1 00:00:15,276 --> 00:00:23,596 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Here was the original contract for Liars Poker, January 2 00:00:23,636 --> 00:00:27,116 Speaker 1: eighty eight, and the title on the contract was Fast 3 00:00:27,196 --> 00:00:30,916 Speaker 1: and Loose in the Golden Years? Do you believe that? God? 4 00:00:30,956 --> 00:00:34,636 Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's right all right? Here is an 5 00:00:34,676 --> 00:00:37,396 Speaker 1: information sheet that they wrote when they were trying to 6 00:00:37,396 --> 00:00:40,996 Speaker 1: figure out what it was. This can accurately be described 7 00:00:41,036 --> 00:00:44,596 Speaker 1: as a nonfiction bonfire of the vanities, and Michael Lewis 8 00:00:44,676 --> 00:00:47,196 Speaker 1: himself was nothing other than a master of the universe, 9 00:00:47,436 --> 00:00:49,756 Speaker 1: the term actually used on the Solomon Trading floor. His 10 00:00:49,796 --> 00:00:53,956 Speaker 1: big Swinging Dick, Lewis describes from the inside his rake's 11 00:00:54,036 --> 00:00:57,716 Speaker 1: progress through the fabulous palace of greed, ambition and folly 12 00:00:57,836 --> 00:01:00,356 Speaker 1: that was Solomon Brothers in the nineteen eighties. This is 13 00:01:00,396 --> 00:01:05,596 Speaker 1: a born storyteller, blah blah blah, A storytelling asset. Yeah, 14 00:01:05,676 --> 00:01:10,956 Speaker 1: how about that, a story telling asset who, for the 15 00:01:10,956 --> 00:01:13,796 Speaker 1: rest of his career will be known mainly as the 16 00:01:13,836 --> 00:01:17,436 Speaker 1: guy who coined the phrase big swinging dick, which I 17 00:01:17,476 --> 00:01:20,236 Speaker 1: didn't even do. But there was some truth in that 18 00:01:20,276 --> 00:01:25,636 Speaker 1: phrase because it's Solomon Brothers. Anatomy was destiny. The sexism 19 00:01:25,676 --> 00:01:28,756 Speaker 1: there was from another age. Even at the time it 20 00:01:28,836 --> 00:01:32,716 Speaker 1: shocked me. I mean For example, it was fairly common 21 00:01:32,756 --> 00:01:35,156 Speaker 1: for strippers to turn up on the trading floor and 22 00:01:35,236 --> 00:01:36,996 Speaker 1: get up on one of the guy's desks and take 23 00:01:37,036 --> 00:01:40,436 Speaker 1: off all their clothes, and no one thought that was weird. 24 00:01:41,276 --> 00:01:43,196 Speaker 1: They thought it was just like what happens on a 25 00:01:43,236 --> 00:01:46,996 Speaker 1: trading floor. But that kind of stuff maybe wasn't as 26 00:01:47,076 --> 00:01:50,396 Speaker 1: important as the message that women got, the message that 27 00:01:50,436 --> 00:01:57,356 Speaker 1: they were, in the end, not all that valuable. Bonds, 28 00:01:57,396 --> 00:02:00,436 Speaker 1: bonds and more bonds. Anyone who did not want to 29 00:02:00,476 --> 00:02:02,996 Speaker 1: trade them for a living wanted to sell them. This 30 00:02:03,076 --> 00:02:06,396 Speaker 1: group now included several women who had initially hoped to 31 00:02:06,396 --> 00:02:12,796 Speaker 1: trade at Solomon Brothers traded women's soul. No one ever 32 00:02:12,916 --> 00:02:16,036 Speaker 1: questioned the Solomon ordering of the sexes, but the immediate 33 00:02:16,116 --> 00:02:19,116 Speaker 1: consequence of the prohibition of women in trading was clear 34 00:02:19,156 --> 00:02:25,636 Speaker 1: to all. It kept women farther from power. It turns 35 00:02:25,636 --> 00:02:27,916 Speaker 1: out that one of my mentors at Solomon Brothers was 36 00:02:27,956 --> 00:02:30,396 Speaker 1: a woman. She's who kind of plucked me from the 37 00:02:30,396 --> 00:02:32,836 Speaker 1: training program and found me a place on the trading floor. 38 00:02:32,836 --> 00:02:35,676 Speaker 1: Her name was Leslie Christian, and we had a kind 39 00:02:35,676 --> 00:02:39,276 Speaker 1: of running conversation about what it was like for her 40 00:02:39,396 --> 00:02:43,596 Speaker 1: in this guy's place. Her voice was somewhere in the 41 00:02:43,596 --> 00:02:45,236 Speaker 1: back of my head when I was writing the book, 42 00:02:45,996 --> 00:02:48,436 Speaker 1: how do you think Liar's Poker would have been different 43 00:02:48,476 --> 00:02:51,676 Speaker 1: if I had been a woman? Oh, my gosh, she 44 00:02:51,756 --> 00:02:56,116 Speaker 1: would have had I can only speak for myself. I 45 00:02:56,196 --> 00:03:01,476 Speaker 1: don't think it would have been as I don't. I'm 46 00:03:01,516 --> 00:03:03,396 Speaker 1: not saying it was easy for you to write the book. 47 00:03:03,476 --> 00:03:08,436 Speaker 1: I don't think I could have been that balanced. And 48 00:03:08,476 --> 00:03:11,596 Speaker 1: I what I mean, as you there's an element of 49 00:03:11,756 --> 00:03:15,716 Speaker 1: or a flavor of you're you know, you're sort of 50 00:03:15,716 --> 00:03:17,796 Speaker 1: in it. You're kind of in there, You're in it, 51 00:03:17,836 --> 00:03:20,796 Speaker 1: but not of it, and it's kind of funny, and 52 00:03:20,876 --> 00:03:27,196 Speaker 1: it's kind of shocking. I think women um feel it deeper. 53 00:03:27,956 --> 00:03:30,636 Speaker 1: There were times when I was sobbing, Or was the 54 00:03:30,716 --> 00:03:32,836 Speaker 1: time I went to a lawyer and said, can I 55 00:03:32,876 --> 00:03:35,436 Speaker 1: do something about this? You know I was treated poorly. 56 00:03:35,676 --> 00:03:38,556 Speaker 1: I wasn't treated poorly like harassment or anything. I wasn't 57 00:03:38,596 --> 00:03:41,676 Speaker 1: I didn't get an assignment I wanted, and and then 58 00:03:41,676 --> 00:03:47,996 Speaker 1: that constantly having to be on alert, to be professional 59 00:03:48,276 --> 00:03:52,396 Speaker 1: and to be taken seriously. I don't think I could 60 00:03:52,476 --> 00:03:54,556 Speaker 1: not have written that book, No way. I didn't have 61 00:03:54,636 --> 00:03:56,996 Speaker 1: that same I didn't have the same exposure either. I mean, 62 00:03:57,036 --> 00:04:00,076 Speaker 1: I think guys talk differently when they're not around women. 