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Speaker 1: Wind Down with Jane Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast. Amanda.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming on today. I'm Jana,

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Speaker 2: This is Kristen, and I've been just deep diving into

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Speaker 2: the Hulu series. I say, you know, I knew about

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Speaker 2: your case, but to watch it, it's like, Okay, I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna be really honest, right, I knew about the case,

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Speaker 2: but I didn't know about the case.

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Speaker 1: Does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: So it's like, I knew what they portrayed you as,

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Speaker 2: but I didn't really ever do the research to kind

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Speaker 2: of understand all the layers with it.

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Speaker 3: Right, And why would you write like we all have

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Speaker 3: lives and you know, I in your place would also

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Speaker 3: not have spent the time and energy to deep dive

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Speaker 3: down the internet rabbit hole and try to make sense

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Speaker 3: of all of the information and misinformation that's out there. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I completely understand, and I think that that is one

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Speaker 3: of the things that really motivated the people that I

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Speaker 3: worked with on this show was as soon as they

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Speaker 3: started deep diving into it, they were like, oh my god.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and I think that's what's so crazy and

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Speaker 2: why I'm just so excited for the next episode to

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Speaker 2: come out. But you know, because would you how would

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Speaker 2: you say the media in the US portrayed you?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, I would say that on the whole,

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Speaker 3: the US media tended to take the stance of, wait

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Speaker 3: a second, is this one of our own? Actually, this

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Speaker 3: psychopathic murderer that we keep hearing about? Like there, I

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Speaker 3: think there was a sense from the US there was

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Speaker 3: a sense of skepticism that was not readily available in

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Speaker 3: Europe at the time. That said, there were plenty, plenty

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Speaker 3: of journalists who were working for American outlets who you know,

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Speaker 3: wrote not just terrible articles, but whole books about like

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Speaker 3: how I'm a psychopathic murderer. So it's I can't say

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Speaker 3: that like the US media was itself one unified front,

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Speaker 3: but it was some of the first instances of skepticism

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Speaker 3: that were really vocal were coming from the US, not exclusively,

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Speaker 3: you know. Again, also in Italy there were like two

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Speaker 3: voices out there, and like the number, like the huge

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Speaker 3: quantity of people who were writing and investigating I say

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Speaker 3: that with air quotes the case, right, yeah, there, So

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Speaker 3: those voices were that were questioning the narrative that was

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Speaker 3: immediately presented upon my arrest basically and for like months afterward,

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Speaker 3: there really was just this one narrative about, you know,

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Speaker 3: a sex game gone wrong, a girl on girl sex violence.

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Speaker 3: That was something that was out there in the media,

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Speaker 3: really unquestioned for months and months and months, and as

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Speaker 3: the investigation played out, and it wasn't really until the

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Speaker 3: trials got started and the prosecution was forced to present

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Speaker 3: the evidence in a public forum, like the actual evidence

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Speaker 3: that they had instead of the rumors of what evidence

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Speaker 3: they had that people started to say, wait a second,

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Speaker 3: we were promised a smoking gun, we were promised a motive.

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Speaker 4: Where is all of that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think too, like from what I remember,

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Speaker 2: it was like the party, the US party girl, you know,

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Speaker 2: and that's that's kind of all I really took in, honestly.

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Speaker 2: And then and then from watching all this, I mean,

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Speaker 2: I'm just a first and foremost, I'm so sorry that

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Speaker 2: you had to go through that and to this day

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Speaker 2: still have I mean, to have books about someone portraying

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Speaker 2: you as this sociopath murderer. I mean, what basis do

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Speaker 2: they have to even say that when there is when

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Speaker 2: actually somebody got accused of the murder, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's what's so interesting about this case

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Speaker 3: in terms of how it compares to other wrongful convictions

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Speaker 3: that I don't know. Do you guys, Do you guys

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Speaker 3: dig into wrongful conviction cases all that much?

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Speaker 5: I'm ish Well, ironically, I just spent last week with

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Speaker 5: Anthony ray Hinton.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so I don't. I don't know if there's

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Speaker 1: like a theme in my life right now, but.

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Speaker 5: Just even hearing his story was, you know, absolutely crazy,

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Speaker 5: and just who you both are on the other side

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Speaker 5: of this is absolutely, like wildly inspiring to me.

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Speaker 1: But just I'm in awe of both of.

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Speaker 5: You, Oh wow, because it's very easy to be angry,

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Speaker 5: and it's very easy to come out of this with

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Speaker 5: a chip on your shoulder, to say the least, and

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Speaker 5: you both have that in common, which I think is

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Speaker 5: like this beautiful redemption in so many ways.

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Speaker 1: I did want to ask too.

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Speaker 5: You know, It's like, we talk so much about you

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Speaker 5: being wrongly used, and we should obviously, but you also

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Speaker 5: had someone that you know get murdered. Yeah, And I

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Speaker 5: think we kind of like scoop past that often. And

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Speaker 5: I just can't imagine you as a young girl being

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Speaker 5: in a country that is not your home and losing

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Speaker 5: someone that was close enough to you in a really

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Speaker 5: violent way. Tell us what that does to young Amanda

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Speaker 5: and now Amanda.

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Speaker 2: And then on top of that too, not to pile

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Speaker 2: that on from the portrayal in the Hulu, not having

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Speaker 2: that emotional thing being kind of a red flag to

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Speaker 2: those detectives, like were you just kind of numb to it?

