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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Cool People who did cool stuff.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy. This week my guest is

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Speaker 1: Hugh Ran You. How are you. How about you, Margaret?

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Speaker 1: I'm very okay. I'm like grouchy, but that's no one's fault.

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Speaker 1: It's raining. Also, I'm forty something, so I'm grouchy at

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Speaker 1: all time. Oh yeah, excellent. Um, that's an important way

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Speaker 1: to okay. Um. Hugh Ryan, for anyone listening, is an

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Speaker 1: author and historian and on my very short list of

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Speaker 1: historians about queer stuff. I hit up all the time,

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Speaker 1: Like before I started this show, Like the first episode

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Speaker 1: of this show, I basically reached out to Hugh and

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Speaker 1: was like, please explain the history of homosexuality and heterosexuality

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Speaker 1: in the Western world. It's like the most wonderful thing

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Speaker 1: anyone could ever ask me, because usually when I talk

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Speaker 1: at length about that at people, they begged me to stop. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm very excited to have you on. Uh. Sophie is

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Speaker 1: our producer. Hi, Sophie, how are you pie. I'm swell. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you're swell, but also grumpy. Yeah no, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean yeah. This is the the mortal wound of

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Speaker 1: modern civilized life is being both swell and always under

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Speaker 1: attack by capitalism and bad things. Ian is our audio engineer.

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Speaker 1: High Ian Hi Ian, a woman, wrote our theme song. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So I figured we've got one of the best historians

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Speaker 1: about LGBT history and a New York City expert on

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Speaker 1: so why not talk about sixte century Irish politics and piracy?

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Speaker 1: We don't, I think every knows us. We don't tell

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Speaker 1: the guests what we're going to talk about, um, mostly

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Speaker 1: because we don't want them to, like secretly go and

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Speaker 1: research it ahead of you. Don't worry. I wouldn't have.

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Speaker 1: But I'm so excited because I was gonna say, when

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Speaker 1: I first met you, you had recently lived on a boat.

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Speaker 1: But I think that's not true. No, I my my

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Speaker 1: boyfriend at the time lived on a boat and I

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Speaker 1: spent a lot of time on It was a boat

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Speaker 1: that floated but never moved because it was not capable

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Speaker 1: of moving, but it was still I think it does

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Speaker 1: that make it a raft? Like when do you go

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Speaker 1: from being a raft to a boat? I'm not sure.

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Speaker 1: I mean it was boat shaped, and like do rafts

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Speaker 1: have bilge pumps that constantly break and need to get fixed?

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Speaker 1: That actually just brought back, like real traumatic memories. When

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Speaker 1: the bilge pump would break, it would play for allez.

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Speaker 1: So that was the sound that meant I was drowning.

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Speaker 1: And now I can't hear it without thinking of to

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Speaker 1: be got to bed. See, I think that that counts

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Speaker 1: as boat life. Um maybe that's what makes it a

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Speaker 1: boat instead of a ship, right, because if you get

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Speaker 1: on like a ship that goes in the water, people

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Speaker 1: get really mad if you call it a boat. I

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Speaker 1: think I don't know, that's like a pet and thing

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Speaker 1: I've heard. M m, well that's only really tangentially related.

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Speaker 1: There's some boats or ships in today's episode because pirates,

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Speaker 1: they were pirates without ships, this would be really sad episode.

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Speaker 1: So I know i'd based I'd be like, they'd have

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Speaker 1: a go fund me to get themselves a ship. That's true.

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Speaker 1: So today we're going to talk about Grania no wallyam

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Speaker 1: or as her name is anglicized, Grace O'Malley, the Irish

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Speaker 1: pirate queen, the Irish pirate queen. That's right, That is

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Speaker 1: the next sentence that I was going to read. That's

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Speaker 1: also my nickname, but I'm glad she had it first.

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Speaker 1: Excellent there's a lot of hues in today's story. Actually

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Speaker 1: mostly near the end. They all come in at once.

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Speaker 1: It's very strange. I never meet other Hughes because we

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Speaker 1: have to battle to the death like Highlanders, so it's

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Speaker 1: good to hear about them. Oh yeah, yeah, no, it

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Speaker 1: makes sense. You've actually outlived all of these ones so

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Speaker 1: far to my knowledge, unless they're Highlanders, in which guess

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Speaker 1: they're still around. The English state papers, which are the

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Speaker 1: notes that people write down when you have a government.

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Speaker 1: You're just like, here's the stuff that happened today in government.

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Speaker 1: That's what a state paper is, as best I can tell.

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Speaker 1: The English State Papers, which is actually where we get

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Speaker 1: most of our knowledge about her. Ireland kind of wasn't

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Speaker 1: sure what to write about her. Referred to her as

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Speaker 1: the most notorious woman on all the western coasts, a

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Speaker 1: notable traitress, and has been the nurse of all rebellions

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Speaker 1: in the province for forty years, which is pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: I'd be pretty proud to get that on a tombstone day.

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Speaker 1: I know, traitress. I think traitress would fit on your knuckles.

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Speaker 1: I'm not entirely certain how to spell now it's nine letters.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, everyone, I know they got your hopes up

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Speaker 1: about sick knuckle tattoos. She is a messy hero. She

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Speaker 1: might not have been a hero. She might have sucked.

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Speaker 1: No one knows. We know a lot about her life,

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Speaker 1: and we know a lot about the legends that people

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Speaker 1: have built up around her, but we don't actually know

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Speaker 1: her motives, and we don't know which side she was

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Speaker 1: working on for most of the time. Double agent, triple agent.

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Speaker 1: Who knows? Basically she was a sailor, a merchant, a fighter,

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Speaker 1: a gambler, a crime boss, a pirate, a rebel, a

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Speaker 1: devoted mother and grandmother, and almost certainly a spy or

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Speaker 1: probably a spy. But if she was a spy, was

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Speaker 1: she a double agent? Was she? I don't know. She

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Speaker 1: was not a lot of fun. Let's just say that, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

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Speaker 1: So she's a pirate, but she's a hundred years before

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Speaker 1: the quote golden age of piracy, So she's not what

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Speaker 1: many Western listeners will first think of when they imagine

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Speaker 1: the word pirate. She's she's Irish as ship, she's medieval Irish.

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Speaker 1: She's sixteenth century Irish, which needs some explanation. And this

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Speaker 1: is how I work the entire history of Ireland into

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Speaker 1: a podcast. I'm ready to hear it. Boy, howdy, let's

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Speaker 1: do it all right. So I'm starting at the beginning.

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Speaker 1: There's a country called Ireland. You might have heard of it.

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Speaker 1: It's famous for exactly two things. One being colonized, the

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Speaker 1: first country colonized by the British and suffering brutally at

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Speaker 1: their hands time and time again. And of course it's

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Speaker 1: famous for how later these socialist revolutionaries called themselves the

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Speaker 1: Irish Republican Army. But right wing Irish Americans are really

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Speaker 1: dense and are like, yeah, Republicans like us. That's painful.

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Speaker 1: I know. If you would listen, if you ever listen

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Speaker 1: to I ra A songs on YouTube, the comments are

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Speaker 1: just all of these like blue lines skull avatars being like,

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Speaker 1: hell yeah, brother, ah yeah, I grew up singing a

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Speaker 1: lot of the black and you know, come out to

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Speaker 1: black and tans, come out and find us like a man.

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Speaker 1: And then when you hear that in a bar, the

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Speaker 1: people who respond make me go, I think you're thoroughly

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Speaker 1: forgetting the third thing that Ireland is known for. I

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Speaker 1: can't think of anything else that's true. They famously did

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Speaker 1: not have a good time with potatoes. We can fold

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Speaker 1: that under the British colonization though yeah, I could go yeah, yeah. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: the fact that the people who respond when you think,

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Speaker 1: come out your black contents are not necessarily the people

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Speaker 1: you want to be friends with is the main tension

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Speaker 1: I had about whether or not I was going to

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Speaker 1: record this episode, because I think it is really useful

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Speaker 1: for people to understand the history of British colonization and

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Speaker 1: to understand that Ireland was absolutely fucked by the British.

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Speaker 1: But I want to avoid playing into this like weird

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Speaker 1: like therefore white America thing that makes no fucking sense.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting, it's it's a real generational thing,

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Speaker 1: I think to Two of my four grandparents came over

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Speaker 1: from Ireland after um, shall we say, involvement with the

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Speaker 1: resistance against the British. They don't speak about a lot.

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Speaker 1: My grandfather had a bullet in his shoulder that he

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Speaker 1: never really talked about, which actually was probably from the

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Speaker 1: falling apart of the IRA after you know, the devil

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Speaker 1: are after the nies um and so my grandmother who

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Speaker 1: he married, the two of them both emigrated and she

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Speaker 1: had held a gun for the first time against the

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Speaker 1: Black Intention when she was nine, when they came to

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Speaker 1: burn down her village. She ended up being a Republican,

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Speaker 1: you know, many decades later. And then my parents in

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Speaker 1: the American sense, not that in the American sense. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then my parents became fierce democrats, like very democratic

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Speaker 1: unionists and um. And then I am, you know, a

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Speaker 1: sort of queer anarchist. So we see the generations playing

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Speaker 1: out in unexpected ways that that tracks. So we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about the history of Ireland, and we're gonna

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Speaker 1: be talking about sixteenth century island, which is not like England,

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Speaker 1: light like it sort of gets presented like. It has

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Speaker 1: an entirely different system, different cons steps. It's very different socially,

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Speaker 1: and so I want to give us some context because

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Speaker 1: the fact that everyone did everything very differently than England

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Speaker 1: caused most of the tension that caused why we're going

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Speaker 1: to be talking about gran today. Ireland is an island.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you knew that people have lived

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Speaker 1: there for a funk off long time, like maybe during

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Speaker 1: the Ice Age, but people aren't super sure about that.

