1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: Amy and TJ presents Aubrey Oday covering the Ditty trial. 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: Hey everyone, welcome back to Amy and TJ presents me 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: Aubrey O'Day covering the Didty trial. And as always, our 4 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: coverage of the Didty Trial continues. So I just want 5 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: to let everyone know that I'm flying solo today and 6 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: that TJ and Amya are on a much needed vacation, 7 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: and I can't wait to announce my guest today who 8 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: I'm so excited to speak to. Her name is doctor 9 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: Hillary Goldscher, and she is a clinical psychologist and expert 10 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: in trauma, recovery and emotional healing. She has over ten 11 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: years of experienced in psychotherapy services. She specializes in the 12 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: treatment of couples, relationships, depression, anxiety, trauma, grief, and eating disorders. Hillary, Girl, 13 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 1: I think I have experienced almost all of these, So 14 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: I am so happy to talk to you. 15 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 2: I got you, I got you. Thank you so much 16 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 2: for having me. 17 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: Thank you for being here. So I specifically felt very 18 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: passionate about discussing last week's testimony, in particular the forensic 19 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: psychologist Dohn Hughes. Let me first establish John Hughes testified 20 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: for the prosecution she testified to trauma, bonding, delayed reporting, 21 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: substance use as a coping mechanism. The Internet is buzzing 22 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: on this conversation. I think it's so important to establish 23 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: with you at the gate, why women stay with their 24 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: abusers as it pertains to the Ditty trial. 25 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the question that's sort of floating around 26 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 2: the culture right now. And while I'm disturbed and devastated 27 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 2: about the alleged crimes against the myriad of women involved, 28 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 2: on the sort of silver lining is that we get 29 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 2: to talk about this. 30 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 31 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 2: The question you just asked is complex, and a lot 32 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 2: of people, unfortunately, are having an opportunity to think through 33 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 2: this very nuanced paradigm. Because if you haven't been through it, 34 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 2: or you don't know someone who's been through it, it's 35 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 2: a fair enough question or a fair enough set of 36 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 2: complex factors that get one who is curious and trying 37 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 2: to understand this complex situation to ask why I don't 38 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 2: get it. Why would someone say when things are bad 39 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 2: and scared, yes, yes, that can lead to blaming the 40 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 2: victim or minimizing their trauma, and it's a really negative 41 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 2: vicious cycle for victims and for the paradigm of domestic abuse. 42 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 2: So I'm happy we're talking about it. So I have 43 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 2: a lot to say about why, So feel free to interrupt. 44 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: You can go for it. As I was listening to 45 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 1: her testimony, I found myself looking back on many of 46 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: my relationships and understanding many levels to all of her 47 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: conversation that she had in testimony that she had, including 48 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: utilizing sex as a love language for somebody who had 49 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: groomed and established with me that that's how I can 50 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: get his attention. So when text messages that say, hey, 51 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 1: I want more, I love you, I can't live without you, 52 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: let's make the next one more wild. This is making 53 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: so many people react in a way where they think, 54 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: clearly she wanted it, Clearly she's asking, Clearly she was willing, 55 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: and we all know that there are absolutely established events 56 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: that were not willing and that we're not wanted. But 57 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: for the ones that were during cross examination, I think 58 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: it's good to start breaking down why women do that 59 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: and how they find themselves in a position. Women and men, 60 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: by the way, because this isn't gender exclusive. 61 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 2: I'm really glad you pointed that out, because obviously there's 62 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 2: shame encircling men who are victims of domestic violence given 63 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 2: the full of male female roles that society establishes. 64 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: But you're right, and by the way, I want to 65 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: jump in with you there. When I first started this process, 66 00:03:55,120 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: when Homeland Security came to me, I knew more, potentially 67 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: knew more alleged male victims than women. And still potentially 68 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: you know alleged victims. I know more men than women. 69 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: It's so much harder. And when I hear them discuss 70 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: how what they fear in coming forward, it's a completely 71 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: different set of things than women do. But we know 72 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,679 Speaker 1: that what females face, which is what we're seeing right now, 73 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: which is a bunch of people calling you names and 74 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: making fun of the things that you would do in 75 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 1: private sexual behavior with your partner. And you know, you 76 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 1: can only imagine how much more complex it goes on 77 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 1: the other side and all of the stigmas that are 78 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: associated there. But I find that men even have a 79 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: harder time women have come out, and so it is 80 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: a little bit more of a conversation. But you do 81 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 1: know instantly when you come out, you likely the first 82 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: thing you will experience is being slatshamed and not believed. 83 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: If you're with somebody of a higher status, more power, 84 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: or more of a fan base or a liking. 