Speaker 1: Amy and TJ presents Aubrey Oday covering the Ditty trial.
Speaker 1: Hey everyone, welcome back to Amy and TJ presents me
Speaker 1: Aubrey O'Day covering the Didty trial. And as always, our
Speaker 1: coverage of the Didty Trial continues. So I just want
Speaker 1: to let everyone know that I'm flying solo today and
Speaker 1: that TJ and Amya are on a much needed vacation,
Speaker 1: and I can't wait to announce my guest today who
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to speak to. Her name is doctor
Speaker 1: Hillary Goldscher, and she is a clinical psychologist and expert
Speaker 1: in trauma, recovery and emotional healing. She has over ten
Speaker 1: years of experienced in psychotherapy services. She specializes in the
Speaker 1: treatment of couples, relationships, depression, anxiety, trauma, grief, and eating disorders. Hillary, Girl,
Speaker 1: I think I have experienced almost all of these, So
Speaker 1: I am so happy to talk to you.
Speaker 2: I got you, I got you. Thank you so much
Speaker 2: for having me.
Speaker 1: Thank you for being here. So I specifically felt very
Speaker 1: passionate about discussing last week's testimony, in particular the forensic
Speaker 1: psychologist Dohn Hughes. Let me first establish John Hughes testified
Speaker 1: for the prosecution she testified to trauma, bonding, delayed reporting,
Speaker 1: substance use as a coping mechanism. The Internet is buzzing
Speaker 1: on this conversation. I think it's so important to establish
Speaker 1: with you at the gate, why women stay with their
Speaker 1: abusers as it pertains to the Ditty trial.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the question that's sort of floating around
Speaker 2: the culture right now. And while I'm disturbed and devastated
Speaker 2: about the alleged crimes against the myriad of women involved,
Speaker 2: on the sort of silver lining is that we get
Speaker 2: to talk about this.
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: The question you just asked is complex, and a lot
Speaker 2: of people, unfortunately, are having an opportunity to think through
Speaker 2: this very nuanced paradigm. Because if you haven't been through it,
Speaker 2: or you don't know someone who's been through it, it's
Speaker 2: a fair enough question or a fair enough set of
Speaker 2: complex factors that get one who is curious and trying
Speaker 2: to understand this complex situation to ask why I don't
Speaker 2: get it. Why would someone say when things are bad
Speaker 2: and scared, yes, yes, that can lead to blaming the
Speaker 2: victim or minimizing their trauma, and it's a really negative
Speaker 2: vicious cycle for victims and for the paradigm of domestic abuse.
Speaker 2: So I'm happy we're talking about it. So I have
Speaker 2: a lot to say about why, So feel free to interrupt.
Speaker 1: You can go for it. As I was listening to
Speaker 1: her testimony, I found myself looking back on many of
Speaker 1: my relationships and understanding many levels to all of her
Speaker 1: conversation that she had in testimony that she had, including
Speaker 1: utilizing sex as a love language for somebody who had
Speaker 1: groomed and established with me that that's how I can
Speaker 1: get his attention. So when text messages that say, hey,
Speaker 1: I want more, I love you, I can't live without you,
Speaker 1: let's make the next one more wild. This is making
Speaker 1: so many people react in a way where they think,
Speaker 1: clearly she wanted it, Clearly she's asking, Clearly she was willing,
Speaker 1: and we all know that there are absolutely established events
Speaker 1: that were not willing and that we're not wanted. But
Speaker 1: for the ones that were during cross examination, I think
Speaker 1: it's good to start breaking down why women do that
Speaker 1: and how they find themselves in a position. Women and men,
Speaker 1: by the way, because this isn't gender exclusive.
Speaker 2: I'm really glad you pointed that out, because obviously there's
Speaker 2: shame encircling men who are victims of domestic violence given
Speaker 2: the full of male female roles that society establishes.
Speaker 1: But you're right, and by the way, I want to
Speaker 1: jump in with you there. When I first started this process,
Speaker 1: when Homeland Security came to me, I knew more, potentially
Speaker 1: knew more alleged male victims than women. And still potentially
Speaker 1: you know alleged victims. I know more men than women.
Speaker 1: It's so much harder. And when I hear them discuss
Speaker 1: how what they fear in coming forward, it's a completely
Speaker 1: different set of things than women do. But we know
Speaker 1: that what females face, which is what we're seeing right now,
Speaker 1: which is a bunch of people calling you names and
Speaker 1: making fun of the things that you would do in
Speaker 1: private sexual behavior with your partner. And you know, you
Speaker 1: can only imagine how much more complex it goes on
Speaker 1: the other side and all of the stigmas that are
Speaker 1: associated there. But I find that men even have a
Speaker 1: harder time women have come out, and so it is
Speaker 1: a little bit more of a conversation. But you do
Speaker 1: know instantly when you come out, you likely the first
Speaker 1: thing you will experience is being slatshamed and not believed.
Speaker 1: If you're with somebody of a higher status, more power,
Speaker 1: or more of a fan base or a liking.
Speaker 2: Before I get into of the mapro buckets of why
Speaker 2: people stay, I'll start where you ended, because shame is
Speaker 2: such a thematic reason why both men and women stay.