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Speaker 1: But definitely some folks showed up at around eight thousand

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Speaker 1: b C. They hung out hunting and gathering for about

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Speaker 1: four thousand years, and then they started do a little

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Speaker 1: bit of agriculture and herding. Here and there. They made pottery,

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Speaker 1: they built off really funk off cool tombs, and like

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Speaker 1: all this ship that's like lined up to the stars

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Speaker 1: and all that that great stuff. The most extensive archaeological

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Speaker 1: site of all of this era is in County Mayo,

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Speaker 1: which is in the northwest of Ireland, which is where

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Speaker 1: most of what we're going to talk about is today.

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Speaker 1: That's the only relation it has to that. But I

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Speaker 1: just don't think it's neat. And these these first people,

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Speaker 1: or the second people, possibly they're not the Celts, who

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Speaker 1: are now seen as the major ethnic group of Ireland,

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Speaker 1: or rather the Gaels, the subsection of the Celts. The

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Speaker 1: Celts show up later. And this is really interesting to

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Speaker 1: me because Irish mythology describes that there were six groups

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Speaker 1: of people who settled Ireland and the first three were

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Speaker 1: wiped out and some other descendants became like the gods

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Speaker 1: and ship. I'm not as versed in Irish folklore as

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Speaker 1: I would like to be, but I find it really

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Speaker 1: interesting that these myths, which probably would have just been

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Speaker 1: called history for a very long time, we're like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: a bunch of different groups of people were here and

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Speaker 1: then they all falked off or died or whatever. And

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Speaker 1: then more recent history is like, yeah, there were a

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Speaker 1: bunch of different groups of people here and then they

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Speaker 1: all fucked off or died or whatever. Ireland has a

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Speaker 1: real spiral to that history. Yeah, if you're ever going

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Speaker 1: to get lost in to see a very strong and

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Speaker 1: conflicting opinions, read all of the different theoretical anthropological origins

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Speaker 1: of the settlement of Ireland. But sixth century b c.

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Speaker 1: The Celts show up really slowly. And this is the

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Speaker 1: thing that I think is really cool about Ireland. Most

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Speaker 1: of the time, when people showed up, they're not like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Ireland is ours now. But instead you get something called galicization,

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Speaker 1: where cultures merge rather than replace one another. And there's

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Speaker 1: a really strong exception to this rule that comes later

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Speaker 1: called the British, but prior to that you get galicization.

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Speaker 1: And the creation of the Gals itself was gaalicization. It

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Speaker 1: was probably a merging of Celtic and indigenous Irish culture.

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Speaker 1: And this whole synchronous synchronization thing is not unique to Ireland,

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Speaker 1: but since it's where a lot of my family's from,

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Speaker 1: I've paid more attention to it than some other places.

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Speaker 1: This is how you get classical Ireland. The gaels are there,

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Speaker 1: there are probably druids. You've got a bunch of kings

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Speaker 1: and bards and ship like a lot of kings. This

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Speaker 1: is not a unified country. There's tons of clans famously

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Speaker 1: not getting along great all of the time. Basically it's

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Speaker 1: a place of different warring clans or kingdoms for a

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Speaker 1: very long time. So Rome shows up and it's like

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Speaker 1: Britain is ours now and they didn't bother with Ireland,

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Speaker 1: which they called Hibernia which means winter land. Basically, historians

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Speaker 1: like to argue about this, like why they didn't go

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Speaker 1: funk with Ireland. Historians like to argue period, which is

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Speaker 1: actually kind of cool, Like what I'm talking, we don't argue.

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Speaker 1: I'm a historian. I feel like I feel like this

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Speaker 1: is the thing I really like because at first I'm like,

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Speaker 1: oh God, all of these sources are saying really different things.

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Speaker 1: But then you realize, like that's the point, right, Like

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Speaker 1: people listen to history or science and think, oh, this

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Speaker 1: is the answer science has told me whereas like actual

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Speaker 1: scientists and historians are like, no, no, no, this is

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Speaker 1: our best guest based on the evidence that we currently have,

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Speaker 1: which makes like even like the whole like I don't know,

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Speaker 1: like people revisioning history and all of that ship like

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Speaker 1: more interesting than it seems because it sounds like people

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Speaker 1: are like, are you just rewriting history? It's like no,

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Speaker 1: We're constantly readdressing this like series of facts to try

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Speaker 1: and figure out the best narrative to tie it all together.

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Speaker 1: And there's always new facts. I mean, even just the

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Speaker 1: time it takes to research history. New facts appear in

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Speaker 1: the research that you did at the start of a

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Speaker 1: project is possibly no longer valid at the end. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I did that happen to dude, And when writing one

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Speaker 1: of your books for anyone who hasn't doesn't know he

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Speaker 1: Ryan has a couple of books of New York queer

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Speaker 1: history that rule that happened in certain ways several times

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Speaker 1: for me in particular, like when I was working on

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Speaker 1: this book about the Women's House at Attention, the prison

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Speaker 1: that used to be in Greenwich Village, I would find

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Speaker 1: that there were whole sources which were not accessible, did

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Speaker 1: not seem to exist and then like a year and

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Speaker 1: a half later, I would just type a phrase into

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Speaker 1: Google and it was like an entire archive had emerged

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Speaker 1: from the ocean. Which is I really like that. I

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Speaker 1: really like that. We're like it's so weird that we're

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Speaker 1: getting better at history, Like we're further away from all

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Speaker 1: the stuff, you know, but like the Victorians were so

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Speaker 1: bad at it that I think the thing we're getting

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Speaker 1: better at, maybe at least a little bit, is like

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Speaker 1: sharing it. I think archives always have this real rough problem, right,

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Speaker 1: They're tasked with two diametrically opposite chores. We must preserve

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Speaker 1: these things, and the most dangerous thing that we can

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Speaker 1: do to them is touching them. Right, you also have

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Speaker 1: to make them available to people on the outside who

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Speaker 1: need to touch them. And I think that for a

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Speaker 1: long time, archives swung more towards the preserve and protect

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Speaker 1: and less towards the share to popularize. And I think

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Speaker 1: we're moving in that direction. And I think part it

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Speaker 1: is about digitization and the Internet making it so much

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Speaker 1: easier to do those things that it's really hard to

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Speaker 1: not at least do partially job of it. And now

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Speaker 1: you don't have to have as many people touching this stuff.

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Speaker 1: So oh that's interesting. Okay. So, so Rome shows up.

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Speaker 1: They never conquer Ireland, and whether or not they tried

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Speaker 1: is again a matter of some historical debate. It's possible

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Speaker 1: that there was like a Gaelic chief of king it

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Speaker 1: was like, hell yeah, I will totally sell my people

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Speaker 1: out for power. But mostly they were like, why would

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Speaker 1: we bother with that backwater slum where everyone is filthy

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Speaker 1: and starving and it's fucking cold. We literally named it

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Speaker 1: winter Land? And have you met that? This is again

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Speaker 1: the Roman voice, not my voice. And have you met

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Speaker 1: those filthy Irish people? They're so fighty they how could

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Speaker 1: you rule them? They can't even rule themselves. Or the

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Speaker 1: Roman Empire was too big already and they were busy,

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Speaker 1: too busy conquering in Scotland. And there was nothing so

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Speaker 1: magical and special about the Irish like many people want

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Speaker 1: there to be. Whatever reason Rome doesn't conquer Ireland. Irish warriors, though, uh,

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Speaker 1: they funk up the Romans in Britain all the time,

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Speaker 1: probably not as some like war for liberation, probably more

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Speaker 1: just like hell yeah, let's go like raid and steal

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Speaker 1: some ship. But I think it's a little messier than

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Speaker 1: that because we get what's called Have you ever heard

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Speaker 1: of the Great Conspiracy or the Barbarian Conspiracy of three

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Speaker 1: sixty seven? Okay, so I'm really excited about this. This

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Speaker 1: is some like George armartin ship. Okay, everyone around it's like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, funk these Romans. Let's go funk them up.

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Speaker 1: And if this was just a raid, why would there

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Speaker 1: be this enormous international collaboration. It was huge. You have

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Speaker 1: the Picks from Scotland, you have the Scotty from Ireland.

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Speaker 1: I know, I know, you have the Adakati, who I

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Speaker 1: think we're from around there, but I'm not entirely certain.

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Speaker 1: I think they're mostly Most of the history you can

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Speaker 1: immediately find about them is literally they threw down in

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Speaker 1: this fight. Um So if you want to be remembered

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Speaker 1: as a small group, you should fight an empire. It's

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Speaker 1: not a good way to last a long time, but

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Speaker 1: it's a good way to get remembered. You've got the

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Speaker 1: Saxons from Germania, which is roughly where you think it is,

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Speaker 1: and you've also got a Roman garrison that mutinied and

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Speaker 1: helped it all happen, which was probably local Brits and

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Speaker 1: other groups in the area, not soldiers from Rome, and

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Speaker 1: where was that mutinous garrison? But Hadrian's Wall? Did Adrian's Wall,

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Speaker 1: That's the like end of the whole property of Rome, right,

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Speaker 1: Like they built that wall to be like yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're like, we gotta keep the wildlings out. And it's

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Speaker 1: a twelve ft high, eight to ten ft deep, seventy

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Speaker 1: three mile long stone wall that goes from shore to

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Speaker 1: shore across the middle of fucking I don't want to

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Speaker 1: say England, people will get mad, the bigger island, Great

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Speaker 1: Britain or is that the name of the Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't know. Whatever. So, and it was to keep the Scottish,

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Speaker 1: to keep the Picts out, and it I don't know,

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Speaker 1: imagine building a physical wall as a symbol of separating

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Speaker 1: the good, god fearing civilized people from the impoverished people

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Speaker 1: just across it. This is this is the first in history.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, it is because it's all white plastered too.