85 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 2: Before I get into of the mapro buckets of why 86 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 2: people stay, I'll start where you ended, because shame is 87 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,559 Speaker 2: such a thematic reason why both men and women stay. 88 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 2: When one quote comes out via public or criminal accusation, 89 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 2: or just even telling their community that they've been involved 90 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 2: in a domestic abusive situation, there is deep rooted shame 91 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:30,919 Speaker 2: internalized because of their own inability to leave, their admission 92 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 2: that they stayed and endured abuse, and the potential reaction 93 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 2: of the community around them. 94 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: And let me stop with you on that. Right there, 95 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,239 Speaker 1: I was in an abusive relationship. I tried to tell 96 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: people in a very like on a larger level, and 97 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: the response from both the person that was involved in 98 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: it and the people around was if it was so bad, 99 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: then why did you stay? That to me was always 100 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: something that would make my blood boil, and I would 101 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: try to keep the more almost that you try to 102 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: explain that, the more they sit back and think that 103 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: you're full of it. It was so difficult for me 104 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: to explain. Nowadays, when I hear somebody say that, it's 105 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: an instant trigger for me to be like, oh, you're 106 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: definitely abusive, and she's definitely been abused. That line alone, 107 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: for me, is a tell. Now maybe it's not always 108 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: a tell, but for me, it's a pretty big tell. 109 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: And I hate that we're getting caught up in that 110 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: place because there's tons of different reasons. Please talk to 111 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: me about what they are and let let our audience 112 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: know what they are. There's no general trait of anyone victim. 113 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: I'm so different than other victims that I know, how 114 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: I grew up, racially, gender, all of the above. It's 115 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: just a way that you are, the way that you're groomed, 116 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: the process in which you fall for these people, and 117 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 1: you experience the abuse, it can trigger something in your 118 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 1: mind that almost creates this attachment through fear, through isolation. 119 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: For me, isolation was a big part of it. I 120 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: didn't have anybody to lean on, so discuss what those 121 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: factors are. 122 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 2: Ooh, you're so well versed, and I'm going to cover back. 123 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: Fortunately, you know, for those out there that don't understand this, 124 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: you know, I love that you have made very good 125 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: decisions for yourself and that you were able to avoid 126 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: these types of people in the world. But please make 127 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: space for the possibility that these things are very real 128 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: for other people. 129 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 2: Yes, that's a great foundation to lay forth as I 130 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 2: begin this discussion, which is for those who are listening 131 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: that haven't had this experience or don't know anyone in 132 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 2: their sphere that have, just have an open mind. It 133 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 2: is a complex notion, but take a listen to the 134 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 2: set of factors that can intersect that can result in 135 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 2: really strong, amazing women becoming victim over a very victims 136 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 2: over a very long period of time. So let's kind 137 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 2: of start on the macro. There are a number of 138 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: reasons and they usually pool together that result in women 139 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 2: or men staying in an abusive relationship, and they fall 140 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 2: on or the following categories. There may be more. I 141 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 2: might miss one or two, but these from my anecdotal, 142 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 2: empirical research and experience are the top ones, which are 143 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 2: psychological and emotional. We'll get into all of these logistical, financial, 144 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 2: physical safety. 145 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: Does the first one run into childhood trauma? 146 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 2: Yes, we're going to start there, right, psychological and emotional factors. 147 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 2: So often, not always, but often a victim of abuse 148 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: comes from a family and the details and the narrative 149 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 2: and the stories vary, the demographics, the socioeconomic status. But 150 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 2: at the core is some version of abandonment, some version 151 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 2: of an internalized sense of low self worth or low value, 152 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 2: and either an implicit or explicit edict to find a scenario, 153 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 2: a relationship, a partner that sort of confirms and of 154 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 2: firms that they're okay, that they're a value you, that 155 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 2: they're worthy, and if they stringed up with someone that 156 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 2: can provide that at times, but there's emotional and physical 157 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 2: rent to pay, through verbal abuse, through physical abuse. Sometimes 158 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 2: the person can't garner the internal resources to value their 159 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 2: emotional and physical safety over the sort of deposit of 160 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,079 Speaker 2: self worth that comes when the person chooses them, when 161 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 2: the person is kind to them, when the person is 162 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 2: bonded to them. And this is a complex psychological sort 163 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 2: of notion, but it boils down to pathologically low self worth. 164 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: And self worth also does not have a beauty standard. 165 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: There are a lot of people that look at Cassie 166 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: and don't understand how she could have ever had any 167 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: low self worth. She's a perfectly beautiful looking woman according 168 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 1: to social standards. But I do want to make clear 169 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: that you know I when I would experience it, it 170 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 1: was exactly what you said due to abandonment from childhood. 171 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: And even when I met Diddy relating this back to 172 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: Puff himself, he I've said this so many times, but 173 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: if you were to ask me now, who would you 174 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: want to revisit in your past? Of all the accomplishments 175 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: you've had, who's praise would you want to revisit that 176 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: made you feel the most full? And still at forty one, 177 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: after tons of fucking therapy and tons of feeling and 178 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: moving to Bali for two years and doing every little 179 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: thing that I possibly could, because talking to a person 180 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 1: and all of the other things just wasn't enough, I 181 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: still would say Puff. And that's because he's just so 182 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: I keep trying to really describe this to the viewers 183 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:49,479 Speaker 1: because it seems so unreasonable almost, but he's so all consuming. 