63 00:04:00,516 --> 00:04:02,596 Speaker 1: So you felt left out of some of the conversation. 64 00:04:02,836 --> 00:04:04,676 Speaker 1: Oh sure, I know I was left out. I mean 65 00:04:04,956 --> 00:04:07,516 Speaker 1: that's one of my things I laugh about now, is 66 00:04:07,836 --> 00:04:11,716 Speaker 1: I really had no idea they were arranging prostitutes for 67 00:04:11,916 --> 00:04:14,876 Speaker 1: clients or buying drugs for clients. I really I had. 68 00:04:14,876 --> 00:04:18,636 Speaker 1: That was completely off my radar. So in a funny way, 69 00:04:18,756 --> 00:04:20,836 Speaker 1: the firm was less visible to you than it was 70 00:04:20,876 --> 00:04:22,316 Speaker 1: to me. You think a woman wouldn't have had the 71 00:04:22,396 --> 00:04:27,236 Speaker 1: visibility into the firm, That's right. Yeah, Leslie actually left 72 00:04:27,236 --> 00:04:29,796 Speaker 1: Solomon Brothers around the time I did. She's now a 73 00:04:29,836 --> 00:04:33,556 Speaker 1: senior investment advisor at something called north Star Asset Management, 74 00:04:33,556 --> 00:04:36,996 Speaker 1: which is a firm that does socially responsible investing. I 75 00:04:37,036 --> 00:04:39,316 Speaker 1: guess we'd both like to think that things had gotten 76 00:04:39,396 --> 00:04:41,956 Speaker 1: better for women on Wall Street since the nineteen eighties, 77 00:04:42,476 --> 00:04:45,236 Speaker 1: and you know, obviously, from a distance it looks like 78 00:04:45,276 --> 00:04:48,476 Speaker 1: they have. But in this episode, we're going to ask 79 00:04:49,156 --> 00:04:53,356 Speaker 1: have they actually gotten better? I'm Michael Lewis and welcome 80 00:04:53,396 --> 00:04:57,596 Speaker 1: back to Other People's Money, a companion podcast to Liar's Poker. 81 00:04:58,436 --> 00:05:10,676 Speaker 1: This is episode three, Fast and loose in the golden years, 82 00:05:15,236 --> 00:05:17,716 Speaker 1: I find myself still wanting to know what Wall Street 83 00:05:17,756 --> 00:05:19,596 Speaker 1: looks like through the eyes of a woman, not just 84 00:05:19,996 --> 00:05:22,796 Speaker 1: back then when I was there, but now. So I 85 00:05:22,836 --> 00:05:26,876 Speaker 1: called up a woman named Anne Clark Wolf. She's had 86 00:05:26,876 --> 00:05:29,996 Speaker 1: an incredibly successful run on Wall Street. She became the 87 00:05:30,076 --> 00:05:32,876 Speaker 1: chairman of Bank of America's Corporate and Investment banking division. 88 00:05:33,356 --> 00:05:36,316 Speaker 1: American Banker has called her one of the most powerful 89 00:05:36,356 --> 00:05:40,276 Speaker 1: women to watch on Wall Street, and just recently she 90 00:05:40,316 --> 00:05:43,236 Speaker 1: announced that she was leaving big banks to start her 91 00:05:43,276 --> 00:05:48,156 Speaker 1: own investment bank, which she calls Independence Point Advisors, and 92 00:05:48,196 --> 00:05:50,036 Speaker 1: has said that it will be made up of at 93 00:05:50,076 --> 00:05:53,196 Speaker 1: least seventy percent women and people of color, which is 94 00:05:53,196 --> 00:05:57,676 Speaker 1: to say, no more than thirty percent white men. And 95 00:05:57,756 --> 00:06:01,516 Speaker 1: the firm already has a nickname. How did you get 96 00:06:01,556 --> 00:06:04,756 Speaker 1: the nickname? Solomon Sisters? I just loved the pun of 97 00:06:04,836 --> 00:06:09,756 Speaker 1: Solomon's Sisters versus Solomon Brothers. One reason loves the pun 98 00:06:09,956 --> 00:06:12,076 Speaker 1: is that she actually was in the training program of 99 00:06:12,116 --> 00:06:15,956 Speaker 1: Solomon Brothers three years after me. Her experience of that 100 00:06:16,156 --> 00:06:20,876 Speaker 1: was different in one important way. She was reading Liars Poker. 101 00:06:21,716 --> 00:06:25,556 Speaker 1: I read it in the training program at Solomon Brothers. 102 00:06:26,036 --> 00:06:30,876 Speaker 1: One mimiographed page at a time. So when we started 103 00:06:30,876 --> 00:06:33,876 Speaker 1: in the training program in August of eighty nine, and 104 00:06:33,916 --> 00:06:37,676 Speaker 1: we were the class who was hired after the crash 105 00:06:37,716 --> 00:06:40,876 Speaker 1: of eighty seven, so we were a very small class, 106 00:06:40,876 --> 00:06:44,196 Speaker 1: but literally a page of your book would work its 107 00:06:44,196 --> 00:06:47,996 Speaker 1: way down the aisle every day. So the book came 108 00:06:48,036 --> 00:06:52,116 Speaker 1: out October of eighty nine, so you must have been 109 00:06:52,116 --> 00:06:53,716 Speaker 1: the tail end. It must have been the tail end 110 00:06:53,756 --> 00:06:56,356 Speaker 1: of your training class. And so was it a mimiograph 111 00:06:56,396 --> 00:07:00,276 Speaker 1: of from the actual book. I don't know whether someone 112 00:07:00,316 --> 00:07:02,236 Speaker 1: got their hands on it or whether it would just 113 00:07:02,276 --> 00:07:05,796 Speaker 1: look like photocopied pages to me, but I distinctly remember 114 00:07:05,836 --> 00:07:09,036 Speaker 1: reading it that way, which is a pretty disconnected way 115 00:07:09,196 --> 00:07:11,436 Speaker 1: to read a book. So that's why I enjoyed actually 116 00:07:11,476 --> 00:07:14,116 Speaker 1: going back and reading it like a real book. But 117 00:07:14,156 --> 00:07:18,436 Speaker 1: it shows you how it really resonated with people and 118 00:07:18,516 --> 00:07:20,996 Speaker 1: was clearly part of the culture. Well, one of the 119 00:07:21,036 --> 00:07:23,876 Speaker 1: reasons I suspect you