1 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcast featuring conversations with 2 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 1: industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm 3 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,479 Speaker 1: Cynthia Lyttleton, co editor in chief of Variety Today. My 4 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: guest is Bill O'Dowd, founder and CEO of Dolphin Entertainment. 5 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 1: This interview is a byproduct of a conversation that I 6 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: had with O'Dowd last month when his company launched a 7 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: partnership with the online capital raising platform deal Maker. We 8 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: were talking about the creator and influencer economy and how 9 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: it's intersecting with marketing at every level, particularly entertainment marketing. 10 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: I knew we needed to continue that discussion for Strictly Business. 11 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: As O'Dowd explains, Dolphin's origins were as a production company 12 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: that did a lot of business with Nickelodeon and MTV 13 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: for kids and ya content That put him in the 14 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: perfect position to capitalize on the power of online and 15 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 1: then social media communities that started to develop in the 16 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: mid aughts. About a decade ago, he decided to realign 17 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: Dolphin around marketing and communications. He bought heavy hitter pr 18 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: firms forty two West and shore Fire Media, as well 19 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: as boutique specialists in events and brand deals and audience insight. 20 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: Dolphin also owns the Creator Talent rep firm, the Digital Department. 21 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: In our conversation, O'Dowd explains how it's all been threaded 22 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: together under Dolphin Entertainment. Dolphin is publicly traded and has 23 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: a market cap of about twenty million. Bill O'Dowd, CEO 24 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: and founder of Dolphin Entertainment, thank you so much for 25 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: coming to the Variety offices today to talk to me. 26 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, Cynthia. I'm excited to be here. 27 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: We're picking up the thread of a conversation that started 28 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: when we were talking about a different story, but it 29 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: was so fascinating as strictly business listeners know, we're very 30 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: interesting in how the world of marketing, celebrity, entertainment, audience, 31 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: the ability to amass audience that you can control it 32 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: has changed the game. But let's dive right into it, 33 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: back into the conversation that we kind of started at Dolphin. 34 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: You have forty two West, you have special projects, you 35 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: have numerous agencies that intersect in this new world of 36 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: celebrity and marketing and product launches. Where would you say 37 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: that your firms are busiest right now. 38 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 2: No doubt. I'd say the two areas that we get 39 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: so many incoming calls about in the last six months 40 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 2: would either be creators or influencers looking to launch brands 41 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 2: or branded content questions coming from more established brands themselves. 42 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 2: How could they make original content that would tell their story? 43 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: What are the expertise and the disciplines that are in 44 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: Dolphin that have allowed you to really thrive in this area. 45 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 2: We see it from all angles in the sense that 46 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 2: we have an influencer marketing agency, the Digital Department, run 47 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 2: by Sarah Boyd and Ali Grant, that has multiple divisions. 48 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 2: We represent influencers and manage their brand relationships, but we 49 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 2: also have an entire division run by Ashley Finch that 50 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 2: manages and creates i should say, the strategy and then 51 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 2: executes that strategy for brands to run influencer campaigns. And 52 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 2: so when you can see it from both sides, what 53 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: each side is trying to accomplish to serve in that 54 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 2: matchmaking role, that I think is just one of those 55 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 2: great advantages that that company has is that you can 56 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 2: see it across the entire creator ecosystem. Celebrities also want 57 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 2: to play traditional celebrities want to play in the influencer 58 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 2: space and certainly in the brand space if they feel 59 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 2: like they could communicate authentically to their audience. They were 60 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 2: a little slower to go the other way because they 61 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 2: didn't know if it would come across as shilling versus 62 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 2: actually just engaging with their own fans. 63 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: Let's start from the brand perspective. Do you often get 64 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: a phone call with somebody has a personality or a 65 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: sector in mind and you help make that deal, or 66 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: do you find that your companies are like talent scouts 67 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: to try to find Okay, what's the fit, what's the 68 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:23,559 Speaker 1: audience target that you want to reach? 