184 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: I've only met a few very powerful people in life, 185 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: and I've met them all mostly that steal the air 186 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: out of the room. You almost have this palpable rea 187 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: like when they come in, because you're gasping for air 188 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: because their presence is so big. Now, in that case, 189 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: that's a very extreme case of somebody absorbing a room. 190 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: But I've met people on everyday levels that I can 191 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: see in their relationship are just exhausting all the air 192 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: in the room. It's the same type of feeling on 193 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: a large scale. But when Puff would be proud of 194 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: you and be impressed with you because he's so, he 195 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: rarely was. He mostly was very clear about all of 196 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: his dislikes and all the things that you weren't doing well, 197 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: and all the things that you needed to fix. And 198 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 1: it wasn't healthy language that was being used or healthy. 199 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,439 Speaker 1: It's grooming, is what it is. Putting us in scenarios 200 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: where our dreams are held over our heads and making 201 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 1: us do a ridiculous things in order to prove ourselves 202 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: time and time again. It was called reality TV, and 203 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: a network and a production and a whole bunch of 204 00:11:57,679 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: other people signed off on it and thought it was 205 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: fun and a great look for television. And unfortunately, I 206 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: think it is also part of the response. It needs 207 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: to take accountability for itself in regards to how many 208 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 1: people looked up at a television then and decided that 209 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: to be life as it is, to decided for that 210 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: to be an example for them in one way or another. 211 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: You were seeing this very powerful person. A lot of 212 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: people that were enamored by his presence, doing all kinds 213 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: of ridiculous shit, continuously having to prove themselves in ways 214 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: that are unreasonable, like run Central Park until two of 215 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: you fall and that's who's going home. These are unreasonable things. 216 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: I don't know any other artists that didn't grow up 217 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: under that situation that had to do that or was 218 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: expected to do that. 219 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,839 Speaker 2: Well, you're talking about is the power balance. Imbalance was 220 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 2: normalized and sanctioned and popular, right. 221 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: Popular, popular amongst people that wanted to watch it, or 222 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: I wouldn't ever returned for that many seasons because because 223 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: they can't keep a show on that no one wants 224 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:08,119 Speaker 1: to watch. As a society, we feed into such toxic narratives, 225 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,319 Speaker 1: and those narratives play out right in front of us 226 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: on our televisions. The way that I saw that I 227 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: returned back to a healthy state was I had to 228 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: disconnect from this country. I had to leave and go 229 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: to another country and live there and disconnect socials and 230 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: everything and get out of the way of the way 231 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: that we are socialized. And nowadays our phones are our currency. 232 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: Your content is your life if you're in entertainment. We 233 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: have such an addiction to these devices that are truly 234 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: giving us a lot of unhealthy messages. So what do 235 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:47,839 Speaker 1: you advise to people who are seeing shows on television 236 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: or seeing articles on their phones without you know, we've 237 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: had discussions on this show about headlines and narrating people's 238 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: lives without any proof or reaching out to find out 239 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: if anything is fast actual, just blanket making statements that 240 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: aren't even true. What is your opinion for those people 241 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: that are so lost in that toxic cycle that they 242 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: could be definitely in a position to be I think 243 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: what it is personally is creating an identity for people. 244 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: When you're depending on those sources for an identity, you 245 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: could end up on a pretty bad path in life. 246 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a big ask for people to disconnect from 247 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 2: their affiliation around those narratives. It's seductive, very seductive. 248 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: Is that all it takes? Seduction? 249 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 2: Well, I mean it intersects with a number of factors, right, 250 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 2: probably anxiety, restlessness, boredom, low self worth. Right, Imbibing those 251 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 2: headlines and becoming attached to those narratives offers us a 252 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 2: version of a dopamine hit. Right, It's an escape from 253 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 2: our own reality and gives us sometimes an opportunity to 254 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 2: be righteous. And judge, which can give us an avenue 255 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 2: to escape from our own. 256 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: Pain and give you a high to be able to 257 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: be somebody that knows better. You're getting a little bit 258 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: of a serotonin boost almost. 259 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 2: That's right. 260 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: Question for people out there that are trying to get 261 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: out of a toxic situation or out of a situation 262 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: where they're being abused. I have a lot of people 263 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: writing me right now that are inside of abusive relationships, 264 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: and I see the spiral. I don't have quick advice. 