WEBVTT - How Low Can You Go 0:00:01.240 --> 0:00:05.080 Amy and TJ presents Aubrey Oday covering the Ditty trial. 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.640 Hey everyone, welcome back to Amy and TJ presents me 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:14.000 Aubrey O'Day covering the Didty trial. And as always, our 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:18.280 coverage of the Didty Trial continues. So I just want 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:21.120 to let everyone know that I'm flying solo today and 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:23.880 that TJ and Amya are on a much needed vacation, 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:28.400 and I can't wait to announce my guest today who 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:31.160 I'm so excited to speak to. Her name is doctor 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:35.280 Hillary Goldscher, and she is a clinical psychologist and expert 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:38.879 in trauma, recovery and emotional healing. She has over ten 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:43.280 years of experienced in psychotherapy services. She specializes in the 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:50.120 treatment of couples, relationships, depression, anxiety, trauma, grief, and eating disorders. Hillary, Girl, 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:52.559 I think I have experienced almost all of these, So 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:54.440 I am so happy to talk to you. 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:57.240 I got you, I got you. Thank you so much 0:00:57.280 --> 0:00:57.920 for having me. 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:02.160 Thank you for being here. So I specifically felt very 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:08.520 passionate about discussing last week's testimony, in particular the forensic 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:13.720 psychologist Dohn Hughes. Let me first establish John Hughes testified 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:19.080 for the prosecution she testified to trauma, bonding, delayed reporting, 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:23.360 substance use as a coping mechanism. The Internet is buzzing 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:28.800 on this conversation. I think it's so important to establish 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:31.280 with you at the gate, why women stay with their 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:33.920 abusers as it pertains to the Ditty trial. 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:39.360 Yeah, this is the question that's sort of floating around 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:44.640 the culture right now. And while I'm disturbed and devastated 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:50.240 about the alleged crimes against the myriad of women involved, 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:52.840 on the sort of silver lining is that we get 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:53.640 to talk about this. 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:54.800 Absolutely. 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:58.640 The question you just asked is complex, and a lot 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:02.680 of people, unfortunately, are having an opportunity to think through 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:07.400 this very nuanced paradigm. Because if you haven't been through it, 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:10.200 or you don't know someone who's been through it, it's 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:12.800 a fair enough question or a fair enough set of 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:16.840 complex factors that get one who is curious and trying 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:20.160 to understand this complex situation to ask why I don't 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:22.680 get it. Why would someone say when things are bad 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:26.960 and scared, yes, yes, that can lead to blaming the 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:32.160 victim or minimizing their trauma, and it's a really negative 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:36.000 vicious cycle for victims and for the paradigm of domestic abuse. 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:38.520 So I'm happy we're talking about it. So I have 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:42.120 a lot to say about why, So feel free to interrupt. 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:44.720 You can go for it. As I was listening to 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:48.360 her testimony, I found myself looking back on many of 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:52.840 my relationships and understanding many levels to all of her 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:56.760 conversation that she had in testimony that she had, including 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:01.240 utilizing sex as a love language for somebody who had 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:04.040 groomed and established with me that that's how I can 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:08.440 get his attention. So when text messages that say, hey, 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:10.799 I want more, I love you, I can't live without you, 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:13.240 let's make the next one more wild. This is making 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:15.560 so many people react in a way where they think, 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:19.320 clearly she wanted it, Clearly she's asking, Clearly she was willing, 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:23.400 and we all know that there are absolutely established events 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:26.200 that were not willing and that we're not wanted. But 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:29.440 for the ones that were during cross examination, I think 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:32.480 it's good to start breaking down why women do that 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:36.080 and how they find themselves in a position. Women and men, 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:38.960 by the way, because this isn't gender exclusive. 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:41.720 I'm really glad you pointed that out, because obviously there's 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:46.320 shame encircling men who are victims of domestic violence given 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:51.000 the full of male female roles that society establishes. 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:52.280 But you're right, and by the way, I want to 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:55.080 jump in with you there. When I first started this process, 0:03:55.120 --> 0:04:00.520 when Homeland Security came to me, I knew more, potentially 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:05.080 knew more alleged male victims than women. And still potentially 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:08.720 you know alleged victims. I know more men than women. 