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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast am on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Your book is The Languages of Magic. So how is

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Speaker 2: magic a language?

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Speaker 3: First?

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Speaker 4: I think I should maybe to find what I mean

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Speaker 4: by magic in this context, because, as I found, it's

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Speaker 4: a word that means a lot of different things to

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Speaker 4: different people. And when talking about magic, if people aren't

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Speaker 4: on the same page, so to speak about what they

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Speaker 4: mean by it, you can have this communication, which is

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Speaker 4: part of the point of my book. So what I

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Speaker 4: mean by magic in this context is when I'm talking

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Speaker 4: about using symbolic means, whether that's symbolic language, particular science,

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Speaker 4: or symbols are meaningful to the person doing magic and

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Speaker 4: so forth that they use to first create a change

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Speaker 4: within themselves, but then impress that change on the world

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Speaker 4: outside themselves. And what magic is a process of communication

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Speaker 4: under that definition means is that when I am directing

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Speaker 4: my magic toward something that I want to bring into beings.

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Speaker 4: So I want to change about myself something, what's change

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Speaker 4: about the world around myself something and some opportunity I

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Speaker 4: want to bring to myself or to make myself aware of.

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Speaker 4: I I treat that not as a one way communication.

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Speaker 4: This is not like you would do like speak a

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Speaker 4: seek the spell, like and Harry Potter and go and

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Speaker 4: say the magic word and then the magic happens. No,

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Speaker 4: this is a back and forth. This is a communication

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Speaker 4: process similar to how you would if you're trying to

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Speaker 4: persuade or to reach an agreement with someone, unless you

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Speaker 4: have certain authority or whatnot, you wouldn't just dictate them

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Speaker 4: what you want. You would you would negotiate with them.

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Speaker 4: You would talk to them about what it is that

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Speaker 4: they need, what it is that you need. What did

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Speaker 4: find out what it is that they respond to? And

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Speaker 4: applying this to magic means that you can take that

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Speaker 4: that that same the same principles of communication to reach

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Speaker 4: an agreement and also to reach a makesically to find

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Speaker 4: what the phenomenon that you wish to bring about will

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Speaker 4: respond to.

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Speaker 2: M So this is different than manifesting. You hear people say, okay,

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Speaker 2: you start with the vision board and you think about

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Speaker 2: certain things and that way you manifest it. So this

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Speaker 2: is completely different. It sounds almost like you're trying to,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to say manipulate, but you're trying to

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Speaker 2: take the situation and angle it in a way where

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Speaker 2: you'll be able to get what you want out of it.

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Speaker 4: The way that I view it, magic is not so

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Speaker 4: much about creating results. It's about creating opportunities and what

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Speaker 4: those opportunities are. The act of magic makes you aware

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Speaker 4: of them so that you can be so you can

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Speaker 4: see them when they occur, and so that you can

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Speaker 4: direct your actions toward bringing them about. So while in

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Speaker 4: a broad sense, maybe it is a bit related to

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Speaker 4: the manifestation idea in a sense, but it's a bit

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Speaker 4: more nuanced I think from that.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so that's an interesting way to handle life. Do

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Speaker 2: you use it in everyday life? So, for example, you're

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Speaker 2: ordering a coffee at a Starbucks? Would you use it there?

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Speaker 2: Or is this like you're in a business deal and

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Speaker 2: you're trying to get the best deal out of the

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Speaker 2: other company. When would you use something like this?

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Speaker 4: Right, Well, many things don't require magic at all. If

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Speaker 4: if it's simple to just walk across the room and

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Speaker 4: flip the light switch onto her the light on, then

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Speaker 4: that's the way you should do it. Same thing with

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Speaker 4: ordering your coffee. Now, when we were and this is

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Speaker 4: part of the communication background that I bring into the

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Speaker 4: book in a great deal of detail, let's take the

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Speaker 4: ordering a coffee example, because that's actually a really good one.

