1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 2: Mexico is suing US gun makers for ten billion dollars, 3 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 2: alleging they've fueled cartel gun violence, but it appears that 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:21,639 Speaker 2: Mexico's lawsuit will end at the Supreme Court, where both 5 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 2: liberal and conservative justices appeared skeptical that the claims could 6 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 2: clear hurdles in US law that largely shield gun makers 7 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 2: from lawsuits when their products are used in crime. Liberal 8 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 2: Justice Elena Kagan question whether Mexico's allegations were specific enough 9 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 2: to hold the gun makers like Smith and Wesson libel 10 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 2: for specific dealers that sell firearms in bulk to straw 11 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 2: purchasers who traffic the guns across the border. 12 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 3: What you don't have is particular dealers, right, I mean, 13 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 3: it's a pretty There are lots of dealers, and you're 14 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 3: just saying they know that some of them do and 15 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 3: some of them, I mean, who are they aiding and 16 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 3: a betting in this complaint? 17 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 2: And Conservative Justice Brett Kavanaugh said he had real concerns 18 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 2: that allowing the case to go forward would have reprecautions 19 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 2: for US companies when their products are misused. 20 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: You know, we manufacture knives, but there are a lot 21 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: of stabbings in certain neighborhoods. We should make sure our 22 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: products aren't sold there. Or a sporting goods company and 23 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: baseball bats are used to you know, storm CVS's or 24 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: what have you, so we shouldn't sell in this city. 25 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: Or prescription drugs are misused in a certain area, so 26 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: we need to be alert and make sure. Is that 27 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: where your theory of aiding and abetting leads that you 28 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: have to be kind of chasing tracing everything down the chain. 29 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 2: My guest is Andrew Willinger, Executive director of the Duke 30 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 2: Center for Firearms Law. Andrew tell us about Mexico's claims 31 00:01:59,040 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: in this lawsuit. 32 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 4: So Mexico is alledging in this case that a group 33 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:12,559 Speaker 4: of major US gun manufacturers aided and embedded the illegal 34 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:18,079 Speaker 4: trafficking of guns into Mexico through straw purchasers that were 35 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 4: conducted by people within the United States who then trafficked 36 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 4: the guns across the border. That those guns were then 37 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:29,679 Speaker 4: used by cartels in Mexico to commit various acts of violence, 38 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 4: and Mexico is seeking to recover for the costs of 39 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 4: that violence that occurred in the country and the issue 40 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:43,399 Speaker 4: before the court is whether these claims are barred by 41 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 4: a federal statute that immunizes gun makers from certain legal 42 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 4: claims based on the third party misuse of their products, 43 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 4: or whether Mexico's claims fit within one of the listed 44 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 4: exceptions in that federal WLAD. 45 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: That federal law is called the Protection of Lawful Commerce 46 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 2: in Arms Act from two thousand and five. So the 47 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 2: exception is that it allows suits against gun makers that 48 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 2: knowingly violate a state or federal gun law. 49 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 4: Yes, that's right. So this is one of a series 50 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 4: of exception to the immunity shield in PLACA. It's often 51 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 4: called the predicate exception, and it allows, as you said, 52 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 4: actions where a manufacturer knowingly violates a state or federal 53 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 4: statute that's applicable to the sailor marketing of a gun, 54 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 4: and then that violation has to be the proximate cause 55 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 4: of the harm for which the plaintiffs is seeking to recover. 56 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 3: This suit is just. 57 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,839 Speaker 2: At the very initial stages. There hasn't been any discovery 58 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 2: or anything yet, has there No. 59 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 4: There has not, And this is something that Mexico's council 60 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 4: you mentioned repeatedly during the oral argument. This is a 61 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 4: a case that has come all the way up to 62 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 4: the Supreme Court on what's called a motion to dismiss, 63 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 4: which means that the only thing that Mexico has done 64 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 4: so far is file its complaint, which contains allegations about 65 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 4: the conduct that Mexico says these gun makers have engaged 66 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 4: in and how that conduct allegedly has caused these damages. 67 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 4: But there has been no discovery, and since New Mexico 68 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 4: hasn't been given the chance yet to come forward with 69 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 4: evidence to support those allegations, the question is whether they 70 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 4: can do so whether the case can progress to the 71 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 4: next stage. 72 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 2: So regarding that legal principle called proximate cause, No Francisco, 73 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 2: the former Solicitor General who argued the case for the 74 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 2: gun manufacturers, said that if Mexico is right, then every 75 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 2: law enforcement organization in America has missed the largest criminal 76 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 2: conspiracy in history operating right under their nose. And Budweiser 77 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 2: is liable for every accident caused by underage drinkers since 78 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 2: it knows that teenagers will buy beer, drive drunk, and crash. 