Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. An IMF team is
Speaker 1: in Kenya to assess the impact of corruption as the
Speaker 1: country continues to face protests against alleged police violence. A
Speaker 1: year after deadly protests against tax rises and flagrant corruption.
Speaker 1: Can the government tackle graft enough to make a new
Speaker 1: deal with the IMF and maintain trust with the Kenyan public.
Speaker 2: This is not stopping until you get justice, until they
Speaker 2: listen to us, until they listen to most of the
Speaker 2: youths who actually are the largest percentage in this country.
Speaker 1: On today's podcast, we're looking at the Kenyan government's attempts
Speaker 1: to turn its economy around in the face of protest
Speaker 1: us and whether it can do a deal with the
Speaker 1: IMF that Kenyan's will accept. I'm Jennifer Zabasaga and this
Speaker 1: is the Next Africa Podcast, bringing you one story each
Speaker 1: week from the continent driving the future of global growth
Speaker 1: with the context only Bloomberg can provide. Joining me this
Speaker 1: week is our East Africa Bureau chief, that's Helen Yamburra,
Speaker 1: who's in Nairobi for us. Helen, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining us. So quite a lot has happened since
Speaker 1: the protests in Kenya last July that saw at least
Speaker 1: sixty people were killed, including Kenya abandoning a program with
Speaker 1: the IMF back in March. Maybe we just start here,
Speaker 1: where is Kenya now in negotiating a new deal with
Speaker 1: the fund?
Speaker 3: So ken you walked away from the final review of
Speaker 3: that previous four year IMF program, which meant it wasn't
Speaker 3: able to draw down in about eight hundred and fifty
Speaker 3: million dollars in a final displasement. It's already requested for
Speaker 3: a new program, but talks or that will only start
Speaker 3: maybe in September, when Keny is expected to have what's
Speaker 3: called Articles four our consultations. But there is an IMF
Speaker 3: team in town for a different process that's called a
Speaker 3: governance diagnostic. It's an exercise in which IMF staff analyze
Speaker 3: a country's governance and corruption vulnerabilities. So they come up
Speaker 3: with recommendations in a report that the government then can
Speaker 3: choose to make public or not. Something that's gained a
Speaker 3: little popularity. In the last eight years or so, they've
Speaker 3: been twenty one such reports in different places Haiti, Sri Lanka, Oritania.
Speaker 3: Kenya has asked for this. It's a voluntary process. That's
Speaker 3: what the IMF team is in Kenya currently to do.
Speaker 3: The outcome of that governance diagnostic may inform negotiations for
Speaker 3: a new financing program. It may also form the conditionalities
Speaker 3: for any subsequent timeess program. So that's where Kenya is
Speaker 3: right now.
Speaker 1: Elen. When we compare Kenya to some of the other
Speaker 1: countries you just listed there as far as corruption goes,
Speaker 1: how serious would you say the problem is in the country.
Speaker 3: Corruption is a pretty major issue in Kenya. Some may
Speaker 3: argue it's Kenya's biggest problem, and Kenya has a bunch
Speaker 3: of problems. Kenya ranks rather poorly on the Transparence International
Speaker 3: Corruption Perceptions Index. I think the most recent one it
Speaker 3: was about one twenty one out of one eighty countries,
Speaker 3: which is pretty poor showing so corruption in Kenya is pervasive.
Speaker 3: It's to be found everywhere. Most people will say that
Speaker 3: they ask for bribes, you know, for treatment, to get
Speaker 3: medical treatment, or to access their pension, or to get
Speaker 3: government services. And it's not just you know, in public
Speaker 3: the public sector, it's also in the private sector. So
Speaker 3: it is a really big issue in Kenya.
Speaker 1: Which sort of leads me to this next question. Helen
Speaker 1: about the protests that we've been seeing in Kenya. Much
Speaker 1: of the most recent ones are against the behavior of
Speaker 1: the police in Kenya, But can you talk about maybe
Speaker 1: more broadly where this reaction has come from and how
Speaker 1: we're seeing the government responding, especially considering those statistics you
Speaker 1: just pointed out.