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Speaker 2: Is that why the emotion wasn't there? Or yes, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot to that. Yeah, yeah, So there, you're right,

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Speaker 2: and thank you for taking note of that. That had

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Speaker 2: none of the horribly traumatic things that resulted from my

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Speaker 2: arrest taken place, right, had I never been suspected and

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Speaker 2: arrested and put through years and years of trials and

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Speaker 2: you know, global vilification, there would still be the trauma

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Speaker 2: of coming home and discovering a crime scene and over

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Speaker 2: the course of a few days realizing what had taken place,

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Speaker 2: which is that, you know, this this young woman who

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Speaker 2: was very much like my age, my you know, was

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Speaker 2: the other girl studying abroad who lived in a house

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Speaker 2: with me, like basically like the English equivalent of me

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Speaker 2: in the household, was just raped and murdered in her

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Speaker 2: own bedroom after coming home from you know, spending the

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Speaker 2: evening with her friends. Like that in itself would have

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Speaker 2: been a life altering traumatic experience for me in my life,

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Speaker 2: the one because of this weird sense of like, oh

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Speaker 2: my god, I I I like someone close to me

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Speaker 2: is now just gone, just disappeared, like and in a

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Speaker 2: horrific way. And I definitely had like really big emotional

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Speaker 2: mood swings about that in those early days. I think

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Speaker 2: that a lot of people really fixate on those moments

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Speaker 2: where I'm sort of just shell shocked, like there's a lot,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's this imagery of me outside of my house,

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Speaker 2: you know, trying to sort of take this all in.

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Speaker 2: And my first sort of reaction is almost like dead possum,

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Speaker 2: Like I'm just sort of like, oh my god, uh,

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Speaker 2: what's going on? And of course part of that is

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Speaker 2: that I'm not understanding everything that everyone is saying. Everyone's

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Speaker 2: yelling and Italian, and I'm not fluent in Italian, so

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to piece together what's going on. And also

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Speaker 2: I'm sort of in shock at you know, understanding that

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Speaker 2: something horrible is going on. So there's that shell shock reaction,

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Speaker 2: But then I also had other reactions like that. Again,

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Speaker 2: depending on how you what your sort of what your

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Speaker 2: baseline assumptions are can be interpreted in many different ways.

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Speaker 2: And that's one of the things that we try to

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Speaker 2: show in the in the Hulu series is that the

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Speaker 2: same like people can look at the same set of facts,

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Speaker 2: but depending upon their unconscious biases and their base assumptions,

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Speaker 2: they're going to interpret those same set of facts in

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Speaker 2: very very different ways.

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Speaker 4: And one of.

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Speaker 3: Those was this you know well reported moment when the

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Speaker 3: police took me back to my house, you know, a

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Speaker 3: few days after it had been closed off as a

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Speaker 3: crime scene, and like basically this was the first time

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Speaker 3: I'm entering into my house with the knowledge of what

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Speaker 3: had taken place there. Right Like in that moment when

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Speaker 3: I came home and discovered a crime scene, I didn't

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Speaker 3: discover the murder. I discovered a break in. I never

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Speaker 3: actually saw into my roommate's room, so I never saw

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Speaker 3: her body. I never saw, like, you know, the horrible,

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Speaker 3: bloody crime scene that was not like imprinted in me.

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Speaker 3: And it wasn't really until I was in the police

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Speaker 3: station and answering their questions and asking them questions like

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Speaker 3: what happened? What was actually what's going on that they

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Speaker 3: told me that my roommate had been stabbed to death,

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Speaker 3: and so I'm like reeling from this. They've take me

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Speaker 3: back to my house where now I have this information

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Speaker 3: in my head, and they asked me to go and

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Speaker 3: like sift through the knife drawer in our kitchen to

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Speaker 3: see if there are any knives missing, which immediately to

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Speaker 3: me sounds like they're asking me to see if there's

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Speaker 3: like I'm looking for basically if there's a murder weapon.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they asked in the show, They're like, is there

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Speaker 2: a missing knife?

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Speaker 3: And You're like, is there a missing knife? And I'm

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Speaker 3: like okay. So I'm searching through these not like this

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Speaker 3: knife drawer and I'm touching these knives, these like sharp objects.

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Speaker 3: And now with this like whole new context of something

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Speaker 3: like this was used to hurt and murder.

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Speaker 4: My friend, like, I freak I freak out.

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Speaker 3: I have a full blown like I'm sobbing, I'm hyperventilating,

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Speaker 3: I'm freaking out because like the reality of this like

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Speaker 3: devastating thing is really hitting me in this really visceral way.

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Speaker 3: And so that's my experience of that moment. But the

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Speaker 3: police who are looking on who are already assuming that

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Speaker 3: I'm not telling the full truth that I'm somehow involved.

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Speaker 3: They look at that moment and say, this is her confessing,

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Speaker 3: This is a confession, This is her like her body

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Speaker 3: is giving away her sense of guilt. And of course

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Speaker 3: that's their interpretation of that moment. But like that for me,

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Speaker 3: was me having a very emotional moment about what happened

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Speaker 3: to my roommate. That just happened to transpire in a

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Speaker 3: moment where the cameras weren't rolling outside of you know,

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Speaker 3: like they would have seen me crying hysterically if they

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Speaker 3: had seen me in that moment, but they didn't. And

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Speaker 3: so there's this interesting, you know, cherry picking of moments

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Speaker 3: in that immediate wake of discovering the crime scene. In

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Speaker 3: those days when I'm being questioned by police, there's this

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Speaker 3: cherry picking to say, oh, Amanda was not emotional, therefore

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Speaker 3: she was guilty. But then Amanda was emotional, therefore she

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Speaker 3: was guilty. And there's always through that lens of sort

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Speaker 3: of assuming my guilt because you know, like they did,

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Speaker 3: they assumed that I was involved somehow, that I knew

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Speaker 3: something from the very beginning.

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Speaker 1: You also are really young.

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Speaker 5: I mean, we keep acting like this is like a listen,

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Speaker 5: I know, forty three year old me and twenty something

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Speaker 5: me are like wildly different people who have had crazy

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Speaker 5: different experiences and can process information differently slower, like you're

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Speaker 5: a kid at this point.

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Speaker 3: Still, yeah, And I think notably, I was a kid

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Speaker 3: who had never had anything bad happen in my life.

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Speaker 3: Like I was raised by a loving family, where like

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Speaker 3: we didn't have conflict in my life. I didn't have

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Speaker 3: dramatic things in my life, and I certainly didn't have

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Speaker 3: any interactions with the police before I had military in

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Speaker 3: my family. So I was raised to sort of be

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Speaker 3: respectful and deferential to authority.

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Speaker 4: But like I didn't have any.