were reading a mimeograph copy is 120 00:07:23,956 --> 00:07:26,276 Speaker 1: John Goodfriend told the whole firm that they weren't allowed 121 00:07:26,276 --> 00:07:29,116 Speaker 1: to buy it, so that if you wanted to read it, 122 00:07:29,596 --> 00:07:32,916 Speaker 1: photocopy it. So the training program, do you remember that 123 00:07:32,956 --> 00:07:35,556 Speaker 1: now that you say, though and do you I mean, 124 00:07:35,556 --> 00:07:37,956 Speaker 1: since we're on this, what did you make of it 125 00:07:38,036 --> 00:07:42,236 Speaker 1: at the time? So it's interesting. At the time, I 126 00:07:42,276 --> 00:07:46,036 Speaker 1: think it was a It was a celebration of some 127 00:07:46,116 --> 00:07:49,796 Speaker 1: of the great qualities of Solomon, and I think it 128 00:07:49,876 --> 00:07:53,156 Speaker 1: was also clear that there were some elements that were 129 00:07:53,196 --> 00:07:57,396 Speaker 1: probably slight exaggerations just to make the characters more interesting. 130 00:07:57,556 --> 00:07:59,716 Speaker 1: Do you think that the people sitting in your training 131 00:07:59,716 --> 00:08:03,756 Speaker 1: class passing mimeograph pages of Liars Poker to each other 132 00:08:04,156 --> 00:08:09,716 Speaker 1: would have did they recognize the training class? I described? Oh, totally, totally. 133 00:08:10,556 --> 00:08:19,796 Speaker 1: The training class descriptions were incredibly accurate. The back row 134 00:08:19,836 --> 00:08:21,796 Speaker 1: set the tone of the class because the back row 135 00:08:21,876 --> 00:08:26,596 Speaker 1: acted throughout as one indivisible, incredibly noisy unit. The back 136 00:08:26,676 --> 00:08:29,516 Speaker 1: row people moved in herds for safety and for comfort, 137 00:08:29,556 --> 00:08:31,796 Speaker 1: from the training class in the morning in early afternoon, 138 00:08:32,076 --> 00:08:33,756 Speaker 1: to the trading floor at the end of the day, 139 00:08:33,996 --> 00:08:36,156 Speaker 1: to the surf club at night, and back to the 140 00:08:36,156 --> 00:08:39,476 Speaker 1: training program the next morning. They were united by their 141 00:08:39,556 --> 00:08:42,956 Speaker 1: likes as well as their dislikes. They rewarded the speakers 142 00:08:42,956 --> 00:08:45,636 Speaker 1: of whom they approved by standing and doing the wave 143 00:08:45,716 --> 00:08:49,716 Speaker 1: across the back of the class, and they approved wholeheartedly 144 00:08:49,716 --> 00:08:51,316 Speaker 1: of the man at the front of the room. Now 145 00:08:52,756 --> 00:08:56,236 Speaker 1: the speaker paused, as if lost in thought, which was unlikely, 146 00:08:56,956 --> 00:08:59,916 Speaker 1: you know. He finally said, you think you're hot shit, 147 00:09:00,836 --> 00:09:02,796 Speaker 1: but when you start out on the trading floor, you're 148 00:09:02,796 --> 00:09:06,636 Speaker 1: going to be at the bottom. The notion again of 149 00:09:06,716 --> 00:09:08,836 Speaker 1: who sat on the front row, who sat on the 150 00:09:08,836 --> 00:09:11,956 Speaker 1: back crow. It's actually kind of stunning when I reread 151 00:09:12,036 --> 00:09:14,196 Speaker 1: it to think that. And it wasn't like it was 152 00:09:14,236 --> 00:09:16,316 Speaker 1: set up that way. It wasn't like when you walked 153 00:09:16,316 --> 00:09:19,636 Speaker 1: in the first day somebody said, you folks, you sit 154 00:09:19,716 --> 00:09:23,316 Speaker 1: there because you fit the stereotype. But it's that seemed 155 00:09:23,316 --> 00:09:26,676 Speaker 1: to just have a life of its own that perpetuated itself. 156 00:09:27,236 --> 00:09:33,036 Speaker 1: Where did you sit middle I was neither. So back 157 00:09:33,116 --> 00:09:34,436 Speaker 1: up for me a little bit and just tell me 158 00:09:34,476 --> 00:09:36,716 Speaker 1: how you ended up applying for Wall Street jobs in 159 00:09:36,756 --> 00:09:38,476 Speaker 1: the first place, Like, how did you get the bug 160 00:09:38,756 --> 00:09:41,516 Speaker 1: to work on Wall Street? I had been in economics 161 00:09:41,556 --> 00:09:45,876 Speaker 1: and English major and undergrad. I liked the intersection of 162 00:09:45,916 --> 00:09:49,876 Speaker 1: writing and data, and what I loved was that Wall 163 00:09:49,876 --> 00:09:52,556 Speaker 1: Street was a way to experience what you were reading 164 00:09:52,596 --> 00:09:55,356 Speaker 1: about on the cover of the Wall Street Journal. It's 165 00:09:55,436 --> 00:09:59,236 Speaker 1: somehow brought deals and the news to life. In a 166 00:09:59,316 --> 00:10:02,316 Speaker 1: way that you were getting a front row seat of 167 00:10:02,356 --> 00:10:06,396 Speaker 1: how those transactions came together. And I still think that 168 00:10:06,396 --> 00:10:10,236 Speaker 1: that's frankly what captivates me still today, thirty two years later. 169 00:10:10,316 --> 00:10:14,196 Speaker 1: It's an amazing opportunity to work with companies at an 170 00:10:14,236 --> 00:10:17,836 Speaker 1: interesting moment in time on something that is a really 171 00:10:17,876 --> 00:10:20,996 Speaker 1: big deal to them. And when you so you were 172 00:10:21,076 --> 00:10:23,436 Speaker 1: hired by solom bresent, you were hired into the investment 173 00:10:23,436 --> 00:10:26,196 Speaker 1: banking department, And I'm curious, like what it felt like 174 00:10:26,396 --> 00:10:29,956 Speaker 1: then to be a woman coming into this place. I 175 00:10:30,036 --> 00:10:32,556 Speaker 1: had lots of women friends who would fill my ears 176 00:10:32,556 --> 00:10:35,676 Speaker 1: with what had happened to them, But I'm curious, like 177 00:10:35,756 --> 00:10:40,116 Speaker 1: what your experience was. I had a phenomenal experience because 178 00:10:40,796 --> 00:10:46,076 Speaker 1: the men who I