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Speaker 1: It took fifteen thousand people six years to build this wall,

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Speaker 1: and it took just one mutinous garrison to let the

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Speaker 1: Picts over and the afore mentioned Great Conspiracy. Meanwhile, everyone else,

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Speaker 1: like the Irish, they land in the south and They're like, hell, yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's sucking do this, raid, pillage, burn, possibly liberate little messy.

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Speaker 1: But the Romans they had this this group of pe

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Speaker 1: bowl who existed to make sure that they would know

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Speaker 1: if the picks were coming. They were called the the

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Speaker 1: Arcani or the Arianni, depending on which literal physical carved

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Speaker 1: into stone source you look at. And they're supposed to

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Speaker 1: report on conspiracies. It's like the Roman FBI of the area, right.

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Speaker 1: They were in on it. They were like, fuck it,

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Speaker 1: we're part of this. Do and people. Maybe they were bribed,

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Speaker 1: maybe they were just like, no, we don't. We don't

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Speaker 1: like the Romans either. So after all of this, when

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Speaker 1: the rebellion gets crushed, Rome is like, we're disbanding. You

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Speaker 1: a secret society called the Arkhani, which means secret or

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Speaker 1: it's a misreading of Arianni, which means people who have

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Speaker 1: sheep um too great possibilities. Yeah, both totally real. They

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Speaker 1: were a secret society and most of them probably had sheep.

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Speaker 1: Yeah they all go away? Or do they? Is there

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Speaker 1: still a Roman secret society of sheep herders in the

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Speaker 1: middle of England? There probably isn't. And the thing about

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Speaker 1: this like huge conspiracy is that this wasn't while Rome

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Speaker 1: was new in England. Rome had been ruling in England

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Speaker 1: since forty three a d. So this is like three

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Speaker 1: twenty years later. That's longer than the US has existed.

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Speaker 1: So when people tend to think that like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, empires and colonizing countries are forever, History says

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Speaker 1: that's not always the case. The Great Conspiracy retook huge

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Speaker 1: chunks of Britain back from Roman rule. They probably showed

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Speaker 1: up and murdered and raped and burned everything down because

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Speaker 1: they were raiders. But also it's a little bit micked

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Speaker 1: because like history is like, oh, this terrible thing happened, right,

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Speaker 1: but everyone who lived there was in on it. Like

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Speaker 1: huge chunks of all the British garrisons were just defecting

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Speaker 1: and abandoning their posts and joining the rebellion. So it's like,

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Speaker 1: I'm a little bit confused by this idea that I

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Speaker 1: was just a ray. I want to read more about

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Speaker 1: this is what I'm trying to say. But it's fucking interesting.

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Speaker 1: Rome rallied. They got after about a year, they got

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Speaker 1: a bunch of people's spears and swords, and they retook Britain,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know. I want to find a book

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Speaker 1: from like the Scottie or picked point of view about

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Speaker 1: all of this stuff, but I'm not aware of it yet. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know of any. So then eventually Rome sort

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Speaker 1: of falls apart. Roman Roman control in Britain ends like

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Speaker 1: less than about a generation or two later. It starts

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Speaker 1: with like Britain de urbanizing, people start growing food inside

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Speaker 1: the cities. Is like seeing as archaeological evidence or anthropological

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Speaker 1: evidence of the de urbanization of Britain, and it kept

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Speaker 1: being beset by barbarian hordes or whatever, and so is

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Speaker 1: Rome itself. And by four oh nine Brittain is free

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Speaker 1: from Roman rule and or it got plunged into the

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Speaker 1: dark ages, depending on who you ask. This isn't a

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Speaker 1: story about Britain. I just think it's cool that the

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Speaker 1: Irish kept sucking up Rome, and Rome never have to

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Speaker 1: funk up the Irish, and this idea the like I

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Speaker 1: think it's important to get a kind of groundwork understanding

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Speaker 1: to medieval Ireland and wasn't conquered by Rome and was

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Speaker 1: seen as backwards barbarians is a big part of that.

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Speaker 1: This idea that Ireland is the here there be monsters

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Speaker 1: like sketchy part of the map is a huge part

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Speaker 1: of everything that happens to Ireland, specifically in terms of

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Speaker 1: how Britain deals with it. It's not entirely true that

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Speaker 1: Rome didn't conquer Ireland because they did it in their

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Speaker 1: Catholic way. A little bit later St. Patrick shows up

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Speaker 1: and there are already a few Christians in Ireland, but

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Speaker 1: not a lot, and soon Ireland goes Catholic, which is

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Speaker 1: really funny to me because in so many ways they're

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Speaker 1: like so Catholic, and they do all this work of

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Speaker 1: like maintaining the Latin language during the early Middle Ages

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Speaker 1: when like everywhere else it was like falling apart or whatever,

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Speaker 1: and they like sent missionaries out all over Europe. But

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Speaker 1: they also like just didn't give up their pagan beliefs.

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Speaker 1: Their mythology is just running to everything. They're religious in

395
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Speaker 1: marriage rights and they're like secession rights and what it

396
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 1: means to be king that we're gonna get to in

397
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:11,879
Speaker 1: a little bit is just not Catholic. My family was

398
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Speaker 1: super Catholic, supercoolic. My grandmother, my grandparents, you know, church

399
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Speaker 1: multiple times a week when I was little, and yet

400
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Speaker 1: still we were constantly like you're traveling, pray to St. Christopher,

401
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 1: your you know something's lost, pray to St. Anthony. It's

402
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Speaker 1: like a whole pagan theology and worship tacked onto different saints. Yep, exactly.

403
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Speaker 1: And there's even at this point we're gonna get into

404
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Speaker 1: this a little bit more, there's um, this Catholic country

405
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Speaker 1: has divorce that women can initiate. It has concubines, it

406
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Speaker 1: has um like trial marriages, it has uh in order

407
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Speaker 1: to become king. You literally like fuck the land like

408
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Speaker 1: you like? Um, Yeah, No, it's it's interesting as hell. Yeah,

409
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Speaker 1: Brand being the pre it's the Celtic legal system that

410
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Speaker 1: English law kind of tried to supplanted. And actually the

411
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Speaker 1: story we're gonna talk about today is when Brand law

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Speaker 1: and English law get into a fight, with lots of

413
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Speaker 1: people fighting on both sides. So Ireland, the Vikings show

414
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Speaker 1: up in eight hundreds, they start rating, they formed the

415
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Speaker 1: city of Dublin, They get the slave trade up and going.

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Speaker 1: The Vikings actually kind of suck. Dublin was a major

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Speaker 1: slave capital in the region. People get stolen from all

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Speaker 1: around the aisles in nineteen o sorry, not nineteen o two,

419
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Speaker 1: nine oh, two thousand years earlier than what I usually

420
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Speaker 1: talked about on this show. Some cool people got together

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Speaker 1: and sucked them up. We took Dublin. They lost again

422
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Speaker 1: in nine seventeen, then again in nine eighty the Irish

423
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Speaker 1: fucked up the Vikings again in the Battle of Tera,

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00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: and then the Vikings got it back again, and then

425
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 1: in ten fourteen you've got Ireland's High King going to

426
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: war and sucking them up. And High King is sort

427
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,439
Speaker 1: of a it's not like a joke, but it's not.

428
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 1: It's not some like, oh yeah, that guy's in charge.

429
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: Everyone totally listens to that guy. But instead, so in

430
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,719
Speaker 1: order to be king at this point in Ireland, you

431
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: have to you have to fuck a sovereignty goddess or

432
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 1: marry a sovereignty goddess, which is the representation of the land.

433
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: There's no kill option, just sucking marry. Yeah, well we'll

434
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: get Actually it's funny because there's gonna be a Mary

435
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 1: Kill reference later. But yeah, you've gotta like you've got

436
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: to like symbolically marry the land that you're going to rule,

437
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 1: because basically it's still sort of this goddess Earth in

438
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 1: a lot of ways that you are just caring for

439
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 1: and it gets embodied in a lot of different ways,

440
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: like fucking people, or in one case in this Catholic country,

441
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 1: in order to be named king, you fuck a horse

442
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: and then you kill the horse, and then you cook

443
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: the horse into a broth, and then you bathe in

444
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,399
Speaker 1: the broth made out of the dead horse that you

445
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 1: fucked and killed, and then everyone drinks the broth of

446
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,199
Speaker 1: the horse that you based in the blood of the

447
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 1: hole in the bottom of the sea in the bucket,

448
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 1: which is a very Catholic thing. It does not Catholic,

449
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 1: it's just taken. We should move back to that system.

450
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: You know, any of our presidential candidates were willing to

451
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: fuck a horse, maybe I'll vote for them. Actually, that's

452
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 1: a why all of them would do it. There, I

453
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 1: was going to say, I feel like there's several horsefuckers

454
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 1: that have already been president. Yeah, Well, do you know

455
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 1: who else wants you to have sex with? Yeah, become king.

456
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 1: I feel like some of the ads probably want you

457
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: to feel like you're king. Probably, uh ads, here's some

458
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: ads for stuff and we're back. So the High King

459
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: of Ireland Brian Boru. At this point, it's like, you

460
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: call yourself the High King of Ireland and it's like

461
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,239
Speaker 1: an actual title. There's like only one of them. At

462
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 1: a gative point, you don't actually no one listens to you.