69 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is a little bit more. The second one, 70 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 2: I would say, brands will come to us and say 71 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 2: we're launching this product, or we want to target a 72 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 2: new demographic for an existing product, and how can you 73 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 2: help us do that? And it could be based on geography, 74 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 2: it could be based on age and the idea. Then 75 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 2: once we have a strategy of who we're going after, 76 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 2: then you get into the second level, which is, well, 77 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 2: what type of influencer do you want? A macro influencer 78 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 2: somebody with five million followers, ten million followers, or do 79 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: you want to would be more effective to have fifty 80 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,239 Speaker 2: influencers each with an audience of less than one hundred thousand, 81 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 2: But a deeply engaged audience that creates a large word 82 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 2: of mouth campaign over a period of time. 83 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: Is mass still important in this area? Or what you're 84 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: saying is that having that specific niche of you know, 85 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: women with young children that love minivans, being able to 86 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: say I reach that cohort very efficiently, that's a very 87 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: big selling point. 88 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 2: One hundred percent. I'll give you a good example of that. 89 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 2: Maybe let's talk skincare for a second. We have a 90 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 2: great professional beauty division run by Olivia Hubschman and Bianca Yasharel, 91 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 2: and that division represents many dermatologists. Now, the professional working 92 00:05:55,320 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 2: dermatologists may have follower accounts well under a million, Yet 93 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 2: their ability to speak authentically and about a product or 94 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: an issue something that the product's trying to solve is 95 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 2: extremely valuable to brands. And they probably command paychecks per 96 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 2: campaign equivalent to influencers that have five to ten times 97 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 2: their normal audience. But they're speaking directly to a cohort 98 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 2: to use your word and authentically. And there's a great example, 99 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 2: and I would honestly say that the professional division of 100 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 2: our company is one of the fastest growing because brands 101 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 2: recognize just how impactful an influencer campaign can be. 102 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: In that area, there's a lot of pros. What are 103 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: the cons or what are the things that you have 104 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: to watch out for with an influencer marketing arrangement that 105 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: you might not in a more traditional celebrity endorsement deal. 106 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 2: Well, first, you have the FTC so Federal Trade Commission. 107 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: There's that, yes, and they're pretty active these days, whether 108 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: Republican or Democrat. The FTC has real teeth these days. 109 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 2: Absolutely, you want to always make sure that you're disclosing 110 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 2: if it's a paid advertisement, to say the least. With 111 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 2: that said, then you know there's always the concern that 112 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: you'd have whichever media you know, reputational concern. You want 113 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 2: to make sure that the influencer or the celebrity is 114 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 2: on brand and stays on brand. But otherwise, there are 115 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: just so many advantages to digital marketing. 116 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: At twenty years ago, you could pick ten top shows 117 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: and blast it and you could hit some definitive percentage 118 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: of the country. I think even if you take the 119 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: ten top shows, now, nobody's watching them at the same time. 120 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: You just don't have that same punch. 121 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 2: Very very very rarely. Yeah, we Adrian Jefferson had Disrupt, 122 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 2: one of our agencies ran a great campaign to launch 123 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: the new Adida shoe with Bad Bunny at the Super Bowl. 124 00:07:55,360 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 2: Absence something of that scale, it is extremely difficult to 125 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 2: create that type of reach these days. 126 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: If you're doing something with the high end, blue chip brand, 127 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: what kind of ROI are they looking for? Do they 128 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: want to report in thirty days that the person put 129 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: up five posts and they were seen by five million people. 130 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 2: Sure, and it will vary by brand and what their 131 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 2: particular KPIs would be, but what you just hit is 132 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 2: pretty standard. It's typically thirty days after it can be enduring, 133 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 2: by the way, and depending how long the actual engagement 134 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 2: may be. One of the beauties of the digital space 135 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 2: is that it moves a lot faster. One of the 136 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 2: things we talk about internally is it used to be 137 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 2: you talk with a creative team, you'd come up with 138 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 2: a concept that took a couple months. Then you'd know 139 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 2: prep a production and that took a couple of months, 140 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 2: and in between posts and then talking about media placement, 141 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 2: you could have an idea in February and see it 142 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 2: go into the world in September, and that was not 143 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 2: uncommon in the creator economy. You're having a conversation in 144 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 2: February and it's up in February and maybe March. And 145 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 2: so I think the most common KPIs would be what 146 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 2: is the engagement level and if you're trying to drive ROI, 147 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 2: if it's click through rates and click to purchase can 148 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 2: also be measured, which again you just don't have in 149 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 2: traditional media. 