worked with and for treated me 179 00:10:46,236 --> 00:10:48,716 Speaker 1: like I was one of the guys, and I never 180 00:10:48,836 --> 00:10:51,516 Speaker 1: felt a gender difference. In my case. Part of that 181 00:10:51,636 --> 00:10:54,236 Speaker 1: was I was virtually married by the time I started 182 00:10:54,276 --> 00:10:57,556 Speaker 1: at Solomon, so I was probably not the most interesting 183 00:10:57,596 --> 00:11:01,916 Speaker 1: prospect of the women in my class. But I think 184 00:11:01,956 --> 00:11:04,196 Speaker 1: as we a number of us are still close friends, 185 00:11:04,236 --> 00:11:07,796 Speaker 1: and we've actually had reunions of our class over the years, 186 00:11:08,036 --> 00:11:11,636 Speaker 1: and the women have all agreed that they felt like 187 00:11:11,756 --> 00:11:16,676 Speaker 1: it was a very equal opportunity place. Ultimately, the men 188 00:11:16,836 --> 00:11:20,116 Speaker 1: just wanted who were the best and the brightest, and 189 00:11:20,236 --> 00:11:23,076 Speaker 1: did you help them get the job done. Part of 190 00:11:23,116 --> 00:11:27,356 Speaker 1: why I'm building what I'm building today is I think 191 00:11:27,356 --> 00:11:31,196 Speaker 1: it's actually far worse today than it was in nineteen 192 00:11:31,276 --> 00:11:37,316 Speaker 1: ninety because in nineteen ninety it truly was just about capitalism, 193 00:11:37,436 --> 00:11:42,316 Speaker 1: and it was a young person's business. And if the 194 00:11:42,476 --> 00:11:46,476 Speaker 1: men who I worked with and for saw that I 195 00:11:46,556 --> 00:11:49,276 Speaker 1: had anything to add to a deal team or that 196 00:11:49,436 --> 00:11:53,276 Speaker 1: I had a talent, they were all in. So if 197 00:11:53,316 --> 00:11:57,276 Speaker 1: you'd have told me that the woman who was going 198 00:11:57,356 --> 00:12:03,236 Speaker 1: to create a women's centric investment bank in two and 199 00:12:03,316 --> 00:12:06,356 Speaker 1: twenty one was going to come along with the narrative 200 00:12:06,436 --> 00:12:09,916 Speaker 1: that Solomon Brothers in nineteen eighty was a kind of 201 00:12:09,956 --> 00:12:12,876 Speaker 1: golden age compared to now, you would not have expected that. 202 00:12:12,876 --> 00:12:16,076 Speaker 1: Which for Solomon Brothers for a golden age for women, 203 00:12:16,756 --> 00:12:20,516 Speaker 1: I'd have said my head would be spinning, like like 204 00:12:20,756 --> 00:12:22,756 Speaker 1: how So I want to talk a little bit about 205 00:12:22,876 --> 00:12:26,436 Speaker 1: what why you think it might have been better for 206 00:12:26,476 --> 00:12:28,876 Speaker 1: women in Solomon Brothers in nineteen eighty nine than it 207 00:12:28,996 --> 00:12:31,116 Speaker 1: is for women now in a big Wall Street bank. 208 00:12:31,916 --> 00:12:35,036 Speaker 1: I think for women in particular, there were a couple 209 00:12:35,116 --> 00:12:39,196 Speaker 1: of themes. I noticed the first outflow of women in 210 00:12:39,196 --> 00:12:42,076 Speaker 1: the mid nineties. So as the private equity industry and 211 00:12:42,156 --> 00:12:45,556 Speaker 1: the hudge fund industry started to take off, candidly, a 212 00:12:45,596 --> 00:12:49,396 Speaker 1: lot of women who had married or were dating men 213 00:12:49,436 --> 00:12:52,996 Speaker 1: in those industries just said it was no longer worth 214 00:12:53,516 --> 00:12:57,076 Speaker 1: the aggravation, the aggravation of dating them, or an aggravation 215 00:12:57,116 --> 00:12:59,276 Speaker 1: of going to work, the aggravation of trying to be 216 00:12:59,316 --> 00:13:02,916 Speaker 1: a working spouse with them, when you know when your partner, 217 00:13:02,996 --> 00:13:07,156 Speaker 1: frankly had an incredible amount of money or an incredible 218 00:13:07,156 --> 00:13:09,676 Speaker 1: amount of upside in their role. So there were definitely 219 00:13:09,716 --> 00:13:13,916 Speaker 1: a decision by a generation of women to decide to 220 00:13:13,996 --> 00:13:17,116 Speaker 1: stay at home, which again very admirable that they were. 221 00:13:17,156 --> 00:13:18,876 Speaker 1: They were willing to do it and able to do it, 222 00:13:18,916 --> 00:13:23,796 Speaker 1: but it basically left a huge hole generationally in people 223 00:13:23,836 --> 00:13:27,396 Speaker 1: who were kind of poised to be ready than when 224 00:13:27,396 --> 00:13:30,476 Speaker 1: the street took off. God, that's interesting. So there's like 225 00:13:30,516 --> 00:13:32,996 Speaker 1: a generation of women who were put out of business 226 00:13:33,036 --> 00:13:36,396 Speaker 1: basically by more successful men in the same business. People 227 00:13:36,516 --> 00:13:40,276 Speaker 1: want to believe that women exit because the job has 228 00:13:40,356 --> 00:13:44,436 Speaker 1: long hours or is difficult. When you interview women, they 229 00:13:44,516 --> 00:13:47,476 Speaker 1: never say that. They in fact say, I can respect 230 00:13:47,476 --> 00:13:50,356 Speaker 1: the fact that it's difficult they leave because of the 231 00:13:50,436 --> 00:13:52,956 Speaker 1: lack of inclusion. So at the end of the day, 232 00:13:53,756 --> 00:13:57,596 Speaker 1: some of what I describe as the camaraderie and the 233 00:13:57,716 --> 00:14:00,996 Speaker 1: inclusion that happened at Solomon where you were part of 234 00:14:01,036 --> 00:14:03,956 Speaker 1: the team, you were part of the family. Women were 235 00:14:04,036 --> 00:14:07,356 Speaker 1: included in the NCAA pool at Solomon. You know, that 236 00:14:07,436 --> 00:14:10,836 Speaker 1: was like an incredible fun alleying moment where people would 237 00:14:10,916 --> 00:14:16,516 Speaker 1: trade shares on different teams in the NCAA. So once 238 00:14:16,556 --> 00:14:20,756 Speaker 