79 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 2: That was also a concern of Justice Brett Kavanaugh, who 80 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 2: started talking about baseball bat manufacturers being held liable if 81 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 2: their bad cause is injury. 82 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right. There are a lot of extended hypothetical 83 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 4: discussions about baseball bats, about beer makers, and sort of 84 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 4: what level of knowledge or specific marketing to underage individuals 85 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 4: of beer, for example, might be sufficient to give rise 86 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 4: to liability. And you know, I think this is a 87 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 4: sort of broader concern about what the impact would be 88 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 4: in various industries of extending liability in this way. You know, 89 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 4: it really underlies all aspects of the case at this stage, 90 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 4: both the proximate cause question and the question of whether 91 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 4: aiding and abedding liability. So the theory that here the 92 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 4: gun makers have aided and abetted these retailers who are 93 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 4: actually selling to straw purchaser knowing that they're going to 94 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 4: bring the guns into Mexico, Whether allowing these claims to 95 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 4: proceed could have damaging consequences beyond the gun industry, and. 96 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 2: What was the answer to that from the attorney from Mexico. 97 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 4: I heard Mexico's attorneys to be making a couple of 98 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 4: points in response. I did hear some suggestions at various 99 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 4: points that you know, things like drugs, pharmaceuticals, guns, you know, 100 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 4: sort of products that might be inherently dangerous in some 101 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 4: way that maybe it makes sense to have a different approach, 102 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 4: to have some expanded form of liability when that's the 103 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 4: type of product that you're dealing with. I also heard 104 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 4: a lot of emphasis on the complaint and the specific 105 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 4: allegations and the complaint about knowledge on the part of 106 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 4: the gun manufacturers that there are specific what Mexico is 107 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 4: called red flag dealers that are engaging in these straw sales. 108 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 4: So I think Mexico also also emphasizing that in this 109 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 4: specific instance, maybe there's sort of a unique level of 110 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 4: knowledge and complicity in the country's view that distinguishes this 111 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 4: case from the other types of hypotheticals that we heard 112 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 4: discussed at oral arguments. 113 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 2: Liberal Justice Elena Kagan was one of the ones talking 114 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 2: about what you don't have is particular dealers, right, who 115 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 2: are they aiding in a bedding in this complaint. I mean, 116 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 2: it seemed to be liberals and conservatives across the board, 117 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 2: we're having a problem with Mexico's lawsuit. 118 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 4: I think that's right. That was my impression from the 119 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 4: arguments as well, And actually I thought was notable as 120 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 4: well that Justice Tanji Brown Jackson had this line of 121 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 4: questioning both for NOL Francisco and also for Mexico's Council, 122 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 4: that she seemed to be very concerned about this threshold 123 00:07:54,320 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 4: issue of whether PLACA even contemplates sort of broader common 124 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 4: law aiding at a betting as a potential predicate exception 125 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 4: claim that could be brought notwithstanding the immunity shield. So 126 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 4: she seemed to be voicing some concern that maybe, you know, 127 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 4: Congress when it enacted PLACO was actually thinking about something 128 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 4: far narrower in terms of the lawsuits that it would allow, 129 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 4: and she was worried it seemed about courts, about judges 130 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 4: putting in their own more expansive view of what the 131 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 4: exception could permit. So I thought that was interesting, And 132 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 4: you know, it's always difficult to speculate about how a 133 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 4: justice will vote based solely on their questions and oral argument. 134 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 4: But Justice Jackson seemed very concerned about that point, and 135 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 4: it would suggest to me that maybe she's more on 136 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 4: the fence, or maybe even on the side of the 137 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 4: gunmakers in this case. 138 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 2: So then what issue do you think the decision will 139 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 2: turn on? 140 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 4: So I had to predict I think, you know, based 141 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 4: on post on how the argument went today. It's most 142 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 4: likely that the Court will decide this on the aiding 143 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 4: and a betting point that the Court don't really want 144 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 4: to get into the proximate cause case law, which you know, 145 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 4: at various times, and the arguments that we heard it 146 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 4: called kind of a mess and very muddled, and you 147 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 4: know that it's not clear exactly you know, what the 148 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 4: court requires in terms of approximate cause and it's past 149 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 4: case law. So there seemed to be more of an 150 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 4: appetite among several of the justices to decide, you know, 151 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 4: on the basis of aiding in a betting, which would mean, 152 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 4: as I suspect, the court sides with the gun makers 153 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 4: and then throws this case out, it would say that 154 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 4: Mexico's allegations did not plausibly establish and aiding in a 155 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 4: betting violation of the straw sales by these retailers further 156 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:40,319 Speaker 4: down the line. 157 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 2: So then could Mexico come back if with new information, 158 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 2: you know, specific dealers or straw purchasers or whatever, that 159 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 2: would allow them to bring the case again. 