463
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 1: You're like, I'm the high King. Everyone's like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

464
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 1: I prove it. But in this particular case, he was

465
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 1: able to use that in order to get enough people

466
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 1: together that on April fourteen, he got his armies together

467
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: and he attacked the Vikings. And there's a bunch of

468
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: different ways that people look at all of us. Of course,

469
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 1: you can basically look at it being like the Irish

470
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 1: got together and kicked out the Vikings, which is like

471
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: the most patriotic and easy way to look at it.

472
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: But then there's also like one Irish guy went to

473
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 1: war against another Irish guy who had more Vikings on

474
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 1: his side than the other guy. And actually it's go ahead. Oh,

475
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say I I was in Ireland

476
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: like twenty five years ago visiting this monastery at Clon

477
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 1: mcnoy's kind of beautiful and ruined, and it's right on

478
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: the water, and you sort of walk all around and

479
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 1: like this is gorgeous. What happened? And they give you

480
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: a tour and in the tour they're like you know,

481
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: the the Irish monks who did so much to preserve Latin,

482
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: like you said, and the medieval texts, and you know,

483
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: this was a site of learning and intelligence which was

484
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: sacked by the Vikings some you know, half dozen times.

485
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: And then the tour guide like sort of pauses for

486
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 1: a moment and says, and it was also sacked by

487
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: the Irish like eight or ten other times. It's really

488
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,199
Speaker 1: easy to be like. And then all the Irish just

489
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: wanted to get along with each other, like, no, they're

490
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 1: just people, that's the problem. We we people are just people. Um.

491
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: But in this particular case, they want the Vikings gone,

492
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: and so they get together a whole ton of people

493
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 1: in the Battle of Clontarf, and the Vikings had male

494
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 1: armor and the Irish were like poor as fuck and

495
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: we're like running around with spears and ship but they fought.

496
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 1: And Brian more than seventy years old, this high king,

497
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: he's there with the warriors. He died when the enemy

498
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 1: stormed his camp and killed him while he was praying.

499
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: His son died in the fighting, and so did his nephew,

500
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: and so did his fifteen year old grandkid. So three generations.

501
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: You can at least say that these particular kings weren't

502
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: sit at the back type, and they they won even

503
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 1: though their leader, their leader's kid, their leader's grandkid all

504
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: died in the fighting. The grandkid died drowning while chasing

505
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: after them in boats or something. They is this the

506
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 1: war where all the kids fought like the red branch?

507
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: Is that this repressed memories of Irish folklore and history

508
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 1: that were drilled into me between the ages of like

509
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 1: zero and sixteen, and like little bits of every story

510
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: sound familiar, but it's all just a big mush. There

511
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 1: was a war approximately every fifteen years at this point,

512
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: as far as I can tell, Like later when we

513
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: get to the English. The so the Irish rebellions against

514
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: the English. Most of the time you hear about like

515
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: rebellions like once a generation or whatever. Sixteenth century Ireland

516
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: was like every fucking five to ten years, like one

517
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: rebellion is down and another one crops up. So I

518
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: don't know, I'm not I'm not aware of this being

519
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: that story. But they won. This is what theoretically broke

520
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: the power of the Vikings in Ireland more or less

521
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: for good, although they did still manage to have some

522
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: power in Dublin and still do some slave trading, and

523
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: I want to know more about it. And one reason

524
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: I want to know more about it is that my

525
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: family name, actually my Irish family name, comes from the

526
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: brother of the high king. So I'm like, I I'm

527
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: not trying to be I don't know. I just think

528
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: it's cool the Irish kill joys. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um,

529
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: that's what ever, because I don't talk about my family

530
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: name very much publicly, you know, And uh yeah, so

531
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: that's the anglicization, That's what I'll claim. So Ireland had

532
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: a high king after that, and his power was constantly challenged.

533
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: He wasn't really much of a high king at all, um,

534
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: even though he'd like married and sucked the whole country

535
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: or whatever. You know. One guy, he's a regular king,

536
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: not a high king. His name is Diermitt Macmurkdam and

537
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: he gets exiled to what's now France and he's like,

538
00:29:58,000 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: fuck it, I'm going to get some Normans together and

539
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: invade Ireland. Norman's being a Newish group of French folks

540
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: that were mix of French and Norse because of a

541
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: Viking dude named Rollo who's in the TV show Vikings

542
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: had set up shop in Normandy, so the Normans invade.

543
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: In eleven sixties seven they conquered the east coast of Ireland. This,

544
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: somehow confusingly meant the English king gets to claim Ireland.

545
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: The fucking monarchy is the most nonsensical system that anyone

546
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: has ever come up with. The Irish they're not really

547
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: excited about this. I don't know if you knew that.

548
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: They don't really love being one country. That's kind of

549
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: part of their thing at this point, but they really

550
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: don't love being someone else's country. So they throw down.

551
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: Over the course of hundreds of years, and by twelve

552
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: sixty one you've got Irish armies sucking up all the

553
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: Norman armies and slowly they take the island back from

554
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: the British. And then you get the Black Death and

555
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: even like do any like medieval reading, and then the

556
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: Black Death just like comes in and shuffles all the

557
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: pieces around, and then just sometimes good things happen, sometimes

558
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: bad things happen. Obviously it's bad for the people who

559
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: were directly living through it, but it like, oh, I

560
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: don't know, changed property, property relationships and class structure in

561
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: all of Europe. When the third of the people died

562
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: or whatever. It's like that quote from Game of Thrones,

563
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: chaos is a ladder. Yeah, yeah, And so the Black

564
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: Death comes and the thing is the Normans in the

565
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: British they live in like they live near each other,

566
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: and the Irish they're like walking around like not near

567
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: each other. So the English and the Normans die and

568
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: the Irish don't. I mean, the Irish die too, but

569
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: not in the same kind of numbers. So you're telling

570
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: me social distancing works. Yes, Social distancing is what gave

571
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: Ireland back to all of you weird right wing Americans

572
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: who are really into Irish pride. Social distancing is how

573
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: Ireland got itself back from England. So distancing and horse

574
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: fucking you heard it here, that's right, that's right. So

575
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: they started getting to speak Irish again. And so the

576
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: Normans who didn't live near Dublin in general at this

577
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: point are galicizing and they become kind of Irish instead

578
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: of forcing the Irish become Norman. Although you've got this

579
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: class divide, that's divide building between the Hiberio Norman and

580
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: the Gaels. And all that England controlled was a little

581
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 1: area around Dublin called the pale, which is where the

582
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: phrase beyond the pale comes from. If something is beyond

583
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: the pale, it means it is beyond imagining, like that terrible,

584
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: scary barbarian place of Ireland. A sixteenth century priest named

585
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: Francisco Chacata toward Ireland and had this to say about it,

586
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: which is probably an exaggeration, but it's not quite as

587
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: much of one as you think. He said. Irish people

588
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 1: are very religious, but do not regard stealing as sinful,

589
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: nor is it punished as a crime. They hold that

590
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: we foreigners are uncivilized because we keep the gifts of

591
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: fortune to ourselves, while they live naturally, believing all things

592
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: should be held in common. This accounts for the number

593
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: of thieves. You are in peril of being robbed or

594
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: killed if you travel the country without a strong bodyguard.

595
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: I have heard that in places further north people are

596
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: even more uncivilized, going about nude, living in caves and

597
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: eating raw meat and so largely this just sounds like

598
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: people like talking trash. But it, I mean, one, nothing

599
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: in there is actually inherently bad. You know, maybe cook

600
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: your meat, just just throw that out there. But okay,

601
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: as for holding everything in common, they did, and they

602
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: didn't by a modern they weren't like socialist or communist

603
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: or something about it, right, but by English standards they

604
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: absolutely were. Because the king of the clan was in charge,

605
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,959
Speaker 1: but he didn't own the land. He was temporarily married

606
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: to it. He was temporarily in charge. So the clan

607
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: owns the land and he is the steward of it.

608
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: Like in a lot of medieval cultures, there's like this

609
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: kind of constant tension between hierarchy and freedom that's happening

610
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: in that culture. And they're going about nude and living

611
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: in caves. Part I was like, but then I keep

612
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: finding all these references to like the English being like

613
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: I wish they'd build houses. And at another point a

614
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 1: Spanish guy's um fleeing from the English across Ireland and

615
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 1: he tells stories about being like And then I went

616
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 1: and hung out the chapel with a bunch of naked

617
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: ladies who are just sitting hanging out. Yeah, I don't

618
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: kind of chili like, I don't mind like regular public nudity,

619
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: but I do hope they had access to clothes, you know,

620
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: because there are some months where I don't think you

621
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: want to be naked in your cave. No. No, and

622
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 1: and to be clear, I'm not claiming that all medieval

623
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: Irish people lived in caves and were naked, but but yeah, no,

624
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: and and actually there was like sweat lodges and stuff.

625
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: I think that's where he was hanging out with the

626
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: naked people. That part didn't end up in the script,

627
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:53,800
Speaker 1: and now I'm regretting that. So that's the context. So

628
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: you bring us to today's story. M Actually, I'm line

629
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: there's more context. Only forty minutes. I could keep listening

630
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 1: for hours. This is great. I think you should read

631
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 1: more history books. To me, I don't want the end

632
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 1: version of the podcast. I want to hear the whole

633
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 1: like six hour. Your cool, Well, this one almost ended

634
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: up at some point I was like, I actually, yeah,

635
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 1: it came close to this one being a very long episode.

636
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: Sixteenth century Ireland. You've got about sixty different clans. They're

637
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: led by kings. They got called chieftains a lot, which

638
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: is maybe in some ways accurate, but it's always like

639
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 1: that same, like when you're talking about like the uncivilized

640
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 1: people's the words we use kind of matter in terms

641
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: of the the way that people make certain assumptions about

642
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: those people and these kings are not hereditary, and that

643
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 1: was something that took me a while to wrap my

644
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: head around. And I think it's another part that's really

645
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 1: important to understand the difference between medieval Ireland and medieval England.