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:13.080 It's so much harder. And when I hear them discuss 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:17.240 how what they fear in coming forward, it's a completely 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:19.800 different set of things than women do. But we know 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:22.679 that what females face, which is what we're seeing right now, 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:25.800 which is a bunch of people calling you names and 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:28.120 making fun of the things that you would do in 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:32.919 private sexual behavior with your partner. And you know, you 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:35.279 can only imagine how much more complex it goes on 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:37.720 the other side and all of the stigmas that are 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:40.520 associated there. But I find that men even have a 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:43.520 harder time women have come out, and so it is 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:45.560 a little bit more of a conversation. But you do 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:48.280 know instantly when you come out, you likely the first 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:52.000 thing you will experience is being slatshamed and not believed. 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:55.480 If you're with somebody of a higher status, more power, 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.400 or more of a fan base or a liking. 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:01.920 Before I get into of the mapro buckets of why 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:05.600 people stay, I'll start where you ended, because shame is 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:09.559 such a thematic reason why both men and women stay. 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:17.279 When one quote comes out via public or criminal accusation, 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:20.760 or just even telling their community that they've been involved 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:25.680 in a domestic abusive situation, there is deep rooted shame 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:30.919 internalized because of their own inability to leave, their admission 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:35.320 that they stayed and endured abuse, and the potential reaction 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:37.040 of the community around them. 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:39.360 And let me stop with you on that. Right there, 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:42.239 I was in an abusive relationship. I tried to tell 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:46.680 people in a very like on a larger level, and 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:51.760 the response from both the person that was involved in 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:54.880 it and the people around was if it was so bad, 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:58.040 then why did you stay? That to me was always 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:00.760 something that would make my blood boil, and I would 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:03.560 try to keep the more almost that you try to 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.080 explain that, the more they sit back and think that 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:09.000 you're full of it. It was so difficult for me 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:12.440 to explain. Nowadays, when I hear somebody say that, it's 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:14.640 an instant trigger for me to be like, oh, you're 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:18.159 definitely abusive, and she's definitely been abused. That line alone, 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:20.880 for me, is a tell. Now maybe it's not always 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:24.080 a tell, but for me, it's a pretty big tell. 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:25.880 And I hate that we're getting caught up in that 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:30.120 place because there's tons of different reasons. Please talk to 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:32.120 me about what they are and let let our audience 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:35.560 know what they are. There's no general trait of anyone victim. 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:38.160 I'm so different than other victims that I know, how 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:41.560 I grew up, racially, gender, all of the above. It's 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:46.240 just a way that you are, the way that you're groomed, 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:49.120 the process in which you fall for these people, and 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:52.280 you experience the abuse, it can trigger something in your 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:57.160 mind that almost creates this attachment through fear, through isolation. 0:06:57.320 --> 0:06:59.440 For me, isolation was a big part of it. I 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:03.360 didn't have anybody to lean on, so discuss what those 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:04.039 factors are. 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:07.920 Ooh, you're so well versed, and I'm going to cover back. 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:10.760 Fortunately, you know, for those out there that don't understand this, 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:14.440 you know, I love that you have made very good 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:17.360 decisions for yourself and that you were able to avoid 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:20.120 these types of people in the world. But please make 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:23.200 space for the possibility that these things are very real 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:24.000 for other people. 