Speaker 2: When one quote comes out via public or criminal accusation,
Speaker 2: or just even telling their community that they've been involved
Speaker 2: in a domestic abusive situation, there is deep rooted shame
Speaker 2: internalized because of their own inability to leave, their admission
Speaker 2: that they stayed and endured abuse, and the potential reaction
Speaker 2: of the community around them.
Speaker 1: And let me stop with you on that. Right there,
Speaker 1: I was in an abusive relationship. I tried to tell
Speaker 1: people in a very like on a larger level, and
Speaker 1: the response from both the person that was involved in
Speaker 1: it and the people around was if it was so bad,
Speaker 1: then why did you stay? That to me was always
Speaker 1: something that would make my blood boil, and I would
Speaker 1: try to keep the more almost that you try to
Speaker 1: explain that, the more they sit back and think that
Speaker 1: you're full of it. It was so difficult for me
Speaker 1: to explain. Nowadays, when I hear somebody say that, it's
Speaker 1: an instant trigger for me to be like, oh, you're
Speaker 1: definitely abusive, and she's definitely been abused. That line alone,
Speaker 1: for me, is a tell. Now maybe it's not always
Speaker 1: a tell, but for me, it's a pretty big tell.
Speaker 1: And I hate that we're getting caught up in that
Speaker 1: place because there's tons of different reasons. Please talk to
Speaker 1: me about what they are and let let our audience
Speaker 1: know what they are. There's no general trait of anyone victim.
Speaker 1: I'm so different than other victims that I know, how
Speaker 1: I grew up, racially, gender, all of the above. It's
Speaker 1: just a way that you are, the way that you're groomed,
Speaker 1: the process in which you fall for these people, and
Speaker 1: you experience the abuse, it can trigger something in your
Speaker 1: mind that almost creates this attachment through fear, through isolation.
Speaker 1: For me, isolation was a big part of it. I
Speaker 1: didn't have anybody to lean on, so discuss what those
Speaker 1: factors are.
Speaker 2: Ooh, you're so well versed, and I'm going to cover back.
Speaker 1: Fortunately, you know, for those out there that don't understand this,
Speaker 1: you know, I love that you have made very good
Speaker 1: decisions for yourself and that you were able to avoid
Speaker 1: these types of people in the world. But please make
Speaker 1: space for the possibility that these things are very real
Speaker 1: for other people.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's a great foundation to lay forth as I
Speaker 2: begin this discussion, which is for those who are listening
Speaker 2: that haven't had this experience or don't know anyone in
Speaker 2: their sphere that have, just have an open mind. It
Speaker 2: is a complex notion, but take a listen to the
Speaker 2: set of factors that can intersect that can result in
Speaker 2: really strong, amazing women becoming victim over a very victims
Speaker 2: over a very long period of time. So let's kind
Speaker 2: of start on the macro. There are a number of
Speaker 2: reasons and they usually pool together that result in women
Speaker 2: or men staying in an abusive relationship, and they fall
Speaker 2: on or the following categories. There may be more. I
Speaker 2: might miss one or two, but these from my anecdotal,
Speaker 2: empirical research and experience are the top ones, which are
Speaker 2: psychological and emotional. We'll get into all of these logistical, financial,
Speaker 2: physical safety.
Speaker 1: Does the first one run into childhood trauma?
Speaker 2: Yes, we're going to start there, right, psychological and emotional factors.
Speaker 2: So often, not always, but often a victim of abuse
Speaker 2: comes from a family and the details and the narrative
Speaker 2: and the stories vary, the demographics, the socioeconomic status. But
Speaker 2: at the core is some version of abandonment, some version
Speaker 2: of an internalized sense of low self worth or low value,
Speaker 2: and either an implicit or explicit edict to find a scenario,
Speaker 2: a relationship, a partner that sort of confirms and of
Speaker 2: firms that they're okay, that they're a value you, that
Speaker 2: they're worthy, and if they stringed up with someone that
Speaker 2: can provide that at times, but there's emotional and physical
Speaker 2: rent to pay, through verbal abuse, through physical abuse. Sometimes
Speaker 2: the person can't garner the internal resources to value their
Speaker 2: emotional and physical safety over the sort of deposit of
Speaker 2: self worth that comes when the person chooses them, when
Speaker 2: the person is kind to them, when the person is
Speaker 2: bonded to them. And this is a complex psychological sort
Speaker 2: of notion, but it boils down to pathologically low self worth.
Speaker 1: And self worth also does not have a beauty standard.
Speaker 1: There are a lot of people that look at Cassie
Speaker 1: and don't understand how she could have ever had any
Speaker 1: low self worth. She's a perfectly beautiful looking woman according
Speaker 1: to social standards. But I do want to make clear
Speaker 1: that you know I when I would experience it, it
Speaker 1: was exactly what you said due to abandonment from childhood.
Speaker 1: And even when I met Diddy relating this back to
Speaker 1: Puff himself, he I've said this so many times, but
Speaker 1: if you were to ask me now, who would you
Speaker 1: want to revisit in your past? Of all the accomplishments
Speaker 1: you've had, who's praise would you want to revisit that
Speaker 1: made you feel the most full? And still at forty one,
Speaker 1: after tons of fucking therapy and tons of feeling and
Speaker 1: moving to Bali for two years and doing every little
Speaker 1: thing that I possibly could, because talking to a person
Speaker 1: and all of the other things just wasn't enough, I
Speaker 1: still would say Puff. And that's because he's just so
Speaker 1: I keep trying to really describe this to the viewers
Speaker 1: because it seems so unreasonable almost, but he's so all consuming.