160 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 4: I think that's possible. I could I could imagine there 161 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 4: being a more sort of a more limited case where 162 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 4: they're and again, you know, reading a little bit between 163 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,959 Speaker 4: the lines arguments today, some justices seem to maybe be 164 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 4: pushing in this direction that if this were a complaint 165 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 4: that was based on specific transactions, where Mexico is saying, 166 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 4: you know, these specific gunmakers sold these guns to these 167 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 4: distributors and then dealers, and they knew that they were 168 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 4: going to go into the hands of straw purchasers and 169 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 4: go into Mexico on a transaction by transaction basis listing 170 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,319 Speaker 4: that out, that maybe that would be a different outcome. 171 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 4: That would obviously be a much different type of case. 172 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 4: The damages would presumably be much lower because we would 173 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 4: be talking about a fewer guns. But I think I 174 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 4: think that's theoretically possible. 175 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 2: Coming up next on the Bloomberg Lawn Show, I'll continue 176 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 2: this conversation with Andrew Willinger of Duke University. This argument 177 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 2: comes at a front time for US Mexico relations. There 178 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 2: seemed to be an oblique reference to that in a 179 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 2: question from Justice Samuel Alito. 180 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 5: There are Americans who think that Mexican government officials are 181 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 5: contributing to a lot of illegal conduct. 182 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 2: Here more on the oral arguments coming up next. I'm 183 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 2: June Grosse when you're listening to Bloomberg. The Supreme Court 184 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 2: seems likely to block a ten billion dollar lawsuit Mexico 185 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 2: filed against top firearm manufacturers in the US, alleging the 186 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 2: companies have fueled cartel gun violence. Mexico has strict gun 187 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 2: laws and has just one store where people can legally 188 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 2: buy firearms, but thousands of guns are smuggled into the 189 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 2: country by powerful drug cartels every year. The Mexican government 190 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 2: says seventy percent of those weapons come from the United States, 191 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 2: and the lawsuit claims that company's new weapons were being 192 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 2: sold to traffickers who smuggled them into Mexico and decided 193 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 2: to cash in on that market. The companies reject Mexico's claims, 194 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 2: arguing it comes nowhere close to showing their responsible for 195 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 2: a relatively few people using their products to commit violence. 196 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 2: I've been talking to Andrew Willinger, executive director of the 197 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,199 Speaker 2: Duke Center for Firearms Law. 198 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 6: Andrew. 199 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 2: This comes at a fraught time for relations between the 200 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 2: US and Mexico, with President Donald Trump imposing twenty five 201 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 2: percent tariffs on Mexican imports and the Mexican president promising 202 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 2: to impose retaliatory tariffs Trump, I said, the tariffs are 203 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 2: aimed at forcing Mexico to step up its fight against 204 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 2: illicit drugs and illegal migrants crossing the southern border. I 205 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 2: didn't think that that would enter into the arguments today, 206 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 2: But then Justice Samuel Alito asked the lawyer representing Mexico 207 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 2: this question. 208 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 5: There are Americans who think that Mexican government officials are 209 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 5: contributing to a lot of illegal conduct here. So suppose 210 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 5: that one of the fifty States sued the government of 211 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 5: Mexico for aiding and a betting illegal conduct within the 212 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 5: state's orders that causes the state to incur law enforcement costs, 213 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:07,959 Speaker 5: public welfare costs, other costs. Would your client be willing 214 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 5: to litigate that case in the courts of the United States. 215 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 2: I thought that was a very aggressive question that clearly 216 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 2: revealed his position. 217 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, I was very surprised to hear this question be 218 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 4: asked that oral argument. I will say, you know, Justice 219 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 4: Leedo did preface it by sort of you know, put it, 220 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 4: you know, some kind of disclaimer of you know, well, 221 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 4: this doesn't actually relate to any of the legal issues 222 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 4: in the case, which of course it doesn't, and you know, 223 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 4: It's certainly true that this is this is going on 224 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 4: in the background that you know, the case itself has 225 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 4: become kind of a bargaining ship in some sense in 226 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 4: these negotiations or discussions between the US and Mexico. But 227 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 4: it wasn't clear to me exactly what this question was 228 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 4: was meant to do, other than just to kind of 229 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 4: put this idea on the record, because clearly, you know, 230 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,559 Speaker 4: Mexico's attorney in this case was not going to you know, 231 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 4: go down the path of a saying that the Mexican 232 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 4: government would waive a sovereign immunity and in some kind 233 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,839 Speaker 4: of future hypothetical litigation. So this surprised me as well. 234 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 4: I didn't expect it to come up so viscerally at 235 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 4: oral arguments. 