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Speaker 4: So let's talk about what's happening from just from a

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Speaker 4: pure communication point of view. So what you're doing is

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Speaker 4: you are engaged with what the philosopher Ludvig Vitckensheine will

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Speaker 4: call a language game. Now he's not using this in

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Speaker 4: a frivolous sense, but he's meaning that the language has

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Speaker 4: certain rules, there are certain plays that you make towards

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Speaker 4: certain ends, and part of effective communication in any particular

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Speaker 4: circumstances understanding what the rules are within that circumstance. So

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Speaker 4: with your ordering the coffee sample, you know you're expected

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Speaker 4: to have an idea of what it is you want

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Speaker 4: to order when you're when you're talking to the person

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Speaker 4: of the counter, you're expected to say certain pleasantries. You're

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Speaker 4: expected to you're not expected to long in want into

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Speaker 4: a long discussion about but anything unless you happen maybe

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Speaker 4: know the barista or something like that. And so the

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Speaker 4: rules of the game are that you basically you step up,

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Speaker 4: you have in mind what you want to order, and

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Speaker 4: then you you say the things that are necessary in

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Speaker 4: order to convey that order. So if we let's take

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Speaker 4: that in terms of look at magic at how that

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Speaker 4: applies to something where you would be used magic. So

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Speaker 4: you mentioned the business deal idea, and you also mentioned

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Speaker 4: earlier about wondering whether this is manipulation or something else.

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Speaker 4: So the way that I view magic, where it's most

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Speaker 4: ethically performed in any event, is that it's not an

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Speaker 4: act of compelling someone to do something. It's but it

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Speaker 4: is more akin to impelling someone to do something. Now

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Speaker 4: what the difference is there, And that's kind of subtle,

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Speaker 4: and maybe not everyone is used to using it, especially

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Speaker 4: impelling a normal conversation. It's the same if I give

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Speaker 4: use a rather blunt example, it's the same thing of

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Speaker 4: threatening someone to do something by you know, threatening to

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Speaker 4: hit them with a baseball bat or something, versus persuading

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Speaker 4: them to do it, versus making them want to do it,

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Speaker 4: or making with them want to cooperate with you.

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Speaker 3: And if you're in a.

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Speaker 4: Situation where where blunt force works, just fine, you don't

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Speaker 4: need something like magic. You just use blunt force, and

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Speaker 4: you shouldn't do that unless that's the only option. But

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Speaker 4: with your business deal example, I would first and work

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Speaker 4: as best I can to establish good, normal, communicating mundane

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Speaker 4: communication with the people that I'm interacting with, the people

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Speaker 4: I'm negotiating with. But as part of that, I'm going

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Speaker 4: to pay attention to the language that I use. I'm

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Speaker 4: going to pay attention to what sorts of signals and

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Speaker 4: what sorts of signs they give me to say the

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Speaker 4: things that are important to them, and I'm going to

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Speaker 4: very consciously try to adapt the way that I talk

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Speaker 4: to them into ways that they would be.

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Speaker 3: Most amenable to working with me on.

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Speaker 4: So what I've done is I'm still have to negotiate

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Speaker 4: in the same way I would do any other part

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Speaker 4: of the business deal, but I've added something additional to

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Speaker 4: it that goes beyond just a meta communication, if you will,

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Speaker 4: something that's beyond just simple over communication. That is that

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Speaker 4: is adding to their willingness to work with.

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Speaker 3: Me on this deal.

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Speaker 4: And so that's a very important thing about magic in

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Speaker 4: this sense, is that magic is rarely the only thing

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Speaker 4: that you rely on, is something you used to add

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Speaker 4: on to the other things you're already doing.

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Speaker 3: M hm.

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Speaker 2: That's interesting. Are some people more in tune with it?

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Speaker 2: And I'll give you an example, because I don't know

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Speaker 2: if it's a men versus women type of thing. So

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Speaker 2: when I'm out with my wife, she's very social, she's

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Speaker 2: very good at communicating with people. She knows the right

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Speaker 2: things to say, and you know she's she's very polite

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Speaker 2: in the way she'll do it. But if we're in

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Speaker 2: a social situation, for example, and we're talking to a

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Speaker 2: couple and I noticed the person's missing a finger, the

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Speaker 2: first thing I say is, how did you lose a finger?

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Speaker 2: And she'll look at me and say, you can't be

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Speaker 2: that direct with people. I think there's certain things where

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Speaker 2: people are in tune way to navigate social situations. I

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Speaker 2: don't think I'm one of those people. I think I'm

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Speaker 2: more direct. What do I have to learn here? What

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Speaker 2: could I be doing better when it comes to communication

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Speaker 2: in the background in order to try to get through

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Speaker 2: some of these situations that you're discussing.