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Speaker 3: Context for how to respond to this situation. And of

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Speaker 3: course I'm also how many frickin' miles away from home

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Speaker 3: and everyone I know, and I haven't actually been in

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Speaker 3: Italy all that long, and so I don't really have

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Speaker 3: a stable sense of like community or like people to

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Speaker 3: lean on. And so I was just likemediately thrown into

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Speaker 3: a situation where I was utterly underresourced and unprepared, and

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Speaker 3: I was a deer in headlights.

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Speaker 4: I really didn't know what.

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Speaker 3: To do except to do as I was told.

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Speaker 2: In the Hulu show, there was two things that I

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Speaker 2: just had certain questions on one was when the detectives

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Speaker 2: were saying that your boyfriend at the time he wasn't

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Speaker 2: confirming your alibi that you were with him. M hmm, yeah,

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Speaker 2: which I didn't understand, and why to that. And then

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Speaker 2: also what I guess I'm still trying to understand what

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Speaker 2: confession is because when that went on the news, thing

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Speaker 2: she confessed and I'm like, what piece were they saying

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Speaker 2: was a confession?

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Speaker 4: M great.

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Speaker 3: So one thing that you should know, which is really

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Speaker 3: important both in Italy but also here in the United States,

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Speaker 3: is that police can lie to you, and they can

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Speaker 3: and will lie to you if they think that lying

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Speaker 3: to you is going to manipulate you into giving them

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Speaker 3: the information that they think you are withholding from them.

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Speaker 3: And so during my interrogation, which by the way, they

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Speaker 3: this is something that people do here in the US

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Speaker 3: as well, there's this difference and this is again really

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Speaker 3: important to know that of course none of us really know,

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Speaker 3: but there's a very distinct difference between an interview and

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Speaker 3: an interrogation. Are you guys aware of this difference?

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Speaker 5: I don't, actually, I mean, yeah, yeah, I mean but no, right,

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Speaker 5: I would assume, but no, yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, right, So.

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Speaker 3: The things we don't know and the things that they

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Speaker 3: sort of like rely on you not knowing. So the

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Speaker 3: difference between an interview and an interrogation is that an

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Speaker 3: interrogation means that you are in custody. Really you don't

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Speaker 3: really have the right to leave, and therefore you have

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Speaker 3: human rights that get triggered. Right. You are entitled to

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Speaker 3: an attorney. You are entitled to remain silent if you

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Speaker 3: don't speak the language. You are entitled to an interpreter.

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Speaker 3: These are all rights that we all have that law

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Speaker 3: enforcement is supposed to respect. If you are being interrogated,

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Speaker 3: if you are not being interrogated, if you are being interviewed,

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Speaker 3: technically none of those rights apply. But the problem is

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Speaker 3: how do you tell the difference between whether or not

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Speaker 3: you are being interrogated and whether or not you were

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Speaker 3: being interviewed, because it's not clear. It's happening all in

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Speaker 3: the same room with all of the same people, and

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Speaker 3: oftentimes interviews morph into interrogations depending on what you happen

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Speaker 3: to say during your interview, and it all depends upon

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Speaker 3: the police and what they believe, whether or not they

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Speaker 3: believe you are telling the truth. So as an innocent

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Speaker 3: person who is in that scenario. You have no idea

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Speaker 3: that the police are suddenly going to shift gears and

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Speaker 3: assume that you are lying to them, and now they

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Speaker 3: are going to start interrogating you with the presumption of

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Speaker 3: your guilt or that you are lying, and therefore they

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Speaker 3: are going to start using really, really coercive and manipulative tactics.

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Speaker 3: In either case interview or interrogation, police can lie to you.

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Speaker 3: And so over the course of my what the police

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Speaker 3: claim was merely an interview, they say I was never interrogated.

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Speaker 3: I was merely interviewed. They told me a number of

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Speaker 3: lies that I was present at the crime scene when

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Speaker 3: the crime occurred, and they knew that from physical proof

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Speaker 3: evidence that they found at the crime scene. And they

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Speaker 3: told me that Rafaela said that I was not with

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Speaker 3: him at his house. Now it is true that at

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Speaker 3: the same time that I was being interrogated, Raphael my boyfriend,

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Speaker 3: was also being interrogated. He was in another room being interrogated,

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Speaker 3: and at a certain point in his interrogation he was

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Speaker 3: similarly coerced into making false statements. So they told him

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Speaker 3: that I was not with him the night of the murder.

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Speaker 3: That they know that he's lying for me and that

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Speaker 3: he needs to stop lying or else he's going to

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Speaker 3: end up in prison. And so at a certain point

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Speaker 3: he flips. But like in the course of the timeline,

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Speaker 3: I don't know, Like to this day, I don't know

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Speaker 3: when he flipped. Did he flip before they broke, Like,

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Speaker 3: did he break before they broke me? Did they just

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Speaker 3: come into the room and lie to me and tell

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Speaker 3: me that he had changed his like changed his story

293
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Speaker 3: just to make me break, Like, I don't know, because

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Speaker 3: the police are allowed to lie to me.

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Speaker 4: So either way, like there there.

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Speaker 3: It is true that during his interrogation, he also was

297
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Speaker 3: coerced into signing a false statement, saying, maybe Amanda left

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Speaker 3: after I fell asleep, and she came back afterwards and

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Speaker 3: then told me that I had to lie for her,

300
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Speaker 3: like maybe that happened, and then he signs that, and

301
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Speaker 3: then I, you know, right, well, I don't have any

302
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Speaker 3: memory of this, but maybe I was there and maybe

303
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Speaker 3: it was you know, my boss Patrick, because he said

304
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Speaker 3: sent me a text message like that's my statement, and

305
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Speaker 3: then you know a few hours later, I retract it,

306
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Speaker 3: but by then it's too late. So that does that

307
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Speaker 3: answer your question about like the whole interrogation and the

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Speaker 3: statements and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: At what point were you like, oh, like, there, this is,

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Speaker 2: this is not going you know, because you know you're innocent,

311
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Speaker 2: so you know, you know, you're there for so many

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Speaker 2: days and hours and it's and then you're in the

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Speaker 2: prison and you're like no, no, like I'm but I'm

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Speaker 2: not a murderer, and I'm just it's like, at what

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Speaker 2: point were you just like this is I'm fucked.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I wouldn't say there's a single moment because

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Speaker 3: of the immensity of the situation and like the sort.