1: you lost that camaraderie and what pulled people together, I 239 00:14:20,796 --> 00:14:23,516 Speaker 1: think it was ultimately the inclusion led a number of 240 00:14:23,556 --> 00:14:26,756 Speaker 1: people to say that they kind of checked out, and they, 241 00:14:27,396 --> 00:14:31,196 Speaker 1: interestingly almost all continue to work. They just worked in 242 00:14:31,236 --> 00:14:34,476 Speaker 1: a different capacity, whether they went in house or whether 243 00:14:34,556 --> 00:14:38,476 Speaker 1: they went on to different variations of the field. So 244 00:14:38,516 --> 00:14:42,516 Speaker 1: why were women excluded? If Solomon Brothers was a kind 245 00:14:42,556 --> 00:14:45,476 Speaker 1: of golden age of including women in things, and I 246 00:14:45,476 --> 00:14:48,156 Speaker 1: would actually kind of dispute that on the trading floor, 247 00:14:48,596 --> 00:14:50,796 Speaker 1: but I know what you're saying. It was so kind 248 00:14:50,796 --> 00:14:52,996 Speaker 1: of rough and tumble, and then if you were good 249 00:14:52,996 --> 00:14:54,996 Speaker 1: at your job, it's sort of and you were willing 250 00:14:54,996 --> 00:14:58,476 Speaker 1: to maybe ignore this comment or that comment. You moved 251 00:14:58,556 --> 00:15:00,716 Speaker 1: up in the firm. Well, by the way, I was 252 00:15:00,796 --> 00:15:04,076 Speaker 1: six months pregnant when I made managing director at Solomon, 253 00:15:04,636 --> 00:15:06,996 Speaker 1: So maybe people thought it was cute to have this 254 00:15:07,116 --> 00:15:10,556 Speaker 1: large pregnant woman in the picture with Derek Mahan and 255 00:15:10,636 --> 00:15:13,476 Speaker 1: others when they promoted me. But I thought that that 256 00:15:13,556 --> 00:15:17,956 Speaker 1: was an interesting moment that where everybody would have stereotypically said, 257 00:15:18,036 --> 00:15:21,596 Speaker 1: of course, you could never get promoted when you were pregnant. 258 00:15:21,756 --> 00:15:23,556 Speaker 1: I think that they enjoyed the fact that they were 259 00:15:23,596 --> 00:15:26,596 Speaker 1: able to prove that wrong. But describe for me the 260 00:15:26,676 --> 00:15:30,396 Speaker 1: exclusion that happens after Solomon Brothers. As time was on. 261 00:15:30,476 --> 00:15:33,716 Speaker 1: You're saying you kind of see women having a harder 262 00:15:33,756 --> 00:15:36,196 Speaker 1: time being included. How does it? What form does the 263 00:15:36,276 --> 00:15:38,756 Speaker 1: exclusion take. I'd love to be able to put a 264 00:15:38,756 --> 00:15:41,196 Speaker 1: pen in exactly what it is. But you know, I 265 00:15:41,196 --> 00:15:44,596 Speaker 1: think the other variable I would call out is in 266 00:15:44,716 --> 00:15:49,276 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety even an investment banking at Solomon, I would 267 00:15:49,276 --> 00:15:53,396 Speaker 1: guess probably at least forty percent of the men had 268 00:15:53,476 --> 00:15:58,956 Speaker 1: working spouses. That was not true, and certainly in my 269 00:15:59,036 --> 00:16:04,356 Speaker 1: last two big jobs. And if you have a working 270 00:16:04,436 --> 00:16:09,636 Speaker 1: spouse or increasingly if you have a working daughter. I 271 00:16:09,676 --> 00:16:13,836 Speaker 1: think it completely changes the mindset the number of times 272 00:16:13,996 --> 00:16:16,516 Speaker 1: in the past five to ten years where I see 273 00:16:16,556 --> 00:16:21,716 Speaker 1: a man proudly say I'm sponsoring her, I have her back. 274 00:16:22,396 --> 00:16:26,596 Speaker 1: I'm not going to put up with somebody cutting her 275 00:16:26,596 --> 00:16:29,436 Speaker 1: out of a deal or taking a key account away 276 00:16:29,476 --> 00:16:33,116 Speaker 1: from her that has gone to the wayside. I mean, 277 00:16:33,156 --> 00:16:37,156 Speaker 1: I could name for you four or five men at 278 00:16:37,196 --> 00:16:40,036 Speaker 1: Solomon who all thought that they had the fingerprints on 279 00:16:40,116 --> 00:16:43,476 Speaker 1: my success, and all did have their fingerprints on my success. 280 00:16:44,076 --> 00:16:50,076 Speaker 1: I couldn't name five people now who are as deliberate 281 00:16:50,596 --> 00:16:54,636 Speaker 1: and viewing it as their role in really helping women 282 00:16:55,356 --> 00:16:58,276 Speaker 1: continue to thrive and get those opportunities, get the most 283 00:16:58,316 --> 00:17:02,116 Speaker 1: important accounts, get put on the most important deals. You know, 284 00:17:02,196 --> 00:17:05,436 Speaker 1: It's interesting the point you made about how you can't 285 00:17:05,436 --> 00:17:07,516 Speaker 1: really look you look across the street and you can't 286 00:17:07,556 --> 00:17:10,876 Speaker 1: really see very many examples of the kind of men 287 00:17:11,076 --> 00:17:14,116 Speaker 1: who had their fingerprints on your career at Solomon Brothers. 288 00:17:14,396 --> 00:17:20,116 Speaker 1: That there isn't that kind of personal relationship between senior 289 00:17:20,156 --> 00:17:22,516 Speaker 1: men and younger women. And I'm wondering if part of 290 00:17:22,556 --> 00:17:24,996 Speaker 1: the problem is that we're in a culture where those 291 00:17:24,996 --> 00:17:28,876 Speaker 1: relationships are more dangerous. It's a huge issue. I think, 292 00:17:28,956 --> 00:17:35,196 Speaker 1: I listen, I think, whether it's real or implied. I mean, 293 00:17:35,236 --> 00:17:38,196 Speaker 1: I have had a number of people site the Pence 294 00:17:38,316 --> 00:17:40,716 Speaker 1: rule that amazes me. I didn't even know there was 295 00:17:40,756 --> 00:17:43,156 Speaker 1: a Pence rule, except he had that weird rule himself. 