1 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. An IMF team is 2 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: in Kenya to assess the impact of corruption as the 3 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: country continues to face protests against alleged police violence. A 4 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: year after deadly protests against tax rises and flagrant corruption. 5 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: Can the government tackle graft enough to make a new 6 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: deal with the IMF and maintain trust with the Kenyan public. 7 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 2: This is not stopping until you get justice, until they 8 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 2: listen to us, until they listen to most of the 9 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 2: youths who actually are the largest percentage in this country. 10 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: On today's podcast, we're looking at the Kenyan government's attempts 11 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: to turn its economy around in the face of protest 12 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: us and whether it can do a deal with the 13 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: IMF that Kenyan's will accept. I'm Jennifer Zabasaga and this 14 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: is the Next Africa Podcast, bringing you one story each 15 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: week from the continent driving the future of global growth 16 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: with the context only Bloomberg can provide. Joining me this 17 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: week is our East Africa Bureau chief, that's Helen Yamburra, 18 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: who's in Nairobi for us. Helen, thank you so much 19 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,199 Speaker 1: for joining us. So quite a lot has happened since 20 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: the protests in Kenya last July that saw at least 21 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: sixty people were killed, including Kenya abandoning a program with 22 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 1: the IMF back in March. Maybe we just start here, 23 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: where is Kenya now in negotiating a new deal with 24 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:49,919 Speaker 1: the fund? 25 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 3: So ken you walked away from the final review of 26 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 3: that previous four year IMF program, which meant it wasn't 27 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 3: able to draw down in about eight hundred and fifty 28 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 3: million dollars in a final displasement. It's already requested for 29 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 3: a new program, but talks or that will only start 30 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 3: maybe in September, when Keny is expected to have what's 31 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 3: called Articles four our consultations. But there is an IMF 32 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,799 Speaker 3: team in town for a different process that's called a 33 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 3: governance diagnostic. It's an exercise in which IMF staff analyze 34 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 3: a country's governance and corruption vulnerabilities. So they come up 35 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 3: with recommendations in a report that the government then can 36 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 3: choose to make public or not. Something that's gained a 37 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 3: little popularity. In the last eight years or so, they've 38 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 3: been twenty one such reports in different places Haiti, Sri Lanka, Oritania. 39 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 3: Kenya has asked for this. It's a voluntary process. That's 40 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 3: what the IMF team is in Kenya currently to do. 41 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 3: The outcome of that governance diagnostic may inform negotiations for 42 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 3: a new financing program. It may also form the conditionalities 43 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 3: for any subsequent timeess program. So that's where Kenya is 44 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 3: right now. 45 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 1: Elen. When we compare Kenya to some of the other 46 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 1: countries you just listed there as far as corruption goes, 47 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: how serious would you say the problem is in the country. 48 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 3: Corruption is a pretty major issue in Kenya. Some may 49 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 3: argue it's Kenya's biggest problem, and Kenya has a bunch 50 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 3: of problems. Kenya ranks rather poorly on the Transparence International 51 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 3: Corruption Perceptions Index. I think the most recent one it 52 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 3: was about one twenty one out of one eighty countries, 53 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 3: which is pretty poor showing so corruption in Kenya is pervasive. 54 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 3: It's to be found everywhere. Most people will say that 55 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 3: they ask for bribes, you know, for treatment, to get 56 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 3: medical treatment, or to access their pension, or to get 57 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 3: government services. And it's not just you know, in public 58 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 3: the public sector, it's also in the private sector. So 59 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 3: it is a really big issue in Kenya. 60 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: Which sort of leads me to this next question. Helen 61 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: about the protests that we've been seeing in Kenya. Much 62 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: of the most recent ones are against the behavior of 63 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: the police in Kenya, But can you talk about maybe 64 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: more broadly where this reaction has come from and how 65 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: we're seeing the government responding, especially considering those statistics you 66 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: just pointed out. 67 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 3: So the protest that we saw this week and last 68 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 3: week was parked by the death in police custody of 69 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 3: a digital activist. He was just staty one News. He 70 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 3: was a teacher in western Kenya. He allegedly made some 71 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 3: comments online about bravery in the police force against the 72 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 3: second most senior police officer in the country, who then 73 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 3: went on to make a formal plaint that led to 74 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 3: the activists arrest. So that alleged murder, which was just 75 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 3: two weeks ago, but since then there've been about a 76 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 3: dozen similar debates in detention which the police marked as 77 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 3: suicide and that's according to the Independent Policing Overset Authority. 78 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 3: With this activist's death, the police initially reported that it 79 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 3: was a suicide in the police cell, but were forced 80 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 3: to change this after post mortempture that the injuries were 81 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 3: actually inflicted by someone else. So that just shows you 82 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 3: that you know, corruption is a big matter and people 83 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 3: are willing to kill, you know, to cover up. The 84 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 3: Deputy Inspector General of Police who made the formal complaint 85 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 3: has since stepped away to allow for investigations, but demonstrators 86 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 3: on Tuesday were demanding that he bearring in court. Several 87 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 3: officers that were on duty on that day have also 88 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 3: been are still going to quote but yeah, it just 89 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 3: sent us cause a media issue in Kenya. That you know, 90 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 3: police brutality has been a long, long running problem in 91 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 3: Kenya since pre colonial times, and on Tuesday during the protests, 92 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 3: one policeman was seen shooting at a street vendor at 93 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 3: two point blank cringe, which just underscores the issue. 94 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: Absolutely, and the reaction to points to what we've heard 95 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: from a lot of gen Zers who feel a bit 96 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: disillusioned by this government and this president who had made 97 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: promises to tackle this when he ran for president. Stick 98 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: with me, Helen. When we come back, we're going to 99 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: look at what some of the efforts the government is 100 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 1: trying to make to tackle corruption and how crucial a 101 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: new deal with the IMF could be to turning the 102 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: country's economy around. We'll be right back. Welcome back today, 103 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: we're looking at efforts to tell hackle corruption in Kenya 104 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: as the IMF begins a two week visit to the country. 