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:28.480 Yes, that's a great foundation to lay forth as I 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:32.480 begin this discussion, which is for those who are listening 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:34.960 that haven't had this experience or don't know anyone in 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:37.960 their sphere that have, just have an open mind. It 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:41.080 is a complex notion, but take a listen to the 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:44.000 set of factors that can intersect that can result in 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:48.080 really strong, amazing women becoming victim over a very victims 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:50.680 over a very long period of time. So let's kind 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:52.840 of start on the macro. There are a number of 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:56.920 reasons and they usually pool together that result in women 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:59.800 or men staying in an abusive relationship, and they fall 0:07:59.840 --> 0:08:02.600 on or the following categories. There may be more. I 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:05.760 might miss one or two, but these from my anecdotal, 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:09.800 empirical research and experience are the top ones, which are 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:15.120 psychological and emotional. We'll get into all of these logistical, financial, 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:16.560 physical safety. 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.120 Does the first one run into childhood trauma? 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:23.720 Yes, we're going to start there, right, psychological and emotional factors. 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:28.760 So often, not always, but often a victim of abuse 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:33.280 comes from a family and the details and the narrative 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:38.360 and the stories vary, the demographics, the socioeconomic status. But 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:42.840 at the core is some version of abandonment, some version 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:47.280 of an internalized sense of low self worth or low value, 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:53.280 and either an implicit or explicit edict to find a scenario, 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:57.640 a relationship, a partner that sort of confirms and of 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:00.440 firms that they're okay, that they're a value you, that 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:04.320 they're worthy, and if they stringed up with someone that 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:08.880 can provide that at times, but there's emotional and physical 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:13.280 rent to pay, through verbal abuse, through physical abuse. Sometimes 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:19.360 the person can't garner the internal resources to value their 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:25.040 emotional and physical safety over the sort of deposit of 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:28.079 self worth that comes when the person chooses them, when 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:30.679 the person is kind to them, when the person is 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:34.760 bonded to them. And this is a complex psychological sort 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:40.079 of notion, but it boils down to pathologically low self worth. 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:42.840 And self worth also does not have a beauty standard. 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:44.640 There are a lot of people that look at Cassie 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:46.880 and don't understand how she could have ever had any 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:50.160 low self worth. She's a perfectly beautiful looking woman according 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:53.199 to social standards. But I do want to make clear 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:57.160 that you know I when I would experience it, it 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:02.559 was exactly what you said due to abandonment from childhood. 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:05.200 And even when I met Diddy relating this back to 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:10.360 Puff himself, he I've said this so many times, but 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:13.800 if you were to ask me now, who would you 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:16.280 want to revisit in your past? Of all the accomplishments 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:20.360 you've had, who's praise would you want to revisit that 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:24.600 made you feel the most full? And still at forty one, 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:27.880 after tons of fucking therapy and tons of feeling and 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:30.280 moving to Bali for two years and doing every little 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:32.880 thing that I possibly could, because talking to a person 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:37.679 and all of the other things just wasn't enough, I 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:41.520 still would say Puff. And that's because he's just so 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:44.600 I keep trying to really describe this to the viewers 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:49.479 because it seems so unreasonable almost, but he's so all consuming. 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:52.680 I've only met a few very powerful people in life, 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:56.520 and I've met them all mostly that steal the air 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:59.920 out of the room. You almost have this palpable rea 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:04.120 like when they come in, because you're gasping for air 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:07.240 because their presence is so big. Now, in that case, 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:10.280 that's a very extreme case of somebody absorbing a room. 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:15.400 But I've met people on everyday levels that I can 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:19.000 see in their relationship are just exhausting all the air 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:20.960 in the room. It's the same type of feeling on 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:26.000 a large scale. But when Puff would be proud of 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:29.960 you and be impressed with you because he's so, he 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:33.720 rarely was. He mostly was very clear about all of 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:37.360 his dislikes and all the things that you weren't doing well, 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:39.360 and all the things that you needed to fix. And 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:42.679 it wasn't healthy language that was being used or healthy. 