150 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:24,839 Speaker 1: So let's talk about it from your creator and influencer 151 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: clients perspective. Do you have creator clients that will come 152 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: to one of their representatives, I have a great idea 153 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 1: for Panera bread or is it more organic conversations and 154 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: then your folks figure out, oh, this could be a 155 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: fit with. 156 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 2: It really leans more commonly to the second one as 157 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 2: you would expect. You know, we do have creators and 158 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 2: we see them in the industry that are little many 159 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 2: Ryan Reynolds, so that they have these tremendous advertising ideas 160 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 2: and they have little many maximum efforts out there with 161 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 2: some great ideas and they'll say, I, I really have 162 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 2: a fun sketch or something I could do with this 163 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 2: particular brand or a brand in this field the majority 164 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:13,839 Speaker 2: of them, though, we hold strategy sessions every three months 165 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 2: with every one of our clients and hearing what they 166 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,439 Speaker 2: have enjoyed doing and also where the campaigns that they've done, 167 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 2: where they've been most successful and be able to share 168 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 2: that with brand clients makes a lot of sense. 169 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 1: From the creator client perspective, I'm guessing that there has 170 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: to be a balance. You can't have it all be 171 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: sponsored or branded content to maintain that level of authenticity 172 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: in their area. 173 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 2: One percent branded content is typically or a brand paid 174 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 2: content is a minority of any one of their feeds, 175 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 2: or else you lose your audience. But what's interesting is 176 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 2: we see not only no drop off, we often see 177 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 2: increases in their following if you have the right mix 178 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 2: of branded content, because it does give authenticity to those 179 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 2: creators and when brands notice them as being either credible. 180 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 2: Imagine again back to the dermatology spaceically, you know, out 181 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 2: of a straight consumer product space, and it certainly speaks 182 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 2: well of the creator when they're being sponsored by sarav 183 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 2: or Neutrogena. 184 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: You mentioned product launches, which is also something that is 185 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: this world has evolved in the distribution channels that now 186 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: that you can reach people through so many platforms, you know, 187 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: widely distributed social media platforms, so you have so much 188 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: control the potential to launch products, to not just promote products, 189 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: but wholly launch products. We've seen the wave of digital 190 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: native products that have become so successful. I was talking 191 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: to a top Hollywood lawyer saying, that's the new syndication, 192 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: that's the new profit participation, just from a potential to 193 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: launch something that becomes that annuity that had tradition been 194 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: successful television shows and movie that would send the person's 195 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: grandkids to college. Are you seeing that now in the 196 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 1: consumer product space. I know that's an area where Dolphin 197 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: is really focused. 198 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 2: It was that insight, Cynthia that led to this building 199 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 2: of this group, or the first twenty years of Dolphin. 200 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 2: We were a production company and we're probably most known 201 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 2: for a long great relationship with Nickelodeon. We made between 202 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:29,959 Speaker 2: Ya family programming. One of our shows Zoe one to 203 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 2: one another one that's to classified. They launched consumer products. 204 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 2: The other thing that happens though, when you make children's 205 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 2: programming back then this is so let me put you 206 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 2: in the era five, six, seven, eight, the rise of 207 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 2: social media. I remember when the Three Dads sold YouTube 208 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 2: to Google. We were putting clips of our kit shows 209 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 2: on online to promote the kit shows. We were making 210 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 2: original content for ale Well and Yahoo and Facebook long 211 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 2: before streaming. I only say that to put in context 212 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 2: what led us to bet on what's now called the 213 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,959 Speaker 2: creator economy back then was called mommy blockers. Right. It 214 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 2: was the simple fact that we saw Facebook's rise, you know, 215 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 2: and remember that wasn't a guarantee, but we were in 216 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 2: the kids business, and we were in the young adult business, 217 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 2: and we saw how they interacted with this medium. At 218 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 2: the mobile Internet democratized the launch of consumer products. You 219 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 2: no longer needed to have tens of millions of dollars 220 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 2: of a paid media campaign to launch a consumer product. 221 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 2: You could go directly to the audience, which, as we 222 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 2: all know, just simply was not true until you could 223 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 2: reach the audience directly yourself. And so what has happened. 