646
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: Instead of the eldest son becomes king, they practice a

647
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: form of secession called tannistry, in which the king's heir

648
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: is a elected by all of the eligible men, which

649
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 1: is basically all of the males descended from the current

650
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: king's great grandfather or something like that. It slightly different

651
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 1: and slightly at different times, which of course led to

652
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: a lot of war as people fought over secession and

653
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: as part of why Ireland didn't unite. But it also

654
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 1: is like interestingly like democratics a strong word, right, but

655
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:31,320
Speaker 1: like it's different than this random fucking child is ordained

656
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 1: by God. You know, yeah, like keep it in the family.

657
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 1: But we're still going to pick the one that's least

658
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: like offensive. It's it's a little, you know, a bit

659
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,720
Speaker 1: of both. Yeah, like the one who's not like murder John.

660
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I was like, like murder John, he just murders. Actually,

661
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 1: you know what, There's multiple people in here who are up?

662
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 1: That guy were like named like of the war and

663
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: like the Devil's Hook is a major character in today's story.

664
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: That's so big, I know, and nowhere how he got

665
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: is that fucking name? Have you tried saying in Gaelic?

666
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,240
Speaker 1: I'm sure it involves a lot of like sounds, if so,

667
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 1: you know, I I most of the names I do

668
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 1: find the Gaelic version of, but the Devil's Hook I didn't.

669
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 1: So it's actually possible he was just called that by

670
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: the English, but I'm not sure. So there's so much

671
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: fighting happening in Ireland and against English attempts at rule

672
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 1: and within from clan to clan, that a ton of

673
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 1: Scots are like this sounds fun, we want to come.

674
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: So the Scots show up all the time. There's there's

675
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 1: two groups, the main most important one is called the

676
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 1: Gallo Glass, which means young fighting men. Some come over

677
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 1: and stay in Ireland for good, but most come over

678
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,839
Speaker 1: for a quote fighting season between May and October. Every

679
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: year they show up and they fight for basically like

680
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: their clan will have like a sister clan in Ireland

681
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: where every summer they're like time to go help them,

682
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 1: you know, the McDonald's or whatever, and like can head

683
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: over and throw down all summer and then head home

684
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: for something for like the kids to do in the summer.

685
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 1: You know, get him out of the house right exactly,

686
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 1: shed blood in someone else's country, I know, because you know,

687
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is brilliant, Like all these hot

688
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: headed young men. Let's send them over to Ireland. Put

689
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: the funk out, yes, go and bake that country. You go,

690
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,439
Speaker 1: you help our sister clan. Yeah yeah. And they did

691
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 1: get paid, but they did not see themselves as mercenaries.

692
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 1: It was like a clan loyalty um issue. And then

693
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 1: there were Scottish mercenaries on top of that whose loyalty

694
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 1: was bought, and they were called the Red Shanks. A

695
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,800
Speaker 1: lot of battles I read about most of one side

696
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: or the other might be almost entirely Scottish, Like a

697
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: lot of these like huge battles will be like it

698
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 1: will read the numbers and it'll be like it was

699
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: nine gallo glass and you know two hundred cairn, which

700
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 1: is Irish fighters and two horsemen or something. You know.

701
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 1: One of these many many Irish clans was the O'Malley's,

702
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: which is the Anglicization. There were the Omalias, and as

703
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 1: far as I can tell, I'm not great at pronouncing

704
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: pronouncing all of this stuff. They had lands and what's

705
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: now County Mayo, which at the time was called not

706
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 1: the whole county, but the area that they were in.

707
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 1: Their lands were called Owl and it was a kingdom

708
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,800
Speaker 1: that lasted from the eighth century to fifteen seventy six,

709
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: when it was surrendered to the English, when most of

710
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:32,280
Speaker 1: Ireland was surrendered to the English. It was a lowland coast.

711
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 1: Its name translates roughly to territory of the Owls, which

712
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: rules It is rough terrain with treacherous waters and treacherous cliffs.

713
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 1: It is a rough place. And the first reference to

714
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: the country of the Country of Owl is from the

715
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 1: eighteen twelve The record is a slaughter was made of

716
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,919
Speaker 1: the foreigners, the vikings by the men of Owl. Though

717
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,359
Speaker 1: the woll it sounds like Owl. I wonder if that's

718
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: where owl. I usually I look up etymology before it's

719
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,879
Speaker 1: out this episode, but I didn't even think that through

720
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: until I've read it out loud. The next year was

721
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: the only the record was a battle between the men

722
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 1: of Owl and the foreigners in which the men of

723
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: owl were slaughtered. So that's the history of it for

724
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: the next several hundred years is just like this guy

725
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: killed that guy. These people pirated, and in sixteenth century

726
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: a poet wrote about it, being like this is a

727
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: really good place to do guerrilla warfare against the English

728
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 1: from huh um, which wasn't that's not direct quote. The

729
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: walia Is considered themselves true blooded Irish. They had stayed

730
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 1: like less normal sized and anglicized. The West coast in

731
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,439
Speaker 1: general had um and particularly further away from Galway, which

732
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: was a little bit more Anglicized. But we'll talk about that.

733
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: Most of the clans. They didn't funk with the sea

734
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 1: in Ireland, Ireland's and Ireland. But they didn't fun. They

735
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 1: sucked the horse and the land, yes, but not the water. Yes.

736
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: O Walis are built different. They're not afraid to suck

737
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: the ocean in all the classic ways, fishing, trading, salvaging,

738
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: all the that wash up. Since the waters are so

739
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 1: rough around there that people are constantly dying, extorting other

740
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: people who want to use to see robbing people who

741
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 1: don't give in to the extortion thing. You know, piracy,

742
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: they're pirates. That's that's their family business. They're a family

743
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,720
Speaker 1: whose power is built on organized crime, like all power

744
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: in hierarchy and state authority. Other people don't like this

745
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: as much. People from the sort of nearby Galway are like,

746
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 1: you know what, no one from your family is allowed here.

747
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 1: We don't like you. You're robbers. You are not invited

748
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 1: to the part I know and you know who else

749
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 1: wants to rob you. Capitalism in many ways, what we're

750
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: describing is the birth of capitalism, and and now we're

751
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: right in the center of capitalism. And that leads us

752
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 1: to advertising. But we should bring back sometimes this podcast

753
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 1: instead of being sponsored by all this like negative stuff,

754
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 1: we try to be sponsored by really good things. Um.

755
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 1: The most common is we're often sponsored by potatoes, the

756
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,879
Speaker 1: concept of potatoes because they're good. We've been sponsored by

757
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 1: sleeping dogs. We've been sponsored by a good comb And

758
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you have you have any sponsors that

759
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: you would like to to be sponsored by. Sophie Will

760
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 1: whatever you come up with, Sophie's gonna track them down

761
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 1: and get a sponsored by them. I mean, I've got

762
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: to say, since we're talking about Ireland, I think Pete

763
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,280
Speaker 1: Pete is an important part of Ireland's an important product.

764
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: Great smell. It makes your fireplace smell better, it makes

765
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 1: your whiskey smell better, it makes your house smell like shit.

766
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 1: But I love great. We are sponsored by Pete, not

767
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: the person, well, also the person. But if Pete makes Pete,

768
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: I'm okay with it. Pete's Pete would be a great company.

769
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: That's true. Pete and Pete is a show I liked

770
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: a kid. I watched a lot of Pete and Pete,

771
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:57,399
Speaker 1: if I was perhaps too old for it. Anyway, here's

772
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: the Meds. We are back and we're talking about the

773
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,240
Speaker 1: o Walias and they've got a king or a chieftain

774
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: or whatever. His name is black Oak, that's his nickname.

775
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 1: His name is actually Dudar, which gets anglicized as Owen

776
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: classic Owen pipeline. Yeah, but he didn't use a first

777
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: name because when you are the head of a clan,

778
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 1: his first name is the because he's the chief, so

779
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: he's the Wallya. His wife, though she had the best

780
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 1: name ever. Can you guess what her name was? Hello?

781
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 1: Wa Okay, that would have been really good. But no,

782
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: her name is Margaret, but probably her name was Margaret

783
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 1: like Dudar's name was Owen. Her name was probably married,

784
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 1: not entirely sure, in the year fifteen thirty. Dudar, or

785
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 1: rather the and married pad a daughter. They're only legitimate child.

786
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: She had a half brother too, but he wasn't around much.

787
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: Their daughter's name was Grania Amalia or anglicized Grace O'Malley,

788
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 1: which yeah, totally sounds like Grania. Now volume what the

789
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:10,800
Speaker 1: fuck England she was? Yeah, she was raised in a castle.

790
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 1: Her family had five of them. These are not castles,

791
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: like you're immediately thinking of. These are stone towers. Um,

792
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 1: they are, Like, they're not the thing you look at

793
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,879
Speaker 1: and mean like, yeah, dragon lives there. You're like those

794
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: people build things out of stone because they're constantly at war.

795
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 1: They're like yeah, well then, and they're also like two

796
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: to three stories and like one room per floor. They're

797
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,760
Speaker 1: not They're smaller than the average suburban house in America.

798
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 1: These castles. So clearly these when I'm saying that she

799
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,280
Speaker 1: grew up in a privileged life in a sixteenth century

800
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 1: West Coast of Ireland relative but she did. She grew

801
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,439
Speaker 1: up privileged. She learned Latin, she learned how to read

802
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 1: and write, and actually for how barbarous Ireland was a

803
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,800
Speaker 1: higher percentage of Irish people new Latin than English people.