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Speaker 4: Of trauma upon trauma upon trauma.

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Speaker 1: Of it all.

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Speaker 3: Like there were moments of realization over time, Like even

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Speaker 3: you know, I remember there were even moments during my

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Speaker 3: interrogation where I was like, oh my god, oh my god,

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Speaker 3: what's happening.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, I'm I'm fucked.

326
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Speaker 3: Like there's you know, when the police started to convince me.

327
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Speaker 3: So what they did to convince me of this alternate

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Speaker 3: reality is they told me that I had witnessed something

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Speaker 3: so traumatic that my brain had blacked it out. And

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Speaker 3: so even though I had no memory of witnessing anyone murder, Meredith.

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Speaker 3: Of course I didn't have a memory of it because

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Speaker 3: it was repressed, and so I'm like going, well, I,

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Speaker 3: first of all, I don't know that the police would

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Speaker 3: ever lie to me and could lie to me, So

335
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Speaker 3: I'm assuming that everything that they're telling me is true.

336
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,760
Speaker 3: They're crafting this like false reality around me, and I'm

337
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,119
Speaker 3: trying to make sense of it. And already I'm like

338
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,240
Speaker 3: this in a kind of alternate reality because I never

339
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,760
Speaker 3: expected to come home and discover my roommate murdered, so like,

340
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,439
Speaker 3: already I'm sort of in a state of like destabilization.

341
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Speaker 3: And then the police start putting this pressure on me

342
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 3: and start suggesting this alternate reality to me that I

343
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,800
Speaker 3: have witnessed something terrible and I'm so traumatized by it

344
00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,800
Speaker 3: that I can't even remember it. So like when that's

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00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:04,840
Speaker 3: guarded to like implant itself in my mind, that was

346
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,840
Speaker 3: a huge moment of freaking out because I didn't know

347
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 3: what was true or what was not true anymore. Like

348
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Speaker 3: I had memories of what I was doing that night.

349
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Speaker 3: I was with my boyfriend, we were watching a movie,

350
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Speaker 3: we made dinner, like all of these very real memories,

351
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,679
Speaker 3: and they're telling me that they're not real, and that

352
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,119
Speaker 3: the real memories have been repressed and replaced by fantasy.

353
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,719
Speaker 3: And so I'm just like trying to make sense of

354
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:33,680
Speaker 3: this and feeling absolutely crazy, and I like, I completely

355
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 3: break down. I'm hysterical, I'm sobbing, and I don't know,

356
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,679
Speaker 3: and I just put my faith in the police that

357
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 3: they must know, and I sort of just say, Okay, fine,

358
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 3: I guess I guess you must be right, and I sign,

359
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 3: you know, sign away my freedom that way, like that's

360
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 3: that's how it happened in that moment. But then, of

361
00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 3: course I'm the pressure cooker of that entire progation disappears

362
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 3: and I have a moment to sleep and I wake

363
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 3: up and I realize, oh no, this, you know, I've

364
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 3: I really don't have memories of this, and I really

365
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 3: do remember being at my boyfriend's house. This is all

366
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,720
Speaker 3: a big mistake. I write a retraction. I think this

367
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,320
Speaker 3: is all just a big misunderstanding. The police take me

368
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,399
Speaker 3: to prison, but they don't tell me they're taking me

369
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 3: to prison. They say that they're taking me to a

370
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 3: holding place for my own protection. So again like they're

371
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,120
Speaker 3: lying to me and giving me this false sense of security.

372
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 3: They take me to prison. They say it's only going

373
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 3: to be a for a few days. I'll get to

374
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Speaker 3: see my mom, And of course it's not a few days.

375
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,160
Speaker 3: I spend one thousand, four hundred and twenty eight days there,

376
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,440
Speaker 3: and if it were up to the prosecution, I never

377
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:48,679
Speaker 3: would have left. But like even then, like even after I,

378
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,679
Speaker 3: you know, sit in front of a judge and I

379
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 3: hear them actually accuse me of participating in the murder

380
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 3: of my roommate.

381
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:57,440
Speaker 6: Like.

382
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 3: The stages of grief kick in, where you think this

383
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 3: cannot be real, like this cannot be real, like how

384
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 3: can this possibly be happening? And I get into this

385
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 3: state of like this this is just a big misunderstanding,

386
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,120
Speaker 3: and when the police do the actual investigation, they'll find

387
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 3: out who really committed the crime, and then they'll realize

388
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,200
Speaker 3: they were wrong and they'll feel really bad and it'll

389
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 3: be all okay. And of course that doesn't happen, and

390
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 3: then I think, oh, well, you know, as soon as

391
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 3: the trial plays out and a judge and a jury

392
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 3: here that there's like literally no evidence that I had

393
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 3: anything to do with this, they'll figure it out and

394
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 3: I'll get to go home. And then that doesn't happen,

395
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 3: and so like there were moments throughout this entire journey

396
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,399
Speaker 3: where I thought the right thing was going to happen,

397
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 3: and I kept getting barred, doors slammed in my face,

398
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 3: and I had to grapple with a new existential crisis

399
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 3: after another. And and you know, part of that you

400
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 3: mentioned like being interested in the next episode of the

401
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 3: show that's going to come out, Like part of that

402
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 3: trauma and that existential crisis is even after you know,

403
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 3: I'm acquitted and vindicated and freed, it doesn't mean that

404
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 3: I get to go back to the life that I

405
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 3: had before I was accused of this crime. Like I'm

406
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 3: forever branded with the accusation of murder, the accusation that

407
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,360
Speaker 3: I did something horrible to my friend, and that never

408
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 3: goes away, And like there's an existential crisis there where it's.

409
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 4: Like, oh my god, I'm fucked.

410
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 3: Like there's nothing I could possibly do in my life

411
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 3: that could ever define me more than this horrific thing

412
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 3: that I was accused of that I didn't do.

