both as a poem and a song,
Speaker 1: and I really spent a lot of time trying to
Speaker 1: distill that language and and really sort of make it
Speaker 1: as concise as I could. And this is something I
Speaker 1: strive for with all of my songs. But I think
Speaker 1: that the more you sort of break them down and
Speaker 1: try to pull them apart, the more rewarding that they
Speaker 1: sort of become. And I think that as you do that,
Speaker 1: you start to find connections within it that start to
Speaker 1: tell the story and and what I hope is an
Speaker 1: interesting way. Yeah, and I liked sort of back to
Speaker 1: the to the wolf theme and feeding the good Wolf
Speaker 1: the held new words over all thundering ways sort of
Speaker 1: felt to me like that feeding the good Wolf potentially
Speaker 1: with with these new words in this new this new
Speaker 1: life versus the old thundering ways, which at least I
Speaker 1: was interpreting for myself as old habits, old ways of thinking. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's a that's a fair reading for sure.
Speaker 1: Do you have anything else on the on the theme
Speaker 1: of the show that you would like us to talk
Speaker 1: about that we haven't discussed. I think one of the
Speaker 1: great ways that you can can feed the good wolf,
Speaker 1: you know, like, as we started talking about is is
Speaker 1: that I found that I've been thinking about it a
Speaker 1: lot lately, is trying to maintain this childlike sense of wonder.
Speaker 1: And we know there's a big difference between being childish
Speaker 1: and being childlike, but I think trying to kind of
Speaker 1: maintain that one part of yourself that is always kind
Speaker 1: of curious and and uh and as childlike and comes
Speaker 1: out the world in a childlike way, um, it really
Speaker 1: allows you to embrace it in a different way. And
Speaker 1: especially when it comes to the natural world, that I
Speaker 1: feel that for myself, I'm I'm endlessly curious and endlessly
Speaker 1: fascinated by things that I come into contact with in
Speaker 1: the natural world, whether it's the way that like a
Speaker 1: leaf works or the way that you know, the wolf
Speaker 1: a wolf pack will build a network of pathways through
Speaker 1: through the underbrush of a forest, you know. And and
Speaker 1: I think that there's something that we can all learn
Speaker 1: from that. And I think things like caring for animals
Speaker 1: or even just caring for plants is a step closer
Speaker 1: to caring for each other and caring for people. On
Speaker 1: the song UM off the new record, A Prayer for
Speaker 1: the Woods, I know that you you found that as
Speaker 1: a sign at a park. Was the whole poem there
Speaker 1: or did you end up writing additional parts for it? No,
Speaker 1: that's the whole poem. I adapted certain parts of it
Speaker 1: and change the language a little bit just because some
Speaker 1: of it was kind of outdated language. But um, I
Speaker 1: wanted to really preserve the the sort of the entirety
Speaker 1: of it. But on which you La and Tim that
Speaker 1: so superassed by listen to my prayer. What I really
Speaker 1: like about it and the way you interpret it is
Speaker 1: really beautiful. I like the way it sort of brings
Speaker 1: home the value that those forests have in to all
Speaker 1: the objects that are are that are in our lives,
Speaker 1: which I thought was a very poignant way to sort
Speaker 1: of connect ourselves to the forest. I think so too,
Speaker 1: and and and and it's it's very simple language. It
Speaker 1: is almost like a terrible and it does have that
Speaker 1: a sense of childlike kind of wonder to it. Yep. Well,
Speaker 1: I think we're kind of at the end of our
Speaker 1: time here, So Tony, I want to thank you very
Speaker 1: much for for joining us. It's been a pleasure talking
Speaker 1: with you. As I said earlier, I really love your
Speaker 1: music and looking forward to hearing the new Great Lake
Speaker 1: Swimmers record um My Pleasure, Thanks for thanks for having me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're welcome, Take care, tell you too, Bye bye. You
Speaker 1: can find out more about Tony Decker and this podcast
Speaker 1: and our show notes at one you feed dot net
Speaker 1: slash Tony