236 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, I felt for the attorney at that point, because 237 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 2: how could she possibly answer that question. Thinking back on 238 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 2: the arguments, I'm trying to think if there was one 239 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 2: justice who clearly came out in favor of Mexico's position, 240 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 2: perhaps Justice Sonia Soto Mayor in part. 241 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 4: I think that's right. I think just the Sodoma r 242 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 4: was sort of, you know, maybe helping pulling out the 243 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 4: best or most direct theory of the case for Mexico 244 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 4: in terms of what was being alleged. And I think 245 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 4: I think she was also, if I heard her question incorrectly, 246 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 4: maybe putting the relevant point in the causal chain sort 247 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 4: of further down the line, which which would help make 248 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 4: proximate cause potentially in an easier sell. Right, So she 249 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 4: was saying, well, you really need to look at the 250 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 4: point at which the guns are sold and not necessarily 251 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 4: the upstream actions of the gun manufacturers. And you know 252 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 4: that that's sort of the way vicarious viability and aiding 253 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 4: and embedding works, and so that's where you're starting. You 254 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 4: don't have this you know, six or eight step causal 255 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 4: chain that you know, the gun makers have been referring 256 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 4: to in their briefing at arguments. 257 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 2: You know, there were questions about whether the manufacturers are designing, 258 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 2: there and marketing their guns in order to drive up 259 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 2: demand among the cartels. For example, they have this special 260 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 2: addition cold handgun called the super el Hefe pistol, and 261 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 2: engraved there is the Mexican revolutionary Emiliano Zapata's pronouncement it's 262 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 2: better to die standing than to live on your knees. 263 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 2: I mean, did that play any part and it's the 264 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 2: fact that they may be actually designing some weapons to 265 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 2: appeal to Mexicans. 266 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 4: This did come up a little bit, you know, towards 267 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 4: the end of the oral argument, and it seemed to me, like, 268 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 4: you know, the response to that among the justices was 269 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 4: a little bit skeptical, I think due to the fact that, 270 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 4: as you know, one of the justices noted, you know, 271 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 4: it's not clear of those specific types of firearms. There 272 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 4: didn't seem to be evidence of what percentage were actually 273 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 4: the ones that were being diverted into Mexico, So there 274 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 4: seemed to be maybe a missing link there. And then 275 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 4: of course the fact that like maybe these are these 276 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 4: are things that some consumers in the United States want 277 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 4: to I think the justices seemed skeptical that this rose 278 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 4: to the level of the kind of deliberate targeting that 279 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 4: was discussed in some of the other context where you 280 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 4: might have, you know, a beer manufacturer that's you know, 281 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 4: designing something specifically for people who are underage, right, So 282 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 4: it seemed skeptical in my view that this was at 283 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 4: the same level. 284 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 2: So do you think they'll just write an opinion throwing 285 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 2: out the case, or that the opinion might have implications 286 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 2: for other cases. 287 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 4: This case, of course, is a little bit unique, deals 288 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 4: with about you know, foreign country. I think one of 289 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 4: the real questions will be what impact, if any, the 290 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 4: decision has on domestic tort lawsuits against the gun industry, 291 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 4: and specifically lawsuits that are brought pursuant to a recently 292 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 4: enacted set of laws in a handful of states that 293 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 4: are designed specifically within the predicate exception and provide you know, 294 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 4: a statutory claim. These are sometimes called firearm industry nuisance 295 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 4: statutes that have been passed in states like New York 296 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 4: and California, for example. And you know, I think it's 297 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 4: going to depend on what basis the court decides this 298 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 4: case what the impact on that domestic sphere will be, 299 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 4: because one of the reasons that states are passing these 300 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 4: laws is sort of to have less doubt out there 301 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 4: about whether a predicate violation is actually something being alleged. 302 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,199 Speaker 4: So instead of having to rely on the type of 303 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 4: aiding in a betting theory that Mexico did here, if 304 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 4: you are operating under one of these state laws, you 305 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 4: have an actual statute that you can point to and say, 306 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 4: I'm alleging that this gun manufacturer violated this specific state law. 307 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 4: But on the other hand, there's still approximate cause requirements. 