804
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: They use at church obviously, but also they use it

805
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 1: for trade with foreigners, including the English, because a lot

806
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: of people didn't learn English. You learned Latin, Why would

807
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: you learn that other countries language? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Of course,

808
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: the Irish spoke Latin with an accent that boogie British

809
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,439
Speaker 1: people like to complain about all of the time, because

810
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: it was actually kind of a living language in some

811
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 1: ways for Ireland, in a way that it wasn't for

812
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: a lot of places. Grannia learned seafaring young, even though

813
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,760
Speaker 1: girls weren't supposed to. This part is like more legend

814
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 1: than history, but the end result of it, her of

815
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: her learning sea fairing, is absolutely true, so there's no

816
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: particular reason to doubt this story. Her legend name like

817
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: in the same way like Robin Hood's name wasn't Robin

818
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: Hood to his friends, right, But her legend name is

819
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 1: Granny mal or Granna the Bald because when she was little,

820
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 1: her dad was like, sorry, but you can't go sailing

821
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 1: because you're a girl, And she was like, well, why

822
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 1: the funk not? And he was like, because your hair

823
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: will get caught in the ropes, and so she shaved

824
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 1: her head, which rules, and she pushed her dad started

825
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,359
Speaker 1: taking around sailing and you know, being beset by other

826
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:09,879
Speaker 1: ships and be setting other ships. So she grows up

827
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: learning to sail and fight and cuss and gamble and

828
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 1: all this ship before she turns like fifteen mm. If

829
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: she'd been a generation younger, she would have lived a

830
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 1: really different life. For hundreds of years. England was like, oh, yeah,

831
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 1: we totally own Ireland. But they didn't do anything about it,

832
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 1: because why would you. The Irish people are scary, so

833
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 1: they just had the pale. But Henry the Eighth, he's

834
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:39,399
Speaker 1: he's not my favorite person who's ever lived. I don't

835
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 1: know if you knew this. Um He was like, I

836
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 1: wonder if we can go over there and rob everyone

837
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: and steal all the things from the monasteries and stuff,

838
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 1: which is the part that people don't talk about a

839
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 1: lot with the like anti Catholic thing from the Anglican

840
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 1: Church did like, there's lots of reasons to be mad

841
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 1: at the Catholic Church when you're England, but a lot

842
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:57,800
Speaker 1: of it was like they got so much stuff we

843
00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 1: could totally rob them, which, to be fair, is also

844
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: a groctian and everyone else is doing too. But it

845
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 1: was kind of like the most common pastime I think

846
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 1: of the rich then and now. Yeah, yeah, totally, it's

847
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: how you get rich. So more accurately, he didn't just

848
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 1: go over there to rob everyone. The guy in charge

849
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 1: of the pale rebelled and Henry was like, nah, fuck

850
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: you and kill the ship out of him, even though

851
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 1: the dude surrendered. Um, and that's going to set up

852
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 1: a lot about what happens in Ireland for a while

853
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 1: you rebel. They're like, if you surrender, will play nice,

854
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: and you're like okay, and then they murder you. Anyway,

855
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 1: Henry the Eighth was like, fuck it, I'm taking Ireland.

856
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:39,840
Speaker 1: This was one grand is eleven and the basic idea

857
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 1: was to replace claned fealty with crown feudalism. More importantly,

858
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 1: people weren't allowed to act Irish anymore. No more speaking Irish.

859
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,359
Speaker 1: There's a new law you have to raise your kids

860
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: speaking English. There's also lots of fashion advice from Henry

861
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:57,280
Speaker 1: the Eighth, And when Henry the Eighth gives you fashion advice,

862
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 1: it means we're gonna murder you if you don't do

863
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: the following. I'm quoting from Judith Cook's book The Pirate Queen,

864
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 1: which is the main biography. A lot of the stuff

865
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 1: about Grania comes from that I was able to find

866
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:12,280
Speaker 1: about Grannia comes from and in this book. In this section,

867
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: she's quoting and paraphrasing the law fifty one from Henry

868
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 1: the Eighth. No person or persons shall be shorn or

869
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 1: shaven about the ears, or use the wearing of hair

870
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 1: on their heads, like onto long locks called glibes, or

871
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:30,280
Speaker 1: have or use any hair growing on pond their upper lips,

872
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 1: called or named a crommeal, or use or wear any shirts, smock, kerchief,

873
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 1: or linen cap colored or dyed with saffron, Nor yet

874
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 1: use or wear in any of their shirts or smocks

875
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 1: above seven yards of cloth to be measured according to

876
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 1: the King's standard. No woman must wear or use any

877
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 1: any kertil or coat tucked up or embroidered or garnished

878
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 1: with silk, not couched nor laid with ornaments. In the

879
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: Irish fashion, no person or persons were to use or

880
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: wear any mantles, coat or hoods made after the Irish fashion.

881
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 1: I think it's so funny. We spend so much time,

882
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 1: you know, dissing on fashion and dismissing fashion, But as

883
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 1: soon as anyone colonizes your country, like the first thing

884
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 1: they do is like, we're gonna ban your language, ban

885
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 1: your religion, and make you stop dressing like fucking foreigners. Yeah, totally,

886
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:26,240
Speaker 1: it's not a it's not a side part of colonization,

887
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 1: you know. And there's so much in even these like

888
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: specifics like uh to the last part, no use any

889
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 1: mantle coats or hoods made after the Irish fashion, Like

890
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: I'm not entirely certain. Um, I know some of it

891
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: was like conical hoods and stuff like that, but the

892
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 1: Irish cloak at the time was not It was a blanket.

893
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 1: It was a big, huge chunk of wool that you

894
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 1: fold up a certain way and pin over yourself. And

895
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 1: it is a thing that you can do when you

896
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,320
Speaker 1: are poor and it is cold there, as we've discussed

897
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: in Hibernia. So telling people that they can't have that

898
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 1: fucking sucks and then to go into more of it.

899
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,479
Speaker 1: Saffron dyes things yellow, so the banded Irish fashion color

900
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 1: was yellow, not green, which I just think is I mean,

901
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting everyone to wear green back then. But

902
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: it's just you know, the lepre cons didn't come until

903
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 1: the eighteenth century. Yeah yeah. Second, crommeal means mustache. The

904
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 1: English really hated mustaches. They didn't have the word mustache yet.

905
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 1: That comes about five sorry, fifty years later they get

906
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 1: the word mustache in English. There just wasn't a word

907
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,879
Speaker 1: in English for the hair on your upper lip. They

908
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 1: like they referred to it as like, I don't know,

909
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: the hair on your upper lip mouth beard. They have

910
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 1: a word for like beard. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so

911
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 1: they referred to it as like the beard of the

912
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 1: upper lips sometimes. And they're like this is why they

913
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 1: have to invade everywhere. They don't know anything. They gotta

914
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: go find it somewhere else. Goofy, you know, they're like,

915
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 1: we need word for this. Let's go back to some

916
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 1: people up okay. And then the haircuts. A glibe is

917
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:11,320
Speaker 1: a is a haircut. It's it's really fucking cool haircut.

918
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 1: It's short in the back and long in the front

919
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,839
Speaker 1: with a fringe that covers your eyes and like like

920
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 1: long in the front is like kind of like two

921
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 1: like bangs that just sort of cover your eyes. It's

922
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: kind of like a Chelsea And there's some illustrations at

923
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 1: the time of Irish peasant soldiers who have glibes. And

924
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 1: then of course there's some sources that or rather there's

925
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,799
Speaker 1: some unsourced claims that the globe was like matted in

926
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 1: the front and there I believe there were a lot

927
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 1: of different like peasant cultures that would have matted hair,

928
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: not in like careful separated out locks, but just one

929
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:50,799
Speaker 1: big matted fringe. But I don't know the illustration that

930
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 1: I found that it does not look madded to me.

931
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 1: And then the thing about getting to an argument with

932
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 1: those and you're talking about the Blue Lives Matter Irish,

933
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,799
Speaker 1: have you ever run into the I can have dreadlocks

934
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 1: because my great great great great great great great great

935
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: Irish grandfad Yeah, sister had dreadlocks. Yeah, that's where these

936
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: unsourced things come from. And there's no evidence that if

937
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: they had madd at hair, it was locked. You know,

938
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: there's that like polish plate like mona dread thing that

939
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 1: some peasants had in Europe. But yeah, the other haircut

940
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 1: also ruled, and it was just a cross punk haircut.

941
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 1: It was a fucking power mullet it was. The thing

942
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:38,240
Speaker 1: about having hair shaven around the ears was probably related

943
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 1: to the cool on, which is an Irish haircut that

944
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 1: where most of the front is shaved in the back

945
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 1: has grown really long. I'll try that, yeah, yeah, no,

946
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I would, I would go for that.

947
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,759
Speaker 1: And I think this is extra cool because you're too

948
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: cool haircuts that you can now have to break the law.

949
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 1: You have to pick between long in the front, short

950
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:02,320
Speaker 1: in the back, or short in the front long in

951
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 1: the back. The British really believed in the equality of

952
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 1: hair length ything else and his culture war should have

953
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:12,840
Speaker 1: been going on and sent for centuries in Ireland in

954
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:16,360
Speaker 1: order to prevent Norman's from becoming coolest Irish people because

955
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 1: like a lot of people wanted to galicize, why wouldn't

956
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 1: you is where you fucking live double and passed a

957
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 1: bunch of laws preventing Normans from adopting Irish fashion. Part

958
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 1: of the reason for that was because if you kill

959
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 1: an Englishman or a Norman, that's a capital offense. That's

960
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 1: a big deal, right. You shouldn't go around killing people

961
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,799
Speaker 1: by people, I mean English people, But if you kill

962
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 1: an Irishman or an Irish person, you have to pay

963
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: a fine. And the problem was, now all these English

964
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 1: people look like Irish people, so you think it's totally

965
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:53,280
Speaker 1: fine to kill them, but then you're in big trouble

966
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 1: and that's just not fair. They just need to make

967
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:58,799
Speaker 1: the Irish start wearing targets on their stomachs, you know.