296 00:17:43,396 --> 00:17:48,036 Speaker 1: People refer to it openly and commonly as a very 297 00:17:48,036 --> 00:17:51,236 Speaker 1: clear indicator of feeling like either that they can't be 298 00:17:51,356 --> 00:17:55,316 Speaker 1: in certain settings with women on their team, or certainly 299 00:17:55,356 --> 00:17:59,276 Speaker 1: would never would be very uncomfortable, you would not have 300 00:17:59,436 --> 00:18:01,596 Speaker 1: dinner alone with a woman on your team, which again 301 00:18:01,636 --> 00:18:05,436 Speaker 1: I just I would not have thought twice about it myself. 302 00:18:05,676 --> 00:18:12,276 Speaker 1: And you think about where the great mentoring often happens, 303 00:18:12,476 --> 00:18:15,236 Speaker 1: or where the war stories happen, or were you really 304 00:18:16,076 --> 00:18:19,196 Speaker 1: feel like you develop that trust with somebody who you 305 00:18:19,236 --> 00:18:22,756 Speaker 1: can ask all of those questions. It typically does happen 306 00:18:22,836 --> 00:18:25,676 Speaker 1: either when you're flying somewhere together, or you're having dinner 307 00:18:25,716 --> 00:18:29,196 Speaker 1: with somebody, or in those other social settings. The conditions 308 00:18:29,196 --> 00:18:32,996 Speaker 1: where a woman, a young woman would build a professional 309 00:18:33,036 --> 00:18:36,316 Speaker 1: relationship with an older important man happen to be the 310 00:18:36,356 --> 00:18:40,676 Speaker 1: same conditions where the older man might suggest an inappropriate relationship. 311 00:18:40,996 --> 00:18:43,196 Speaker 1: And so you've got this problem where the older man 312 00:18:43,276 --> 00:18:44,836 Speaker 1: doesn't want to be in a position where he might 313 00:18:44,836 --> 00:18:49,036 Speaker 1: be accused of having suggested an inappropriate relationship. But part 314 00:18:49,036 --> 00:18:53,916 Speaker 1: of me wonders if what's going on is all of 315 00:18:53,916 --> 00:18:56,276 Speaker 1: this is being used as an excuse. That's sort of 316 00:18:56,316 --> 00:18:59,636 Speaker 1: like men now have an excuse not to make much 317 00:18:59,676 --> 00:19:02,116 Speaker 1: effort with women. I think you're spot on, by the way. 318 00:19:02,156 --> 00:19:06,556 Speaker 1: I would also argue that the more the diversity became 319 00:19:06,596 --> 00:19:13,596 Speaker 1: the purview of hr d EI executives and other people's jobs, 320 00:19:14,236 --> 00:19:18,156 Speaker 1: it became incredibly convenient for the men to opt out. 321 00:19:18,196 --> 00:19:20,436 Speaker 1: You know, they would be forced to sit through the 322 00:19:20,436 --> 00:19:23,436 Speaker 1: diversity training and they would they would do the other 323 00:19:24,116 --> 00:19:28,636 Speaker 1: check the box exercises, but it became really somebody else's job, 324 00:19:28,836 --> 00:19:31,476 Speaker 1: and not a high paying or high status job. No. Well, 325 00:19:31,876 --> 00:19:35,436 Speaker 1: I have to tell you one of my favorite Solomon bosses, 326 00:19:35,476 --> 00:19:39,156 Speaker 1: who's now the CEO of a company. We were talking 327 00:19:39,236 --> 00:19:42,836 Speaker 1: about how he resisted the pressure to hire a d 328 00:19:42,916 --> 00:19:45,796 Speaker 1: EI officer and he said, I'm the DI officer, And 329 00:19:45,836 --> 00:19:48,756 Speaker 1: I said, damn it, you're right. And the problem is 330 00:19:48,796 --> 00:19:52,396 Speaker 1: we need more CEOs to think they really are the 331 00:19:52,476 --> 00:19:55,996 Speaker 1: DI officers. The funny way of dealing with the marginalized 332 00:19:56,036 --> 00:19:59,556 Speaker 1: population is to marginalize the whole subject the role. Yeah right, 333 00:20:00,716 --> 00:20:02,956 Speaker 1: we're going to take a break here, other people's money 334 00:20:02,956 --> 00:20:12,276 Speaker 1: will be right back. I'm back with investment Banker and 335 00:20:12,556 --> 00:20:15,356 Speaker 1: Clark Wolf. I want to get dig into the motives 336 00:20:15,356 --> 00:20:17,236 Speaker 1: of and also I won't want you to explain the 337 00:20:17,276 --> 00:20:21,676 Speaker 1: business you've created. It's now been got the nickname Solomon's Sisters. 338 00:20:22,036 --> 00:20:25,316 Speaker 1: What is this business? Well, and I was very clear 339 00:20:25,396 --> 00:20:28,476 Speaker 1: to not name it Solomon's Sisters. It was really it 340 00:20:28,556 --> 00:20:31,396 Speaker 1: was really a running joke as I was reaching out 341 00:20:31,476 --> 00:20:35,276 Speaker 1: to friends and people who I trusted in thinking about 342 00:20:35,276 --> 00:20:37,756 Speaker 1: where I could still have an impact on the industry. 343 00:20:38,156 --> 00:20:41,276 Speaker 1: And I took the view that I had thirty two 344 00:20:41,356 --> 00:20:45,596 Speaker 1: years across the three biggest firms between Solomon up through 345 00:20:45,596 --> 00:20:49,396 Speaker 1: Citygroup for twenty years, two years at JP Morgan, and 346 00:20:49,436 --> 00:20:54,716 Speaker 1: then almost ten years a Bank of America, that despite 347 00:20:55,356 --> 00:20:57,276 Speaker 1: where I felt like I had put a lot of 348 00:20:57,356 --> 00:21:01,796 Speaker 1: effort in pulling through diverse candidates, I still looked around 349 00:21:01,836 --> 00:21:04,596 Speaker 1: and I said that I thought that I was leaving 350 00:21:04,636 --> 00:21:09,436 Speaker 1: the industry with a different composition and complexion than I 351 00:21:09,436 --> 00:21:13,076 Speaker 1: would have hoped. And I do believe in the power 352 00:21:13,116 --> 00:21:18,076 Speaker 1: of cognitive diversity that if you can combine a bunch 353 00:21:18,116 --> 00:21:22,676 Speaker 1: of different minds, different histories, different backgrounds. I actually do 354 00:21:22,756 --> 00:21:26,556 Speaker 1: believe it leads to better advice. So the premise was 355 00:21:27,436 --> 00:21:32,476 Speaker 1: diverse people had to be exceptional to survive on Wall Street. 