Speaker 1: I've only met a few very powerful people in life,
Speaker 1: and I've met them all mostly that steal the air
Speaker 1: out of the room. You almost have this palpable rea
Speaker 1: like when they come in, because you're gasping for air
Speaker 1: because their presence is so big. Now, in that case,
Speaker 1: that's a very extreme case of somebody absorbing a room.
Speaker 1: But I've met people on everyday levels that I can
Speaker 1: see in their relationship are just exhausting all the air
Speaker 1: in the room. It's the same type of feeling on
Speaker 1: a large scale. But when Puff would be proud of
Speaker 1: you and be impressed with you because he's so, he
Speaker 1: rarely was. He mostly was very clear about all of
Speaker 1: his dislikes and all the things that you weren't doing well,
Speaker 1: and all the things that you needed to fix. And
Speaker 1: it wasn't healthy language that was being used or healthy.
Speaker 1: It's grooming, is what it is. Putting us in scenarios
Speaker 1: where our dreams are held over our heads and making
Speaker 1: us do a ridiculous things in order to prove ourselves
Speaker 1: time and time again. It was called reality TV, and
Speaker 1: a network and a production and a whole bunch of
Speaker 1: other people signed off on it and thought it was
Speaker 1: fun and a great look for television. And unfortunately, I
Speaker 1: think it is also part of the response. It needs
Speaker 1: to take accountability for itself in regards to how many
Speaker 1: people looked up at a television then and decided that
Speaker 1: to be life as it is, to decided for that
Speaker 1: to be an example for them in one way or another.
Speaker 1: You were seeing this very powerful person. A lot of
Speaker 1: people that were enamored by his presence, doing all kinds
Speaker 1: of ridiculous shit, continuously having to prove themselves in ways
Speaker 1: that are unreasonable, like run Central Park until two of
Speaker 1: you fall and that's who's going home. These are unreasonable things.
Speaker 1: I don't know any other artists that didn't grow up
Speaker 1: under that situation that had to do that or was
Speaker 1: expected to do that.
Speaker 2: Well, you're talking about is the power balance. Imbalance was
Speaker 2: normalized and sanctioned and popular, right.
Speaker 1: Popular, popular amongst people that wanted to watch it, or
Speaker 1: I wouldn't ever returned for that many seasons because because
Speaker 1: they can't keep a show on that no one wants
Speaker 1: to watch. As a society, we feed into such toxic narratives,
Speaker 1: and those narratives play out right in front of us
Speaker 1: on our televisions. The way that I saw that I
Speaker 1: returned back to a healthy state was I had to
Speaker 1: disconnect from this country. I had to leave and go
Speaker 1: to another country and live there and disconnect socials and
Speaker 1: everything and get out of the way of the way
Speaker 1: that we are socialized. And nowadays our phones are our currency.
Speaker 1: Your content is your life if you're in entertainment. We
Speaker 1: have such an addiction to these devices that are truly
Speaker 1: giving us a lot of unhealthy messages. So what do
Speaker 1: you advise to people who are seeing shows on television
Speaker 1: or seeing articles on their phones without you know, we've
Speaker 1: had discussions on this show about headlines and narrating people's
Speaker 1: lives without any proof or reaching out to find out
Speaker 1: if anything is fast actual, just blanket making statements that
Speaker 1: aren't even true. What is your opinion for those people
Speaker 1: that are so lost in that toxic cycle that they
Speaker 1: could be definitely in a position to be I think
Speaker 1: what it is personally is creating an identity for people.
Speaker 1: When you're depending on those sources for an identity, you
Speaker 1: could end up on a pretty bad path in life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a big ask for people to disconnect from
Speaker 2: their affiliation around those narratives. It's seductive, very seductive.
Speaker 1: Is that all it takes? Seduction?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean it intersects with a number of factors, right,
Speaker 2: probably anxiety, restlessness, boredom, low self worth. Right, Imbibing those
Speaker 2: headlines and becoming attached to those narratives offers us a
Speaker 2: version of a dopamine hit. Right, It's an escape from
Speaker 2: our own reality and gives us sometimes an opportunity to
Speaker 2: be righteous. And judge, which can give us an avenue
Speaker 2: to escape from our own.
Speaker 1: Pain and give you a high to be able to
Speaker 1: be somebody that knows better. You're getting a little bit
Speaker 1: of a serotonin boost almost.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: Question for people out there that are trying to get
Speaker 1: out of a toxic situation or out of a situation
Speaker 1: where they're being abused. I have a lot of people
Speaker 1: writing me right now that are inside of abusive relationships,
Speaker 1: and I see the spiral. I don't have quick advice.
Speaker 2: Let me do a quick summary of why people are there,
Speaker 2: and then we'll go into how do you begin to
Speaker 2: even think about extracting? So we talked about that emotional
Speaker 2: psychological factor briefly, and I could do hours about this
Speaker 2: because it's highly complex. Not everyone who's had abandonment in
Speaker 2: their childhood end up abuse of relationships, of course that's true.