308 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 4: So the extent the Court does say something about proximate cause, 309 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 4: that could have an impact on these domestic lawsuits and 310 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 4: anything that is in that opinion that talks more broadly 311 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 4: about PLACA, about the intent of PLACO, what types of 312 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 4: lawsuits Placa was meant to sort of cut off. Any 313 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 4: of those broader atmospheric statements could be pretty impactful even 314 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 4: in these domestic cases. 315 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 2: Knowing the Supreme Court's recent Second Amendment jurisprudence, do you 316 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 2: think that this case really came to the court with 317 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 2: sort of an uphill battle. 318 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 4: I think that's right. You know, I have said that, 319 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,959 Speaker 4: you know, I think that the Second Amendment cases are 320 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 4: sort of a useful guide going in to think about 321 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 4: how the justices might view this case. That said, you know, 322 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 4: that issue really didn't come up an oral argument, even 323 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 4: though I think nol Francisco said something about, you know, 324 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 4: the second the Second Amendment and the possibility that this 325 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 4: was going to you know, these types of cases might 326 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,400 Speaker 4: have a significant negative impact on the gun industry, which 327 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 4: could impact Second Amendment rights, there didn't seem to be 328 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 4: a whole lot of engagement on those points from the justices. 329 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 4: So while I think maybe that was a useful touristic 330 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 4: going in, I actually think we're likely to see a 331 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 4: decision that doesn't break down necessarily along those lines, along 332 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 4: that same partisan lines that we've seen in some of 333 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 4: the major gun cases, like the Bruin case for example, 334 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 4: that we could see something more unanimous. 335 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for coming on the show, Andrew. That's 336 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 2: Andrew Willinger, executive director of the Duke Center for Firearms Law. 337 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 2: Coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show. Delaware's Chancery 338 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 2: Court often gets attention because of billionaire litigants like Elon 339 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 2: Musk and Fortune five hundred companies, but a case involving 340 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 2: a construction worker whose horse was dumped in a Delaware 341 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 2: landfill after a hit and run accident highlights the chancery 342 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 2: Court's responsibility to deliver equity. I'm June Grosso. When you're listening, 343 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 2: Since I was born. 344 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,719 Speaker 6: I dreamed of being a Budweiser Clydesdale. 345 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 4: The only problem is I was born a donkey, so 346 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 4: all my life I practiced the Clydesdale walk. 347 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 2: Who hasn't felt a tog at their heartstrings, as the 348 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 2: Budweiser Clydesdale's have bonded with donkeys, puppies and yes bulls, 349 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 2: fought against the odds, played football in the snow, and 350 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 2: even fallen in love with a dancing circus horse in 351 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,360 Speaker 2: nearly fifty uplifting Super Bowl ads. It's no wonder, then, 352 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 2: that Breton Marquisi wanted a Clydesdale ever since seeing Budweiser's 353 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 2: famous team when he was a boy, and his dream 354 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 2: came true in twenty fifteen when a friend showed him 355 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 2: a photo of a foal named Michigan Breeze and said 356 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 2: he could buy her for eleven hundred dollars. Marquisi says 357 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 2: it melted my heart. Breeze became the cornerstone of his 358 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 2: life until a hit and run accident last December took 359 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 2: her from him. What followed brought Marquisi to the Delaware 360 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 2: Chancery Court and Chief Judge Kathleen McCormick, the same judge 361 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 2: in court that Elon Musk and his online followers have 362 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 2: been attacking for nearly a year. Joining me is Jennifer 363 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 2: Kay Bloomberg lost Senior correspondent Jennifer Tell us about the 364 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 2: history and relationship between Marquisi and Breeze. 365 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 7: So Brendon Marquisi is a construction worker. Lives in a 366 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 7: small Delaware town outside of Wilmington and its famous courthouses. 367 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,959 Speaker 7: Is a pretty rural area for the most part, and 368 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:15,880 Speaker 7: he has had this Clydesdale for about a decade. He 369 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 7: bought her when she was just a few months old. 370 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 7: She came with the name Michigan's Breeze, and you know, 371 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 7: for him, it was kind of love at first site. 372 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 7: That first sight being a picture on a friend's cell 373 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 7: phone front of a friend was selling the horse, and 374 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 7: he had always wanted a Clydesdale ever since being the 375 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 7: Budweiser team when he was a kid. Brenton Marquisi has 376 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 7: not had, I think the easiest life. He's definitely had 377 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 7: some losses and some difficult relationships, but the one steady 378 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 7: presence in his life was always this horse, Breeze, and 379 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 7: she turned out to be that way for a lot 380 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 7: of his friends as well. Some of them are military 381 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 7: veterans coming home with trauma that they need to process 382 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 7: and instead of turning maybe to different substances, you know, 383 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 7: Marquisi knew that he could always turn to this horse 384 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 7: who always needed him to show up every day, and 385 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 7: so she became kind of an emotional support animal for 386 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 7: his social network that she was always there, always happy 387 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,719 Speaker 7: to see them, always needing them to show up, and 388 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 7: was just that kind of one steady presence. So he 389 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 7: and breathe they had a routine of just going out 390 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 7: for a short ride after work every day. And in December, 391 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,719 Speaker 7: it was a day like any other. They were riding 392 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 7: back to the barn where she lived in a kind 393 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 7: of a double stall because she's such a large horse, 394 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 7: and unfortunately, that's when a driver came up behind them, 395 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 7: going really fast and clips her in the hind legs 396 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 7: just as she was moving, you know, off the road 397 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 7: into the shoulder of the and the driver briefly stopped. 