356 00:21:32,596 --> 00:21:36,876 Speaker 1: They probably didn't get the best clients to cover or 357 00:21:36,956 --> 00:21:41,196 Speaker 1: the easiest tasks or opportunities. So if I can curate 358 00:21:41,916 --> 00:21:45,316 Speaker 1: a group of those exceptional people who just happened to 359 00:21:45,356 --> 00:21:48,876 Speaker 1: be diverse and not lead with diversity, can I change 360 00:21:48,916 --> 00:21:53,436 Speaker 1: the client experience? You know, the industry certainly would say 361 00:21:53,476 --> 00:21:56,236 Speaker 1: that the numbers are different than what I'm representing at 362 00:21:56,236 --> 00:21:59,436 Speaker 1: a macro, but a lot of that progress has not 363 00:21:59,756 --> 00:22:03,556 Speaker 1: really translated per se into investment banking. And there's actually 364 00:22:03,636 --> 00:22:07,116 Speaker 1: been research that shows good academic research that shows that 365 00:22:07,636 --> 00:22:11,476 Speaker 1: women running each eight accounts manage them more sensibly than 366 00:22:11,516 --> 00:22:14,316 Speaker 1: men running each trade accounts. And there's no research on 367 00:22:14,356 --> 00:22:16,556 Speaker 1: the other side saying actually, men are better at this. 368 00:22:17,076 --> 00:22:20,636 Speaker 1: So it is very peculiar that, given that we're supposed 369 00:22:20,676 --> 00:22:23,356 Speaker 1: to be an efficient, free market economy in Wall Street 370 00:22:23,396 --> 00:22:26,716 Speaker 1: is supposed to be like a meritocracy, that there hasn't 371 00:22:26,756 --> 00:22:28,956 Speaker 1: been a drive to actually replace the men with the 372 00:22:28,956 --> 00:22:31,676 Speaker 1: women because the women might actually naturally be better suited 373 00:22:31,716 --> 00:22:33,836 Speaker 1: to it. I like to bring it back to the 374 00:22:33,876 --> 00:22:36,716 Speaker 1: ski industry because I love skiing, and so when people 375 00:22:36,756 --> 00:22:39,196 Speaker 1: show up at a ski resort and they need to 376 00:22:39,236 --> 00:22:42,316 Speaker 1: be put into their ski class, women will say on 377 00:22:42,316 --> 00:22:45,356 Speaker 1: a scale of one to ten, there are four. The 378 00:22:45,396 --> 00:22:48,636 Speaker 1: man will say that he's an eight, and they're both sixes. 379 00:22:50,076 --> 00:22:54,356 Speaker 1: And so I think, and that story has also played 380 00:22:54,396 --> 00:22:58,156 Speaker 1: out in job qualifications, and I think an interesting modern 381 00:22:58,196 --> 00:23:01,196 Speaker 1: word for it. And I still experience this. I have 382 00:23:01,356 --> 00:23:05,156 Speaker 1: probably four hours a day of impostor syndrome. The data 383 00:23:05,196 --> 00:23:07,956 Speaker 1: is super clear, though, I mean it's you know, you 384 00:23:08,036 --> 00:23:13,436 Speaker 1: can find the data on qualifications for jobs between men 385 00:23:13,476 --> 00:23:16,556 Speaker 1: and women, so it's I do think that if you 386 00:23:16,636 --> 00:23:22,196 Speaker 1: take that data, it makes me hopeful that as I 387 00:23:22,276 --> 00:23:26,396 Speaker 1: build a firm and you have women and minorities with 388 00:23:26,516 --> 00:23:30,476 Speaker 1: that mindset of always having been the underdog and always 389 00:23:31,076 --> 00:23:34,956 Speaker 1: airing on the side of underrepresenting what their capabilities are, 390 00:23:35,356 --> 00:23:37,916 Speaker 1: I hope that that's exactly the kind of advice a 391 00:23:38,076 --> 00:23:40,996 Speaker 1: CEO would want. Do you think that part of the 392 00:23:41,036 --> 00:23:44,556 Speaker 1: problem is that people who are delegating the risk taking decisions, 393 00:23:44,596 --> 00:23:47,236 Speaker 1: the ultimate holders of capital who are giving their money 394 00:23:47,276 --> 00:23:49,636 Speaker 1: to a hedge fund or a private equity fund, or 395 00:23:49,676 --> 00:23:52,396 Speaker 1: buying shares in Goldman sacks so they can trade whatever 396 00:23:52,436 --> 00:23:58,316 Speaker 1: it is that those people are deceived by confidence that 397 00:23:58,476 --> 00:24:01,156 Speaker 1: in fact, the best way to get ahold of other 398 00:24:01,156 --> 00:24:03,356 Speaker 1: people's money, to whip it and drive it and swing 399 00:24:03,396 --> 00:24:05,356 Speaker 1: it around in the markets, is to pretend, let you 400 00:24:05,396 --> 00:24:07,516 Speaker 1: know a lot more than you do, and that the 401 00:24:07,556 --> 00:24:11,196 Speaker 1: problem is ultimately that the holders of capital are bad 402 00:24:11,316 --> 00:24:15,316 Speaker 1: judges of who's good at managing the capital. I don't 403 00:24:15,356 --> 00:24:19,756 Speaker 1: know how you're ever going to undo the natural gravitational 404 00:24:19,836 --> 00:24:23,036 Speaker 1: force that tends to reward people who may be confident 405 00:24:23,116 --> 00:24:25,996 Speaker 1: at the expense of being capable, right. I mean one 406 00:24:25,996 --> 00:24:28,156 Speaker 1: way of viewing it, and one way everybody will view 407 00:24:28,156 --> 00:24:31,236 Speaker 1: it is the role of women in finance is as 408 00:24:31,276 --> 00:24:34,316 Speaker 1: a massive social injustice. But there's another way of viewing 409 00:24:34,356 --> 00:24:37,556 Speaker 1: it is like a massive market inefficiency, Like the money 410 00:24:37,676 --> 00:24:42,556 Speaker 1: is being invested stupider because women are not equally involved 411 00:24:42,596 --> 00:24:45,356 Speaker 1: in the investment decisions. And you put it like that, 412 00:24:45,436 --> 00:24:50,036 Speaker 1: and the reply might come from the opposition that there's 413 00:24:50,076 --> 00:24:52,436 Speaker 1: no way the markets would allow that kind of any 414 00:24:52,476 --> 00:24:56,636 Speaker 1: market would allow that kind of inefficiency. But that's not true. 415 00:24:56,716 --> 00:25:01,676 Speaker 1: Look at the CEO of Carlisle has recently said that 416 00:25:01,716 --> 00:25:05,636 Speaker 1: the cost of capital that they allocate to their portfolio 417 00:25:05,716 --> 00:25:09,716 Speaker 1: companies that have diverse teams in a diverse board is different. 