Speaker 2: But people who end up in abusive relationships often have
Speaker 2: this as a background, yes, And so that's one of
Speaker 2: the aspects that we more often than not see. The
Speaker 2: other we address briefly, which is guilt and shame, the
Speaker 2: internalized guilt for being someone that would subject themselves to
Speaker 2: these dynamics and allow themselves to be a victim are overwhelming,
Speaker 2: can cause emotional paralysis, what we call a severe collapse response,
Speaker 2: where you're literally internally and physically in a fetal position,
Speaker 2: unable to think, unable to act. The entire nervous system
Speaker 2: shuts down, goes into a fight or flight solely because
Speaker 2: of the shame, let alone the emotional and physical abuse
Speaker 2: you may be enduring. So it's not just a decision
Speaker 2: should I stay or should I go. The body goes
Speaker 2: into an absolute trauma mode in a fight or flight state,
Speaker 2: and we have courts, all the stress worm on running
Speaker 2: for our body. We have adrenaline running for our body,
Speaker 2: which is ane and what does that do? That, amongst
Speaker 2: other things, disallows us to access our full frontal lobe
Speaker 2: and make good decisions and use our full judgment. So
Speaker 2: that is absolutely part of the reason that people are
Speaker 2: unable to curate resources to go. The other we talked
Speaker 2: about briefly at the top was logistical. Some people literally
Speaker 2: have nowhere to go? Where am I going?
Speaker 1: And if users do a good job of isolating you
Speaker 1: away from your finances, such as you know Cassie. Cassie's case,
Speaker 1: there were allegedly laptops taken away, her car taken away.
Speaker 1: At those levels, you see things like that. At smaller levels,
Speaker 1: your abuser could see something minor that you had a
Speaker 1: little flaw about and pick at it.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, that's right. Break you down your confidence
Speaker 2: and your sense of agency and mastery and feel unable
Speaker 2: to do anything by telling victims that they're stupid or
Speaker 2: incapable and beating them down day after day after day,
Speaker 2: so that even if the fat pattern isn't true, the
Speaker 2: woman is absolutely capable. She internalizes is that she's not,
Speaker 2: So you're right, logistic, she'll often go together. I have
Speaker 2: nowhere to go. I have no ability to make money,
Speaker 2: and intersects with that first tendant, which is shame if
Speaker 2: I because people listening might say, well, go to your
Speaker 2: best friend, go to your mom, go to your pastor
Speaker 2: go to your therapist. That shame piece. I'm so ashamed
Speaker 2: for how badly I feel about myself or allowing myself
Speaker 2: to be in this position. My fight or flight system
Speaker 2: has been triggered. I'm paralyzed. I can't do.
Speaker 1: Anything, and also paralyzed feeling. For me when I was
Speaker 1: in it was so significant that I don't think I
Speaker 1: could have gone to Google and found a therapist and
Speaker 1: waited for an appointment and gotten in when they could
Speaker 1: see me. That sometimes could take a month, depending on
Speaker 1: where you're at or what your access is. In the
Speaker 1: exact moments when I was that shut down, I mean,
Speaker 1: I had points where he would lock me outside of
Speaker 1: the house to punish me if there was something I
Speaker 1: did that he didn't like, and I would ring the doorbell,
Speaker 1: he would undo the wiring, and so the doorbell wasn't
Speaker 1: working anymore, which I didn't realize at the time, but
Speaker 1: through pattern of therapy, I realized a parent of mine
Speaker 1: had done that to me in childhood. And then when
Speaker 1: I would sit outside, I would realize, like, he has
Speaker 1: me out here in next to nothing for clothing, so
Speaker 1: I can't go running around the neighborhood looking like this,
Speaker 1: I'm stuck. He's like, I'm being punished. And the only
Speaker 1: way for me through the punishments were a drug that
Speaker 1: I was given by somebody senior that made me be
Speaker 1: able to go to sleep and forget about everything, called
Speaker 1: ambient Yes. And so you know, in Cassie's state there
Speaker 1: there was a lot of access to a lot of
Speaker 1: different drugs, but I knew that without and sometimes I'd
Speaker 1: be without my phone. The only thing that I would
Speaker 1: bag for and I would need in any of those
Speaker 1: settings was enough ambient to sleep and forget and wake
Speaker 1: up and try again. And sometimes it took multiple times.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I was out there overnight, but I would do
Speaker 1: my best. And people would never believe this coming from me,
Speaker 1: because they tend to see me as such a confident person.
Speaker 1: I do not even understand how I got there.
Speaker 2: Oh, Aubrey, I'm so so sorry to hear this. I'm
Speaker 2: having a visceral reaction to that experience.
Speaker 1: Me too, just thinking, so I've shed that person so
Speaker 1: many times, all the layers of that human I don't
Speaker 1: I ache for her.
Speaker 2: I do too, And if you don't mind, I'll use
Speaker 2: your experience to elucidate what we're talking about, which is
Speaker 2: so in that moment, the intersection of factors, right, you
Speaker 2: feel choiceless, resourceless, your body's in fight or flight. You're
Speaker 2: completely paralyzed. You may even have what I alluded to before,
Speaker 2: which is a SEVERER response collapse, which is actually a
Speaker 2: phenomenon where you basically go into a primitive state, a
Speaker 2: completely regressed state, where you.