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:46.439 It's grooming, is what it is. Putting us in scenarios 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:48.880 where our dreams are held over our heads and making 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:51.679 us do a ridiculous things in order to prove ourselves 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:55.080 time and time again. It was called reality TV, and 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:57.640 a network and a production and a whole bunch of 0:11:57.679 --> 0:11:59.720 other people signed off on it and thought it was 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:04.280 fun and a great look for television. And unfortunately, I 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:06.840 think it is also part of the response. It needs 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.520 to take accountability for itself in regards to how many 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:13.679 people looked up at a television then and decided that 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:18.319 to be life as it is, to decided for that 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:20.560 to be an example for them in one way or another. 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.920 You were seeing this very powerful person. A lot of 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:27.720 people that were enamored by his presence, doing all kinds 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:31.120 of ridiculous shit, continuously having to prove themselves in ways 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:34.440 that are unreasonable, like run Central Park until two of 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:38.680 you fall and that's who's going home. These are unreasonable things. 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:40.640 I don't know any other artists that didn't grow up 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:44.560 under that situation that had to do that or was 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:45.560 expected to do that. 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:49.839 Well, you're talking about is the power balance. Imbalance was 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:54.199 normalized and sanctioned and popular, right. 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:57.160 Popular, popular amongst people that wanted to watch it, or 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:00.240 I wouldn't ever returned for that many seasons because because 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:02.120 they can't keep a show on that no one wants 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:08.119 to watch. As a society, we feed into such toxic narratives, 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:10.319 and those narratives play out right in front of us 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:16.080 on our televisions. The way that I saw that I 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.600 returned back to a healthy state was I had to 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:22.400 disconnect from this country. I had to leave and go 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:25.920 to another country and live there and disconnect socials and 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:28.680 everything and get out of the way of the way 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:32.200 that we are socialized. And nowadays our phones are our currency. 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:36.720 Your content is your life if you're in entertainment. We 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.880 have such an addiction to these devices that are truly 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:43.480 giving us a lot of unhealthy messages. So what do 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:47.839 you advise to people who are seeing shows on television 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:51.200 or seeing articles on their phones without you know, we've 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:54.960 had discussions on this show about headlines and narrating people's 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:59.240 lives without any proof or reaching out to find out 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.280 if anything is fast actual, just blanket making statements that 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:05.160 aren't even true. What is your opinion for those people 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:09.160 that are so lost in that toxic cycle that they 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:12.640 could be definitely in a position to be I think 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.440 what it is personally is creating an identity for people. 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:19.720 When you're depending on those sources for an identity, you 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:22.280 could end up on a pretty bad path in life. 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:27.480 Yeah, it's a big ask for people to disconnect from 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:32.560 their affiliation around those narratives. It's seductive, very seductive. 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:34.760 Is that all it takes? Seduction? 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:38.800 Well, I mean it intersects with a number of factors, right, 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:48.560 probably anxiety, restlessness, boredom, low self worth. Right, Imbibing those 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:54.880 headlines and becoming attached to those narratives offers us a 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:58.040 version of a dopamine hit. Right, It's an escape from 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.520 our own reality and gives us sometimes an opportunity to 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:05.160 be righteous. And judge, which can give us an avenue 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:06.520 to escape from our own. 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:09.320 Pain and give you a high to be able to 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:12.280 be somebody that knows better. You're getting a little bit 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:14.120 of a serotonin boost almost. 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:15.080 That's right. 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:29.920 Question for people out there that are trying to get 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:33.360 out of a toxic situation or out of a situation 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:35.040 where they're being abused. I have a lot of people 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:38.520 writing me right now that are inside of abusive relationships, 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:41.760 and I see the spiral. I don't have quick advice. 