Speaker 3: So the protest that we saw this week and last
Speaker 3: week was parked by the death in police custody of
Speaker 3: a digital activist. He was just staty one News. He
Speaker 3: was a teacher in western Kenya. He allegedly made some
Speaker 3: comments online about bravery in the police force against the
Speaker 3: second most senior police officer in the country, who then
Speaker 3: went on to make a formal plaint that led to
Speaker 3: the activists arrest. So that alleged murder, which was just
Speaker 3: two weeks ago, but since then there've been about a
Speaker 3: dozen similar debates in detention which the police marked as
Speaker 3: suicide and that's according to the Independent Policing Overset Authority.
Speaker 3: With this activist's death, the police initially reported that it
Speaker 3: was a suicide in the police cell, but were forced
Speaker 3: to change this after post mortempture that the injuries were
Speaker 3: actually inflicted by someone else. So that just shows you
Speaker 3: that you know, corruption is a big matter and people
Speaker 3: are willing to kill, you know, to cover up. The
Speaker 3: Deputy Inspector General of Police who made the formal complaint
Speaker 3: has since stepped away to allow for investigations, but demonstrators
Speaker 3: on Tuesday were demanding that he bearring in court. Several
Speaker 3: officers that were on duty on that day have also
Speaker 3: been are still going to quote but yeah, it just
Speaker 3: sent us cause a media issue in Kenya. That you know,
Speaker 3: police brutality has been a long, long running problem in
Speaker 3: Kenya since pre colonial times, and on Tuesday during the protests,
Speaker 3: one policeman was seen shooting at a street vendor at
Speaker 3: two point blank cringe, which just underscores the issue.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and the reaction to points to what we've heard
Speaker 1: from a lot of gen Zers who feel a bit
Speaker 1: disillusioned by this government and this president who had made
Speaker 1: promises to tackle this when he ran for president. Stick
Speaker 1: with me, Helen. When we come back, we're going to
Speaker 1: look at what some of the efforts the government is
Speaker 1: trying to make to tackle corruption and how crucial a
Speaker 1: new deal with the IMF could be to turning the
Speaker 1: country's economy around. We'll be right back. Welcome back today,
Speaker 1: we're looking at efforts to tell hackle corruption in Kenya
Speaker 1: as the IMF begins a two week visit to the country.
Speaker 1: Helen Yambura, our East Africa bureau chief, is still with us,
Speaker 1: so Helen. President Ruteau came into office promising to fix
Speaker 1: the economy that had been afflicted by corruption and also ineptitude.
Speaker 1: Many of these protests, though, are criticizing what he has
Speaker 1: and hasn't been able to do. What exactly has he achieved?
Speaker 3: Most Kenya that I've spoken to would say that President
Speaker 3: Ruteau has failed to stamp out corruption. Very high ranking
Speaker 3: officials in his government have been implicated or linked to
Speaker 3: corruption scandals. Corruption has always been a problem in Kenya,
Speaker 3: so it's not just a problem in this government, but
Speaker 3: it seems that it's gotten us with each subsequent government,
Speaker 3: and this one too has been able to make any
Speaker 3: in roads. Stamping clothes.
Speaker 1: I actually wanted to ask, what do you make of
Speaker 1: routers then response to these currents, the current situation that
Speaker 1: we're seeing on the ground there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he did come out with a statement saying that
Speaker 3: the killing of these activists was completely unnecessary and a
Speaker 3: sad tone of events, so to his credit, he has
Speaker 3: come out and condemned that killing.
Speaker 2: The independent police oversight authority must make sure that officers
Speaker 2: in uniform who engage in criminal activity instead of protecting
Speaker 2: citizens must be brought to book held to account decisively efficiently.