Speaker 1: Can on the floor. I was on the floor, asked
Speaker 1: for water. It was in a dog bowl.
Speaker 2: I'm devastated for you. I'm devastated, and I really appreciate
Speaker 2: your vulnerability for saying this out loud, because it's it's
Speaker 2: a horrifying truth, and yet maybe helps viewers and listeners
Speaker 2: understand that someone is resilient and strong and you know,
Speaker 2: sort of together as you are, and a peer can
Speaker 2: have an intersection of factors occur where they've wind up
Speaker 2: in this position. The other unique thing that happens in
Speaker 2: abusive situations that I think is confusing people as they
Speaker 2: listen to the trial, and you've briefly alluded to in
Speaker 2: your own experience, is this pull to reunite with the abuser. Right, so,
Speaker 2: even in that moment, I would imagine all you wanted
Speaker 2: was for him to come and get you and tell
Speaker 2: you you were in good standing again. And so what
Speaker 2: is this? What is this that we want the abuser
Speaker 2: to say, No, actually, I pick you, I choose you,
Speaker 2: and can come back inside metaphorically and literally come back
Speaker 2: in my in the fold. This and I believe this
Speaker 2: was discussed on the stand by doctor Hughes. This is
Speaker 2: the well known but like overused notion of trauma bonding,
Speaker 2: and let me say a little more about it, because
Speaker 2: I think people use it so casually these days that
Speaker 2: it doesn't capture what it's meant to from a clinical standpoint.
Speaker 2: But trauma bonding is around the notion that abuse often
Speaker 2: follows a cycle right where there's tension building, the victim
Speaker 2: is trying to please and please and please. The explosion happens,
Speaker 2: and the intense abuse occurs, whether it's physical or emotional,
Speaker 2: mental or both, and then there's the pull for the
Speaker 2: victim to reunite. It's essentially getting they're fill of nutrients,
Speaker 2: their lifeline. When am I going to get brought back
Speaker 2: to life? They feel like they're choiceless, optionless, there's no
Speaker 2: other resources or connection or people available because of all
Speaker 2: the things I just said.
Speaker 1: Or their most important self exists within being with that man.
Speaker 2: That's right, And so that pull to get reconnected and
Speaker 2: get back in the honeymoon period, which is almost always
Speaker 2: part of what happens after an enormous explosion. The abuser
Speaker 2: feels some degree of shame and guilt and will shower
Speaker 2: the victim with all the things that make them feel love,
Speaker 2: whether it's tangible goods or.
Speaker 1: Oh man, I came home to the brand new phone.
Speaker 1: There was a display. I posted it to show how
Speaker 1: much I was loved. Yes, I just didn't see all
Speaker 1: the things that I had to go through to get
Speaker 1: to that day.
Speaker 2: Yes. And so for someone going back to our original
Speaker 2: discussion round abandonment and early childhood trauma, getting that honeymoon
Speaker 2: and that sort of deluge of the showing of love
Speaker 2: and affection is so compelling and seductive. That's part it's
Speaker 2: not the only reason, but that's part of why the
Speaker 2: cycle stays intact. And that intermittent reinforcement of love and
Speaker 2: cruelty creates a powerful emotional dependency.
Speaker 1: Yes, stronger than drugs. I wish it could have been
Speaker 1: easier than drugs. It's stronger than drugs to get over.
Speaker 1: If you watch intervention now, put that times five billion.
Speaker 1: That's what somebody who was in an abusive, toxic cycle
Speaker 1: times five billion is trying to recover from. It's so difficult.
Speaker 1: I remember, even I did everything, and I mean I
Speaker 1: would separate, I would get with people, I would get
Speaker 1: into therapy. I luckily have a best friend who's a
Speaker 1: therapist who would connect me back in and I sat
Speaker 1: with a therapist in LA that was like, you know,
Speaker 1: off insurance five hundred and fifty bucks an hour. She's,
Speaker 1: you know, a therapist to all the celebrities, and she
Speaker 1: would have known exactly what it was. I found myself
Speaker 1: with therapists a lot of times that didn't that I
Speaker 1: could see looking at the clock, or that I could
Speaker 1: see didn't truly haven't. They would go like wow, really
Speaker 1: like they couldn't understand just what I went through with
Speaker 1: Diddy because it was I was talking in such extremes.
Speaker 1: I could see their level of shock, and I realized, like, oh,
Speaker 1: I can't even take them past this point. They're not
Speaker 1: going to be able to understand it. And then I
Speaker 1: noticed when I went to this woman that I spent
Speaker 1: all of this money and she would give me these
Speaker 1: gems and I would leave and I would feel confident
Speaker 1: on my drive home from Malibu. The whole time I
Speaker 1: knew it. But by the time six or seven or
Speaker 1: eight rolled around, and my abandonment sunk again, and my loneliness,
Speaker 1: and because being in this industry and being a celebrity
Speaker 1: is super isolating in general, I start to want that
Speaker 1: feeling of what I thought it was is my best
Speaker 1: friend back, my happiest highest self was when we were connected.