398 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 7: Ben just kept right on going, and unfortunately, no one 399 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 7: gotta look at the car or the license plate. It 400 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 7: didn't show up on any doorbell cameras in the area, 401 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 7: and mister Marquisi was injured. Amazingly, he walked away without 402 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 7: any broken bones, but he was injured at the scene 403 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 7: and the paramedics wanted him to go to the hospital. 404 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 7: It was near the barn where the horse lived, so 405 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 7: the barn's owner came out and was waiting for a 406 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 7: veterinarian to come and take a look at the horse, 407 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 7: and mister Marquisi knew it was pretty bad, you know, 408 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 7: with the horse breaks its leg, that's usually a fatal injury. 409 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 7: He knew it was bad, but he also knew that 410 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 7: everybody who was at the scene knew how much he 411 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 7: loved this horse, and that he wouldn't want her just 412 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 7: taken away and forgotten that he would want to honor her, 413 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 7: that he'd always said that he would plan to cremate 414 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 7: any of his pets or animals, and so when he 415 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 7: left in an ambulance, he kind of left her in 416 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,360 Speaker 7: the care of the small number of people at the scene. 417 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 7: And unfortunately, somewhere between the accident and the hospital, he 418 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,919 Speaker 7: lost track of his phone. He wasn't able to get, 419 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 7: you know, clear word on what had happened to the 420 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 7: horse or what was happening at the scene. So it 421 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 7: was pretty much twenty four hours later before he really 422 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 7: got the messages that unfortunately the horse had to be 423 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 7: put down there at the scene, and then someone at 424 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 7: the scene gave the okay for the horse to be 425 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 7: transported to a landfill and that was the one thing 426 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 7: that he really didn't want to do with his animal. 427 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 6: An attorney volunteered to help him with this. 428 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 7: So you know, like I said, it's a small rural 429 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 7: part of Delaware, which is a pretty small state overall. 430 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 7: You know, it's one of those places where everyone kind 431 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 7: of knows everyone. And so as his story was spreading 432 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 7: in kind of the small equestrian community there outside Dover, 433 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 7: this attorney happened to see on social media a post 434 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 7: about his story and she realized that she was taking 435 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 7: writing lessons at the same barn, and so she called 436 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 7: him up and said, hey, what can I do to 437 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 7: help you? And I'll help you for free. I'll help 438 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 7: you pro bono, just because he needed someone to help 439 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 7: him walk through his chancery court process of trying to 440 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 7: get in order to go into the landfill to retrieve 441 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 7: Breeze's remains. 442 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 6: We've been hearing about chancery court and the particular judge 443 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 6: involved for quite some time because of the Elon Musk 444 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 6: pay situations. 445 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 7: Chancery Court has become a famous I think as the 446 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 7: place that Elon Musk loves to hate, right because this 447 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 7: is a court that made him by Twitter in the 448 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 7: first place is the court where the same judge has said, no, 449 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 7: your pay package at Tesla for fifty six billion dollars 450 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 7: that wasn't passed correctly. There were too many conflicts of 451 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 7: interest on the board. You can't have that. The board 452 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 7: is going to have to go back to the drawing board. 453 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 7: He's been using those rulings as a means of attacking 454 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 7: the Court of questioning basically the bedrock of corporate law 455 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 7: for corporate America, for the Fortune five hundred. You know, 456 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:24,360 Speaker 7: all of his criticisms has led now to corporate law 457 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,239 Speaker 7: amendments being proposed in the Delaware legislature. There's a lot 458 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 7: of criticism directed at the court that this is not 459 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 7: how judges are supposed to act, and some of that 460 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 7: criticism is coming from people who just really aren't regular 461 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 7: to the corporate law world. So this court is really 462 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 7: the home for any legal question involving the Fortune five 463 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 7: hundred because all the judges are business law experts, including 464 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 7: this judge, Chancellor Kathleen McCormick, who has overseen the Elon 465 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 7: Musk cases. But