413
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 4: And that's a whole whole.

414
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 3: New level of being fuked that like I've had to

415
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 3: grapple with over the years.

416
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: Man.

417
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 2: Sorry, I just while you were there and then being

418
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 2: and then them actually finding the true killer, them still

419
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 2: doing your trial thinking that you guys, I guess, were accomplices.

420
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 2: Is that you know kind of what I was understanding

421
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 2: now knowing that he's out after you know, his thirteen

422
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 2: year sentence. How I mean, if you had any words

423
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 2: to him, I mean, because he's still he's still pleading,

424
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 2: he's not guilty, which is just even though he's up

425
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 2: for a charge right now for his ex girlfriend for

426
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 2: stalking and you know, just not being a good human.

427
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 2: So it's like, have you ever had a face to

428
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 2: face with him? If you haven't, is there anything you

429
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:06,479
Speaker 2: would say to him, because it's like he gets to

430
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 2: just kind of have this quick trial not really in

431
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 2: the media. Didn't even I didn't even know, That's the thing.

432
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 2: I didn't even know they caught the killer until I'm

433
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 2: watching your show that you produced, agreed, So that that's

434
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 2: where I'm like, wait, then why did she go to jail?

435
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 1: I don't know what?

436
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 4: Yeah?

437
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 1: More about him?

438
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 3: Yeah?

439
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 1: Yeah?

440
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 2: And then he gets out? Are you kidding me? She

441
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 2: would still be in there, you know, and we don

442
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 2: still hear more about you than we did about him,

443
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 2: talk about wrongfully convicted and then wrongfully the whole thing,

444
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 2: you know, with the with the with the court system,

445
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 2: you still have to become Amanda a person, Amanda a wife,

446
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 2: Amanda a mom, like with all of these things.

447
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 3: So yeah, so something that makes this case true unique,

448
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 3: I would say among wrongful conviction cases is very often

449
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 3: and wrongful can cases when they got the wrong person

450
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 3: it's because they didn't find the right person right, Like,

451
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,400
Speaker 3: they didn't, you know, investigate the DNA evidence they went

452
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,479
Speaker 3: off of like some mistaken eyewitness testimony. The wrong person

453
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 3: goes to jail, but everyone thinks, we're good, we got

454
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 3: the guy. And it's only until like twenty years later

455
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 3: that they test the DNA and it proves that it

456
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 3: was someone else, and then everyone goes, oh, we were wrong, oops,

457
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 3: and they let the guy out. In this case, like

458
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 3: within weeks, the police knew who committed this crime for real.

459
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 3: But by then they had already arrested me, my boyfriend,

460
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 3: and my boss and announced case closed to the entire world.

461
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 3: And so they had already taken a stand about what

462
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 3: they what they believed to be true about what happened

463
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 3: to Meredith. That she was murdered in a in a

464
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 3: murder orgy, and that was orchestrated by me, that they

465
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 3: had already like put a stake in the ground as

466
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 3: their claim to what happened. And then the forensic evidence

467
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 3: comes back and shows that there's no evidence of me, Raphael,

468
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 3: my boyfriend, or my boss Patrick Lumumba at the crime scene.

469
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 4: And they go, oh, who is this evidence of?

470
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 3: And it is evidence of a known local burglar who

471
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 3: has a history of breaking and entering, is known to

472
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 3: be aggressive towards women, has been caught once like five

473
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 3: days earlier, having broken into another facility and was carrying

474
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 3: a knife and stolen goods with him.

475
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 4: Like all of that.

476
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 3: Becomes reality, and the prosecution is faced with a choice.

477
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 3: Their choice is to go back on everything they've done

478
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 3: up to this point and say we were wrong. Here's

479
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 3: the actual person who committed this crime, or they have

480
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 3: to say we were only slightly wrong. Patrick is innocent,

481
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 3: but Rudy is the one who's actually Rudy's the black guy.

482
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 3: There's a black guy involved. It wasn't Patrick, it's Rudy.

483
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 3: And this whole scenario that we've concocted, which is the

484
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 3: murder orgy orchestrated by Amanda. That still is true, and

485
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 3: that's that's what they decided to do, is they decided

486
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 3: to say, we were only wrong about one thing, and

487
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 3: that was we got the wrong black guy, and everything

488
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 3: else that we have announced to the world remains true.

489
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 3: And you know, it's it's not just ego, right like,

490
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 3: I don't some people argue that it at that point,

491
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 3: that was when you know, the prosecution and the police

492
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 3: revealed themselves to be utterly corrupt, right like, they made

493
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 3: a very selfish decision to save their own face, their

494
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 3: own asses, instead of acknowledge that they, you know, had

495
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 3: traumatized innocent people. But they didn't do that, And I

496
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 3: don't think that they did it just out of a

497
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 3: sense of ego, although I don't put it past people's ego.

498
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 4: To be involved in that.

499
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 3: I think that the police were and the prosecutor, who

500
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 3: is the one who leads the investigation in Italy, they're

501
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 3: very much, you know, working together. It's a little bit

502
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 3: different than here in the United States. They were really

503
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 3: compelled by a number of things that they had assumed

504
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 3: about the crime scene from the very beginning, which was

505
00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 3: that one, there was no break in the police and

506
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 3: the prosecutor believed from day one that the break in

507
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 3: that I had called the police to report was actually faked,

508
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 3: faked by me in order to divert attention away from

509
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 3: the fact that I, a person who lived in the

510
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 3: house was involved in the crime.

511
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 4: That's what they believed.

512
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 3: So already, like they have this one hundred percent belief

513
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 3: that even though there's a guy who has a history

514
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 3: of breaking and entering is involved in the crime, this

515
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 3: is not a case of a break like a break in.

516
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 3: This is a case of someone in the house orchestrated

517
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 3: this crime and attempted to cover it up. Why they

518
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 3: believe that, that's a great question. My prosecutor was has

519
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 3: a history of investigating cases that he believes were cover ups.