265 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 2: Let me do a quick summary of why people are there, 266 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 2: and then we'll go into how do you begin to 267 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 2: even think about extracting? So we talked about that emotional 268 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 2: psychological factor briefly, and I could do hours about this 269 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 2: because it's highly complex. Not everyone who's had abandonment in 270 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 2: their childhood end up abuse of relationships, of course that's true. 271 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 2: But people who end up in abusive relationships often have 272 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 2: this as a background, yes, And so that's one of 273 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 2: the aspects that we more often than not see. The 274 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 2: other we address briefly, which is guilt and shame, the 275 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 2: internalized guilt for being someone that would subject themselves to 276 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 2: these dynamics and allow themselves to be a victim are overwhelming, 277 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 2: can cause emotional paralysis, what we call a severe collapse response, 278 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 2: where you're literally internally and physically in a fetal position, 279 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 2: unable to think, unable to act. The entire nervous system 280 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 2: shuts down, goes into a fight or flight solely because 281 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 2: of the shame, let alone the emotional and physical abuse 282 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 2: you may be enduring. So it's not just a decision 283 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 2: should I stay or should I go. The body goes 284 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 2: into an absolute trauma mode in a fight or flight state, 285 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 2: and we have courts, all the stress worm on running 286 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 2: for our body. We have adrenaline running for our body, 287 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 2: which is ane and what does that do? That, amongst 288 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 2: other things, disallows us to access our full frontal lobe 289 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 2: and make good decisions and use our full judgment. So 290 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 2: that is absolutely part of the reason that people are 291 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 2: unable to curate resources to go. The other we talked 292 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 2: about briefly at the top was logistical. Some people literally 293 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 2: have nowhere to go? Where am I going? 294 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: And if users do a good job of isolating you 295 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: away from your finances, such as you know Cassie. Cassie's case, 296 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: there were allegedly laptops taken away, her car taken away. 297 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 1: At those levels, you see things like that. At smaller levels, 298 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: your abuser could see something minor that you had a 299 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: little flaw about and pick at it. 300 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, that's right. Break you down your confidence 301 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 2: and your sense of agency and mastery and feel unable 302 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 2: to do anything by telling victims that they're stupid or 303 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,360 Speaker 2: incapable and beating them down day after day after day, 304 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 2: so that even if the fat pattern isn't true, the 305 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,719 Speaker 2: woman is absolutely capable. She internalizes is that she's not, 306 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 2: So you're right, logistic, she'll often go together. I have 307 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 2: nowhere to go. I have no ability to make money, 308 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 2: and intersects with that first tendant, which is shame if 309 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,439 Speaker 2: I because people listening might say, well, go to your 310 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 2: best friend, go to your mom, go to your pastor 311 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 2: go to your therapist. That shame piece. I'm so ashamed 312 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 2: for how badly I feel about myself or allowing myself 313 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,479 Speaker 2: to be in this position. My fight or flight system 314 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 2: has been triggered. I'm paralyzed. I can't do. 315 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 1: Anything, and also paralyzed feeling. For me when I was 316 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: in it was so significant that I don't think I 317 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 1: could have gone to Google and found a therapist and 318 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: waited for an appointment and gotten in when they could 319 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: see me. That sometimes could take a month, depending on 320 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 1: where you're at or what your access is. In the 321 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: exact moments when I was that shut down, I mean, 322 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 1: I had points where he would lock me outside of 323 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: the house to punish me if there was something I 324 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 1: did that he didn't like, and I would ring the doorbell, 325 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: he would undo the wiring, and so the doorbell wasn't 326 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: working anymore, which I didn't realize at the time, but 327 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 1: through pattern of therapy, I realized a parent of mine 328 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: had done that to me in childhood. And then when 329 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: I would sit outside, I would realize, like, he has 330 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: me out here in next to nothing for clothing, so 331 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: I can't go running around the neighborhood looking like this, 332 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 1: I'm stuck. He's like, I'm being punished. And the only 333 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 1: way for me through the punishments were a drug that 334 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 1: I was given by somebody senior that made me be 335 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: able to go to sleep and forget about everything, called 336 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: ambient Yes. And so you know, in Cassie's state there 337 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: there was a lot of access to a lot of 338 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: different drugs, but I knew that without and sometimes I'd 339 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: be without my phone. The only thing that I would 340 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: bag for and I would need in any of those 341 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: settings was enough ambient to sleep and forget and wake 342 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: up and try again. And sometimes it took multiple times. 343 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: Sometimes I was out there overnight, but I would do 344 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 1: my best. And people would never believe this coming from me, 345 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: because they tend to see me as such a confident person. 346 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: I do not even understand how I got there. 347 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 2: Oh, Aubrey, I'm so so sorry to hear this. I'm 348 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,959 Speaker 2: having a visceral reaction to that experience. 349 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: Me too, just thinking, so I've shed that person so 350 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: many times, all the layers of that human I don't 351 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: I ache for her. 352 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 2: I do too, And if you don't mind, I'll use 353 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 2: your experience to elucidate what we're talking about, which is 354 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 2: so in that moment, the intersection of factors, right, you 355 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 2: feel choiceless, resourceless, your body's in fight or flight. You're 356 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 2: completely paralyzed. You may even have what I alluded to before, 357 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,159 Speaker 2: which is a SEVERER response collapse, which is actually a 358 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 2: phenomenon where you basically go into a primitive state, a 359 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 2: completely regressed state, where you. 360 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 1: Can on the floor. I was on the floor, asked 361 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: for water. It was in a dog bowl. 362 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 2: I'm devastated for you. I'm devastated, and I really appreciate 363 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 2: your vulnerability for saying this out loud, because it's it's 364 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 2: a horrifying