WEBVTT - Why Kenyans Are Back on the Streets: Protests, Corruption, and a Crisis of Trust 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:16.960 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. An IMF team is 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:20.720 in Kenya to assess the impact of corruption as the 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:32.559 country continues to face protests against alleged police violence. A 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:37.239 year after deadly protests against tax rises and flagrant corruption. 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:40.680 Can the government tackle graft enough to make a new 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:44.479 deal with the IMF and maintain trust with the Kenyan public. 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:47.440 This is not stopping until you get justice, until they 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:49.760 listen to us, until they listen to most of the 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:52.839 youths who actually are the largest percentage in this country. 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:56.560 On today's podcast, we're looking at the Kenyan government's attempts 0:00:56.600 --> 0:01:00.000 to turn its economy around in the face of protest 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:02.440 us and whether it can do a deal with the 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:10.040 IMF that Kenyan's will accept. I'm Jennifer Zabasaga and this 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:13.880 is the Next Africa Podcast, bringing you one story each 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:16.959 week from the continent driving the future of global growth 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:23.399 with the context only Bloomberg can provide. Joining me this 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:26.640 week is our East Africa Bureau chief, that's Helen Yamburra, 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:30.000 who's in Nairobi for us. Helen, thank you so much 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:33.199 for joining us. So quite a lot has happened since 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.760 the protests in Kenya last July that saw at least 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:42.000 sixty people were killed, including Kenya abandoning a program with 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:45.399 the IMF back in March. Maybe we just start here, 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:49.360 where is Kenya now in negotiating a new deal with 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:49.919 the fund? 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:54.560 So ken you walked away from the final review of 0:01:54.600 --> 0:01:58.800 that previous four year IMF program, which meant it wasn't 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:01.720 able to draw down in about eight hundred and fifty 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:06.200 million dollars in a final displasement. It's already requested for 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:10.200 a new program, but talks or that will only start 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:13.920 maybe in September, when Keny is expected to have what's 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:18.480 called Articles four our consultations. But there is an IMF 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:21.799 team in town for a different process that's called a 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:27.799 governance diagnostic. It's an exercise in which IMF staff analyze 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:32.400 a country's governance and corruption vulnerabilities. So they come up 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:35.600 with recommendations in a report that the government then can 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:39.760 choose to make public or not. Something that's gained a 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:42.760 little popularity. In the last eight years or so, they've 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:49.280 been twenty one such reports in different places Haiti, Sri Lanka, Oritania. 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:53.680 Kenya has asked for this. It's a voluntary process. That's 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:56.880 what the IMF team is in Kenya currently to do. 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:02.440 The outcome of that governance diagnostic may inform negotiations for 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:07.640 a new financing program. It may also form the conditionalities 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:11.400 for any subsequent timeess program. So that's where Kenya is 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:12.040 right now. 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:15.079 Elen. When we compare Kenya to some of the other 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:17.919 countries you just listed there as far as corruption goes, 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:21.480 how serious would you say the problem is in the country. 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:26.200 Corruption is a pretty major issue in Kenya. Some may 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:30.080 argue it's Kenya's biggest problem, and Kenya has a bunch 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:34.680 of problems. Kenya ranks rather poorly on the Transparence International 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:39.840 Corruption Perceptions Index. I think the most recent one it 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:43.600 was about one twenty one out of one eighty countries, 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:49.240 which is pretty poor showing so corruption in Kenya is pervasive. 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.600 It's to be found everywhere. Most people will say that 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:56.720 they ask for bribes, you know, for treatment, to get 0:03:56.760 --> 0:04:00.640 medical treatment, or to access their pension, or to get 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:03.520 government services. And it's not just you know, in public 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:07.480 the public sector, it's also in the private sector. So 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.840 it is a really big issue in Kenya. 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:15.880 Which sort of leads me to this next question. Helen 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:19.920 about the protests that we've been seeing in Kenya. Much 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:22.640 of the most recent ones are against the behavior of 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.760 the police in Kenya, But can you talk about maybe 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:29.800 more broadly where this reaction has come from and how 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:33.640 we're seeing the government responding, especially considering those statistics you 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:34.360 just pointed out. 