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Speaker 4: Well, that's back to the meta communication idea that when

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Speaker 4: we're communicating with someone in any circumstance, there's always much

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Speaker 4: more that's going on beyond just the words. There is

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Speaker 4: the particular contact in which is happening. There is the

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Speaker 4: relative station of the people involved. Like you know, you

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Speaker 4: have a different conversation with a coworker or friend than

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Speaker 4: you would with the CEO of your company. And it

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Speaker 4: is true in my experience that women tend to have

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Speaker 4: a much greater sense of the meta communication that's in

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Speaker 4: play in most social interactions, and that that is a

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Speaker 4: ded a part of magic. It's part of what you

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Speaker 4: add on to the mundane, visible part of a situation

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Speaker 4: that make the wheels turn more smoothly, make make the

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Speaker 4: outcomes that you look conform more likely to achieve it,

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Speaker 4: and so forth. Now that being said, just as anyone

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Speaker 4: can learn to become a better communicator in a mundane

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Speaker 4: sense that it's a skill that can be improved. It's

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Speaker 4: a skill that you can you can learn how to

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Speaker 4: work with the things that that are sort of said

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Speaker 4: without being said that that you can. Some of this

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Speaker 4: you learn by example, but some of us also. If

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Speaker 4: you read about theories of communication, and there are quite

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Speaker 4: a number of ways that people approach communication as a

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Speaker 4: as a field of study, but there are there are

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Speaker 4: different ways to there's always different ways to achieve the

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Speaker 4: goal that you're looking for. But like any skill, you

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Speaker 4: will need to practice it and you will need to

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Speaker 4: start with good information.

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Speaker 2: Let's go back to some of your other interests. So

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Speaker 2: speaking of language, you have an interest in ruins. Out

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Speaker 2: of all of this play together, can you learn things

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Speaker 2: from let's say, ancient alphabets.

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Speaker 3: Oh, for sure.

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Speaker 4: Well, one of the things that we miss about the

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Speaker 4: alphabet is many people don't know the sort of the

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Speaker 4: history of the alphabet that we use, which is usually

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Speaker 4: called the Latin alphabet, because that's sort of where we

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Speaker 4: got it from the speakers of Latin as they spread

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Speaker 4: throughout Europe with the spread of Christianity. Well, the Latin

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Speaker 4: alphabet in turn was derived from the Greek alphabet, which

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Speaker 4: I think most people kind of have a sense of,

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Speaker 4: And if you go further back beyond that, the Greeks,

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Speaker 4: through a few levels of indirection, adapted from the Phoenicians.

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Speaker 4: So we're talking about this would have been at the

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Speaker 4: conclusion of what's called the Greek Dark Ages, So this

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Speaker 4: is around five or six hundred BC. I believe, maybe

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Speaker 4: a little further back. We don't exactly know when. We

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Speaker 4: have a bob of ark idea of when, just because

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Speaker 4: we can tell when they started using it for writing.

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Speaker 4: And so where I'm going with this and where this

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Speaker 4: kind of connects to your question is we're used to

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Speaker 4: just thinking of the letters that's A, B, C, D

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Speaker 4: and so forth, and that they have those special significance.

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Speaker 4: It's just that that letter maps to that sound, and

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Speaker 4: that's all we think of with it, because that's the

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Speaker 4: way that we use the alphabet. The Phoenicians, however, had

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Speaker 4: names for the letters, and the names were meaningful names,

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Speaker 4: and the letters basically started the the letter represented the

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Speaker 4: sound of the first sound in that name. So for example,

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Speaker 4: the first letter was off or there's a couple of

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Speaker 4: different plays to render it, but that's one of the

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Speaker 4: that means something like a house. That's the same. It's

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Speaker 4: actually the same as the Hebrew alphabet. I'll F is

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Speaker 4: the first letter. Now, when you have what's called an

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Speaker 4: acrophonic system, which is that using the sound of the

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Speaker 4: first sound of the word for the letter, now you

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Speaker 4: can give meaning to the letters. Instead of it just

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Speaker 4: being represented that sound, it can also represent that concept.

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Speaker 4: Not just sticking with the house example, not just sticking

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Speaker 4: with the you know, four walls and a roof and

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Speaker 4: all that, but like, what does the house mean to you?

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Speaker 4: What is the significance of it? Maybe you have some

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Speaker 4: image of home that comes to you. That's very that's

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Speaker 4: very poignant. Or that's very very emotional or brings back

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Speaker 4: memories and so forth. So when you have a system

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Speaker 4: about that and runs work the same way, and I'll

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Speaker 4: get to that in a second. Now you have additional

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Speaker 4: layers of meaning, you have additional meta communication.