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:44.760 Let me do a quick summary of why people are there, 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:47.640 and then we'll go into how do you begin to 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:51.000 even think about extracting? So we talked about that emotional 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:55.320 psychological factor briefly, and I could do hours about this 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:58.920 because it's highly complex. Not everyone who's had abandonment in 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:02.360 their childhood end up abuse of relationships, of course that's true. 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:05.560 But people who end up in abusive relationships often have 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:08.680 this as a background, yes, And so that's one of 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.560 the aspects that we more often than not see. The 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.320 other we address briefly, which is guilt and shame, the 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:19.400 internalized guilt for being someone that would subject themselves to 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:23.760 these dynamics and allow themselves to be a victim are overwhelming, 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:28.560 can cause emotional paralysis, what we call a severe collapse response, 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:33.360 where you're literally internally and physically in a fetal position, 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:36.760 unable to think, unable to act. The entire nervous system 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:40.560 shuts down, goes into a fight or flight solely because 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:43.960 of the shame, let alone the emotional and physical abuse 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:47.360 you may be enduring. So it's not just a decision 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:49.640 should I stay or should I go. The body goes 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:54.680 into an absolute trauma mode in a fight or flight state, 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:57.200 and we have courts, all the stress worm on running 0:16:57.240 --> 0:16:59.480 for our body. We have adrenaline running for our body, 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:02.360 which is ane and what does that do? That, amongst 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:06.399 other things, disallows us to access our full frontal lobe 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:09.399 and make good decisions and use our full judgment. So 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:13.000 that is absolutely part of the reason that people are 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:16.600 unable to curate resources to go. The other we talked 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:20.080 about briefly at the top was logistical. Some people literally 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:21.400 have nowhere to go? Where am I going? 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.000 And if users do a good job of isolating you 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:27.520 away from your finances, such as you know Cassie. Cassie's case, 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:31.560 there were allegedly laptops taken away, her car taken away. 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:34.640 At those levels, you see things like that. At smaller levels, 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:38.639 your abuser could see something minor that you had a 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:40.359 little flaw about and pick at it. 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:44.520 Yes, that's right, that's right. Break you down your confidence 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:48.080 and your sense of agency and mastery and feel unable 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.320 to do anything by telling victims that they're stupid or 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:54.360 incapable and beating them down day after day after day, 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:56.800 so that even if the fat pattern isn't true, the 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:00.719 woman is absolutely capable. She internalizes is that she's not, 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:04.080 So you're right, logistic, she'll often go together. I have 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:06.399 nowhere to go. I have no ability to make money, 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:10.440 and intersects with that first tendant, which is shame if 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:13.439 I because people listening might say, well, go to your 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:15.320 best friend, go to your mom, go to your pastor 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:19.320 go to your therapist. That shame piece. I'm so ashamed 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:22.000 for how badly I feel about myself or allowing myself 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:24.479 to be in this position. My fight or flight system 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:26.600 has been triggered. I'm paralyzed. I can't do. 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:30.920 Anything, and also paralyzed feeling. For me when I was 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.679 in it was so significant that I don't think I 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:36.159 could have gone to Google and found a therapist and 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:38.560 waited for an appointment and gotten in when they could 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:41.399 see me. That sometimes could take a month, depending on 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:43.679 where you're at or what your access is. In the 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:46.240 exact moments when I was that shut down, I mean, 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:48.919 I had points where he would lock me outside of 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:52.000 the house to punish me if there was something I 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.360 did that he didn't like, and I would ring the doorbell, 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:57.200 he would undo the wiring, and so the doorbell wasn't 0:18:57.200 --> 0:18:59.679 working anymore, which I didn't realize at the time, but 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:02.160 through pattern of therapy, I realized a parent of mine 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:04.960 had done that to me in childhood. And then when 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:07.720 I would sit outside, I would realize, like, he has 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:11.040 me out here in next to nothing for clothing, so 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:14.119 I can't go running around the neighborhood looking like this, 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:19.160 I'm stuck. He's like, I'm being punished. And the only 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:21.679 way for me through the punishments were a drug that 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:27.159 I was given by somebody senior that made me be 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:29.720 able to go to sleep and forget about everything, called 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:33.600 ambient Yes. And so you know, in Cassie's state there 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:35.760 there was a lot of access to a lot of 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:39.440 different drugs, but I knew that without and sometimes I'd 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:42.120 be without my phone. The only thing that I would 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:44.280 bag for and I would need in any of those 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:47.880 settings was enough ambient to sleep and forget and wake 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:51.119 up and try again. And sometimes it took multiple times. 