968
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 1: So it was obvious, Yeah, exactly. And I just think

969
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:04,759
Speaker 1: there's like some star belly sneeches ship going on in

970
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:10,240
Speaker 1: this where it's like, because like it from a modern context,

971
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 1: this is like white on white racism or whatever. Right,

972
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,799
Speaker 1: it's not racism, but it's an ethnic hatred, but it's

973
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:19,840
Speaker 1: an ethnic hatred between people who are like physiologically not

974
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 1: particularly distinct. Yeah, so you need other ships. Yeah, it's

975
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 1: before like whiteness was consolidated in a certain sort of way,

976
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:33,240
Speaker 1: but they still thought of each other as not fully human,

977
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 1: you know, right, And there's a bunch of stuff that

978
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 1: like later the medieval English are going through and they

979
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:45,359
Speaker 1: literally refer to like women and children as prey as

980
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 1: they're like going off to go put down rebellions and

981
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 1: ship um, like just literally using the same languages that

982
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 1: they use for animals. And we have vermin all the

983
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 1: time they refer to the Irish as all of that

984
00:54:55,520 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 1: sort of dehumanizing language of genocide and colonization. And there's

985
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 1: also political ship happening. The king wanted everyone to drop

986
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:06,719
Speaker 1: the O from their clan names or the mac from

987
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:10,760
Speaker 1: their clan names. Oh means male, descendant of Mac means

988
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 1: son of girls would be instead of Oh, but the

989
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 1: clan names would use the masculine. And more importantly, he

990
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 1: started pushing what was called surrender and re grant, which

991
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 1: is he wanted all the clans to surrender to him.

992
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 1: In exchange, he would give them their own land back

993
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 1: with a proper English title and bring them into English feudalism.

994
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 1: They'd have to stop practicing tannistry no more. The men

995
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: owned the land in common and vote for who runs it,

996
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 1: just regular feudalism. And they wanted everyone to stop practicing

997
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: Irish ways of living, which is largely pastoralist rather than agricultural.

998
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 1: At this point, people weren't sitting around growing potatoes. Not yet.

999
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 1: That actually had to do with a lot with the

1000
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 1: fact that all their land got dispossessed. A lot of

1001
00:55:57,000 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 1: people were like kind of just hanging out with their livestock,

1002
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: and I think some of the who are people were

1003
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 1: like literally just wandering around with their livestock. Your family

1004
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,840
Speaker 1: would have like a cow and then you would just

1005
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 1: drink the milk from that cow, and that's how you

1006
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:13,280
Speaker 1: stay alive. And there's this whole part in these laws

1007
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 1: that are like plus you have to build houses. And

1008
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:20,279
Speaker 1: again someone who isn't me know slightly more about what

1009
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 1: that means. And I don't want to conjecture too hard.

1010
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 1: English hate caves. Yeah, yeah, and it was one of

1011
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 1: the demands that the that they made and I don't know,

1012
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:33,280
Speaker 1: so the English were like, gross, some food, build some houses,

1013
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 1: you useless Irish degenerates. And that's where we're gonna leave

1014
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:40,919
Speaker 1: it today. When we come back on Wednesday, we're gonna

1015
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 1: talk about pirates and rebels and spies. But I want

1016
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 1: to I want to talk about one thing unrelated to

1017
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 1: any of this really quickly, because of something that happened

1018
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:52,240
Speaker 1: yesterday in the real world. I guess all this happened

1019
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 1: in the real world too, but hundreds of years ago

1020
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 1: yesterday as we record this last Wednesday for for those

1021
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:00,799
Speaker 1: of you listening when this drops and old news for

1022
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 1: everyone else who's listening in the far future, as I'm

1023
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:05,760
Speaker 1: sure a lot of you are aware. There's been active

1024
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 1: and lively protests happening in Atlanta right now trying to

1025
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 1: stop the police from building a training facility through destroying

1026
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 1: a forest, and there are protests against all of this,

1027
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 1: and they tied together environmentalism, environmental racism, and police violence

1028
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 1: and living up to the concept of police violence. The

1029
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 1: police killed a protester yesterday, which is last Wednesday, as

1030
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 1: this release is released, and you there in the future,

1031
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:29,440
Speaker 1: you already know more about what happened than we do

1032
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 1: as we're saying this, But the police are already putting

1033
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 1: out their narrative about what happened, and any cursory look

1034
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:37,240
Speaker 1: at recent range in history tells us there's literally no

1035
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 1: reason to trust anything that the police have said after

1036
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 1: they've killed somebody. So whatever happened that morning, I think

1037
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 1: it's important to remember this person as a as a

1038
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 1: whole person who had a whole life. So I just

1039
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 1: want to say that the person they killed was named

1040
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 1: Tortuguita or tort and he was a twenty six year

1041
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 1: old non binary indigenous anarchist from folks who knew them.

1042
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 1: I didn't have the pleasure they split their time between Atlanta,

1043
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 1: where they worked to defend the forest and organize mutual

1044
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 1: aid programs, and Florida, where they helped build housing for

1045
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 1: low income communities that had been hit hard by recent hurricanes.

1046
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 1: They worked as a medic with the Atlanta Resistance Medics.

1047
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 1: They were vegan, they loved music, and they took inspiration

1048
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 1: from the Zapatistas. So whatever happened, they were a person.

1049
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 1: They were a whole person, and they had their own

1050
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 1: life and their own interests in their own loves. And

1051
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 1: they were killed by the police while working to stop

1052
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 1: a facility the police will use to train more how

1053
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: to do more violence to more people. That's my aside.

1054
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 1: I think if it's pretty closely into any story about

1055
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 1: the Irish resisting British colonization, that feels like a a piece,

1056
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 1: you know, it's an aside and a continuation all unfortunately

1057
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 1: at the same time. Now that's that's true. That's one

1058
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 1: of the reasons why I think. It's why I read

1059
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:59,360
Speaker 1: about Irish colonization as the first modern Western colonization project

1060
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 1: um and of course many of the people who suffered

1061
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 1: from it are now part of that same empire. But

1062
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 1: let's talk about you you Ryan here at the end, Yeah,

1063
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:15,640
Speaker 1: who are you? What if people like stuff that you

1064
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 1: might like and want to read about it books? Yeah,

1065
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:23,600
Speaker 1: what books have you written? Right though? You said like

1066
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:25,440
Speaker 1: what do you like and what might people like to

1067
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:27,520
Speaker 1: read about it? And I was like, what do I like?

1068
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 1: I write mostly about queer history, mostly like New York

1069
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 1: City and American queer history too, mostly not entirely. But

1070
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 1: I think that really the subject that I'm always kind

1071
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:47,040
Speaker 1: of interested in is not this sort of like I

1072
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 1: don't know, petting Zoo of history where it's like, look

1073
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 1: a lesbian in the fourth century. Look, you know that

1074
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 1: this kind of like um universal idea of sex and

1075
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 1: sexuality as being something that we can apply from now

1076
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 1: into the past. It's a perfectly fine mode. It's just

1077
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 1: not the mode I work. And I'm really interested in

1078
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 1: the ways in which our ideas about what it means

1079
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:09,720
Speaker 1: to be a certain kind of sexuality, or that sexuality

1080
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:11,960
Speaker 1: even is a thing separate from gender, that we can

1081
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 1: even talk about. How do those ideas developed developed, and

1082
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 1: how do they spread and how can we watch that

1083
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:21,600
Speaker 1: happen through the history that is in our country or

1084
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 1: our city. So I really focus on New York city.

1085
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:26,760
Speaker 1: So my work looks at the queer history of Brooklyn.

1086
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:28,920
Speaker 1: My first book was When Brooklyn Was Queer, or it

1087
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 1: looks at a prison in twentieth century Greenwich Village. My

1088
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: new book Women's House of Detention, and really sort of

1089
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:41,160
Speaker 1: asks how does sexuality and gender change over the course

1090
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 1: of those times, through these institutions, through urban studies, through

1091
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 1: the way people interact in space in cities, to produce

1092
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 1: even the way we think about sexuality at all. Honestly,

1093
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:56,680
Speaker 1: you talking about that thing about not just going back

1094
01:00:56,680 --> 01:01:00,040
Speaker 1: in the past and being like and this is a

1095
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:02,480
Speaker 1: trans person and all the ways we understand it now

1096
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:05,800
Speaker 1: and they just happened to live in eight seventeenth century

1097
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 1: North America or whatever. The way that you challenge that

1098
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 1: is like one of the reasons I reached out to you.

1099
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 1: And um, so I just say that anyone who wants

1100
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 1: to should should read huge stuff. I don't know if

1101
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 1: you like history, people who are listening to this podcast,

1102
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 1: but if you like cool things, though things, you should

1103
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:25,760
Speaker 1: read my stuff. Yeah. Yeah, but I think it's true

1104
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 1: we all the time look at the past like they're

1105
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 1: like stupid versions of ourselves, you know, like, oh, they're

1106
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:32,480
Speaker 1: exactly like us, they just didn't have this word yet

1107
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:40,040
Speaker 1: because they were moron except mustache referred to like old

1108
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 1: British people as mustaches. No, no, I didn't mean to

1109
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 1: derail you though, No, but it's it's you know, we

1110
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:48,400
Speaker 1: just think, oh god, they just didn't have this word.

1111
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 1: But obviously all of our concepts are exactly the same.