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Speaker 3: You can use this part of the normal communication that

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Speaker 3: you do with the alphabet.

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Speaker 2: Where can I take you? I mean, could you ever

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Speaker 2: research languages, research letters, the names behind letters, And that's

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Speaker 2: taking you to some weird places, because there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of mysteries in the world today that people have forgotten

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Speaker 2: about because little things like this have been lost over time.

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Speaker 2: So maybe there are subtexts that we don't understand anymore

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Speaker 2: in language, or you know, we read some ancient text

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Speaker 2: and we don't understand the context to it because it's

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Speaker 2: been lost over time. Do you find that learning things

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Speaker 2: like this help you unravel some mysteries in the world?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Absolutely absolutely.

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Speaker 4: I mean that's the basis of things like a gamatria,

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Speaker 4: where where you basically interpret the number and the meaning

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Speaker 4: behind the individual letters in words of Greek or Hebrew

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Speaker 4: and so forth, to find a deeper meaning than just

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Speaker 4: what's in the word itself. So I can talk a

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Speaker 4: little bit about runes, because I'm more family with that

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Speaker 4: system that I am with the Hebrew of the Phoenician systems.

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Speaker 4: So runs also have they're also acrophonic in the same way.

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Speaker 4: So the first roun typically is a room called feyhu,

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Speaker 4: which is a very old word is related to our

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Speaker 4: modern word fee, but it means cattle in the very

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Speaker 4: mundane sense. But it also represents money because that was

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Speaker 4: movable wealth for the ancient dramatic people that rote with runes.

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Speaker 4: And but this is more.

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Speaker 3: Than just wealth. You think about think about the things

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Speaker 3: that wealth brings to you.

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Speaker 4: So you can you have a certain level of power

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Speaker 4: within the world, you have a certain level of security,

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Speaker 4: you have a certain level you can you can use

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Speaker 4: that to parlay it into other things and so forth.

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Speaker 4: But think about what it means to have if we

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Speaker 4: run the power metaphor aspect, but think about what it

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Speaker 4: means to have and developed personal power. Well, that's something

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Speaker 4: that you can also cultivate it. You can grow it,

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Speaker 4: you can circulate it, you can share it, you can

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Speaker 4: use it, you can hoard it, all those.

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Speaker 3: Same things that you can do with money.

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Speaker 4: So this opens up like a new dimension that you

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Speaker 4: can think of it if you think of with any

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Speaker 4: of the room UNEs, if you think of a mundane

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Speaker 4: the mundane surface level of what the rune name means,

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Speaker 4: but also the symbolic meaning within it. That opens up

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Speaker 4: blossom new avenues for not only understanding runs individually in

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Speaker 4: and of themselves, but also you can pull apart words,

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Speaker 4: for example, written in ruins and use certain ways of

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Speaker 4: writing words in order to invest them with the meaning

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Speaker 4: of the letters behind them, of the individual rune staves

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Speaker 4: as we call them behind them. So it's a way

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Speaker 4: of encoding additional meaning into it, also a way of

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Speaker 4: deriving meaning out of something that you find written in ruins?

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Speaker 2: Have we found that meanings have changed in our interpretations

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Speaker 2: of them are completely different than their intentions? So have

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Speaker 2: you studied some ruins or have you study certain words?

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Speaker 2: And the way that we think about them today are

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Speaker 2: completely different than the way they were thought of a

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Speaker 2: Why ago? Is there anything that comes to mind?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Sure?

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Speaker 4: My go to example for that is I don't maybe

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Speaker 4: on a laptop with a touchpad. But most people stold

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Speaker 4: today remember having the little thing attached to it or

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Speaker 4: not attached anymore, called a mouse. Well, the thing wasn't

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Speaker 4: always called a mouse. Right at some point someone had said, hey,

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Speaker 4: that kind of looks like a mouse. And what started

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Speaker 4: as kind of a joke or a little you know,

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Speaker 4: a pun six, and now that thing is called a mouse.

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Speaker 4: And now you end up with where if it's connected

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Speaker 4: with Bluetooth, where there's there's no actual cable, it no

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Speaker 4: longer resembles a mouse that much. But that's just the

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Speaker 4: name we use for that thing.

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