Speaker 3: But he has made comments against protests and Tuesdays protests,
Speaker 3: we saw all these hooded people on motorbikes with whips
Speaker 3: and like thetones, beating up people and they were chanting
Speaker 3: that you know, rout is going to get another term
Speaker 3: and that there should be no protest. So what some
Speaker 3: Kenyons and the protesters so that was that these were
Speaker 3: goes hired by government operatives to stample you know, legitimate
Speaker 3: constitutional people's constitutional right to protest. On the other side,
Speaker 3: the government says that it is doing something about this
Speaker 3: police brutality.
Speaker 1: Might any of this factor helen into what the IMF
Speaker 1: is going to be looking at over the next few weeks.
Speaker 3: This governance diagnostic looks at six state functions and one
Speaker 3: of the state functions that it looks at is the
Speaker 3: rule of law, which no police brutality and anti corruption
Speaker 3: would fall under. The other things it looks at its
Speaker 3: physical governance, Central bank governance, financial sector oversight, market regulation
Speaker 3: and until money laundering. So yeah, governance will feature, will
Speaker 3: probably feature in the report, but it's just one or
Speaker 3: five of the things that they look at.
Speaker 1: Is this potentially, though, a real test for President Ruto especially?
Speaker 1: You know, we've talked about how he came into power,
Speaker 1: what he you know, committed to doing, and really what
Speaker 1: his image has been on the global stage. I wonder
Speaker 1: if you think that this could potentially be a turning
Speaker 1: point for him and many people will want to see
Speaker 1: how he handles this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the protests last year what really sullied
Speaker 3: his image globally. He had been seeing as this Pan
Speaker 3: African leader, but those protests and how the government handled them.
Speaker 3: More than sixty people are killed in those demonstrations that
Speaker 3: were over both two months or so, that really did
Speaker 3: sully his image globally. And with this protest, I think
Speaker 3: the world will also be watching to see whether there
Speaker 3: have been any changes in the way the government handles protests.
Speaker 3: People's legitimate right to protest, and yeah, a lot of
Speaker 3: people around the world will be watching the response.
Speaker 1: And Helen, before we let you go, considering you are
Speaker 1: in Nairobi, I wonder if you can just describe for
Speaker 1: us the feeling on the ground there now that all
Speaker 1: of these different incidences are happening. Is it palpable when
Speaker 1: you walk around? I wonder if you get a sense
Speaker 1: that the sentiment maybe has shifted on the ground there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, with the protest last year, it was
Speaker 3: a lot of young people, but in the years of
Speaker 3: seeing the disquiet moving to even much older generations. So
Speaker 3: there is a palpable sense of disquiet. And although I
Speaker 3: don't think it would you know, be generated into you know,
Speaker 3: like vi violence, but I think many Kenyans are talking
Speaker 3: about change at the ballot books. We have elections in
Speaker 3: twenty twenty seven, so a lot of people are looking
Speaker 3: for a change at those presidential elections. So there's a
Speaker 3: lot of calls for you know, a different a different
Speaker 3: leader to come in then. And yeah, we hope that
Speaker 3: if there will be any change, then need to be
Speaker 3: a democratic rather than violence.
Speaker 1: Helen Yambara are East Africa Bureau Chief. Helen, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for joining us this week. You can read
Speaker 1: all of our coverage on Kenyon's economic challenge across Bloomberg platforms.
Speaker 1: Now here's some of the other stories from the region.
Speaker 1: We've been following this week. South African inflation held steady
Speaker 1: in May as uncertainty around its outlook mounts, complicating the
Speaker 1: task for the Central Bank when it meets next month,
Speaker 1: and South Africa's Kayalomi pre circuit is planning an overhaul
Speaker 1: costing as much as ten million dollars as the country
Speaker 1: prepares to submit a bid to host its first Formula
Speaker 1: One race in three decades. You can find these stories
Speaker 1: on Bloomberg platforms, including the Next African Newsletter. Will put
Speaker 1: a link to that in the show notes. This program
Speaker 1: was produced by Adrian Bradley and tiwa Adebayo. Don't forget
Speaker 1: to follow and review this show wherever you usually get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. I'm Jennifer's Abasaja. Thanks for listening.