520
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 3: So he tends, you know, he's he's investigated mafia, he's

521
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 3: investigated the freemasons. You know, these like social clubs that

522
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 3: he says, are you know, political covers for corruption.

523
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 4: He has this like.

524
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 3: Big, long time history of looking into cases with the

525
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 3: assumption that there is more than what appears to the

526
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 3: naked eye. And so I believe that he has this

527
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 3: unconscious bias even walking into what is very apparently a

528
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 3: open and shutcase of breaking enter, rape, and murder, like

529
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 3: he is already primed to believe that things aren't as

530
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 3: what they appear. And then, of course they have the

531
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 3: statements that they coerced me into signing in their interrogation,

532
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 3: which they believe prove that I was physically present when

533
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 3: the crime occurred, because in their minds, no innocent person

534
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 3: could be compelled to place themselves at the crime scene

535
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 3: if they weren't actually at the crime scene when it happened.

536
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 3: So they they also have an unconscious bias about that,

537
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 3: and so in their mind, these are compelling pieces of

538
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 3: evidence to suggest that even though they were wrong about

539
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 3: who exactly was involved, they were right to assume that

540
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 3: I was involved and that I was covering it up,

541
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 3: and that I was the orchestrator of this entire horrific event.

542
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: And meanwhile, this man just gets out.

543
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, And you asked, what would I say to him?

544
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 3: I mean, Rudy Guidet was never held fully accountable for

545
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 3: his crimes, right like he was ultimately held responsible for

546
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,959
Speaker 3: Meredith's rape. He was never held responsible for wielding a

547
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 3: weapon against Meredith. They placed the weapon in my hands,

548
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 3: and so he was never like legally found to be

549
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 3: guilty of like actually murdering Meredith. He was more like

550
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 3: his murder conviction was more like he was an accomplice

551
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 3: to murder, and so like there was a certain like

552
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 3: a less heaviness to his sentence, there was more openness

553
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 3: to reducing his sentence as a result of that. And

554
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 3: of course he was never held accountable for breaking into

555
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 3: our house and stealing objects from our house. He was

556
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 3: never even accused of that. So he was never held

557
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 3: fully accountable for his crimes. And he has taken advantage

558
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 3: of the prosecution's fixation on me to divert blame onto me.

559
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 3: He saw me like he saw the prosecution already turning

560
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 3: me into a scapegoat, and and he just latched onto

561
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 3: that as soon as he was arrested. Interestingly, before he

562
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 3: was arrested, when in a private conversation that he had

563
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 3: with a friend of his that was being overheard by

564
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 3: the police, he said that I was not there and

565
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 3: I had nothing to do with it, and so he

566
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 3: was confused about why I I had been arrested. But like,

567
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 3: after he was arrested then he and I'm sure he

568
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 3: took the advice of his attorneys. He said just let's

569
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 3: take advantage of the fixation on Amanda and try to

570
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 3: get you as little blame as possible, because you're inevitably

571
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:20,919
Speaker 3: going to be found guilty of this crime, but let's

572
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 3: see how much we can diminish your culpability.

573
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,879
Speaker 4: And to this day, like he takes.

574
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 3: That position, and you know, I'm not surprised given his background.

575
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 3: I mean, I didn't know really anything about this person

576
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 3: prior to you know, his crime and his involvement in everything.

577
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 3: All I knew him as was a random guy who

578
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,399
Speaker 3: played basketball with the guys who lived downstairs from us.

579
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:51,399
Speaker 4: That's all I knew.

580
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 3: I didn't even know his name, and I didn't know

581
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 3: until all these years later that he he has like

582
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 3: a really tragic backstory. You know, he was torn away

583
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 3: from his mom at a very young age, basically kidnapped

584
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 3: by his dad and taken to another country. And then

585
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 3: his dad basically neglected him and abandoned him, and he

586
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 3: was you know, shipped from foster home to foster home. Eventually,

587
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 3: you know, got into mischief. He started stealing, he started

588
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 3: doing drugs, He couldn't hold down a job, and at

589
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 3: twenty years old, he was spiraling. He he he was

590
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 3: trying to enjoy the life of a young person, and

591
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 3: he saw a lot of students around him who, like me,

592
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 3: came from privileged backgrounds, and we had the support of

593
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 3: our families, and we were studying abroad and having a

594
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 3: great time. And here he was, like, you know, constantly

595
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 3: financially strapped, constantly on edge, wanting to have fun, but

596
00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 3: having all of these sort of things stacked against him.

597
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 3: And I think that he had a lot of anger

598
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 3: and a lot of resentment, and a lot of anger

599
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 3: towards women, and that ultimately wound up expressing itself in murder.

600
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 4: And the thing that like, like, you.

601
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 3: Know, I'm obviously angry at him, but I don't like,

602
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 3: I'm more like I sort of understand how he went

603
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,359
Speaker 3: completely off the rails. What I don't understand is why

604
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,959
Speaker 3: he was allowed to go so far, Like to this day,

605
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 3: I don't understand why when he was arrested five days

606
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 3: before murdering Meredith and found to be armed and with

607
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 3: stolen property, he was just released. He was not held

608
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 3: accountable for that crime. He was never you know, tried,

609
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 3: He was not you know why that happened. Why he

610
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 3: was just allowed to walk the streets after committing that crime.

611
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 3: I to this day, I am really deeply troubled. And

612
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 3: of course, you know, on top of that, I'm troubled

613
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 3: by the fact that the truth of what happened to

614
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 3: Meredith and the person who did this to Meredith was

615
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 3: lost in the midst of the scandal story around me.

616
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:32,360
Speaker 3: And that's you know, I can't blame Rudy Gidet for that,

617
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 3: Like he took advantage of that, but he didn't invent that.

618
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 3: Like the prosecution and the media made it possible for

619
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 3: a murderer to be let off the hook, right, And

620
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 3: so I'm more upset with our institutions for allowing that

621
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 3: to happen, because Meredith might never have been murdered if

622
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 3: he had been actually held accountable in the first place

623
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 3: for the things that he had already done.

624
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 5: How redemptive and therapeutic was it to create the Hulu series,

625
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 5: to be an executive producer and be able to have

626
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 5: a voice, especially for the Amanda that spent four years

627
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:29,720
Speaker 5: not having one.