1112
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 1: Nothing has ever changed, and particularly with sexuality and gender

1113
01:01:57,120 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 1: identity and queerness, because I think in American context will

1114
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:02,960
Speaker 1: talk specifically, though I think this is applicable, you know,

1115
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:05,440
Speaker 1: throughout the kind of Western world. But we have this

1116
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:08,080
Speaker 1: period in the mid twentieth century where like the culture

1117
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 1: was absolutely cracked down on and hidden and repressed and

1118
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:16,280
Speaker 1: suppressed and destroyed. And I think because of that, many

1119
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 1: people who grew up and we're adults in the seventies, eighties,

1120
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:22,160
Speaker 1: and nineties, when this kind of first period of modern

1121
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:26,240
Speaker 1: queer history is happening, it was instinctive to kind of say, well,

1122
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:28,680
Speaker 1: we were destroyed and hidden in these periods, so I

1123
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 1: can look back further and I'm gonna find us everywhere,

1124
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 1: because that's what it just happened, right. Homophobia teaches us

1125
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 1: that queer people were hidden and suppressed and so then

1126
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:43,200
Speaker 1: we take what we learned from homophobia and transphobia from

1127
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:45,800
Speaker 1: the people who hated us, and we applied to history

1128
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:47,800
Speaker 1: and we say, well, they must be exactly like us.

1129
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:49,360
Speaker 1: And they were hidden all the time, they were suppressed.

1130
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 1: They were suppressed so badly they didn't even have a

1131
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:53,080
Speaker 1: word for it, right, And I think that's one of

1132
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 1: those insidious ways in which homophobia has taught us to

1133
01:02:56,960 --> 01:02:59,439
Speaker 1: think something that is not true at all, and taught

1134
01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:02,520
Speaker 1: us to think, in fact, something that is not progressive

1135
01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:05,000
Speaker 1: is progressive. Right, that we can look back and always

1136
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:07,960
Speaker 1: see ourselves that sexuality is unchanging and in fact stands

1137
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:11,160
Speaker 1: outside of time, which means outside of culture, which means

1138
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:14,440
Speaker 1: it is natural. And I will go to my grave

1139
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 1: de naturalizing basically everything humans do, particularly sex, sexuality, and gender.

1140
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:23,240
Speaker 1: There's not a lot of naturalness or everything we do

1141
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: is natural. It's one or the other, there's no one between.

1142
01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 1: But our take on history when it comes to sexuality

1143
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:31,080
Speaker 1: is often just an attempt to say, like, gay people

1144
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:33,920
Speaker 1: have always existed exactly as they have existed, and the

1145
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:36,760
Speaker 1: borders between what it means to be gay and trans

1146
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 1: are the exact same thing, and they've always existed when

1147
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 1: those things have barely existed over the course of my

1148
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:45,840
Speaker 1: lifetime in certain places in the US. Now that I

1149
01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:48,880
Speaker 1: mean one of the things that I realized by reading

1150
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:50,800
Speaker 1: so much history and also just being obsessed with medieval

1151
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:52,800
Speaker 1: ship even though it's funny because I feel like most

1152
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:55,920
Speaker 1: of these episodes are less medieval and more eighteen nineteenth century.

1153
01:03:56,440 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 1: I guess because of when most of the political movements

1154
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:02,480
Speaker 1: that are currently reflected in the world, we're doing their thing.

1155
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 1: But it's like, sometimes I look back at what seemed

1156
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:08,040
Speaker 1: to be older understandings of sexuality and gender and see

1157
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 1: myself more easily represented, you know. And so it's like

1158
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 1: and maybe it's because it's like, well, I want to

1159
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:14,400
Speaker 1: be a trans woman as a sword, and so like

1160
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:15,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I am a trans woman as a sword,

1161
01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:18,320
Speaker 1: but it's like a slightly different thing, you know. Um,

1162
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:24,280
Speaker 1: only one sword. Oh no, I have more here. Um,

1163
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:28,440
Speaker 1: here's a bore spear. It was a prop for a

1164
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:35,160
Speaker 1: recording I did the other day. Um anyway, but no, no,

1165
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:39,880
Speaker 1: And I find it more liberating to realize that everything

1166
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:42,520
Speaker 1: is constantly in flux, and so instead of saying like

1167
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:45,680
Speaker 1: there's this like arrogance we have where being like Oh well,

1168
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:48,320
Speaker 1: this is these are the definitions of transnis and this

1169
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 1: is the scientific truth we have uncovered, you know, as

1170
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 1: compared to being like this is what we are currently

1171
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 1: working with. That is really useful. And I'm not trying

1172
01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:58,880
Speaker 1: to say we should get rid of it, but we

1173
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:02,439
Speaker 1: should look at people in their own context. That's why

1174
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 1: I'm trying to talk about why this lady grew up

1175
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 1: a pirate. Yeah, we gotta understand them in their period

1176
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:12,440
Speaker 1: and what's around them and what makes sense and what

1177
01:05:12,520 --> 01:05:14,400
Speaker 1: I think is really liberating about that for me, Like

1178
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:16,640
Speaker 1: the true reason I actually do all the square history.

1179
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:18,800
Speaker 1: I came to it like everybody else. I didn't know

1180
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:21,000
Speaker 1: any queer people growing up. I had never met an

1181
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:23,440
Speaker 1: outgay person when I came out in the mid nineties,

1182
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:26,600
Speaker 1: and I was desperate for a reflection of myself. Right,

1183
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:29,920
Speaker 1: But that reflection is is something of a lie. Right,

1184
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:33,439
Speaker 1: It's it's it's we're looking at a piece of glass, right,

1185
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:36,520
Speaker 1: it's not a mirror. You don't see yourself. You are

1186
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 1: enabled to see something that's really different from you and

1187
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:42,440
Speaker 1: really far away, and sometimes your reflection actually gets in

1188
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:44,760
Speaker 1: the way of seeing what's really out there. Right, The

1189
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:47,560
Speaker 1: reflection brings us to the glass, but it actually has

1190
01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 1: a barrier to understanding what's on the other side. But

1191
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:52,880
Speaker 1: once we do, once we learn to see into the

1192
01:05:52,920 --> 01:05:55,200
Speaker 1: past and to really say, like, look, these people are

1193
01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 1: working with the same constituent parts, you know, the same

1194
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:01,200
Speaker 1: bodies and desires, and they were constructed things really differently.

1195
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:05,960
Speaker 1: That enables me to imagine a future where everything is

1196
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:08,920
Speaker 1: totally different. Again, I can't see the future, but because

1197
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:10,960
Speaker 1: I can see the past, I know it's going to

1198
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:13,480
Speaker 1: be different. There is no way, there is nothing in

1199
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:16,600
Speaker 1: history that it's constant except change, And so being a

1200
01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:20,120
Speaker 1: historian for me is actually mostly about the future now

1201
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:22,520
Speaker 1: that I really like that. And honestly, one of the

1202
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 1: reasons I talked about why I do this show is that,

1203
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:26,320
Speaker 1: like I mean, one, I like stories and I like

1204
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:28,080
Speaker 1: need stories. But one of the reasons I like stories

1205
01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: is so that we can understand, like our typical figures

1206
01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:33,320
Speaker 1: and understand who we can be and stuff like that.

1207
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:36,800
Speaker 1: But also even just like understanding the context. It's like,

1208
01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:40,640
Speaker 1: I clearly play a lot of baseball. I'm really good

1209
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:43,520
Speaker 1: at sports, but I imagine that if I'm trying to

1210
01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:46,920
Speaker 1: hit a ball that's been thrown knowing. I don't need

1211
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:48,680
Speaker 1: to just know where the ball is. I need to

1212
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:53,520
Speaker 1: know like the pitch, I need to know the trajectory

1213
01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:57,320
Speaker 1: it's on. And so learning history is often about learning

1214
01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:01,120
Speaker 1: the trajectory of these things, these these powers that are

1215
01:07:01,160 --> 01:07:04,720
Speaker 1: in motion right now, so that we can better anticipate

1216
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:08,800
Speaker 1: how to counter them or engage with them or whatever. Yeah,

1217
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we all get taught history like

1218
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:12,960
Speaker 1: a series of like static moments. When I was a kid,

1219
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:15,760
Speaker 1: you know, the education system totally changed, but it was

1220
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:19,080
Speaker 1: like names and dates and kings and presidents that you

1221
01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:21,720
Speaker 1: had to memorize the most boring. That's like the raw

1222
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:25,400
Speaker 1: material of history. It's what happens in between those where

1223
01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:28,200
Speaker 1: we find actual history. It's like if math, we're just

1224
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:31,160
Speaker 1: like learning the numbers one through ten and we called

1225
01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:34,120
Speaker 1: it counting, right, It's what you do with those numbers

1226
01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:38,600
Speaker 1: that is math. Do with this information is history. But

1227
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:40,400
Speaker 1: we teach kind of the wrong end of it. I

1228
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:43,400
Speaker 1: think at the earlier age, you're you're encouraged not to speculate,

1229
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:45,720
Speaker 1: not to imagine, not to build a world out of

1230
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:49,000
Speaker 1: the pieces, but to memorize them as like dead fact

1231
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:54,240
Speaker 1: and come back on Wednesday for more dead no way, no,

1232
01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:56,800
Speaker 1: not dead facts, lots of speculation. I'm sure anyone who

1233
01:07:56,840 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 1: listens to this knows I am not afraid of speculation.

1234
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:04,000
Speaker 1: That's a live fact. Yeah, it's in motion. Yeah and

1235
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:08,240
Speaker 1: uh yeah, Well we'll talk to you all on Wednesday.

1236
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:11,560
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1237
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:14,720
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool zone Media,

1238
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:17,720
Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check

1239
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:20,520
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1240
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:22,440
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.