224 00:13:54,600 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 2: You absolutely can launch skincare products as one. Vertical influencers 225 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 2: can simply buy themselves. As a matter of fact, the 226 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 2: best story I've got there is Susan Yarra. Susan was 227 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 2: one of the og makeup influencers and she has a 228 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 2: channel on YouTube called Mixed Makeup, and she launched an 229 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 2: notarium in the summer of twenty twenty in COVID. Three 230 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 2: years later she sold it to elf Beauty for three 231 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty five million with nothing but an influencer 232 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 2: marketing campaign and a dash of PR. There was no 233 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 2: pay media. 234 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: Let's step back and a couple of steps back. Bill, 235 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: what led you to launch Dolphin Entertainment? What was your background? 236 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 2: My career is one based on luck, Cynthia, So I'm 237 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 2: a failed attorney. I was lucky enough to go to 238 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 2: Harvard Law School, but I didn't like being a lawyer. 239 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 2: So after eight months I launched effectively Dolphin Entertainment. It 240 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 2: was me, myself and I and went to Europe and 241 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 2: I pre sold American television and started with a first 242 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 2: look deal over at ABC. So it was by pure luck. 243 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 2: It just kept growing the company and by the early 244 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 2: two thousands built a nice little business making TV movies 245 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 2: a miniseries. But it was a relationship with MTV. I 246 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 2: just finished making a TV movie with MTV and a 247 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 2: woman named Liz Kuller who was just a great lady, 248 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 2: and she introduced me to Nickelodeon, and that's really a 249 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 2: good luck point for me working with simaz Argami, Margie 250 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 2: Khane and the team there because it was the right place, 251 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 2: right time when Live Action Kids was just taking off. 252 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 2: And that again goes into the idea of how early 253 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 2: we were in seeing the power of using social media 254 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 2: to promote content. And then by twenty sixteen, the big 255 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 2: idea there was we had kept growing, Dolphin had kept growing, 256 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 2: We had just done a couple of our first feature films, 257 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 2: a Justin Bieber documentary with John Chouo directing co production 258 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 2: with Mattel. We were staying in that ye space, but 259 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 2: you could see what was coming Bob Iger Disney and 260 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 2: announce they were pulling their content off a Netflix, which, 261 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 2: if you remember back then, it was always the bet 262 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 2: in Hollywood how long would the studios keep selling to 263 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 2: Netflix once they once they entered with their own original 264 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 2: content with Lilly Hammer and House of Cards. And it 265 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 2: was just the idea to form this group was based 266 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 2: on having paid for those films and paid for the 267 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 2: marketing of those films, that I was willing to bet 268 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 2: that in the there would be tailwinds to the marketing 269 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 2: industry of entertainment based on what was going about to 270 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 2: be a boom and a streaming war of content, and 271 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 2: on the heels of that we could build this. 272 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: Group that was a good bet. You went right into 273 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: the maw of peak TV. 274 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 2: But you know, the other thing too, is it's funny 275 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 2: when you think about influencer marketing, is it in the 276 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 2: paid side or the earn side? Like if we divide 277 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 2: all of marketing, indeed they're paid or earned right, and 278 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 2: today I think for a lot of people it would 279 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 2: be right down the middle, or maybe even leaned towards 280 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 2: paid because influencers get paid so frequently. But back then 281 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 2: it was firmly in the earned camp because there wasn't 282 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 2: this long history of paying influencers. So the real gamble 283 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 2: was simply would feel so organic to us today not 284 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 2: to use the same word in different context, is that 285 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 2: PR an influencer would be peanut butter and jelly, that 286 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 2: you needed to have both to launch effectively in anything 287 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 2: that's touching the consumer. And the other insight was that 288 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 2: the PR firms that I was hiring for the movies 289 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 2: and TV, they didn't do music, they didn't do celebrity chefs, 290 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 2: you know, and the idea of celebrity chefs or certainly 291 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 2: the foodies, and the Food Network was also during my 292 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 2: TV career the Food Network launched. And so if you 293 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 2: could bring in a group with a forty two West, 294 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 2: with a shorefire, best in class PR firms in their 295 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 2: verticals the door for celebrity chefs, lifestyle and hospitality, then 296 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 2: you could reach across horizontal scale. You could reach all 297 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 2: of pop culture on the PR side, and then create 298 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 2: groups within your influencer marketing agency that could target each 299 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 2: of those areas. Then you've got something because then you 300 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 2: can literally launch a consumer product using pop culture, which 301 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: is one of the few things that seems to be 302 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 2: a unifying factor at times. 