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:37.960 So the protest that we saw this week and last 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:41.880 week was parked by the death in police custody of 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:46.280 a digital activist. He was just staty one News. He 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:49.720 was a teacher in western Kenya. He allegedly made some 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:54.320 comments online about bravery in the police force against the 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:58.360 second most senior police officer in the country, who then 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:01.200 went on to make a formal plaint that led to 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:06.159 the activists arrest. So that alleged murder, which was just 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:09.760 two weeks ago, but since then there've been about a 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:14.040 dozen similar debates in detention which the police marked as 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:18.400 suicide and that's according to the Independent Policing Overset Authority. 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:22.680 With this activist's death, the police initially reported that it 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:26.760 was a suicide in the police cell, but were forced 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:30.000 to change this after post mortempture that the injuries were 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:33.599 actually inflicted by someone else. So that just shows you 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:38.440 that you know, corruption is a big matter and people 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:42.720 are willing to kill, you know, to cover up. The 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:46.400 Deputy Inspector General of Police who made the formal complaint 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:52.560 has since stepped away to allow for investigations, but demonstrators 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:57.040 on Tuesday were demanding that he bearring in court. Several 0:05:57.279 --> 0:05:59.599 officers that were on duty on that day have also 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:02.640 been are still going to quote but yeah, it just 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:06.080 sent us cause a media issue in Kenya. That you know, 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:10.320 police brutality has been a long, long running problem in 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:15.280 Kenya since pre colonial times, and on Tuesday during the protests, 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:19.920 one policeman was seen shooting at a street vendor at 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:23.640 two point blank cringe, which just underscores the issue. 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:29.000 Absolutely, and the reaction to points to what we've heard 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:31.040 from a lot of gen Zers who feel a bit 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:34.960 disillusioned by this government and this president who had made 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:38.719 promises to tackle this when he ran for president. Stick 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:40.960 with me, Helen. When we come back, we're going to 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.640 look at what some of the efforts the government is 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:47.160 trying to make to tackle corruption and how crucial a 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:50.120 new deal with the IMF could be to turning the 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:58.599 country's economy around. We'll be right back. Welcome back today, 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:01.880 we're looking at efforts to tell hackle corruption in Kenya 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:04.960 as the IMF begins a two week visit to the country. 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.760 Helen Yambura, our East Africa bureau chief, is still with us, 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:13.000 so Helen. President Ruteau came into office promising to fix 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:18.160 the economy that had been afflicted by corruption and also ineptitude. 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:23.160 Many of these protests, though, are criticizing what he has 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:26.760 and hasn't been able to do. What exactly has he achieved? 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:31.520 Most Kenya that I've spoken to would say that President 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:36.160 Ruteau has failed to stamp out corruption. Very high ranking 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:39.640 officials in his government have been implicated or linked to 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:43.520 corruption scandals. Corruption has always been a problem in Kenya, 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:47.560 so it's not just a problem in this government, but 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:51.240 it seems that it's gotten us with each subsequent government, 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:55.240 and this one too has been able to make any 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:57.400 in roads. Stamping clothes. 0:07:58.160 --> 0:07:59.840 I actually wanted to ask, what do you make of 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:04.520 routers then response to these currents, the current situation that 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:06.080 we're seeing on the ground there. 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:09.120 Yeah, he did come out with a statement saying that 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:14.400 the killing of these activists was completely unnecessary and a 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:18.320 sad tone of events, so to his credit, he has 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:21.080 come out and condemned that killing. 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:28.800 The independent police oversight authority must make sure that officers 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:35.319 in uniform who engage in criminal activity instead of protecting 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:42.720 citizens must be brought to book held to account decisively efficiently. 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:47.920 But he has made comments against protests and Tuesdays protests, 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:53.400 we saw all these hooded people on motorbikes with whips 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:57.720 and like thetones, beating up people and they were chanting 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.320 that you know, rout is going to get another term 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:03.840 and that there should be no protest. So what some 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:07.080 Kenyons and the protesters so that was that these were 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:13.880 goes hired by government operatives to stample you know, legitimate 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:19.200 constitutional people's constitutional right to protest. On the other side, 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:22.160 the government says that it is doing something about this 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:23.880 police brutality. 