628
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I've been sticking up for my younger

629
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 3: self for a long time now, and I've been processing

630
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 3: this terrible experience alone for a long time, you know,

631
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 3: Like I have my family and my friends who support me,

632
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 3: but like in the sense of like really just digging

633
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 3: deep into what happened and how I feel about it

634
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 3: and what do I think about and what do I

635
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 3: do about it? That has been a really per personal

636
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 3: and intimate journey for me. And this series was the

637
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 3: first time that I really got to share that that

638
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 3: opportunity and that burden with other people. And it's been

639
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 3: a relief, honestly to be able to rely on a

640
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:27,720
Speaker 3: village of people who all like deeply, deeply care about

641
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 3: getting it right, getting it like for the sake of truth,

642
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 3: but also for the sake of people. Like I'm not

643
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 3: the only person who was deeply impacted by the series

644
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 3: of events that happened in Italy. First and foremost, like

645
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 3: my roommate was murdered, like she didn't survive her study abroad, Like,

646
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 3: so there's that, But then there's also you know, my

647
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 3: boyfriend Raphael, and all of our families, and you know,

648
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 3: all of the city of Perusia, and even my prosecutor

649
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 3: and the police, like everyone who was like directly impacted

650
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 3: by this case did not emerge unscathed, right, and everyone

651
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 3: is processing this traumatic series events from their own personal perspective,

652
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 3: and that's something that I really wanted to respect in

653
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 3: the making of this series, because that's something that's really

654
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:24,240
Speaker 3: deeply important to me. Like, to understand what this case

655
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 3: means to me, you have to understand that I'm also

656
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 3: deeply interested in how this case has also impacted other people, because.

657
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 4: I belong to people like that. That's something that is like.

658
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 3: Really really deeply rooted in my perspective, is that we

659
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 3: all belong to each other. We are all deeply interdependent,

660
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 3: for better and for worse, And in this case, this

661
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,760
Speaker 3: is a story of how we are all interdependent for worse,

662
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,359
Speaker 3: like in and that leads to these devastating consequences and

663
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 3: this journey that I then go on to try to

664
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 3: rehabilitate that sense of human connection. Like, one of the deepest,

665
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 3: the most traumatic parts of this for me was feeling

666
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 3: alienated from the rest of humanity because of what I

667
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 3: was accused of, and how like I didn't feel like

668
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 3: I belonged to people anymore. I was just I was

669
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 3: cast out, and really, like my journey has been one

670
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 3: of trying to re establish connection and to communicate understanding

671
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 3: and care. And so you know, this this show wouldn't

672
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 3: exist if it hadn't been for the fact that I

673
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 3: have sense, you know, since everything happened, I've gone back

674
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 3: to Italy to confront my prosecutor and to you know,

675
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 3: grieve the people and the lives that were you know,

676
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:54,760
Speaker 3: irrevocably altered.

677
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you even said too in that when you

678
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 2: were meeting your prosecutor that to this day now, he

679
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:06,399
Speaker 2: would never have prosecuted you, knowing everything that he knows

680
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 2: and who you are as a person. And I think,

681
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 2: I mean you going to meet him, was there a

682
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 2: piece of you that needed to hear that you that

683
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 2: he knew that you were innocent? That almost and I'm sorry.

684
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 2: Maybe I don't know if he said, I don't know

685
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 2: if he actually said, I'm sorry, But did you need

686
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 2: to feel that and see that in person with him?

687
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 1: That being the reason that you went, You know.

688
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 3: I think anyone who has been hurt by someone by

689
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 3: another person can relate to this.

690
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 4: But yeah, I really really.

691
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 3: Wanted him to say that he was wrong and that

692
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 3: he was sorry.

693
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 4: I really really wanted that.

694
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 3: And sometimes we think that something we really really want

695
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 3: is something that we need, and I think I almost

696
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 3: made that mistake.

697
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 4: Like that.

698
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 3: That can be a crushing mistake when we confuse what

699
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 3: we really really want for what we need. And I

700
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 3: think this thing that saved me in that confrontation was

701
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 3: learning to recognize that, of course I really really wanted

702
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 3: him to say that he was wrong and that he

703
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 3: was sorry, but I didn't actually need that.

704
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 4: What I needed.

705
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 3: Didn't have anything to do with him and had everything

706
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 3: to do with me, and that ultimately that was what

707
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 3: I needed to do.

708
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 4: Was what brought me back to Italy and.

709
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 3: Led me to a place of accomplishing something for the

710
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 3: first time in my adult life that I felt like

711
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 3: defined me more than this horrible thing that I had

712
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 3: been accused of.

713
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 2: You've obviously written your book, you have the Hulu series,

714
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:15,839
Speaker 2: you're working on these wrongful conviction cases. The people that

715
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 2: still have this perception or that think you're guilty. Does

716
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 2: that piece of you just go? Do you still feel

717
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 2: like you need to defend yourself or is it you

718
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 2: You can sit in your truth. Obviously it might still

719
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 2: bother you and frustrate you, But what do you do

720
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 2: with that piece when there's still people that might have

721
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 2: this certain opinion?

722
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I'm not going to pretend that it

723
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 3: doesn't bother me, right, And I think that one thing

724
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 3: that is true of anyone who's been wrongly accused is

725
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 3: you do feel like you have to spend the rest

726
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 3: of your life proving your innocence every single day.

727
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: That has to be exhausting, though it is exhausting.