105 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: Helen Yambura, our East Africa bureau chief, is still with us, 106 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: so Helen. President Ruteau came into office promising to fix 107 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: the economy that had been afflicted by corruption and also ineptitude. 108 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: Many of these protests, though, are criticizing what he has 109 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: and hasn't been able to do. What exactly has he achieved? 110 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 3: Most Kenya that I've spoken to would say that President 111 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 3: Ruteau has failed to stamp out corruption. Very high ranking 112 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 3: officials in his government have been implicated or linked to 113 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 3: corruption scandals. Corruption has always been a problem in Kenya, 114 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 3: so it's not just a problem in this government, but 115 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 3: it seems that it's gotten us with each subsequent government, 116 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 3: and this one too has been able to make any 117 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 3: in roads. Stamping clothes. 118 00:07:58,160 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: I actually wanted to ask, what do you make of 119 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: routers then response to these currents, the current situation that 120 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: we're seeing on the ground there. 121 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, he did come out with a statement saying that 122 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 3: the killing of these activists was completely unnecessary and a 123 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 3: sad tone of events, so to his credit, he has 124 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 3: come out and condemned that killing. 125 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 2: The independent police oversight authority must make sure that officers 126 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 2: in uniform who engage in criminal activity instead of protecting 127 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 2: citizens must be brought to book held to account decisively efficiently. 128 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 3: But he has made comments against protests and Tuesdays protests, 129 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 3: we saw all these hooded people on motorbikes with whips 130 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 3: and like thetones, beating up people and they were chanting 131 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 3: that you know, rout is going to get another term 132 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 3: and that there should be no protest. So what some 133 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 3: Kenyons and the protesters so that was that these were 134 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 3: goes hired by government operatives to stample you know, legitimate 135 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 3: constitutional people's constitutional right to protest. On the other side, 136 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 3: the government says that it is doing something about this 137 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 3: police brutality. 138 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,479 Speaker 1: Might any of this factor helen into what the IMF 139 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: is going to be looking at over the next few weeks. 140 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 3: This governance diagnostic looks at six state functions and one 141 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 3: of the state functions that it looks at is the 142 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 3: rule of law, which no police brutality and anti corruption 143 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 3: would fall under. The other things it looks at its 144 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 3: physical governance, Central bank governance, financial sector oversight, market regulation 145 00:09:55,480 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 3: and until money laundering. So yeah, governance will feature, will 146 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 3: probably feature in the report, but it's just one or 147 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 3: five of the things that they look at. 148 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: Is this potentially, though, a real test for President Ruto especially? 149 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: You know, we've talked about how he came into power, 150 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: what he you know, committed to doing, and really what 151 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: his image has been on the global stage. I wonder 152 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: if you think that this could potentially be a turning 153 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: point for him and many people will want to see 154 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: how he handles this. 155 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:36,559 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the protests last year what really sullied 156 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 3: his image globally. He had been seeing as this Pan 157 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 3: African leader, but those protests and how the government handled them. 158 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 3: More than sixty people are killed in those demonstrations that 159 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 3: were over both two months or so, that really did 160 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 3: sully his image globally. And with this protest, I think 161 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 3: the world will also be watching to see whether there 162 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 3: have been any changes in the way the government handles protests. 163 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 3: People's legitimate right to protest, and yeah, a lot of 164 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 3: people around the world will be watching the response. 165 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: And Helen, before we let you go, considering you are 166 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: in Nairobi, I wonder if you can just describe for 167 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: us the feeling on the ground there now that all 168 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: of these different incidences are happening. Is it palpable when 169 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: you walk around? I wonder if you get a sense 170 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: that the sentiment maybe has shifted on the ground there. 171 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, with the protest last year, it was 172 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 3: a lot of young people, but in the years of 173 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 3: seeing the disquiet moving to even much older generations. So 174 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 3: there is a palpable sense of disquiet. And although I 175 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 3: don't think it would you know, be generated into you know, 176 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 3: like vi violence, but I think many Kenyans are talking 177 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 3: about change at the ballot books. We have elections in 178 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 3: twenty twenty seven, so a lot of people are looking 179 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 3: for a change at those presidential elections. So there's a 180 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 3: lot of calls for you know, a different a different 181 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 3: leader to come in then. And yeah, we hope that 182 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 3: if there will be any change, then need to be 183 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,479 Speaker 3: a democratic rather than violence. 184 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: Helen Yambara are East Africa Bureau Chief. Helen, thank you 185 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: so much for joining us this week. You can read 186 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 1: all of our coverage on Kenyon's economic challenge across Bloomberg platforms. 187 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: Now here's some of the other stories from the region. 188 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: We've been following this week. South African inflation held steady 189 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: in May as uncertainty around its outlook mounts, complicating the 190 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: task for the Central Bank when it meets next month, 191 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: and South Africa's Kayalomi pre circuit is planning an overhaul 192 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,559 Speaker 1: costing as much as ten million dollars as the country 193 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: prepares to submit a bid to host its first Formula 194 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: One race in three decades. You can find these stories 195 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: on Bloomberg platforms, including the Next African Newsletter. Will put 196 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: a link to that in the show notes. This program 197 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: was produced by Adrian Bradley and tiwa Adebayo. Don't forget 198 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: to follow and review this show wherever you usually get 199 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: your podcasts. I'm Jennifer's Abasaja. Thanks for listening.