it's also this very traditional court where 466 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 7: anyone who is looking for some kind of remedy that 467 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 7: doesn't involve money. Like if you have a property dispute 468 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 7: and money isn't really going to solve the problem for you, 469 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 7: you go to chancery court. If you have a will 470 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,360 Speaker 7: that you need to contest, or in a state that's 471 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 7: sort of in question, you go to chancery court. So 472 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,919 Speaker 7: all of these judges also from time to time have 473 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 7: to take on these so called smaller cases, cases that 474 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 7: don't really rise to the headlines that you see with 475 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 7: Elon Musk. It's a very old fashioned kind of court 476 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 7: in that sense. Most states don't have a court like this. 477 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 7: They just kind of go through civil court regardless of 478 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 7: what the question is. But in Delaware there are really 479 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 7: two civil courts, and chancery court is the one where 480 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 7: you go when money isn't really going to solve the 481 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 7: problem for you. And in this case, what mister Murckisey 482 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 7: wanted wasn't money for his course. He just really wanted 483 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 7: the horseback. 484 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 6: So on Christmas Eve afternoon, his lawyer gets a call 485 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 6: from the chief judge. 486 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,959 Speaker 7: So this crash happened basically late in the week before Christmas, 487 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 7: and it was I believe December twenty third when the 488 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 7: petition was filed and the attorney Angelica Mamani. She didn't 489 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 7: think anybody at the court was actually going to see 490 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 7: it until after Christmas because it was so close to 491 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 7: the holiday and things tend to shut down for holidays. 492 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 7: But she got word in the afternoon on Christmas Eve 493 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 7: as she was planning to take off to see her 494 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 7: family that Chancellor McCormick has a position and wanted to 495 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 7: hold a zoom meeting that night to try to see 496 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 7: what she could do to resolve the question, because there 497 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 7: was this urgency behind it. 498 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 2: So MARQUESI didn't consent to having his horse buried in 499 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 2: the landfill, but they wouldn't let him on the site 500 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 2: to retrieve her. So what were the questions that Chancellor 501 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 2: McCormick was faced with. 502 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,719 Speaker 7: It's an unusual question for sure to come up to 503 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,479 Speaker 7: the Chancery Court. All all Breton Mrkeusey wanted was to 504 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 7: reclaim the remains of his horse so that he could 505 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 7: have her cremated and he could, you know, celebrate her 506 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 7: life with some dignity. He didn't want to just leave 507 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 7: her remains dumped in the landfill because he had seen 508 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 7: other animal owners, other horse owners who really mistreated their horses, 509 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 7: their animals, you know, just ended up dumped, uncared for, unloved, 510 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 7: and Breeze wasn't unloved. Breeze was the dearly beloved horse 511 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 7: for Marqusi and his friends and family. What he wanted 512 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 7: was a court order go in and retrieved the horses 513 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,479 Speaker 7: remained so that he could take it and cremate it. 514 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 7: The state agency that runs the landfill, however, said, look, 515 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 7: we understand the issue. We're not, you know, trying to 516 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 7: keep mister Murkuisi from grieving his horse, but we we 517 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 7: can't allow people in because landfills just aren't meant for 518 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 7: this purpose. When something is in, we're not going to 519 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 7: go in and try to disturb the infrastructure. We don't 520 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 7: want to really least any toxic gases or other hazardous 521 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 7: material out where it might harm public safety. So these 522 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 7: are the questions that Chancellor McCormick suddenly had to consider 523 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 7: on Christmas Eve, and. 524 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 6: So how did she weigh the equities. 525 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 7: Chancellor McCormick said that this case was presenting new questions 526 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 7: for her that she had never had to consider in 527 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 7: all of her experience in corporate law and as a 528 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 7: judge at the Chancery Court. You know, first of all, 529 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 7: has this ever happened? And has anyone been able to 530 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 7: go into a landfill to retrieve something that was wrongly 531 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 7: placed there? And then how was she supposed to balance 532 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 7: public safety with the rights of this person whose property 533 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 7: was taken without their consent? And so she said, this 534 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 7: was just a really, really hard question. That there was 535 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 7: no doubt that mister Marquisi loved his horse and wanted 536 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 7: to do right by her and really just had a 537 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 7: simple request. He didn't want anything else out of a landfill, 538 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 7: just one of his property. But she had to acknowledge 539 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 7: that landfills are really delicate things, and you know, balancing 540 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 7: the equities required her to compare the relative importance of 541 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 7: the public safety and a landfills infrastructure with you know, 542 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 7: the dignity of this horse that was longly interred there. Ultimately, 543 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 