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:53.879 Sometimes I was out there overnight, but I would do 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:57.679 my best. And people would never believe this coming from me, 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:01.280 because they tend to see me as such a confident person. 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:04.720 I do not even understand how I got there. 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:08.120 Oh, Aubrey, I'm so so sorry to hear this. I'm 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:10.959 having a visceral reaction to that experience. 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:13.840 Me too, just thinking, so I've shed that person so 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:16.560 many times, all the layers of that human I don't 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:17.880 I ache for her. 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:20.440 I do too, And if you don't mind, I'll use 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:23.520 your experience to elucidate what we're talking about, which is 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:27.359 so in that moment, the intersection of factors, right, you 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:30.840 feel choiceless, resourceless, your body's in fight or flight. You're 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:34.400 completely paralyzed. You may even have what I alluded to before, 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:37.159 which is a SEVERER response collapse, which is actually a 0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:41.040 phenomenon where you basically go into a primitive state, a 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:42.880 completely regressed state, where you. 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:45.679 Can on the floor. I was on the floor, asked 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:47.240 for water. It was in a dog bowl. 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:51.320 I'm devastated for you. I'm devastated, and I really appreciate 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:54.880 your vulnerability for saying this out loud, because it's it's 0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:59.960 a horrifying truth, and yet maybe helps viewers and listeners 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:03.960 understand that someone is resilient and strong and you know, 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:07.240 sort of together as you are, and a peer can 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:10.159 have an intersection of factors occur where they've wind up 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:13.480 in this position. The other unique thing that happens in 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.680 abusive situations that I think is confusing people as they 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:19.480 listen to the trial, and you've briefly alluded to in 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:24.520 your own experience, is this pull to reunite with the abuser. Right, so, 0:21:24.720 --> 0:21:27.760 even in that moment, I would imagine all you wanted 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:30.480 was for him to come and get you and tell 0:21:30.480 --> 0:21:33.720 you you were in good standing again. And so what 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:35.800 is this? What is this that we want the abuser 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:37.760 to say, No, actually, I pick you, I choose you, 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:41.040 and can come back inside metaphorically and literally come back 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:44.239 in my in the fold. This and I believe this 0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:46.719 was discussed on the stand by doctor Hughes. This is 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:52.160 the well known but like overused notion of trauma bonding, 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:54.560 and let me say a little more about it, because 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:56.679 I think people use it so casually these days that 0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:59.600 it doesn't capture what it's meant to from a clinical standpoint. 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:04.040 But trauma bonding is around the notion that abuse often 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:08.240 follows a cycle right where there's tension building, the victim 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:11.400 is trying to please and please and please. The explosion happens, 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:15.159 and the intense abuse occurs, whether it's physical or emotional, 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:18.639 mental or both, and then there's the pull for the 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:24.199 victim to reunite. It's essentially getting they're fill of nutrients, 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:27.520 their lifeline. When am I going to get brought back 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:31.280 to life? They feel like they're choiceless, optionless, there's no 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:34.840 other resources or connection or people available because of all 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:36.040 the things I just said. 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:39.960 Or their most important self exists within being with that man. 0:22:40.000 --> 0:22:44.760 That's right, And so that pull to get reconnected and 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:48.919 get back in the honeymoon period, which is almost always 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:52.399 part of what happens after an enormous explosion. The abuser 0:22:52.960 --> 0:22:56.240 feels some degree of shame and guilt and will shower 0:22:56.480 --> 0:22:59.840 the victim with all the things that make them feel love, 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:02.639 whether it's tangible goods or. 0:23:02.800 --> 0:23:05.159