truth, and yet maybe helps viewers and listeners 365 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 2: understand that someone is resilient and strong and you know, 366 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 2: sort of together as you are, and a peer can 367 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 2: have an intersection of factors occur where they've wind up 368 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 2: in this position. The other unique thing that happens in 369 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 2: abusive situations that I think is confusing people as they 370 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 2: listen to the trial, and you've briefly alluded to in 371 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 2: your own experience, is this pull to reunite with the abuser. Right, so, 372 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 2: even in that moment, I would imagine all you wanted 373 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 2: was for him to come and get you and tell 374 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 2: you you were in good standing again. And so what 375 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 2: is this? What is this that we want the abuser 376 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 2: to say, No, actually, I pick you, I choose you, 377 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 2: and can come back inside metaphorically and literally come back 378 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,239 Speaker 2: in my in the fold. This and I believe this 379 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,719 Speaker 2: was discussed on the stand by doctor Hughes. This is 380 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 2: the well known but like overused notion of trauma bonding, 381 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 2: and let me say a little more about it, because 382 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 2: I think people use it so casually these days that 383 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 2: it doesn't capture what it's meant to from a clinical standpoint. 384 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 2: But trauma bonding is around the notion that abuse often 385 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 2: follows a cycle right where there's tension building, the victim 386 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,400 Speaker 2: is trying to please and please and please. The explosion happens, 387 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 2: and the intense abuse occurs, whether it's physical or emotional, 388 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 2: mental or both, and then there's the pull for the 389 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:24,199 Speaker 2: victim to reunite. It's essentially getting they're fill of nutrients, 390 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 2: their lifeline. When am I going to get brought back 391 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 2: to life? They feel like they're choiceless, optionless, there's no 392 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 2: other resources or connection or people available because of all 393 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 2: the things I just said. 394 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: Or their most important self exists within being with that man. 395 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 2: That's right, And so that pull to get reconnected and 396 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 2: get back in the honeymoon period, which is almost always 397 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 2: part of what happens after an enormous explosion. The abuser 398 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 2: feels some degree of shame and guilt and will shower 399 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 2: the victim with all the things that make them feel love, 400 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 2: whether it's tangible goods or. 401 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: Oh man, I came home to the brand new phone. 402 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,959 Speaker 1: There was a display. I posted it to show how 403 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: much I was loved. Yes, I just didn't see all 404 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: the things that I had to go through to get 405 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 1: to that day. 406 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 2: Yes. And so for someone going back to our original 407 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 2: discussion round abandonment and early childhood trauma, getting that honeymoon 408 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 2: and that sort of deluge of the showing of love 409 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 2: and affection is so compelling and seductive. That's part it's 410 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 2: not the only reason, but that's part of why the 411 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 2: cycle stays intact. And that intermittent reinforcement of love and 412 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 2: cruelty creates a powerful emotional dependency. 413 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: Yes, stronger than drugs. I wish it could have been 414 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: easier than drugs. It's stronger than drugs to get over. 415 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: If you watch intervention now, put that times five billion. 416 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: That's what somebody who was in an abusive, toxic cycle 417 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: times five billion is trying to recover from. It's so difficult. 418 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: I remember, even I did everything, and I mean I 419 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: would separate, I would get with people, I would get 420 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,239 Speaker 1: into therapy. I luckily have a best friend who's a 421 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: therapist who would connect me back in and I sat 422 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: with a therapist in LA that was like, you know, 423 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,360 Speaker 1: off insurance five hundred and fifty bucks an hour. She's, 424 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: you know, a therapist to all the celebrities, and she 425 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: would have known exactly what it was. I found myself 426 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: with therapists a lot of times that didn't that I 427 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 1: could see looking at the clock, or that I could 428 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: see didn't truly haven't. They would go like wow, really 429 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 1: like they couldn't understand just what I went through with 430 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: Diddy because it was I was talking in such extremes. 431 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: I could see their level of shock, and I realized, like, oh, 432 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:41,919 Speaker 1: I can't even take them past this point. They're not 433 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 1: going to be able to understand it. And then I 434 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 1: noticed when I went to this woman that I spent 435 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: all of this money and she would give me these 436 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: gems and I would leave and I would feel confident 437 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: on my drive home from Malibu. The whole time I 438 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 1: knew it. But by the time six or seven or 439 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 1: eight rolled around, and my abandonment sunk again, and my loneliness, 440 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 1: and because being in this industry and being a celebrity 441 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 1: is super isolating in general, I start to want that 442 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: feeling of what I thought it was is my best 443 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: friend back, my happiest highest self was when we were connected. 