7: she decided that the risks to public safety and public 544 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 7: health were too high to allow him to go into 545 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 7: the landfill. The state argued during one of the hearings 546 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 7: before her that really no one had ever been allowed 547 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 7: to go into a landfill and search for something except 548 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 7: for a murder case about thirty years ago. A famous 549 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 7: murder case involving ubernatorial aid named Anne Marie Sahy. That 550 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 7: was a very big deal in the mid nineties at 551 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 7: the time in the area. But that was really the 552 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 7: last time that the state could say, Hey, these are 553 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 7: the circumstances under which we let someone go in and 554 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 7: search in a landfill that's been kind of already processing 555 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 7: debris and capped over. 556 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 2: And how did Marquis feel the judge treated him and 557 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 2: handled the case. 558 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 7: So this wasn't you know, the first time that Brenton 559 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 7: Marksi's had ever appeared before a judge in Delaware. Like 560 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 7: I said, he's had some troubles, some personal struggles in 561 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 7: his past, but for these interactions with Chancellor McCormick, he 562 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 7: met with her over zoom, you know, with his attorney 563 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 7: and the attorney for the state, and she really let 564 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 7: him talk at great length about his relationship with his 565 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 7: horse and why he was so adamant about retreating her remains. 566 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 7: He said, look, I didn't get what I wanted out 567 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 7: of this experience, but I know that I was heard, 568 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 7: and she let me talk, and she listened to me 569 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 7: and responded to what I was saying, not what she 570 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 7: wanted to hear. And he said that he felt like 571 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 7: she treated him with compassion and that he could at 572 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 7: least walk away from the experience knowing that she treated 573 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 7: him compassionately, even if she couldn't give him what he 574 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 7: thought he should have gotten out of this. 575 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 6: Is he going to get another horse? 576 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 7: I did ask him that, and he's said, you know, 577 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 7: maybe I'll think about it a year from now. You know, 578 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 7: horses are expensive. He's a construction workers. He's not a 579 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 7: guy who has a ton of financial resources. He was 580 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 7: living paycheck to paycheck for a lot of the time 581 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 7: that he owned Breeze. Because this is a very large horse. 582 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 7: She was about two thousand pounds when she died. So 583 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,359 Speaker 7: I think he'd have to resolve some things financially before 584 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 7: he could commit to another lifetime with a horse. 585 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 2: So you talk to Delaware lawyers and what did they 586 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 2: think about the import of this case. 587 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,879 Speaker 7: You know, it's it's really interesting. This opinion came out 588 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 7: right after New Year's kind of in between two big 589 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 7: rulings involving Elon Musk and Tesla. You know, everyone was 590 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,240 Speaker 7: waiting for that second opinion regarding a settlement in Tesla 591 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 7: overboard compensation. So people will refreshing the court website. They 592 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 7: noticed when things post, and I think when this one posted, 593 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 7: and it had Chancellor McCormick's name on it, and they 594 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 7: actually read it and saw how torn she was in 595 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 7: making this decision against the horse's owner. They were really 596 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 7: struck by how she took the time when she's under 597 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 7: fire from the world's richest man and all of his 598 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 7: fans who have been swarming the court with online criticism, 599 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 7: that she would take the time to listen to this 600 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,879 Speaker 7: one man about his horse that he can't get back 601 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 7: out of a landfill. That really struck people, as that 602 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 7: shows how special this court is, that it's not only 603 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 7: set up to weigh these kinds of questions as though 604 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 7: they are the most important questions before a corporate board 605 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 7: or a billionaire. She was able to turn around this 606 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 7: opinion really quickly, and she kind of let everybody walk 607 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,720 Speaker 7: away feeling like they were heard, even if they couldn't 608 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,399 Speaker 7: get exactly what they wanted. No one felt like they 609 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 7: were disadvantaged or that she was biased against them more 610 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 7: or anything like that. 611 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,800 Speaker 2: This is a great story, Jennifer, about how the Delaware 612 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 2: chance record has these two very different sides to it. 613 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 2: That's Bloomberger Law Senior Correspondent Jennifer Ka, and that's it 614 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,840 Speaker 2: for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you 615 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,320 Speaker 2: can always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg 616 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 2: Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 617 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 2: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Slash Law, 618 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,240 Speaker 2: And remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every 619 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 2: weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm Junie Grosso 620 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 2: and you're listening to Bloomberg