303 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 1: When you started to put this together and started to 304 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: acquire firms, did it take a little bit of time 305 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: for people to understand what you were seeing. 306 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 2: I feel very lucky, Cynthia, because the two hesitations were, Okay, 307 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 2: you want to buy my private company, and I could 308 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 2: look them in the eye and say, I know what's 309 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 2: going on in your mind, because Dolphin was private for 310 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 2: twenty years, and the idea of someone coming in and 311 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 2: I don't want to report to anybody or anything like that, 312 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 2: or will you come in and destroy the cult or 313 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 2: let people go. And was lucky enough that they believed 314 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 2: me that the idea here was not to put a 315 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 2: group together and then strip it or cut cost. Quite 316 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 2: the opposite. It was to put a group together that 317 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 2: would work together to then raise opportunities to co sell, 318 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 2: to bring disciplines together that you could go to brands 319 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 2: that are clients and talk what you like campaigns and 320 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 2: film and music in across influencer and it was growth. 321 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 2: And so today that's accepted. But I give a lot 322 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 2: of credit to Amanda Lumberg Leslie Dart at forty two 323 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 2: US because they believed me you needed that first company, 324 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 2: and so by the time you got to the second 325 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 2: and third companies, I would say, simply talk to Amanda, 326 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 2: talk to Lesli, because they all have those same questions. 327 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 2: And so I think the luckiest statistic in my career 328 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 2: is that we've bought eight companies in eight years and 329 00:19:58,800 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 2: we only made eight offer. 330 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: Let me take you back a couple steps back. After 331 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: you realize a corporate law wasn't for you, what made 332 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 1: you focus on entertainment? 333 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 2: The idea of being in the entertainment business just wasn't 334 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 2: something I even considered because probably, like a lot of 335 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 2: people that are in the entertainment business, I didn't know 336 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 2: anyone in the entertainment business. I was just a kid 337 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 2: from Miami, Florida. But I was very lucky that the 338 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 2: school started teaching entertainment law. When I was there. I 339 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 2: wrote my thesis on a music copyright issue, what would 340 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 2: happen if the consumer could digitally download music? Can you imagine? 341 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety three? And there were a couple of 342 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,239 Speaker 2: alums that were just very nice to me as we 343 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 2: were putting the course together or in the research for 344 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 2: my paper, two very well known music attorneys Don Passman, 345 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 2: Jay Cooper. 346 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: Don Passman literally wrote the book. 347 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,360 Speaker 2: Everything you Need to Know about Music Business. I think 348 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 2: he's on the third edition when I was in law school, 349 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 2: and he's just the nicest man to the son's great too, right, Danny. 350 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 2: And they really gave me the bug. They were very 351 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 2: nice to me, And it's kind of funny. I didn't 352 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 2: go into the music business, I guess, but so when 353 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 2: I knew I wasn't going to be happy as a lawyer, 354 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 2: and really it was just more I saw what corporate 355 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 2: law was and I wanted to be the client, and 356 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 2: I knows as crazy as that sounds, yeah, I said, 357 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 2: let me try that. And of course you know right place. 358 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 2: Right time, mid nineties, the Finsen rules had just been rescinded. 359 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 2: Europe was starting to get satellite, So now you had 360 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 2: a real business in selling American television to Western Europe. 361 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 2: And I just found. 362 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: A niche that Bill. I can't thank you enough for 363 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: taking the time to talk through this and sharing a 364 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: few trade secrets. I find this whole world fascinating and 365 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: I love talking to people that are knee deep in 366 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: it and pushing the ball forward. 367 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Cynthia. It's a pleasure to be here 368 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 2: and always happy to. 369 00:21:54,119 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: Talk to you. Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave 370 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 1: us a review at the podcast platform of your choice. 371 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: We love to hear from listeners. You can also drop 372 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 1: us a line at podcasts at Variety dot com. Please 373 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: go to Variety dot com and sign up for the 374 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: free weekly Strictly Business newsletter, and don't forget to tune 375 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 1: in next week for another episode of Strictly Business.