418 00:25:09,836 --> 00:25:15,516 Speaker 1: Their financial results were twelve percent better with their diverse 419 00:25:15,596 --> 00:25:20,516 Speaker 1: portfolio teams. Diversity pays, Diversity pays, and eliminating mail over 420 00:25:20,596 --> 00:25:24,276 Speaker 1: confidence yes, pays two. So given all of that, you 421 00:25:24,356 --> 00:25:28,876 Speaker 1: candidly wonder why we haven't seen more progress since even 422 00:25:28,916 --> 00:25:32,036 Speaker 1: if people just put their capitalist hat on, they'd be 423 00:25:32,116 --> 00:25:36,356 Speaker 1: making more money. But at the end of the day, 424 00:25:35,196 --> 00:25:40,676 Speaker 1: until a head trader is told he will make five 425 00:25:40,756 --> 00:25:47,156 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars more if he has a woman, a 426 00:25:47,196 --> 00:25:53,516 Speaker 1: black man, a Latin x an LBGTQ leader in his ranks, 427 00:25:54,116 --> 00:25:58,316 Speaker 1: and he will lose five hundred thousand if that person 428 00:25:59,276 --> 00:26:03,596 Speaker 1: leaves because they weren't ultimately feeling supported. You just don't 429 00:26:03,676 --> 00:26:06,956 Speaker 1: have the incentives that have really met people at the 430 00:26:07,036 --> 00:26:11,916 Speaker 1: place where they really understand the most, which is ultimately 431 00:26:12,036 --> 00:26:16,596 Speaker 1: around around capitalism. They all know and feel bad about 432 00:26:16,636 --> 00:26:19,716 Speaker 1: the lack of representation and sales and trading, but feeling 433 00:26:19,716 --> 00:26:24,196 Speaker 1: bad just hasn't translated into the day and day out behavior. 434 00:26:24,316 --> 00:26:26,876 Speaker 1: That's just going to be key to really making it 435 00:26:26,996 --> 00:26:31,676 Speaker 1: attractive and interesting and compelling for a woman to want 436 00:26:31,676 --> 00:26:35,196 Speaker 1: to be in that seat. I want to thank Ann 437 00:26:35,236 --> 00:26:37,196 Speaker 1: Clark Woolf for trying to figure out what's going on 438 00:26:37,276 --> 00:26:39,596 Speaker 1: with women on Wall Street and trying to tell us 439 00:26:39,636 --> 00:26:42,476 Speaker 1: how it really is. And go check out our firm, 440 00:26:42,516 --> 00:26:46,116 Speaker 1: Solomon Sisters. I mean Independence Point if you're so inclined 441 00:26:47,396 --> 00:26:50,796 Speaker 1: other people's money is a production of Pushkin Industries. If 442 00:26:50,836 --> 00:26:53,756 Speaker 1: you like the show, please remember to share, rate and review. 443 00:26:53,916 --> 00:26:56,396 Speaker 1: You don't like it, don't say anything. You can buy 444 00:26:56,436 --> 00:26:59,956 Speaker 1: our new Liars Poker audiobook, unabridged and read by me 445 00:27:00,316 --> 00:27:04,756 Speaker 1: the author at Pushkin dot Fm, Slash Liars Poker, and 446 00:27:04,916 --> 00:27:09,836 Speaker 1: also at Audible Define more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the 447 00:27:09,916 --> 00:27:14,596 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 448 00:27:16,436 --> 00:27:19,236 Speaker 1: Coming up in the next episode. What it's like to 449 00:27:19,276 --> 00:27:23,116 Speaker 1: reencounter your earlier work. I mean, it's funny listening back. 450 00:27:23,116 --> 00:27:25,316 Speaker 1: It really sheds a lot of light on conversations that 451 00:27:25,356 --> 00:27:27,636 Speaker 1: I had with my parents. They were hearing the work 452 00:27:27,676 --> 00:27:29,996 Speaker 1: I was doing and telling me that I should go 453 00:27:30,036 --> 00:27:33,996 Speaker 1: to medical school, and I remember at the time feeling like, well, 454 00:27:34,036 --> 00:27:36,676 Speaker 1: you are very not supportive of my dream, you know, 455 00:27:36,716 --> 00:27:38,916 Speaker 1: And but now, like you're listening back, I realized, like, 456 00:27:38,956 --> 00:27:41,476 Speaker 1: oh wait, no, they just heard the evidence in front 457 00:27:41,476 --> 00:27:44,076 Speaker 1: of their ears of like, oh this isn't good, Like 458 00:27:44,196 --> 00:27:48,316 Speaker 1: this isn't good. What you're making ire a glass and 459 00:27:48,396 --> 00:27:50,716 Speaker 1: I try to make sense of our earlier selves and 460 00:27:50,756 --> 00:27:57,276 Speaker 1: the work we created. I guess I haven't wondering did 461 00:27:57,276 --> 00:28:00,036 Speaker 1: you ever play Liars Poker or see people play? That's 462 00:28:00,076 --> 00:28:03,436 Speaker 1: a good question. I did not play Liars Poker. I 463 00:28:03,476 --> 00:28:07,076 Speaker 1: am about the worst gambler on the face of the planet, 464 00:28:07,156 --> 00:28:09,396 Speaker 1: and I certainly would not have had John Mary, there's 465 00:28:09,436 --> 00:28:11,716 Speaker 1: poker face to pull off a game of Liar's Poker. 466 00:28:11,876 --> 00:28:14,596 Speaker 1: You just did a very female thing, right, you just 467 00:28:14,596 --> 00:28:17,516 Speaker 1: said You just said that. The guys don't say I'm 468 00:28:17,556 --> 00:28:19,196 Speaker 1: the worst gambler on the on the face of the 469 00:28:19,356 --> 00:28:24,356 Speaker 1: Wall Street guys don't anyways. Also, why women wouldn't play 470 00:28:24,356 --> 00:28:26,716 Speaker 1: Liar's Poker and lose a lot of money either, Right, 471 00:28:27,076 --> 00:28:28,356 Speaker 1: that's right, that's right.