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:28.479 Might any of this factor helen into what the IMF 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:31.760 is going to be looking at over the next few weeks. 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:37.400 This governance diagnostic looks at six state functions and one 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:40.160 of the state functions that it looks at is the 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:44.920 rule of law, which no police brutality and anti corruption 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:49.080 would fall under. The other things it looks at its 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:55.120 physical governance, Central bank governance, financial sector oversight, market regulation 0:09:55.480 --> 0:10:01.160 and until money laundering. So yeah, governance will feature, will 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:04.920 probably feature in the report, but it's just one or 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:06.560 five of the things that they look at. 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:12.080 Is this potentially, though, a real test for President Ruto especially? 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.080 You know, we've talked about how he came into power, 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:18.440 what he you know, committed to doing, and really what 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:21.520 his image has been on the global stage. I wonder 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:25.800 if you think that this could potentially be a turning 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:29.480 point for him and many people will want to see 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:30.640 how he handles this. 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:36.559 Yeah, I think the protests last year what really sullied 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:41.120 his image globally. He had been seeing as this Pan 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:46.960 African leader, but those protests and how the government handled them. 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:51.440 More than sixty people are killed in those demonstrations that 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:55.160 were over both two months or so, that really did 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:59.520 sully his image globally. And with this protest, I think 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.800 the world will also be watching to see whether there 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:07.319 have been any changes in the way the government handles protests. 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:12.320 People's legitimate right to protest, and yeah, a lot of 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:15.040 people around the world will be watching the response. 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:18.800 And Helen, before we let you go, considering you are 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:21.160 in Nairobi, I wonder if you can just describe for 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:25.240 us the feeling on the ground there now that all 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:29.480 of these different incidences are happening. Is it palpable when 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:32.240 you walk around? I wonder if you get a sense 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:35.760 that the sentiment maybe has shifted on the ground there. 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:38.800 Yeah, you know, with the protest last year, it was 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:43.160 a lot of young people, but in the years of 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:49.280 seeing the disquiet moving to even much older generations. So 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:55.160 there is a palpable sense of disquiet. And although I 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:59.400 don't think it would you know, be generated into you know, 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:03.720 like vi violence, but I think many Kenyans are talking 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:07.080 about change at the ballot books. We have elections in 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:11.680 twenty twenty seven, so a lot of people are looking 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:15.920 for a change at those presidential elections. So there's a 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:19.840 lot of calls for you know, a different a different 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:22.840 leader to come in then. And yeah, we hope that 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:25.160 if there will be any change, then need to be 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.479 a democratic rather than violence. 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:32.360 Helen Yambara are East Africa Bureau Chief. Helen, thank you 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:35.280 so much for joining us this week. You can read 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:39.960 all of our coverage on Kenyon's economic challenge across Bloomberg platforms. 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:44.560 Now here's some of the other stories from the region. 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:49.360 We've been following this week. South African inflation held steady 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:53.440 in May as uncertainty around its outlook mounts, complicating the 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:56.240 task for the Central Bank when it meets next month, 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:02.280 and South Africa's Kayalomi pre circuit is planning an overhaul 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:05.559 costing as much as ten million dollars as the country 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:08.840 prepares to submit a bid to host its first Formula 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:12.760 One race in three decades. You can find these stories 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:16.760 on Bloomberg platforms, including the Next African Newsletter. Will put 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:21.800 a link to that in the show notes. This program 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.960 was produced by Adrian Bradley and tiwa Adebayo. Don't forget 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:28.640 to follow and review this show wherever you usually get 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:32.280 your podcasts. I'm Jennifer's Abasaja. Thanks for listening.