444 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: It was the most it felt like it felt like 445 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: somebody loved me for real, not like a fan's telling 446 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: me I love you all over the place that never 447 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: resonated as real to me. So I remember getting running 448 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: right back to him, and I remember getting in the 449 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: car out of the airport and him laughing and saying 450 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 1: to me, look at my brand new watch, Babe. It 451 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: costs as much money, babe. Look at babe, I have 452 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: a new role as babe. You spent all that money 453 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: on therapy and I got a new watch, babe, But 454 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: you're still here with me, babe. Hamp babe, good choice, babe. 455 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: And I remember thinking to myself, It's true. I have 456 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: spent as much money as that watches trying to get 457 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: over this person. And at the end of the day, 458 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: a therapist cannot They can guide you to the water, 459 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: but you have to drink, which is why I ended 460 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,679 Speaker 1: up going to ball and getting out and trying other 461 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: sources to check in with myself. Mostly the disconnection was 462 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 1: the important part, but I had to get out of 463 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 1: it somehow, and therapy was just not working enough because 464 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: they can only tell you as much as they can 465 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 1: tell you, but you have to want the change, and 466 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: you have to be able to make the change when 467 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: you leave there. You can feel so empowered in the sessions, 468 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 1: but I found and that's for anybody that maybe is 469 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: in therapy, feeling that power and then leaving and going 470 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: right back. I found myself doing that for years. 471 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 2: Yes, well, you're highlighting a really significant aspect of this, 472 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 2: which is the addictive nature. And I'm not using that 473 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,360 Speaker 2: term in quotes. I'm talking about science, chemistry, what happens 474 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 2: in the brain. And we alluded to this earlier. But 475 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 2: just like when you use drugs or drink or gamble, 476 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 2: et cetera. And there's I'm sort of oversimplifying it, but 477 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 2: there's a version of a dopamine and a serotonin hit, 478 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 2: which is the feel good chemical inside of us. The 479 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 2: exact same thing happens during the reunification process with an abuser. 480 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 2: For all of the reasons that I was just describing 481 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 2: and more that we can go into if we find 482 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 2: the time, but it is the same process. And so 483 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 2: you're talking about literal detox I don't mean detalks and quotes. 484 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 2: You're talking about in part to truly get away from 485 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 2: an abusive relationship, you have to detox, which means you 486 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,160 Speaker 2: have to be away from the person, and whatever that takes, 487 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,159 Speaker 2: whether it's moving to another country or some curation of 488 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 2: resources amongst your community, can change from scenario to scenario, 489 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,680 Speaker 2: of course, but that's what you're talking about. And in 490 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,360 Speaker 2: the absence of true detox ie, not being with the person, 491 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 2: you're not going to be able to truly go away. 492 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 2: Why because your brain will seek the hit of the 493 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 2: serotonin dopamine time and time again in a very similar 494 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 2: way that an attic does. And so conceptualizing that way 495 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 2: first helps people understand as they're observing and thinking about 496 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 2: it from the outside, but also it helps people in 497 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 2: it perhaps think about resources in a different way. Who 498 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,199 Speaker 2: specializes in this arena is going to be very useful. 499 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 2: But the curation of resources to help with removal, yesation 500 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 2: has to be incredibly robust, which I don't want to 501 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:24,439 Speaker 2: end our time together. I know we're not almost done, 502 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 2: but without saying this, which is the final book, critical 503 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 2: piece that I'm thinking about around why people stay is 504 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 2: the fear of retaliation. 505 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 1: And that's huge with Cassie. 506 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 2: Keep going, Yes, Empirically, empirically, data statistics The most dangerous 507 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 2: period for abuse victims is when they're thinking about leaving, 508 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 2: When they leave, and in the aftermath. 509 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: The aftermath is a big one that we don't talk 510 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: about enough. The aftermath. You know, you can't get those 511 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: highs anymore, so you're dependent on You got to find 512 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: something for the high or you've got to be ripe 513 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: and ready for and change is not an easy thing 514 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: to just snap your fingers and go to. As you 515 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: get older, you learn that you have more control over 516 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: your brain than you think. But when you're younger and 517 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: you're still learning, I would look around anywhere and everywhere 518 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: for it. And unfortunately, specifically in Cassie's case, there were 519 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: so many things that there were so many addictions around 520 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: her that she had many things to overcome. It seems 521 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: like everybody's found had to find ways outside of puff 522 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: to move into, places to move into that would provide 523 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: their sense of self any more sense of self meaning 524 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: you can wake up and feel joy and happiness just 525 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: within yourself. 526 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 2: So you're talking about two pieces. One is the internal 527 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 2: risk of the victim once they leave recklessly searching for 528 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 2: that high. 529 00:29:55,200 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: Yes, for anyone that didn't understand what she had to 530 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: say in regards to being in fear of him, or 531 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: they didn't believe it, you can believe it after kid 532 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: Cutty's testimony. Those are two different people and the result 533 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: of both the two different statuses, two different relationships with 534 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: the man, and yet the common denominator and all of 535 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: it is force violence, extreme violence, and people not even 536 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: coming forward and wanting to tell on the person or 537 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: create a proper trail amongst the public of the events 538 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: and the behaviors out of fear of retaliation. So it 539 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: existed on all levels with him. Now, I want to 540 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,479 Speaker 1: take you through before we finish the cross examination, so 541 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: we could kind of go over the way that the 542 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: defense team is kind of using a multi prong strategy 543 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: in regards to obviously the denial of the allegations they've 544 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: categorically denied them or learning I don't know, not so true. 545 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: They are attacking her credibility. We've seen that on the stand. 