728
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 3: But the other thing that is true is that I

729
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 3: know that people who persist in believing that I had

730
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 3: anything to do with my roommate's murder, that says more

731
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 3: about them than it says about me. Like, I've learned

732
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 3: not to take that personally, because one it's not in

733
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 3: my control, but two, it was not like the accusation

734
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 3: didn't come from me, right, like this this was something like,

735
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 3: for whatever reason, this idea of the girl next door

736
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 3: gone psycho resonated with some people out there, and resonated

737
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 3: in spite of overwhelming evidence of my innocence, and that like,

738
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 3: I can't tell you why that is, but that has

739
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 3: everything to do with what's going going on in their brain, right,

740
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 3: Their brain for some reason is fixated on this idea

741
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 3: in spite of evidence to the contrary. And so I, like,

742
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 3: I do not take personally the fact that that is

743
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 3: something that belongs to that person, and in my own brain,

744
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:21,839
Speaker 3: I try to just like let that go. Now, does

745
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 3: it mean that I'm still impacted by that perception? Yeah? Yeah,

746
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 3: people treat me as you know, and people treat me

747
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 3: a certain way. Given that that idea, given this idea

748
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 3: that like somehow I'm involved, I must be involved in

749
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 3: this crime. I can't actually be actually innocent. Like it

750
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 3: means that people like treat me a certain way and

751
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 3: have expectations of me that are not fair and are

752
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 3: not kind and are incredibly limiting and diminishing. And that

753
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 3: is something that I have to deal with every day,

754
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 3: but it is not something that I take personally or

755
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 3: that I feel like I have to I have to

756
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 3: do anything about. Like I've learned that I don't have

757
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 3: to be reactive to this terrible thing that happened to me.

758
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 3: I can be proactive in my life, informed certainly by

759
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 3: everything I've experienced, because you know, it's it's all in

760
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:31,359
Speaker 3: my head still, But like I get to choose how

761
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 3: I am going to to you know, think about it,

762
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 3: process it, express it, and and I'm not going to

763
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 3: be held back by the way that people want to

764
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 3: diminish or limit me.

765
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 2: So I had recently just finished filming a movie and

766
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:51,399
Speaker 2: the director had saw my story. I did a little

767
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 2: story yesterday saying like, I'm interviewing you. So I was

768
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 2: doing some prep work and he's like, man, I just

769
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 2: find her story so fascinating. And I said, okay, if

770
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:00,799
Speaker 2: there was a question, what would you want to ask her?

771
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 2: And I really liked his question, So shout out to

772
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 2: Tyler Russell. He's the best. But he said, I just

773
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,800
Speaker 2: want to know, after all the years fighting and pushing

774
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 2: past the lies and the headlines, when was the moment

775
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 2: she actually felt free.

776
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 3: Mm. So, And you'll get to see this in the

777
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 3: Hulu show, because there's.

778
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 4: The one time after all of this.

779
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,280
Speaker 3: When I, you know, I came out of that meeting

780
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 3: with my prosecutor having accomplished my goal. I set out

781
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:47,720
Speaker 3: to do something, to say something to him, this person

782
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 3: who had harmed me, and I did it. And after

783
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 3: accomplishing that goal, I never felt more free. I you know,

784
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:13,760
Speaker 3: I've just spent my entire adult life, my entire adult life,

785
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:21,800
Speaker 3: grappling with the consequences of this man's decisions, bearing burdens

786
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 3: that I never should have had to bear, and feeling

787
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 3: just so trapped and like there wasn't a way forward

788
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:38,799
Speaker 3: for me, and I had to push back against so

789
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 3: many people who said that what I wanted to do

790
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 3: was impossible, and I heard all of that and I said,

791
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 3: I'll never know unless I try, And so I did.

792
00:50:55,080 --> 00:51:02,839
Speaker 3: And I emerged from that meeting really truly feeling like

793
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 3: I had I had arrived at a place of closure

794
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 3: and that even though it didn't mean that like I

795
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 3: got all the things that I wanted, I accomplished all

796
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 3: the things that I needed, and learning to appreciate that

797
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:29,959
Speaker 3: as freedom is what I you know, that has been

798
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 3: the journey of my.

799
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 4: Life, like really really truly.

800
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 3: Understanding what it means to be free and what it

801
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 3: takes to be free.

802
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 6: M thank you for being so vulnerable and sharing that.

803
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 6: You're so stunning. Just your introspection is just so beautiful

804
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 6: to me. I know I could, we could keep you

805
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 6: on for another I want.

806
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 5: To actually have like five others.

807
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 1: But yeah, but I know we need to let you go.

808
00:51:58,760 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 3: But to.

809
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 2: How does Amanda, the mom, the wife, the person that

810
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 2: you are reclaim joy in all of this.

811
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:12,919
Speaker 3: I mean a lot of it is just being joyful, right,

812
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 3: Like I've lived through a very very sad experience, and

813
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 3: that could have been just the emotional default setting of

814
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 3: my life from here on out. But like, I feel

815
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 3: really lucky that I'm the kind of person who is

816
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 3: capable of experiencing joy and recognizing joy and and like

817
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 3: recognizing the preciousness of that. Like, we are all so

818
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 3: lucky to be alive and to have the things that

819
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 3: we have, and so I think what helps me, you know,

820
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 3: Like again, one of those silver linings to this experience

821
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 3: is like, for a second there, I thought I was

822
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 3: never going to get to be a mom, And so

823
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,919
Speaker 3: now when it gets hard, I still know that I'm

824
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 3: really really lucky to be a mom, and I just

825
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 3: savor it, even the hard stuff, and savoring life like

826
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:18,239
Speaker 3: the like it is. We are so lucky to just

827
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 3: be here right now and so.

828
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 4: Enjoy it, you know, Like.

829
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 5: Absolutely, I man, I'm really proud of you. I Mean,

830
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:31,760
Speaker 5: I know we're new to you, but I'm just really

831
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 5: proud of the person and the mom and spouse you

832
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 5: in friend, you can even be Oh thanks, where can

833
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 5: everybody just follow you along?

834
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:42,399
Speaker 1: And yeah? Promote it all right now?

835
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 4: Yeah?

836
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 3: Okay, so definitely watch Hulu series The Twisted Tail. A

837
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 3: man in Ox. My latest book is called Free My

838
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 3: Search for Meaning. My podcast is called hard Knocks. I

839
00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 3: also have a sub stack where I write essays and

840
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 3: you can find all of that and more at amandaknox

841
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 3: dot com.

842
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 2: Amanda, it's been an absolute privilege. Thank you for coming on.

843
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:08,719
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me.

844
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:10,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, take care, Bye girl,