Speaker 1: It was the most it felt like it felt like
Speaker 1: somebody loved me for real, not like a fan's telling
Speaker 1: me I love you all over the place that never
Speaker 1: resonated as real to me. So I remember getting running
Speaker 1: right back to him, and I remember getting in the
Speaker 1: car out of the airport and him laughing and saying
Speaker 1: to me, look at my brand new watch, Babe. It
Speaker 1: costs as much money, babe. Look at babe, I have
Speaker 1: a new role as babe. You spent all that money
Speaker 1: on therapy and I got a new watch, babe, But
Speaker 1: you're still here with me, babe. Hamp babe, good choice, babe.
Speaker 1: And I remember thinking to myself, It's true. I have
Speaker 1: spent as much money as that watches trying to get
Speaker 1: over this person. And at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: a therapist cannot They can guide you to the water,
Speaker 1: but you have to drink, which is why I ended
Speaker 1: up going to ball and getting out and trying other
Speaker 1: sources to check in with myself. Mostly the disconnection was
Speaker 1: the important part, but I had to get out of
Speaker 1: it somehow, and therapy was just not working enough because
Speaker 1: they can only tell you as much as they can
Speaker 1: tell you, but you have to want the change, and
Speaker 1: you have to be able to make the change when
Speaker 1: you leave there. You can feel so empowered in the sessions,
Speaker 1: but I found and that's for anybody that maybe is
Speaker 1: in therapy, feeling that power and then leaving and going
Speaker 1: right back. I found myself doing that for years.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, you're highlighting a really significant aspect of this,
Speaker 2: which is the addictive nature. And I'm not using that
Speaker 2: term in quotes. I'm talking about science, chemistry, what happens
Speaker 2: in the brain. And we alluded to this earlier. But
Speaker 2: just like when you use drugs or drink or gamble,
Speaker 2: et cetera. And there's I'm sort of oversimplifying it, but
Speaker 2: there's a version of a dopamine and a serotonin hit,
Speaker 2: which is the feel good chemical inside of us. The
Speaker 2: exact same thing happens during the reunification process with an abuser.
Speaker 2: For all of the reasons that I was just describing
Speaker 2: and more that we can go into if we find
Speaker 2: the time, but it is the same process. And so
Speaker 2: you're talking about literal detox I don't mean detalks and quotes.
Speaker 2: You're talking about in part to truly get away from
Speaker 2: an abusive relationship, you have to detox, which means you
Speaker 2: have to be away from the person, and whatever that takes,
Speaker 2: whether it's moving to another country or some curation of
Speaker 2: resources amongst your community, can change from scenario to scenario,
Speaker 2: of course, but that's what you're talking about. And in
Speaker 2: the absence of true detox ie, not being with the person,
Speaker 2: you're not going to be able to truly go away.
Speaker 2: Why because your brain will seek the hit of the
Speaker 2: serotonin dopamine time and time again in a very similar
Speaker 2: way that an attic does. And so conceptualizing that way
Speaker 2: first helps people understand as they're observing and thinking about
Speaker 2: it from the outside, but also it helps people in
Speaker 2: it perhaps think about resources in a different way. Who
Speaker 2: specializes in this arena is going to be very useful.
Speaker 2: But the curation of resources to help with removal, yesation
Speaker 2: has to be incredibly robust, which I don't want to
Speaker 2: end our time together. I know we're not almost done,
Speaker 2: but without saying this, which is the final book, critical
Speaker 2: piece that I'm thinking about around why people stay is
Speaker 2: the fear of retaliation.
Speaker 1: And that's huge with Cassie.
Speaker 2: Keep going, Yes, Empirically, empirically, data statistics The most dangerous
Speaker 2: period for abuse victims is when they're thinking about leaving,
Speaker 2: When they leave, and in the aftermath.
Speaker 1: The aftermath is a big one that we don't talk
Speaker 1: about enough. The aftermath. You know, you can't get those
Speaker 1: highs anymore, so you're dependent on You got to find
Speaker 1: something for the high or you've got to be ripe
Speaker 1: and ready for and change is not an easy thing
Speaker 1: to just snap your fingers and go to. As you
Speaker 1: get older, you learn that you have more control over
Speaker 1: your brain than you think. But when you're younger and
Speaker 1: you're still learning, I would look around anywhere and everywhere
Speaker 1: for it. And unfortunately, specifically in Cassie's case, there were
Speaker 1: so many things that there were so many addictions around
Speaker 1: her that she had many things to overcome. It seems
Speaker 1: like everybody's found had to find ways outside of puff
Speaker 1: to move into, places to move into that would provide
Speaker 1: their sense of self any more sense of self meaning
Speaker 1: you can wake up and feel joy and happiness just
Speaker 1: within yourself.
Speaker 2: So you're talking about two pieces. One is the internal
Speaker 2: risk of the victim once they leave recklessly searching for
Speaker 2: that high.
Speaker 1: Yes, for anyone that didn't understand what she had to
Speaker 1: say in regards to being in fear of him, or
Speaker 1: they didn't believe it, you can believe it after kid
Speaker 1: Cutty's testimony. Those are two different people and the result
Speaker 1: of both the two different statuses, two different relationships with
Speaker 1: the man, and yet the common denominator and all of
Speaker 1: it is force violence, extreme violence, and people not even
Speaker 1: coming forward and wanting to tell on the person or
Speaker 1: create a proper trail amongst the public of the events
Speaker 1: and the behaviors out of fear of retaliation. So it
Speaker 1: existed on all levels with him. Now, I want to
Speaker 1: take you through before we finish the cross examination, so
Speaker 1: we could kind of go over the way that the
Speaker 1: defense team is kind of using a multi prong strategy
Speaker 1: in regards to obviously the denial of the allegations they've
Speaker 1: categorically denied them or learning I don't know, not so true.