546 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: We've seen that with multiple witnesses, financial motivations, career opportunities, inconsistencies, 547 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: and testimony, continuing to seek the relationship with puff after 548 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: you've already gone over. While all of those would occur specifically, 549 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: a lot of people have issues with Don Hughes. What 550 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: are your thoughts on that she kind of got beaten 551 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: up during the Amber Johnny trial that left all of 552 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: us sitting on the edge of our seats because there 553 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: was such an admiration for Johnny Depp. Anyone that was 554 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: explaining her behavior that they, you know, some people felt 555 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: was didn't come off as sincere. Don Hughes took a 556 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: lot of heat when trying to explain that they have 557 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: made the criticism, specifically in this case, that she did 558 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: not interview Cassie, she did not interview Ditty, she has 559 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 1: not sat down with anyone involved in this, and she 560 00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: does not know their personal records, health records, mental health records. 561 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: Is there some kind of is there something to say 562 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: for that defense, for that specific defense, Yeah, I. 563 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 2: Mean I don't think we can out of hand dismiss 564 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 2: the truth that she didn't directly interview the victim or 565 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 2: the alleged perpetrator. 566 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: Would you be able to believe her in your profession 567 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: even if she hadn't done that. 568 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 2: It's common practice. It happens all the time. I mean, 569 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 2: if you didn't know that, if you look at many 570 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 2: cases that are not high profile, there is often not always, 571 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 2: but often an expert brought in who has not had 572 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 2: access to anyone on the defense or anyone in the 573 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 2: prosecution side. So it's an argument that is utilized often, 574 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 2: and so it makes sense the defense would raise it, 575 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 2: and in my opinion, you would stipulate to that. Absolutely. 576 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 2: I'm not trying to suggest I have rights or the 577 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 2: alleged perpetrator. I clearly have not. And just like myself, 578 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 2: if you have expertise clinically anecdotally over many, many decades. 579 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: You know you can you can have an educated opinion 580 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: on what's going on here, No question. They did say 581 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: she's only ever worked with victims, never with the abusers themselves, 582 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: so to get a full fair perspective of both sides, 583 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: they feel that would have been necessary. Do you agree 584 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: with that or no? 585 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 2: Again, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand as a truth, 586 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 2: but most, not all, but most clinicians that specialize in 587 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 2: domestic violence, and clinicians might might comment that this isn't 588 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 2: true for them, But most, if not many, either treat 589 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 2: victims or perpetrators and don't necessarily treat both. 590 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: Because that why is that I would want a full perspective, 591 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: almost to if there is any saving grace on an 592 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: abuser's side, which, listen, I'm not a psychologist, so I 593 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: can say what everybody thinks. That sounds like bullshit to me. 594 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 1: But if I'm being fair and I'm wanting to stay 595 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: as professional as possible, I'd want to hear both sides 596 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: out and understand the mentality. I don't know that we 597 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: need to understand the mentality of an abuser, but is 598 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: there something to that. 599 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 2: I mean, there's sort of a professional reason, which is 600 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 2: less interesting that when you have areas of expertise, you 601 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:19,280 Speaker 2: become hyper focused on that particular area. So if you're 602 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 2: an expert in working with domestic violence victims, you just 603 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 2: do a deep dive into that particular population, and how 604 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 2: you would treat them and conceptualize those cases would be 605 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 2: wildly different than how you would treat and conceptualize the 606 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 2: case of an abuser. So some of it is just 607 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 2: sort of professional trajectory and really focusing on a particular 608 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 2: area of expertise, which many clinicians do, including myself, on 609 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 2: various topics. Like a clinician might say, I'm an expert 610 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 2: in trauma and that's sort of all I do. I 611 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 2: don't really do specifically depression anxiety, even though those are 612 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 2: aspects of trauma, for example. So it's not unheard of 613 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 2: in my world to focus on one or two arenas 614 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,839 Speaker 2: and have it be your area of focus. You, as 615 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 2: a clinician treating victims have besides someone who only treats 616 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 2: or also treats perpetrators or alleged perpetrators, You have as 617 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:20,760 Speaker 2: much insight as possible relative to the normal practitioner into 618 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 2: the world of and the patterns of abusers. So while 619 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 2: you might not work directly with them, you have a 620 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 2: lot of anecdotal and clinical data from your work with victims, 621 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 2: or collaborative efforts with all of the people involved. 622 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: Or even your overall understanding of abuse in general. You 623 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,760 Speaker 1: maybe don't even have to specifically work with either side 624 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: and your profession. You have enough information to understand the patterns, 625 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 1: and unfortunately, what people don't realize is these patterns are 626 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: pretty common and pretty standard and pretty repetitive when it 627 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: comes to every case. There are certain things that thread 628 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: through even that if you feel two cases are completely different. 629 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,759 Speaker 1: Now question, is it possible that somebody could make up 630 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 1: and lie about everything that they're experiencing and an abuser 631 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: could be wrongly accused. Do you see that happening a 632 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: lot or is it very rare? 633 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 2: I would say it's somewhere in the middle. I don't 634 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 2: think it happens a lot in like clinical and anecdotal experience. 