Speaker 1: They are attacking her credibility. We've seen that on the stand.
Speaker 1: We've seen that with multiple witnesses, financial motivations, career opportunities, inconsistencies,
Speaker 1: and testimony, continuing to seek the relationship with puff after
Speaker 1: you've already gone over. While all of those would occur specifically,
Speaker 1: a lot of people have issues with Don Hughes. What
Speaker 1: are your thoughts on that she kind of got beaten
Speaker 1: up during the Amber Johnny trial that left all of
Speaker 1: us sitting on the edge of our seats because there
Speaker 1: was such an admiration for Johnny Depp. Anyone that was
Speaker 1: explaining her behavior that they, you know, some people felt
Speaker 1: was didn't come off as sincere. Don Hughes took a
Speaker 1: lot of heat when trying to explain that they have
Speaker 1: made the criticism, specifically in this case, that she did
Speaker 1: not interview Cassie, she did not interview Ditty, she has
Speaker 1: not sat down with anyone involved in this, and she
Speaker 1: does not know their personal records, health records, mental health records.
Speaker 1: Is there some kind of is there something to say
Speaker 1: for that defense, for that specific defense, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Mean I don't think we can out of hand dismiss
Speaker 2: the truth that she didn't directly interview the victim or
Speaker 2: the alleged perpetrator.
Speaker 1: Would you be able to believe her in your profession
Speaker 1: even if she hadn't done that.
Speaker 2: It's common practice. It happens all the time. I mean,
Speaker 2: if you didn't know that, if you look at many
Speaker 2: cases that are not high profile, there is often not always,
Speaker 2: but often an expert brought in who has not had
Speaker 2: access to anyone on the defense or anyone in the
Speaker 2: prosecution side. So it's an argument that is utilized often,
Speaker 2: and so it makes sense the defense would raise it,
Speaker 2: and in my opinion, you would stipulate to that. Absolutely.
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to suggest I have rights or the
Speaker 2: alleged perpetrator. I clearly have not. And just like myself,
Speaker 2: if you have expertise clinically anecdotally over many, many decades.
Speaker 1: You know you can you can have an educated opinion
Speaker 1: on what's going on here, No question. They did say
Speaker 1: she's only ever worked with victims, never with the abusers themselves,
Speaker 1: so to get a full fair perspective of both sides,
Speaker 1: they feel that would have been necessary. Do you agree
Speaker 1: with that or no?
Speaker 2: Again, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand as a truth,
Speaker 2: but most, not all, but most clinicians that specialize in
Speaker 2: domestic violence, and clinicians might might comment that this isn't
Speaker 2: true for them, But most, if not many, either treat
Speaker 2: victims or perpetrators and don't necessarily treat both.
Speaker 1: Because that why is that I would want a full perspective,
Speaker 1: almost to if there is any saving grace on an
Speaker 1: abuser's side, which, listen, I'm not a psychologist, so I
Speaker 1: can say what everybody thinks. That sounds like bullshit to me.
Speaker 1: But if I'm being fair and I'm wanting to stay
Speaker 1: as professional as possible, I'd want to hear both sides
Speaker 1: out and understand the mentality. I don't know that we
Speaker 1: need to understand the mentality of an abuser, but is
Speaker 1: there something to that.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's sort of a professional reason, which is
Speaker 2: less interesting that when you have areas of expertise, you
Speaker 2: become hyper focused on that particular area. So if you're
Speaker 2: an expert in working with domestic violence victims, you just
Speaker 2: do a deep dive into that particular population, and how
Speaker 2: you would treat them and conceptualize those cases would be
Speaker 2: wildly different than how you would treat and conceptualize the
Speaker 2: case of an abuser. So some of it is just
Speaker 2: sort of professional trajectory and really focusing on a particular
Speaker 2: area of expertise, which many clinicians do, including myself, on
Speaker 2: various topics. Like a clinician might say, I'm an expert
Speaker 2: in trauma and that's sort of all I do. I
Speaker 2: don't really do specifically depression anxiety, even though those are
Speaker 2: aspects of trauma, for example. So it's not unheard of
Speaker 2: in my world to focus on one or two arenas
Speaker 2: and have it be your area of focus. You, as
Speaker 2: a clinician treating victims have besides someone who only treats
Speaker 2: or also treats perpetrators or alleged perpetrators, You have as
Speaker 2: much insight as possible relative to the normal practitioner into
Speaker 2: the world of and the patterns of abusers. So while
Speaker 2: you might not work directly with them, you have a
Speaker 2: lot of anecdotal and clinical data from your work with victims,
Speaker 2: or collaborative efforts with all of the people involved.
Speaker 1: Or even your overall understanding of abuse in general. You
Speaker 1: maybe don't even have to specifically work with either side
Speaker 1: and your profession. You have enough information to understand the patterns,
Speaker 1: and unfortunately, what people don't realize is these patterns are
Speaker 1: pretty common and pretty standard and pretty repetitive when it
Speaker 1: comes to every case. There are certain things that thread
Speaker 1: through even that if you feel two cases are completely different.
Speaker 1: Now question, is it possible that somebody could make up
Speaker 1: and lie about everything that they're experiencing and an abuser
Speaker 1: could be wrongly accused. Do you see that happening a
Speaker 1: lot or is it very rare?
Speaker 2: I would say it's somewhere in the middle. I don't
Speaker 2: think it happens a lot in like clinical and anecdotal experience.
Speaker 2: That's quite a thing to put yourself through to come
Speaker 2: out as a victim and have it not be true.
Speaker 2: And there are other psychological factors going on. If that's
Speaker 2: the case, it's not unheard of. It hasn't never played
Speaker 2: out double negative, but so it occurs less than occasionally
Speaker 2: a pretty small amount, very small amount. And in this case,
Speaker 2: in the ditty case, there is a myriad of it
Speaker 2: appears of collaborating evidence that's been submitted in court in
Speaker 2: terms of eyewitnesses and texts and videos, etc. That suggests
Speaker 2: this isn't the case, But yes, it has a.
Speaker 1: Before Okay, So question, last question for anyone out there
Speaker 1: right now, if I could revisit many me and anyone
Speaker 1: out there that is currently in this in this situation,
Speaker 1: or they're identifying or feeling very triggered by what they're seeing, obviously,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, I would suggest look around you and
Speaker 1: see how recognizable the things you're seeing in front of
Speaker 1: you or looking at in front of you, if they're
Speaker 1: mirroring anything that you're experiencing currently around you, even people
Speaker 1: that speak about it in a certain way, I would
Speaker 1: pay attention to that as well as I want your
Speaker 1: advice to anyone out there that's potentially in a situation
Speaker 1: like that. There some is there something that I could
Speaker 1: have heard or anyone that has been in this could
Speaker 1: have heard that could have made us feel like there
Speaker 1: was a walkable path to get there sooner than we did.
Speaker 2: Yes, And I'm going to deliberately over simplify i M
Speaker 2: answer because anyone in this position is completely overwhelmed and
Speaker 2: has their nervous system triggered, and their inability to think
Speaker 2: or consider options is limited, if almost non existent. So
Speaker 2: my piece of advice, my first edict is tell a
Speaker 2: safe other, Tell a safe other. If you can just
Speaker 2: do that, If you can just do that, it opens
Speaker 2: up the door for your experience to be mirrored back
Speaker 2: to you as the reality of what it is, and
Speaker 2: for resources to begin to be curated.
Speaker 1: And also, can you please give the safe other who
Speaker 1: has somebody come to them and say that to them
Speaker 1: a great directive to help them because sometimes a lot
Speaker 1: of safe others don't know how to respond, and maybe
Speaker 1: we can help safe others out as well.
Speaker 2: So if you hear this information error on the side
Speaker 2: of believing and say that out loud.
Speaker 1: Say that again for the keep Seats doc.
Speaker 2: If you are the safe other, err on the side
Speaker 2: of believing and say it, I believe you and that
Speaker 2: is not okay. Those are the two things that you
Speaker 2: should say, I believe you. It is your right to notice,
Speaker 2: your right to say it's not okay, and then I
Speaker 2: will help you. And a safe other should not know
Speaker 2: how they should go about helping someone because it's not
Speaker 2: their area of expertise. But find someone who does. You
Speaker 2: talked to your primary care physician, Google therapist in your
Speaker 2: neck of the woods that specializes in domestic violence.
Speaker 1: Could someone do if they had no money and they
Speaker 1: had no healthcare and they had somebody that told them
Speaker 1: I believe you. But what it could be a next
Speaker 1: step for somebody that does not have access to a doctor,
Speaker 1: a primary care physician, or can afford to go to
Speaker 1: somebody that they google.
Speaker 2: In most cities, there are free or incredibly low fee
Speaker 2: clinics in most cities. If you're in a very rural
Speaker 2: part of the country that might not be true, but
Speaker 2: perhaps the safe Other can take you to the nearest one.
Speaker 2: So googling free and or a low fee clinic for
Speaker 2: mental health will get you in front of a provider
Speaker 2: or a clinician that can start to help you curate resources.
Speaker 2: There are safe houses also for domestic abuse survivors in
Speaker 2: various cities, again not in the smaller ones, but that's
Speaker 2: another thing that your safe other can help you find.
Speaker 2: Is there a resource locally or somewhere that you can
Speaker 2: commute to as a first step.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I have enjoyed this conversation with you,
Speaker 1: doctor Hillary so much. You're so impressive. Obviously you know that,
Speaker 1: but I think this was an important conversation to have
Speaker 1: for people out there that are very triggered by this
Speaker 1: or experiencing it personally, and for those of you who
Speaker 1: haven't to truly leave space for the stories that you
Speaker 1: will continue to hear during this trial and for those
Speaker 1: that you're hearing around you. Be that safe person for
Speaker 1: somebody and show up because this is something that really
Speaker 1: needs to start being mended on a larger scale. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much, doctor Hillary. Really appreciate you. Taking the
Speaker 1: time with me today to discuss this.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, and thanks for your bravery and
Speaker 2: sharing your story.
Speaker 1: All right, guys, tune into another episode of Amy and
Speaker 1: TJ presents Aubrey O'Day covering the Ditty Trial.