635 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:21,919 Speaker 2: That's quite a thing to put yourself through to come 636 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 2: out as a victim and have it not be true. 637 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 2: And there are other psychological factors going on. If that's 638 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 2: the case, it's not unheard of. It hasn't never played 639 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,959 Speaker 2: out double negative, but so it occurs less than occasionally 640 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 2: a pretty small amount, very small amount. And in this case, 641 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 2: in the ditty case, there is a myriad of it 642 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 2: appears of collaborating evidence that's been submitted in court in 643 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 2: terms of eyewitnesses and texts and videos, etc. That suggests 644 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,799 Speaker 2: this isn't the case, But yes, it has a. 645 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:05,279 Speaker 1: Before Okay, So question, last question for anyone out there 646 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: right now, if I could revisit many me and anyone 647 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: out there that is currently in this in this situation, 648 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 1: or they're identifying or feeling very triggered by what they're seeing, obviously, 649 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,840 Speaker 1: in my opinion, I would suggest look around you and 650 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: see how recognizable the things you're seeing in front of 651 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: you or looking at in front of you, if they're 652 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 1: mirroring anything that you're experiencing currently around you, even people 653 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 1: that speak about it in a certain way, I would 654 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: pay attention to that as well as I want your 655 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 1: advice to anyone out there that's potentially in a situation 656 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 1: like that. There some is there something that I could 657 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: have heard or anyone that has been in this could 658 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,839 Speaker 1: have heard that could have made us feel like there 659 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: was a walkable path to get there sooner than we did. 660 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 2: Yes, And I'm going to deliberately over simplify i M 661 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 2: answer because anyone in this position is completely overwhelmed and 662 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 2: has their nervous system triggered, and their inability to think 663 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 2: or consider options is limited, if almost non existent. So 664 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 2: my piece of advice, my first edict is tell a 665 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 2: safe other, Tell a safe other. If you can just 666 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,760 Speaker 2: do that, If you can just do that, it opens 667 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,399 Speaker 2: up the door for your experience to be mirrored back 668 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 2: to you as the reality of what it is, and 669 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 2: for resources to begin to be curated. 670 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: And also, can you please give the safe other who 671 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,240 Speaker 1: has somebody come to them and say that to them 672 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: a great directive to help them because sometimes a lot 673 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: of safe others don't know how to respond, and maybe 674 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: we can help safe others out as well. 675 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 2: So if you hear this information error on the side 676 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,080 Speaker 2: of believing and say that out loud. 677 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 1: Say that again for the keep Seats doc. 678 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,800 Speaker 2: If you are the safe other, err on the side 679 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:13,399 Speaker 2: of believing and say it, I believe you and that 680 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 2: is not okay. Those are the two things that you 681 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:20,320 Speaker 2: should say, I believe you. It is your right to notice, 682 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 2: your right to say it's not okay, and then I 683 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:28,319 Speaker 2: will help you. And a safe other should not know 684 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 2: how they should go about helping someone because it's not 685 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 2: their area of expertise. But find someone who does. You 686 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 2: talked to your primary care physician, Google therapist in your 687 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 2: neck of the woods that specializes in domestic violence. 688 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,279 Speaker 1: Could someone do if they had no money and they 689 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,839 Speaker 1: had no healthcare and they had somebody that told them 690 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: I believe you. But what it could be a next 691 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: step for somebody that does not have access to a doctor, 692 00:39:56,239 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 1: a primary care physician, or can afford to go to 693 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 1: somebody that they google. 694 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 2: In most cities, there are free or incredibly low fee 695 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,360 Speaker 2: clinics in most cities. If you're in a very rural 696 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,799 Speaker 2: part of the country that might not be true, but 697 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,840 Speaker 2: perhaps the safe Other can take you to the nearest one. 698 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 2: So googling free and or a low fee clinic for 699 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 2: mental health will get you in front of a provider 700 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,879 Speaker 2: or a clinician that can start to help you curate resources. 701 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 2: There are safe houses also for domestic abuse survivors in 702 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 2: various cities, again not in the smaller ones, but that's 703 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 2: another thing that your safe other can help you find. 704 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 2: Is there a resource locally or somewhere that you can 705 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 2: commute to as a first step. 706 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I have enjoyed this conversation with you, 707 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: doctor Hillary so much. You're so impressive. Obviously you know that, 708 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: but I think this was an important conversation to have 709 00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: for people out there that are very triggered by this 710 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:04,080 Speaker 1: or experiencing it personally, and for those of you who 711 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: haven't to truly leave space for the stories that you 712 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 1: will continue to hear during this trial and for those 713 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,279 Speaker 1: that you're hearing around you. Be that safe person for 714 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: somebody and show up because this is something that really 715 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:25,239 Speaker 1: needs to start being mended on a larger scale. Thank 716 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,759 Speaker 1: you so much, doctor Hillary. Really appreciate you. Taking the 717 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,359 Speaker 1: time with me today to discuss this. 718 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,359 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, and thanks for your bravery and 719 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:33,360 Speaker 2: sharing your story. 720 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 1: All right, guys, tune into another episode of Amy and 721 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: TJ presents Aubrey O'Day covering the Ditty Trial.